Guild Wars 2

ZudetGambeous.9573:

These threads are getting old.

Get ascended gear or don’t play the content. You had 3 YEARS, suck it up or leave.

/thread

Congratulations, you are the problem!

shion.2084:

I’m not sure how there can really be much discussion about this.

Because this is a forum, a place for people to air their concerns and issues and present them as feedback. I am concerned about this, and the fact that you aren’t doesn’t make my point invalid.

Andred.1087:

So much salt, I love it when people whine about “grind” when you can literally do anything in-game that gives decent loot and get your ascended gear in a few months’ time, just with a couple hours a day. Top-tier gear doesn’t just fall out of the sky!

And this game is explicitly supposed to NOT be about gear tiers.

I’m not asking to do everything. Keep your raids. I’m asking to have something to do, in an ongoing fashion.

(And no, adventure camping and old map bonuses are not what I’m asking about. Beating my own time in a minigame is NOT ongoing content, nor is event grinding in stuff we already have.)

Vayne.8563:

Unless you get an ascended weapon from beating Tequatl, in which case, top tier gear did just fall out of the sky….just saying lol.

Or a random ascended weapon drop in a fractal. Or a precurser, ever. Top tier gear does in fact drop from the sky on rare occasions, but as it’s not expected to be how one gears up on purpose, that’s really beside the point.

Coulter.2315:

If you’ve not been bothered to do high end pve for 2 years (probably haven’t done Fractal 50 with zero Ascended) then why the QQ? You don’t even like this content.

Good question, and precisely relevant to my main point.

You are correct in that I don’t like it. Or more specifically, I don’t like the model that you have to spend a bunch of time and gold doing un-fun grindy things in order to be able to do what’s meant to be the fun stuff. That sort of thing is the core of many RPG’s, and a big part of why I play GW2 is that it’s (at least nominally) based on a different philosophy, that games should be fun to play. The phrase they keep using in their marketing as what they want to avoid is “waiting to have fun”.

It’s not true that I have zero ascended, but I don’t have much, mostly because I don’t have a main. I have eight characters, and I can’t stand to play the same one all the time. If I have to invest heavily in one to be able to do the “fun” stuff, I can’t switch things up, and that kills it for me. Requiring ascended to do new content is a problem for me, not because I can’t get my hands on ANY, but because I can’t afford to gear the character that would be fun to try it with.

My original question could be rephrased as, “Is so-called ‘high-end’ (gear-gated) PvE the only type of activity that’s getting ongoing dev time after HoT release? That’s the impression I’m getting from the marketing releases, and as someone who believes in GW2’s mission statement, it worries me.”

Cdoto.4920:

Andred.1087:

So much salt, I love it when people whine about “grind” when you can literally do anything in-game that gives decent loot and get your ascended gear in a few months’ time, just with a couple hours a day. Top-tier gear doesn’t just fall out of the sky!

And this game is explicitly supposed to NOT be about gear tiers.

Why did it release with the following gear tiers then?

• Basic
• Fine
• Masterwork
• Rare
• Exotic

Also from GW1:

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Item_rarity

The vast majority of the content within this game doesn’t have a need for a specific tier of gear. Almost everything can be completed in blues.

Players wanted challenging content and it’s very difficult to do that if you make it so that all tiers of gear can complete it. If players in blues and beat a specific piece of content, while find it very challenging, how challenging do you think it would be for those in exotics and ascended?

ZudetGambeous.9573:

These threads are getting old.

Get ascended gear or don’t play the content. You had 3 YEARS, suck it up or leave.

/thread

We’ve had 3 years of being told and assured that ascended was a totally optional grind for those treadmill fans who wanted a tail to chase.

Now, content with desirable rewards are being balanced around it.
Pardon me for feeling just a bit lied to.

We aren’t asking for it to be handed to us, as I know that’s the first fallacious argument that gets thrown at us when we make this argument.
Nothing wrong with the content being challenging.
And it could be just as challenging without needing the asinine gear grind first.

So here’s the crux of the problem.
For 3 years we’ve been told that the stat difference was insignificant, and not needed for anyone who didn’t want to pursue it, and stuff was balanced around exotics.

Now we ask, hey wait a second, why can’t it simply be balanced around exotic?
And the answer we get is that if it were balanced around exotic that would make it trivial for anyone in ascended.
But that makes no logical sense. If the stat difference was insignificant then it couldn’t possibly trivialize the content.
If, therefor, the difference can trivialize the content then it cannot, in point of fact, be insignificant can it?

The difference is insignificant and won’t make any tangible difference.
The difference is significant enough to trivialize content.

We are being told both of these things.
They cannot possible both be true, as they are mutually exclusive realities.

Which means one of them is a lie.

The only reasons to balance around ascended instead of exotic have nothing to do with difficulty then. And the challenge has nothing to do with skill.
It is to massively inflate play time.

To make people feel better about having ground out so much ascended “I grinded for all this ascended and its not needed for anything I do so I demand content be geared around my inflated numbers so I can feel better about myself and justify feeling better than the filthy casual plebs who don’t have it”

To stroke the egos of the elitists, “this content is so hard and requires so much skill you have to have ascended to do it, cause such big numbers!!11”

To cater to the elitist crowd who wants to keep the filthy casual plebs from even getting in the door. Cause that somehow means they have super duper awesome skillz.

Hard content, actually challenging content, is supposed to be about skill, not who can buy more gear on daddy’s credit card, or spend more hours grinding working to maybe someday possibly have fun.

Cdoto.4920:

My original question could be rephrased as, “Is so-called ‘high-end’ (gear-gated) PvE the only type of activity that’s getting ongoing dev time after HoT release? That’s the impression I’m getting from the marketing releases, and as someone who believes in GW2’s mission statement, it worries me.”

Then 1) it isn’t gear-gated (I’ve explained this A LOT, Ascended Armour is +20 Primary Stat and +16 Secondary Stat i.e. irrelevant) and 2) I still think LS3 will be part of GW2’s future – but I don’t have more than an impression (but then neither do you).

Andred.1087:

So much salt, I love it when people whine about “grind” when you can literally do anything in-game that gives decent loot and get your ascended gear in a few months’ time, just with a couple hours a day.

Hmm,

I have been doing stuff that would fall under the umbrella of that claim of, “anything that gives decent loot,” and yet, after a period of going on three years, have only one ascended weapon and two pieces of armor. I do have ascended trinkets however.

Perhaps you are mistaken.

If raids actually require ascended gear to complete, and I’m not yet convinced they will, but say they do, then this is no different a situation than every other regular MMO out there where you need to grind a specific set of gear in order to participate in a particular activity.

It’s all very WoW-esque or whatever. Or like radiance gear in LOTRO. Course, we’ve already had this phenom with fractals and agony. The obvious intent including everyone getting comfortable with the whole gear mill idea, so it can be expanded on in the future.

I think everyone liked the idea of GW2 being “different” and in some ways it is, but it’s also becoming more and more homogenous with other standard MMOs as time goes by, where a gear treadmill, raiding, tank/healer/DPS, etc. are becoming more pervasive.

I’m not sure who Anet is marketing to. I’ve had the game since launch and I dont have full ascended anything.

I just crafted an ascended scepter and the cost was incredible.

it was over 100 gold worth of materials. Seeing as I make around 2-4 gold an hour if I’m lucky. That equates 30 hours of play. That’s a full month of gaming if I only play gw2 in exclusion to anything else.

Instead of forcing players to get higher stat gear because monsters have higher stats, make the monsters smarter and implement character collision, so people cant stack. This way normal and casual gamers can still have fun by “playing smarter” instead of “grinding longer”

Celtic Lady.3729:

If raids actually require ascended gear to complete, and I’m not yet convinced they will, but say they do, then this is no different a situation than every other regular MMO out there where you need to grind a specific set of gear in order to participate in a particular activity.

Except that those games do Raid content so much better it’s not even funny.

I know it was a beta but people beat the first boss in less than 24 hours of release.

Unless they make them much, MUCH harder people will demolish this content and the areas will become ghost towns as folks get the skins and legendary armor they want.

The other option is vastly reduce the drop rate of rewards to slow down acquisition and that will kill it completely in much less time

If Anet is going to shoot their own kitten off and try to lock instanced content behind grind barriers and not through genuinely harder content, people will just leave for games that do a much better job of it.

Raiding has the possibility of being a genuinely good way to bring in people not satisfied with what GW2 has to offer right now. If Anet decides to instead make it a pale imitation of what other games do, those people are likely to stay right where they are.

Ayrilana.1396:

The vast majority of the content within this game doesn’t have a need for a specific tier of gear. Almost everything can be completed in blues.

Players wanted challenging content and it’s very difficult to do that if you make it so that all tiers of gear can complete it. If players in blues and beat a specific piece of content, while find it very challenging, how challenging do you think it would be for those in exotics and ascended?

Let me ask you this, then: When players ask for “challenging content”, how many of them do you think mean “mobs that have higher numbers attached”? I would argue very few players are asking for that specifically. When most people hear that, they think of more interesting and complex mechanics that are difficult to trivially ignore or abuse. Higher tier requirements are just higher numbers, not more interesting content.

I think, also, very few players are asking to have “all tiers” able to complete these things. The issue is the perception that (at least some of) the highest tier (statwise) will be considered required for all of the content they’ve been pushing and marketing, which is tied to both very expensive components (especially silk, but that’s another thread) and mechanically simple daily crafting. (Or of course dumb luck.) That’s not challenge; you aren’t having to earn anything meaningful or surpass your limits, it’s just a transparent time and money sink you have to wade through before you can do stuff.

Coulter.2315:

Then 1) it isn’t gear-gated (I’ve explained this A LOT, Ascended Armour is +20 Primary Stat and +16 Secondary Stat i.e. irrelevant) and 2) I still think LS3 will be part of GW2’s future – but I don’t have more than an impression (but then neither do you).

If it’s irrelevant, why balance around it? (And how does one balance around something irrelevant, anyway?) Either it’s irrelevant, and not worth balancing around, or it is relevant, and a problem for those of us who haven’t been grinding dungeon runs for cash for the last three years.

Oh, I’m sure we’ll see more living story, and if the past is any indication, it’ll be pretty cool. The direction they seem to be taking the story has a lot of potential. It’s not what one could call highly-repeatable, though, and it’s definitely not (historically) something one’s likely to spend a whole lot of time in as a player. It’d be kind of nice to have other stuff to do.

Substance E.4852:

If Anet is going to shoot their own kitten off and try to lock instanced content behind grind barriers and not through genuinely harder content, people will just leave for games that do a much better job of it.

Raiding has the possibility of being a genuinely good way to bring in people not satisfied with what GW2 has to offer right now. If Anet decides to instead make it a pale imitation of what other games do, those people are likely to stay right where they are.

This is true, and why everyone should care about the grindy gearing-up process.

From the start, this game’s been about doing something different, and doing it well. Guild Wars 2 has some really neat combat systems, and when the encounters are more about dealing with interesting mechanics than performing optimal might stacking, they can be really fun! The more hoops they make you jump through before you get to do stuff, though, the more they move away from their emphasis on fun, active gameplay and toward the usual MMO time-sink-as-a-fun-substitute that many of us came here to get away from.

If you want to grind for more powerful gear, there are much better games for that, and there are always going to be.

Cdoto.4920:

Substance E.4852:

If Anet is going to shoot their own kitten off and try to lock instanced content behind grind barriers and not through genuinely harder content, people will just leave for games that do a much better job of it.

Raiding has the possibility of being a genuinely good way to bring in people not satisfied with what GW2 has to offer right now. If Anet decides to instead make it a pale imitation of what other games do, those people are likely to stay right where they are.

This is true, and why everyone should care about the grindy gearing-up process.

From the start, this game’s been about doing something different, and doing it well. Guild Wars 2 has some really neat combat systems, and when the encounters are more about dealing with interesting mechanics than performing optimal might stacking, they can be really fun! The more hoops they make you jump through before you get to do stuff, though, the more they move away from their emphasis on fun, active gameplay and toward the usual MMO time-sink-as-a-fun-substitute that many of us came here to get away from.

If you want to grind for more powerful gear, there are much better games for that, and there are always going to be.

nope, because many of these people already in gw2 need this grind. As it has already happened with ascended and as now ascended finally found their usage outside fractals (and now fractals are the necessaary step to be prepared for raids. people didn t do fractals? now they have to)

Coulter.2315:

If you’ve not been bothered to do high end pve for 2 years (probably haven’t done Fractal 50 with zero Ascended) then why the QQ? You don’t even like this content.

This ^^

Cdoto.4920:

Coulter.2315:

Then 1) it isn’t gear-gated (I’ve explained this A LOT, Ascended Armour is +20 Primary Stat and +16 Secondary Stat i.e. irrelevant) and 2) I still think LS3 will be part of GW2’s future – but I don’t have more than an impression (but then neither do you).

If it’s irrelevant, why balance around it? (And how does one balance around something irrelevant, anyway?) Either it’s irrelevant, and not worth balancing around, or it is relevant, and a problem for those of us who haven’t been grinding dungeon runs for cash for the last three years.

Oh, I’m sure we’ll see more living story, and if the past is any indication, it’ll be pretty cool. The direction they seem to be taking the story has a lot of potential. It’s not what one could call highly-repeatable, though, and it’s definitely not (historically) something one’s likely to spend a whole lot of time in as a player. It’d be kind of nice to have other stuff to do.

They haven’t balanced around +20 Pri Stat and +16 Sec Stats and cannot do so (literally impossible to balance to that level of accuracy), if you’re refering to that SINGLE RETRACTED TWEET then the employee clearly spoke out of turn.

And I’m glad you agree that past behaviour from Anet makes it a good assumption that there will be plenty for ALL players to do regardless of Raids.

I hope thats cleared things up.

Coulter.2315:

Cdoto.4920:

Coulter.2315:

Then 1) it isn’t gear-gated (I’ve explained this A LOT, Ascended Armour is +20 Primary Stat and +16 Secondary Stat i.e. irrelevant) and 2) I still think LS3 will be part of GW2’s future – but I don’t have more than an impression (but then neither do you).

If it’s irrelevant, why balance around it? (And how does one balance around something irrelevant, anyway?) Either it’s irrelevant, and not worth balancing around, or it is relevant, and a problem for those of us who haven’t been grinding dungeon runs for cash for the last three years.

Oh, I’m sure we’ll see more living story, and if the past is any indication, it’ll be pretty cool. The direction they seem to be taking the story has a lot of potential. It’s not what one could call highly-repeatable, though, and it’s definitely not (historically) something one’s likely to spend a whole lot of time in as a player. It’d be kind of nice to have other stuff to do.

They haven’t balanced around +20 Pri Stat and +16 Sec Stats and cannot do so (literally impossible to balance to that level of accuracy), if you’re refering to that SINGLE RETRACTED TWEET then the employee clearly spoke out of turn.

And I’m glad you agree that past behaviour from Anet makes it a good assumption that there will be plenty for ALL players to do regardless of Raids.

I hope thats cleared things up.

True, they can’t balance around the stat difference on a single item.
But it’s what, a 10% difference in all between exotic and ascended?
And they most certainly can balance around it (I mean really that’s basically what they said they did, not sure where anyone thinks they have legs to stand on arguing they didn’t)

They retracted everything? The part about Top Tier Players in mixed gear could probably beat the first raid wing boss? Or the part about those people probably needing full ascended for the last boss?
They retracted all of that did they?
Can you post a link, or source? I missed that.

As I said above, if the difference is truly insignificant then why indicate it was balanced around ascended? Plenty of people argue that if it were balanced around exotic people in ascended would make the content trivial.
Which is illogical, a trivial difference in stats cannot possibly make that much of an impact on the content.
Since it clearly can make that much of an impact on the content then the difference is not insignificant.

Andred.1087:

So much salt, I love it when people whine about “grind” when you can literally do anything in-game that gives decent loot and get your ascended gear in a few months’ time, just with a couple hours a day. Top-tier gear doesn’t just fall out of the sky!

To be fair, from the way Anet described the game early on, it would seem that top-tier gear more or less was supposed to fall out of the sky. So if people are basing their expectations on early dev proclamations, then I can see why they would be mad.

Altho, at this point, people should prob work on getting over what the devs said 2-3 years ago. As they love to say in Game of Thrones, “Words are wind.” That’s the first lesson of transactions. Anything that isn’t written in a contract is potential BS.

Even stuff in contracts can be BS, but at least if it’s contract, you can sue the bejeezus out of people who try to stiff you.

ScribeTheMad.7614:

Coulter.2315:

Cdoto.4920:

Coulter.2315:

Then 1) it isn’t gear-gated (I’ve explained this A LOT, Ascended Armour is +20 Primary Stat and +16 Secondary Stat i.e. irrelevant) and 2) I still think LS3 will be part of GW2’s future – but I don’t have more than an impression (but then neither do you).

If it’s irrelevant, why balance around it? (And how does one balance around something irrelevant, anyway?) Either it’s irrelevant, and not worth balancing around, or it is relevant, and a problem for those of us who haven’t been grinding dungeon runs for cash for the last three years.

Oh, I’m sure we’ll see more living story, and if the past is any indication, it’ll be pretty cool. The direction they seem to be taking the story has a lot of potential. It’s not what one could call highly-repeatable, though, and it’s definitely not (historically) something one’s likely to spend a whole lot of time in as a player. It’d be kind of nice to have other stuff to do.

They haven’t balanced around +20 Pri Stat and +16 Sec Stats and cannot do so (literally impossible to balance to that level of accuracy), if you’re refering to that SINGLE RETRACTED TWEET then the employee clearly spoke out of turn.

And I’m glad you agree that past behaviour from Anet makes it a good assumption that there will be plenty for ALL players to do regardless of Raids.

I hope thats cleared things up.

True, they can’t balance around the stat difference on a single item.
But it’s what, a 10% difference in all between exotic and ascended?
And they most certainly can balance around it (I mean really that’s basically what they said they did, not sure where anyone thinks they have legs to stand on arguing they didn’t)

They retracted everything? The part about Top Tier Players in mixed gear could probably beat the first raid wing boss? Or the part about those people probably needing full ascended for the last boss?
They retracted all of that did they?
Can you post a link, or source? I missed that.

As I said above, if the difference is truly insignificant then why indicate it was balanced around ascended? Plenty of people argue that if it were balanced around exotic people in ascended would make the content trivial.
Which is illogical, a trivial difference in stats cannot possibly make that much of an impact on the content.
Since it clearly can make that much of an impact on the content then the difference is not insignificant.

Yes they retracted it, the tweet has been deleted. If you look at many of the threads discussing this topic you will see both sides of the argument confirming that.

Ascended Weapons and Trinkets are pretty easy to get access to, Ascended Armour is the most expensive and THE WHOLE SET of Armour is +20 Pri Stat and +16 Sec Stats which is irrelevant – I am pointing out the “grind” isn’t there for anything that will affect the fight outcome.

You keep coming back to this RETRACTED tweet, stop basing your argument on something that can be discreditted by the numbers (as I did above) AND has been removed from Anet’s side (the employee just made a simple mistake and people jumped on it without even thinking). You do not need full ascended, you cannot need full ascended because its impossible to balance it around full armour contribution – and armour is the primary source of expense and grind.

Labjax.2465:

Andred.1087:

So much salt, I love it when people whine about “grind” when you can literally do anything in-game that gives decent loot and get your ascended gear in a few months’ time, just with a couple hours a day. Top-tier gear doesn’t just fall out of the sky!

To be fair, from the way Anet described the game early on, it would seem that top-tier gear more or less was supposed to fall out of the sky. So if people are basing their expectations on early dev proclamations, then I can see why they would be mad.

Altho, at this point, people should prob work on getting over what the devs said 2-3 years ago. As they love to say in Game of Thrones, “Words are wind.” That’s the first lesson of transactions. Anything that isn’t written in a contract is potential BS.

Even stuff in contracts can be BS, but at least if it’s contract, you can sue the bejeezus out of people who try to stiff you.

The devs NEVER said high end gear would fall from the sky – they were infact SHOCKED how quickly everyone got exotics (look at the miserable drop rate for them, they did not expect dungeons to be knocked over so easily so quickly) that is why they produced Ascended.

Don’t rewrite history people that were there can point it out when you do, this is also the reason the Charr must never be forgiven.

Coulter.2315:

The devs NEVER said high end gear would fall from the sky – they were infact SHOCKED how quickly everyone got exotics (look at the miserable drop rate for them, they did not expect dungeons to be knocked over so easily so quickly) that is why they produced Ascended.

They said that we would have BiS gear by level 80. Not at some point after farming post level 80. Not after gathering X thousands of <insert item here>. Not after maxing out crafting. By level 80.

We actually got full max level exotics more slowly than their announced intention.

From September 27, 2011 Source

Colin Johanson: _*Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the best statistical loot in the game. We want everyone on an equal power base*.

Coulter.2315:

Don’t rewrite history people that were there can point it out when you do,

Kettle meet pot.

Coulter.2315:

this is also the reason the Charr must never be forgiven.

Agreed.

Ashen.2907:

From September 27, 2011 Source

Colin Johanson: Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the best statistical loot in the game. We want everyone on an equal power base.

Yeah, they unabashedly dropped that like a hot rock when they found out how many players would get to 80, put max progression gear in all their slots, play around another day or three and NEVER LOG IN AGAIN.

Add it to the massive list of ideas that a bunch of people who had never done an MMO before boldly announced would be a part of GW2 that they either couldn’t actually bring to fruition or proved flat-out wrong in the face of the market reality.

The true testament to ANet’s skill and survival instincts was how fast they jettisoned some of those high-minded and utterly toxic ideals.

Nike.2631:

Ashen.2907:

From September 27, 2011 Source

Colin Johanson: Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the best statistical loot in the game. We want everyone on an equal power base.

Yeah, they unabashedly dropped that like a hot rock when they found out how many players would get to 80, put max progression gear in all their slots, play around another day or three and NEVER LOG IN AGAIN.

Add it to the massive list of ideas that a bunch of people who had never done an MMO before boldly announced would be a part of GW2 that they either couldn’t actually bring to fruition or proved flat-out wrong in the face of the market reality.

The true testament to ANet’s skill and survival instincts was how fast they jettisoned some of those high-minded and utterly toxic ideals.

Just responding to the comment that Anet, “NEVER,” said anything of the sort.

Not sure that I can agree that having everyone on an equal power base is toxic.

Ashen.2907:

Just responding to the comment that Anet, “NEVER,” said anything of the sort.

They said an awful lot about the role of Ascended as a long duration undertaking. They said more than they intended to about how it was a slap-dash reaction to experience gained once they went live. They can claim they were planning it beforehand until the cows come home but you need only look at the wildly different implementations of rings, the rest of the jewelry, and then armor/weapons to see they were figuring it out as they went along.

Not sure that I can agree that having everyone on an equal power base is toxic.

Losing an overwhelmingly large segment of your playerbase because stat progression stopped dead at Exotic is the toxic part. Legendary skins-without-stat-advantage as a motivator to either pay-a-ton-of-money or putz-around-grinding-whatever failed, and they cobbled together a vertical progression-based hook to stay, and each phase they unveiled took longer and longer to complete.

ok, just so you guys are aware.
exotic to ascended isn’t merely 10%

it’s a difference in 30 in the primary stat on amulets and 20 on rings and accessories
The a change of 5-15 on armor and weapon stats.

that’s a 150 point increase per stat. That’s equivalent to ten levels of level gain.
so
lvl 80=blue gear
lvl 85=green gear
lvl 90=yellow gear
lvl 100=exotic
lvl 110=ascended
lvl 115=legendary

thats what is equivalent to a 30 level stat difference between a character with standard gear and a character with ascended gear.

Try fighting a level 50 as a level 80 and you’ll know just how big a difference equipment stats make. Heck, fight a level 70, thats only a ten level difference and you’l still wipe the floor with them.

Zeppelin.6832:

Coulter.2315:

If you’ve not been bothered to do high end pve for 2 years (probably haven’t done Fractal 50 with zero Ascended) then why the QQ? You don’t even like this content.

This ^^

Which was responded to earlier in the thread.

Ashen.2907:

They said that we would have BiS gear by level 80. Not at some point after farming post level 80. Not after gathering X thousands of <insert item here>. Not after maxing out crafting. By level 80.

We actually got full max level exotics more slowly than their announced intention.

From September 27, 2011 Source

Colin Johanson: _*Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the best statistical loot in the game. We want everyone on an equal power base*.

Thanks for tracking down the quote, I’d looked but couldn’t remember the wording well enough to google productively.

Cdoto.4920:

Vayne.8563:

Astralporing.1957:

Vayne.8563:

Well, my friend, dungeons are balanced around a team of five and people solo them.

That’s because dungeons do not have any mechanisms to prevent subpar groups from finishing. Raids do.

Look the first raid boss has already been beaten. That’s like the first day of raids. Less than a day. I’m sure those guys probably all had ascended gear but I’m just as sure that a mixed group could do it once the fight is learned. I watched the video, I saw what was done. If a fully geared group can beat it on the first day, not even a full day, then I’m not worried about everyone having to have full ascended gear…keeping in mind that ascended jewelry is relatively easy to get.

And that was the first boss, being taken down with ascended gear. All that says is that the first boss doesn’t take more than a day to learn the tactics for, and nothing whatsoever about gear nor about what’s going to be neccessary to finish.

That said, the answer to my concerns isn’t “but we can raid!” They’ve said directly that raids are “not for everyone,” and as someone who can’t stick to a main and certainly can’t afford to gear my alts, that cuts me out. I think we can agree that the enforced gear treadmill in high end fractals makes them “not for everyone” either, for many of the same reasons. My question was, “so going forward, what new content does ‘everyone’ get when they buy the xpack? Just a Living Story patch and ‘adventure’ minigames, or are there plans to have substantial content going forward that doesn’t necessarily involve gearing up?”

There’s a long long way between saying raids are not for everyone and raids are for 2%. Raids could be for 75% of the population and not be for everyone.

I know this company pretty well. They’re not investing time in something only 5% of the playerbase can beat and, if only 5% of the playerbase beats it, Anet will adjust it.

They want a health percentage of the playerbase to beat it, or it’s not worth the time it takes to make the content.

You’re talking through fear. Raids not for everyone. That could mean a lot of things. Gathering is easy to do, but it’s not for everyone. Some people hate it. Same with crafting. Everyone CAN craft, but it’s not for everyone.

Taking that kind of line and expecting it to mean that you can’t do raids unless you stick to one character and have ascended gear? That’s a long, long haul.

In a few months time, if the population isn’t doing the raid, the raid will be nerfed. And if the population is doing it, then there’s no problem.

All that was ever really said was that raids were BALANCED around ascended gear.

If you go in with a casual group and some people have ascended and some people don’t, you won’t likely see that much of a difference.

Cdoto.4920:

Ashen.2907:

They said that we would have BiS gear by level 80. Not at some point after farming post level 80. Not after gathering X thousands of <insert item here>. Not after maxing out crafting. By level 80.

We actually got full max level exotics more slowly than their announced intention.

From September 27, 2011 Source

Colin Johanson: _*Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the best statistical loot in the game. We want everyone on an equal power base*.

Thanks for tracking down the quote, I’d looked but couldn’t remember the wording well enough to google productively.

One line four years ago. Yes, it was said, And I think Eric Flannum said something similar.

Then the game launched and the situation changed and they realized that they’d made a mistake and rectified it. Exotics were too easy to get and not enough people bought into the cosmetic end game. So they changed it. That’s what happens in business…especially MMOs. You make changes to make the game healthier.

You might not remember the forums 2-3 months after launch but every day there were posts about people being bored and people leaving. There wasn’t anything to work for. To be specific legendaries were too long term a goal for most people and exotics were so easy to get, that everyone got them and stopped playing. There was no middle ground.

Ascended was added to fill that gap. There’s no mystery here. The game simply wasn’t working for a big enough percentage of the playerbase and changes had to be made.

And it worked. The game grew healthier again, after a bunch of people walked out because they felt betrayed. But this wasn’t some personal attack by Anet. It was Anet trying to make the best of a bad situation.

Labjax.2465:

Andred.1087:

So much salt, I love it when people whine about “grind” when you can literally do anything in-game that gives decent loot and get your ascended gear in a few months’ time, just with a couple hours a day. Top-tier gear doesn’t just fall out of the sky!

To be fair, from the way Anet described the game early on, it would seem that top-tier gear more or less was supposed to fall out of the sky. So if people are basing their expectations on early dev proclamations, then I can see why they would be mad.

Altho, at this point, people should prob work on getting over what the devs said 2-3 years ago. As they love to say in Game of Thrones, “Words are wind.” That’s the first lesson of transactions. Anything that isn’t written in a contract is potential BS.

Even stuff in contracts can be BS, but at least if it’s contract, you can sue the bejeezus out of people who try to stiff you.

You’re right, and I’m not saying we were promised anything. I would kind of like the game I was sold, not because of any kind of presumed promise, obligation, or contract, but because I REALLY freaking like that game. It’s fun, and more to the point, it’s unique in the market.

When (not if) the people who are foaming for the top-end raiding get tired of it, they’ll just go down the metaphorical street to the next stat-driven Skinner box. Lots of those people came here through games like Rift and Wildstar, lighting for a few months then ditching when they predictably got bored with it. Because the devs saw those gamers as their bread and butter rather than a plague of locusts o’er the land, they invested heavily in them, alienating the rest of their audience. When the raiders moved on, they left a wasteland.

THAT is ultimately why I’m worried. I really (really) like this game precisely because it isn’t a slave to the ruinous trends of the industry. It is its own thing and should do its own thing, and the more of its unique appeal gets painted over in WoW’s colors for the sake of attracting the “hardcore”, the more I worry for its future.

Derenek.8931:

ok, just so you guys are aware.
exotic to ascended isn’t merely 10%

it’s a difference in 30 in the primary stat on amulets and 20 on rings and accessories
The a change of 5-15 on armor and weapon stats.

that’s a 150 point increase per stat. That’s equivalent to ten levels of level gain.
so
lvl 80=blue gear
lvl 85=green gear
lvl 90=yellow gear
lvl 100=exotic
lvl 110=ascended
lvl 115=legendary

thats what is equivalent to a 30 level stat difference between a character with standard gear and a character with ascended gear.

Try fighting a level 50 as a level 80 and you’ll know just how big a difference equipment stats make. Heck, fight a level 70, thats only a ten level difference and you’l still wipe the floor with them.

One fix needs to be made. Legendary and Ascended have the same stats.

Coulter.2315:

Yes they retracted it, the tweet has been deleted. If you look at many of the threads discussing this topic you will see both sides of the argument confirming that.

Not. They did remove the tweet, and mentioned, that ascended is not actually required ( which just means, by the way, that being in full exotic will not be an automatic failure), but they didn’t actually deny that the fights (and the enrage timers) are balanced around full ascended.

Coulter.2315:

Ascended Weapons and Trinkets are pretty easy to get access to

Easy, yes (so is armor, to be honest – no actual difficulty required). Doesn’t mean it is fast or effortless, and regearing is a pain unless you happen to run very specific content. A lot.

Nike.2631:

Ashen.2907:

From September 27, 2011 Source

Colin Johanson: Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the best statistical loot in the game. We want everyone on an equal power base.

Yeah, they unabashedly dropped that like a hot rock when they found out how many players would get to 80, put max progression gear in all their slots, play around another day or three and NEVER LOG IN AGAIN.

Which was dumb, because the majority of those people left for completely unrelated reasons. Mainly just because they ended up not liking the game in general. Happens for every game out there (and is especially visible with MMORPGs)

Nike.2631:

The true testament to ANet’s skill and survival instincts was how fast they jettisoned some of those high-minded and utterly toxic ideals.

Inexperience, you mean. They should have known about and expected the content locust, and realized that changing game for them is an exercise in futility.

And about toxicity… that’s debatable. In fact, some of the ideas they are implementing right now are far more damaging.

Nike.2631:

Losing an overwhelmingly large segment of your playerbase because stat progression stopped dead at Exotic is the toxic part.

Would be, if your assumption about why those people left was true. It’s however completely unsupported by any data, and in fact runs contrary to experiences gained from all the previous MMO’s launching in between wow and gw2.

Hint: no matter how good the game, you can expect between a quarter up to even half of your initial game population to leave within first months. The precise numbers depend a lot on how big a title it is, how wide/narrow the ad campaign targeting is, and how descriptive/precise is the prelaunch info. For a niche title aimed at a specific and very precisely defined target group, those numbers will be small. For a big title that claims to be revolutionary, has some catching features that bring attention, has good graphics and good word of mouth, you can expect the percentage to be much, much higher.

I’m quite sure, that Anet would have been as succesful in retaining the players then, if they have only introduced Fractals, with no ascended. In fact, they might have retained more players that way (after all, quite a number of people left due to the ascended debacle).

the thing is one I don’t really like fractals in design just terrible and long and rng factors but not hard capable of doing 30+ with just 25 AR.

the other side ascended armor mats make me a lot of gold every day 17 just for the damask alone.

and since I wasn’t a big fan of Fractals I choose to get more gold all the time. but now their forcing ok you guys better gear up with Raids etc on the way they said they recommand full ascended but I assume the basic would be right side and weapons at least ascended which I do have I just don’t have the armor.

if they want it to go right make make ascended drops far easier or cut out the time gated kitten. if you want it somewhat cheaper you need to spend at least a month of craft time to get full set.

Ashen.2907:

Nike.2631:

Ashen.2907:

From September 27, 2011 Source

Colin Johanson: Everyone, including casual gamers, by level 80 should have the best statistical loot in the game. We want everyone on an equal power base.

Yeah, they unabashedly dropped that like a hot rock when they found out how many players would get to 80, put max progression gear in all their slots, play around another day or three and NEVER LOG IN AGAIN.

Add it to the massive list of ideas that a bunch of people who had never done an MMO before boldly announced would be a part of GW2 that they either couldn’t actually bring to fruition or proved flat-out wrong in the face of the market reality.

The true testament to ANet’s skill and survival instincts was how fast they jettisoned some of those high-minded and utterly toxic ideals.

Just responding to the comment that Anet, “NEVER,” said anything of the sort.

Not sure that I can agree that having everyone on an equal power base is toxic.

I concede “NEVER” was the wrong word, at the same time that quote was a year before launch and clearly the devs went in a different direction before and further still after launch.

Astralporing.1957:

Coulter.2315:

Yes they retracted it, the tweet has been deleted. If you look at many of the threads discussing this topic you will see both sides of the argument confirming that.

Not. They did remove the tweet, and mentioned, that ascended is not actually required

This is the definition of retracted. Thanks.

Coulter.2315:

Astralporing.1957:

Coulter.2315:

Yes they retracted it, the tweet has been deleted. If you look at many of the threads discussing this topic you will see both sides of the argument confirming that.

Not. They did remove the tweet, and mentioned, that ascended is not actually required

This is the definition of retracted. Thanks.

Nope, because the tweed did not say “required”. It just said that the devs thought you will likely fail without ascended. Which hasn’t been in any way corrected.

I don’t get it. Where is the grind?

I went from 1-500 weaponsmithing a few weeks ago in about an hour. It took me all of 5 seconds to make some ascended stuff. I got all the materials without even trying.

Even if you don’t have all the materials ready to go, all you have to do is play the game however you want to and your bank will just fill up with stuff. Raids and fractals will always be there for the next day, week or month.

You people need to chill.

Astralporing.1957:

Coulter.2315:

Astralporing.1957:

Coulter.2315:

Yes they retracted it, the tweet has been deleted. If you look at many of the threads discussing this topic you will see both sides of the argument confirming that.

Not. They did remove the tweet, and mentioned, that ascended is not actually required

This is the definition of retracted. Thanks.

Nope, because the tweed did not say “required”. It just said that the devs thought you will likely fail without ascended. Which hasn’t been in any way corrected.

If they never said Ascended was “required” then what the hell are you arguing?? Like seriously, you’ve tied yourself in a knot – your position is ridiculous xD

munki.6402:

I have a lot of ascended: multiple weps on six characters. Full armor on three and pieces on two others. I am definitely a filthy casual, playing maybe an hour and a half a day, if that. Go figure.

So its doable then, good. I work a 45 hour week, got gym 4 times/w and a ton fo other stuff beside gaming. So 5-8 hours a week for games is pretty much what i get. No asc gear yet but I also started fairly recently.

Astralporing.1957:

Nike.2631:

Yeah, they unabashedly dropped that like a hot rock when they found out how many players would get to 80, put max progression gear in all their slots, play around another day or three and NEVER LOG IN AGAIN.

Which was dumb, because the majority of those people left for completely unrelated reasons. Mainly just because they ended up not liking the game in general. Happens for every game out there (and is especially visible with MMORPGs)

Well when it’s your company and you’re holding the financial livelihood of 300+ families in your hands you can make the call you think is best. Hopefully you’ll have more data, more professional knowledge of the industry, and more experience than a player armchair quarterbacking your decision years later when time has proven your decision may not have been the single best but your company is still tens to hundreds of millions of dollars a year in the black.

lorddarkflare.9186:

Cdoto.4920:

lorddarkflare.9186:

I think it is extremely disingenuous to label Fractals as simply ‘gear-gated’. Not to mention that Raids actually have a much less stringent gate than Fractals.

Even on the current system, you can get pretty far with fractals in just ascended trinkets.

And it is not like crafting Ascended Armor is dark magic.

What would make it a more honest description in your opinion?

Are you disputing the claim that a certain grade of gear is a functional requirement to complete this content? That would be odd, given that you go on to say that one can “get pretty far” if you already have some of the gear behind which it is gated. So… you can get part-way through the gated content when you’ve partially overcome the gate.

Ascended trickets are not difficult to get. In fact, most ascended trinkets are notoriously easy to get. You can get a full set with just normal play.

The actual hard gate only comes into play after you have placed agony infusions in all those slots.

My challenge stems from the implication that fractals are virtually unapproachable unless you are fully decked out in ascended. That is what calling it ‘gear-gated’ suggests and that is clearly not true.

Ascended trinkets aren’t easy to get in ‘normal’ play. My normal play doesn’t include fractals, and I think I might have dropped maybe 9 ascended pieces in 3 years of playing.

Maybe if you could progress in fractals by doing one at a time it would be something that interests me, but gimmick mechanics, jumping, dodge roll or instant death etc aren’t really my cup of tea.

log in … get Laurels… have trinkets.

Coulter.2315:

Astralporing.1957:

Coulter.2315:

Astralporing.1957:

Coulter.2315:

Yes they retracted it, the tweet has been deleted. If you look at many of the threads discussing this topic you will see both sides of the argument confirming that.

Not. They did remove the tweet, and mentioned, that ascended is not actually required

This is the definition of retracted. Thanks.

Nope, because the tweed did not say “required”. It just said that the devs thought you will likely fail without ascended. Which hasn’t been in any way corrected.

If they never said Ascended was “required” then what the hell are you arguing?? Like seriously, you’ve tied yourself in a knot – your position is ridiculous xD

Nope again. There’s no practical difference between “full ascended is required” and “if you go in full exotics i don’t think you will succeed”. Still, if you argue semantics (and Anet always does), the second one doesn’t actually say “required”. What you call a “retraction”, i call “arguing semantics”.

shion.2084:

log in … get Laurels… have trinkets.

repeat that for 5 months for a set

Astralporing.1957:

shion.2084:

log in … get Laurels… have trinkets.

repeat that for 5 months for a set

84 days so less than 3 months and that’s the maximum. You can cut down with

- Achievement Chest give you between 1 and 10 laurels each 500 Achivement pts.
- In your daily there is Fractal. You can only do the first island and get a Pristine. Each time will take you 15min max and you can even do it with two friends at level 1. In 2 months you probably be able to get 1 ring from that instead of laurel.
- In your daily there is Fracal 1-10. Doing all 4 islands on the weakest difficulty give you 2 Pristines in around 30-45min.
- Doing Guild Missions will give you both Accessories in 1 months with only 1,5 hour per week max. Even small guild of 5 people can 3 Commendations per week and get both accessories in 2 months.

So really, even someone that doesn’t like Fractal and in a very small guild can get a full set in 2 months with zero problem.

Thaddeus.4891:

Astralporing.1957:

shion.2084:

log in … get Laurels… have trinkets.

repeat that for 5 months for a set

84 days so less than 3 months and that’s the maximum. You can cut down with

- Achievement Chest give you between 1 and 10 laurels each 500 Achivement pts.
- In your daily there is Fractal. You can only do the first island and get a Pristine. Each time will take you 15min max and you can even do it with two friends at level 1. In 2 months you probably be able to get 1 ring from that instead of laurel.
- In your daily there is Fracal 1-10. Doing all 4 islands on the weakest difficulty give you 2 Pristines in around 30-45min.
- Doing Guild Missions will give you both Accessories in 1 months with only 1,5 hour per week max. Even small guild of 5 people can 3 Commendations per week and get both accessories in 2 months.

So really, even someone that doesn’t like Fractal and in a very small guild can get a full set in 2 months with zero problem.

1 to 3 months is an excessive time for a level 80 to gear up for the first raid.
Point of comparison ffxiv takes about a week or less.
I hear wow is also a week or less
So basically log in join fully upgraded guild to leech from once a week.
And after 4-8 weeks youll be ready to play!

Thats pretty lame. Its ok to make people play 4 weeks of appropriate well designed content, but 4-8 weeks of attendence awards?

Thats pretty bad

Thaddeus.4891:

Astralporing.1957:

shion.2084:

log in … get Laurels… have trinkets.

repeat that for 5 months for a set

84 days so less than 3 months and that’s the maximum. You can cut down with

- Achievement Chest give you between 1 and 10 laurels each 500 Achivement pts.
- In your daily there is Fractal. You can only do the first island and get a Pristine. Each time will take you 15min max and you can even do it with two friends at level 1. In 2 months you probably be able to get 1 ring from that instead of laurel.
- In your daily there is Fracal 1-10. Doing all 4 islands on the weakest difficulty give you 2 Pristines in around 30-45min.
- Doing Guild Missions will give you both Accessories in 1 months with only 1,5 hour per week max. Even small guild of 5 people can 3 Commendations per week and get both accessories in 2 months.

So really, even someone that doesn’t like Fractal and in a very small guild can get a full set in 2 months with zero problem.

Grats on consistently taking down the guild bounties every week with 5 peeps. (Wiki says 2 commendations a week, but that’s neither my personal experience nor my point.)

So assuming your numbers are correct (they look about right, though a consistent 30-45 mins seems a little optimistic for a round of fractals if you’re not aggressively kicking new peeps), in just under three months you can get what you need to be able to grind fractals for the gear you need to start grinding high end fractals for more ascended gear, and likely very little else (scale 1 fractal drops not being great).

If you really don’t like the experience of fractals in general, that seems like a spectacularly bad deal. “Congratulations! After nearly three months of constantly doing that thing you don’t like, you’re now allowed to do that thing you don’t like HARDER!”

Also, remember, come HoT the top isn’t going to be 50 anymore… assumptions about where this grind train ends are going to need to be revised.

That timetable is also assuming you’re doing just that for at least an hour a day for around two months, bare minimum. Does that actually sound like fun to anyone? That IS what we’re all here for, right? Fun?

—==—

The default answer to this, which I’ve gotten several times in this thread already, is, “Well, you clearly don’t like this game, then. Go play something else.” The fact is, I do want to play Guild Wars 2. If Heart of Thorns becomes a game I can’t play, eventually I might take your advice, but what I really want to play is the game they’ve been pitching and selling for several years now. That game ISN’T anywhere else. I’m posting because I’m concerned that I might be watching that awesome, unique game bury itself in other games’ toxic refuse in an attempt to chase the “hardcore”. I’ve watched it happen before, and I really don’t want to see it happen here.

I’ve been accused of speaking out of fear. That is correct. It is not, however, speaking out of ignorance, but rather bitter experience. I fear I might lose my favorite game to the same bunch of bullies that ruined my last several favorite games.

Anet’s manifesto really reminds me of Google’s “don’t be evil”. Neither of these two lasts.

Cdoto.4920:

Grats on consistently taking down the guild bounties every week with 5 peeps. (Wiki says 2 commendations a week, but that’s neither my personal experience nor my point.).

You only need to find and kill 1 guy to get commendation. You don’t need to win it all. Since tier 1 and 3 cost the same you can always spawn the 6 bounties and go after the easiest. A piece of cake to get the 2 commendation from bounties with 5 peoples. You can also do the Guild Rush for 1 commendation. That you can do by yourself. Again you receive the reward by getting to the end once. No need to finish it. So yes unless you are in a new guild that can’t unlock bounties and rush it’s easy to get 3 commendation per week with guild missions.

Cdoto.4920:

So assuming your numbers are correct (they look about right, though a consistent 30-45 mins seems a little optimistic for a round of fractals if you’re not aggressively kicking new peeps),

Fractal level 1 is pretty easy. Ok. If you are alone you can have some longer time with pugs, but it’s not a fractal 50. You just need3 half decent player and the remaining players in the party can just sit down and eat chips.

Cdoto.4920:

in just under three months you can get what you need to be able to grind fractals for the gear you need to start grinding high end fractals for more ascended gear, and likely very little else (scale 1 fractal drops not being great).

If you really don’t like the experience of fractals in general, that seems like a spectacularly bad deal. “Congratulations! After nearly three months of constantly doing that thing you don’t like, you’re now allowed to do that thing you don’t like HARDER!”

Wait what?? Ok first of all it take 3 months if you only log in everyday and do ZERO fractal. Zero fractal for someone who don’t like fractal seem pretty good deal. I was just saying that if someone want they can decrease this 3 months by doing some small fractal, the easiest one. And after that 3 months you have everything. What do you need to grind after that? Let,s be clear. My post was about TRINKETS and Laurels. What are you talking about.

Cdoto.4920:

Also, remember, come HoT the top isn’t going to be 50 anymore… assumptions about where this grind train ends are going to need to be revised.

The only ascended pieces remaining to get is underwater head piece. What grind for ascended you are talking about now. Another grind for another subject? So I was talking about ascended trinket and you quote me saying oh ya but what about all ascended gear even if you didn’t talk about that. And now you are quoting me about fractal weapons?? Or Agony Resistance? Or Infused gear? Are we still talking about people that don’t like Fractal, because it doesn’t seem like the kind of stuff someone that dislike fractal would like to grind.

Cdoto.4920:

That timetable is also assuming you’re doing just that for at least an hour a day for around two months, bare minimum. Does that actually sound like fun to anyone? That IS what we’re all here for, right? Fun?

Well on a timescale of 3 months that would take you around 30sec per day. Log in, click twice, log out. For two months you would need only to do guild missions so 4 times in that 2 months you would need to take 1.5 hour to do guild missions (which is fun IMO) and then for the rest of the 2 months it still take you 30sec per day. Not exactly the same as you said. Or you can do 8 times 30min guild missions if it’s only rush and bounty.

If you want to do it in 1 month. It take 4 times to do guild missions, 1.5 hour each time. Then you would need to between 10 and 20 low level fractal (depend on rings drop and dailies). So if you want to do it in 1 months we could say that worst case scenario it will take you 1 hours per day.

Cdoto.4920:

The default answer to this, which I’ve gotten several times in this thread already, is, “Well, you clearly don’t like this game, then. Go play something else.” The fact is, I do want to play Guild Wars 2. If Heart of Thorns becomes a game I can’t play, eventually I might take your advice, but what I really want to play is the game they’ve been pitching and selling for several years now. That game ISN’T anywhere else. I’m posting because I’m concerned that I might be watching that awesome, unique game bury itself in other games’ toxic refuse in an attempt to chase the “hardcore”. I’ve watched it happen before, and I really don’t want to see it happen here.

I’ve been accused of speaking out of fear. That is correct. It is not, however, speaking out of ignorance, but rather bitter experience. I fear I might lose my favourite game to the same bunch of bullies that ruined my last several favourite games.

In the end, trinkets and Weapons are the only thing worth talking about and they are really easy to get. And actually, there is really fun way to acquire them. I’ve got a lot of casual players in my guild and I love to help them. Most of them think that a lot of the stuff is really hard to get, but once I help them and give them all the little trick, they find out that it’s not that hard after all.