Guild Wars 2

Niriel.5490:

To be honest, I don’t really understand everybody complaining about masteries being locked behind certain activities. You bought Heart of Thorns knowing that it would be this way, so if you don’t like doing adventures / jumping puzzles / whatever else, you should either have accepted and consented that you won’t have every mastery unlocked, or shouldn’t have purchased the expansion at all. And in case you didn’t actually read through what kind of features will HoT have, then, well…

• Official mastery feature description
• The first reveal of the mastery system

Notice that this latter article (which is referenced at the bottom of the official feature description) was created in February 2015, more than half a year before the release of HoT.
Quoting from the article (highlighting done by me):

‘To train a specific Mastery track, you must first unlock it by spending Mastery points. Mastery points are awarded for completing various pieces of game content. Things like completing a chapter in your personal story, completing certain achievements, reaching hard-to-find locations, overcoming challenging encounters, excelling at adventures found within the Heart of Maguuma, or earning 100% completion for a map will award Mastery points. Each Mastery point can be earned once per account, so while Mastery points allow you to unlock Mastery tracks, they are also an indicator of how much of the game you’ve experienced.’

While adventures are certainly mentioned, it is difficult to determine from those blogs just what adventures were going to be. I expected instanced content more like delves in ESO than mini-games in which the build I put thought and effort into being supplanted by something else.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Niriel.5490:

To be honest, I don’t really understand everybody complaining about masteries being locked behind certain activities. You bought Heart of Thorns knowing that it would be this way, so if you don’t like doing adventures / jumping puzzles / whatever else, you should either have accepted and consented that you won’t have every mastery unlocked, or shouldn’t have purchased the expansion at all. And in case you didn’t actually read through what kind of features will HoT have, then, well…

• Official mastery feature description
• The first reveal of the mastery system

Notice that this latter article (which is referenced at the bottom of the official feature description) was created in February 2015, more than half a year before the release of HoT.
Quoting from the article (highlighting done by me):

‘To train a specific Mastery track, you must first unlock it by spending Mastery points. Mastery points are awarded for completing various pieces of game content. Things like completing a chapter in your personal story, completing certain achievements, reaching hard-to-find locations, overcoming challenging encounters, excelling at adventures found within the Heart of Maguuma, or earning 100% completion for a map will award Mastery points. Each Mastery point can be earned once per account, so while Mastery points allow you to unlock Mastery tracks, they are also an indicator of how much of the game you’ve experienced.’

While adventures are certainly mentioned, it is difficult to determine from those blogs just what adventures were going to be. I expected instanced content more like delves in ESO than mini-games in which the build I put thought and effort into being supplanted by something else.

Yes that too, when I see the word adventures, I’m thinking more of a mini-dungeon, than I am thinking of mobile phone games.

IndigoSundown.5419:

While adventures are certainly mentioned, it is difficult to determine from those blogs just what adventures were going to be. I expected instanced content more like delves in ESO than mini-games in which the build I put thought and effort into being supplanted by something else.

Available from the Heart of Thorns page again, this blog post quite accurately describes how adventures look like and what you should expect (although the final version of Shooting Gallery is a bit different, but from this description I’d even say it’s easier than the original concept).

IndigoSundown.5419:

Niriel.5490:

To be honest, I don’t really understand everybody complaining about masteries being locked behind certain activities. You bought Heart of Thorns knowing that it would be this way, so if you don’t like doing adventures / jumping puzzles / whatever else, you should either have accepted and consented that you won’t have every mastery unlocked, or shouldn’t have purchased the expansion at all. And in case you didn’t actually read through what kind of features will HoT have, then, well…

• Official mastery feature description
• The first reveal of the mastery system

Notice that this latter article (which is referenced at the bottom of the official feature description) was created in February 2015, more than half a year before the release of HoT.
Quoting from the article (highlighting done by me):

‘To train a specific Mastery track, you must first unlock it by spending Mastery points. Mastery points are awarded for completing various pieces of game content. Things like completing a chapter in your personal story, completing certain achievements, reaching hard-to-find locations, overcoming challenging encounters, excelling at adventures found within the Heart of Maguuma, or earning 100% completion for a map will award Mastery points. Each Mastery point can be earned once per account, so while Mastery points allow you to unlock Mastery tracks, they are also an indicator of how much of the game you’ve experienced.’

While adventures are certainly mentioned, it is difficult to determine from those blogs just what adventures were going to be. I expected instanced content more like delves in ESO than mini-games in which the build I put thought and effort into being supplanted by something else.

i think it was clear adventures was going to be closer to mini games than what you imagined.

Niriel.5490:

To be honest, I don’t really understand everybody complaining about masteries being locked behind certain activities. You bought Heart of Thorns knowing that it would be this way, so if you don’t like doing adventures / jumping puzzles / whatever else, you should either have accepted and consented that you won’t have every mastery unlocked, or shouldn’t have purchased the expansion at all. And in case you didn’t actually read through what kind of features will HoT have, then, well…

• Official mastery feature description
• The first reveal of the mastery system

Notice that this latter article (which is referenced at the bottom of the official feature description) was created in February 2015, more than half a year before the release of HoT.
Quoting from the article (highlighting done by me):

‘To train a specific Mastery track, you must first unlock it by spending Mastery points. Mastery points are awarded for completing various pieces of game content. Things like completing a chapter in your personal story, completing certain achievements, reaching hard-to-find locations, overcoming challenging encounters, excelling at adventures found within the Heart of Maguuma, or earning 100% completion for a map will award Mastery points. Each Mastery point can be earned once per account, so while Mastery points allow you to unlock Mastery tracks, they are also an indicator of how much of the game you’ve experienced.’

I didn’t know exactly how many Master Points would be required, how many would be available, how many would be behind adventures / story / etc. I also didn’t know that “excelling at adventures” meant arcade games. I didn’t see the explanation in the blog post.

Vayne.8563:

Most people want mastery points but not everyone likes the content you have to do enough to get those mastery points. If those players force themselves to do that content, they’re not going to be having fun, even though the got the reward.

That’s how I feel about all those mini games in HoT. I will eventually do them for the mastery points, but they are a duty and not fun.

Last time the karka mini game was a daily. I entered the arena and we were two (at times three) players who just sat down at the side and waited until it’s over. I tried to enter and leave immediately, but you have to finish to make it count as daily. You also have to use a skill sometimes to not get kicked.

Most stupid thing in the whole game. But the fourth daily was something worse.

So yes, the fun is not the activity itself, but the reward. If both is fun, that’s great, and most of the things in GW2 are like that for me. Otherwise I wouldn’t be here. But as you said, something that is fun for one group is despised by another. I don’t mind some grind., but many Tyria Mastery Points are no fun to get.

Faaris.8013:

Vayne.8563:

Most people want mastery points but not everyone likes the content you have to do enough to get those mastery points. If those players force themselves to do that content, they’re not going to be having fun, even though the got the reward.

That’s how I feel about all those mini games in HoT. I will eventually do them for the mastery points, but they are a duty and not fun.

Last time the karka mini game was a daily. I entered the arena and we were two (at times three) players who just sat down at the side and waited until it’s over. I tried to enter and leave immediately, but you have to finish to make it count as daily. You also have to use a skill sometimes to not get kicked.

Most stupid thing in the whole game. But the fourth daily was something worse.

So yes, the fun is not the activity itself, but the reward. If both is fun, that’s great, and most of the things in GW2 are like that for me. Otherwise I wouldn’t be here. But as you said, something that is fun for one group is despised by another. I don’t mind some grind., but many Tyria Mastery Points are no fun to get.

The problem with arcade games is that IMO they don’t belong in an RPG. Sure, a lot of people like them, but a lot of people like solitaire – that doesn’t mean Anet should put solitaire in GW2. If people like arcade games, or solitaire, or Mario Bros they should go play those games which exist elsewhere.

Ok where does this say masteries will be hidden behind Mini Games?

“To train a specific Mastery track, you must first unlock it by spending Mastery points. Mastery points are awarded for completing various pieces of game content. Things like completing a chapter in your personal story, completing certain achievements, reaching hard-to-find locations, overcoming challenging encounters, excelling at adventures found within the Heart of Maguuma, or earning 100% completion for a map will award Mastery points. Each Mastery point can be earned once per account, so while Mastery points allow you to unlock Mastery tracks, they are also an indicator of how much of the game you’ve experienced. In fact, once you have unlocked the ability to train Masteries, your nameplate will display the number of Mastery points you have gained rather than your level. Mastery points can be gained at any level but cannot be spent until level 80.”

Also when I pre-purchased Heart of Thorns I’m pretty sure this wan’t available (not that I would have picked up on mini games from this description) since I ordered day 1 of being available.

Lite Ning Strike.5203:

Ok where does this say masteries will be hidden behind Mini Games?

“To train a specific Mastery track, you must first unlock it by spending Mastery points. Mastery points are awarded for completing various pieces of game content. Things like completing a chapter in your personal story, completing certain achievements, reaching hard-to-find locations, overcoming challenging encounters, excelling at adventures found within the Heart of Maguuma, or earning 100% completion for a map will award Mastery points. Each Mastery point can be earned once per account, so while Mastery points allow you to unlock Mastery tracks, they are also an indicator of how much of the game you’ve experienced. In fact, once you have unlocked the ability to train Masteries, your nameplate will display the number of Mastery points you have gained rather than your level. Mastery points can be gained at any level but cannot be spent until level 80.”

Also when I pre-purchased Heart of Thorns I’m pretty sure this wan’t available (not that I would have picked up on mini games from this description) since I ordered day 1 of being available.

Hopefully you will not prepurchase in the future. Wait, see if it matches your preferences, and then buy.

That’s exactly what I will do. Wait until a month after release and see what the community will write. I’ll especially search for mentioning of grief mechanics like the huge item grind in HoT, the masteries grind, the locked-away mastery points. If there are mechanics that come out as in HoT, it’s my departure from GW2.

Don’t get me wrong: HoT gameplay on the 4 HoT maps is nice and fun. But only after you maxed the masteries. Which was no fun at all. Absolutely none. Hated every second of it. Don’t want to have it again. If there is an edition at an additional cost of 20 Euro that comes with pre-maxed masteries, I’ll buy it immediately.

Djinn.9245:

Faaris.8013:

Vayne.8563:

Most people want mastery points but not everyone likes the content you have to do enough to get those mastery points. If those players force themselves to do that content, they’re not going to be having fun, even though the got the reward.

That’s how I feel about all those mini games in HoT. I will eventually do them for the mastery points, but they are a duty and not fun.

Last time the karka mini game was a daily. I entered the arena and we were two (at times three) players who just sat down at the side and waited until it’s over. I tried to enter and leave immediately, but you have to finish to make it count as daily. You also have to use a skill sometimes to not get kicked.

Most stupid thing in the whole game. But the fourth daily was something worse.

So yes, the fun is not the activity itself, but the reward. If both is fun, that’s great, and most of the things in GW2 are like that for me. Otherwise I wouldn’t be here. But as you said, something that is fun for one group is despised by another. I don’t mind some grind., but many Tyria Mastery Points are no fun to get.

The problem with arcade games is that IMO they don’t belong in an RPG. Sure, a lot of people like them, but a lot of people like solitaire – that doesn’t mean Anet should put solitaire in GW2. If people like arcade games, or solitaire, or Mario Bros they should go play those games which exist elsewhere.

Nothing wrong with putting arcade games in an RPG as long as the rewards for them are seperated from everything else. I have no problem with Sanctum Sprint because it’s self contained. It interferes with nothing. If I want the achievements for it I can do it, but if I ignore it, it’s really no cost to me.

Adventures are a different animal.

I pray HoT gets the Orr threatment in the end and they make most of the content soloable and they end up untying map advancement from events, like those pesky vine walls on Auric Basin…

HoT maps WILL die sooner than later, and they can’t just leave them as a remainder of a mediocre expansion.

I hope that HoT maps don’t get the Orr treatment. There is no fun in watching everyone spamming their aoes with no sense of achievement, logic nor no sense of danger whatsoever while you just watch the mobs just get insta down. LS3 maps provide this sort of gameplay already, there is no need for more of that.

Niriel.5490:

To be honest, I don’t really understand everybody complaining about masteries being locked behind certain activities. You bought Heart of Thorns knowing that it would be this way, so if you don’t like …

This is false, as regards adventures. There was not even a hint that we would be forced into arcade games by buying HoT (if we wanted to take full advantage of the new capabilities).

Now, don’t get me wrong: I don’t mind adventures. It’s the fact that I’m forced to do them in order to progress in the completely unrelated game called Guild Wars 2.

45 years ago, I could hold my own in an arcade. But, those 45 extra years have slowed the old reflexes a bit. OK, a lot. There are some that are impossible for me to even get to silver, and only one or two where I have a chance to get gold.

They’re NOT Guild Wars. They would be OK in a once-a-year event, but it’s not OK to hide masteries behind them.

phys.7689:

i think it was clear adventures was going to be closer to mini games than what you imagined.

Yeah, but was it clear that you would be stopped in all progression of your characters should you choose NOT to participate in them?

I’m not arguing against adventures existing. Clearly there are a lot of people who like them. I’m arguing against having the most fundamental aspect of character advancement (for level 80s) being locked behind them.

Faaris.8013:

That’s how I feel about all those mini games in HoT. I will eventually do them for the mastery points, but they are a duty and not fun.

Exactly.

Silmar Alech.4305:

If there is an edition at an additional cost of 20 Euro that comes with pre-maxed masteries, I’ll buy it immediately.

This is probably not the right thread, but this is a darned good idea: give us the ability to buy mastery points with real money (or gold).

The purists will hate it, but I think it’s brilliant.

I am 186, have done raids, and am doing meta maps regularly because of the provisioner tokens. They are not dead.

I am only at 28k AP… I can guarantee there is allways a map open… If the expansion hit a lot of people might return to procure HoT and the new set at the same time, and the maps will get revived again.

I sucked at adventures and did ’m anayways, for legendaries, for money or mastery points.

I will be honest there are plenty of points (I’m not max in points, but am max in level)
at the time of writing

I’m at 186 mastery with 31 HoT points unspent and 13 tyria points unspent! _
_I’m missing 5 vanilla points (2 TT bosses, 3 collections (Fractals and gold fractals and ambrite) and 6 HoT points (another 4 points from raids)… I did however unlock Envoy 2 and am working on my legendary armor

Well it’s certainly easier to max your points now since you can earn more achievements in the new Living Story zones than you need to buy the new masteries from those zones. It should help make it a lot easier for those who hate doing adventures.

That said there are a couple of adventures that are very easy to do, and one that’s even easy to get gold in (maybe two or three). I don’t have gold in most of the adventures don’t have silver in others, but I’m sitting on 186 mastery points.

But we’ve seen more than one person who just started HoT post that the zones are quire busy, much to their surprise after reading some of the stuff on these forums.

I get that some people don’t like HoT, or the mastery system, but that doesn’t make either of them bad, and it’s absolutely possible to get the mastery points you need.

Again if anyone is on a US server and they need help getting into HOT or getting HOT masteries or unlocking their elite spec, I’d be happy to help them.

Vayne.8563:

Well it’s certainly easier to max your points now since you can earn more achievements in the new Living Story zones than you need to buy the new masteries from those zones. It should help make it a lot easier for those who hate doing adventures.

That said there are a couple of adventures that are very easy to do, and one that’s even easy to get gold in (maybe two or three). I don’t have gold in most of the adventures don’t have silver in others, but I’m sitting on 186 mastery points.

But we’ve seen more than one person who just started HoT post that the zones are quire busy, much to their surprise after reading some of the stuff on these forums.

I get that some people don’t like HoT, or the mastery system, but that doesn’t make either of them bad, and it’s absolutely possible to get the mastery points you need.

Again if anyone is on a US server and they need help getting into HOT or getting HOT masteries or unlocking their elite spec, I’d be happy to help them.

I have to agree with this, masterys are not to hard to get. And i do notice that i probably hate the mastery system more due to HOT breaking WvW and PvP.

HOT increased the speed of the game alot and alot of my guild members did not like it in there PvE.

I think it just got to a point where people feel like they needed masterys to progress but they were not enjoying the journey. This doesnt go for the players who like the speed and enjoy the content. Yet i also agree that alot of the complaints seem to be more about just playing the game. Yet feel they cant, i personally lost some interest since i didnt have enough MP to use the spider man skill.

HOT just brings out alot of frustration IMO.

At best, masteries are tedious to get. It’s a timegating mechanism to stretch the player’s playtime, not a mechanism to provide the player with fun content. As they are in HoT, I never felt the promised “progression” associated with them. I always saw them as obstacles I was required to overcome before I was able to have fun.

The aspect of obstacle got less bad in the new LS3 maps, because the required XP are not very high. But the idea to earn the XP and mastery points for a mastery in exactly the same map where you need this mastery is what made me abstain HoT for almost a year.
I feel progression if I can level and progress something to be able to advance to the next game area. If I don’t level some ability, I would perish in the next are, so I level that ability in the previous area.
But the current mastery system is as you enter a level 80 area as level 10 toon and are expected to earn XP in that combination. You perish. As level 10 toon in a level 80 area where everything is so hostile that you cannot advance much from a outpost and survive.

I acknowledge that there exist people who need some leveling goal, some grind mechanics to keep him busy in the game. I am not that kind of person, and I know many other players like me. I like to move to the actual content the game provides. I found 1 year of stuff to do without touching HoT. I really didn’t need this artificial progress of mastery grind. Thus my suggestion to be able to buy out the masteries with real money. And real money is what you want, Arenanet, or not?
I made real progress in the fractals for example, where I learnt how to become a better player. That was fun, and that was real personal progress. But leveling masteries is nothing I call progress – it’s only a huge sink, where you simply unlock some locked obligatory game features that should be unlocked from the start.

Silmar Alech.4305:

At best, masteries are tedious to get. It’s a timegating mechanism to stretch the player’s playtime, not a mechanism to provide the player with fun content. As they are in HoT, I never felt the promised “progression” associated with them. I always saw them as obstacles I was required to overcome before I was able to have fun.

The aspect of obstacle got less bad in the new LS3 maps, because the required XP are not very high. But the idea to earn the XP and mastery points for a mastery in exactly the same map where you need this mastery is what made me abstain HoT for almost a year.
I feel progression if I can level and progress something to be able to advance to the next game area. If I don’t level some ability, I would perish in the next are, so I level that ability in the previous area.
But the current mastery system is as you enter a level 80 area as level 10 toon and are expected to earn XP in that combination. You perish. As level 10 toon in a level 80 area where everything is so hostile that you cannot advance much from a outpost and survive.

I acknowledge that there exist people who need some leveling goal, some grind mechanics to keep him busy in the game. I am not that kind of person, and I know many other players like me. I like to move to the actual content the game provides. I found 1 year of stuff to do without touching HoT. I really didn’t need this artificial progress of mastery grind. Thus my suggestion to be able to buy out the masteries with real money. And real money is what you want, Arenanet, or not?
I made real progress in the fractals for example, where I learnt how to become a better player. That was fun, and that was real personal progress. But leveling masteries is nothing I call progress – it’s only a huge sink, where you simply unlock some locked obligatory game features that should be unlocked from the start.

Completely agree. Trying to get through Verdant Brink with zero Masteries was a nightmare.

A lot of this thread boils down to this:

Players complain about dead maps.
Players are wrong, and are given tools and advice to help them find filled maps.
Players refuse to make use of said tools and advice, and proceeds to complain about maps being dead.

Repeat.

TwiceDead.1963:

A lot of this thread boils down to this:

Players complain about dead maps.
Players are wrong, and are given tools and advice to help them find filled maps.
Players refuse to make use of said tools and advice, and proceeds to complain about maps being dead.

Repeat.

Actually that’s almost what I’m saying, except not in relationship to dead. I don’t get on many dead maps, using no LFG, no external website. Most of the time just bopping around, I don’t end up on dead maps.

My advice to get into meta maps, if the meta is your main concern, is to use LFG and a timer site. But to just play, I barely ever have to change maps at all, and the maps still aren’t dead.

Vayne.8563:

TwiceDead.1963:

A lot of this thread boils down to this:

Players complain about dead maps.
Players are wrong, and are given tools and advice to help them find filled maps.
Players refuse to make use of said tools and advice, and proceeds to complain about maps being dead.

Repeat.

Actually that’s almost what I’m saying, except not in relationship to dead. I don’t get on many dead maps, using no LFG, no external website. Most of the time just bopping around, I don’t end up on dead maps.

My advice to get into meta maps, if the meta is your main concern, is to use LFG and a timer site. But to just play, I barely ever have to change maps at all, and the maps still aren’t dead.

It’s likely an issue of perception. If you’re comfortable with the HoT maps and enjoy playing them, you’re not likely to notice an issue. However, if you have difficulty surviving on your own and get lost easily, being alone even for a few minutes is much more of an issue. Given that, it’s perhaps not surprising that players who dislike HoT tend to view the HoT maps as “dead” while players who enjoy HoT do not.

A failure to understand how megaserver and LFG work is likely a major contributing factor as well. If you didn’t know why it was happening, repeatedly being prompted to change maps due to low population is sure going to make it seem like HoT is full of dead maps!

TwiceDead.1963:

A lot of this thread boils down to this:

Players complain about dead maps.
Players are wrong, and are given tools and advice to help them find filled maps.
Players refuse to make use of said tools and advice, and proceeds to complain about maps being dead.

Repeat.

I like how you write that, find 2 people who agree when Silmar Alech.4305 wrote a point which will never be addressed.

Example they used was getting better at fractals, you go threw the grind because you see and feel yourself getting better.

A HUGE AMOUNT OF PLAYERS do not find enjoyment on playing meta maps.

There is a group of players that do boss runs, guess what alot of players dont do boss runs.

Masterys and HOT are boss runs, guess what alot of people are not gonna like that. Its pretty simply to understand but a few people will make the arguments because they like doing boss runs.

Its hard listening to people of a different point of view and actually listening to there complaints.

Please many of you arguments are valid in that mastery points are not hard to get, that maps are available once you know the times of the maps and use the LFG tool.

Thats great but actually address people who want to play the game and didnt put mastery points into gliding and now need ley line gliding for raids or to play with friends who are ahead and have the XP and masterys.

I dont think its any surprise that WvW took a huge hit when HOT came as well as PvP and many of the casual PvE players dont like HOT which is why that thread “New Player, Sad Player. Expansion ruined it.” is still on the front page with 28k views with 1/2 the players saying they agree.

Many people could agree that GW2 core needed more difficult content for those seeking it.

But Anet used HOT to do that content and just ruined the game for 2 side community and some of its casual PvE player base.

AliamRationem.5172:

Vayne.8563:

TwiceDead.1963:

A lot of this thread boils down to this:

Players complain about dead maps.
Players are wrong, and are given tools and advice to help them find filled maps.
Players refuse to make use of said tools and advice, and proceeds to complain about maps being dead.

Repeat.

Actually that’s almost what I’m saying, except not in relationship to dead. I don’t get on many dead maps, using no LFG, no external website. Most of the time just bopping around, I don’t end up on dead maps.

My advice to get into meta maps, if the meta is your main concern, is to use LFG and a timer site. But to just play, I barely ever have to change maps at all, and the maps still aren’t dead.

It’s likely an issue of perception. If you’re comfortable with the HoT maps and enjoy playing them, you’re not likely to notice an issue. However, if you have difficulty surviving on your own and get lost easily, being alone even for a few minutes is much more of an issue. Given that, it’s perhaps not surprising that players who dislike HoT tend to view the HoT maps as “dead” while players who enjoy HoT do not.

A failure to understand how megaserver and LFG work is likely a major contributing factor as well. If you didn’t know why it was happening, repeatedly being prompted to change maps due to low population is sure going to make it seem like HoT is full of dead maps!

Being alone for a few minutes doesn’t make a dead map. If it does, then every single map in the game is dead and has been for years. It’s simply not the case. The word dead has a meaning. The words I can’t survive for three minutes and feel alone and vulnerable is quite a different meaning.

I believe the people saying the map is dead are trying to use that to give emphasis to their own negative opinion of HOT without regard for what’s actually happening on HoT maps.

kdaddy.5431:

TwiceDead.1963:

A lot of this thread boils down to this:

Players complain about dead maps.
Players are wrong, and are given tools and advice to help them find filled maps.
Players refuse to make use of said tools and advice, and proceeds to complain about maps being dead.

Repeat.

I like how you write that, find 2 people who agree when Silmar Alech.4305 wrote a point which will never be addressed.

Example they used was getting better at fractals, you go threw the grind because you see and feel yourself getting better.

A HUGE AMOUNT OF PLAYERS do not find enjoyment on playing meta maps.

There is a group of players that do boss runs, guess what alot of players dont do boss runs.

Masterys and HOT are boss runs, guess what alot of people are not gonna like that. Its pretty simply to understand but a few people will make the arguments because they like doing boss runs.

Its hard listening to people of a different point of view and actually listening to there complaints.

Please many of you arguments are valid in that mastery points are not hard to get, that maps are available once you know the times of the maps and use the LFG tool.

Thats great but actually address people who want to play the game and didnt put mastery points into gliding and now need ley line gliding for raids or to play with friends who are ahead and have the XP and masterys.

I dont think its any surprise that WvW took a huge hit when HOT came as well as PvP and many of the casual PvE players dont like HOT which is why that thread “New Player, Sad Player. Expansion ruined it.” is still on the front page with 28k views with 1/2 the players saying they agree.

Many people could agree that GW2 core needed more difficult content for those seeking it.

But Anet used HOT to do that content and just ruined the game for 2 side community and some of its casual PvE player base.

There are so many mastery points in each zone that aren’t boss runs, it’s not even funny. There may well be as many boss run mastery points as non-boss run mastery points. I don’t like boss runs and never have. Fortunately there are strong boxes, which aren’t boss runs and can be soloed for the most part. There are communes which are not boss runs and can be soloed, for the most part. There are achievements like gliding under the 3 arches in AB in the city which can be soloed. There are achievements like stealthing to get a chest in TD, which can be soloed. There are adventures, some of which are quite easy, which can be soloed and aren’t boss runs.

What I hear, is people saying I don’t like mini-games, and I don’t like playing with other people and I don’t like boss runs and I don’t like hard content and I don’t like having to wait for stuff.

The more stuff you don’t like the less likely you’re going to like anything in any game.

I had a guildie who has since left the game who didn’t like PvP at all. Not even a little. Didn’t like boss fights or hard content. Didn’t like dungeons or Fractals. Didn’t like jumping or jumping puzzles.

Her entire game while she was here was completing maps on different alts, because she didn’t like anything else. You had to pry her out of the open world to even try an easy dungeon. You couldn’t get her into a fractal, or any type of PvP.

Sure she would have had trouble getting mastery points, even though she could level to 80 and be happy.

The fact is, there were four lines in HoT besides raids. Gliding, Itzel lore, Exalted Lore and Nuhoch Lore. If you weren’t going to play HOT you didn’t really need any of them. But if you did play HOT you needed only a handful of points.

If you kept getting points at that point and just kept throwing them into things randomly. that’s a problem, because it should have been obvious by then that you can’t go back. As a player of a game, one of the simplest things anyone could have done was ask, or do minimal research to figure out what to level, particularly keeping in mind that core Tyria points were complete seperate. I leave raids out of it because raids themselves have enough points to level raids.

So between achievements, exploration masteries, adventures, living story masteries, and boss runs, there should be some path to get all the masteries you need, particularly with the new zones, if not before. And if you’re unwilling to do any of it, or don’t like any of it, I’m not really sure what can be done.

The problem with leveling the masteries for casual players is information that is not available at the time of decision. Consider that casual players aren’t expected to level all masteries. Consider the game recognizes this and thus is designed in a way that there are important masteries and not so important masteries. Consider the game provides enough easy mastery points for the important masteries.

But how on earth should a new player, a casual player, know which mastery is important or not so important? How on earth he should know that completely maxing the gliding mastery is very important and has a deep impact on his gameplay, while not even starting Exalted Lore isn’t closing too many doors. This is not transmitted by the game. A new player simply starts every mastery, because he doesn’t know the impact.

It’s made even worse by the game messages while playing HoT maps: “you need xyz mastery to eat mushrooms, to use this item, to talk to this NPC, to open that chest, etc…” The player is confused deliberately and is made leveling the wrong masteries.

So It gets slower and slower while he levels all, then the easy mastery points exhaust, and in the end he isn’t able to reach something like Ley Line gliding.

Silmar Alech.4305:

The problem with leveling the masteries for casual players is information that is not available at the time of decision. Consider that casual players aren’t expected to level all masteries. Consider the game recognizes this and thus is designed in a way that there are important masteries and not so important masteries. Consider the game provides enough easy mastery points for the important masteries.

But how on earth should a new player, a casual player, know which mastery is important or not so important? How on earth he should know that completely maxing the gliding mastery is very important and has a deep impact on his gameplay, while not even starting Exalted Lore isn’t closing too many doors. This is not transmitted by the game. A new player simply starts every mastery, because he doesn’t know the impact.

It’s made even worse by the game messages while playing HoT maps: “you need xyz mastery to eat mushrooms, to use this item, to talk to this NPC, to open that chest, etc…” The player is confused deliberately and is made leveling the wrong masteries.

So It gets slower and slower while he levels all, then the easy mastery points exhaust, and in the end he isn’t able to reach something like Ley Line gliding.

Are you saying a casual player is incapable of using the wiki or asking a friend, or doing minimal research? Because it sounds like it.

In my experience casual players come in many shapes and sizes. Some of them ask questions or read a website. Plenty of casuals do go to dulfy. Obviously some don’t as well.

But you can play this game without leyline gliding at all. It’s absolutely possible.

Ask three friends and you get three different answers.
If there were less wrong ways to go, it would help. The game is open at the wrong places.
And yes, of course you can play without leveling masteries. But it isn’t fun. And players play the game for fun, I suppose.

Silmar Alech.4305:

Ask three friends and you get three different answers.
If there were less wrong ways to go, it would help. The game is open at the wrong places.
And yes, of course you can play without leveling masteries. But it isn’t fun. And players play the game for fun, I suppose.

The bottom line is, if you ask three friends, NONE of them will tell you max exalted lore, nuhoch lore, or itzel lore. This isn’t realiistic

In fact, virtually everyone I know maxes gliding first now, before anything else, completely ignoring stuff like nuhoch lore, but even back then, I don’t remember anyone ever advising anyone to level the other masteries first.

For as long back as you can look for advice, and the advice has been there, everyone has said level the stuff you need for the stories and gliding. You can get three different opinions maybe on what to level after that, but that’s a completely different story. Sorry I’m not buying this at all.

Silmar Alech.4305:

The problem with leveling the masteries for casual players is information that is not available at the time of decision. Consider that casual players aren’t expected to level all masteries. Consider the game recognizes this and thus is designed in a way that there are important masteries and not so important masteries. Consider the game provides enough easy mastery points for the important masteries.

But how on earth should a new player, a casual player, know which mastery is important or not so important? How on earth he should know that completely maxing the gliding mastery is very important and has a deep impact on his gameplay, while not even starting Exalted Lore isn’t closing too many doors. This is not transmitted by the game. A new player simply starts every mastery, because he doesn’t know the impact.

It’s made even worse by the game messages while playing HoT maps: “you need xyz mastery to eat mushrooms, to use this item, to talk to this NPC, to open that chest, etc…” The player is confused deliberately and is made leveling the wrong masteries.

So It gets slower and slower while he levels all, then the easy mastery points exhaust, and in the end he isn’t able to reach something like Ley Line gliding.

I completely agree. So many answers are “use the wiki” but everything I’ve read indicates that the VAST majority of MMO players do not consult outside sources. This might be due to time constraints or because they don’t even realize that it is necessary to consult an outside source if they aren’t doing something really difficult like raiding. I mean how would they even know that they should consult the wiki before training Masteries? I’ve never encountered a Mastery Point type system in any other MMO. If you need to train skills for your character it usually only requires XP, maybe after doing something to open the path initially. Most games with finite points to distribute is at character creation and you know exactly how many points you have and whether you will ever receive any more.

In GW2 there is no system to tell you how many MP there are in the game or how many are left to acquire. So there is no way to even understand that you should be concerned about how to spend them.

And, the wiki doesn’t really help you decide. It tells you what the various Masteries let you do but it doesn’t help you to know how important each of those things are. It would take a lot of research if you didn’t know about everything in the game yet. Like go to Itzel Lore: none of the individual masteries say whether they are important. Then it says: “Additional uses: Bouncing Mushrooms to continue In Their Footsteps story step; Itzel Leadership for Orders backpack collections”. Ok, Bouncing Mushrooms to continue the story seems important, but what is “Orders backpack collections” (if you’re new)? No link so I type “orders backpack” in the wiki, the only reference directs me back to the same reference. Now how do I figure out if “orders backpack” is important? I google “gw2 orders backpack” and get a lot of backpack pages but nothing clear. So using the wiki isn’t that helpful either.

Djinn.9245:

Silmar Alech.4305:

The problem with leveling the masteries for casual players is information that is not available at the time of decision. Consider that casual players aren’t expected to level all masteries. Consider the game recognizes this and thus is designed in a way that there are important masteries and not so important masteries. Consider the game provides enough easy mastery points for the important masteries.

But how on earth should a new player, a casual player, know which mastery is important or not so important? How on earth he should know that completely maxing the gliding mastery is very important and has a deep impact on his gameplay, while not even starting Exalted Lore isn’t closing too many doors. This is not transmitted by the game. A new player simply starts every mastery, because he doesn’t know the impact.

It’s made even worse by the game messages while playing HoT maps: “you need xyz mastery to eat mushrooms, to use this item, to talk to this NPC, to open that chest, etc…” The player is confused deliberately and is made leveling the wrong masteries.

So It gets slower and slower while he levels all, then the easy mastery points exhaust, and in the end he isn’t able to reach something like Ley Line gliding.

I completely agree. So many answers are “use the wiki” but everything I’ve read indicates that the VAST majority of MMO players do not consult outside sources. This might be due to time constraints or because they don’t even realize that it is necessary to consult an outside source if they aren’t doing something really difficult like raiding. I mean how would they even know that they should consult the wiki before training Masteries? I’ve never encountered a Mastery Point type system in any other MMO. If you need to train skills for your character it usually only requires XP, maybe after doing something to open the path initially. Most games with finite points to distribute is at character creation and you know exactly how many points you have and whether you will ever receive any more.

In GW2 there is no system to tell you how many MP there are in the game or how many are left to acquire. So there is no way to even understand that you should be concerned about how to spend them.

And, the wiki doesn’t really help you decide. It tells you what the various Masteries let you do but it doesn’t help you to know how important each of those things are. It would take a lot of research if you didn’t know about everything in the game yet. Like go to Itzel Lore: none of the individual masteries say whether they are important. Then it says: “Additional uses: Bouncing Mushrooms to continue In Their Footsteps story step; Itzel Leadership for Orders backpack collections”. Ok, Bouncing Mushrooms to continue the story seems important, but what is “Orders backpack collections” (if you’re new)? No link so I type “orders backpack” in the wiki, the only reference directs me back to the same reference. Now how do I figure out if “orders backpack” is important? I google “gw2 orders backpack” and get a lot of backpack pages but nothing clear. So using the wiki isn’t that helpful either.

I don’t expect to most people playing an MMO to go to the wiki to look stuff up but I do see in game that most players, the large majority, do have a guild tag. I know in my guild we didn’t get many complaints about people training the wrong masteries because people made use of their guild.

It’s really bad that a small percentage of the population randomly threw points around without a clue as to where to put them, but my experience, and I have a lot of it, shows that most people put it into gliding anyway, which is where most people need it. It helps that if they don’t change anything gliding in the default.

And I’m sure a small percentage of people got caught off guard, but I’ve been around a long time and I’ve seen a whole lot of complaints about HOT and this is one I’ve very rarely seen.

I guarantee you if there was a bigger problem we’d have heard more about it.

Vayne.8563:

I believe the people saying the map is dead are trying to use that to give emphasis to their own negative opinion of HOT without regard for what’s actually happening on HoT maps.

I believe that at least some of the complaints happen because ANet’s mega-server algorithms quite literally kill the map. Sometimes the closing-map experience can chain. Ironically, it’s less likely to chain when there are fewer map copies to begin with.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Vayne.8563:

I believe the people saying the map is dead are trying to use that to give emphasis to their own negative opinion of HOT without regard for what’s actually happening on HoT maps.

I believe that at least some of the complaints happen because ANet’s mega-server algorithms quite literally kill the map. Sometimes the closing-map experience can chain. Ironically, it’s less likely to chain when there are fewer map copies to begin with.

I don’t know how much time you spend in HOT but I literally have been in HoT for 30 hours within the past week and I have yet to find a single dead map, without using LFG at all.

I’ve been helping new guildies get their elite spec unlocked among other things.

I’m not saying there are a million people at every event, but there are very very few events where there aren’t people enough to do the events. This doesn’t equal a dead map.

I’m specifically taking note of what I’m doing and when due to the claims of certain posters. The assertion that the zones are dead are pretty much wrong. The only time I’ve encountered a dead zone recently was when I didn’t reboot right away and a bunch of other people did. Aside from that, dead zones are the exception not the rule.

Edit: As an example, right now I’ve done the entire scar lane event chain with strangers. We’re on the next to last event. There are five of us. There are a lot of events in this zone. Not sure how anyone could call this dead. No LFG, no changing maps. Just happened upon it.

slashlizardy.9167:

Yes that too, when I see the word adventures, I’m thinking more of a mini-dungeon, than I am thinking of mobile phone games.

We can only hope they learned their lesson and we will not see them again. Or if we do they will not be tied to something like the mastery system.

I was practically cheering when we saw the first LS3 map and there was not an adventure icon in sight. Going back to my earlier comment I would love to see masteries reworked though, like losing all that xp if you run out of points.

^^ personally i want choice, and that means different styles of maps. 90% of maps being flat is more than enough for me. Horses for courses and choice wins the day, not same old same old.

@Vayne.8563

I understand you really like HOT.

I said i also agree that there is alot of mastery points and it isnt hard if you “want” to get them.

Thats not the discussion, you brought up a guild member who liked exploring maps and didnt like the other modes.

Thats what made GW2 special, if you didnt like PvP- WvW- farming- dungeons-raids- exploring it didnt matter because there was something for everyone. At no point did anyone HAVE TO do something to play what they liked.

Anet threw out mini games and raids which people will not like and Anet tied it to masterys and AP so you are splitting the community.

I for example finished W1 of raids rather easily got a Xera kill, got to plat 2 and finished in plat 1 of S5 of PvP. Have nearly all the WvW AP done and guess what, i HATE the mastery system.

Im playing the new area and there is a cool spider man mastery, i got to unlock and cant because i dont have enough mastery points.

THIS IS A HORRIBLE DESIGN, i am now FORCED to go back and play a area of the game i did not like to get the new shiny and guess what i didnt do it. I played the new map without the new skill and when i log in i dont go into the new map since i cant use the skill.

I was as high as 700 on the AP leader board, i have almost 29k AP, ive played this game in and out and mastery are cheap walls of game play.

You can say its easy and i agree but like i said earlier, if we tied mastery points to WvW levels and PvP matches played people would scream till the cows came home. Since its PvE there are gonna be people who support it like yourself which is fine.

But you have to understand that its not creative, not good design and does not create a interactive system.

If Anet wanted masterys to be special or new skins, it wouldnt be complete the 4 hearts every day or gain XP to unlock a mastery nad find MP to unlock the skill.

It would something interesting with in the design of game play.

Vayne.8563:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Vayne.8563:

I believe the people saying the map is dead are trying to use that to give emphasis to their own negative opinion of HOT without regard for what’s actually happening on HoT maps.

I believe that at least some of the complaints happen because ANet’s mega-server algorithms quite literally kill the map. Sometimes the closing-map experience can chain. Ironically, it’s less likely to chain when there are fewer map copies to begin with.

I don’t know how much time you spend in HOT but I literally have been in HoT for 30 hours within the past week and I have yet to find a single dead map, without using LFG at all.

I’ve been helping new guildies get their elite spec unlocked among other things.

I’m not saying there are a million people at every event, but there are very very few events where there aren’t people enough to do the events. This doesn’t equal a dead map.

I’m specifically taking note of what I’m doing and when due to the claims of certain posters. The assertion that the zones are dead are pretty much wrong. The only time I’ve encountered a dead zone recently was when I didn’t reboot right away and a bunch of other people did. Aside from that, dead zones are the exception not the rule.

Edit: As an example, right now I’ve done the entire scar lane event chain with strangers. We’re on the next to last event. There are five of us. There are a lot of events in this zone. Not sure how anyone could call this dead. No LFG, no changing maps. Just happened upon it.

Just last night I was in a VB map and got the “Map is closing” message. That’s what I mean by a map that mega-server algorithms are killing — by closing. Psychologically, that map is perceived as dead. When that experience chains, it creates a perception. If you want to counter perception, it helps to understand what is being perceived, and why.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Vayne.8563:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Vayne.8563:

I believe the people saying the map is dead are trying to use that to give emphasis to their own negative opinion of HOT without regard for what’s actually happening on HoT maps.

I believe that at least some of the complaints happen because ANet’s mega-server algorithms quite literally kill the map. Sometimes the closing-map experience can chain. Ironically, it’s less likely to chain when there are fewer map copies to begin with.

I don’t know how much time you spend in HOT but I literally have been in HoT for 30 hours within the past week and I have yet to find a single dead map, without using LFG at all.

I’ve been helping new guildies get their elite spec unlocked among other things.

I’m not saying there are a million people at every event, but there are very very few events where there aren’t people enough to do the events. This doesn’t equal a dead map.

I’m specifically taking note of what I’m doing and when due to the claims of certain posters. The assertion that the zones are dead are pretty much wrong. The only time I’ve encountered a dead zone recently was when I didn’t reboot right away and a bunch of other people did. Aside from that, dead zones are the exception not the rule.

Edit: As an example, right now I’ve done the entire scar lane event chain with strangers. We’re on the next to last event. There are five of us. There are a lot of events in this zone. Not sure how anyone could call this dead. No LFG, no changing maps. Just happened upon it.

Just last night I was in a VB map and got the “Map is closing” message. That’s what I mean by a map that mega-server algorithms are killing — by closing. Psychologically, that map is perceived as dead. When that experience chains, it creates a perception. If you want to counter perception, it helps to understand what is being perceived, and why.

This.

More often than not when I log into a HoT map I get that message. It does affect perception of the map.

Ashen.2907:

More often than not when I log into a HoT map I get that message. It does affect perception of the map.

Yes, I am glad I got the HOT mastery points I wanted (I assume the next expansion will use a 3rd type) because it will be next to impossible for players to get ones that are tied to metaevents.

Random thought: pay up some gold and you can get a commander tag. Buy HOT and with CT masteries you can get an apple tag. Why not give everyone a small dot on the minimap/map (like for your allies)? You would see if a map was busy and where people were concentrated.

Djinn.9245:

LOL – same people saying the same thing “the maps aren’t dead”. Yet DIFFERENT people keep starting threads deploring that the HoT maps are dead! Hmmm, I see a pattern here.

Maybe the people who keep saying the maps aren’t dead know how to find full maps! Maybe the people who say the maps are dead don’t know how to find full maps because it isn’t told anywhere in-game. I see the OP being criticized because he doesn’t know how the DS meta works. Where is it explained in-game? And if you get kicked out of the DS map because you died and then can’t get into the main map because it’s full, “try again”.

Yes you are right HoT defenders, there is nothing wrong with the HoT maps. Everything is working perfectly. /sarcasm

One has to wonder if Anet fully thought out the consequences of their design. I certainly hope not because its pretty bad if they designed it this way on purpose.

Yea they need to find a way to remove multi map or server taxi and remove the META from the game. It’s hard for new players some even new to mmorpg’s to handle such META endorsed gameplay that isnt part of a tutorial.

I can’t get most ofmy mastery or map completion done in HoT beause of the META.. People kicking you from map events if you are not the correct class or if you die. It’s all the more depressing when you do get into a good map and you get told to leave because you dont have a mushroom mastery.

Please find a way to remove this kind of behavior or the META.

How is it possible to be kicked from a map event?

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

How is it possible to be kicked from a map event?

People glare at you real hard.

Very unsettling.

People have been known to X out of the game reflexively upon receiving “the stare”

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

How is it possible to be kicked from a map event?

At a guess it’s probably being kicked from a squad, which in the event of DC might mean being unable to get to the map one was on. Bit of a stretch, but about all I can think of.

Ashen.2907:

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

How is it possible to be kicked from a map event?

People glare at you real hard.

Very unsettling.

People have been known to X out of the game reflexively upon receiving “the stare”

These people must be light as a feather and made of glass… Interesting.

IndigoSundown.5419:

At a guess it’s probably being kicked from a squad

or simply being bullied into leaving.

If you actually want to kick people out of the map however, join a zerg guild and spawn your own private instance.

Ashen.2907:

Lite Ning Strike.5203:

Ok where does this say masteries will be hidden behind Mini Games?

“To train a specific Mastery track, you must first unlock it by spending Mastery points. Mastery points are awarded for completing various pieces of game content. Things like completing a chapter in your personal story, completing certain achievements, reaching hard-to-find locations, overcoming challenging encounters, excelling at adventures found within the Heart of Maguuma, or earning 100% completion for a map will award Mastery points. Each Mastery point can be earned once per account, so while Mastery points allow you to unlock Mastery tracks, they are also an indicator of how much of the game you’ve experienced. In fact, once you have unlocked the ability to train Masteries, your nameplate will display the number of Mastery points you have gained rather than your level. Mastery points can be gained at any level but cannot be spent until level 80.”

Also when I pre-purchased Heart of Thorns I’m pretty sure this wan’t available (not that I would have picked up on mini games from this description) since I ordered day 1 of being available.

Hopefully you will not prepurchase in the future. Wait, see if it matches your preferences, and then buy.

And that solves the issue regarding “Masteries” how? Whether I pre-purchase or don’t doesn’t have anything to do with Masteries hidden behind mini games.

I understand the thought behind it (don’t give them your money if you don’t like it) but I love the main theme of the game I just want to get my opinion thoughts out there so hopefully they won’t make the same mistakes (again my opinion) on the new expansion.

Thanks Ashen

Vayne.8563:

Djinn.9245:

Faaris.8013:

Vayne.8563:

Most people want mastery points but not everyone likes the content you have to do enough to get those mastery points. If those players force themselves to do that content, they’re not going to be having fun, even though the got the reward.

That’s how I feel about all those mini games in HoT. I will eventually do them for the mastery points, but they are a duty and not fun.

Last time the karka mini game was a daily. I entered the arena and we were two (at times three) players who just sat down at the side and waited until it’s over. I tried to enter and leave immediately, but you have to finish to make it count as daily. You also have to use a skill sometimes to not get kicked.

Most stupid thing in the whole game. But the fourth daily was something worse.

So yes, the fun is not the activity itself, but the reward. If both is fun, that’s great, and most of the things in GW2 are like that for me. Otherwise I wouldn’t be here. But as you said, something that is fun for one group is despised by another. I don’t mind some grind., but many Tyria Mastery Points are no fun to get.

The problem with arcade games is that IMO they don’t belong in an RPG. Sure, a lot of people like them, but a lot of people like solitaire – that doesn’t mean Anet should put solitaire in GW2. If people like arcade games, or solitaire, or Mario Bros they should go play those games which exist elsewhere.

Nothing wrong with putting arcade games in an RPG as long as the rewards for them are seperated from everything else. I have no problem with Sanctum Sprint because it’s self contained. It interferes with nothing. If I want the achievements for it I can do it, but if I ignore it, it’s really no cost to me.

Adventures are a different animal.

I agree add all the min games you want just don’t put Masteries or other things used to advance the game behind them. Same goes for jumping puzzles give these and mini games a big box of shiny’s (heck put Ascended items in the box) just not things along the line of Masteries or even Hero Challenges that directly affect game play.