Guild Wars 2

Lite Ning Strike.5203:

Ashen.2907:

Lite Ning Strike.5203:

Ok where does this say masteries will be hidden behind Mini Games?

“To train a specific Mastery track, you must first unlock it by spending Mastery points. Mastery points are awarded for completing various pieces of game content. Things like completing a chapter in your personal story, completing certain achievements, reaching hard-to-find locations, overcoming challenging encounters, excelling at adventures found within the Heart of Maguuma, or earning 100% completion for a map will award Mastery points. Each Mastery point can be earned once per account, so while Mastery points allow you to unlock Mastery tracks, they are also an indicator of how much of the game you’ve experienced. In fact, once you have unlocked the ability to train Masteries, your nameplate will display the number of Mastery points you have gained rather than your level. Mastery points can be gained at any level but cannot be spent until level 80.”

Also when I pre-purchased Heart of Thorns I’m pretty sure this wan’t available (not that I would have picked up on mini games from this description) since I ordered day 1 of being available.

Hopefully you will not prepurchase in the future. Wait, see if it matches your preferences, and then buy.

And that solves the issue regarding “Masteries” how? Whether I pre-purchase or don’t doesn’t have anything to do with Masteries hidden behind mini games.

I understand the thought behind it (don’t give them your money if you don’t like it) but I love the main theme of the game I just want to get my opinion thoughts out there so hopefully they won’t make the same mistakes (again my opinion) on the new expansion.

Thanks Ashen

You opened your post with a question about where Anet advertised masteries as being hidden behind minigames and closed with commentary about what was said when you prepurchased HoT. Everything in between was quoting someone else. My post was not intended to solve, retroactively, your issue with masteries. I responded to what you said, not to an issue perhaps raised in another post or something of the sort.

As to how my point might address similar situations in the future:

Prepurchasing insulates the company from consequences, at least in the short term, of their decisions. By giving them your money without knowing what the product will be in its release form you have financed those development decisions that you dislike (hate, despise, etc). A complaint on the forum, in hopes of change, generally, will not have the same impact as a decision to not buy until after desired changes have been made.

A player base that says, in effect, “we have given you our money up front, product sight unseen, and you have no reason to believe that we won’t do so again, but we don’t like feature X,” is likely to have less impact than a player base saying, “you have to prove that your product is worth our money before you are going to get it.”

To me, it sounds a bit like cutting one’s nose off to spite one’s face. Or, perhaps, throwing the baby out with the bath water.

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

To me, it sounds a bit like cutting one’s nose off to spite one’s face. Or, perhaps, throwing the baby out with the bath water.

Assuming that you’re responding to Ashen, I have to say that I agree with him. Even if it turns out that I like some parts of an expansion, I’m not going to give Anet that satisfaction of knowing that I (and hopefully whoever has the same opinion) will just purchase an expansion sight-unseen. I don’t trust Anet anymore. If I end up liking parts of an expansion I might buy it after release or I might wait for it to be on sale depending on the like / dislike ratio.

I pre-purchased HoT because I loved GW2 prior to it and assumed the expansion would be more of what I loved. I won’t make the mistake of “assuming” again.

Fantastic!

And I will pre-purchase because I know there will be more that I like than dislike. And because I believe in supporting the developer.

As always, each to their own. =)

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

Fantastic!

And I will pre-purchase because I know there will be more that I like than dislike. And because I believe in supporting the developer.

As always, each to their own. =)

I completely understand. I am constantly puzzled by people who “brag” that they never pay anything in an MMO. I don’t think they grasp the concept.

But I support the developer by paying for things I actually like. I have spent plenty of money in GW2 apart from HoT and I’m sure I will continue to do that whether I pay for the next expansion or not.

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

To me, it sounds a bit like cutting one’s nose off to spite one’s face. Or, perhaps, throwing the baby out with the bath water.

Then I did a horrible job of expressing my thoughts on the matter and apologize.

I suppose it really comes down to wanting the ability to hold my wallet up as an incentive for a merchant to address my desires as a consumer. If they already have my money it seems possible that they are less likely to care about those concerns. So I, generally, do not prepurchase games any more. I wait until they are released so that I can get a non-hyped sense of the game before buying.

That said, I do believe in supporting a company which produces a product I enjoy. I have spent significantly more on GW2 than I would have on a sub based game. I would probably spend more if the art direction for the gemstore weapon sets was more appealing to me.

Djinn.9245:

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

To me, it sounds a bit like cutting one’s nose off to spite one’s face. Or, perhaps, throwing the baby out with the bath water.

Assuming that you’re responding to Ashen, I have to say that I agree with him. Even if it turns out that I like some parts of an expansion, I’m not going to give Anet that satisfaction of knowing that I (and hopefully whoever has the same opinion) will just purchase an expansion sight-unseen. I don’t trust Anet anymore. If I end up liking parts of an expansion I might buy it after release or I might wait for it to be on sale depending on the like / dislike ratio.

I pre-purchased HoT because I loved GW2 prior to it and assumed the expansion would be more of what I loved. I won’t make the mistake of “assuming” again.

I agree Djinn — I prepurchased 4 copies of HoT assuming it would be at least as half as good as Core, 2 for me and 2 for guildees. There is no way I will trust Anet to put together a good expansion to core, that will encourage me to prepurchase even 1 copy.

slashlizardy.9167:

Djinn.9245:

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

To me, it sounds a bit like cutting one’s nose off to spite one’s face. Or, perhaps, throwing the baby out with the bath water.

Assuming that you’re responding to Ashen, I have to say that I agree with him. Even if it turns out that I like some parts of an expansion, I’m not going to give Anet that satisfaction of knowing that I (and hopefully whoever has the same opinion) will just purchase an expansion sight-unseen. I don’t trust Anet anymore. If I end up liking parts of an expansion I might buy it after release or I might wait for it to be on sale depending on the like / dislike ratio.

I pre-purchased HoT because I loved GW2 prior to it and assumed the expansion would be more of what I loved. I won’t make the mistake of “assuming” again.

I agree Djinn — I prepurchased 4 copies of HoT assuming it would be at least as half as good as Core, 2 for me and 2 for guildees. There is no way I will trust Anet to put together a good expansion to core, that will encourage me to prepurchase even 1 copy.

Where as some of us, on the other hand, see HoT as an improvement to the game and are more likely to prepurchase the expansion.

Vayne.8563:

Where as some of us, on the other hand, see HoT as an improvement to the game and are more likely to prepurchase the expansion.

Like, how did you even play this game without gliding? Therer really is no question for me when the expansion comes. Only reason to not get it would be if for some reason I move to a place without Internet.

Gliding and autoloot is what made HoT bearable, and I don’t know what anet can do to top them.

slashlizardy.9167:

Gliding and autoloot is what made HoT bearable, and I don’t know what anet can do to top them.

Actually by itself neither of those things would have necessarily saved the game for me long term, because I love the open world, but it’s just too easy. More too easy zones would not have satisfied me.

HoT offers me something the core game doesn’t, so when I want to relax I can go to the core game, but when I want to actually play I can go to HoT.

Nothing to do with gliding or autoloot though those are great too. I love the designs of the HoT zones. I think VB and TD in particular are brilliant.

And on topic, the mastery system is something I quite like as well, and I don’t think it needs much changing going forward.

The mastery collection is terrible, see you and I like different things about HoT, and that’s okay. Of all the JP’s, HP’s, MP’s, events, only about 20% of them will I consider great, and so will you, and they might be different to each of us. So there is no way they can design them to appeal to all. But to design a system that locks a player into doing the 30% -40% that doesn’t appeal to them, in order to get xp, that is terrible game design.

Vayne.8563:

And on topic, the mastery system is something I quite like as well, and I don’t think it needs much changing going forward.

I’m fine with the mastery system, but it’s not perfect. They could have avoided a lot of trouble if they had made different choices.

Basic gliding, updrafts, and bounce mushrooms are critical to navigation in HoT. They should have ensured that you receive these masteries BEFORE entering Verdant Brink for the first time.

Itzel poison lore. I hate this skill. It serves literally no purpose beyond gating content. Poor design.

Mastery points from adventures. I don’t necessarily mind gaining mastery points from these mini-games, but the games themselves I find utterly unappealing. I would have appreciated more alternatives. Too many points were locked behind these games.

I also wouldn’t have linked the post-cap experience reward (spirit shards) to the mastery system. It seems to me that gaining points that do absolutely nothing for the player is a situation to be avoided.

I really don’t think any of these choices would have killed the mastery system for those who currently enjoy it, but I think it would have made a difference to those who dislike the current system. A QoL upgrade, if you will.

It may just boil down to the fact that I just play for fun now. I have all I really want in the game. 11 Legendaries and about to finish a 12th. And I just solely play for fun now. I don’t have to do anything that isn’t fun…

AliamRationem.5172:

Vayne.8563:

And on topic, the mastery system is something I quite like as well, and I don’t think it needs much changing going forward.

I’m fine with the mastery system, but it’s not perfect. They could have avoided a lot of trouble if they had made different choices.

Basic gliding, updrafts, and bounce mushrooms are critical to navigation in HoT. They should have ensured that you receive these masteries BEFORE entering Verdant Brink for the first time.

Itzel poison lore. I hate this skill. It serves literally no purpose beyond gating content. Poor design.

Mastery points from adventures. I don’t necessarily mind gaining mastery points from these mini-games, but the games themselves I find utterly unappealing. I would have appreciated more alternatives. Too many points were locked behind these games.

I also wouldn’t have linked the post-cap experience reward (spirit shards) to the mastery system. It seems to me that gaining points that do absolutely nothing for the player is a situation to be avoided.

I really don’t think any of these choices would have killed the mastery system for those who currently enjoy it, but I think it would have made a difference to those who dislike the current system. A QoL upgrade, if you will.

Yea a QoL upgrade would be appreciated. Maybe even turn in 5 spirit shards for a Mastery Point, to allow progression again…

slashlizardy.9167:

AliamRationem.5172:

Vayne.8563:

And on topic, the mastery system is something I quite like as well, and I don’t think it needs much changing going forward.

I’m fine with the mastery system, but it’s not perfect. They could have avoided a lot of trouble if they had made different choices.

Basic gliding, updrafts, and bounce mushrooms are critical to navigation in HoT. They should have ensured that you receive these masteries BEFORE entering Verdant Brink for the first time.

Itzel poison lore. I hate this skill. It serves literally no purpose beyond gating content. Poor design.

Mastery points from adventures. I don’t necessarily mind gaining mastery points from these mini-games, but the games themselves I find utterly unappealing. I would have appreciated more alternatives. Too many points were locked behind these games.

I also wouldn’t have linked the post-cap experience reward (spirit shards) to the mastery system. It seems to me that gaining points that do absolutely nothing for the player is a situation to be avoided.

I really don’t think any of these choices would have killed the mastery system for those who currently enjoy it, but I think it would have made a difference to those who dislike the current system. A QoL upgrade, if you will.

Yea a QoL upgrade would be appreciated. Maybe even turn in 5 spirit shards for a Mastery Point, to allow progression again…

5 Spirit shards for a mastery point? No way. I have almost 6000 spirit shards right now. I’d have every mastery point the moment the new game launched, and herein lies the problem.

While you want something quick and painless, only doing stuff you enjoy (which would be different for everyone), if you don’t slow down progress in an expansion, a group of people, probably a large group, will play until they unlock everything and go to a different game. Those people are on the opposite end of the spectrum to you.

The problem is the faster people do their thing and leave, the less chance of them spending any money in the gem store. This is how my son’s played.

They stayed long enough to finish a legendary and they left. But while they were there, they thought nothing of spending money in the gem store. Keep in mind, they’re in their mid 20s.

So the point is, if masteries are too fast easy, they don’t end up serving the purpose for which they were created.

There are always two sets of realities…what’s good for me, and what’s good for the game. I tend to only object to things I feel are bad for the game over all. I think in general, mastery points as they are are better for the game than mastery points that you can get pretty much at will. At that point they serve no purpose at all.

Masteries may be intended as horizontal progression, but they still are progression. Something for you to spend time earning for your character that represents advancement of some sort or another. They will not, cannot, fulfill that role, in my opinion, if you can log into the game and instantly complete that progression.

Vayne.8563:

slashlizardy.9167:

Djinn.9245:

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

To me, it sounds a bit like cutting one’s nose off to spite one’s face. Or, perhaps, throwing the baby out with the bath water.

Assuming that you’re responding to Ashen, I have to say that I agree with him. Even if it turns out that I like some parts of an expansion, I’m not going to give Anet that satisfaction of knowing that I (and hopefully whoever has the same opinion) will just purchase an expansion sight-unseen. I don’t trust Anet anymore. If I end up liking parts of an expansion I might buy it after release or I might wait for it to be on sale depending on the like / dislike ratio.

I pre-purchased HoT because I loved GW2 prior to it and assumed the expansion would be more of what I loved. I won’t make the mistake of “assuming” again.

I agree Djinn — I prepurchased 4 copies of HoT assuming it would be at least as half as good as Core, 2 for me and 2 for guildees. There is no way I will trust Anet to put together a good expansion to core, that will encourage me to prepurchase even 1 copy.

Where as some of us, on the other hand, see HoT as an improvement to the game and are more likely to prepurchase the expansion.

As someone who mostly PvP and WvW, i dont see it as a improvement.

After paying $200 for core and HOT and spending a little bit of cash for some items because i really enjoyed Core GW2.

I think i will wait on this one.

Bunker Wars 2.000005 even more bunkers then the HOT release !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

kdaddy.5431:

Vayne.8563:

slashlizardy.9167:

Djinn.9245:

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

To me, it sounds a bit like cutting one’s nose off to spite one’s face. Or, perhaps, throwing the baby out with the bath water.

Assuming that you’re responding to Ashen, I have to say that I agree with him. Even if it turns out that I like some parts of an expansion, I’m not going to give Anet that satisfaction of knowing that I (and hopefully whoever has the same opinion) will just purchase an expansion sight-unseen. I don’t trust Anet anymore. If I end up liking parts of an expansion I might buy it after release or I might wait for it to be on sale depending on the like / dislike ratio.

I pre-purchased HoT because I loved GW2 prior to it and assumed the expansion would be more of what I loved. I won’t make the mistake of “assuming” again.

I agree Djinn — I prepurchased 4 copies of HoT assuming it would be at least as half as good as Core, 2 for me and 2 for guildees. There is no way I will trust Anet to put together a good expansion to core, that will encourage me to prepurchase even 1 copy.

Where as some of us, on the other hand, see HoT as an improvement to the game and are more likely to prepurchase the expansion.

As someone who mostly PvP and WvW, i dont see it as a improvement.

After paying $200 for core and HOT and spending a little bit of cash for some items because i really enjoyed Core GW2.

I think i will wait on this one.

Bunker Wars 2.000005 even more bunkers then the HOT release !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I’m relatively sure that if you add people who predominantly play PvP with people who predominantly WvW, they’d still be far less than people who predominantly PvE. It’s okay that some people don’t like the game. That’s fine.

The question is if most people like it or not.

HoT did make some serious missteps, though, only some of which have been corrected (in my opinion).

The mastery system, in my opinion, was not one of the serious mistakes.

Vayne.8563:

kdaddy.5431:

Vayne.8563:

slashlizardy.9167:

Djinn.9245:

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

To me, it sounds a bit like cutting one’s nose off to spite one’s face. Or, perhaps, throwing the baby out with the bath water.

Assuming that you’re responding to Ashen, I have to say that I agree with him. Even if it turns out that I like some parts of an expansion, I’m not going to give Anet that satisfaction of knowing that I (and hopefully whoever has the same opinion) will just purchase an expansion sight-unseen. I don’t trust Anet anymore. If I end up liking parts of an expansion I might buy it after release or I might wait for it to be on sale depending on the like / dislike ratio.

I pre-purchased HoT because I loved GW2 prior to it and assumed the expansion would be more of what I loved. I won’t make the mistake of “assuming” again.

I agree Djinn — I prepurchased 4 copies of HoT assuming it would be at least as half as good as Core, 2 for me and 2 for guildees. There is no way I will trust Anet to put together a good expansion to core, that will encourage me to prepurchase even 1 copy.

Where as some of us, on the other hand, see HoT as an improvement to the game and are more likely to prepurchase the expansion.

As someone who mostly PvP and WvW, i dont see it as a improvement.

After paying $200 for core and HOT and spending a little bit of cash for some items because i really enjoyed Core GW2.

I think i will wait on this one.

Bunker Wars 2.000005 even more bunkers then the HOT release !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I’m relatively sure that if you add people who predominantly play PvP with people who predominantly WvW, they’d still be far less than people who predominantly PvE. It’s okay that some people don’t like the game. That’s fine.

The question is if most people like it or not.

HoT did make some serious missteps, though, only some of which have been corrected (in my opinion).

The mastery system, in my opinion, was not one of the serious mistakes.

I agree that its fine, heck its Anet game and you and many others enjoy it.

All im saying is it didnt have to be this way.

Instead of 3 meta maps there could of been 2, i love the DS meta even though ive only done it twice and i really like VB.

That doesnt change that Anet really screwed up PvP, WvW and casual PvE players experience with HOT. yes they fixed some of the issues later but when you charge $100 for a expansion you expect some things to be ready and nice to play out the box. Alot of players didnt like waiting 1 year for them to be able to get things that they should of got day 1.

Im just saying that GW2 could of been huge but HOT was a big step down from core GW2 and imo alot of players will wait to see the expansion before jumping in like the majority of us did last time.

kdaddy.5431:

Vayne.8563:

kdaddy.5431:

Vayne.8563:

slashlizardy.9167:

Djinn.9245:

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

To me, it sounds a bit like cutting one’s nose off to spite one’s face. Or, perhaps, throwing the baby out with the bath water.

Assuming that you’re responding to Ashen, I have to say that I agree with him. Even if it turns out that I like some parts of an expansion, I’m not going to give Anet that satisfaction of knowing that I (and hopefully whoever has the same opinion) will just purchase an expansion sight-unseen. I don’t trust Anet anymore. If I end up liking parts of an expansion I might buy it after release or I might wait for it to be on sale depending on the like / dislike ratio.

I pre-purchased HoT because I loved GW2 prior to it and assumed the expansion would be more of what I loved. I won’t make the mistake of “assuming” again.

I agree Djinn — I prepurchased 4 copies of HoT assuming it would be at least as half as good as Core, 2 for me and 2 for guildees. There is no way I will trust Anet to put together a good expansion to core, that will encourage me to prepurchase even 1 copy.

Where as some of us, on the other hand, see HoT as an improvement to the game and are more likely to prepurchase the expansion.

As someone who mostly PvP and WvW, i dont see it as a improvement.

After paying $200 for core and HOT and spending a little bit of cash for some items because i really enjoyed Core GW2.

I think i will wait on this one.

Bunker Wars 2.000005 even more bunkers then the HOT release !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I’m relatively sure that if you add people who predominantly play PvP with people who predominantly WvW, they’d still be far less than people who predominantly PvE. It’s okay that some people don’t like the game. That’s fine.

The question is if most people like it or not.

HoT did make some serious missteps, though, only some of which have been corrected (in my opinion).

The mastery system, in my opinion, was not one of the serious mistakes.

I agree that its fine, heck its Anet game and you and many others enjoy it.

All im saying is it didnt have to be this way.

Instead of 3 meta maps there could of been 2, i love the DS meta even though ive only done it twice and i really like VB.

That doesnt change that Anet really screwed up PvP, WvW and casual PvE players experience with HOT. yes they fixed some of the issues later but when you charge $100 for a expansion you expect some things to be ready and nice to play out the box. Alot of players didnt like waiting 1 year for them to be able to get things that they should of got day 1.

Im just saying that GW2 could of been huge but HOT was a big step down from core GW2 and imo alot of players will wait to see the expansion before jumping in like the majority of us did last time.

Actually Anet didn’t really screw up casual PvE. I have a guild full of people who still casually PvE. It’s screwed up maybe for bad players, but not necessarily casual ones.

As for meta maps. well, you can play those maps without ever playing the meta, because most of the time I’m on them, I’m not doing the meta. The only exception to that is Dragon Stand.

But this thread is about mastery points and I don’t think they particularly screwed up anything, regardless of anything else.

Anything to not lock down collection of Mastery Points would be a big improvement. You still have to earn the xp, but Mastery Points in and of themselves is a HoT mess. I used to spend money on this game, but as long as all we have is this HoT mess, I will not be spending any money on it.

slashlizardy.9167:

Anything to not lock down collection of Mastery Points would be a big improvement. You still have to earn the xp, but Mastery Points in and of themselves is a HoT mess. I used to spend money on this game, but as long as all we have is this HoT mess, I will not be spending any money on it.

And I’ll spend more because I’m happy. That’s how it works.

slashlizardy.9167:

Anything to not lock down collection of Mastery Points would be a big improvement. You still have to earn the xp, but Mastery Points in and of themselves is a HoT mess. I used to spend money on this game, but as long as all we have is this HoT mess, I will not be spending any money on it.

I think it’s important for a game to have a structure that nudges players to participate in varied content, even if they sometimes do so only for the reward. “Play the way you want” sounds great as a slogan, but how long are you going to play a game where the goal is simply to gain experience to unlock everything?

Isn’t that the whole point of having alternative methods of acquiring rewards? We do achievements, play different game modes, etc. If we reduce that to simply gaining general experience, we risk making it more of a grind even while it may be more appealing to the subset of players who doesn’t enjoy the particular content in question.

AliamRationem.5172:

slashlizardy.9167:

Anything to not lock down collection of Mastery Points would be a big improvement. You still have to earn the xp, but Mastery Points in and of themselves is a HoT mess. I used to spend money on this game, but as long as all we have is this HoT mess, I will not be spending any money on it.

I think it’s important for a game to have a structure that nudges players to participate in varied content, even if they sometimes do so only for the reward. “Play the way you want” sounds great as a slogan, but how long are you going to play a game where the goal is simply to gain experience to unlock everything?

Isn’t that the whole point of having alternative methods of acquiring rewards? We do achievements, play different game modes, etc. If we reduce that to simply gaining general experience, we risk making it more of a grind even while it may be more appealing to the subset of players who doesn’t enjoy the particular content in question.

Heres what changed, core GW2 had X maps to play.

Orr had all the hard content with the Temples, if you didnt like ORR there was plenty of stuff to do.

There were boss run, JP, hearts to unlock and later harder content like Triple Trouble and Teq.

HOT did not give people multiple places to play which is why everyone has something different to say. Everyone in the game had a way of playing the game and HOT can feel like there is only 1 way to play it.

Your working for “alternative methods” is what people were looking for.

It seems HoT did give multiple places to play. Just like Southsun, Triple Trouble, Tequatl, and others, the new maps of HoT give different (easier) kinds of content.

Not every other person is saying they will wait or not spend. I’ve seen plenty of posts stating they will not only purchase the expansion, they will pre-purchase.

Good luck.

AliamRationem.5172:

slashlizardy.9167:

Anything to not lock down collection of Mastery Points would be a big improvement. You still have to earn the xp, but Mastery Points in and of themselves is a HoT mess. I used to spend money on this game, but as long as all we have is this HoT mess, I will not be spending any money on it.

I think it’s important for a game to have a structure that nudges players to participate in varied content, even if they sometimes do so only for the reward. “Play the way you want” sounds great as a slogan, but how long are you going to play a game where the goal is simply to gain experience to unlock everything?

Isn’t that the whole point of having alternative methods of acquiring rewards? We do achievements, play different game modes, etc. If we reduce that to simply gaining general experience, we risk making it more of a grind even while it may be more appealing to the subset of players who doesn’t enjoy the particular content in question.

Why do you believe that people should be doing something they don’t like during their entertainment time? I completely disagree.

Djinn.9245:

Why do you believe that people should be doing something they don’t like during their entertainment time? I completely disagree.

People need to be encouraged to try different things, otherwise they never will. Forcing people however, and without any alternatives, will only lead to failure. Mastery points for example should have simply been a way to speed up your progress and essentially worth something like 1 million experience each. The problem in doing that is that some people will never change unless forced to, so they’d simply grind and complain about it. Catering to that audience is a very bad idea, however ignoring them will only create bad press, as they’re the ones who rush and are the first to complain when they haven’t actually played. Only the initial launch really matters however, so people only need to be forced for the first few months.

With the next expansion, they should simply blanket nerf HoT to allow the more casual players to get their turn, while those wanting a more challenging experience stick to the latest content. Every other MMO basically does the same, but with vertical progression. For mastery points, the simplest option to implement would likely be dailies, but a future-proof solution would be a repeatable experience track.

Healix.5819:

Djinn.9245:

Why do you believe that people should be doing something they don’t like during their entertainment time? I completely disagree.

People need to be encouraged to try different things, otherwise they never will.

Like my Mommy? Sorry, I’m an adult and can decide to try brocolli or not. And when it comes to my entertainment, I especially don’t need someone else to decide what I should try.

kdaddy.5431:

AliamRationem.5172:

slashlizardy.9167:

Anything to not lock down collection of Mastery Points would be a big improvement. You still have to earn the xp, but Mastery Points in and of themselves is a HoT mess. I used to spend money on this game, but as long as all we have is this HoT mess, I will not be spending any money on it.

I think it’s important for a game to have a structure that nudges players to participate in varied content, even if they sometimes do so only for the reward. “Play the way you want” sounds great as a slogan, but how long are you going to play a game where the goal is simply to gain experience to unlock everything?

Isn’t that the whole point of having alternative methods of acquiring rewards? We do achievements, play different game modes, etc. If we reduce that to simply gaining general experience, we risk making it more of a grind even while it may be more appealing to the subset of players who doesn’t enjoy the particular content in question.

Heres what changed, core GW2 had X maps to play.

Orr had all the hard content with the Temples, if you didnt like ORR there was plenty of stuff to do.

There were boss run, JP, hearts to unlock and later harder content like Triple Trouble and Teq.

HOT did not give people multiple places to play which is why everyone has something different to say. Everyone in the game had a way of playing the game and HOT can feel like there is only 1 way to play it.

Your working for “alternative methods” is what people were looking for.

That said HoT filled in what was missing for some of us. Every other map was for people who liked what you liked. Orr was nerfed due to people complaining about it, so it’s no longer a map I liked as much. There was virtually no where in the open world that really felt like a war zone.

And again I have a guild full of casuals who can do HoT. It’s not like they’re avoiding it. Sure they had help learning. But now it’s not just casuals, it’s casuals who insist they can only solo.

There are guys on this forum who used to bitterly complain about HoT, who stopped completely once I told them around a single time. That’s got to say something.

Djinn.9245:

AliamRationem.5172:

slashlizardy.9167:

Anything to not lock down collection of Mastery Points would be a big improvement. You still have to earn the xp, but Mastery Points in and of themselves is a HoT mess. I used to spend money on this game, but as long as all we have is this HoT mess, I will not be spending any money on it.

I think it’s important for a game to have a structure that nudges players to participate in varied content, even if they sometimes do so only for the reward. “Play the way you want” sounds great as a slogan, but how long are you going to play a game where the goal is simply to gain experience to unlock everything?

Isn’t that the whole point of having alternative methods of acquiring rewards? We do achievements, play different game modes, etc. If we reduce that to simply gaining general experience, we risk making it more of a grind even while it may be more appealing to the subset of players who doesn’t enjoy the particular content in question.

Why do you believe that people should be doing something they don’t like during their entertainment time? I completely disagree.

Why do you believe that people should get rewards for content they refuse to participate in? I completely disagree.

See? Two can play at this game!

Djinn.9245:

Healix.5819:

Djinn.9245:

Why do you believe that people should be doing something they don’t like during their entertainment time? I completely disagree.

People need to be encouraged to try different things, otherwise they never will.

Like my Mommy? Sorry, I’m an adult and can decide to try brocolli or not. And when it comes to my entertainment, I especially don’t need someone else to decide what I should try.

Good analogy! And by not eating your broccoli, figuratively speaking, you may inadvertently harm yourself. That’s why Mom made you eat it, despite the fact that you don’t like broccoli.

As it pertains to game design, players are poor moderators of their own behavior. For instance, my friend loved AB MM. He found it so rewarding that it got to the point where he was logging in a few times a day to play it and otherwise not playing the game at all.

They likely killed AB MM in part due to players like this. How long do you suppose the average player is likely to maintain interest in the game if it doesn’t properly provide incentives to other parts of the game? Logging in to run AB MM a few times a day, it wouldn’t be long before most players started asking themselves: What’s the point?

Perhaps you feel that these are not similar situations. But honestly, how many players do you think want to buy an expansion only to play the core game to earn the rewards? How long before you find yourself asking: What’s the point?

Djinn.9245:

Healix.5819:

Djinn.9245:

Why do you believe that people should be doing something they don’t like during their entertainment time? I completely disagree.

People need to be encouraged to try different things, otherwise they never will.

Like my Mommy? Sorry, I’m an adult and can decide to try brocolli or not. And when it comes to my entertainment, I especially don’t need someone else to decide what I should try.

Notice he used the word “encouraged,” not, “forced.” And the developer is not doing it for your good, they’re doing it for theirs. The more people they can encourage to engage with content they expend resources creating, the better for them. ANet is not a parent telling you to do something, they’re people who created something to do and who are wise enough to know that without rewards, a lot of MMO players will blow that content off. The real issue, if you read more of what Healix says, is not that they put incentives behind content, but which incentives they put behind content.

Djinn.9245:

Healix.5819:

Djinn.9245:

Why do you believe that people should be doing something they don’t like during their entertainment time? I completely disagree.

People need to be encouraged to try different things, otherwise they never will.

Like my Mommy? Sorry, I’m an adult and can decide to try brocolli or not. And when it comes to my entertainment, I especially don’t need someone else to decide what I should try.

You may be an adult, but it doesn’t man that you can’t be “encouraged” to try different things. This is particularly true because game landscapes are note real life and people don’t know what they like until they try it, yet many people are hesitant to leave their confort zone.

One guy in my guild hated jumping puzzles, with a passion. Complained about them frequently. That was a long time ago. Same guy now loves jumping puzzles and does then every chance he gets, just for fun. He was encouraged by mastery points to try some and found he really enjoyed one of them (the Silverwastes), which gave him the impetus to try more of them. His experience isn’t unique.

In fact, we’re often encouraged by advertising to try all sorts of stuff. Some of it works out and some of it doesn’t, but there’s nothing wrong with the attempt.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Djinn.9245:

Healix.5819:

Djinn.9245:

Why do you believe that people should be doing something they don’t like during their entertainment time? I completely disagree.

People need to be encouraged to try different things, otherwise they never will.

Like my Mommy? Sorry, I’m an adult and can decide to try brocolli or not. And when it comes to my entertainment, I especially don’t need someone else to decide what I should try.

Notice he used the word “encouraged,” not, “forced.” And the developer is not doing it for your good, they’re doing it for theirs. The more people they can encourage to engage with content they expend resources creating, the better for them. ANet is not a parent telling you to do something, they’re people who created something to do and who are wise enough to know that without rewards, a lot of MMO players will blow that content off. The real issue, if you read more of what Healix says, is not that they put incentives behind content, but which incentives they put behind content.

Now that the Wiki has been corrected and we know that there are actually only 185 available MP, not 217, it is less “encouragement” and more “forcing” than the “play Anet’s way” defenders like to claim…

And if players blow off content, that should be indication that the content isn’t what people want, people shouldn’t be forced to do it anyway.

Anet cannot expect more than 60% of their design to be enjoyed, there will always be areas that went over poorly. And each player has a different design which will appeal to them. They will get what they want to get out of the game. To gate xp behind collections is a horrible idea. When that happens, the players in the whole history of gaming will resist and spend more effort to move or adjust the gate, it’s human nature. But when it is straight xp, you will see the players race to finish off the xp cap, as well they should, it is what is expected, it’s at the core of the social contract of “leveling”. To require anything else is to go against the whole history of rpgs.

slashlizardy.9167:

Anything to not lock down collection of Mastery Points would be a big improvement. You still have to earn the xp, but Mastery Points in and of themselves is a HoT mess. I used to spend money on this game, but as long as all we have is this HoT mess, I will not be spending any money on it.

Yes, I have no problem with, oh, “earn 5 levels to get the new zone’s mastery”. What holds me up is “oh, also get (or have) 5 of these points which could be easy things or hard ones”.

Menadena.7482:

slashlizardy.9167:

Anything to not lock down collection of Mastery Points would be a big improvement. You still have to earn the xp, but Mastery Points in and of themselves is a HoT mess. I used to spend money on this game, but as long as all we have is this HoT mess, I will not be spending any money on it.

Yes, I have no problem with, oh, “earn 5 levels to get the new zone’s mastery”. What holds me up is “oh, also get (or have) 5 of these points which could be easy things or hard ones”.

Yes, and those 5 points have nothing to do with the xp you earned.

Djinn.9245:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Djinn.9245:

Healix.5819:

Djinn.9245:

Why do you believe that people should be doing something they don’t like during their entertainment time? I completely disagree.

People need to be encouraged to try different things, otherwise they never will.

Like my Mommy? Sorry, I’m an adult and can decide to try brocolli or not. And when it comes to my entertainment, I especially don’t need someone else to decide what I should try.

Notice he used the word “encouraged,” not, “forced.” And the developer is not doing it for your good, they’re doing it for theirs. The more people they can encourage to engage with content they expend resources creating, the better for them. ANet is not a parent telling you to do something, they’re people who created something to do and who are wise enough to know that without rewards, a lot of MMO players will blow that content off. The real issue, if you read more of what Healix says, is not that they put incentives behind content, but which incentives they put behind content.

Now that the Wiki has been corrected and we know that there are actually only 185 available MP, not 217, it is less “encouragement” and more “forcing” than the “play Anet’s way” defenders like to claim…

And if players blow off content, that should be indication that the content isn’t what people want, people shouldn’t be forced to do it anyway.

Not all content will appeal to everyone. Just because some players choose to not do raids and/or adventures doesn’t mean that said content was necessarily bad or shouldn’t have been included. There is no forcing; however, if you want the rewards from said content then you must do the content. Not everything has to be centered around the “do whatever I want and get rewarded whatever I want” mentality.

There is an excess of like 30 or so HoT mastery points. I haven’t tracked them in awhile but it’s around there. Players have more than enough of a buffer to choose what they want to do.

Actually there is forcing, when the xp gets to the max and you have no points to spend at the moment. An excess of 30 or so is not enuff for up to 186 points to spend. Considering that less than 20% of the material will be considered enjoyable by the players, and that the players will differ on what is enjoyable to them, so at best anet can provide 50% of quality material, then there should be a bonus of MP’s of about 94 points.

slashlizardy.9167:

Actually there is forcing, when the xp gets to the max and you have no points to spend at the moment. An excess of 30 or so is not enuff for up to 186 points to spend. Considering that less than 20% of the material will be considered enjoyable by the players, and that the players will differ on what is enjoyable to them, so at best anet can provide 50% of quality material, then there should be a bonus of MP’s of about 94 points.

It’s more than enough buffer.

Did you make up that “fact” about 20% of players?

Excess mastery points should not be based on what players prefer to play as that defeats the purpose.

Ayrilana.1396:

slashlizardy.9167:

Actually there is forcing, when the xp gets to the max and you have no points to spend at the moment. An excess of 30 or so is not enuff for up to 186 points to spend. Considering that less than 20% of the material will be considered enjoyable by the players, and that the players will differ on what is enjoyable to them, so at best anet can provide 50% of quality material, then there should be a bonus of MP’s of about 94 points.

It’s more than enough buffer.

Did you make up that “fact” about 20% of players?

Excess mastery points should not be based on what players prefer to play as that defeats the purpose.

No it doesn’t, as long as they are doing enjoyable (to them, at least) content, they will stay engaged in the game. 20% of (enjoyable) content…. Or they could just take out MP collection itself, altogether…

slashlizardy.9167:

Ayrilana.1396:

slashlizardy.9167:

Actually there is forcing, when the xp gets to the max and you have no points to spend at the moment. An excess of 30 or so is not enuff for up to 186 points to spend. Considering that less than 20% of the material will be considered enjoyable by the players, and that the players will differ on what is enjoyable to them, so at best anet can provide 50% of quality material, then there should be a bonus of MP’s of about 94 points.

It’s more than enough buffer.

Did you make up that “fact” about 20% of players?

Excess mastery points should not be based on what players prefer to play as that defeats the purpose.

No it doesn’t, as long as they are doing enjoyable (to them, at least) content, they will stay engaged in the game. 20% of (enjoyable) content…. Or they could just take out MP collection itself, altogether…

Again, where are you getting this 20% from as it looks like you’re just making it up to support your argument.

Having so much of an excess of MP in the game makes it pointless and defeats the original purpose.

Ayrilana.1396:

slashlizardy.9167:

Ayrilana.1396:

slashlizardy.9167:

Actually there is forcing, when the xp gets to the max and you have no points to spend at the moment. An excess of 30 or so is not enuff for up to 186 points to spend. Considering that less than 20% of the material will be considered enjoyable by the players, and that the players will differ on what is enjoyable to them, so at best anet can provide 50% of quality material, then there should be a bonus of MP’s of about 94 points.

It’s more than enough buffer.

Did you make up that “fact” about 20% of players?

Excess mastery points should not be based on what players prefer to play as that defeats the purpose.

No it doesn’t, as long as they are doing enjoyable (to them, at least) content, they will stay engaged in the game. 20% of (enjoyable) content…. Or they could just take out MP collection itself, altogether…

Again, where are you getting this 20% from as it looks like you’re just making it up to support your argument.

Having so much of an excess of MP in the game makes it pointless and defeats the original purpose.

It does defeat the purpose, as it is not needed and is terrible game design. It starts to devolve the game into a niche game.

slashlizardy.9167:

Menadena.7482:

slashlizardy.9167:

Anything to not lock down collection of Mastery Points would be a big improvement. You still have to earn the xp, but Mastery Points in and of themselves is a HoT mess. I used to spend money on this game, but as long as all we have is this HoT mess, I will not be spending any money on it.

Yes, I have no problem with, oh, “earn 5 levels to get the new zone’s mastery”. What holds me up is “oh, also get (or have) 5 of these points which could be easy things or hard ones”.

Yes, and those 5 points have nothing to do with the xp you earned.

True, for the spidey mastery one of the points came from the commune in Bitterfrost in the mouth of the svanir statue. I explored around Draconis Mons for the xp. Which thing was more relevant? One has nothing to do with the other beyond them both being part of LS3.

slashlizardy.9167:

Ayrilana.1396:

slashlizardy.9167:

Ayrilana.1396:

slashlizardy.9167:

Actually there is forcing, when the xp gets to the max and you have no points to spend at the moment. An excess of 30 or so is not enuff for up to 186 points to spend. Considering that less than 20% of the material will be considered enjoyable by the players, and that the players will differ on what is enjoyable to them, so at best anet can provide 50% of quality material, then there should be a bonus of MP’s of about 94 points.

It’s more than enough buffer.

Did you make up that “fact” about 20% of players?

Excess mastery points should not be based on what players prefer to play as that defeats the purpose.

No it doesn’t, as long as they are doing enjoyable (to them, at least) content, they will stay engaged in the game. 20% of (enjoyable) content…. Or they could just take out MP collection itself, altogether…

Again, where are you getting this 20% from as it looks like you’re just making it up to support your argument.

Having so much of an excess of MP in the game makes it pointless and defeats the original purpose.

It does defeat the purpose, as it is not needed and is terrible game design. It starts to devolve the game into a niche game.

It defeats the purpose as the mastery points get players to experience most of, if not all, of the expansion content.

kdaddy.5431:

Vayne.8563:

Well it’s certainly easier to max your points now since you can earn more achievements in the new Living Story zones than you need to buy the new masteries from those zones. It should help make it a lot easier for those who hate doing adventures.

That said there are a couple of adventures that are very easy to do, and one that’s even easy to get gold in (maybe two or three). I don’t have gold in most of the adventures don’t have silver in others, but I’m sitting on 186 mastery points.

But we’ve seen more than one person who just started HoT post that the zones are quire busy, much to their surprise after reading some of the stuff on these forums.

I get that some people don’t like HoT, or the mastery system, but that doesn’t make either of them bad, and it’s absolutely possible to get the mastery points you need.

Again if anyone is on a US server and they need help getting into HOT or getting HOT masteries or unlocking their elite spec, I’d be happy to help them.

I have to agree with this, masterys are not to hard to get. And i do notice that i probably hate the mastery system more due to HOT breaking WvW and PvP.

HOT increased the speed of the game alot and alot of my guild members did not like it in there PvE.

I think it just got to a point where people feel like they needed masterys to progress but they were not enjoying the journey. This doesnt go for the players who like the speed and enjoy the content. Yet i also agree that alot of the complaints seem to be more about just playing the game. Yet feel they cant, i personally lost some interest since i didnt have enough MP to use the spider man skill.

HOT just brings out alot of frustration IMO.

i think the overall numbers and ideas of Hot and masteries arent bad, but they didnt actually tailor the system well.

heres what i feel they did.

picked out interesting places to go and things to do in each map, then attached mastery points to them.

created a simplified structure of reward tracks for each zone

tied abilities to experience and mastery points.

it was done too arbitrarily. the problem is there are a lot of points in the process, particularly early on, where you dont have enough mastery points to progress, or enough experience, or you used it on some mastery you didnt need yet, unknowingly. This makes adventures seem like you must do them, even though there is an excess of points in hot, instead of feeling like an option for getting more in depth in the area.

so its a good idea, but they tried to use a fairly automated way of implementing it, when it really needed, at least at the beginning, to be designed based on the game.

its like if you took a metroid or castlevania game, and just put all the upgrades in a menu, needing you to kill an arbitrarily increasing number of monsters, and go to random point on the map.

basically they should have designed the mastery system based on the maps/content, not pasted it on top of it

A couple of months ago, I was on a dead Dragon Stand map. I was running around hitting the few available pods and generally learning my new power reaper when someone popped up in map chat and said, “Can someone help me get to juvenile tigers? I really want one for my Ranger.” 3 other players popped up and said sure, and, even though I was at the end of one of the lanes, I joined the party and started heading back to meet them. Even though the group took the wrong path, I managed to meet up with them pretty quickly. And the 4 of us level 80’s escorted a level 15 or 20 Anet employee that was just getting back into the game after a hiatus all the way down the central path, across the connection to the northern path by the blighting tower entrance, and back up to the juvenile tigers.

When a low-level character can get on a so-called dead map and get an escort that literally smashed every mob in their way across half the map…the maps aren’t dead.

Kaltyn of Torbins Deep.2946:

A couple of months ago, I was on a dead Dragon Stand map. I was running around hitting the few available pods and generally learning my new power reaper when someone popped up in map chat and said, “Can someone help me get to juvenile tigers? I really want one for my Ranger.” 3 other players popped up and said sure, and, even though I was at the end of one of the lanes, I joined the party and started heading back to meet them. Even though the group took the wrong path, I managed to meet up with them pretty quickly. And the 4 of us level 80’s escorted a level 15 or 20 Anet employee that was just getting back into the game after a hiatus all the way down the central path, across the connection to the northern path by the blighting tower entrance, and back up to the juvenile tigers.

When a low-level character can get on a so-called dead map and get an escort that literally smashed every mob in their way across half the map…the maps aren’t dead.

I think maybe this was posted in the wrong conversation…..

Ayrilana.1396:

slashlizardy.9167:

Ayrilana.1396:

slashlizardy.9167:

Ayrilana.1396:

slashlizardy.9167:

Actually there is forcing, when the xp gets to the max and you have no points to spend at the moment. An excess of 30 or so is not enuff for up to 186 points to spend. Considering that less than 20% of the material will be considered enjoyable by the players, and that the players will differ on what is enjoyable to them, so at best anet can provide 50% of quality material, then there should be a bonus of MP’s of about 94 points.

It’s more than enough buffer.

Did you make up that “fact” about 20% of players?

Excess mastery points should not be based on what players prefer to play as that defeats the purpose.

No it doesn’t, as long as they are doing enjoyable (to them, at least) content, they will stay engaged in the game. 20% of (enjoyable) content…. Or they could just take out MP collection itself, altogether…

Again, where are you getting this 20% from as it looks like you’re just making it up to support your argument.

Having so much of an excess of MP in the game makes it pointless and defeats the original purpose.

It does defeat the purpose, as it is not needed and is terrible game design. It starts to devolve the game into a niche game.

It defeats the purpose as the mastery points get players to experience most of, if not all, of the expansion content.

The XP requirement already takes care of that. Yes, you can do it on another map but presumably you will want to explore the new shiny a bit anyway.

Meanwhile, you know next to nothing about most MPs on the new map. Odds are you know of some on other maps you have not grabbed yet though.