Did HoT ruin GW2?

Did HoT ruin GW2?

in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns

Posted by: Vayne.8563

Vayne.8563

IMHO, yes it did and the worst part is that it has permanently damaged the game and user base. I remember having the discussion after the first open beta in with guildies and noted that it won’t be received well on multiple levels (gating, verticality, locked out map areas…). All of these were true and then HoT brought terrible grind to the mix.
Out of 4 guilds I was member of, only 1 survived HoT aftermath.

People just stopped playing the game including myself. I do come back from time to time to Central Tyria to see how Anet is merging servers one after another. There are currently several games that GW people took refuge in and I haven’t heard anyone mentioning anything about going back to GW2

Nothing can fix the HoT I’m afraid as it is unfixable without a complete redesign, lowering grind is but a makeup on an old face.

If you’re going to complain about HoT, that’s fair enough. If you’re going to make stuff up to justify your position, that not so much.

There is an issue with one single aspect of the game WvW, which has existed since well before HoT. No servers have been merged, but again, those servers have been a problem for years. People have been complaining about them for years. HoT is not the reason that those servers are playing together.

PvE servers have been on the megaserver for a long time, so there would never be a server merge there.

By all means, complain about HoT all you like. But the so-called server merges….they have nothing to do with HoT.

If you don’t believe it, look back when we had to do WvW complete for map completion for legendaries and look at the number of people complaining, long before HoT existed, that their server was dead.

The fact is, it was the free server transfers at launch that allowed everyone serious about WvW to transfer to the three busiest tiers that causes the WvW problem

No other “server mergers” have occurred.

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Posted by: Excellent Name.9574

Excellent Name.9574

Are You saying that there was free server transfer at the HoT release? That would explain the server merges then indeed?

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Posted by: Vayne.8563

Vayne.8563

Are You saying that there was free server transfer at the HoT release? That would explain the server merges then indeed?

No. I’m saying at launch of Guild Wars 2, due to the fact that guesting didn’t make it into the release, that everyone loaded up on the top servers until they were full.

The population problem in WvW is years old. Therefore it can’t be due to HoT, because the problem preceded HoT by at least a couple of years.

The population problem in WvW is an old problem, not a new one.

HoT didn’t do WvW any favors with the new map, but that’s another story. The population problem existed before the new map drove WvW players away.

And WvW has come back a long way since then.

Again, server mergers in WvW (and only in WvW) have nothing to do with HoT.

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Posted by: Excellent Name.9574

Excellent Name.9574

Then, what I said stays. There were no WvW server merges prior to HoT, and from what I see WvW has also been destroyed with HoT release.

(edited by Excellent Name.9574)

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Posted by: Ardenwolfe.8590

Ardenwolfe.8590

Then, what I stand stays. There were no WvW server merges prior to HoT, and from what I see WvW has also been destroyed with HoT release.

Agreed. No one can deny the devastating effect Heart of Thorns had on WvW. I know they’re trying to fix it, but it’s clear WvW was an afterthought at the time.

The fact they copy/pasted the new map over the old map is a pretty clear indication too.

Gone to Reddit.

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Posted by: Ayrilana.1396

Ayrilana.1396

So HoT killed WvW? Why is it that when I go into WvW that it’s more populated than it was before HoT launched?

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Posted by: voltaicbore.8012

voltaicbore.8012

I’m a fairly new player, and I have zero experience of what GW2 was like before HoT dropped. That might be why my opinion of HoT is very, very high.

I’ll echo what others have already said: HoT events (I’ve only run Silverwastes, VB, and Auric Basin events so far) actually work extremely well with a small number of coordinated people who know their characters and have some situational awareness. The few times I’ve had anything less than a full T4 VB clear were actually due to a huge zerg pack uselessly following a mentor tag around, instead of reaching all the right outposts.

As for the vertical layering of the maps, I love it (said no one ever, right?). A big part of this is the game I abandoned in favor of GW2. That game – it pains me to even mention its name, so great is my disappointment – was built on an alpha version of the Hero Engine. Suffice it to say that said engine cannot even handle underwater environments. So being able to literally feel lost in a jungle makes a ton of sense to me, and it’s light years away from the game I left. A “jungle” there consists of a fairly thinly wooded map, all one layer, with just some hills and pathing obstacles here and there.

Overall, I feel like ANet’s team puts a ton more craftsmanship into map design than the few other games I’ve run. The cities actually look like places where people actually live and work, rather than being a laggy repository for a few useful vendors. The vendor NPCs at forward bases actually come under attack instead of being oddly invincible from enemies 5 feet away, and players meaningfully participate in the taking and defense of outposts from the enemy. I have yet to even hear of anything so dynamic and involving anywhere else.

Again, I’m pretty new to all this. I just wanted to put in my 2 cents, as someone who came to GW2 from another (and in my experience far inferior) mmo environment. Core game & HoT are pretty awesome to me.

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Posted by: gavyne.6847

gavyne.6847

So HoT killed WvW? Why is it that when I go into WvW that it’s more populated than it was before HoT launched?

It’s not more populated than pre-HoT. Only reason you are seeing more people now is because they are linking multiple servers together.

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Posted by: Ayrilana.1396

Ayrilana.1396

So HoT killed WvW? Why is it that when I go into WvW that it’s more populated than it was before HoT launched?

It’s not more populated than pre-HoT. Only reason you are seeing more people now is because they are linking multiple servers together.

I’m on a server that isn’t linked and there’s more people playing. Besides, HoT at launch hardly did anything for WvW so you couldn’t really call it a killer. It more the lack of attention until recently that hurt it.

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Posted by: greens.1687

greens.1687

GW2 end game SW and chopping trees in Orr
HOT end game SW and chopping trees in Orr, with some AB

Ruined or not, some of us might not like it, but some do and it simply gives us more options. Personally I am not a fan of the maps, but after getting all 9 specializations you do not have to spend any more time there. I like the HOT stuff outside of HOT like new items, specializations, and gliding. Mastery points are alright, but they stick out badly I really want to hide that somehow like in wvw or pvp where it doesn’t show. For random players I am seeing them less of a person and more of a number. Hello there 169, what are you doing here with 2, 27, and 51.

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Posted by: gavyne.6847

gavyne.6847

I’m on a server that isn’t linked and there’s more people playing. Besides, HoT at launch hardly did anything for WvW so you couldn’t really call it a killer. It more the lack of attention until recently that hurt it.

If your server isn’t linked, it means you have the population but mostly due to people transferring off dead servers in an attempt to find some fun in WvW. You need to look at WvW as a whole, the entire NA & EU, not just the server you are on. The fact that they are having to link servers together so people can find action in WvW means they acknowledge WvW lost a lot of players.

HoT at launch forced players to play on Desert Borderlands, that’s pretty big something, I wouldn’t call that nothing. Desert Borderland was a total mess, from map design itself, to PvE gimmicks, to broken walls/doors/keep lords, to overpowered guild upgrades and banners, and lastly forced mechanics such as oasis laser event that caused zonewide skill lag that was never, ever, fixed by the way. Imagine if Auric Basin meta caused a zone-wide 5-10 second skill lag everytime meta event starts up, would people say that’s not a big deal? lol no, there would be riot on the street.

These desert borderlands replaced alpine, so people had no choice but to play in them (that or quit, which many did). EBG, well people voiced concerns over airstrikes, invis fountains, overpowered banners, chilling fog, etc well ahead of launch but they forced everybody to play them anyways.

And not just that, but initially we had to grind pretty hardcore just to unlock elite specs. So those who jumped into WvW without elite specs unlocked were getting wtpwned left & right due to all the overpowered elite specs that came out with HoT. Broken abilities such as CoR ruled WvW for a very long time until they finally nerfed/fixed it. The T1 server I played on went from Full to High, as I watched servers across the board drop in population.

You know what Anet had to do to fix their HoT implementation for WvW? They literally had to undo 80-90% of what they added, they had to disable oasis laser event completely because they couldn’t fix the lag it created. They had to strip desert borderlands out completely and replace with alpine because people really just didn’t like them. They had to nerf banners, guild upgrades, airstrikes, pretty much everything they implemented in HoT had to be either nerfed, completely revamped, or stripped out totally.

When a company does that, it tells you even they (Anet) acknowledge they effed up bad and did their customers wrong. So while I applaud their willingness to change and fix these things, and many things did eventually get fixed and they’re at least opening dialogues with the WvW playerbase for the first time. You really shouldn’t come and act like HoT didn’t ruin WvW and other parts of the game.

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Posted by: Ayrilana.1396

Ayrilana.1396

I’m on a server that isn’t linked and there’s more people playing. Besides, HoT at launch hardly did anything for WvW so you couldn’t really call it a killer. It more the lack of attention until recently that hurt it.

If your server isn’t linked, it means you have the population but mostly due to people transferring off dead servers in an attempt to find some fun in WvW. You need to look at WvW as a whole, the entire NA & EU, not just the server you are on. The fact that they are having to link servers together so people can find action in WvW means they acknowledge WvW lost a lot of players.

HoT at launch forced players to play on Desert Borderlands, that’s pretty big something, I wouldn’t call that nothing. Desert Borderland was a total mess, from map design itself, to PvE gimmicks, to broken walls/doors/keep lords, to overpowered guild upgrades and banners, and lastly forced mechanics such as oasis laser event that caused zonewide skill lag that was never, ever, fixed by the way. Imagine if Auric Basin meta caused a zone-wide 5-10 second skill lag everytime meta event starts up, would people say that’s not a big deal? lol no, there would be riot on the street.

These desert borderlands replaced alpine, so people had no choice but to play in them (that or quit, which many did). EBG, well people voiced concerns over airstrikes, invis fountains, overpowered banners, chilling fog, etc well ahead of launch but they forced everybody to play them anyways.

And not just that, but initially we had to grind pretty hardcore just to unlock elite specs. So those who jumped into WvW without elite specs unlocked were getting wtpwned left & right due to all the overpowered elite specs that came out with HoT. Broken abilities such as CoR ruled WvW for a very long time until they finally nerfed/fixed it. The T1 server I played on went from Full to High, as I watched servers across the board drop in population.

You know what Anet had to do to fix their HoT implementation for WvW? They literally had to undo 80-90% of what they added, they had to disable oasis laser event completely because they couldn’t fix the lag it created. They had to strip desert borderlands out completely and replace with alpine because people really just didn’t like them. They had to nerf banners, guild upgrades, airstrikes, pretty much everything they implemented in HoT had to be either nerfed, completely revamped, or stripped out totally.

When a company does that, it tells you even they (Anet) acknowledge they effed up bad and did their customers wrong. So while I applaud their willingness to change and fix these things, and many things did eventually get fixed and they’re at least opening dialogues with the WvW playerbase for the first time. You really shouldn’t come and act like HoT didn’t ruin WvW and other parts of the game.

I’m familiar with how WvW was as a whole. The situation had nothing to do with HoT. Not everyone didn’t like desert borderlands. The issue is that a lot of the changes they have done this year would have been nice to have been active when the expansion launched. As far as the rest, I think you’re reading a little too much into it.

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Posted by: JTGuevara.9018

JTGuevara.9018

HoT has been far better received since the April patch than it was at launch. It’s old news. It didn’t ruin the game. It didn’t destroy the game. It probably drove some people from the game and attracted other people.

At most, it ruined the game for you.

Which is okay. Not everyone is going to like every expansion. This has happened in every MMO pretty much ever.

To say HoT didn’t ruin the game is pretty dishonest. What about PvP? What about WvW? Just check those threads and read the responses. HoT has been a DISASTER for those communities. Last time I checked, WvW and PvP were part of the game, too.

Granted, WvW is getting fixed. HOPEFULLY, PvP will get fixed next.

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Posted by: JTGuevara.9018

JTGuevara.9018

So HoT killed WvW? Why is it that when I go into WvW that it’s more populated than it was before HoT launched?

Because it’s getting fixed.

Go to WvW at HoT release and tell me with a straight face WvW was populated. Nope! The remnants of whatever population was left confined themselves to Eternal Battlegrounds because DBL were a disaster.

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Posted by: Ayrilana.1396

Ayrilana.1396

So HoT killed WvW? Why is it that when I go into WvW that it’s more populated than it was before HoT launched?

Because it’s getting fixed.

Go to WvW at HoT release and tell me with a straight face WvW was populated. Nope! The remnants of whatever population was left confined themselves to Eternal Battlegrounds because DBL were a disaster.

The same problems existed before HoT. DBL just added onto it but that was it. So if Anet releases LS3, and many WvW players go to play that, are you going to tell me that LS3 killed WvW?

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Posted by: Vayne.8563

Vayne.8563

Then, what I said stays. There were no WvW server merges prior to HoT, and from what I see WvW has also been destroyed with HoT release.

WvW has probably never been in a better place than it is right now. And a lot of people who actually play WvW are saying it. The are NO server mergers right now on the tier 1 servers, and there are queues.

You can insist on anything you want. But it’s factually wrong. Unless you can somehow prove there weren’t problems on the unmerged servers pre hot and you can’t…beause there were.

(edited by Vayne.8563)

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Posted by: AliamRationem.5172

AliamRationem.5172

I’m a fairly new player, and I have zero experience of what GW2 was like before HoT dropped. That might be why my opinion of HoT is very, very high.

I’ll echo what others have already said: HoT events (I’ve only run Silverwastes, VB, and Auric Basin events so far) actually work extremely well with a small number of coordinated people who know their characters and have some situational awareness. The few times I’ve had anything less than a full T4 VB clear were actually due to a huge zerg pack uselessly following a mentor tag around, instead of reaching all the right outposts.

As for the vertical layering of the maps, I love it (said no one ever, right?). A big part of this is the game I abandoned in favor of GW2. That game – it pains me to even mention its name, so great is my disappointment – was built on an alpha version of the Hero Engine. Suffice it to say that said engine cannot even handle underwater environments. So being able to literally feel lost in a jungle makes a ton of sense to me, and it’s light years away from the game I left. A “jungle” there consists of a fairly thinly wooded map, all one layer, with just some hills and pathing obstacles here and there.

Overall, I feel like ANet’s team puts a ton more craftsmanship into map design than the few other games I’ve run. The cities actually look like places where people actually live and work, rather than being a laggy repository for a few useful vendors. The vendor NPCs at forward bases actually come under attack instead of being oddly invincible from enemies 5 feet away, and players meaningfully participate in the taking and defense of outposts from the enemy. I have yet to even hear of anything so dynamic and involving anywhere else.

Again, I’m pretty new to all this. I just wanted to put in my 2 cents, as someone who came to GW2 from another (and in my experience far inferior) mmo environment. Core game & HoT are pretty awesome to me.

I also lack the pre-HoT perspective and came over from that other game. My experience has been exactly the same. HoT map design is incredible! I consider it a big step up from the earlier map design in this game and in that other game as well.

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Posted by: Cronos.6532

Cronos.6532

HoT is the best part of the game since the April patch.

Ethereal Guardians [EG]
etherealguardians.com

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Posted by: Demented Yak.6105

Demented Yak.6105

The new HoT maps and their mechanics, for me, have put almost every other map to shame in every way. I do not find them to be too complex or too challenging at all. It’s all just about right. If anything, I’d want to be harder and more confusing.

If I couldn’t raid and glide around killing night bosses and the mouth of mordremoth with my elite specs, collecting things for the achievements and skins along the way, I would only very rarely log in for anything other than the occasional PvP match.

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Posted by: Dadnir.5038

Dadnir.5038

Did hot ruin guild wars 2?

Yes and not. HoT didn’t ruined guild wars 2, it’s more that it change a lot of the things that we were used to.
- There is now more area where you can farm for gold
- There are more traitlines
- People were complaining about professions and they still complain
- … etc.

What really hurt the game is the rythm change at which they introduce new content. Honestly people grow tired of waiting. Raids are fine and all but it’s not a content that is addressed at all the players. We are boringly waiting for something new that is not a grindfest and is accessible to anyone.

No core profession should be balanced around an optional elite specialization.

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Posted by: indelible.5928

indelible.5928

I don’t think it ruined it. I definitely think it took 20 steps backwards, and has turned GW2 into a cookie cutter MMO right up there with SWTOR and WoW. It is of course better than those two games by a country mile, but that’s largely down to the remnant content for the base game. HoT adds lots to the mix, but most of it is lacklustre and often precipitates a feeling of “I’ve done this before, many, many times”. It certainly isn’t the quality I would expect of a studio that gave us one of the most acclaimed games of all time in Guild Wars, and it most certainly does not follow the mission statement given at the start of GW2s development.

The nature of the game changed dramatically with HoT, and now it’s all about farming and grinding. I don’t really feel like I have time to do anything else, any of the fun meandering I used to do when there was no pressure to perform. As much as people say “you don’t have to raid” or “you don’t have to do fractals”, Colin turned the end-game into a linear progression affair and added the stick to the carrot where there was no stick before. I don’t have to raid, but I’m made to feel like I should aim for it. I don’t have to do fractals, but I sort of do have to do them if I want to take part in any of the more meaningful content such as raiding. “Raiding is only for the elite players”; given the original statements, I thought GW2 specifically tried to avoid elitism by gating content behind farming and grinding? I thought the impetus was to deliver a game that offered a huge set of rides without any height restrictions? That’s what it was when it first came out. That’s what it isn’t now. Everything that ANet purported to being against when GW2 first came out has been implemented in one way, shape or form by HoT. That’s on him partly, and I can see why the got rid of him… erm… sorry… why he left of his own volition. That’s also on Mike, however, and the rest of the team, and they really need to sit down and ask themselves how they bring the game back to its original, unique vision for the MMO space.

HoT feels more like a swansong for the “old” style of MMOs I specifically came to GW2 to avoid. I hope they learn from their mistakes going forward. I think, personally, that Ascended gear and raided is the biggest insult to the original mission statement of the game right now, not because it exists but because it is gated so heavily by grinding, farming and hideous timelocks. Either add more content variety on the Ascended path – to dispossess it for it’s grindy nature – or shorten the time it takes to get Ascended gear. Also, the unreasonable demands placed on players by AP dictates is stupid as well. ANet has their work cut out for them. It’s not just about living world, Mike.

One thing I would say is that there’s always been a cynical edge to GW2, where I’ve often felt like ANet are specifically trying to get me to stay in game, are specifically implementing things like timelocks and other such unreasonable mechanics, just so I’ll stay in game/log on more often, increasing the chance I’ll buy things on the store. To ANet, I’ll make it abundantly clear now: I will buy stuff because I want to buy stuff, and the time gating, the constant attempts to monopolise my time will only result in me leaving the game. It’s really that simple for most people.

TKT | European Gaming Clan | Aurora Glade | http://www.tktclan.net

(edited by indelible.5928)

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Posted by: AliamRationem.5172

AliamRationem.5172

I don’t think it ruined it. I definitely think it took 20 steps backwards, and has turned GW2 into a cookie cutter MMO right up there with SWTOR and WoW. It is of course better than those two games by a country mile, but that’s largely down to the remnant content for the base game. HoT adds lots to the mix, but most of it is lacklustre and often precipitates a feeling of “I’ve done this before, many, many times”. It certainly isn’t the quality I would expect of a studio that gave us one of the most acclaimed games of all time in Guild Wars, and it most certainly does not follow the mission statement given at the start of GW2s development.

The nature of the game changed dramatically with HoT, and now it’s all about farming and grinding. I don’t really feel like I have time to do anything else, any of the fun meandering I used to do when there was no pressure to perform. As much as people say “you don’t have to raid” or “you don’t have to do fractals”, Colin turned the end-game into a linear progression affair and added the stick to the carrot where there was no stick before. I don’t have to raid, but I’m made to feel like I should aim for it. I don’t have to do fractals, but I sort of do have to do them if I want to take part in any of the more meaningful content such as raiding. “Raiding is only for the elite players”; given the original statements, I thought GW2 specifically tried to avoid elitism by gating content behind farming and grinding? I thought the impetus was to deliver a game that offered a huge set of rides without any height restrictions? That’s what it was when it first came out. That’s what it isn’t now. Everything that ANet purported to being against when GW2 first came out has been implemented in one way, shape or form by HoT. That’s on him partly, and I can see why the got rid of him… erm… sorry… why he left of his own volition. That’s also on Mike, however, and the rest of the team, and they really need to sit down and ask themselves how they bring the game back to its original, unique vision for the MMO space.

HoT feels more like a swansong for the “old” style of MMOs I specifically came to GW2 to avoid. I hope they learn from their mistakes going forward. I think, personally, that Ascended gear and raided is the biggest insult to the original mission statement of the game right now, not because it exists but because it is gated so heavily by grinding, farming and hideous timelocks. Either add more content variety on the Ascended path – to dispossess it for it’s grindy nature – or shorten the time it takes to get Ascended gear. Also, the unreasonable demands placed on players by AP dictates is stupid as well. ANet has their work cut out for them. It’s not just about living world, Mike.

One thing I would say is that there’s always been a cynical edge to GW2, where I’ve often felt like ANet are specifically trying to get me to stay in game, are specifically implementing things like timelocks and other such unreasonable mechanics, just so I’ll stay in game/log on more often, increasing the chance I’ll buy things on the store. To ANet, I’ll make it abundantly clear now: I will buy stuff because I want to buy stuff, and the time gating, the constant attempts to monopolise my time will only result in me leaving the game. It’s really that simple for most people.

Maybe it is that simple for most people. I know that’s what people who dislike HoT tend to say, that GW2 was made for them and some of the changes brought by the expansion are a step away from that vision. They don’t seem to want to spend time with the new content.

For me, it’s the opposite. I want to spend a lot of time in the game. I love the HoT maps and events most of all, although raids are fun, too. Still, I’m the type of player that needs a goal to strive for. It’s sort of a distraction. While I enjoy the content, I still need a reason to be there. For now, crafting my first legendary is keeping me busy running around my favorite map (TD), completing events and farming materials.

It sounds like that’s the sort of thing that wouldn’t interest you. The time requirements are more of a barrier to further play than a goal that keeps you interested. I see this a lot. There are at least two types of players in that sense, and HoT did a good job catering to the side that wasn’t satisfied with the core game. The April patch then did a better job of bringing that content to the mainstream.

Here’s to striking a better balance moving forward! I can appreciate your position, but pre-HoT GW2 probably wouldn’t have interested me. In a perfect world, GW2 would provide content for both of us. So that’s what I hope to see in the time ahead.

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Posted by: DeceiverX.8361

DeceiverX.8361

Are You saying that there was free server transfer at the HoT release? That would explain the server merges then indeed?

No. I’m saying at launch of Guild Wars 2, due to the fact that guesting didn’t make it into the release, that everyone loaded up on the top servers until they were full.

The population problem in WvW is years old. Therefore it can’t be due to HoT, because the problem preceded HoT by at least a couple of years.

The population problem in WvW is an old problem, not a new one.

HoT didn’t do WvW any favors with the new map, but that’s another story. The population problem existed before the new map drove WvW players away.

And WvW has come back a long way since then.

Again, server mergers in WvW (and only in WvW) have nothing to do with HoT.

I’d have to disagree to some extends. If they didn’t start making sweeping changes to stop the bleeding and get a few people back into WvW (also putting PvE requirements like GoB in the reward tracks to make people join), it’s very arguable HoT killed WvW.

It was definitely bleeding quite badly before, but the mass-scale exodus from the format at or near the release of HoT permanently reduced player populations. Servers that were once full are now not. Queues are shorter across the board for previously-populated servers. Tons of guilds have quit entirely solely quoting HoT-only content such as the guild halls removing all upgrade progress and the DBL’s themselves (before you say people have been voting for the inclusion of DBL, the data is skewed to favor it since most people who were against it (a large number) have since entirely stopped playing GW2).

WvW’s been in dire straights for years, but HoT was a killing blow. We’re seeing some attempts to resuscitate it, but it’s questionable if they’ll work into the future. The classes are still terribly imbalanced, the gear combinations are still swinging builds wildly, and the sheer powercreep has tremendously hurt the format and peoples’ willingness to consider it seriously.

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Posted by: Vayne.8563

Vayne.8563

Are You saying that there was free server transfer at the HoT release? That would explain the server merges then indeed?

No. I’m saying at launch of Guild Wars 2, due to the fact that guesting didn’t make it into the release, that everyone loaded up on the top servers until they were full.

The population problem in WvW is years old. Therefore it can’t be due to HoT, because the problem preceded HoT by at least a couple of years.

The population problem in WvW is an old problem, not a new one.

HoT didn’t do WvW any favors with the new map, but that’s another story. The population problem existed before the new map drove WvW players away.

And WvW has come back a long way since then.

Again, server mergers in WvW (and only in WvW) have nothing to do with HoT.

I’d have to disagree to some extends. If they didn’t start making sweeping changes to stop the bleeding and get a few people back into WvW (also putting PvE requirements like GoB in the reward tracks to make people join), it’s very arguable HoT killed WvW.

It was definitely bleeding quite badly before, but the mass-scale exodus from the format at or near the release of HoT permanently reduced player populations. Servers that were once full are now not. Queues are shorter across the board for previously-populated servers. Tons of guilds have quit entirely solely quoting HoT-only content such as the guild halls removing all upgrade progress and the DBL’s themselves (before you say people have been voting for the inclusion of DBL, the data is skewed to favor it since most people who were against it (a large number) have since entirely stopped playing GW2).

WvW’s been in dire straights for years, but HoT was a killing blow. We’re seeing some attempts to resuscitate it, but it’s questionable if they’ll work into the future. The classes are still terribly imbalanced, the gear combinations are still swinging builds wildly, and the sheer powercreep has tremendously hurt the format and peoples’ willingness to consider it seriously.

But the population problems on low servers existed for years. Are you denying this?

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Posted by: DeceiverX.8361

DeceiverX.8361

On many low tier servers, they certainly did exist. Again, I refer to this as population bleeding, and it’s far different from the mass exodus that definitely occurred with the release of HoT. It was a self-fulfilling prophecy because of bad matchmaking, though. The “hardcore” WvW players would move up tiers to get with more populated servers to get more action, which left the low-tier servers with few people, which for those new people interested in the format, they’d see the appeal of high-tiers and the cycle would repeat endlessly.

Strictly speaking, population was out of control since release with the stack-enablement of servers (especially early with free transfers) and slow glicko-based tier system. Population imbalances based on coverage also dictated server tiers as well, which further gave players an incentive to stack based on coverage performance as well. Without coverage, even well-performing servers during their prime (apparent early on in the game when all servers had queues to WvW) would be incapable of winning. Since glicko is slow to adapt and people don’t like to participate in runaway matchups, they’d just simply move to greener pastures, be it other servers, or entirely other games.

WvW in terms of its innately bad matchmaking design caused its decline and slow bleeding. With no attention to fix the flawed design for three years, of course it would bleed players, particularly as the game aged and thus the churn rate would be higher than the new-player acquisition.

We still haven’t seen any changes to matchmaking. The population problem diagnosed with “merges” is a symptom of the problem, not the actual problem itself. Population disparity or lost interest isn’t people being bored of WvW so much as being bored of the matchup and runaway scores every single week with no movement because glicko is too slow to adjust to dynamism. It’s because the format’s matchmaking itself is flawed in design, and we’ve seen no attention or care to fix it, even when the solution using AI techniques exists and ANet had even at one point had a world-famous game AI expert working for them during the development of HoT. Until matchmaking is redone, it doesn’t matter what ANet does; WvW will still bleed players.

And even despite this, there were still many people playing in the high tiers. Did you ever see anyone in T1 complaining that the format was dead? No. There were queues pretty much every primetime every day before HoT. The low servers were dead for reasons I explained above. But now even the high-tier servers are not full anymore. There are definitely less people playing WvW than pre-HoT. That’s not up for debate, and there is a lot of evidence of massive groups of people leaving citing the sole reason for departure being poor design brought on by HoT. These are first-hand accounts, not just maybes.

HoT killed off a large number of players from the “hardcore” WvW scene. This is also why you’re seeing a huge influx of inexperienced commanders/guilds running rampant even on T1 servers, and the GoB-dependency for getting PvE players into the format is there just to try and mask the massively damaged population since HoT.

(edited by DeceiverX.8361)

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Posted by: Vayne.8563

Vayne.8563

On many low tier servers, they certainly did exist. Again, I refer to this as population bleeding, and it’s far different from the mass exodus that definitely occurred with the release of HoT. It was a self-fulfilling prophecy because of bad matchmaking, though. The “hardcore” WvW players would move up tiers to get with more populated servers to get more action, which left the low-tier servers with few people, which for those new people interested in the format, they’d see the appeal of high-tiers and the cycle would repeat endlessly.

Strictly speaking, population was out of control since release with the stack-enablement of servers (especially early with free transfers) and slow glicko-based tier system. Population imbalances based on coverage also dictated server tiers as well, which further gave players an incentive to stack based on coverage performance as well. Without coverage, even well-performing servers during their prime (apparent early on in the game when all servers had queues to WvW) would be incapable of winning. Since glicko is slow to adapt and people don’t like to participate in runaway matchups, they’d just simply move to greener pastures, be it other servers, or entirely other games.

WvW in terms of its innately bad matchmaking design caused its decline and slow bleeding. With no attention to fix the flawed design for three years, of course it would bleed players, particularly as the game aged and thus the churn rate would be higher than the new-player acquisition.

We still haven’t seen any changes to matchmaking. The population problem diagnosed with “merges” is a symptom of the problem, not the actual problem itself. Population disparity or lost interest isn’t people being bored of WvW so much as being bored of the matchup and runaway scores every single week with no movement because glicko is too slow to adjust to dynamism. It’s because the format’s matchmaking itself is flawed in design, and we’ve seen no attention or care to fix it, even when the solution using AI techniques exists and ANet had even at one point had a world-famous game AI expert working for them during the development of HoT. Until matchmaking is redone, it doesn’t matter what ANet does; WvW will still bleed players.

And even despite this, there were still many people playing in the high tiers. Did you ever see anyone in T1 complaining that the format was dead? No. There were queues pretty much every primetime every day before HoT. The low servers were dead for reasons I explained above. But now even the high-tier servers are not full anymore. There are definitely less people playing WvW than pre-HoT. That’s not up for debate, and there is a lot of evidence of massive groups of people leaving citing the sole reason for departure being poor design brought on by HoT. These are first-hand accounts, not just maybes.

HoT killed off a large number of players from the “hardcore” WvW scene. This is also why you’re seeing a huge influx of inexperienced commanders/guilds running rampant even on T1 servers, and the GoB-dependency for getting PvE players into the format is there just to try and mask the massively damaged population since HoT.

But those server mergers for those low pop servers were absolutely needed. Even before the mergers, on TC we were getting queues in WvW at peak times.

And there was always action no matter what time I jumped in.

It’s not about whether the population is higher or lower. Those mergers have been sorely needed for the lower population servers since before HOT ever existed, no matter what HoT did or didn’t do to the population.

We also have a whole new group of people coming into the game as free to play players, replacing people who left.

Might there be less people. It’s possible. But with the changes, I don’t think the population is as much lower as some make it out to be, it’s just different players.

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Posted by: Xillllix.3485

Xillllix.3485

WvW was dead everywhere beside tier 1 (and peak times tier 2) like 6 months before HoT’s release. Even when they did the PvE server merge there was a content drought.
The new trait system completely destroyed the fine class balance they had achieved before HoT was released.

It’s just that HoT was disappointing from a gameplay and content perspective so more people left. I mean, an expansion without any dungeon, raids that are impossible to do for 95% of the players and postponed or cancelled content, how do you expect to keep your players? Specially when you start giving infractions to players who aren’t satisfied and are simply voicing their opinion. Even ESO dlc has dungeons and armors crafting for every new maps and do not make you pay for things that are never released.

The server merge may seem like things are improving, but honestly it’s just something that hides how low the population is now comparing to at release.

(edited by Xillllix.3485)

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Posted by: Halandir.3609

Halandir.3609

No HoT did not ruin GW2.
It DID ruin the hope that some of us had for GW2 but that’s different.

I am sure that Anet keeps looking at their “numbers”: So many logins before HoT, so many bought HoT, so many logins now, so many “raiders”…

It may be crazy successful: No idea!
On a personal level: I am SO done with Anet purchases and their “new direction”, be that Gems for $/€, DLC or DLC shipped as “expansion”.

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Posted by: Zalani.9827

Zalani.9827

I didn’t mind HoT personally,but I haven’t been doing much with GW2 since I’ve been waiting for lS3.
I’m not interested in the raids so I’ve been messing around in other games until then.

Jadis Narnia-Sylvari Ranger of [EDGE]
Dragonbrand

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Posted by: Daddicus.6128

Daddicus.6128

HOT doesnt affect the original game in the slightest apart from adding gliding.

False. Dungeon rewards were slashed, Fractals and core Tyria had gold nerfed into the ground, and experience points were rendered useless. The XP neutering had a corollary effect as well: most boosters, potions, and food lost a significant piece of their value.

SOME of those have been fixed. But, not all.

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Posted by: Daddicus.6128

Daddicus.6128

HoT added a lot of systems to the game that are really good long term designs. Collections, …

Collections were added over a year before HoT.

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Posted by: Dadnir.5038

Dadnir.5038

Are You saying that there was free server transfer at the HoT release? That would explain the server merges then indeed?

No. I’m saying at launch of Guild Wars 2, due to the fact that guesting didn’t make it into the release, that everyone loaded up on the top servers until they were full.

The population problem in WvW is years old. Therefore it can’t be due to HoT, because the problem preceded HoT by at least a couple of years.

The population problem in WvW is an old problem, not a new one.

HoT didn’t do WvW any favors with the new map, but that’s another story. The population problem existed before the new map drove WvW players away.

And WvW has come back a long way since then.

Again, server mergers in WvW (and only in WvW) have nothing to do with HoT.

I’d have to disagree to some extends. If they didn’t start making sweeping changes to stop the bleeding and get a few people back into WvW (also putting PvE requirements like GoB in the reward tracks to make people join), it’s very arguable HoT killed WvW.

It was definitely bleeding quite badly before, but the mass-scale exodus from the format at or near the release of HoT permanently reduced player populations. Servers that were once full are now not. Queues are shorter across the board for previously-populated servers. Tons of guilds have quit entirely solely quoting HoT-only content such as the guild halls removing all upgrade progress and the DBL’s themselves (before you say people have been voting for the inclusion of DBL, the data is skewed to favor it since most people who were against it (a large number) have since entirely stopped playing GW2).

WvW’s been in dire straights for years, but HoT was a killing blow. We’re seeing some attempts to resuscitate it, but it’s questionable if they’ll work into the future. The classes are still terribly imbalanced, the gear combinations are still swinging builds wildly, and the sheer powercreep has tremendously hurt the format and peoples’ willingness to consider it seriously.

But the population problems on low servers existed for years. Are you denying this?

Well the general population server issue for WvW have always been here. Very few WvW guild or player stay on a same server. Peeps just wanna win and to do that they jump from server to top server.

On Eu server there are good exemple of that :
- SFR
- Vizunah
- kodash

All of these servers have got their age of surge and decay of wvw population. This population didn’t go try PvE or PvP. They didn’t let go of the game. They just jumped on the flavored server at that moment. There is no population that is more nomadic than the WvW population. No lingering affection for a server, just want to win and stop being rekt by giant blobs in front that do better than them.

The same way, casual wvw player that farm Edge of the mist want to jump on the winning color (usually green buldoze through the 2 other color due to large excess of wvw player playing Eotm when queueing for wvw on winning server). To be honest, the Eotm balance is even worst than the wvw one since strong server stack on the same color usually.

No core profession should be balanced around an optional elite specialization.

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Posted by: Substance E.4852

Substance E.4852

Might there be less people. It’s possible. But with the changes, I don’t think the population is as much lower as some make it out to be, it’s just different players.

HoT was a silver bullet to the head of WvW. BG went from 4 queued maps on every reset night to literally only queuing EBG on Friday with queues sometimes as high as 50+ because people hated DBL that much.

People only came back after Anet fixed up the DBL, changed some wildly OP skills (CoR, Dh longbow 5), and changed how quickly stability got ripped off you, finally allowing people to melee in group combat once again.

The above changes along with bringing back Alpine and this apparent new interest in updating the game mode put a bandage on the open chest wound the mode was suffering from but it in no way cured it nor has it come out stronger for it.

Connection error(s) detected. Retrying…

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Posted by: RoRo.8270

RoRo.8270

HoT showed me how greedy anet has become. Supported them from beta weekend event from gw1 but they won’t see my support anymore. The expansion was like a dlc content wise yet they charged as much as a full game for it.

They also made all elite specs ridiculously powerful where you are kitten if you do not take them for pvp.

I also can’t stand to be bothered with open world zerg trains. It’s so mindless for how rewarding it is

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Posted by: Galtrix.7369

Galtrix.7369

I can’t say for sure that HoT killed GW2, but I can tell you some things that drove me away from playing GW2 any further.

I played GW2 A LOT at release and I found it really fun… but I soon found myself logging in less and less due to a lack of exciting things to do. When I saw HoT came out, I immediately logged in with my non-HoT account to see what had changed because I was excited.

Things I didn’t like about HoT:
*The expansion costs $50… which wouldn’t be so bad if it were as expansive as the original game. Most of the content of the expansion was made up of “Masteries”, “Specializations”, and other skill additions, making it feel as if I were paying $50 dollars purely so I could win a PvP match and not get stuffed in the face by players with HoT. Yes, I did indeed find out that it is incredibly difficult to kill anyone (on certain classes) without buying HoT. Just these few things kept me from playing further.

*Everything is so complicated now. Granted, I hadn’t played in years, but I logged in only to find myself completely and utterly confused at the jumble of countless new interface windows. No tutorials saying “This is what that is for”. I sat there opening windows for like half an hour asking myself what the heck I was looking at.

Things I like about HoT:
*It added new maps, new raids, and a new class. Standard expansion stuff right there.
*It added a new gliding mechanic, which I think is pretty cool.
*Elite specializations. This one is a double-edged sword. I find the specializations a good concept because it expands the play-how-you-want style, but it also makes balancing the classes a lot more difficult, and it makes everything more complicated than it has to be.

[~Galtrix~] [~Level 80 Elementalist~] [~GoM~]

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Posted by: Vayne.8563

Vayne.8563

HoT showed me how greedy anet has become. Supported them from beta weekend event from gw1 but they won’t see my support anymore. The expansion was like a dlc content wise yet they charged as much as a full game for it.

They also made all elite specs ridiculously powerful where you are kitten if you do not take them for pvp.

I also can’t stand to be bothered with open world zerg trains. It’s so mindless for how rewarding it is

Clearly someone who hasn’t spent that much time in HoT. There are not too many zerg trains. Very often, particularly in AB and TD there not entire zergs. Dragon Stand and Auric Basin are more zerg like, so the game offers different experiences.

There’s also plenty to do that’s not zerging.

Hell half the people are saying there’s not enough people in the new zones and the other half are complaining about zerging. You can’t both be right.

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Posted by: ZeftheWicked.3076

ZeftheWicked.3076

HoT per se is quite good, i love the new jungle maps and verticality, it’s a very good add-on.

Damage done to the game “by HoT” is actually in 3 areas non-gameplay related:

1. abysmal rate of new content releases/balance patches. Raid wings alone do not a new content make for non-raiders.
2. abysmal expansion size for ridicilous official price. If HoT is “a foundation” and that’s one time case only, ok. But many will be very wary before the next xpac, wanting to first be sure it’s “content rich” not “something else (PR jibba-jabba) rich”.
3. broken trust – remember the war over free xpac slot? Or the bait and switch with needing core game to play xpac, then players getting mass refunds after justly raising a kittenstorm? Before when you heard a-net you just opened your wallet, you knew awesome deal with no tricks is coming your way. Now many people will be wary and weigh their options before opening their wallets.

So i don’t blame the xpac itself – it’s great. I blame their development/balance patch speed, sales tricks, and low content to price ratio.

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Posted by: NotOverlyCheesy.9427

NotOverlyCheesy.9427

It didn’t ruin the game. For me it’s the lack of new replayable content that is really starting to get under my skin. I raid twice a week and try to do fractals daily. Although I love the new system for fractals they really need to spice it up with a new instance soon.

In other words I want more of it.

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Posted by: Thraellic.5147

Thraellic.5147

Is GW2 ruined? Maybe. It certainly was. However, Anet has done a lot to clean up the mess. HOT as it launched was a disaster. Most of that disaster has been corrected though, as much as possible anyway considering that most of it was built into the maps. PVP issues excluded, that is still a colossal mess. Anet clearly knows they screwed up. It remains to be seen if they know why.

>HOT began with a brick wall. You hit Verdant Brink, and were instantly locked behind a progression grind because masteries are needed to even navigate the maps. Everyone’s first experience of the expansion was thus completely terrible, full of frustration and “WTF I need to grind for two days to get that Hero Point because of a freaking BOUNCY MUSHROOM?!!!” This has been addressed by reducing the grind to a fraction of what it was, reducing the pain. It can’t be eliminated though, since it’s built into the maps themselves, but at least we can be sure Anet knows it was a mistake.

>HOT maps require mastery progression, but don’t account for that very progress. Imagine if the zones went AB > VB > TD > DS. You’d start with a basic map with some progression helping out (AB), to a map where masteries aren’t required but really are needed to get the most out of it (VB), to a map that’s really only possible at all with masteries (TD), to DS which is really just an epic boss encounter anyway. The maps would progress with your character, and you gain more and more use of your masteries as you move forward. Instead, they threw you right at the wall. Whether they learned this mistake or not is unknown, since they have released no new maps.

>HOT increased the combat difficulty, but again as a sudden wall. The new creatures use a variety of short-telegraph (and some zero-telegraph) punishment mechanics, that you have to learn, anticipate, and then counter. But instead of being eased into the new mechanics that creatures used, you’re left to figure it out when you die suddenly. I actually REALLY like the new combat, but admit that it was frustrating to adjust. My wife, who’s much more casual then I am, still refuses to solo HOT content because her first experience with it was death and frustration. I am certain that Anet lost players over this.

>HOT maps are exclusively meta-event maps. There are no old-school explorable type maps. Furthermore, loot was tied directly to meta-progression, not to personal activity. This means you had to commit to doing the entire 2+ hour event chain to get decent rewards. Casual players who like to log in, do some stuff, go make a sandwich, come back 20 mins later, do more stuff, etc, got completely shafted. Naturally, they left. More customers lost. This has been addressed by breaking rewards into their sub-events, not the overall meta. As a side note, I’m worried that this will affect them in the long-term when people move on to new expac maps, and there’s not enough people left to finish the metas.

>PVP was completely unhinged by elite specs. The sudden, massive power creep not only changed the gameplay meta overnight (which was expected from an expac anyway), but also changed the speed and pace of PVP combat and made it almost a completely different game. It also instantly excluded all non-expansion players. This means that people who were taking a “wait and see” approach to buying the expac saw a classic Buy To Win scenario and fled the game. This has not been fixed and PVP remains unbalanced and terrible.

>WVW had the additional component of needing to unlock the elites, meaning that WVW players now had a grind wall of their own, and were forced into regular PVE to climb it. Naturally, many of them didn’t want to do that and simply left.

>Guild halls were also a bust. They took features that people already had (missions, XP bonuses, etc) and took them away. Then they stuck them in the expansion. They also stuck them behind a massive grind designed for large groups of people, which left small guilds shut out. This was seen as obvious, underhanded way to force people into buying and was heavily protested. Not to mention the small guild players that got shafted. More customers gone. It has not been fixed.

On the upside, Anet seems to have realized most of this and has been slowly eliminating or reducing the problems. Masteries get much more XP now, Elites take fewer points to unlock, meta-event progression has been broken up so you don’t have to play for hours at a time, (DS excluded, that’s kind of locked into the map design), and so on. Power creep and PVP have not been addressed at all, sadly. But it’s not hopeless – the next expac may actually be good if Anet has actually learned these lessons (also, they have a new Creative Lead). I advocate a “wait and see” approach and certainly won’t be pre-ordering the next one, but I’m cautiously optimistic. The power creep worries me though – if the next expansion has the same amount of creep, I’m gone and won’t look back.

This is an excellent post and describes very well my own frustrations with HoT. I’m back playing GW2 after rage quitting taking a break for six months. I still hate that navigation is the main endgame boss in HoT, but Anet did fix a few things with patch updates, most notably dungeons and fractals.

Really hoping they did learn the lessons expressed in the post I quoted. Another expac like this… I’m not sure I’d want to come back again after that. I kinda suspect the same goes for a lot of people.

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Posted by: ZeftheWicked.3076

ZeftheWicked.3076

This is an excellent post and describes very well my own frustrations with HoT. I’m back playing GW2 after rage quitting taking a break for six months. I still hate that navigation is the main endgame boss in HoT, but Anet did fix a few things with patch updates, most notably dungeons and fractals.

Really hoping they did learn the lessons expressed in the post I quoted. Another expac like this… I’m not sure I’d want to come back again after that. I kinda suspect the same goes for a lot of people.

I have to disagree. While the majority of said post is golden, I very much enjoy the maze-like maps. This is a jungle, the feel that you’re slowly biting your way in with mastery system and you own knowledge of the uncharted as the player is a growing factor for me. It’s one of the things i like most about HoT. It’s the pacing of it (due to insufficient amount of PvE maps for everyone (4) and small amount of masteries in total that made it a chore. The experience of having advantage due to…real experience with given maze-like map, and not just some stats or skills feels epic for me.

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Posted by: Sartharina.3542

Sartharina.3542

3. broken trust – remember the war over free xpac slot? Or the bait and switch with needing core game to play xpac, then players getting mass refunds after justly raising a kittenstorm? Before when you heard a-net you just opened your wallet, you knew awesome deal with no tricks is coming your way. Now many people will be wary and weigh their options before opening their wallets.

Actually, neither of the instances of “Broken Trust” had anything to do with A-net. Instead, they were assumptions made by the community. Guild Wars veterans expected a free character slot with the new expansion despite no promise of such, due to precedent. The “Need core to play Xpac” wasn’t a Bait+Switch by Anet – The company’s line has ALWAYS been “Buying HoT includes the base game”. But veterans of every other MMO out there made the assumption that the base game was required before purchasing the expansion. (Frankly, I’m not sure why they didn’t go with "all new Full Game activations after that date include baseline HoT, though)

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Posted by: Vayne.8563

Vayne.8563

3. broken trust – remember the war over free xpac slot? Or the bait and switch with needing core game to play xpac, then players getting mass refunds after justly raising a kittenstorm? Before when you heard a-net you just opened your wallet, you knew awesome deal with no tricks is coming your way. Now many people will be wary and weigh their options before opening their wallets.

Actually, neither of the instances of “Broken Trust” had anything to do with A-net. Instead, they were assumptions made by the community. Guild Wars veterans expected a free character slot with the new expansion despite no promise of such, due to precedent. The “Need core to play Xpac” wasn’t a Bait+Switch by Anet – The company’s line has ALWAYS been “Buying HoT includes the base game”. But veterans of every other MMO out there made the assumption that the base game was required before purchasing the expansion. (Frankly, I’m not sure why they didn’t go with "all new Full Game activations after that date include baseline HoT, though)

Anet definitely made mistakes with how they launched HoT. It was generally too expensive for an expansion that they knew (and said) would be lighter on content. To charge what’s considered a premium price and not offer a character slot was just a bad call. I’m not sure how they didn’t see the backlash coming.

The HoT launch did raise a lot of eyebrows and damage the trust the community had in the game, rightly or otherwise. You can say the community expected certain things, and you’d be right, but they didn’t really expect those things in a vacuum.

If the price was lower, it would have been more acceptable to not provide a character slot. At the price offered, considering they knew there wasn’t a ton of content, you’d think the character slot would be the least they could do.

Offering it as a preorder was a compromise that mollified most of the community, but regardless of that, it wasn’t well done. The base HoT game should have either been cheaper or come with a character slot.

I really like HoT but I really have to question Anet’s judgement on the decisions surrounding the HoT launch.

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Posted by: Drakz.7051

Drakz.7051

HoT did introduce some good thing but on the whole it has damaged the game. It has caused some dedicated people to leave and has split the community with its majority of casual players or average players and the hard core players and this has only increased tension with every raid release with only 10 minute pve content.

As mentioned the real issue here is that they where focused on casual play whilst giving us a great storyline, but HoT introduced an expansion for more experienced players and it also had a mediocre storyline at best, missing many opportunities to go deeper into the games lore. They have also stopped working on legendry weapons for the foreseeable future which was one of their selling points.

They still have a chance to come back from the brink but they do need to decide what their target audience is and put most of their work making the game right for them as right now they have a split focus and people are more unhappy with them now than they where pre HoT.

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Posted by: ZeftheWicked.3076

ZeftheWicked.3076

Actually, neither of the instances of “Broken Trust” had anything to do with A-net. Instead, they were assumptions made by the community. Guild Wars veterans expected a free character slot with the new expansion despite no promise of such, due to precedent. The “Need core to play Xpac” wasn’t a Bait+Switch by Anet – The company’s line has ALWAYS been “Buying HoT includes the base game”. But veterans of every other MMO out there made the assumption that the base game was required before purchasing the expansion. (Frankly, I’m not sure why they didn’t go with "all new Full Game activations after that date include baseline HoT, though)

Sorry but you’re wrong. The “must own a core game for xpac” was a pure bait & switch, deliberate or not. For quite a while there was a notice one must own a core game to play xpac, nothing about core game becoming free to play or free if you buy xpac.
The core game refunds for ppl who fell victim to this change in the sale system are the best proof – multimillion dollar gaming projects don’t happily toss money back at ppl cause they’re “good uncles”. They do so because otherwise players might have a easy to win case in court.

@Vayne – well i’m shocked at your post. My hat goes off, sir. But I will correct one mistake you made – free slot was not for pre-orders as far as i recall. It was for pre-purchases, ensuring a-net gets their money before you get a say. Pre-order can be cancelled and you pay majority or all of it’s price once it’s shipped to you.

(edited by ZeftheWicked.3076)

Did HoT ruin GW2?

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Posted by: Vayne.8563

Vayne.8563

Actually, neither of the instances of “Broken Trust” had anything to do with A-net. Instead, they were assumptions made by the community. Guild Wars veterans expected a free character slot with the new expansion despite no promise of such, due to precedent. The “Need core to play Xpac” wasn’t a Bait+Switch by Anet – The company’s line has ALWAYS been “Buying HoT includes the base game”. But veterans of every other MMO out there made the assumption that the base game was required before purchasing the expansion. (Frankly, I’m not sure why they didn’t go with "all new Full Game activations after that date include baseline HoT, though)

Sorry but you’re wrong. The “must own a core game for xpac” was a pure bait & switch, deliberate or not. For quite a while there was a notice one must own a core game to play xpac, nothing about core game becoming free to play or free if you buy xpac.
The core game refunds for ppl who fell victim to this change in the sale system are the best proof – multimillion dollar gaming projects don’t happily toss money back at ppl cause they’re “good uncles”. They do so because otherwise players might have a easy to win case in court.

@Vayne – well i’m shocked at your post. My hat goes off, sir. But I will correct one mistake you made – free slot was not for pre-orders as far as i recall. It was for pre-purchases, ensuring a-net gets their money before you get a say. Pre-order can be cancelled and you pay majority or all of it’s price once it’s shipped to you.

Well it’s certainly bait and switch if you’re not aware of what bait and switch is. The word you’re probably looking for is false advertising, which is a completely different issue.

Bait and switch has a very specific definition and I promise you, that is NOT it.

Edit: Don’t know why you’re shocked at my post, if I believe something to be bad, I say so. I’ve done it before, I’ll do it again. I just don’t agree with everything everyone else finds bad about the game.

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Posted by: ZeftheWicked.3076

ZeftheWicked.3076

Very well i can settle for “misleading” or said “false advertisement”. Case in point is a-net was industry standard setter when it came to triple A honesty, and HoT made that reputation degrade in eyes of many. I’m looking forward to them redeeming themselves in that area with next xpansion.

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Posted by: Vayne.8563

Vayne.8563

Very well i can settle for “misleading” or said “false advertisement”. Case in point is a-net was industry standard setter when it came to triple A honesty, and HoT made that reputation degrade in eyes of many. I’m looking forward to them redeeming themselves in that area with next xpansion.

It was misleading. Whether it was intentionally misleading or not, or one hand didn’t know what the other was doing is really open to question. We don’t know when the decision to include the core game with HoT was actually made.

Nor do we know that the left hand was talking to the right hand.

Definitely a bad look, but to prove false advertising you also have to prove the intent to deceive. By offering refunds to people who bought within that time frame, it seems to have made the point moot anyway.

Everyone always assumes intent to deceive, even when that doesn’t necessarily exist. Anet has made mistakes before, and they’ll make them again. Now if they didn’t offer refunds, you might have a point. But seeing that people that bought the game from the time they stated you need it till several months after had a refund option…I’m not so sure what the big deal is here.

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Posted by: Killthehealersffs.8940

Killthehealersffs.8940

3. broken trust – remember the war over free xpac slot? Or the bait and switch with needing core game to play xpac, then players getting mass refunds after justly raising a kittenstorm?

GW2 core game was on half price (34 euros) at that time (8-10 months , before the x-pack was anounced)
Hot was anounced and included the core game .

Half the kids around here …. SHOULD I POINT FINGERS ???? …. moaned that they payed for the core game AT LAUNCH and the company should lower the x-pack price .
They singed up a pettition on Reddit (2000 votes …hah ! while we hardly could find 400 UNIQUE PPL (only one post per person) on the main forums , that they wouldnt buy the x-pack

The rest of the on the posters where RIGHTFULLY asking for a refund ,because they paid 34 euros for the core game ,and 2 months later the HOT was anounced (and inclueded the core)
And they did !

Even a small minority where moaning , that they got a refund (34 euros) , but they company should had refund the product and fully upgrade it to HOT (60 euros) instead .

If you want to lower the price , try to find from a busness prospective :
a) Create a thread that you want to buy the x-pack and support the game , BUT YOU DONT HAVE MONEY .
They will do an RP-internet-stun to show the internet that they cater to their audience , and thus will bring more ppl to the game .
b) Some ppl and the pirate king from Milking ways , dont agree a with a person that creates 3 MEGATHREADS that they should put the constumes ingame and instead should sell more x-packs :P
Dotn flip flop your opinions like Sun Wukong from Smite :P

(edited by Killthehealersffs.8940)

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Posted by: ZeftheWicked.3076

ZeftheWicked.3076

I’m so getting deja’vu with these two posts of ours…well nvm. I said my piece, and i guess truth is in between. It’s probably not a-net planning it all out in cold blood, but then again it’s also not them growing angel wings, since there was a large enough time frame for a huge flame war from players, going as far as to reaching few gaming sites’ attention before a-net decided to take proper action (said refunds).

That aside i’ll be soon posting my piece about improving the next xpac. HoT for what it is i like. I don’t like how it was sold and maybe imbalance the elites present vs regular specs. But over all i LOVE the jungle, i love the gliding and foundation is good, but for the next one to hit home it needs certain adjustments and much straightforward, simple and “no tricks” sales model.

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Posted by: Ashen.2907

Ashen.2907

, but to prove false advertising you also have to prove the intent to deceive.

No you do not.

There is a three part test, in law, to determine if an ad is deceptive or false advertising:

1) was a claim made.
2) is the claim likely to mislead a reasonable customer.
3) is the claim material.

Intent to deceive is not relevant. The people at Airborne may very well have believed in every advertised claim made about the health benefits of their product….but got hit with a $30 million dollar fine anyway when the FTC determined that the ads were not factual and did mislead consumers. Again this is regardless of the intent of the people making the claims.

One of the requirements, expectations under the law, placed on an advertiser is that they ensure that the claims being made are accurate. “We didnt intend to deceive, we just didnt feel like checking the facts, doing due diligence, etc,” is not a valid defence against false advertising. If it were then companies could defend against accusations of false advertising by simply stating, “we honestly believed that consuming our candy bar would cure and/or prevent cancer.”

(edited by Ashen.2907)