Guild Wars 2

Forum bug bad! Hulk smash.

I find I spend a vast majority of my time in the old maps over HoT. Why? Meta-events in HoT are much too long and even though you get a lot of loot, the loot is unfulfilling due to RNG (Anet is notorious for this). Map design of HoT is simply annoying due to lack of viable waypoints, so you spend a lot of time running through mobs to get where you need to go, which is BOOORRRRIIINNNG. In Tyria you get where you need to in much shorter time, so you spend more productive time there.

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

, but to prove false advertising you also have to prove the intent to deceive.

No you do not.

There is a three part test, in law, to determine if an ad is deceptive or false advertising:

1) was a claim made.
2) is the claim likely to mislead a reasonable customer.
3) is the claim material.

Intent to deceive is not relevant. The people at Airborne may very well have believed in every advertised claim made about the health benefits of their product….but got hit with a $30 million dollar fine anyway when the FTC determined that the ads were not factual and did mislead consumers. Again this is regardless of the intent of the people making the claims.

One of the requirements, expectations under the law, placed on an advertiser is that they ensure that the claims being made are accurate. “We didnt intend to deceive, we just didnt feel like checking the facts, doing due diligence, etc,” is not a valid defence against false advertising. If it were then companies could defend against accusations of false advertising by simply stating, “we honestly believed that consuming our candy bar would cure and/or prevent cancer.”

They made a change and they offered a refund. No court in the land would convict them of false advertising. Not one. If you don’t believe it, try testing the claim.

Edit: I should ad that’s why tyops in ads aren’t considered false advetising. Because it was simply a mistake.

If an ad publishes a price and it’s a typo, even though the ad is wrong, it’s not considered false advertising…unless you can prove that it was done intentionally in which case it would.

Edit 2: Actually you’re right Ashen. Your definition of false advertising is better than mine. However, in this case, Anet made claims about a product that wasn’t released yet, changed the nature of the release after the fact, and offered a refund. There’s simply no law at all broken here.

Vayne.8563:

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

, but to prove false advertising you also have to prove the intent to deceive.

No you do not.

There is a three part test, in law, to determine if an ad is deceptive or false advertising:

1) was a claim made.
2) is the claim likely to mislead a reasonable customer.
3) is the claim material.

Intent to deceive is not relevant. The people at Airborne may very well have believed in every advertised claim made about the health benefits of their product….but got hit with a $30 million dollar fine anyway when the FTC determined that the ads were not factual and did mislead consumers. Again this is regardless of the intent of the people making the claims.

One of the requirements, expectations under the law, placed on an advertiser is that they ensure that the claims being made are accurate. “We didnt intend to deceive, we just didnt feel like checking the facts, doing due diligence, etc,” is not a valid defence against false advertising. If it were then companies could defend against accusations of false advertising by simply stating, “we honestly believed that consuming our candy bar would cure and/or prevent cancer.”

They made a change and they offered a refund. No court in the land would convict them of false advertising. Not one. If you don’t believe it, try testing the claim.

Edit: I should ad that’s why tyops in ads aren’t considered false advetising. Because it was simply a mistake.

If an ad publishes a price and it’s a typo, even though the ad is wrong, it’s not considered false advertising…unless you can prove that it was done intentionally in which case it would.

Edit 2: Actually you’re right Ashen. Your definition of false advertising is better than mine. However, in this case, Anet made claims about a product that wasn’t released yet, changed the nature of the release after the fact, and offered a refund. There’s simply no law at all broken here.

I am not claiming that there was any false advertisement in this specific situation. Just trying to nail down what false advertisement really is so that misconceptions dont propagate the argument beyond its merits. There was no false advertisement in my opinion.

ZeftheWicked.3076:

The core game refunds for ppl who fell victim to this change in the sale system are the best proof – multimillion dollar gaming projects don’t happily toss money back at ppl cause they’re “good uncles”. They do so because otherwise players might have a easy to win case in court.

Actually, as anyone who’s ever sent a support ticket to Anet can attest, the company’s customer service is remarkably lenient with product replacements and refunds. Your accusations are unfounded based on the company’s actual history for customer service.

ZeftheWicked.3076:

multimillion dollar gaming projects don’t happily toss money back at ppl cause they’re “good uncles”. They do so because otherwise players might have a easy to win case in court.

The most common reason for a business to offer refunds has nothing to do with court cases. It has everything to do with customer good will and reducing barriers to purchase. A customer is much more likely to spend more if they know the company is lenient with its return policies. The reality is that most people will not bother seeking a refund even if knowing that one is available is part of their decision to purchase. Similarly a customer is much more likely to come back to your business to purchase again if their desire to seek a refund on a previous purchase was met with little or no hassle.

Even if the customer is completely in the wrong in seeking a given refund (and I am not saying that they were here) it can be better business to give it to them than to refuse.

Sartharina.3542:

ZeftheWicked.3076:

The core game refunds for ppl who fell victim to this change in the sale system are the best proof – multimillion dollar gaming projects don’t happily toss money back at ppl cause they’re “good uncles”. They do so because otherwise players might have a easy to win case in court.

Actually, as anyone who’s ever sent a support ticket to Anet can attest, the company’s customer service is remarkably lenient with product replacements and refunds. Your accusations are unfounded based on the company’s actual history for customer service.

I agree that ANet policies regarding refunds are better than the industry standards. That does not change the fact that Anet did indeed announce that GW2 ownership was required for HoT access. That was on the HoT web site shortly after the HoT reveal in late January. Until the bundling of core with HoT was announced in June, the natural assumption was that one would have to purchase core to be able to apply HoT. ANet did announce they would refund core purchases made after the initial HoT announcement, which is to their credit. Therefore, it is not the return policy which provides any sort of proof, it is that a specific announcement was made about refunds of those particular purchases in response to the outcry.

Now, back to the topic. That is, I believe, damage to the company/game due to HoT. Loss of faith in a company does not have to be rational. In fact, in many cases, it is going to be irrational. So, while false advertising is not what happened, some people do have trust issues over what happened.

While such an issue might be a last straw for some people, it’s more likely that any detrimental effects on the game or ANet are due to the fact that a lot of complaints have surfaced since HoT was announced. Even if the loss of faith — or players — due to any one issue is small, enough straws can in fact break any camel’s back. It does not look to me that GW2 is at that point yet, if it ever will be. However, it would be irrational to believe that the company does not want to reduce or eliminate similar future fiascos.

Disclaimer: Only virtual camels were used in the making of this post. No real animals were in any way harmed.

Ashen.2907:

ZeftheWicked.3076:

multimillion dollar gaming projects don’t happily toss money back at ppl cause they’re “good uncles”. They do so because otherwise players might have a easy to win case in court.

The most common reason for a business to offer refunds has nothing to do with court cases. It has everything to do with customer good will and reducing barriers to purchase. A customer is much more likely to spend more if they know the company is lenient with its return policies. The reality is that most people will not bother seeking a refund even if knowing that one is available is part of their decision to purchase. Similarly a customer is much more likely to come back to your business to purchase again if their desire to seek a refund on a previous purchase was met with little or no hassle.

Even if the customer is completely in the wrong in seeking a given refund (and I am not saying that they were here) it can be better business to give it to them than to refuse.

No, you were right in what you said, absolutely correct.

But anyone who’s saying this is false advertising or particularly bait and switch is pretty much in the wrong.

It was certainly badly thought out though and badly presented and the launch could have been handled a lot better. In this instance, Anet made a lot of their own problems. I don’t suspect we’ve seen the last of that sort of thing either.

Doam.8305:

I suppose another question could be is it HoT or was it the late response and lack of communication after HoT. People who left don’t want to hear that things can be soloed now or that things are different after months of silence after the launch. They look and they will see Raids and they will see E-sports along with dungeons, underwater, fractals, and so forth tossed under the bus and forgotten because Anet is on their next big kick.

Interesting question- immediately after HoT, for me it was the lack of communication. I left in a huff and returned about 3 months later. Initially, I found the CEO communication (after the creative lead left) positive and the April patch promising but now… I’m just board with the game.

So, in the end, it was both (for me). Lack of communication was a big negative but even when that was removed, they did mess up the game’s enjoyability for me.

With the old GW2, I could play all sorts of different content, as the mood struck me. Usually, I’d play WvW for a month then sPvP, then various PVE or instances. But now, only sPvP was appealing and that eventually got old (as does everything) but there was nothing else to turn to.

The analogy for me: GW2 was like a nicely tuned old-style jeweled mechanical watch. With HoT, they threw a bunch of sand into the mechanism, things that slow down game play. They can either rebuild it or pick the sand out grain by grain but neither is very fast.

I’ll keep an eye on the quarterly updates and in the meantime play other things. I had a lot of fun with GW2 and hope to again… just not really sure that will happen.

BTW the WvW desert maps were bad for WvW but they are gorgeous maps. They should just put some non-WvW content on them.

Imo hot was really fun at the start when others played ,but the grind killed it. Even after the nerfs to grinding I still question if the activities are fun or just a way to get to something fun that isnt in the game yet. Atm I have a hard time justifying the time and money i put into it currently and question why i did previously. On the bright side it has cured my GW2 addiction, so thanks for that.

What HoT is is what gw2 should have started out as. For example: minimal cutscenes, your character has conversations that don’t involve a cutscene. Instances still felt like you’re apart of the story. More challenging content. Raids.

HoT Felt like the right that had gone so wrong in gw2 previously.

Ls is too short still. Content you can complete in less than a day.
Update dungeons, give us underwater content like you promised from the beginning, balance underwater fighting like you should have from the beginning.

Make pvp harder to gain xp, introduce the old systems of pvp boosters- no experience if you lost and tons of experience if you won- it would save pvp.

Vayne.8563:

Anet made a lot of their own problems. I don’t suspect we’ve seen the last of that sort of thing either.

No, we have not seen the last of that sort of thing. But not just from ANet. Companies are generally their own worst enemies. There are hundreds, thousands, or tens of thousands of people acting upon information that may not be completely accurate, in parallel with other people doing the same thing. Mistakes happen. Its a fact of life for every company. The real test of a company is not that they don’t make mistakes, but rather how they respond when they do.

I believe that Anet does well some times, and abysmally poor others. I’d much rather see them aiming higher in this matter.

curtegg.5216:

I find I spend a vast majority of my time in the old maps over HoT. Why? Meta-events in HoT are much too long and even though you get a lot of loot, the loot is unfulfilling due to RNG (Anet is notorious for this). Map design of HoT is simply annoying due to lack of viable waypoints, so you spend a lot of time running through mobs to get where you need to go, which is BOOORRRRIIINNNG. In Tyria you get where you need to in much shorter time, so you spend more productive time there.

I find myself playing mostly in HoT. Can’t think of a reason. Maybe better loot. HoT is almost like a 24/7 WB train except without being stuck on a schedule. I don’t bother with the meta in general though. I do participate if I happen to arrive on a map and it is going on.

Getting around HoT isn’t much of an issue after the April patch at least if you have all the relevant masteries.

It ruined the balance. THATS for sure.

HoT powercreep is the worst in the game’s history. HoT traits and builds barely take any skill to use and they give you so much room for error.

I bought HoT but don’t play it. That said, gliding was brilliant and I played enough to get it. Elite specializations were interesting but Reaper is the only one I got excited about and play at all. I play Ranger a bit and it’s elite may be a good class but it’s completely outside the ranger archetype—if you want to play a Ranger you probably want to play a ranger.

I think HoT can be improved but not fixed. The obscurity of the maps, platformer gameplay, and grind, are all deep-designed into HoT and nothing you can easily rectify. I’m still playing vanilla and will until I find something equivalently interesting.

I’ve actually found it a lot of fun.

Sure it took a bit of getting use to and I had to change my play-style/build with my character/s, but I think any expansion should do that to more or less of a degree.

Is it perfect? Not a chance, but nothing ever is, and there are parts I don’t like, but that’s life. But on the whole the positives far outweigh the negatives.

I found HoT to be a ton of fun, and overall enjoyed it. But at the same time, it left a really bad taste in my mouth for a few reasons.

1. After 3 long years of ANET experimenting with releasing content, it was half an expansion at best for $50. Considering GW2 was 3 years old at the time it released, it felt to me like it didn’t have the same sort of scope a GW1 campaign/expansion would have had and to me that was a huge disappointment. 3 years in Tyria and only 4 new PvE maps, plus some raids and guild halls (which should have existed from the beginning, but I digress) just didn’t feel like what I would be used to in an actual expansion.

2. Story – Let’s be honest here, the story was incredibly rushed through with HoT with hardly any chance to go into detail about many of the things we should have gone into. One of my biggest complaints on this front was after Season 2 we saw the bandits retreat into the jungle, and then….nothing in HoT (raids aside). I’m not in a position to be able to raid, so that’s content I’m unlikely to see. At least it looks like they are addressing the White Mantle/bandits in Season 3. What about how Rytlock became a revenant? Caithe? A broader more in depth story like, again, what I would have expected out of a GW1 campaign would have been welcome. But yeah, the scope of the story felt like a living story season then akin to an actual expansion. Season 1 with Scarlett and then Season 2 spent 3 long years setting up Mordremoth and then HoT released and the story was a blip.

3. Grind – Since GW1, ANET’s supposed mission was to eliminate grind. Since Nightfall, I’d say they’ve pretty much failed at that. HoT was a grindfest.

4. Promised Content that never came – You all know what I am talking about here. ANET promised things as part of the expansion and indeed a selling point of the expansion, though “it will come later”, and then of course they later said “never mind, too hard”.

The distinction between F2P specs and Elite specs is too significant. In that regard, yes, HoT did some damage.

Why is this even debated, even Anet admited indirectly HoT was a bust, hence why they are trying to salvage what they can now.
Yes, HoT failed in all aspects, minus the art and music departments.

VaLee.5102:

Why is this even debated, even Anet admited indirectly HoT was a bust, hence why they are trying to salvage what they can now.
Yes, HoT failed in all aspects, minus the art and music departments.

Actually HoT didn’t fail in all aspects. For a company to say sales didn’t meet expectations, and specifically saying new players didn’t buy into it, is very different from saying existing players didn’t buy it. NcSoft didn’t say HoT failed. They said sales weren’t up to what they expected, having gone free to play and expected more people to pay.

I still say the biggest barrier to that is pricing and nothing more. It’s being debated because people read a single line from a half an hour conference call and infer all sorts of things from that.

NcSoft said they made some mistakes. But those mistakes were NOT identified. The mistakes NcSoft made was getting a bunch of bad publicity before launch by not including a character slot, by making the price too high and by kittening off veteran players, having nothing to do with the expansion itself.

What I don’t get is why they didn’t lower the price in any way after almost 9 months… 50 is too high for such little content. We haven’t seen anything than four maps soon one year into the expansion – that’s just embarrassing given the fact there a mere 4 maps.

Vayne.8563:

VaLee.5102:

Why is this even debated, even Anet admited indirectly HoT was a bust, hence why they are trying to salvage what they can now.
Yes, HoT failed in all aspects, minus the art and music departments.

Actually HoT didn’t fail in all aspects. For a company to say sales didn’t meet expectations, and specifically saying new players didn’t buy into it, is very different from saying existing players didn’t buy it. NcSoft didn’t say HoT failed. They said sales weren’t up to what they expected, having gone free to play and expected more people to pay.

I still say the biggest barrier to that is pricing and nothing more. It’s being debated because people read a single line from a half an hour conference call and infer all sorts of things from that.

NcSoft said they made some mistakes. But those mistakes were NOT identified. The mistakes NcSoft made was getting a bunch of bad publicity before launch by not including a character slot, by making the price too high and by kittening off veteran players, having nothing to do with the expansion itself.

Given the context of the call (talking to investors) the mistakes by NCSoft referred to were almost certainly related to revenue prediction. Any mistakes related to XPac design, concept, marketing, execution, etc, would have been the province of the designer/publisher, ANet, not the parent company.

ProtoGunner.4953:

What I don’t get is why they didn’t lower the price in any way after almost 9 months… 50 is too high for such little content. We haven’t seen anything than four maps soon one year into the expansion – that’s just embarrassing given the fact there a mere 4 maps.

Since LS3 availability is tied to HoT purchase, they could be waiting to see if more buy when said new content ships. The LS does sweeten the pot.

Regarding LS3 ,like someone from another game said: “Hell, it’s about time!”

IndigoSundown.5419:

Vayne.8563:

VaLee.5102:

Why is this even debated, even Anet admited indirectly HoT was a bust, hence why they are trying to salvage what they can now.
Yes, HoT failed in all aspects, minus the art and music departments.

Actually HoT didn’t fail in all aspects. For a company to say sales didn’t meet expectations, and specifically saying new players didn’t buy into it, is very different from saying existing players didn’t buy it. NcSoft didn’t say HoT failed. They said sales weren’t up to what they expected, having gone free to play and expected more people to pay.

I still say the biggest barrier to that is pricing and nothing more. It’s being debated because people read a single line from a half an hour conference call and infer all sorts of things from that.

NcSoft said they made some mistakes. But those mistakes were NOT identified. The mistakes NcSoft made was getting a bunch of bad publicity before launch by not including a character slot, by making the price too high and by kittening off veteran players, having nothing to do with the expansion itself.

Given the context of the call (talking to investors) the mistakes by NCSoft referred to were almost certainly related to revenue prediction. Any mistakes related to XPac design, concept, marketing, execution, etc, would have been the province of the designer/publisher, ANet, not the parent company.

Sure and revenue prediction as far as they said was that they expected new players who were free to play to pick up HoT in greater numbers. That’s all that was directly said at any point. Not that the game failed abyssmally because when that happens there are usually layoffs or at least more negative language.

As an example when Blizzard was losing players quickly they told their investors they were “haemorrhaging subscribers”. NcSoft didn’t use that kind of language.

ProtoGunner.4953:

What I don’t get is why they didn’t lower the price in any way after almost 9 months… 50 is too high for such little content. We haven’t seen anything than four maps soon one year into the expansion – that’s just embarrassing given the fact there a mere 4 maps.

Not to pick on your wording but there really are more than four maps as far as content design and time went. Two guild hall maps each took time to create and some people do love their guild halls. I’m one of them.

Desert borderland maps is a map. It’s not in the game right now but it will be coming back in one form or another. That’s also another map.

And the new PvP map, that’s a map too.

It’s four open world PvE maps, some of the most complex in the game. It’s very different than saying four maps is pathetic.

Sometimes I think people aren’t looking at the amount of work that went into the expansion as a whole.

Vayne.8563:

ProtoGunner.4953:

What I don’t get is why they didn’t lower the price in any way after almost 9 months… 50 is too high for such little content. We haven’t seen anything than four maps soon one year into the expansion – that’s just embarrassing given the fact there a mere 4 maps.

Not to pick on your wording but there really are more than four maps as far as content design and time went. Two guild hall maps each took time to create and some people do love their guild halls. I’m one of them.

Desert borderland maps is a map. It’s not in the game right now but it will be coming back in one form or another. That’s also another map.

And the new PvP map, that’s a map too.

It’s four open world PvE maps, some of the most complex in the game. It’s very different than saying four maps is pathetic.

Sometimes I think people aren’t looking at the amount of work that went into the expansion as a whole.

I don’t speak about quality and the fact that those maps are rather complex. They are of course. But still, it is just too few content. In WoW you get 2 raids, 8 dungeons and about 7-8 maps to explore, and 2-3 months later there is another 1-2 dungeons, a new map and 1 new raid. I mean it’s so much more content it really hurts.

What I don’t get is why don’t they do what people want? Just push out more maps, make them simpler, people don’t like fancy and gimmicky stuff as they had to realize when Aetherpath failed. Anet always has this dream of re-inventing the wheel and fail at the people’s expectations. It is a noble intention, indeed, but at the end you have to deliver.

ProtoGunner.4953:

Vayne.8563:

ProtoGunner.4953:

What I don’t get is why they didn’t lower the price in any way after almost 9 months… 50 is too high for such little content. We haven’t seen anything than four maps soon one year into the expansion – that’s just embarrassing given the fact there a mere 4 maps.

Not to pick on your wording but there really are more than four maps as far as content design and time went. Two guild hall maps each took time to create and some people do love their guild halls. I’m one of them.

Desert borderland maps is a map. It’s not in the game right now but it will be coming back in one form or another. That’s also another map.

And the new PvP map, that’s a map too.

It’s four open world PvE maps, some of the most complex in the game. It’s very different than saying four maps is pathetic.

Sometimes I think people aren’t looking at the amount of work that went into the expansion as a whole.

I don’t speak about quality and the fact that those maps are rather complex. They are of course. But still, it is just too few content. In WoW you get 2 raids, 8 dungeons and about 7-8 maps to explore, and 2-3 months later there is another 1-2 dungeons, a new map and 1 new raid. I mean it’s so much more content it really hurts.

What I don’t get is why don’t they do what people want? Just push out more maps, make them simpler, people don’t like fancy and gimmicky stuff as they had to realize when Aetherpath failed. Anet always has this dream of re-inventing the wheel and fail at the people’s expectations. It is a noble intention, indeed, but at the end you have to deliver.

In WoW you get a year long content drought (see the complaints on their forums you can google it now) and you don’t pay $50 for that expansion. You pay $15 a month and $50 for that expansion. It’s a bad comparison.

Our expansion is more worth $50 than the WoW expansion is worth $200. That’s my opinion of course,. but you have to look at the whole picture, not just the part of it you want to point out.

The whole picture is that WoW is produced by Blizzard which is a much bigger entity than Anet and they have a lot more capital. Last I saw, I didn’t see William Shatner or Chuck Norris in a Guild Wars 2 commercial. They have the numbers. They have a sub. And each and every person playing pays a lot more than $50 for that content you’ve listed. And three months after, people are still complaining there’s nothing to do.

Proto – agreed on HoT needing more maps for it’s price. Both in open PvE (not guild halls), and spvp. Insuficient amount of content is the cause of both players not grabbing as many copies as was expected, and of this over the top grind that many point out.

Disagreed on not wanting complex maps – this is Guild Wars game. More then other games of its gendre this one is about players overcoming challenges with their grit and skill, and not just getting everything handed to them. The new challenge of exploring and mastering this beuatiful, fullly 3D maps is a joy i don’t get to experience much elsewhere. I do not wish to see GW2 return to generic flat map model of every other game out there. Especially now that we have gliders begging to be used and abused;)

ZeftheWicked.3076:

Proto – agreed on HoT needing more maps for it’s price. Both in open PvE (not guild halls), and spvp. Insuficient amount of content is the cause of both players not grabbing as many copies as was expected, and of this over the top grind that many point out.

Disagreed on not wanting complex maps – this is Guild Wars game. More then other games of its gendre this one is about players overcoming challenges with their grit and skill, and not just getting everything handed to them. The new challenge of exploring and mastering this beuatiful, fullly 3D maps is a joy i don’t get to experience much elsewhere. I do not wish to see GW2 return to generic flat map model of every other game out there. Especially now that we have gliders begging to be used and abused;)

I like the complex map, but most people don’t. Just read the forums. We are in a very casual era of gaming where people like to play 30mins and go off again.

The solution is somewhere in the middle: you have to offer complex maps with meta large meta events but also easy accessible maps.

@vayne, I think they pretty much failed with Draenor (first expansion I never played), but it used to be much better with constant stream of content. And yeah: 12€/month is quite a lot, I agree but then again, I bought gems in the 4 digits amount and so did others. I don’t think their revenue is worse than in subscription based games.

HoT did not ruin the game for me. The expansion added raids and allowed me to play a healer in the form of a druid. The only thing that keeps me in this game now (and the possibility of a fun next PvP season, I guess).

HoT was amazing for me in the long term but it does take a while to adapt to the content.

Only now am I getting close to finishing off The Golden Child for 100 Tarir victories and I still have a few more hurdles for Nevermore IV, all done very casually.

ProtoGunner.4953:

ZeftheWicked.3076:

Proto – agreed on HoT needing more maps for it’s price. Both in open PvE (not guild halls), and spvp. Insuficient amount of content is the cause of both players not grabbing as many copies as was expected, and of this over the top grind that many point out.

Disagreed on not wanting complex maps – this is Guild Wars game. More then other games of its gendre this one is about players overcoming challenges with their grit and skill, and not just getting everything handed to them. The new challenge of exploring and mastering this beuatiful, fullly 3D maps is a joy i don’t get to experience much elsewhere. I do not wish to see GW2 return to generic flat map model of every other game out there. Especially now that we have gliders begging to be used and abused;)

I like the complex map, but most people don’t. Just read the forums. We are in a very casual era of gaming where people like to play 30mins and go off again.

The solution is somewhere in the middle: you have to offer complex maps with meta large meta events but also easy accessible maps.

@vayne, I think they pretty much failed with Draenor (first expansion I never played), but it used to be much better with constant stream of content. And yeah: 12€/month is quite a lot, I agree but then again, I bought gems in the 4 digits amount and so did others. I don’t think their revenue is worse than in subscription based games.

Guild Wars 2 makes about 8 million a month. WoW, even when they were down to 4 million subscribers made 60 million a month. Not sure why you think they can be compared.

Also the industry 8 years ago can’t be compared to the industry now. It’s a very different animal with every different costs. Voice acting is very highly priced. What happened in the past has no bearing on anything.

Right now, WoW makes many times, many many times what Guild Wars 2 does every quarter and that’s pretty much uncontestable.

Vayne.8563:

ProtoGunner.4953:

ZeftheWicked.3076:

Proto – agreed on HoT needing more maps for it’s price. Both in open PvE (not guild halls), and spvp. Insuficient amount of content is the cause of both players not grabbing as many copies as was expected, and of this over the top grind that many point out.

Disagreed on not wanting complex maps – this is Guild Wars game. More then other games of its gendre this one is about players overcoming challenges with their grit and skill, and not just getting everything handed to them. The new challenge of exploring and mastering this beuatiful, fullly 3D maps is a joy i don’t get to experience much elsewhere. I do not wish to see GW2 return to generic flat map model of every other game out there. Especially now that we have gliders begging to be used and abused;)

I like the complex map, but most people don’t. Just read the forums. We are in a very casual era of gaming where people like to play 30mins and go off again.

The solution is somewhere in the middle: you have to offer complex maps with meta large meta events but also easy accessible maps.

@vayne, I think they pretty much failed with Draenor (first expansion I never played), but it used to be much better with constant stream of content. And yeah: 12€/month is quite a lot, I agree but then again, I bought gems in the 4 digits amount and so did others. I don’t think their revenue is worse than in subscription based games.

Guild Wars 2 makes about 8 million a month. WoW, even when they were down to 4 million subscribers made 60 million a month. Not sure why you think they can be compared.

Also the industry 8 years ago can’t be compared to the industry now. It’s a very different animal with every different costs. Voice acting is very highly priced. What happened in the past has no bearing on anything.

Right now, WoW makes many times, many many times what Guild Wars 2 does every quarter and that’s pretty much uncontestable.

I think the problem is that the industry standard that we’ve come to expect regarding boxed expansions left Heart of Thorns lacking in real estate. For example Rift’s Storm Legion released with two continents with complete story paths for both, with open world events for each map, half a dozen 5 mans, the 1st tier of raid completely there from day one, new raid rifts, a form of repeatable open world end game called Torvan Hunts I think, 4 new souls for their four classes; now granted at the time Rift was a subscriber game but it was pulling in no where near what WoW was at that time.

I’m sure it would have been more reasonable for Heart of Thorns to launch with at least 6 maps, the new Raid intact, a few new Fractals, and the legendaries done.

As far as I’m concerned ANet only gave us half the expansion and I expect the other half to ship before its one year aniversary or they better give out refunds for half of what we paid.

PS even Woodenpotatoes said we got less than we paid for.

Oldirtbeard.9834:

Vayne.8563:

ProtoGunner.4953:

ZeftheWicked.3076:

Proto – agreed on HoT needing more maps for it’s price. Both in open PvE (not guild halls), and spvp. Insuficient amount of content is the cause of both players not grabbing as many copies as was expected, and of this over the top grind that many point out.

Disagreed on not wanting complex maps – this is Guild Wars game. More then other games of its gendre this one is about players overcoming challenges with their grit and skill, and not just getting everything handed to them. The new challenge of exploring and mastering this beuatiful, fullly 3D maps is a joy i don’t get to experience much elsewhere. I do not wish to see GW2 return to generic flat map model of every other game out there. Especially now that we have gliders begging to be used and abused;)

I like the complex map, but most people don’t. Just read the forums. We are in a very casual era of gaming where people like to play 30mins and go off again.

The solution is somewhere in the middle: you have to offer complex maps with meta large meta events but also easy accessible maps.

@vayne, I think they pretty much failed with Draenor (first expansion I never played), but it used to be much better with constant stream of content. And yeah: 12€/month is quite a lot, I agree but then again, I bought gems in the 4 digits amount and so did others. I don’t think their revenue is worse than in subscription based games.

Guild Wars 2 makes about 8 million a month. WoW, even when they were down to 4 million subscribers made 60 million a month. Not sure why you think they can be compared.

Also the industry 8 years ago can’t be compared to the industry now. It’s a very different animal with every different costs. Voice acting is very highly priced. What happened in the past has no bearing on anything.

Right now, WoW makes many times, many many times what Guild Wars 2 does every quarter and that’s pretty much uncontestable.

I think the problem is that the industry standard that we’ve come to expect regarding boxed expansions left Heart of Thorns lacking in real estate. For example Rift’s Storm Legion released with two continents with complete story paths for both, with open world events for each map, half a dozen 5 mans, the 1st tier of raid completely there from day one, new raid rifts, a form of repeatable open world end game called Torvan Hunts I think, 4 new souls for their four classes; now granted at the time Rift was a subscriber game but it was pulling in no where near what WoW was at that time.

I’m sure it would have been more reasonable for Heart of Thorns to launch with at least 6 maps, the new Raid intact, a few new Fractals, and the legendaries done.

As far as I’m concerned ANet only gave us half the expansion and I expect the other half to ship before its one year aniversary or they better give out refunds for half of what we paid.

PS even Woodenpotatoes said we got less than we paid for.

The real problem is, people don’t listen. Anet said beforehand this expansion would be light on content because they were essentially rewriting the game. They were pretty clear about it generally.

So if the expansion was light on content, after Anet told us to expect that, then what can you really say? Yes, you told us but we don’t care? Okay.

People say Anet gives us no information. They told us. Elite specs and masteries and that stuff were all part of the content.

Those new legendary quests take ages and they’re pretty fun and engaging, more so than the last stuff. I’ve really enjoyed making Nevermore, I’m on tier 4. I sort of wish more people did it, so they’d keep going with more legendaries.

As for Rift, when it offered the first expansion, the content it was coming out with prior to the expansion was paltry. They had these terrible little events, farm here for these rewards and farm here for those rewards. I remember.

And Rift came out with an expansion at a time when the game was really on the nose. That expansion wasn’t even particularly well received.

But up until that point, even if they had only half a million subs, they were still making more each month just on subs than Guild Wars 2 made total…and they still had a cash shop on top of that.

Regardless it’s over 9 months now, so the “light content” either will get pad properly with LS3, or they’ll have to be very, VERY clear that next xpansion is full of content to the point of morbid obesity..

ZeftheWicked.3076:

Regardless it’s over 9 months now, so the “light content” either will get pad properly with LS3, or they’ll have to be very, VERY clear that next xpansion is full of content to the point of morbid obesity..

I think much of the fan base doesn’t actually see it the way you do. Just my opinion but I stand by it. Plenty of people are playing and enjoying HoT, working on achievements and collections. Some are raiding. Some are enjoying WvW.

You can’t really speak for anyone but yourself and those like you. We don’t really know how big that group is.

We also don’t know what the next expansion will sell for.

Much of the fanbase indeed does not share my viewpoint. The problem is that a huge chunk of GW2 players are not *fan*base. Majority of F2P players came no sooner then launch of HoT and before shelling out $50 for HoT they decided to try core game for free. Why buy something you’re not even sure you like?

By the time they decided what their stance on core GW2 is and grew their characters to 80, initial hype died down to reasonable levels, and both reviewer and player feedback about genuine content and issues with HoT has surfaced giving them far more objective view on the purchase of HoT. Now let’s summarize a F2P player’s perspective:

- huge, engaging core game = $0
- 4 maps (+ 2 guild halls if you’re in one, not everyone is) if you’re a PvE’er (most are) – extra 50$.

And a-net wonders why sales are not meeting expectations….
With core players disappointed (mostly about amount of content vs hype+price) and F2P delaying their decision to jump ship to HoT (it costs 50$, and come next xpac it’ll be free!) it’s nor surprise sales are rock bottom on the F2P front…

Let’s be honest here: Milk got spilled, no use crying about it, but a-net can either mop it up and be done with it, or leave it there to rot and start smelling.
Soon we’ll know the answer as the issue can’t stick around forever and now is really the time to take action, such as:

a) LS3 delivering huge chunks of new HoT content – that’s probably best choice for them – with this addition HoT may become worthy of its asking price and they both save face and get those xpac copy sales moving, along with regaining some of the lost trust from fanbase.

b) they bend their neck, lower official HoT price, admitting the mistaken price/content appraisal. Yes they can lower it via 3rd party retailers, but doing it officially is like publically admitting their mistake. While it may hurt their pride and upset some players that recently bought it at full price, it is a way to gain back respect of many players.

c) they start HoT sale. Not much in terms of regaining player sympathy but it will get many undecided core players to jump ship.

Regardless the time has never been riper to do something about the current situation of HoT sales and player faith in company.

ZeftheWicked.3076:

Much of the fanbase indeed does not share my viewpoint. The problem is that a huge chunk of GW2 players are not *fan*base. Majority of F2P players came no sooner then launch of HoT and before shelling out $50 for HoT they decided to try core game for free. Why buy something you’re not even sure you like?

By the time they decided what their stance on core GW2 is and grew their characters to 80, initial hype died down to reasonable levels, and both reviewer and player feedback about genuine content and issues with HoT has surfaced giving them far more objective view on the purchase of HoT. Now let’s summarize a F2P player’s perspective:

- huge, engaging core game = $0
- 4 maps (+ 2 guild halls if you’re in one, not everyone is) if you’re a PvE’er (most are) – extra 50$.

And a-net wonders why sales are not meeting expectations….
With core players disappointed (mostly about amount of content vs hype+price) and F2P delaying their decision to jump ship to HoT (it costs 50$, and come next xpac it’ll be free!) it’s nor surprise sales are rock bottom on the F2P front…

Let’s be honest here: Milk got spilled, no use crying about it, but a-net can either mop it up and be done with it, or leave it there to rot and start smelling.
Soon we’ll know the answer as the issue can’t stick around forever and now is really the time to take action, such as:

a) LS3 delivering huge chunks of new HoT content – that’s probably best choice for them – with this addition HoT may become worthy of its asking price and they both save face and get those xpac copy sales moving, along with regaining some of the lost trust from fanbase.

b) they bend their neck, lower official HoT price, admitting the mistaken price/content appraisal. Yes they can lower it via 3rd party retailers, but doing it officially is like publically admitting their mistake. While it may hurt their pride and upset some players that recently bought it at full price, it is a way to gain back respect of many players.

c) they start HoT sale. Not much in terms of regaining player sympathy but it will get many undecided core players to jump ship.

Regardless the time has never been riper to do something about the current situation of HoT sales and player faith in company.

I don’t think I can disagree with this post more. If they like the game, they get three extra character slots, get daily log in rewards, have all their restrictions removed. And I don’t believe most players even read forums or reddit. It’s just not how people are. They play a game they like it and they either buy it or don’t. That’s why the 80 level thing came out. People weren’t leveling fast enough.

Vayne.8563:

ZeftheWicked.3076:

Much of the fanbase indeed does not share my viewpoint. The problem is that a huge chunk of GW2 players are not *fan*base. Majority of F2P players came no sooner then launch of HoT and before shelling out $50 for HoT they decided to try core game for free. Why buy something you’re not even sure you like?

By the time they decided what their stance on core GW2 is and grew their characters to 80, initial hype died down to reasonable levels, and both reviewer and player feedback about genuine content and issues with HoT has surfaced giving them far more objective view on the purchase of HoT. Now let’s summarize a F2P player’s perspective:

- huge, engaging core game = $0
- 4 maps (+ 2 guild halls if you’re in one, not everyone is) if you’re a PvE’er (most are) – extra 50$.

And a-net wonders why sales are not meeting expectations….
With core players disappointed (mostly about amount of content vs hype+price) and F2P delaying their decision to jump ship to HoT (it costs 50$, and come next xpac it’ll be free!) it’s nor surprise sales are rock bottom on the F2P front…

Let’s be honest here: Milk got spilled, no use crying about it, but a-net can either mop it up and be done with it, or leave it there to rot and start smelling.
Soon we’ll know the answer as the issue can’t stick around forever and now is really the time to take action, such as:

a) LS3 delivering huge chunks of new HoT content – that’s probably best choice for them – with this addition HoT may become worthy of its asking price and they both save face and get those xpac copy sales moving, along with regaining some of the lost trust from fanbase.

b) they bend their neck, lower official HoT price, admitting the mistaken price/content appraisal. Yes they can lower it via 3rd party retailers, but doing it officially is like publically admitting their mistake. While it may hurt their pride and upset some players that recently bought it at full price, it is a way to gain back respect of many players.

c) they start HoT sale. Not much in terms of regaining player sympathy but it will get many undecided core players to jump ship.

Regardless the time has never been riper to do something about the current situation of HoT sales and player faith in company.

I don’t think I can disagree with this post more. If they like the game, they get three extra character slots, get daily log in rewards, have all their restrictions removed. And I don’t believe most players even read forums or reddit. It’s just not how people are. They play a game they like it and they either buy it or don’t. That’s why the 80 level thing came out. People weren’t leveling fast enough.

The problem is that by the time they reach 80 and experienced a huge chunk of the game, a large number of people are no longer incentivized to purchase.

The FtP version should have taken a lesson from WoW – FtP only up to level 20.

As someone who actually purchased FOUR copies of HoT as soon as it was available. Two for great in-game friends and Two for my accounts so I could farm my home instance twice as much. The final product of HoT was highly disappointing. Now, 9 months in, of the four accounts, at best we log in for 10 mins a month. The highest mastery points obtained is 70, with the average around 33, as they are a boring grind. I took a break from HoT and just worked on another leggie back in Feb. to bring my tally up to 10 leggies, but even that wasnt enough to re-kindle any love of the game as it stands now.

kurfu.5623:

Vayne.8563:

ZeftheWicked.3076:

Much of the fanbase indeed does not share my viewpoint. The problem is that a huge chunk of GW2 players are not *fan*base. Majority of F2P players came no sooner then launch of HoT and before shelling out $50 for HoT they decided to try core game for free. Why buy something you’re not even sure you like?

By the time they decided what their stance on core GW2 is and grew their characters to 80, initial hype died down to reasonable levels, and both reviewer and player feedback about genuine content and issues with HoT has surfaced giving them far more objective view on the purchase of HoT. Now let’s summarize a F2P player’s perspective:

- huge, engaging core game = $0
- 4 maps (+ 2 guild halls if you’re in one, not everyone is) if you’re a PvE’er (most are) – extra 50$.

And a-net wonders why sales are not meeting expectations….
With core players disappointed (mostly about amount of content vs hype+price) and F2P delaying their decision to jump ship to HoT (it costs 50$, and come next xpac it’ll be free!) it’s nor surprise sales are rock bottom on the F2P front…

Let’s be honest here: Milk got spilled, no use crying about it, but a-net can either mop it up and be done with it, or leave it there to rot and start smelling.
Soon we’ll know the answer as the issue can’t stick around forever and now is really the time to take action, such as:

a) LS3 delivering huge chunks of new HoT content – that’s probably best choice for them – with this addition HoT may become worthy of its asking price and they both save face and get those xpac copy sales moving, along with regaining some of the lost trust from fanbase.

b) they bend their neck, lower official HoT price, admitting the mistaken price/content appraisal. Yes they can lower it via 3rd party retailers, but doing it officially is like publically admitting their mistake. While it may hurt their pride and upset some players that recently bought it at full price, it is a way to gain back respect of many players.

c) they start HoT sale. Not much in terms of regaining player sympathy but it will get many undecided core players to jump ship.

Regardless the time has never been riper to do something about the current situation of HoT sales and player faith in company.

I don’t think I can disagree with this post more. If they like the game, they get three extra character slots, get daily log in rewards, have all their restrictions removed. And I don’t believe most players even read forums or reddit. It’s just not how people are. They play a game they like it and they either buy it or don’t. That’s why the 80 level thing came out. People weren’t leveling fast enough.

The problem is that by the time they reach 80 and experienced a huge chunk of the game, a large number of people are no longer incentivized to purchase.

The FtP version should have taken a lesson from WoW – FtP only up to level 20.

Not sure I agree. They haven’t experienced gliding which changes the game profoundly for a lot of people. For me it was one of the best additions Anet made to the game. They also can’t experience raids, they can’t get legendary precursors, can’t get to max level fractals or even get all fractal rewards, it’s far far harder to make any ascended armor and weapons.

And of course they’ll be locked out of all story moving forward.

More and more stuff will come that people are just locked out of.

I don’t know about you but if I were walking around this game and I looked up and saw people gliding over me, I’d want the expansion just for that alone probably.

slashlizardy.9167:

As someone who actually purchased FOUR copies of HoT as soon as it was available. Two for great in-game friends and Two for my accounts so I could farm my home instance twice as much. The final product of HoT was highly disappointing. Now, 9 months in, of the four accounts, at best we log in for 10 mins a month. The highest mastery points obtained is 70, with the average around 33, as they are a boring grind. I took a break from HoT and just worked on another leggie back in Feb. to bring my tally up to 10 leggies, but even that wasnt enough to re-kindle any love of the game as it stands now.

So you never tried HoT after the April revamp? That sounds very strange to me.

Yea i tried it and the maps are still dead

kurfu.5623:

The problem is that by the time they reach 80 and experienced a huge chunk of the game, a large number of people are no longer incentivized to purchase.

The FtP version should have taken a lesson from WoW – FtP only up to level 20.

This guy gets it. Would you pay a full new sports car price for a nice looking, spare tire and a paint job on your current one you got for free? Ofc not! It’s overprice, sentiments be kitten ed! You’ll look to get the biggest bang for the buck, probably another fully functional sports car even if it’s of totally different brand and you’re not very sentimental with them yet.

The more you get for free, the bigger, more reasonably priced and appealing the payed portion must be to logically justify the purchase. And here even the original B2P players who did pay $60 for core GW2 at launch find it lacking for the price.

Not to say it’s not epic fun (to would be buyers) – it is. But the price/content ratio..well free market already verified that one.

slashlizardy.9167:

Yea i tried it and the maps are still dead

I feel that I’ve read many posts over many threads made to the effect of ‘the HoT maps are dead, so that’s evidence that it’s a failure.’ Enough times that I’ve been pondering this a little (I’m open to the possibility I’m mistaken about the frequency I’ve read such posts). But, is it possible that something else is going on?

The HoT maps have more meta events requiring a larger player count to participate. So, it’d make sense then that the player base needs to be more proactive about getting on populated maps… Players now use squads and taxis a lot more in HoT maps than in core Tyria maps to help make sure the meta events succeed.

So, if someone just solo ports in to a HoT map, then it’s also more likely they’ll jump into an empty map because that’s how the megaservers were set up to do in reaction to full(er) maps. This then might create a false perception that HoT maps are empty, when they’re actually just more consolidated due to player proactivity.

Thoughts? (again, I’m open to the idea that such claims aren’t as frequent as I currently think they are).

~EW

it drove me and my guild away. Even those that did end up buying it, did not play it for long.

Biggest issues:

1. I loved GW2 dungeons. I loved working towards their collections casually in groups of 5. Old dungeons got severely nerfed and no new ones were given. Already my favorite pass time destroyed.
2. I climbed the ladder of fractals. Slowly. Now in order to continue the fractal ladder I didn’t just need to meet the infusion requirement and find a group, I had to grind out a mastery. That did not make me want to play any more.
3. As a guild we liked to Spvp. But with the expansion old builds got destroyed. It’s not that bad if you just have to rebuild. It’s bad if you’re pressed into a very specific role to be useful. What if I don’t want an elite spec because it makes me go from a DPS to a healer? And for that matter why did we even need any part of traditional trinity in the game? It used to be – everyone does a little of everything. Now its dedicated healers and dedicated DPS.
4. The grindyness of guild halls that kind of killed small to medium guilds, not to mention them collecting some perks that we had unlocked off to hide them behind a scribe.

Sometimes I rewatch old dungeons runs and our Spvp matches. Sometimes I dream about the old times and old people that I knew. But I’m not going to come back, because what the game is has completely changed. And ultimately that’s fine having in mind that I’m just one in millions of people that were playing this. I just wish that someone hosted a pre HoT changes server of GW2.

Too true Myrta! Almost same instance verbatim over here in a US guild. Even though we are in a large guild and two of us were Master Scribes before the April update, and our GH is long since finished, that grind as well took its toll on the members. Back before HoT, it was fun to hang out in TS as a guild and run together and knock out Fractals, Dungeons and PvP. Honestly, I can’t see HoT having successfully passed any dedicated beta testing, if indeed any was attempted, which I don’t think that was the case.

slashlizardy.9167:

Yea i tried it and the maps are still dead

Then you didn’t try it. Unless you ignored LFG, and just went onto a map looked around and logged off, I call BS. I’m in HoT maps at least 4-5 times a week and different hours. It’s never dead.

Sorry, but yep they were dead.