Guild Wars 2

If the nerf zerker they way it would be done is. 1) creating more encounter and mob that you are unable to crit on. This would also affect condi build that are reliant on crit procs.

2) Creating more content that you cant burst down and/or that has phases. requiring you to have a larger health pool heal or an abundance of regen or toughness, whether it be an environmental effect or an attack.

Even if the above changes where made I don’t see them implemented on a wide scale and would most likely limited to world boss events or the last event in a mega chain.

With the new trait there has been a lose of some extra % damage increase, but I don’t see it allow another stat combo to be more dominant.

I think zerker will still be the go to stat.

Nobody likes uncrittable enemies. It’s annoying for so many reasons.

The answer (I think I might have said it in this thread) is to simply put much more pressure on the active defenses.

Full offense is the preferred party comp (I hate the misuse of the word ‘meta’ still) primarily because it’s possible to entirely or near-entirely negate incoming damage via CC, speed-of-kill, and active defenses.

CC they’re dealing with, speed is really tricky to balance properly, and active defenses we’re seeing variations on now (many mordrem have sustained attacks).

The pieces are being put into place for HOT, and in a way that will make the “hardcore” happy because zerk survival becomes more of the skill check it’s meant to be.

Attrition fights are annoying as well. I’m all for pushing for more active defense, like solo lupi or even Amber Troll. Needing more than the bare minimum is good, needing most of what you have available I find even more fun.

Jerus.4350:

Attrition fights are annoying as well. I’m all for pushing for more active defense, like solo lupi or even Amber Troll. Needing more than the bare minimum is good, needing most of what you have available I find even more fun.

See yeah. It should be about keeping the players offbalance and restricting ‘perfect’ play… attrition is annoying. We all like fast encounters, I think even though they cause balance issues ><

Mordrem trolls, tetragryph roots, thresher roots, these are all things that really push players to react and deal with them.

NikeEU.7690:

Sagat.3285:

Wut?? No to that and no the rest, this is strictly PvE issue don’t affect PvP and WvW when you simply need tough non HP sponges mobs, the issue with faster condition application is that condition can be created easier than burst either through fields,sigils or runes(more of them), etc.

In PvE if your condi build can’t sustain 20+ bleed stacks solo it’s a failure. The problem with that is it takes time to get to 20+. By then the boss is dead, or close to it. So even with high toughness bosses condition ramp up time is a big problem.

It’s fine to have a motor that is slow to accelerate so long as their is a high top end. the problem is the top end of condi builds are low too. So its slow and weak. Tough enemies wont change that.

Nike, I think you’re missing your own logic there. If two enemies have the same physical effective health (Armour*Health) and a condition build has the same DPS as a physical build against a “standard” target, if their armour stats are different the higher armour enemy will die faster to the condition damage build. As such, not only would high toughness enemies have higher effective health and make fights last longer, their high toughness would make the top end of condition damage builds deal more effective damage.

If every enemy had infinite toughness, our only possible source of damage would be conditions. Likewise, if every enemy had effectively 0 toughness everything would die from a single blow. If the perfect balance is met and every enemy has exactly the right amount of toughness to put condis on par with Zerker gear, we have meaningless diversity where your choice doesn’t matter.

To truly break from the “Zerker” meta, we need a wider variety of goals. Even if it just starts with one other goal, building tanky to hold off a group of enemies, being conditiony to take down husks or dedicating yourself to healing an NPC. If one player putting all of their stats into breaking break bars turns out to be the fastest way to do things in HoT, that’s the meta we’ll have.

I actually enjoy longer fights >.<, Lupi Solo/Duo for instance is far more fun than in a group because you get to experience all the mechanics multiple times rather than maybe once.

I enjoy actively defending more than just bursting.

Trolls are fun, they keep you on your toes but you still have to actively defend yourself, and I like the charging teragriffs with the whole movement counter (don’t like the other kind), and the lifeleach thrashers are fun, but the other kind isn’t with their constant movement and stale attack pattern.

Ideas that can indirectly solve the Zerk problems in PVE without affecting anything else:

1. Add more Bark Skin type of enemies who’re only vulnerable to conditions.
2. Add enemies that have damage reflection for certain %, so going full zerk will actually hurt yourself more, and higher vit and healing will be more optimal.
3. Add stages that’d dish out damage to the whole map periodically. The damage can be reduced by armors, making toughness very important.
4. Add foes that’d apply weakness to all players in the radius, so zerk classes are greatly punished, and condition spec is more viable.

Aomine.5012:

Ideas that can indirectly solve the Zerk problems in PVE without affecting anything else:

1. Add more Bark Skin type of enemies who’re only vulnerable to conditions.
2. Add enemies that have damage reflection for certain %, so going full zerk will actually hurt yourself more, and higher vit and healing will be more optimal.
3. Add stages that’d dish out damage to the whole map periodically. The damage can be reduced by armors, making toughness very important.
4. Add foes that’d apply weakness to all players in the radius, so zerk classes are greatly punished, and condition spec is more viable.

Did you misspeak, because those seem pretty directly focused at hurting zerk.

Can’t say I’d be interested in playing content like that.

Jerus.4350:

I actually enjoy longer fights >.<, Lupi Solo/Duo for instance is far more fun than in a group because you get to experience all the mechanics multiple times rather than maybe once.

I enjoy actively defending more than just bursting.

Trolls are fun, they keep you on your toes but you still have to actively defend yourself, and I like the charging teragriffs with the whole movement counter (don’t like the other kind), and the lifeleach thrashers are fun, but the other kind isn’t with their constant movement and stale attack pattern.

I like the roots teragryphs, especially since you don’t know if you’re getting charge or shout or roots, means players have to react on the fly and adjust their tactics.

The root guys should probably have a bit more cooldown on their root attack, especially if we’re talking champ level.

Jerus.4350:

Did you misspeak, because those seem pretty directly focused at hurting zerk.

Can’t say I’d be interested in playing content like that.

WvW and PvP would be unchanged.
Also with stuff like this you still can play zerker but maybe not with a full team of them.

HotHit.6783:

NikeEU.7690:

Sagat.3285:

Wut?? No to that and no the rest, this is strictly PvE issue don’t affect PvP and WvW when you simply need tough non HP sponges mobs, the issue with faster condition application is that condition can be created easier than burst either through fields,sigils or runes(more of them), etc.

In PvE if your condi build can’t sustain 20+ bleed stacks solo it’s a failure. The problem with that is it takes time to get to 20+. By then the boss is dead, or close to it. So even with high toughness bosses condition ramp up time is a big problem.

It’s fine to have a motor that is slow to accelerate so long as their is a high top end. the problem is the top end of condi builds are low too. So its slow and weak. Tough enemies wont change that.

Nike, I think you’re missing your own logic there. If two enemies have the same physical effective health (Armour*Health) and a condition build has the same DPS as a physical build against a “standard” target, if their armour stats are different the higher armour enemy will die faster to the condition damage build. As such, not only would high toughness enemies have higher effective health and make fights last longer, their high toughness would make the top end of condition damage builds deal more effective damage.

If every enemy had infinite toughness, our only possible source of damage would be conditions. Likewise, if every enemy had effectively 0 toughness everything would die from a single blow. If the perfect balance is met and every enemy has exactly the right amount of toughness to put condis on par with Zerker gear, we have meaningless diversity where your choice doesn’t matter.

To truly break from the “Zerker” meta, we need a wider variety of goals. Even if it just starts with one other goal, building tanky to hold off a group of enemies, being conditiony to take down husks or dedicating yourself to healing an NPC. If one player putting all of their stats into breaking break bars turns out to be the fastest way to do things in HoT, that’s the meta we’ll have.

I’m not missing anything, believe me, I’ve thought this through significantly more than almost anyone else.

the best condi builds takes 10-15 seconds to ramp up to their max personal DPS. That means for the first 10-15 seconds a direct damage build is doing ridiculously higher damage even against Tough mobs. But guess what? Once the condi build hits 15 seconds and is fully ramped up it still does less DPS than the direct damage builds, even against Tough enemies, especially since Sinister stats are hurt by high Toughness too. The big problem is that Vulnerability doesn’t affect condition damage. If it did, condition damage would ramp up to actually higher DPS than direct damage which is whats needed.

alternatively, I suggested massively increasing boss HP rather than Toughness. This has a few advantages. In a 30 second boss fight, the 15 second condi ramp up time is a massive disadvantage. In a 5 minute boss fight the 15 second ramp up time is negligible, which solves that problem. A high toughness boss is fun for condi builds but not fun for direct damage builds. It probably isn’t good boss design to have a boss be purposefully unfun. A high HP boss is fun for everyone. The only danger is you make giant HP sponges that you afk attack for 5 minutes until dead. Ideally the bosses are cool, have interesting mechanics and a 5 minute fight is exciting and rewarding. If the bosses are designed horribly so that fighting them for 5 minutes is completely awful… well that is a problem that goes far beyond balancing for condition builds.

NikeEU.7690:

I’m not missing anything, believe me, I’ve thought this through significantly more than almost anyone else.

the best condi builds takes 10-15 seconds to ramp up to their max personal DPS. That means for the first 10-15 seconds a direct damage build is doing ridiculously higher damage even against Tough mobs. But guess what? Once the condi build hits 15 seconds and is fully ramped up it still does less DPS than the direct damage builds, even against Tough enemies, especially since Sinister stats are hurt by high Toughness too. The big problem is that Vulnerability doesn’t affect condition damage. If it did, condition damage would ramp up to actually higher DPS than direct damage which is whats needed.

alternatively, I suggested massively increasing boss HP rather than Toughness. This has a few advantages. In a 30 second boss fight, the 15 second condi ramp up time is a massive disadvantage. In a 5 minute boss fight the 15 second ramp up time is negligible, which solves that problem. A high toughness boss is fun for condi builds but not fun for direct damage builds. It probably isn’t good boss design to have a boss be purposefully unfun. A high HP boss is fun for everyone. The only danger is you make giant HP sponges that you afk attack for 5 minutes until dead. Ideally the bosses are cool, have interesting mechanics and a 5 minute fight is exciting and rewarding. If the bosses are designed horribly so that fighting them for 5 minutes is completely awful… well that is a problem that goes far beyond balancing for condition builds.

+1.

You don’t have to eliminate active defense to discourage the zerker meta. You just have to eliminate the ability to negate everything with it. Give mobs small, quick hits combined with larger, more telegraphed ones, and suddenly it becomes a choice of what you can avoid and when to avoid it, rather than just waiting every 3 seconds or so for the next big attack to dodge or block with aegis. Combine this with smarter mobs that make use of mobility and CC, and you have more room for build diversity that encourages (at the very least) more sustain alongside your damage.

Black Box.9312:

You don’t have to eliminate active defense to discourage the zerker meta. You just have to eliminate the ability to negate everything with it. Give mobs small, quick hits combined with larger, more telegraphed ones, and suddenly it becomes a choice of what you can avoid and when to avoid it, rather than just waiting every 3 seconds or so for the next big attack to dodge or block with aegis. Combine this with smarter mobs that make use of mobility and CC, and you have more room for build diversity that encourages (at the very least) more sustain alongside your damage.

How does having unavoidable damage promote skilled gameplay when the solution you want to it is more passive defense? The “quick fast attacks” thing has been repeated for so long by so many that no one has bothered to think about the implications. Wearing tanky gear to solve your defensive problems in a combat system like this is a solution that requires no play skill and thus encourages no play skill improvement. The solution to this is not to dumb the game down with unavoidable damage and passive stats, but to actually make it harder by require use of more of our active tool kit.

The real solution is, as I said, stressing the active tool kit: dodges, blocks, reflects, coordinated blasts of water fields, positioning, key interrupts etc. Most encounters right now only make you do one or two of those things at most to succeed. New encounters that put all of your resources to the test are the solution.

NikeEU.7690:

The real solution is, as I said, stressing the active tool kit: dodges, blocks, reflects, coordinated blasts of water fields, positioning, key interrupts etc. Most encounters right now only make you do one or two of those things at most to succeed. New encounters that put all of your resources to the test are the solution.

To achieve that one you do need attacks that can’t be or shouldn’t be avoided otherwise you can use damage migitaion instead. I also think that that one will make vitality/toughness an option to make the other one less neccessairy.

Tim.6450:

NikeEU.7690:

The real solution is, as I said, stressing the active tool kit: dodges, blocks, reflects, coordinated blasts of water fields, positioning, key interrupts etc. Most encounters right now only make you do one or two of those things at most to succeed. New encounters that put all of your resources to the test are the solution.

To achieve that one you do need attacks that can’t be or shouldn’t be avoided otherwise you can use damage migitaion instead. I also think that that one will make vitality/toughness an option to make the other one less neccessairy.

Solid pressure of even avoidable things will leave you wanting to coordinate heals for the missteps in actively defending yourself.

I look at the Troll at Amber to be a very well designed encounter (if you don’t safespot him, filthy exploiters ) I need to have dodges ready for his quick rotating shout. Then for his circle attack I need to dodge and block through the persistent damage. Then he has an auto attack as well I need to dodge if it’s on me. Between those things my active defenses are stressed. But, the encounter isn’t over. While I can avoid the additional enemies he summons, and sometimes I do, they do take chunks out of me while I’m busy dealing with the main guy. That’s where my heals come in. For the stuff that went above what I was ready to actively deal with.

So you don’t need unavoidable stuff, you just need a lot of stuff to really push you if you want to play all out.

NikeEU.7690:

Black Box.9312:

You don’t have to eliminate active defense to discourage the zerker meta. You just have to eliminate the ability to negate everything with it. Give mobs small, quick hits combined with larger, more telegraphed ones, and suddenly it becomes a choice of what you can avoid and when to avoid it, rather than just waiting every 3 seconds or so for the next big attack to dodge or block with aegis. Combine this with smarter mobs that make use of mobility and CC, and you have more room for build diversity that encourages (at the very least) more sustain alongside your damage.

How does having unavoidable damage promote skilled gameplay when the solution you want to it is more passive defense? The “quick fast attacks” thing has been repeated for so long by so many that no one has bothered to think about the implications. Wearing tanky gear to solve your defensive problems in a combat system like this is a solution that requires no play skill and thus encourages no play skill improvement. The solution to this is not to dumb the game down with unavoidable damage and passive stats, but to actually make it harder by require use of more of our active tool kit.

The real solution is, as I said, stressing the active tool kit: dodges, blocks, reflects, coordinated blasts of water fields, positioning, key interrupts etc. Most encounters right now only make you do one or two of those things at most to succeed. New encounters that put all of your resources to the test are the solution.

Because “skilled gameplay” is just as much about reaction time and critical thinking as it is about execution. A skilled player will still be able to excel in high damage, low defense gear because they will be able to act quickly and be able to make on-the-spot decisions about what needs to be avoided as opposed to what they can afford to take a hit from. It’s not dumbing the game down; I’d actually argue the opposite. Active defense would still be very much a thing. It just wouldn’t be the only thing. Would zerker builds still be the most efficient? Probably, but it would be a hell of a lot less polarizing than what we have right now.

The other half of the equation needed for this to work is more intelligent mob AI. We need more enemies that are capable of avoiding damage if not properly locked down. Is it annoying when an enemy dodges your burst? Yes, but it’s also a learning experience in that you know next time to make use of CC before you unload your damage. Things like hammer warriors and chill necros (zomg, necros with party support) will actually be desirable in high end PvE content even though they might not provide optimal DPS.

Jerus.4350:

Tim.6450:

To achieve that one you do need attacks that can’t be or shouldn’t be avoided otherwise you can use damage migitaion instead. I also think that that one will make vitality/toughness an option to make the other one less neccessairy.

Solid pressure of even avoidable things will leave you wanting to coordinate heals for the missteps in actively defending yourself.

I look at the Troll at Amber to be a very well designed encounter (if you don’t safespot him, filthy exploiters ) I need to have dodges ready for his quick rotating shout. Then for his circle attack I need to dodge and block through the persistent damage. Then he has an auto attack as well I need to dodge if it’s on me. Between those things my active defenses are stressed. But, the encounter isn’t over. While I can avoid the additional enemies he summons, and sometimes I do, they do take chunks out of me while I’m busy dealing with the main guy. That’s where my heals come in. For the stuff that went above what I was ready to actively deal with.

So you don’t need unavoidable stuff, you just need a lot of stuff to really push you if you want to play all out.

So you have attacks that shouldn’t be avoided because you wouldn’t have any defenses left for the attacks that matter?

Tim.6450:

Jerus.4350:

Tim.6450:

To achieve that one you do need attacks that can’t be or shouldn’t be avoided otherwise you can use damage migitaion instead. I also think that that one will make vitality/toughness an option to make the other one less neccessairy.

Solid pressure of even avoidable things will leave you wanting to coordinate heals for the missteps in actively defending yourself.

I look at the Troll at Amber to be a very well designed encounter (if you don’t safespot him, filthy exploiters ) I need to have dodges ready for his quick rotating shout. Then for his circle attack I need to dodge and block through the persistent damage. Then he has an auto attack as well I need to dodge if it’s on me. Between those things my active defenses are stressed. But, the encounter isn’t over. While I can avoid the additional enemies he summons, and sometimes I do, they do take chunks out of me while I’m busy dealing with the main guy. That’s where my heals come in. For the stuff that went above what I was ready to actively deal with.

So you don’t need unavoidable stuff, you just need a lot of stuff to really push you if you want to play all out.

So you have attacks that shouldn’t be avoided because you wouldn’t have any defenses left?

Kinda, thing is team composition and profession choices could potentially allow you to avoid everything, it’s just unlikely and not needed if you have proper ways to recover from the attacks that slip through.

By that I mean if I had a guardian or two in my group for Troll the Aegis rotations could allow me to go through unscathed if I defended myself properly with everything else I have. Though, when I’m on my Necro I have only dodges with energy sigil, and such I can avoid far less, but with DS and heals I actually find it easier because as long as I avoid the bigger attacks I can brush off the smaller ones pretty easily.

So, yes, that’s one approach letting some attacks through, but because of the diversity of options for different things it wouldn’t necessarily be the only approach. (Guard team = avoid everything, Necro team = mitigate all but the largest of attacks)

Edit: ok I feel silly, typed that all out, and then got your point, apparently it went over my head in your original post, but yes, you’re right. Though, again, with proper setup the “should be” might not even hold true.

Please don’t nerf anything, it makes the game less fun. Imagine all the hard effort you put into that piece of gear gone down the drain.

Tim.6450:

NikeEU.7690:

The real solution is, as I said, stressing the active tool kit: dodges, blocks, reflects, coordinated blasts of water fields, positioning, key interrupts etc. Most encounters right now only make you do one or two of those things at most to succeed. New encounters that put all of your resources to the test are the solution.

To achieve that one you do need attacks that can’t be or shouldn’t be avoided otherwise you can use damage migitaion instead. I also think that that one will make vitality/toughness an option to make the other one less neccessairy.

Everything should be avoidable or preventable with the right dodges, right utility skills, right positioning, and right interrupts. Coordinated team healing can fill in the inevitable gaps created by mistakes. And again, the key is “coordinated team heals” not “one support character using his healing skills on cool down.” It’s the DPS staff ele switching to water attunement, dropping a water field and using arcane wave while the thief swaps to short bow to cluster bomb it and the other ele drops a Dragons tooth on the boss who happens to be in the field due to good placement and does damage and heals at the same time.

To add, Tim I think you’re spot on.

I wanted to elaborate on it a little. If you ever watch Boxing (no not that mayweather crap), you’ll notice that the jabs often get through without even an attempt to dodge. Why? Because they really aren’t hurting anything, and dodging takes energy which you don’t want to waste. So take the jab, take the jab, take the jab, avoid the cross, take the jab, counter the hook, take the jab, blah blah, you get it. But, then it even gets more advanced in how you take the jab, move an inch to the left and it glances across your skin rather than getting you with full force, mitigating the blow. There’s a reason it’s called the sweet science.

The problem is getting the details right. Having those jabs take off 25% of your health, well, suddenly they’re not really jabs, they’re on the level that you want to avoid them if at all possible. So it’d take some math to figure out how hard they want them to be based on mitigation available, heals available and the amount of damage over time that the jabs will do. Make it so much pressure that I’m just gonna back out to range and take the potential damage loss because in the end having to heal and do all that stuff is pushing me below ranging would be bad, it’s complicated, takes some figuring out.

Things like hammer warriors and chill necros (zomg, necros with party support) will actually be desirable in high end PvE content

or the warrior knocks down with mace 5 or uses throw bolas and then carries on hammering away.

I wish people who don’t actually play at the high end would stop trying to give feedback on what they think the high end should be when they don’t even understand it.

maha.7902:

Things like hammer warriors and chill necros (zomg, necros with party support) will actually be desirable in high end PvE content

or the warrior knocks down with mace 5 or uses throw bolas and then carries on hammering away.

I wish people who don’t actually play at the high end would stop trying to give feedback on what they think the high end should be when they don’t even understand it.

It’s been quite a while, but I used to do a lot of “high-end” PvE. Didn’t go for any sort of record runs, but I did dungeon tours with full zerker meta groups. It was boring as kitten, which is why I stopped in favor of the occasional PvP match.

So please, go somewhere else with your BM.

Jerus.4350:

To add, Tim I think you’re spot on.

I wanted to elaborate on it a little. If you ever watch Boxing (no not that mayweather crap), you’ll notice that the jabs often get through without even an attempt to dodge. Why? Because they really aren’t hurting anything, and dodging takes energy which you don’t want to waste. So take the jab, take the jab, take the jab, avoid the cross, take the jab, counter the hook, take the jab, blah blah, you get it. But, then it even gets more advanced in how you take the jab, move an inch to the left and it glances across your skin rather than getting you with full force, mitigating the blow. There’s a reason it’s called the sweet science.

The problem is getting the details right. Having those jabs take off 25% of your health, well, suddenly they’re not really jabs, they’re on the level that you want to avoid them if at all possible. So it’d take some math to figure out how hard they want them to be based on mitigation available, heals available and the amount of damage over time that the jabs will do. Make it so much pressure that I’m just gonna back out to range and take the potential damage loss because in the end having to heal and do all that stuff is pushing me below ranging would be bad, it’s complicated, takes some figuring out.

Using your boxing metaphor. It would be interesting if the jabs applied vuln, the cross stunned or immobilized (pulsing immob), and the hook packed a big (unblockable, directional) punch.

Then a mob that combos with jab, jab, jab, cross, hook would be incredibly punishing and provides opportunity for both active defense (dodging or blocking the cross and running around the hook, cleansing the vuln) and passive defense (soaking or body-blocking the directional damage for a downed or rooted ally). Essentially, you could have multiple was of dealing with the mob and rewards a variety of stat combinations.

It takes some tweaking, but there can be ways of creating encounters that are dynamic and have multiple solutions for completion.

Aye it certainly could be interesting, but it’d be tough, as again, make the “jab” too punishing and i’m just gonna equip a range weapon step back and fight from afar, nullifying all the work done trying to make an interesting melee fight.

The whole range thing really screws it up. But, then do you put a second set of heavy attacks to punish range? I think that was the goal of things like the SQ poison attack or Lupi’s auto in p2/3 and now the Lifeleach Thrashers, but as we’ve seen 2 out of 3 of those things have been changed to just be constants whether melee or range…

Jerus.4350:

Aomine.5012:

Ideas that can indirectly solve the Zerk problems in PVE without affecting anything else:

1. Add more Bark Skin type of enemies who’re only vulnerable to conditions.
2. Add enemies that have damage reflection for certain %, so going full zerk will actually hurt yourself more, and higher vit and healing will be more optimal.
3. Add stages that’d dish out damage to the whole map periodically. The damage can be reduced by armors, making toughness very important.
4. Add foes that’d apply weakness to all players in the radius, so zerk classes are greatly punished, and condition spec is more viable.

Did you misspeak, because those seem pretty directly focused at hurting zerk.

Can’t say I’d be interested in playing content like that.

If they add “exclusive rewards”, like the HoT new armor sets and weapon sets, then you’d have to do them to get the goodies. You’d have to adjust your build for the content, which is the right direction of a more in-depth game contents.

Jerus.4350:

The problem is getting the details right. Having those jabs take off 25% of your health, well, suddenly they’re not really jabs, they’re on the level that you want to avoid them if at all possible. So it’d take some math to figure out how hard they want them to be based on mitigation available, heals available and the amount of damage over time that the jabs will do. Make it so much pressure that I’m just gonna back out to range and take the potential damage loss because in the end having to heal and do all that stuff is pushing me below ranging would be bad, it’s complicated, takes some figuring out.

This is where gear can become an interesting question again though.

If say taking a 2+1 stat set makes it so that you can take a few more jabs while staying in your preferred damage range, it makes it a viable choice vs an all-offense stat set.

The balance on this is very tight, as you say, but the model really solves a very large number of problems.

Aomine.5012:

Jerus.4350:

Aomine.5012:

Ideas that can indirectly solve the Zerk problems in PVE without affecting anything else:

1. Add more Bark Skin type of enemies who’re only vulnerable to conditions.
2. Add enemies that have damage reflection for certain %, so going full zerk will actually hurt yourself more, and higher vit and healing will be more optimal.
3. Add stages that’d dish out damage to the whole map periodically. The damage can be reduced by armors, making toughness very important.
4. Add foes that’d apply weakness to all players in the radius, so zerk classes are greatly punished, and condition spec is more viable.

Did you misspeak, because those seem pretty directly focused at hurting zerk.

Can’t say I’d be interested in playing content like that.

If they add “exclusive rewards”, like the HoT new armor sets and weapon sets, then you’d have to do them to get the goodies. You’d have to adjust your build for the content, which is the right direction of a more in-depth game contents.

You’re making many assumptions, I’ll just leave it at that.

Windsagio.1340:

Jerus.4350:

The problem is getting the details right. Having those jabs take off 25% of your health, well, suddenly they’re not really jabs, they’re on the level that you want to avoid them if at all possible. So it’d take some math to figure out how hard they want them to be based on mitigation available, heals available and the amount of damage over time that the jabs will do. Make it so much pressure that I’m just gonna back out to range and take the potential damage loss because in the end having to heal and do all that stuff is pushing me below ranging would be bad, it’s complicated, takes some figuring out.

This is where gear can become an interesting question again though.

If say taking a 2+1 stat set makes it so that you can take a few more jabs while staying in your preferred damage range, it makes it a viable choice vs an all-offense stat set.

The balance on this is very tight, as you say, but the model really solves a very large number of problems.

2+1 stat set, or ranged combat? which is better?

Jerus.4350:

Windsagio.1340:

Jerus.4350:

The problem is getting the details right. Having those jabs take off 25% of your health, well, suddenly they’re not really jabs, they’re on the level that you want to avoid them if at all possible. So it’d take some math to figure out how hard they want them to be based on mitigation available, heals available and the amount of damage over time that the jabs will do. Make it so much pressure that I’m just gonna back out to range and take the potential damage loss because in the end having to heal and do all that stuff is pushing me below ranging would be bad, it’s complicated, takes some figuring out.

This is where gear can become an interesting question again though.

If say taking a 2+1 stat set makes it so that you can take a few more jabs while staying in your preferred damage range, it makes it a viable choice vs an all-offense stat set.

The balance on this is very tight, as you say, but the model really solves a very large number of problems.

2+1 stat set, or ranged combat? which is better?

Depends on the encounter, class and build, yes? That’s where the potential for more varied party comps/strategies comes in.

Ranged might be better for a ranger (no pun intended) but a PS warrior would probably want 2+1 to get the benefit of forceful greatsword for the party.

This does have the effect of “forcing” true optimizers to carry multiple gear sets, but a lot of people won’t (need to) bother.

NikeEU.7690:

Everything should be avoidable or preventable with the right dodges, right utility skills, right positioning, and right interrupts. Coordinated team healing can fill in the inevitable gaps created by mistakes.

I disagree on that one, taking unavoidable damage is a way to apply pressure on the player. A simple example is in ratchet & clank “sleeping gas challenges” in annihalation nation, it was challenge where you lost health at a slow but steady rate. The result was a timed challenge which punishes you for taking hits. So either you played it safe to avoid hitting and take no hits or you take risk for a higher dps, ending the challenge faster. Both were valid strategies. I think something similar can be done in gw2.

And again, the key is “coordinated team heals” not “one support character using his healing skills on cool down.”

I don’t mind if a team regulates the healing to one character, the “healer” still have to use it skillfully.

Windsagio.1340:

Jerus.4350:

Windsagio.1340:

Jerus.4350:

The problem is getting the details right. Having those jabs take off 25% of your health, well, suddenly they’re not really jabs, they’re on the level that you want to avoid them if at all possible. So it’d take some math to figure out how hard they want them to be based on mitigation available, heals available and the amount of damage over time that the jabs will do. Make it so much pressure that I’m just gonna back out to range and take the potential damage loss because in the end having to heal and do all that stuff is pushing me below ranging would be bad, it’s complicated, takes some figuring out.

This is where gear can become an interesting question again though.

If say taking a 2+1 stat set makes it so that you can take a few more jabs while staying in your preferred damage range, it makes it a viable choice vs an all-offense stat set.

The balance on this is very tight, as you say, but the model really solves a very large number of problems.

2+1 stat set, or ranged combat? which is better?

Depends on the encounter, class and build, yes? That’s where the potential for more varied party comps/strategies comes in.

Ranged might be better for a ranger (no pun intended) but a PS warrior would probably want 2+1 to get the benefit of forceful greatsword for the party.

This does have the effect of “forcing” true optimizers to carry multiple gear sets, but a lot of people won’t (need to) bother.

Absolutely.

I know know some of the more attrition type fights right now are just… well, not what I picture when I talk about this jab type thing. The first boss in CoF1 for example, once he starts throwing that whip out, I either have to back out, or spend the entire time blocking/dodging. If I put on Valkyrie or Knights gear, I wouldn’t be able to just stand toe to toe with him suddenly, no it’d just take me longer and I’d actually lose efficiency in the “kill him before he kills me” race, so yeah, fine line of balance to make this whole idea actually work.

Jerus.4350:

Windsagio.1340:

Jerus.4350:

Windsagio.1340:

Jerus.4350:

The problem is getting the details right. Having those jabs take off 25% of your health, well, suddenly they’re not really jabs, they’re on the level that you want to avoid them if at all possible. So it’d take some math to figure out how hard they want them to be based on mitigation available, heals available and the amount of damage over time that the jabs will do. Make it so much pressure that I’m just gonna back out to range and take the potential damage loss because in the end having to heal and do all that stuff is pushing me below ranging would be bad, it’s complicated, takes some figuring out.

This is where gear can become an interesting question again though.

If say taking a 2+1 stat set makes it so that you can take a few more jabs while staying in your preferred damage range, it makes it a viable choice vs an all-offense stat set.

The balance on this is very tight, as you say, but the model really solves a very large number of problems.

2+1 stat set, or ranged combat? which is better?

Depends on the encounter, class and build, yes? That’s where the potential for more varied party comps/strategies comes in.

Ranged might be better for a ranger (no pun intended) but a PS warrior would probably want 2+1 to get the benefit of forceful greatsword for the party.

This does have the effect of “forcing” true optimizers to carry multiple gear sets, but a lot of people won’t (need to) bother.

Absolutely.

I know know some of the more attrition type fights right now are just… well, not what I picture when I talk about this jab type thing. The first boss in CoF1 for example, once he starts throwing that whip out, I either have to back out, or spend the entire time blocking/dodging. If I put on Valkyrie or Knights gear, I wouldn’t be able to just stand toe to toe with him suddenly, no it’d just take me longer and I’d actually lose efficiency in the “kill him before he kills me” race, so yeah, fine line of balance to make this whole idea actually work.

A lot of my issue with Dungeons as they currently stand stems from exactly this: difficulty is based entirely on huge hits that require you to disengage or constantly dodge/block attacks. What I was getting to with my example was the idea that if there are a variety of types of attacks so you could optimize which you had to mitigate, which you could take, and which you might take for your friends, it would make them more engaging and fun while encouraging some build diversity.

Belzebu.3912:

Amineo.8951:

Zerk is kinda useless against world bosses right?

Kinda.
Most world bosses can’t be crit, so the precision and ferocity isn’t used, but still have the highest DPS possible.

This is blatantly untrue. Soldier’s gear always offers better DPS no matter what build you play against crit-immune targets, especially if food is considered, so much so to the point where the soldier’s gear can garner an upwards of 20% more damage.

Berserker-stat gear is not the be-all-end-all DPS set. With the condition cap changes, I would largely expect sinister gear to replace it in dungeon runs because it will strictly offer better DPS values from some classes if the stacks are not competed for by players.

Quiznos.4296:

Jerus.4350:

Quiznos.4296:

As many have mentioned. Small nudges to move players into a more diversified gear set is more so the case.

The removal of trait line stats will give a nudge too, no vit, no tough, no heal, from traits means zerk will be even squishier.

Not really, most zerk builds didn’t get vit/tough from traits, and now we’ll be getting some of it added base.

Oh… Well I stand corrected. Even still, little changes/tweaks.

6,2,0,6 rangers use Valk+zerks+assasins and a full line for Vit + boon durations i say this because my current PvE/WvW ranger uses the trait line plus WvW bonuses to boost my hp from 19k base to 22-23k after the traiting.

builds that use Vit lines or any line at that will be more squishy your set ups will be defined by your build and base gear stats rather than the Stats you choose in the current trees .

you’ll find power damage boosting traits for certain weapons in a defensive tree line after HoT which means you’ll have better traited defences , less overall traited power traits being restricted to power stat lines , also means you’ll have to swap some gear to regain some of that lost Crit hits and Critical damage increases.

anet said that gear will regain a portion of the stats lost from the trait stats back into the base gear though this does mean you won’t get 100% of the lost stats back more like you’ll regain 75% of the lost stats just again nudging players to take some defensive measures rather than using things like Sos as a “im immortal type button” then 6secs later dying nearly instantly , its a fustrating play style and vastly boring , lacks depth and makes games short winded.

im looking forward to the new HoT meta no more dealing with these players that think only Power matters.

With the condition cap changes, I would largely expect sinister gear to replace it in dungeon runs because it will strictly offer better DPS values from some classes if the stacks are not competed for by players.

you literally have no idea what you’re talking about

DeceiverX.8361:

Belzebu.3912:

Amineo.8951:

Zerk is kinda useless against world bosses right?

Kinda.
Most world bosses can’t be crit, so the precision and ferocity isn’t used, but still have the highest DPS possible.

This is blatantly untrue. Soldier’s gear always offers better DPS no matter what build you play against crit-immune targets, especially if food is considered, so much so to the point where the soldier’s gear can garner an upwards of 20% more damage.

Berserker-stat gear is not the be-all-end-all DPS set. With the condition cap changes, I would largely expect sinister gear to replace it in dungeon runs because it will strictly offer better DPS values from some classes if the stacks are not competed for by players.

Umm, zerk and soldiers has the same power, so, no, it doesn’t offer better DPS.

And Sinister only helps condition damage for the loss of ferocity, meaning without solid quick applications of conditions zerk will still be superior.

The burst thing is important. You have to think about practical application. If we’re killing things in 10s do you have time to ramp up your condition damage? nope, still better to use power damage.

Sinister surely has potential for some professions, but there are still issues (vuln usage and ramp up time being two big ones).

I don’t know if they are nerfing Zerk. But they need to.

They have done it before and replaced it with nothing.
In a condition dominated pvp scene. lol @ balancing in pvp

Johje Holan.4607:

I don’t know if they are nerfing Zerk. But they need to.

What are you smoking ? some of us like seeing big dmg numbers and bosses dropping like flies in 15 sec and no that is not sarcasm.

The whole “problem” boils down to the following question. What exactly is the “zerk problem”? Is it a problem that you can play in berserker gear? Is it a problem that berserker gear exists? Is it a problem that everyone is not forced/coerced to playing in defensive gear? Really, what’s this “zerk problem” that so many people are so focused on solving? Why is it so important to force other players into playing in your preferred gear set? So important that you spend your time cooking up schemes to make it undesirable to play any way but your way. So important that you write up forum posts on ways to “hurt” or “punish” players for wearing berserker gear. So important that you worry about making sure there aren’t a certain number of players in a group wearing berserker gear. Do you spend that much time and effort trying to punish players that wear nomad gear? I’m sorry, but the sense of entitlement exuding from these posts is pretty sad.

I was discussing this with friends and we came up with some interesting ideas.

Starting with the least popular idea…

NOTE: The following are just examples of thought. By no means have the numbers been calculated to reflect appropriate values. If you see something that is too large replace it with something that you think is more reasonable for appropriate discussion below. Thank you in advance

Making monsters tougher
This idea is based on the concept of making monsters hit harder and have more health.
The problem with this was that it penalizes everyone and eventually it will do the opposite of what we want. The mentality will certainly change to “we need to kill this thing fast so it doesn’t kill us instead!”. which is not what we were aiming for.

Gear Set Modifiers
Gear sets were an interesting thought because it introduces a new level of choice for the players. These would identify the number of gear pieces you have on of the same type (like runes) and provide additional stat alterations accordingly. An example would be if you had all Knight’s gear on you gain “Knight’s Aura: Reduces incoming damage by 25% and Increases your Vitality and Toughness by 10%” or if you had all Berserker’s gear on you gain “Rage: You deal 50% more damage, gain +50% critical chance, but take 300% more damage when hit”. Having a minimum requirement of 3 armor pieces, and 3 trinkets to get the effects first tier effects (making the next tier 5 armor pieces + 5 trinkets, and the last tier all armor + trinkets + weapons matching) will make players make decisions on if they want to use a full set, part of a set and mix it with others, or part of 2 sets to get different bonuses. This way if a set is inherently strong there is now a real risk applied to the gear, but has a strong pay off (like the character Guts from Berserk). If a set is very weak like Nomad’s gear it could receive a stat modifier called “Ventari’s Power: Gain Power equal to 50% of your Toughness, Healing Power, and Vitality. Randomly gain a random Aura when struck (cooldown 15 seconds)” which would give the gear a bit more of a presence and viability in combat or parties.

Random Attack Patterns, ( + )Monster Attack Speed, ( – )Monster Damage
Part of the reason Zerk builds can survive is because monsters follow a very rigid attack pattern with few triggers to make them do other things. Making the attack patters more random and harder to read creates a true threat to a Zerk player because they rely on avoiding certain attacks to live. Players geared more towards sustain rather than damage will be able to compensate easier this will at least allow players to choose if it is worth going with a complete set of Zerk gear or if mixing in other gear types may help.

The Combo
Combining everything I mentioned above could work, but if you make the monsters too tough and don’t compensate enough with the gear sets then it’s just like it was before. Players will try to find the fastest way to get rid of the threat and we’ll still be on the dps tracks. Balancing the gear with special stat modifiers is a great way to add a new dynamic to the game and randomizing the attack patterns so we can have a new experience each time would be fantastic. It’s a delicate art, but I think with a little work and brainstorming this could be a great way to fix the Zerk meta.

These are just thoughts and by no means were meant to be taken 100% seriously. I was just trying to deliver the concept of what I have in mind.

Let me know what you guys think!

ODB.6891:

The whole “problem” boils down to the following question. What exactly is the “zerk problem”?

Not sure about others but for me it’s an issue of gameplay.

Now what I mean by this is stat interaction. On one side of the coin you have stats (Offensive) that enhance active gameplay & on the other (defensive) that’s mainly passive & is unable to enchance active gameplay.

But we have all these different stat combination on gear. Use anything but “Zerker” in PvE one your up to a certain skill level & your actual putting yourself at a disadvantage. There’s also the aspect that any reward without “Zerker” stats in PvE is automatically less rewarding or unwanted.

Now back to stats & their interactions. Taking Power, Precision, Ferocity & Condition damage have the effect of increasing damage output. Although passive in nature it actually enhances all your active skills that output this damage. Which in turn enhances your active gameplay. Out of all the defensive stats Healing Power has this effect through enhancing your Healing skills & the Regeneration Boon.

When you start to look at active defences you find there is little interaction for enhancing these skills through passive stats. We have;

From Skills

• Blocks
• Condition Removal
• Dodge
• Invulnerability
• Immunes (Physical, Condition, Critical)

Boons

• Aegis (Block next attack)
• Protection (reduce physical dmg)
• Vigor (Increased endurance regen / more dodges)
• Swiftness (Kiting)
• Retaliation (Punishment for attacking you)
• Resistance (Condi immune)
• Stability (CC immune)

Conditions

• Blind (foes next attack misses)
• Chill (Kiting & reduce foe skill uptime)
• Cripple (Kiting)
• Confusion (Punish foe for attacking)
• Fear (Kiting)
• Immobilize (Kiting)
• Slow (Increased defensive action window)
• Torment (Kiting)
• Weakness (reduce incoming dmg)

Controls

• All control effects.

Now we have the stats Boon & Condition Duration but these enhance both Offensive & Defensive active gameplay but are missing as a main gear stat. There is also no passive stat the enhances control effects.

Also defensive boons & conditions mainly don’t have any stacking, so no increasing the power of that boon and the ones that stack have just as much effect on enhancing offensive active play. So what you get is a “Zerker” has just as much defensive & supportive power through the Boon, Condition & Control systems as “Non Zerker”. The increased application & uptime of Boon, Condition & Control effects you can achieve by going more defensive or support does not match the power that can be gained through offensive builds.

Now this was just a look purely at the stat system and not encounter mechanics.
With regard to Zerker and encounters until their active defensive can be exceeded & foes get to active more then one ability before dying (slight exaggeration) Zerker will be the king of stats in PvE. Which is a problem for players that like more defensive & supportive play styles that aren’t as aggressive, not to mention the effect on rewards in PvE that give stats.

For the gear set modifiers. So why is it that the all berserkers set gets a penalty in addition to a bonus? Berserkers already get squished very quickly if they miss a dodge.

Tldr:

Remove gear diversity, punish good players, reward bad players and make success depend on random rolls instead of skill and strategy.

I’m gunna have to go with no on this one.

spoj.9672:

For the gear set modifiers. So why is it that the all berserkers set gets a penalty in addition to a bonus? Berserkers already get squished very quickly if they miss a dodge.

Presently Zerk players have their “oh ****” buttons. Missing a few dodges doesn’t kill them, but with these modifiers it could. This places a much higher strain on players who are trying to use this gear, but also provides them with a greater reward if they can master it. It’s just that now there is a real risk involved. Part of the point of Zerk nerfing in most common threads started is simply that players choose this method because it’s the “fastest”. Well, if you die far more often and have to keep respawning because you make mistakes – things will even out a bit more ^^;

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Tldr:

Remove gear diversity, punish good players, reward bad players and make success depend on random rolls instead of skill and strategy.

I’m gunna have to go with no on this one.

1) Never said remove gear diversity. In fact I was increasing available options for gearing up. See point #3 as well.

2) Never said “punish” – There is a thread mocking the difficulty level of HoT already. Therefore I’m providing the “challenge” that all these good players want – while giving them a greater reward IF they can master it.

3) Not rewarding bad players. I’m providing them more options to make something they like with the play style they want.

4) Success is not to depend on randomness. The randomness is to increase the difficulty for the Zerk players while simply making things more interesting for other players (not as much repetition). Please see point #2.

Some ideas regarding stats;

• Adjust some defensive / supportive boons & conditions to stack (can create problems when stack cap).
• Tie Boon & Condition Duration to Toughness & Vitality.

Or

• Boon Duration & Healing Power.
• Endurance Recovery & Viability.
• Condition Duration & Toughness.

(Note: I would find this interesting & could see it working but don’t really see in happening as it would change so much & require alot of work and really “Zerker” only effects PvE which could be improved through encounter design & A.I improvements)

With regard to encounters here’s some idea of mine from the break bar and the meta discussion.

Bezagron.7352:

It would be interesting what other mechanics are also attach to the break bar;

• Invulnerable
• Immune to physical dmg
• Immune to crits
• Immune to condition dmg
• Bar only effected by certain conditions or CCs but not all.
• Medium to large heal regen
• Contant condition application (poison, weakness, cripple, chill…)
• Contant damaging field (physical, condition…)
• Summoning waves of reinforcements
• Endurance draining field
• Unblockable attacks

The largest part about Zerker is the ability to survive through active defend. If encounters start to effect this minimum active defence other build option might open up.

It would also be interesting if some areas & encounters locked skills & weapons with only some area were you still could swap. This might mean you can’t optimise for individual encounters but need a kit or group composition which varies from standard zerker to complete the whole challenge.

Missing a few dodges does kill them. Have you actually played berserker in arah/fractals when not being carried by a guardian or knowledgeable player? A lot of strategy and skill use goes into surviving because if you dont put knowledge and effort in you faceplant instantly.

Players will always choose the fastest method 9/10. It gets them the most rewards for their time. You cant solve that. You can only make it more difficult for them to succeed.

But your method just unfairly punishes them and unfairly rewards other gear. The better solution is just to create more varied and challenging content.

PS. Before suggesting solutions try looking at it from the perspective of an average berserker player. You are far too biased towards other builds.