Guild Wars 2

Ascended gear is difficult enough to get that it should feature stat-swapping just like legendaries.

You can’t “master” gear. The Meta isn’t really zerker. This games trinity is DPS, Support, CC. And every class is expected to bring at least 2 of those to the table in my groups and I want one of them to be dps. Some classes like Guardians will bring DPS and support and depending on what weapons they’re running some CC. Warriors bring a lot of DPS and support. Thieves bring a lot of DPS and support. Eles bring a ton of DPS and CC. Necros bring DPS and if you dont have other classes doing vuln.. they can bring that. Mesmers bring tons of support and some DPS. etc,etc,etc

The reason nobody wears other sets is because they are not good. The stats either don’t work properly like healing power which is just weak and doesn’t scale at all. Or the mechanics simply don’t work correctly like condi. Condi stack limitations in PvE make it all but pointless. So the solution to balancing out the stat sets a bit more isn’t to break the optimal solution but to make the other solutions actually useful.

spoj.9672:

And both of those choices are bad. :P

The complaint that it “does it all” is completely unjustified. Anet intended for players to be able to do everything regardless of how they built their characters.

The real reason for the complaint is that people dont like the idea of a single optimum and because they cant turn a blind eye to it because of LFG descriptions. But news flash there is always a single optimum in any game. And thats something you are just going to have to accept and ignore if you dont like it.

Saying you have to accept the meta sounds more like pessimism than realism. I’m always curious what certain players think the devs should balance active/passive defense, skills, and traits around if the meta is immutable. Should Anet be balancing the game for the meta or to counteract/shift it? They know it exists and they understand why it exists. To me, asking to maintain the status quo (such as it is) shows a real lack of imagination and a lack of desire for variety and change. In practice, asking to keep the meta in its current state leads certain players to cringe when non-meta support skills, weapons, and traits are created. The conversation then becomes “why not make them meta?” instead of “why not make them desirable?” which are two very different questions. That is inherently problematic for the devs and players and I don’t really know how to fix that outside of some sort of paradigm shift.

What does the evolution of Guild Wars 2 look like under an immutable meta?

No… That’s the fun for players who like to DPS. Believe it or not, all those players in other MMOs who run tanks, healers and CC masters…? Some of them actually enjoy THAT and GW2 basically takes a big dump on those customers at every turn.

yes, it takes a big dump on them by allowing them to do all of those things and yet do damage at the same time

how

dare

they

spoj.9672:

And both of those choices are bad. :P

The complaint that it “does it all” is completely unjustified. Anet intended for players to be able to do everything regardless of how they built their characters.

The real reason for the complaint is that people dont like the idea of a single optimum and because they cant turn a blind eye to it because of LFG descriptions. But news flash there is always a single optimum in any game. And thats something you are just going to have to accept and ignore if you dont like it.

Obviously there will always be some sort of meta, but the current problem we face with GW2 is that the efficiency gap between zerker builds and less damage-oriented builds is enormous. It’s rather evident that there’s a balancing fault when having 1 person bringing defensive gear to a zerker party actually makes a run take longer to complete and makes it more difficult at the same time. If anything, it should be a purely linear tradeoff.

Skoigoth.9238:

@Dragon Ruler X

Could you please explain to me why you feel this urgent need to “fix the zerker meta” in a concise and comprehensive manner?
Even after dozens of threads similar to this one, I still fail to see any valid reason justifying the bulk of the proposals presented here to “fix the meta”. Whatever that means…

Speaking for myself, it does come down to preference, but I have some valid reasons, IMHO.

• The Game Mechanics in PvE, particularly in dungeons, heavily favor one gear set over others, resulting in a lack of diversity and a lack of player choice in the matter.
• GW2 is a game that touts its high degree of character choice and customization, so it should support some degree of real choice in gear selection.
• The fact that one gear set is so heavily favored by dungeon design creates an atmosphere of of intolerance towards people who, for whatever reason, choose to run other gear sets, even if differences in DPS and running time are minor

Those are my reasons. I run a variety of gear sets in WvWvW, sPvP, and Silverwastes, and I like each of my characters to have a different playstyle associated with them (my Ranger is zerker, my Engi is Dire/Rabid, etc), and I don’t necessarily want to carry another gear set around just to speedrun dungeons (something that isn’t that fun to me anyways, even if the rewards are good).

Designing gear and dungeons in such a way as to make it so that one stat set isn’t so heavily favored will make dungeons more accessible (even if difficulty isn’t reduced) and move the emphasis from farming speed runs to actually having fun, interesting encounters.

Nike.2631:

cranos.5913:

I don’t get why ppl want to force guardian in a pure support role.

Making a support-focused character of any profession equally desirable to a 5th DPS lone wolf isn’t going to take away from the value of a DPS guardian spec’d, gear’d and run by a skilled player. And if someone tells you “You’re on a Guard, you have to be our support guy” I’ll be right here with you in spirit flipping them the bird.

The fun of GW2 is that everyone can DPS and has their unique class abilities to provide support/control to the fight.

No… That’s the fun for players who like to DPS. Believe it or not, all those players in other MMOs who run tanks, healers and CC masters…? Some of them actually enjoy THAT and GW2 basically takes a big dump on those customers at every turn.

You will probably never understand the sheer glee I’ve had in Stronghold spending the first 1/3-1/2 of the match pushing hard into the enemy camp and then falling back and using heals and support skills to make our Lord unbeatable against 3 and sometimes even 4 players while the rest of my team keeps the pressure on. A Lord fully healed and ready to laugh at them again by the time they pick their buttocks up and come back for a second (and third, and fourth…) try. Hallelujah! Only 3 years to get a mode where healing doesn’t get you spit on by competitive players.

All those people have a million games to choose from though. I love how the same people who like to quote anet on build diversity and personal choice conveniently forget them saying this game would have no dedicated tank or healer.

As for “guard can still be DPS”. Ofc it can be, only other classes would now do better at support + DPS, so this “fix” is only a direct nerf to 1 class (and not just in pve mind you). Sounds like a pretty terrible fix imo.

Nike.2631:

cranos.5913:

I don’t get why ppl want to force guardian in a pure support role.

Making a support-focused character of any profession equally desirable to a 5th DPS lone wolf isn’t going to take away from the value of a DPS guardian spec’d, gear’d and run by a skilled player. And if someone tells you “You’re on a Guard, you have to be our support guy” I’ll be right here with you in spirit flipping them the bird.

The fun of GW2 is that everyone can DPS and has their unique class abilities to provide support/control to the fight.

No… That’s the fun for players who like to DPS. Believe it or not, all those players in other MMOs who run tanks, healers and CC masters…? Some of them actually enjoy THAT and GW2 basically takes a big dump on those customers at every turn.

You will probably never understand the sheer glee I’ve had in Stronghold spending the first 1/3-1/2 of the match pushing hard into the enemy camp and then falling back and using heals and support skills to make our Lord unbeatable against 3 and sometimes even 4 players while the rest of my team keeps the pressure on. A Lord fully healed and ready to laugh at them again by the time they pick their buttocks up and come back for a second (and third, and fourth…) try. Hallelujah! Only 3 years to get a mode where healing doesn’t get you spit on by competitive players.

:D, I’ve always been a main CC guy, with tank and healer as my typical primary alts. DPS has never been what I liked best outside of just needing a break from support.

What I love about this game is I’m all that wrapped up together.

But, of course I always tried to do that in other games. I wasn’t lazy when I played healer, I’d DPS my butt off when healing wasn’t necessary even building some pretty awesome hybrid stuff when I knew what my minimum healing level required was. Likewise I did the same on tank, trying to minimize my defenses to eek out damage. My Bard in EQ I even got to a point where I’d be a regular on our top DPS chart all while performing my given role (CC>Cleansing>Buffing>DPS in that order).

I was playing High End in those other games though, where we expected players to do more than just their role. We all wanted to be more than just good.

Thing is gear doesn’t change gameplay. It simply enhances the gameplay choices you make.

Toss Clerics gear onto a GS+Axe/mace 65003 Banner Warrior and the way you play it optimally doesn’t change at all.

This is the reason why I feel the anti-zerk stuff to be silly.

Wanting support builds to have more use in PVE, sure, but it’s the BUILD we’re talking there, not the gear. And, honestly, it is quite powerful. Check out Skady’s Cleric Guard Fractal videos, it’s quite impressive. Now yes, the content doesn’t require it, nor do you really see any benefit in a quality team, but it sure can carry like a champ.

I’d love to see content that has us considering more BUILD options, but focusing on gear is just stupid because they’re just stats. Nerfing zerker (and all 3 offense stat gear, there’s 4 of them remember) won’t change my play style, it’ll just change the name of my gear… maybe.

Black Box.9312:

spoj.9672:

And both of those choices are bad. :P

The complaint that it “does it all” is completely unjustified. Anet intended for players to be able to do everything regardless of how they built their characters.

The real reason for the complaint is that people dont like the idea of a single optimum and because they cant turn a blind eye to it because of LFG descriptions. But news flash there is always a single optimum in any game. And thats something you are just going to have to accept and ignore if you dont like it.

Obviously there will always be some sort of meta, but the current problem we face with GW2 is that the efficiency gap between zerker builds and less damage-oriented builds is enormous. It’s rather evident that there’s a balancing fault when having 1 person bringing defensive gear to a zerker party actually makes a run take longer to complete and makes it more difficult at the same time. If anything, it should be a purely linear tradeoff.

This is completely false. The difference between a fully optimised group of experienced players utilising all buffs, portals and stealth and a pug group that has a mismatch of builds and doesnt utilise all tools at their disposal is enormous. The difference between a fully optimised group of experienced players utilising all buffs, portals and stealth and the same group using defensive gear but all the same buffs and strategies is very small.

We have proof of this. My guild did a no dodge fully defensive arah p2 a year back and we were deliberately very slow. Yes the entire run still only took 30 minutes. Which was faster than most pugs at the time. And we were certainly using worse builds for the run. We werent even stacking might and we werent using any remotely valid strategies yet we were faster than a pug.

Its the players that make the difference. The builds and gear are completely overshadowed by proper strategies and group buffing.

maha.7902:

No… That’s the fun for players who like to DPS. Believe it or not, all those players in other MMOs who run tanks, healers and CC masters…? Some of them actually enjoy THAT and GW2 basically takes a big dump on those customers at every turn.

yes, it takes a big dump on them by allowing them to do all of those things and yet do damage at the same time

how

dare

they

Not listening. You don’t do all those things and damage. You do those things somewhat (generally far less than you could build for) and are REQUIRED to do contribute to damage also (in successful groups). They made DPSing an obligation for all players instead of making groups obligated to wait for 1-2 non-DPS specialists. A strategy that on the whole has served them well because DPS-loving players are by far the largest demographic. But they are NOT 100% of the money coming in.

My most “healing oriented” character runs Zealot/Keeper armor because while I find a Heal-power pumped Battle Presence goes a LONG way towards keeping casual pugs and WvW zergs from face-planting (my zerker gear comes out for guild runs), fact is I MUST sling damage too. And I do. I’m not sitting here whining — I adapted to the game that IS long ago .

But we’re talking about tweaking the game. Changing what IS. I don’t need Zerker to be worse, but it would not break my heart if Healing Power/Zealots’ got better… Pure selfish self-interest speaking, but that’s the argument for Zerker too – those that like it, like it.

Jerus.4350:

Thing is gear doesn’t change gameplay. It simply enhances the gameplay choices you make.

Toss Clerics gear onto a GS+Axe/mace 65003 Banner Warrior and the way you play it optimally doesn’t change at all.

This is the reason why I feel the anti-zerk stuff to be silly.

Wanting support builds to have more use in PVE, sure, but it’s the BUILD we’re talking there, not the gear. And, honestly, it is quite powerful. Check out Skady’s Cleric Guard Fractal videos, it’s quite impressive. Now yes, the content doesn’t require it, nor do you really see any benefit in a quality team, but it sure can carry like a champ.

I’d love to see content that has us considering more BUILD options, but focusing on gear is just stupid because they’re just stats. Nerfing zerker (and all 3 offense stat gear, there’s 4 of them remember) won’t change my play style, it’ll just change the name of my gear… maybe.

My issue is that there are so many mechanics in GW2 that don’t get real use because stat combos that work with them are so inferior to zerker. As an oft-cited example, conditions are broken, so Ravager and Sinister will always lose to zerker, dps-wise. The fact that most dungeon damage (and a lot of encounters) are completely avoidable without that much skill is evidence that dungeons as a whole need a rework more than running glassy gear is necessarily “better”.

To put it a different way, selecting your character’s stats should consist of meaningful decisions, but when running glass has little to know downside, that is what will always be picked. I actually can not think of any other game where running full glass is optimal unless you have an absurd amount of skill.

Jelle.2807:

Nothing quite so elaborate is needed. All that needs to be done is for enemies to

A. Hit more frequently and have higher total dps, so you can’t use active defenses to avoid most of all damage (though still require active defenses to avoid a large part of it depending on profession)

B. Put party wide relatively unavoidable pressure damage, so some amount of party support and healing is necesary.

C. Not rally downed players on death. Rally on kill in pve has always been bad design and should be a pvp thing, it lets players go all out knowing they’ll rally anyway if they burst something down.

Edit: Also more enemies need cleave attacks so corner stacking dies horribly.

All your suggestion would do is make it so players calculate how much defense/offense they need to complete the encounter for a given amount of pressure and wear that amount of defensive gear.

All you’ve done is change the meta from “Zerker only” to “zerker jewels + soldier armor only”. So the content takes longer, rewards good players less, bad players more and still leaves us with a single best combination of gear. Why is this better?

Every game I played for a long time has had the “DPS issue” of killing it so fast you trivialize encounters. Only the better designed content could break it. Point being that it’s not just GW2, it’s just that GW2 doesn’t have very much content and certainly not much good content.

But, Liadri I actually took off my zerk gear and threw on Soldiers, whittled her down for my first win (refused to use the lifesteal exploits). So i wouldn’t say it doesn’t exist, just that I’m unable to think of many examples, or really any other than that.

I can think of tons of examples where I change my build though, but you’re right that there are a lot of underutilized tools. Some ramped up content could really help with that though. I mean if I can’t say that I’ll be able to avoid all the damage suddenly weakness/protection uptime and a bit of healing becomes something I want. If a fight is longer with the condi cap changes I think they’ll make a play, I mean already for some professions Condi builds are the top kill times for say Abom or Lupi solos.

But, again, I don’t see “Zerker” as a problem, I simply see another instance of the “DPS issue” that I’ve seen in every game I’ve played, and the solution is content, not nerfing damage.

Don’t nerf Zerk. Nerf the endurance bar. By far the most compelling aspect of GW2, and possibly the most crippling when it comes to diversity. We don’t have alternatives to Zerker because the “skilled” have shown the masses, that running Zerk, learning patterns, and DECENT mitigation can get you through most encounters. Anet removes double dodge from base and you have a new Dungeon/PvE/WvW experience. To prevent Range Wars, make range less effective. “That cripples/discriminates range players”. Range shouldn’t hit as hard as PB attacks anyway. If you trait for range, then you make it that much closer to melee effectiveness but they shouldn’t be equal. I am more in favor of a nerf to endurance (and slight bump for H/power scale) than a nerf to Zerk.

dom.2748:

You can’t “master” gear…

The reason nobody wears other sets is because they are not good. The stats either don’t work properly like healing power which is just weak and doesn’t scale at all. Or the mechanics simply don’t work correctly like condi. Condi stack limitations in PvE make it all but pointless. So the solution to balancing out the stat sets a bit more isn’t to break the optimal solution but to make the other solutions actually useful.

Personally I feel that if you walked around with no gear that your survival would be low and damage out put minimal. The gear makes the build. You set your traits up primarily on what you want to do, but then your gear typically compliments the traits. Therefore the same “build” could be used with different “gear” and if one set gives you great sustain and the other little sustain you have to spend time mastering the build because of your gear change – so in a sense you have to master the gear – not the build.

The rest I mostly agree with. The only thing I’ll mention is that as you mentioned we have 2 choices. We can make everything else far more powerful/useful or we can limit the abilities of the current “Meta” builds and thus the other gear becomes more viable than before.

LTREEVEY.2348:

Don’t nerf Zerk. Nerf the endurance bar. By far the most compelling aspect of GW2, and possibly the most crippling when it comes to diversity. We don’t have alternatives to Zerker because the “skilled” have shown the masses, that running Zerk, learning patterns, and DECENT mitigation can get you through most encounters. Anet removes double dodge from base and you have a new Dungeon/PvE/WvW experience. To prevent Range Wars, make range less effective. “That cripples/discriminates range players”. Range shouldn’t hit as hard as PB attacks anyway. If you trait for range, then you make it that much closer to melee effectiveness but they shouldn’t be equal. I am more in favor of a nerf to endurance (and slight bump for H/power scale) than a nerf to Zerk.

I’d rather they focus their attention on new harder content where just dodging won’t be enough than them having to rebalance 3 game modes to “fix” a gear stat in 3 year old content that isn’t broken in the first place.

Why was this thread merged with the other thread about why zerk should be nerfed? This thread is about somebody asking if it is going to be nerfed and the other was reasons why it should/shouldn’t be… These two threads were unrelated…

anabasis.7346:

Boss attacks should have tells, this is AI design 101.

I agree with Tells but not patterns.

Not sure why this got merged?

Dragon Ruler X.8512:

Not sure why this got merged?

Because there’s like 6 “fix the zerker meta” threads right now.

cranos.5913:

LTREEVEY.2348:

Don’t nerf Zerk. Nerf the endurance bar. By far the most compelling aspect of GW2, and possibly the most crippling when it comes to diversity. We don’t have alternatives to Zerker because the “skilled” have shown the masses, that running Zerk, learning patterns, and DECENT mitigation can get you through most encounters. Anet removes double dodge from base and you have a new Dungeon/PvE/WvW experience. To prevent Range Wars, make range less effective. “That cripples/discriminates range players”. Range shouldn’t hit as hard as PB attacks anyway. If you trait for range, then you make it that much closer to melee effectiveness but they shouldn’t be equal. I am more in favor of a nerf to endurance (and slight bump for H/power scale) than a nerf to Zerk.

I’d rather they focus their attention on new harder content where just dodging won’t be enough than them having to rebalance 3 game modes to “fix” a gear stat in 3 year old content that isn’t broken in the first place.

Harder content is high on my list as well, and like I said, I don’t want Zerk to change either. The thread kind of got off topic and merged with another, but my suggestion(s) were just an alternative to nerfing Zerk.

It’s funny how perspective works. I’ve created healers in every online game I’ve played since GW that features group play. I don’t view GW2’s combat system as obliging me to do damage, I view it as freeing me to do damage.

cranos.5913:

Neox.3497:

Nike.2631:

If (for example) the amount of damage absorbed by Aegis scaled with your toughness (making it an active stat instead of an entirely passive one), you’d see people considering where and how much Toughness they can squeeze into their build without sacrificing too much damage.

Or even better make the amount of damage absorbed by Aegis scale with the thoughness of the person who gave it to you.

I don’t get why ppl want to force guardian in a pure support role. The fun of GW2 is that everyone can DPS and has their unique class abilities to provide support/control to the fight. Get rid of aegis sure, why not scale the amount of condi removal on healing power? Cleric guardian meta… oh wait no people would just swap to mesmer.

You want guardians to stop “carrying” their group with blocks? Add more than 3 attacks on a boss. Problem solved without having to destroy a class in the process.

Why force? You can still have guards that deal damage. The problem is about STATS. Going for “support” stats doesn’t work because there are no “support” stats.
Additionally they could add elite specs for other professions that have more aegis.
And if they change that and you think guard would be UP they could also beef up the guardian damage a bit for compensation.

IndigoSundown.5419:

It’s funny how perspective works. I’ve created healers in every online game I’ve played since GW that features group play. I don’t view GW2’s combat system as obliging me to do damage, I view it as freeing me to do damage.

EXACTLY, I’m still able to play my support but now I do damage as well and constantly have to watch for hits, I get to do it all.

anabasis.7346:

The “random and harder to read attacks” idea is one of the most widespread and myopic suggestions ever. It punishes skilled and knowledgeable players that know when to use active defenses while rewarding unskilled players that use more tanky gear.

It promotes the use of passive defenses to soak up damage instead of using active defenses to prevent taking any damage.

Boss attacks should have tells, this is AI design 101. If someone is skilled and knowledgeable to see a telegraphed attack coming, he should be able to use his active defenses to avoid it instead of having to use tankier gear because attacks have become randomised so he cannot dodge them anymore unless he gets lucky with his dodges.

Even worse, those who defend this bad idea are doing it for the sake of gear stat variety which makes their cause even less justifiable.

How is using Tanky gear rewarded, if it takes longer to clear content and get the prize? Isn’t that why Zerk is the Meta, because you can loot faster/earn more over time?

Tells already exist in game, so in watching for the tell acting accordingly, we are in agreement, but how is looking for a telegraph rather than knowing a pattern differ if they both require an action from the player? I am more in favor of “varying patterns” than randomness.

There is merit in arguing for “randomness” and if people want other sets to be recognized as acceptable(because almost everything is viable), what’s less justifiable about that?

LTREEVEY.2348:

anabasis.7346:

The “random and harder to read attacks” idea is one of the most widespread and myopic suggestions ever. It punishes skilled and knowledgeable players that know when to use active defenses while rewarding unskilled players that use more tanky gear.

It promotes the use of passive defenses to soak up damage instead of using active defenses to prevent taking any damage.

Boss attacks should have tells, this is AI design 101. If someone is skilled and knowledgeable to see a telegraphed attack coming, he should be able to use his active defenses to avoid it instead of having to use tankier gear because attacks have become randomised so he cannot dodge them anymore unless he gets lucky with his dodges.

Even worse, those who defend this bad idea are doing it for the sake of gear stat variety which makes their cause even less justifiable.

How is using Tanky gear rewarded, if it takes longer to clear content and get the prize? Isn’t that why Zerk is the Meta, because you can loot faster/earn more over time?

Tells already exist in game, so in watching for the tell acting accordingly, we are in agreement, but how is looking for a telegraph rather than knowing a pattern differ if they both require an action from the player? I am more in favor of “varying patterns” than randomness.

There is merit in arguing for “randomness” and if people want other sets to be recognized as acceptable(because almost everything is viable), what’s less justifiable about that?

Zerk should still be the most efficient gear set to speed run dungeons with, but it should be much harder to do so. There’s higher reward, so there should be more risk associated with it.

Neox.3497:

cranos.5913:

Neox.3497:

Nike.2631:

If (for example) the amount of damage absorbed by Aegis scaled with your toughness (making it an active stat instead of an entirely passive one), you’d see people considering where and how much Toughness they can squeeze into their build without sacrificing too much damage.

Or even better make the amount of damage absorbed by Aegis scale with the thoughness of the person who gave it to you.

I don’t get why ppl want to force guardian in a pure support role. The fun of GW2 is that everyone can DPS and has their unique class abilities to provide support/control to the fight. Get rid of aegis sure, why not scale the amount of condi removal on healing power? Cleric guardian meta… oh wait no people would just swap to mesmer.

You want guardians to stop “carrying” their group with blocks? Add more than 3 attacks on a boss. Problem solved without having to destroy a class in the process.

Why force? You can still have guards that deal damage. The problem is about STATS. Going for “support” stats doesn’t work because there are no “support” stats.
Additionally they could add elite specs for other professions that have more aegis.
And if they change that and you think guard would be UP they could also beef up the guardian damage a bit for compensation.

Why bother with support stats at all? Does it matter so much that it says knights instead of berserker on your gear? Do we really have to carry 5 ascended armors and a myriad of ascended weapons in our 160 slot inventory because you want fake diversity that won’t even change gameplay in the first place?

“Beef up guard dmg” If I wanted to be top dmg I’d play ele or thief. I quite enjoy the support role. What I wouldn’t enjoy is basically afking spamming support abilities that only work with nomads gear. No need to do dmg, it wouldn’t make a difference in that gearset anyway.

Your solution would do 2 things:
1. nerf the base guardian
2. make toughness in a support stat for just 1 class

End result: toughness still useless in pve but guard nerfed over all game modes.

cranos.5913:

Neox.3497:

cranos.5913:

Neox.3497:

Nike.2631:

If (for example) the amount of damage absorbed by Aegis scaled with your toughness (making it an active stat instead of an entirely passive one), you’d see people considering where and how much Toughness they can squeeze into their build without sacrificing too much damage.

Or even better make the amount of damage absorbed by Aegis scale with the thoughness of the person who gave it to you.

I don’t get why ppl want to force guardian in a pure support role. The fun of GW2 is that everyone can DPS and has their unique class abilities to provide support/control to the fight. Get rid of aegis sure, why not scale the amount of condi removal on healing power? Cleric guardian meta… oh wait no people would just swap to mesmer.

You want guardians to stop “carrying” their group with blocks? Add more than 3 attacks on a boss. Problem solved without having to destroy a class in the process.

Why force? You can still have guards that deal damage. The problem is about STATS. Going for “support” stats doesn’t work because there are no “support” stats.
Additionally they could add elite specs for other professions that have more aegis.
And if they change that and you think guard would be UP they could also beef up the guardian damage a bit for compensation.

Why bother with support stats at all? Does it matter so much that it says knights instead of berserker on your gear? Do we really have to carry 5 ascended armors and a myriad of ascended weapons in our 160 slot inventory because you want fake diversity that won’t even change gameplay in the first place?

Then why have STATS at all? Really with what you said GW2 (PvE) should only have 1 combination of stats.
I don’t want another stat to be the new meta I want MULTIPLE stats on the same class be the “meta” not ONE for ALL classes.
You could have Guardians that play zerker and deal massive damage (maybe a bit less than an ele but that’s life) and Guardians that go support.
Both would also have different skills and traits since the support build wouldn’t be that effective anymore on the zerker stat guard.

spoj.9672:

Black Box.9312:

spoj.9672:

And both of those choices are bad. :P

The complaint that it “does it all” is completely unjustified. Anet intended for players to be able to do everything regardless of how they built their characters.

The real reason for the complaint is that people dont like the idea of a single optimum and because they cant turn a blind eye to it because of LFG descriptions. But news flash there is always a single optimum in any game. And thats something you are just going to have to accept and ignore if you dont like it.

Obviously there will always be some sort of meta, but the current problem we face with GW2 is that the efficiency gap between zerker builds and less damage-oriented builds is enormous. It’s rather evident that there’s a balancing fault when having 1 person bringing defensive gear to a zerker party actually makes a run take longer to complete and makes it more difficult at the same time. If anything, it should be a purely linear tradeoff.

This is completely false. The difference between a fully optimised group of experienced players utilising all buffs, portals and stealth and a pug group that has a mismatch of builds and doesnt utilise all tools at their disposal is enormous. The difference between a fully optimised group of experienced players utilising all buffs, portals and stealth and the same group using defensive gear but all the same buffs and strategies is very small.

We have proof of this. My guild did a no dodge fully defensive arah p2 a year back and we were deliberately very slow. Yes the entire run still only took 30 minutes. Which was faster than most pugs at the time. And we were certainly using worse builds for the run. We werent even stacking might and we werent using any remotely valid strategies yet we were faster than a pug.

Its the players that make the difference. The builds and gear are completely overshadowed by proper strategies and group buffing.

Obviously in-depth knowledge of the dungeon layout and structure of each encounter provides an advantage, but your example doesn’t really provide a counterpoint to what I said about using “easier” gear actually making things more difficult for a group that is primarily centered around DPS-oriented builds.

In a way, you’re just shooting yourself in the foot with this argument, because saying that strategy and expertise triumphs over builds and gear just makes the elitist mentality that many carry behind the zerker meta all the more unjustified. Which one is it?

Nike.2631:

No… That’s the fun for players who like to DPS. Believe it or not, all those players in other MMOs who run tanks, healers and CC masters…? Some of them actually enjoy THAT and GW2 basically takes a big dump on those customers at every turn.

If only anet had told us that the game would have active combat. If only they told us ahead of time all characters would be DPS. If only they told us ahead of launch that there would not be any dedicated “tanks, healers and CC masters.”

If only.

OH WAIT..

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/guild-wars-2-has-no-healers-or-tanks

Please reply with apologies only.

anabasis.7346:

LTREEVEY.2348:

anabasis.7346:

The “random and harder to read attacks” idea is one of the most widespread and myopic suggestions ever. It punishes skilled and knowledgeable players that know when to use active defenses while rewarding unskilled players that use more tanky gear.

It promotes the use of passive defenses to soak up damage instead of using active defenses to prevent taking any damage.

Boss attacks should have tells, this is AI design 101. If someone is skilled and knowledgeable to see a telegraphed attack coming, he should be able to use his active defenses to avoid it instead of having to use tankier gear because attacks have become randomised so he cannot dodge them anymore unless he gets lucky with his dodges.

Even worse, those who defend this bad idea are doing it for the sake of gear stat variety which makes their cause even less justifiable.

How is using Tanky gear rewarded, if it takes longer to clear content and get the prize? Isn’t that why Zerk is the Meta, because you can loot faster/earn more over time?

Tells already exist in game, so in watching for the tell acting accordingly, we are in agreement, but how is looking for a telegraph rather than knowing a pattern differ if they both require an action from the player? I am more in favor of “varying patterns” than randomness.

There is merit in arguing for “randomness” and if people want other sets to be recognized as acceptable(because almost everything is viable), what’s less justifiable about that?

If you can’t figure out why random, unavoidable or harder to read attacks rewards reactive gameplay while punishing proactive and skillful gameplay I’m not gonna help you.
I just don’t feel like explaining to you such simple things like the sky is blue. You should be able to realize that in the blink of an eye.

You’ve completely missed the point. Random attack patterns doesn’t mean you can’t be proactive – it means you have to be more cautious when fighting.

An easy example is the Chieftain and Svanir in the PvP lobby. They hit really hard and can mess you up bad and fast if you don’t know the pattern. As soon as you learn the pattern they no longer provide a challenge and killing them is a joke. If it was random as to if the Chieftain was going to throw an axe at you or do a dazing leap stomp (made that up) or both for his opening attack you couldn’t just walk up and prep a reflect from a distance then when he gets close KB and upon return blind/KD/block the rest of his attacks while you kill him. No – if his attack pattern was random – you’d need to actually learn how to play conservatively with your skills while still trying to optimize damage dealt.

Neox.3497:

cranos.5913:

Neox.3497:

cranos.5913:

Neox.3497:

Nike.2631:

If (for example) the amount of damage absorbed by Aegis scaled with your toughness (making it an active stat instead of an entirely passive one), you’d see people considering where and how much Toughness they can squeeze into their build without sacrificing too much damage.

Or even better make the amount of damage absorbed by Aegis scale with the thoughness of the person who gave it to you.

I don’t get why ppl want to force guardian in a pure support role. The fun of GW2 is that everyone can DPS and has their unique class abilities to provide support/control to the fight. Get rid of aegis sure, why not scale the amount of condi removal on healing power? Cleric guardian meta… oh wait no people would just swap to mesmer.

You want guardians to stop “carrying” their group with blocks? Add more than 3 attacks on a boss. Problem solved without having to destroy a class in the process.

Why force? You can still have guards that deal damage. The problem is about STATS. Going for “support” stats doesn’t work because there are no “support” stats.
Additionally they could add elite specs for other professions that have more aegis.
And if they change that and you think guard would be UP they could also beef up the guardian damage a bit for compensation.

Why bother with support stats at all? Does it matter so much that it says knights instead of berserker on your gear? Do we really have to carry 5 ascended armors and a myriad of ascended weapons in our 160 slot inventory because you want fake diversity that won’t even change gameplay in the first place?

Then why have STATS at all? Really with what you said GW2 (PvE) should only have 1 combination of stats.
I don’t want another stat to be the new meta I want MULTIPLE stats on the same class be the “meta” not ONE for ALL classes.
You could have Guardians that play zerker and deal massive damage (maybe a bit less than an ele but that’s life) and Guardians that go support.
Both would also have different skills and traits since the support build wouldn’t be that effective anymore on the zerker stat guard.

“a little bit less that ele but that’s life”. The reason you don’t stack just 1 highest DPS class is because all classes currently offer unique utility. Make this utility tied to useless gear and all this would do is force guardian out of the meta and throwing them on the pile of useless classes like necro. Make all support tied to gear and you basically go back towards trinity with forced support only classes in the meta.

Basically you’re saying I want to play support only and everyone should be forced to play my way in pve, wvw and spvp.

NikeEU.7690:

Nike.2631:

No… That’s the fun for players who like to DPS. Believe it or not, all those players in other MMOs who run tanks, healers and CC masters…? Some of them actually enjoy THAT and GW2 basically takes a big dump on those customers at every turn.

If only anet had told us that the game would have active combat. If only they told us ahead of time all characters would be DPS. If only they told us ahead of launch that there would not be any dedicated “tanks, healers and CC masters.”

If only.

OH WAIT..

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/guild-wars-2-has-no-healers-or-tanks

Please reply with apologies only.

This needs to be quoted like a billion times.

Black Box.9312:

spoj.9672:

Black Box.9312:

spoj.9672:

And both of those choices are bad. :P

The complaint that it “does it all” is completely unjustified. Anet intended for players to be able to do everything regardless of how they built their characters.

The real reason for the complaint is that people dont like the idea of a single optimum and because they cant turn a blind eye to it because of LFG descriptions. But news flash there is always a single optimum in any game. And thats something you are just going to have to accept and ignore if you dont like it.

Obviously there will always be some sort of meta, but the current problem we face with GW2 is that the efficiency gap between zerker builds and less damage-oriented builds is enormous. It’s rather evident that there’s a balancing fault when having 1 person bringing defensive gear to a zerker party actually makes a run take longer to complete and makes it more difficult at the same time. If anything, it should be a purely linear tradeoff.

This is completely false. The difference between a fully optimised group of experienced players utilising all buffs, portals and stealth and a pug group that has a mismatch of builds and doesnt utilise all tools at their disposal is enormous. The difference between a fully optimised group of experienced players utilising all buffs, portals and stealth and the same group using defensive gear but all the same buffs and strategies is very small.

We have proof of this. My guild did a no dodge fully defensive arah p2 a year back and we were deliberately very slow. Yes the entire run still only took 30 minutes. Which was faster than most pugs at the time. And we were certainly using worse builds for the run. We werent even stacking might and we werent using any remotely valid strategies yet we were faster than a pug.

Its the players that make the difference. The builds and gear are completely overshadowed by proper strategies and group buffing.

Obviously in-depth knowledge of the dungeon layout and structure of each encounter provides an advantage, but your example doesn’t really provide a counterpoint to what I said about using “easier” gear actually making things more difficult for a group that is primarily centered around DPS-oriented builds.

In a way, you’re just shooting yourself in the foot with this argument, because saying that strategy and expertise triumphs over builds and gear just makes the elitist mentality that many carry behind the zerker meta all the more unjustified. Which one is it?

Yeah i admit that was a poor example. However I can expand on that example. That was basically the worst possible composition and builds yet it wasnt that bad for time. If we had actually used proper strategies and stacked buffs with those terrible builds we would have saved 15 minutes easily.

The gap between berserker and other builds is not enormous. Its trivial. Its all the other factors that make the gap.

anabasis.7346:

LTREEVEY.2348:

anabasis.7346:

The “random and harder to read attacks” idea is one of the most widespread and myopic suggestions ever. It punishes skilled and knowledgeable players that know when to use active defenses while rewarding unskilled players that use more tanky gear.

It promotes the use of passive defenses to soak up damage instead of using active defenses to prevent taking any damage.

Boss attacks should have tells, this is AI design 101. If someone is skilled and knowledgeable to see a telegraphed attack coming, he should be able to use his active defenses to avoid it instead of having to use tankier gear because attacks have become randomised so he cannot dodge them anymore unless he gets lucky with his dodges.

Even worse, those who defend this bad idea are doing it for the sake of gear stat variety which makes their cause even less justifiable.

How is using Tanky gear rewarded, if it takes longer to clear content and get the prize? Isn’t that why Zerk is the Meta, because you can loot faster/earn more over time?

Tells already exist in game, so in watching for the tell acting accordingly, we are in agreement, but how is looking for a telegraph rather than knowing a pattern differ if they both require an action from the player? I am more in favor of “varying patterns” than randomness.

There is merit in arguing for “randomness” and if people want other sets to be recognized as acceptable(because almost everything is viable), what’s less justifiable about that?

If you can’t figure out why random, unavoidable or harder to read attacks reward reactive gameplay while punishing proactive and skillful gameplay I’m not gonna help you.
I just don’t feel like explaining to you such simple things like the sky is blue. You should be able to realize that in the blink of an eye.

Lol. don’t be a “kitten”. I’m a nice guy.
So what your saying is there is more skill in being procative (acting beforehand) than reactive(acting as a result of)? Got it. I am proposing more of both(proactive and reactive) tbh but w/e. If you know the Lupi (or mob creature x,y,andz) does 1, 2, 3, then 4, everytime, and you “pre-act” to this, you’re more skillful than going against 1,2,3and 4, in w/e combination, and reacting? Cool.

In terms of reward, Anet can’t reward us for running the meta(we created) by giving more loot, which is why the Meta is what it is. It puts emphasis on completing more content over time, giving the “chance” for more loot, and therefore being more rewarding, If I and/or my group ran (w/e)tf instead of Zerk, because it has more defense, I and/or my group would clear content slower and although, I and/or my group will most likely complete the content, it would be at a slower rate than a Meta group and earn less rewards? So where am I being rewarded for running tanky gear? I lessen the risk of failure and run the risk of less profit. I don’t see the reward in less profit, nor am I saying it should be otherwise. Blink…Blink

I’m not saying you are wrong…

spoj.9672:

Black Box.9312:

spoj.9672:

Black Box.9312:

spoj.9672:

And both of those choices are bad. :P

The complaint that it “does it all” is completely unjustified. Anet intended for players to be able to do everything regardless of how they built their characters.

The real reason for the complaint is that people dont like the idea of a single optimum and because they cant turn a blind eye to it because of LFG descriptions. But news flash there is always a single optimum in any game. And thats something you are just going to have to accept and ignore if you dont like it.

Obviously there will always be some sort of meta, but the current problem we face with GW2 is that the efficiency gap between zerker builds and less damage-oriented builds is enormous. It’s rather evident that there’s a balancing fault when having 1 person bringing defensive gear to a zerker party actually makes a run take longer to complete and makes it more difficult at the same time. If anything, it should be a purely linear tradeoff.

This is completely false. The difference between a fully optimised group of experienced players utilising all buffs, portals and stealth and a pug group that has a mismatch of builds and doesnt utilise all tools at their disposal is enormous. The difference between a fully optimised group of experienced players utilising all buffs, portals and stealth and the same group using defensive gear but all the same buffs and strategies is very small.

We have proof of this. My guild did a no dodge fully defensive arah p2 a year back and we were deliberately very slow. Yes the entire run still only took 30 minutes. Which was faster than most pugs at the time. And we were certainly using worse builds for the run. We werent even stacking might and we werent using any remotely valid strategies yet we were faster than a pug.

Its the players that make the difference. The builds and gear are completely overshadowed by proper strategies and group buffing.

Obviously in-depth knowledge of the dungeon layout and structure of each encounter provides an advantage, but your example doesn’t really provide a counterpoint to what I said about using “easier” gear actually making things more difficult for a group that is primarily centered around DPS-oriented builds.

In a way, you’re just shooting yourself in the foot with this argument, because saying that strategy and expertise triumphs over builds and gear just makes the elitist mentality that many carry behind the zerker meta all the more unjustified. Which one is it?

Yeah i admit that was a poor example. However I can expand on that example. That was basically the worst possible composition and builds yet it wasnt that bad for time. If we had actually used proper strategies and stacked buffs with those terrible builds we would have saved 15 minutes easily.

The gap between berserker and other builds is not enormous. Its trivial. Its all the other factors that make the gap.

If that’s the case, then I still don’t get why people make such a big deal about zerker/meta setups. If the build and gear aren’t that great of a factor, then why are so many people so snobbish about it? Most pug groups don’t go trying to shatter time records, so how come people emphasize having zerker gear/meta build groups, over simply asking for people with adequate dungeon knowledge? The two aren’t necessarily directly related to each other.

Black Box.9312:

spoj.9672:

Black Box.9312:

spoj.9672:

Black Box.9312:

spoj.9672:

And both of those choices are bad. :P

The complaint that it “does it all” is completely unjustified. Anet intended for players to be able to do everything regardless of how they built their characters.

The real reason for the complaint is that people dont like the idea of a single optimum and because they cant turn a blind eye to it because of LFG descriptions. But news flash there is always a single optimum in any game. And thats something you are just going to have to accept and ignore if you dont like it.

Obviously there will always be some sort of meta, but the current problem we face with GW2 is that the efficiency gap between zerker builds and less damage-oriented builds is enormous. It’s rather evident that there’s a balancing fault when having 1 person bringing defensive gear to a zerker party actually makes a run take longer to complete and makes it more difficult at the same time. If anything, it should be a purely linear tradeoff.

This is completely false. The difference between a fully optimised group of experienced players utilising all buffs, portals and stealth and a pug group that has a mismatch of builds and doesnt utilise all tools at their disposal is enormous. The difference between a fully optimised group of experienced players utilising all buffs, portals and stealth and the same group using defensive gear but all the same buffs and strategies is very small.

We have proof of this. My guild did a no dodge fully defensive arah p2 a year back and we were deliberately very slow. Yes the entire run still only took 30 minutes. Which was faster than most pugs at the time. And we were certainly using worse builds for the run. We werent even stacking might and we werent using any remotely valid strategies yet we were faster than a pug.

Its the players that make the difference. The builds and gear are completely overshadowed by proper strategies and group buffing.

Obviously in-depth knowledge of the dungeon layout and structure of each encounter provides an advantage, but your example doesn’t really provide a counterpoint to what I said about using “easier” gear actually making things more difficult for a group that is primarily centered around DPS-oriented builds.

In a way, you’re just shooting yourself in the foot with this argument, because saying that strategy and expertise triumphs over builds and gear just makes the elitist mentality that many carry behind the zerker meta all the more unjustified. Which one is it?

Yeah i admit that was a poor example. However I can expand on that example. That was basically the worst possible composition and builds yet it wasnt that bad for time. If we had actually used proper strategies and stacked buffs with those terrible builds we would have saved 15 minutes easily.

The gap between berserker and other builds is not enormous. Its trivial. Its all the other factors that make the gap.

If that’s the case, then I still don’t get why people make such a big deal about zerker/meta setups. If the build and gear aren’t that great of a factor, then why are so many people so snobbish about it? Most pug groups don’t go trying to shatter time records, so how come people emphasize having zerker gear/meta build groups, over simply asking for people with adequate dungeon knowledge? The two aren’t necessarily directly related to each other.

Because to go back to a beloved theme (not really beloved), the zerk meta problem is people not gameplay.

I think a lot of people who are complaining about the berserker meta are mainly the ones complaining about it in dungeons/fotm. No one really complains about the berserker meta in open world. Most people choose “berserker” because they feel they can get the most gold out of their limited play time. If a player only has 1 hour to play, it is only logical for them to want to squeeze as many dungeons in as possible to maximize their gold rewards. Any one who is slowing them down is basically hindering their ability to get gold hence the conflicts and toxicity. Now this can be applied to beginner players as well. If beginners/non berserkers join a player’s group whose purpose is to get gold, this creates a toxic environment where one player’s goal(to make gold as fast as possible) is hindered. So when you read LFGS “zerker exp only” it translates into “I want as much gold as possible on my limited play time, don’t join if you are going to slow me down.”

My solution: Along with the 24 hour time range/gate that is already in place, create a 30 minute time range where you can only earn 1 dungeon path reward and make the dungeon reward 5g. So from 8PM to 8:30PM regardless of when you start, you can only get 1 dungeon reward if you finish in that time slot. If you started at 8:20 and finished at 8:40 your dungeon reward counts towards the 8:30PM-9:00PM time range. What this does is it makes it so speed does not equal more reward.

The solution is to just roll berserker (no offense).

OP is a solution in search of a problem.

If you want to use gear that isn’t berserker, avoid berserker-only groups. Problem solved.

right now I have plenty of gold and only dungeon for dungeoneer. Only like 30 skins away. This suggestions screws over people going for tokens. Not to mention it would be very complicated to implement. What if you DC? What if you buy a path? What if someone leaves half way through? Does the new person only take half the time penalty? I would see people taking alt accounts and opening the dungeon, letting it sit for 20ish mins then bringing people in or even selling the dungeon that hasn’t even started but has sat for 20 mins.

Andraus.3874:

right now I have plenty of gold and only dungeon for dungeoneer. Only like 30 skins away. This suggestions screws over people going for tokens. Not to mention it would be very complicated to implement. What if you DC? What if you buy a path? What if someone leaves half way through? Does the new person only take half the time penalty? I would see people taking alt accounts and opening the dungeon, letting it sit for 20ish mins then bringing people in or even selling the dungeon that hasn’t even started but has sat for 20 mins.

What if you DC now? You don’t get your reward.
With if you DC with the proposed system? You don’t get your reward.

What if you Buy a path now? You get your reward/
What if you Buy a path with the proposed sytem? You get your reward for the time range that you earned the reward on.

Does the new person only take half the time penalty now? no
Does the new person only take half the time penalty with proposed sytem? no

You can only get 60 tokens per day per path. It is already time gated.

Emergencee.8259:

This would just make more people unhappy. As things stand, people going for the berserker gear aren’t hurting anything. You can easily avoid them by reading the LFG and just not joining their groups. Putting dungeon rewards on a timer, however, would be penalizing a pretty decent number of people, particularly the ones who spent all that time learning to breeze through paths as quickly as possible (who are probably the people who use the dungeons the most).

There’s also the issue of new players. I’ve been in PUGs with several all-new players before and it definitely slows things down. If you put a time limit on, plenty of people are just going to kick the newbies on principle instead of risking not making the next reset.

Up the reward to adjust for the timegate it’s what they did when they introduced the 24hour time gate on dungeons.

Even if dungeons can only be done once every 30 minutes doesn’t mean I would want to spend 30 minutes inside a dungeon. I’d still want to spend as little time as possible in the dungeon. While waiting for the next time to go I could do other stuff, like farm, some PvP, a daily, go afk and do something at home. But NOT spend 30 minutes in the dungeon. That would be boring as heck.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Even if dungeons can only be done once every 30 minutes doesn’t mean I would want to spend 30 minutes inside a dungeon. I’d still want to spend as little time as possible in the dungeon. While waiting for the next time to go I could do other stuff, like farm, some PvP, a daily, go afk and do something at home. But NOT spend 30 minutes in the dungeon. That would be boring as heck.

Makes dungeons more casual friendly and you know Anet loves supporting casual friendliness.

I meant if you DC and come back. So from what I gather is your timer would reset and you would have to wait another 30 mins. Even if you DC at 25 mins, come back to the same party and instance, and then have the timer reset to 30 again.

I’m really not gonna bother posting again this won’t happen. It is way too complicated and Anet just wouldn’t do this for something that isn’t broken. They aren’t dumping their resources into implementing something like this, this would take a lot of work for something that already works.

Anyway good luck with this.

Edit: I think you miss understood my post. As I see it there is no time penalty “now” except for reset daily. Your system implements a time penalty every 30 mins either from when the time the dungeon opens (in that case people could sell dungeons that sit for 20ish mins) or from the time the person enters (in this case you have the DC issue where someone DCs at 25 mins and comes back to re enter and have the full 30 mins penalty again). Either way it is too complicated.

This seems like a bit much. We should get BamHI in here to come restrict this “solution” from the forums, amirite?

Can we just get all these “Nerf Zerker” threads merged into one super nerf zerker thread? I mean in the same way that all the “bring back SAB” threads got merged into one super thread…

You know, so it’s easier to ignore.

EDIT: Going to flag all the “Nerf Zerker” threads as duplicates and paste a link to this one so they can get megamerged into one steaming pile.

EcoRI.9273:

Up the reward to adjust for the timegate it’s what they did when they introduced the 24hour time gate on dungeons.

Not really, 24 hour time gate was there way before ANet up the reward, ANet up the reward because they remove a large portion of gold drop from boss/chest to prevent people from looping through the same path(cof p1) over and over.

EcoRI.9273:

So when you read LFGS “zerker exp only” it translates into “I want as much gold as possible on my limited play time, don’t join if you are going to slow me down.”

My solution: Along with the 24 hour time range/gate that is already in place, create a 30 minute time range where you can only earn 1 dungeon path reward and make the dungeon reward 5g.
What this does is it makes it so speed does not equal more reward.

So you rather want to reward "Hurr Durr, I’m going to join a “Zerker only” party with my nomads gear to troll them" -people?