Guild Wars 2

Nah, this is way too complicated and restrictive. Why would we want more arbitrary time gating?

Players just need to be more communicative and aware. Read postings and ask questions if unsure. Most of the conflict I have seen arises when someone stumbles into a party that doesn’t gel with their play style or skill level, and says nothing.

Windsagio.1340:

Black Box.9312:

spoj.9672:

Black Box.9312:

spoj.9672:

Black Box.9312:

spoj.9672:

And both of those choices are bad. :P

The complaint that it “does it all” is completely unjustified. Anet intended for players to be able to do everything regardless of how they built their characters.

The real reason for the complaint is that people dont like the idea of a single optimum and because they cant turn a blind eye to it because of LFG descriptions. But news flash there is always a single optimum in any game. And thats something you are just going to have to accept and ignore if you dont like it.

Obviously there will always be some sort of meta, but the current problem we face with GW2 is that the efficiency gap between zerker builds and less damage-oriented builds is enormous. It’s rather evident that there’s a balancing fault when having 1 person bringing defensive gear to a zerker party actually makes a run take longer to complete and makes it more difficult at the same time. If anything, it should be a purely linear tradeoff.

This is completely false. The difference between a fully optimised group of experienced players utilising all buffs, portals and stealth and a pug group that has a mismatch of builds and doesnt utilise all tools at their disposal is enormous. The difference between a fully optimised group of experienced players utilising all buffs, portals and stealth and the same group using defensive gear but all the same buffs and strategies is very small.

We have proof of this. My guild did a no dodge fully defensive arah p2 a year back and we were deliberately very slow. Yes the entire run still only took 30 minutes. Which was faster than most pugs at the time. And we were certainly using worse builds for the run. We werent even stacking might and we werent using any remotely valid strategies yet we were faster than a pug.

Its the players that make the difference. The builds and gear are completely overshadowed by proper strategies and group buffing.

Obviously in-depth knowledge of the dungeon layout and structure of each encounter provides an advantage, but your example doesn’t really provide a counterpoint to what I said about using “easier” gear actually making things more difficult for a group that is primarily centered around DPS-oriented builds.

In a way, you’re just shooting yourself in the foot with this argument, because saying that strategy and expertise triumphs over builds and gear just makes the elitist mentality that many carry behind the zerker meta all the more unjustified. Which one is it?

Yeah i admit that was a poor example. However I can expand on that example. That was basically the worst possible composition and builds yet it wasnt that bad for time. If we had actually used proper strategies and stacked buffs with those terrible builds we would have saved 15 minutes easily.

The gap between berserker and other builds is not enormous. Its trivial. Its all the other factors that make the gap.

If that’s the case, then I still don’t get why people make such a big deal about zerker/meta setups. If the build and gear aren’t that great of a factor, then why are so many people so snobbish about it? Most pug groups don’t go trying to shatter time records, so how come people emphasize having zerker gear/meta build groups, over simply asking for people with adequate dungeon knowledge? The two aren’t necessarily directly related to each other.

Because to go back to a beloved theme (not really beloved), the zerk meta problem is people not gameplay.

Never thought id be quoting and agreeing with Windsagio.

But yes this is basically what the problem is. Pugs are ignorant. You can try your best to fix ignorance and intolerance. But you probably wont get far in the grand scheme of things.

It is not a people problem or a game problem. It is simply not a problem. It is simply the way of life. If I can do something faster and more efficiently I am going to do it. The faster I get and the less mistakes I may and the better tricks I can figure out the more fun I am having. I do not have fun clumsily flailing my way through a dungeon for an hour.

spoj.9672:

Windsagio.1340:

Black Box.9312:

spoj.9672:

Black Box.9312:

spoj.9672:

Black Box.9312:

spoj.9672:

And both of those choices are bad. :P

The complaint that it “does it all” is completely unjustified. Anet intended for players to be able to do everything regardless of how they built their characters.

The real reason for the complaint is that people dont like the idea of a single optimum and because they cant turn a blind eye to it because of LFG descriptions. But news flash there is always a single optimum in any game. And thats something you are just going to have to accept and ignore if you dont like it.

Obviously there will always be some sort of meta, but the current problem we face with GW2 is that the efficiency gap between zerker builds and less damage-oriented builds is enormous. It’s rather evident that there’s a balancing fault when having 1 person bringing defensive gear to a zerker party actually makes a run take longer to complete and makes it more difficult at the same time. If anything, it should be a purely linear tradeoff.

This is completely false. The difference between a fully optimised group of experienced players utilising all buffs, portals and stealth and a pug group that has a mismatch of builds and doesnt utilise all tools at their disposal is enormous. The difference between a fully optimised group of experienced players utilising all buffs, portals and stealth and the same group using defensive gear but all the same buffs and strategies is very small.

We have proof of this. My guild did a no dodge fully defensive arah p2 a year back and we were deliberately very slow. Yes the entire run still only took 30 minutes. Which was faster than most pugs at the time. And we were certainly using worse builds for the run. We werent even stacking might and we werent using any remotely valid strategies yet we were faster than a pug.

Its the players that make the difference. The builds and gear are completely overshadowed by proper strategies and group buffing.

Obviously in-depth knowledge of the dungeon layout and structure of each encounter provides an advantage, but your example doesn’t really provide a counterpoint to what I said about using “easier” gear actually making things more difficult for a group that is primarily centered around DPS-oriented builds.

In a way, you’re just shooting yourself in the foot with this argument, because saying that strategy and expertise triumphs over builds and gear just makes the elitist mentality that many carry behind the zerker meta all the more unjustified. Which one is it?

Yeah i admit that was a poor example. However I can expand on that example. That was basically the worst possible composition and builds yet it wasnt that bad for time. If we had actually used proper strategies and stacked buffs with those terrible builds we would have saved 15 minutes easily.

The gap between berserker and other builds is not enormous. Its trivial. Its all the other factors that make the gap.

If that’s the case, then I still don’t get why people make such a big deal about zerker/meta setups. If the build and gear aren’t that great of a factor, then why are so many people so snobbish about it? Most pug groups don’t go trying to shatter time records, so how come people emphasize having zerker gear/meta build groups, over simply asking for people with adequate dungeon knowledge? The two aren’t necessarily directly related to each other.

Because to go back to a beloved theme (not really beloved), the zerk meta problem is people not gameplay.

Never thought id be quoting and agreeing with Windsagio.

But yes this is basically what the problem is. Pugs are ignorant. You can try your best to fix ignorance and intolerance. But you probably wont get far in the grand scheme of things.

No side had a monopoly on rationality in this case tho’ ><

Nike.2631:

No… That’s the fun for players who like to DPS. Believe it or not, all those players in other MMOs who run tanks, healers and CC masters…? Some of them actually enjoy THAT and GW2 basically takes a big dump on those customers at every turn.

NikeEU.7690:

If only anet had told us that the game would have active combat. If only they told us ahead of time all characters would be DPS. If only they told us ahead of launch that there would not be any dedicated “tanks, healers and CC masters.”

If only.

OH WAIT..

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/guild-wars-2-has-no-healers-or-tanks

Please reply with apologies only.

Hmm. I’d have thought “Control” and “CC master” would be synonymous without me having to spell it out – especially for someone who is basically a bright person when they don’t want to just pick a fight. …Of course Control has worked out so well as a point in the GW2 triangle so far that is HAS been completely redesigned. So lets maybe stick to articles a little closer to demonstrable reality rather than pre-launch hype? And for the most part boosting DPS by mutual/cross buffing gets called “Support” just so we can pretend it exists.

And I’m on record as saying the entire tank role is an atrocity of bad AI design enshrined by equally bad habit so really, not a point I’m gonna tussle over.

Do you see me saying anything here about the psychology of large player bases that you have an actual dispute with? We’re not all dps-mongers. Honest. We’re not. And while ArenaNet could just write off that 30%-or-so I think they’d rather we stuck around and gave them money.

Most of the time, when I get on a tear about Zerker it’s NOT to make all Zerker parties manned by skilled players fail (or cease to be a thing). Its to make the shlubs who think they are hardkore mastah’ killahs face plant more often because frankly like every other role 90% the people playing it aren’t the top ten percent. DPS as a role just tends to let to tell yourself you’re so amazing because the game is very, very bad about testing that.

Fenrir.3609:

Yeah, wanting to make changes to gameplay/mechanics in order to teach bads who wear zerk gear a lesson doesn’t seem like the best idea in the world.

Raising the challenge/threat/danger level to where that happens more often than it does now seems like a GREAT idea to me. And that’s not just the spite talking .

Nike.2631:

Fenrir.3609:

Yeah, wanting to make changes to gameplay/mechanics in order to teach bads who wear zerk gear a lesson doesn’t seem like the best idea in the world.

Raising the challenge/threat/danger level to where that happens more often than it does now seems like a GREAT idea to me. And that’s not just the spite talking .

Yeah it sounds like a great idea, when done by adding new challenging content.

Content which pushes active defense and group synergy within the current combat mechanic framework, not which artificially creates faux challenge by whacking in randomness and unavoidable damage just to shaft those “filthy zerkers!!!”.

Nike.2631:

Nike.2631:

No… That’s the fun for players who like to DPS. Believe it or not, all those players in other MMOs who run tanks, healers and CC masters…? Some of them actually enjoy THAT and GW2 basically takes a big dump on those customers at every turn.

NikeEU.7690:

If only anet had told us that the game would have active combat. If only they told us ahead of time all characters would be DPS. If only they told us ahead of launch that there would not be any dedicated “tanks, healers and CC masters.”

If only.

OH WAIT..

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/guild-wars-2-has-no-healers-or-tanks

Please reply with apologies only.

Hmm. I’d have thought “Control” and “CC master” would be synonymous without me having to spell it out – especially for someone who is basically a bright person when they don’t want to just pick a fight. …Of course Control has worked out so well as a point in the GW2 triangle so far that is HAS been completely redesigned. So lets maybe stick to articles a little closer to demonstrable reality rather than pre-launch hype? And for the most part boosting DPS by mutual/cross buffing gets called “Support” just so we can pretend it exists.

Hahaha you realize Control is the most overpowered mechanic in PvE right now right? I don’t know what kind of groups you play in, but in organized groups of experienced players Control is so overwhelmingly powerful it defines the entire tactical approach we take.

Secondly, I know you chose to ignore it but the message of that article is crystal clear: no one is a “dedicated control player.” Everyone is a “fighter” who also brings support and control.

Third, your definition of “support” is insanely narrow and not even accurate. Yes, offensive buffing is support. So is all the defensive buffing and projectile defenses we bring. Stealth and blinds are also support, which our teams are tailored to bring.

Our “meta” groups bring DPS, Support (of all varieties) and overload on Control; we just divide up the duties among the 5 of us and don’t mandate any single character dedicate to a single role. You can admit it if you are honest enough: we are playing the game as it was designed to be played. It is you, the person who advocates for dedicated support, healer, tank, control roles that is trying to upset the apple cart and ruin a good thing.

Again, reply only with apologies.

cranos.5913:

Neox.3497:

cranos.5913:

Neox.3497:

cranos.5913:

Neox.3497:

Nike.2631:

If (for example) the amount of damage absorbed by Aegis scaled with your toughness (making it an active stat instead of an entirely passive one), you’d see people considering where and how much Toughness they can squeeze into their build without sacrificing too much damage.

Or even better make the amount of damage absorbed by Aegis scale with the thoughness of the person who gave it to you.

I don’t get why ppl want to force guardian in a pure support role. The fun of GW2 is that everyone can DPS and has their unique class abilities to provide support/control to the fight. Get rid of aegis sure, why not scale the amount of condi removal on healing power? Cleric guardian meta… oh wait no people would just swap to mesmer.

You want guardians to stop “carrying” their group with blocks? Add more than 3 attacks on a boss. Problem solved without having to destroy a class in the process.

Why force? You can still have guards that deal damage. The problem is about STATS. Going for “support” stats doesn’t work because there are no “support” stats.
Additionally they could add elite specs for other professions that have more aegis.
And if they change that and you think guard would be UP they could also beef up the guardian damage a bit for compensation.

Why bother with support stats at all? Does it matter so much that it says knights instead of berserker on your gear? Do we really have to carry 5 ascended armors and a myriad of ascended weapons in our 160 slot inventory because you want fake diversity that won’t even change gameplay in the first place?

Then why have STATS at all? Really with what you said GW2 (PvE) should only have 1 combination of stats.
I don’t want another stat to be the new meta I want MULTIPLE stats on the same class be the “meta” not ONE for ALL classes.
You could have Guardians that play zerker and deal massive damage (maybe a bit less than an ele but that’s life) and Guardians that go support.
Both would also have different skills and traits since the support build wouldn’t be that effective anymore on the zerker stat guard.

“a little bit less that ele but that’s life”. The reason you don’t stack just 1 highest DPS class is because all classes currently offer unique utility. Make this utility tied to useless gear and all this would do is force guardian out of the meta and throwing them on the pile of useless classes like necro. Make all support tied to gear and you basically go back towards trinity with forced support only classes in the meta.

Basically you’re saying I want to play support only and everyone should be forced to play my way in pve, wvw and spvp.

WTF? You need the aegis otherwise you die. Or why do people want a guard in their group? I mean why don’t they simply take another ele or what ever deals more damage right now???

That’s part of the reason I think the break bar is going to matter a lot; between ‘usually unbreakable’ bosses, the lack of a free CC at the start, and the uneven value of control skills for depletion will be a big deal.

The ‘zerk DPS meta’ problem that gets complained about boils down to the fact that some players take content they’re familiar with and run it with a farming mentality. There’s nothing wrong with what they’re doing, but sometimes there are conflicts between them and players who want to take a different approach to content. In reality, these things happen in every MMO. As a player, you just have to be sensible and mature and not join groups whose playstyle conflicts with your own.

There is also a mechanical problem at work, but that’s more complicated than it’s made out to be. Ultimately, you will not fix the problem of one set of gear being ‘forced’ upon people who care about efficiency by forcing a different set of gear.

One solution would be to just remove every stat spread except celestial from the game, but I imagine that that would be unpalatable to many. None of the better solutions I can think of are practical, though.

Nike.2631:

Hmm. I’d have thought “Control” and “CC master” would be synonymous without me having to spell it out – especially for someone who is basically a bright person when they don’t want to just pick a fight. …Of course Control has worked out so well as a point in the GW2 triangle so far that is HAS been completely redesigned. So lets maybe stick to articles a little closer to demonstrable reality rather than pre-launch hype? And for the most part boosting DPS by mutual/cross buffing gets called “Support” just so we can pretend it exists.

Important skills used in the “meta” that DO NOT deal direct damage:

Skills that outright buff character stats, like Banners and Ranger spirits

Effects that grant might, fire fields, blast finishers, traits, weapon skills, utilities etc, like Phalanx Strength and Persisting Flames traits

Effects that remove conditions, preferably from the entire party, like Pure of Voice trait, Save Yourselves shout, Healing Spring skill etc

Projectile Reflection skills, and to some extend projectile absorption skills, like Wall of Reflection.

Spreading Weakness on Foes is important, blasting poison fields, or using skills like Stoning (at higher Fractal levels)

Applying Blindness on groups of mobs works wonders versus trash mobs, using skills like Smoke Screen and Black Powder, keeping the pressure OFF your allies

Stealth can be used to bypass annoying fights and save team mates that are about to be killed. Blasting smoke fields and skills like Shadow Refugee

Deep Freeze is one of the most widely used Control skills in the game, there is a reason why. Interrupting trash mobs with skills like Headshot is also important

Those are all ways to Support your party and Control your foes. Having as many of the above is far more important than being in Berserker gear. Classes that offer little of the above, like Necromancers are excluded from meta dungeon groups, classes that offer limited amounts of the above, or are outclassed by some others, are used less and less in meta groups, like Mesmers, Engineers and Rangers.

The professions that offer the most out of the above, AND in superior quality/quantity than others are the true meta professions:
Elementalist, Guardian, Thief, Warrior

IT has next to nothing to do about their ability to do damage. If damage is the secondary factor in picking the “meta” professions then the whole “this game is only DPS” argument is invalid.

NikeEU.7690:

Hahaha you realize Control is the most overpowered mechanic in PvE right now right?

If you define PvE as dungeons and nothing but, sure.

I don’t know what kind of groups you play in, but in organized groups of experienced players Control is so overwhelmingly powerful it defines the entire tactical approach we take.

It’s always nice to hear about the weather up on Mount Olympus. Down here in the scrublands things are maybe a bit different .

Secondly, I know you chose to ignore it but the message of that article is crystal clear: no one is a “dedicated control player.” Everyone is a “fighter” who also brings support and control.

And my message equally ignored was “Hey, it’s be nice if I COULD focus more on non-DPS aspects and not get spit on.” “Everyone is a fighter” only appeals to “fighters”.

Third, your definition of “support” is insanely narrow and not even accurate.

And clearly you didn’t understand me because (possibly because of the thin air up on the peak of awesomeness from which you survey the lowly) when I was pointing out might stacking ISN’T support, its DPS. We agree completely on the elements that do make up support. Which again probably would have been clear if you had any goal other than picking a fight.

Our “meta” groups bring DPS, Support (of all varieties) and overload on Control; we just divide up the duties among the 5 of us and don’t mandate any single character dedicate to a single role. You can admit it if you are honest enough: we are playing the game as it was designed to be played.

I agree you are playing the game excellently as it in fact IS. I can also point out plenty of cases where the game that IS is not what it was designed to be. And in a thread about changes, the status quo is not intrinsically better than all proposals (even if 90% of proposals ate not the top ten percent either …)

It is you, the person who advocates for dedicated support, healer, tank, control roles that is trying to upset the apple cart and ruin a good thing.

I am the person saying they clearly want to make control and support more of a thing you can focus on and I think arranging things so specialists deliver enough benefit that they could be one more tool in the toolbox of the elite is building on and adding to the goodness of the good thing we have now.

Again, reply only with apologies.

You seem to have the written equivalent of a verbal tic going. You might want to look into a writing coach. Or maybe get a proofreader. Its not nearly as clever as you think it is.

Most games have ‘tank’ ‘healer’ and ‘dps’ stat allocations. This game has what like.. 26 or so last I counted? In every other game you want to clear though content as fast as possible too. Zerker (Assassin) is just the 3 dps stats that all scale better off each other. If you want more than just power based builds you’re going to need more dps oriented stats that scale with one another instead of all the useless allocations they added that only serve as wierd nieche wvw builds (that most pro groups dont even use) or resurface as amulets (with different coeficients) in spvp. You want to ‘fix’ zerker? Get rid of all the useless stat allocations so all these people dont think they’re somehow being ‘forced’ into it.

Good groups in other games also minimize the amount of healers needed to beat an encounter to make room for more dps. They minimize amounts of tanks needed using dps specs with a shield or speed running tanks using a mix of dps gear for more aggro control. They have hybrid healers so they can add dps when healing isnt needed. Those arent even really ‘intended’ roles in those games but they’re the most efficient way to get through content fastest. This game does away with that and gives all the support/control to everyone in the group via traits and skills. Its a better system.

Games been out 3 years. Stuff that used to take 30min-1hr (for some maybe even more) now takes 5 mins because we’re doing content we’ve mastered and had nothing else to do that makes us steer away from it. You could go back and solo bosses (I’m talking stuff at your own lvl too, not underlvled stuff) just like in GW2 but nobody cared because they’d all moved on to the next new thing.

These threads are nonsense.

If you define PvE as dungeons and nothing but, sure.

in dungeons it allows you to stunlock bosses, in open world they throttle up the defiant stacks up to a ridiculous amount so that you can’t stunlock bosses.

so yeah, control is pretty kitten strong. in fact the whole meta is anchored around it right now – you shut down bosses with co-ordinated CC and burst them without interruption.

Nike.2631:

I am the person saying they clearly want to make control and support more of a thing you can focus on and I think arranging things so specialists deliver enough benefit that they could be one more tool in the toolbox of the elite is building on and adding to the goodness of the good thing we have now.

Support and control currently are the definition of the meta. “Specialists” already exist and are the bedrock of a meta composition today.

maha.7902:

so yeah, control is pretty kitten strong. in fact the whole meta is anchored around it right now – you shut down bosses with co-ordinated CC and burst them without interruption.

You say “right now”. Let me ask our various masters of mastery-ness:

Has the Dungeon meta-game meaningfully changed in the last 2 years?

CrAcKeDmUfFiN.9402:

Support and control currently are the definition of the meta. “Specialists” already exist and are the bedrock of a meta composition today.

I’ll bite. Walk me through what a “Support Specialist” and a “Control Specialist” look like.

Nike.2631:

maha.7902:

so yeah, control is pretty kitten strong. in fact the whole meta is anchored around it right now – you shut down bosses with co-ordinated CC and burst them without interruption.

You say “right now”. Let me ask our various masters of mastery-ness:

Has the Dungeon meta-game meaningfully changed in the last 2 years?

Nike.2631:

NikeEU.7690:

Hahaha you realize Control is the most overpowered mechanic in PvE right now right?

If you define PvE as dungeons and nothing but, sure.

I don’t know what kind of groups you play in, but in organized groups of experienced players Control is so overwhelmingly powerful it defines the entire tactical approach we take.

It’s always nice to hear about the weather up on Mount Olympus. Down here in the scrublands things are maybe a bit different .

Secondly, I know you chose to ignore it but the message of that article is crystal clear: no one is a “dedicated control player.” Everyone is a “fighter” who also brings support and control.

And my message equally ignored was “Hey, it’s be nice if I COULD focus more on non-DPS aspects and not get spit on.” “Everyone is a fighter” only appeals to “fighters”.

Third, your definition of “support” is insanely narrow and not even accurate.

And clearly you didn’t understand me because (possibly because of the thin air up on the peak of awesomeness from which you survey the lowly) when I was pointing out might stacking ISN’T support, its DPS. We agree completely on the elements that do make up support. Which again probably would have been clear if you had any goal other than picking a fight.

Our “meta” groups bring DPS, Support (of all varieties) and overload on Control; we just divide up the duties among the 5 of us and don’t mandate any single character dedicate to a single role. You can admit it if you are honest enough: we are playing the game as it was designed to be played.

I agree you are playing the game excellently as it in fact IS. I can also point out plenty of cases where the game that IS is not what it was designed to be. And in a thread about changes, the status quo is not intrinsically better than all proposals (even if 90% of proposals ate not the top ten percent either …)

It is you, the person who advocates for dedicated support, healer, tank, control roles that is trying to upset the apple cart and ruin a good thing.

I am the person saying they clearly want to make control and support more of a thing you can focus on and I think arranging things so specialists deliver enough benefit that they could be one more tool in the toolbox of the elite is building on and adding to the goodness of the good thing we have now.

Again, reply only with apologies.

You seem to have the written equivalent of a verbal tic going. You might want to look into a writing coach. Or maybe get a proofreader. Its not nearly as clever as you think it is.

You keep trying to defend yourself. I linked the article. It’s as clear as day there was never to be dedicated control or support roles, only a mix of the three. Which is what we have. Instead of replying line by line with insults and polemic, just take a deep breath and understand the point I’m making is correct and the original comment you made I responded to is wrong. Simple as that.

Zerk is not the problem. It is the solution. The problem is how to you make sure people don’t ‘gear’ their way through encounters. There should be no set of gear that lets you ‘faceroll’ in an MMO. And by making the gear with the least defensive stats most useful – you help prevent this.

Other sets of gear – like sinster – which are all offensive as the best is fine as well. Defensive gear sets work fine in WvW and PvP because you are fighting human opponets. But AI’s aren’t as advanced – if you buff defensive gears you will get slow faceroll style dungeons.

Let’s be real about this. There are ALOT of gamers who aren’t good – and want to be able to GEAR their way through encounters. This is why they dislike the Zerk meta. Hey if xyz gear combination let me face roll this dungeon I could spend days collecting that combination – and then face roll it! Hooray.

Grinders like that – this game is not supposed to appeal to be for grinders. Plenty of other MMOs go with that approach. I applaud GW2 for trying a different one. We want GW2 to be like Bloodborne not baseball simulator 2014.

Nike.2631:

maha.7902:

so yeah, control is pretty kitten strong. in fact the whole meta is anchored around it right now – you shut down bosses with co-ordinated CC and burst them without interruption.

You say “right now”. Let me ask our various masters of mastery-ness:

Has the Dungeon meta-game meaningfully changed in the last 2 years?

CrAcKeDmUfFiN.9402:

Support and control currently are the definition of the meta. “Specialists” already exist and are the bedrock of a meta composition today.

I’ll bite. Walk me through what a “Support Specialist” and a “Control Specialist” look like.

Is a Phalanx Strength Warrior not a specialist? Warrior drops from mid-tier damage to dead last to provide groupwide might and banners. Or is that not significant enough because they’re still wearing berserker’s gear?

Nike.2631:

Has the Dungeon meta-game meaningfully changed in the last 2 years?

Yeah, in May of 2013 most dungeon teams were 4 warriors 1 mesmer. Some groups were experimenting with using Elementalists and Thieves for DPS and stealth but “heavies only” was extremely common especially at the pug level.

I’ll bite. Walk me through what a “Support Specialist” and a “Control Specialist” look like.

Right now, the meta guardian build is 45005 and specs into Virtues for support. They focus their utility kills on defense with things like Wall of Reflect and Purging Flames rather than focusing on personal DPS by running a 66200 or 66002 build with Bane Signet for max DPS.

Control as a role in the speed run meta is divided between Elementalist and Thief as specialists. The thief equips pistol offhand to strip defiant stacks quickly and the elementalist delivers a 5 second long CC with Deep Freeze. This is the core interaction at the heart of the dungeon and fractal speed clear meta. Thief sets them up, ele knocks them down.

Black Box.9312:

spoj.9672:

Yeah i admit that was a poor example. However I can expand on that example. That was basically the worst possible composition and builds yet it wasnt that bad for time. If we had actually used proper strategies and stacked buffs with those terrible builds we would have saved 15 minutes easily.

The gap between berserker and other builds is not enormous. Its trivial. Its all the other factors that make the gap.

If that’s the case, then I still don’t get why people make such a big deal about zerker/meta setups. If the build and gear aren’t that great of a factor, then why are so many people so snobbish about it? Most pug groups don’t go trying to shatter time records, so how come people emphasize having zerker gear/meta build groups, over simply asking for people with adequate dungeon knowledge? The two aren’t necessarily directly related to each other.

Gear and AP are the common criteria because they can be checked/verified before the dungeon starts. Proper use of active skills and knowledge cannot be.

NikeEU.7690:

You keep trying to defend yourself. I linked the article. It’s as clear as day there was never to be dedicated control or support roles, only a mix of the three. Which is what we have. Instead of replying line by line with insults and polemic, just take a deep breath and understand the point I’m making is correct and the original comment you made I responded to is wrong. Simple as that.

Look. Fact is I do have a lot of respect for your proficiency as a player (and your taste un screen names ). That does NOT directly map to proficiency as a designer, which is what I do for a living and it colors my perspective. So if you’re willing to not sit there and put bullcrap stingers on the end of you posts trying to kill discussion before it starts, I’m happy to talk with you.

Still ignored, so I’ll try again~

“Hey, it’s be nice if I COULD focus more on non-DPS aspects and not get spit on.” “Everyone is a fighter” only appeals to “fighters”.

The dungeon-meta is HIDEOUSLY stagnant (Edit: clarification – at the Pug level). It also pushes out whole categories of player-mindset that the game would like to retain. They’re trying to counter that on the player side with more options for support and for control oriented characters. I assume you’re able to skim the previews and see which way the wind is blowing.

What’s your take on the new E-specs in the dungeon environment? Reaper adds a strong melee component to the Necromancer toolbox – do you see anything about the ne E-Spec that’s going to make Reapers more desirable than Necros in pre-made high-skill dungeon groups? Yes, this may sound like a sidebar, but to me it directly relates to the dominance of Zerker in that mode and whether they will or even should make systemic changes that affect old content.

NikeEU.7690:

Yeah, in May of 2013 most dungeon teams were 4 warriors 1 mesmer. Some groups were experimenting with using Elementalists and Thieves for DPS and stealth but “heavies only” was extremely common especially at the pug level.

Excellent. This maps to my experience. What’s changed?

Right now, the meta guardian build is 45005 and specs into Virtues for support. They focus their utility kills on defense with things like Wall of Reflect and Purging Flames rather than focusing on personal DPS by running a 66200 or 66002 build with Bane Signet for max DPS.

Heh. I feel like such a trendsetter (that is to say the support guardian you’re describing is within a couple points of how I ran for years).

Control as a role in the speed run meta is divided between Elementalist and Thief as specialists. The thief equips pistol offhand to strip defiant stacks quickly and the elementalist delivers a 5 second long CC with Deep Freeze. This is the core interaction at the heart of the dungeon and fractal speed clear meta. Thief sets them up, ele knocks them down.

So, parallel questions – are there traits you could take to further emphasize that sequence that you typically don’t? (weapon cooldown traits maybe?)

What bonuses would armor have to offer to make you take that theoretical stat bundle over Zerker? An alacrity stat maybe?

CrAcKeDmUfFiN.9402:

Is a Phalanx Strength Warrior not a specialist? Warrior drops from mid-tier damage to dead last to provide groupwide might and banners. Or is that not significant enough because they’re still wearing berserker’s gear?

Quite the opposite – the problem is that even when you’re committing to Support, there’s not a better choice than Zerker.

Maybe if Giver’s armor/jewelry had the boon duration stat the points OBVIOUSLY should be generating (1% per ten stat points as seen in several trait lines) instead of being castrated at 1% per piece, maybe the “zerker meta” would actually resolve itself…

Nike.2631:

CrAcKeDmUfFiN.9402:

Is a Phalanx Strength Warrior not a specialist? Warrior drops from mid-tier damage to dead last to provide groupwide might and banners. Or is that not significant enough because they’re still wearing berserker’s gear?

Quite the opposite – the problem is that even when you’re committing to Support, there’s not a better choice than Zerker.

Maybe if Giver’s armor/jewelry had the boon duration stat the points OBVIOUSLY should be generating (1% per ten stat points as seen in several trait lines) instead of being castrated at 1% per piece, maybe the “zerker meta” would actually resolve itself…

It’s not that there’s a “not a better choice than Zerker” exactly. The reality is that when you are committing to support your allies, that the stats on your armor don’t really make a difference. In that regard, Phalanx Strength is actually an exception because you need to be critting in order to generate might, but the point remains.

If anything, one could easily make the argument that the barrier to entry being so low allows for far more build diversity than the anti berserker crowd would lead you to believe. If I, today, want to run a dps warrior or a phalanx warrior (giving differing roles and playstyles), I only need to swap out utilities and traits. I’m not pidgeonholed into a build simply because of the gold cost associated with making a new set of gear to run a slightly different build.

There’s really not much that the stats on your armor do for you, and that’s a pretty nice way to go. At the end of the day, you get a more significant change in how a class “feels” by swapping weapons than you do from equipping a different set of stats on your armor. Some of us happen to like that about the game today, allowing for easy changes in our playstyles without carrying around 3-4 sets of gear. We can all cry for diversity for diversity’s sake, but an arbitrary number in your hero panel is a really unimaginative and ultimately unsatisfying way to do it.

NikeEU.7690:

If only anet had told us that the game would have active combat. If only they told us ahead of time all characters would be DPS. If only they told us ahead of launch that there would not be any dedicated “tanks, healers and CC masters.”

If only.

OH WAIT..

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/guild-wars-2-has-no-healers-or-tanks

Please reply with apologies only.

Then were is my control gear or support gear?

Nike.2631:

Maybe if Giver’s armor/jewelry had the boon duration stat the points OBVIOUSLY should be generating (1% per ten stat points as seen in several trait lines) instead of being castrated at 1% per piece, maybe the “zerker meta” would actually resolve itself…

And then what? Full Giver´s meta? 3x Giver´s 2x Berserker´s group comps? Yeah, that´ll be more fun for everybody for sure…

Why don´t you people understand that bluntly making different gear prefixes “better” or “more viable” wont change anything?
There will always be most optimal strategies, team comps, builds and associated stat sets and the “meta” (a term being grossly misused in this context by some people here) will always settle around this optimum eventually.

Please, get over it already and let the devs do their job.

Skoigoth.9238:

Why don´t you people understand that bluntly making different gear prefixes “better” or “more viable” wont change anything?
There will always be most optimal strategies, team comps, builds and associated stat sets and the “meta” (a term being grossly misused in this context by some people here) will always settle around this optimum eventually.

And this is a perfect example of how developer and player perspectives differ. (Many)players WANT there to be a best choice so they can take it. Every time I’m in game and I hear some new player ask “what’s the best class?” I throw up in my mouth just a little… because if there is a right answer to that question the designer has done something HORIBLY WRONG. If that best answer remains best across a large range of activities it just gets more wrong.

Please, get over it already and let the devs do their job.

This may come as a shock to you, but creating a system where there are multiple similarly desirable solutions IS THE JOB. The game delivers on this principle well in some places and much, much less so in others.

Nike.2631:

And this is a perfect example of how developer and player perspectives differ. (Many)players WANT there to be a best choice so they can take it. Every time I’m in game and I hear some new player ask “what’s the best class?” I throw up in my mouth just a little… because if there is a right answer to that question the designer has done something HORIBLY WRONG. If that best answer remains best across a large range of activities it just gets more wrong.

So you don´t like min-maxing? Fine, don´t do it then. There are plenty of people out there who don´t care about being efficient either you can play with.
Besides that, the argument “if there is only one correct answer to all problems something is wrong” doesn´t apply to GW2´s current state at all. For starters, dungeons/fractals only make up a very, very small portion of GW2´s content. That´s pretty much the only place where “the zerker meta” even exists and regardless of that you can still complete all dungeons and fractals while using any kind of gear you want just fine.

Nike.2631:

Please, get over it already and let the devs do their job.

This may come as a shock to you, but creating a system where there are multiple similarly desirable solutions IS THE JOB. The game delivers on this principle well in some places and much, much less so in others.

Why should I be shocked? What do you even mean? You think a certain aspect of GW2´s core game design is flawed and the devs need to address it. I don´t.

Skoigoth.9238:

Nike.2631:

Maybe if Giver’s armor/jewelry had the boon duration stat the points OBVIOUSLY should be generating (1% per ten stat points as seen in several trait lines) instead of being castrated at 1% per piece, maybe the “zerker meta” would actually resolve itself…

And then what? Full Giver´s meta? 3x Giver´s 2x Berserker´s group comps? Yeah, that´ll be more fun for everybody for sure…

I would love to see something like 1x Sinister, 2x Givers and 2x Berserkers would be so much better. ESPECIALLY if a single profession could do 2 or more of the roles.
As I said earlier a solution would be by adding some more scaling stuff to stats for boons and conditions.
Examples (the default numbers might have to be reduced for that):
Protection – Scales with Toughness
Retaliation – Scales with Vitality instead of Power
Vulnerability – Scales with Condition Damage

Maybe even add functions to skills like reduced cooldown with stat X or increased size with stat Y.

This stuff is quite complicated but could add so much more variaty. Which I think many would welcome.

Hume.2876:

Let’s be real about this. There are ALOT of gamers who aren’t good – and want to be able to GEAR their way through encounters. This is why they dislike the Zerk meta. Hey if xyz gear combination let me face roll this dungeon I could spend days collecting that combination – and then face roll it! Hooray.

That is not the reason that people complain about the zerk meta. Could you perhaps try not insulting every single person who disagrees with you?

Things like these are closer to the truth about why people complain about the ‘zerk meta’:

1. Conflicts with other players due to differences in playstyle (new players joining high-end farm groups by mistake, that sort of thing).
2. People who don’t like the proliferation of ‘trap’ gear that has little use outside of WvW.
3. People watching videos of zerk/meta groups that make content look easy and coming away with the conclusion that the content is easy due to zerk/meta and not because they were watching skilled players who had done the same thing a hundred times before.

As for framing things as a deliberate choice to solve a problem, I’m fairly certain that preventing players from outlevelling and outgearing content was handled via level adjustments and by being very careful not to introduce too many new gear tiers with better stats than what was available before. Not by making zerker gear the most valuable gear for dungeons.

evilunderling.9265:

1. People watching videos of zerk/meta groups that make content look easy and coming away with the conclusion that the content is easy due to zerk/meta and not because they were watching skilled players who had done the same thing a hundred times before.

That reminds me of a guy who did a dungeon and failed at a boss. He and his friend change to zerk and suddenly they were able to kill the boss.

Jana.6831:

EcoRI.9273:

So when you read LFGS “zerker exp only” it translates into “I want as much gold as possible on my limited play time, don’t join if you are going to slow me down.”

My solution: Along with the 24 hour time range/gate that is already in place, create a 30 minute time range where you can only earn 1 dungeon path reward and make the dungeon reward 5g.
What this does is it makes it so speed does not equal more reward.

So you rather want to reward "Hurr Durr, I’m going to join a “Zerker only” party with my nomads gear to troll them" -people?

Actually yes. I interpret anet’s design philsophy as one where they want to promote players to be friendly and not toxic. If we remove speed = more reward from deungeons, i believe there will be less zerker only elitism in lfgs. And if lfg was more friendly towards casual players and beginners we can actually see the dunegon community grow at an alarming rate and in which case anet might want to support dungeons more.

Can we just stop all this nerf zerk talk, dont punish old players because new ones are “forced” to go zerk if they want to join a party that doesnt suck and can clear dungeons fast.

Here is a good idea i heard if you want to play around with stats then make the ascended armor have selectable stats or make legendary armor but force the use of the current asc armor in the process.

If you do this then all of my problems go away since i have 2 asc zerk light armors full set 1 med 1 heavy you can imagine how much gold this is.

MarkoNS.3261:

Can we just stop all this nerf zerk talk, dont punish old players because new ones are “forced” to go zerk if they want to join a party that doesnt suck and can clear dungeons fast.

The proper discussion isn’t about punishing anyone, it’s about making the game mechanics as well-balanced as possible.

~~~

As I’ve said before, there are a large number of things on the HOT horizon that could strongly effect the preferred playstyle.

MarkoNS.3261:

Can we just stop all this nerf zerk talk, dont punish old players because new ones are “forced” to go zerk if they want to join a party that doesnt suck and can clear dungeons fast.

It’s not about making zerk kitten but making other stat combinations better and more viable.

Maybe instead of asking how to fix “Zerker”, we should be looking what does “Zerker” do? For me;

• “Zerker” is a stat combination that enhances offensive active gameplay

So were are the stat combinations that enhances defensive & supportive active gameplay?

(Analysis excluding Boon & Condition duration as these enhance offensive, defensive & supportive gameplay & are typically not found on gear)

And I’m unable to find any. The main reason for me is active defensive & support is extremely independent of passive stats. We are able to improve the power level of offensive skills (damage) but not defensive & supportive skills excluding healing (which scales poorly in comparison to offensive stats).

So much of active defend & supportive skills are tied into the boon, condition & control system which is about timing of application, application amount (stacks) & effect duration (boon/condition). Again passive stat bar Healing Power are unable to enhance the effects in this system.

The other side of active defend & support are;

• Blocks (Phys dmg & condi application)
• Immune (Phys, Condi & Crit)
• Invulnerability (All dmg, not sure about existing conditions)
• Dodge (Phys dmg & condi application)
• Evades (Phys dmg & condi application)
• Reflects (Projectiles only)
• Control effects (Kiting, foe disables)

Which again passive stats are unable to enhance these effects.

So just looking at a power level for these effects you receive the same benefit no matter if your “Zerker” or anyone stat combination. This works great for players that love a more DPS focused gameplay but starts to feel very excluding for all other players that like a more defensive, supportive or control focused gameplay.

What this does with regard to PvE is turn all other stat combinations into training wheels. It turn rewards with these stats into vendor or salvaging goods (Unrewarding rewards). It also alienates PvE from sPvP & WvW.

What I would be looking at is not changing “Zerker” but to somehow to allow passive stats to also enhance active defensive & supportive gameplay

Will this effect “Zerker”, Yes. It shouldn’t take away any of the current skills & effects you can use & apply but your defensive, support & control skills & effects will no longer be as powerful as defensive or supportive stat-ed players.

(Pleased note this analysis was done primarily looking at PvE as we don’t seem to get the same “Zerker” issues is sPvP & WvW game modes. This was also primarily looking at passive stat & skills & effects interaction excluding encounter design.)

Nike.2631:

This may come as a shock to you, but creating a system where there are multiple similarly desirable solutions IS THE JOB. The game delivers on this principle well in some places and much, much less so in others.

Anet created 8 professions with different play styles. Each brings some things to the table that are the same and some that are different. They provided traits that could be used to buff one way of playing over another, as well as utility skills and weapon choices that could be switched up to provide diversity on a situational basis. They even provided various gear options along the survival/damage continuum for various players to find their own comfort level.

What they didn’t provide was a way to slot more passive defense and allow those players to kill mobs as efficiently as those who slot passive offense. No game does that. What they also didn’t do is provide a need for dedicated roles, especially dedicated roles that are rooted in gear stats. That was by design, and works fine imo.

Neox.3497:

MarkoNS.3261:

Can we just stop all this nerf zerk talk, dont punish old players because new ones are “forced” to go zerk if they want to join a party that doesnt suck and can clear dungeons fast.

It’s not about making zerk kitten but making other stat combinations better and more viable.

The only set that could/should be as effective as zerker is sinister and of course really close assasin,rampager etc. Offensive sets with healing power could come close with proper set up and game support but it seems most forget that sustain is not really tied to stats. The only things that are not viable are conditions and partially healing power.

Would just like to see Condi builds increased in effectiveness and needed as equally as zerkers without nerfing zerkers. Condi builds need some help in pve. In PVP I think there is “slightly” to much condi clears in the game. I think they overshot the mark a bit by giving every class so much access to condi clears or group condi clears. I mean, condi classes are not in the meta at all when one ele coupled with a shoutbow or guardian can negate completely the output from any condi class for their group. It forces everyone into the cele/zerker arena and that is what kills build diversity as everyone runs the same builds with only slight variations.

Windsagio.1340:

MarkoNS.3261:

Can we just stop all this nerf zerk talk, dont punish old players because new ones are “forced” to go zerk if they want to join a party that doesnt suck and can clear dungeons fast.

The proper discussion isn’t about punishing anyone, it’s about making the game mechanics as well-balanced as possible.

~~~

As I’ve said before, there are a large number of things on the HOT horizon that could strongly effect the preferred playstyle.

That is just your opinion also this “preferred playstyle” preferred by who , preferred game play by me is zerk and speed clears dont nerf my style just because people whine about theirs.

Sagat.3285:

Neox.3497:

MarkoNS.3261:

Can we just stop all this nerf zerk talk, dont punish old players because new ones are “forced” to go zerk if they want to join a party that doesnt suck and can clear dungeons fast.

It’s not about making zerk kitten but making other stat combinations better and more viable.

The only set that could/should be as effective as zerker is sinister and of course really close assasin,rampager etc. Offensive sets with healing power could come close with proper set up and game support but it seems most forget that sustain is not really tied to stats. The only things that are not viable are conditions and partially healing power.

In offensive capabilities but should Zerker stat combinations have the same power in defensive, supportive & control effects. Why should offensive passive be the only passives (Bar Healing Power) that effect our active gameplay?

If one warrior focuses on sword play & another focuses on shield work why would their blocking capability be the same. If your focused on offensive why should your defend, support & control be the same? Were is the same power level enhancement offensive gameplay gets for defensive, supportive & control gameplay. And for me & others this is the issues. I don’t care that you can kill foes faster but why can you defend, support & control the same.

Bezagron.7352:

Sagat.3285:

Neox.3497:

MarkoNS.3261:

Can we just stop all this nerf zerk talk, dont punish old players because new ones are “forced” to go zerk if they want to join a party that doesnt suck and can clear dungeons fast.

It’s not about making zerk kitten but making other stat combinations better and more viable.

The only set that could/should be as effective as zerker is sinister and of course really close assasin,rampager etc. Offensive sets with healing power could come close with proper set up and game support but it seems most forget that sustain is not really tied to stats. The only things that are not viable are conditions and partially healing power.

In offensive capabilities but should Zerker stat combinations have the same power in defensive, supportive & control effects. Why should offensive passive be the only passives (Bar Healing Power) that effect our active gameplay?

If one warrior focuses on sword play & another focuses on shield work why would their blocking capability be the same. If your focused on offensive why should your defend, support & control be the same? Were is the same power level enhancement offensive gameplay gets for defensive, supportive & control gameplay. And for me & others this is the issues. I don’t care that you can kill foes faster but why can you defend, support & control the same.

That’s not zerker that’s trait/skill design and the thread becomes invalid.

Bezagron.7352:

In offensive capabilities but should Zerker stat combinations have the same power in defensive, supportive & control effects. Why should offensive passive be the only passives (Bar Healing Power) that effect our active gameplay?

That’s a fallacy.

The active side of offense is determined by rotations and positioning. All players have the option to use their skills and position themselves.

Passive offensive stats determine some of the numbers in the damage calculation. They do not in any way comprise the sum total of offense and are not in any way active. Players have the option to choose more or less of these stats.

The active side of defense consists of recognition and timing in the use of active defensive skills, heals and positioning. All players have the option to use their skills and position themselves.

Passive defensive stats determine one number in the damage mitigation calculation, as well as buffing one’s heals, bolstering sustain and providing a larger buffer of health to absorb hits beyond one’s ability to mitigate. They are in no way active. Players have the option to choose more or less of these stats.

Offensive and defensive stats do the same kitten thing — passively boost their side of the damage/survival continuum. That’s all that consideration of their relative merits should be concerned with, not some mistaken argument about Power, etc. being active while Toughness, etc. are not.

Now, Might and Fury are actively generating offense, just as Aegis and Reflection represent active defense. Neither straight glass nor straight survival stats benefit either buff.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Black Box.9312:

spoj.9672:

Yeah i admit that was a poor example. However I can expand on that example. That was basically the worst possible composition and builds yet it wasnt that bad for time. If we had actually used proper strategies and stacked buffs with those terrible builds we would have saved 15 minutes easily.

The gap between berserker and other builds is not enormous. Its trivial. Its all the other factors that make the gap.

If that’s the case, then I still don’t get why people make such a big deal about zerker/meta setups. If the build and gear aren’t that great of a factor, then why are so many people so snobbish about it? Most pug groups don’t go trying to shatter time records, so how come people emphasize having zerker gear/meta build groups, over simply asking for people with adequate dungeon knowledge? The two aren’t necessarily directly related to each other.

Gear and AP are the common criteria because they can be checked/verified before the dungeon starts. Proper use of active skills and knowledge cannot be.

But my point is that neither of those are wholly representative of a player’s skill level and expertise. So what’s the point of having them judged as such?

Black Box.9312:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Black Box.9312:

spoj.9672:

Yeah i admit that was a poor example. However I can expand on that example. That was basically the worst possible composition and builds yet it wasnt that bad for time. If we had actually used proper strategies and stacked buffs with those terrible builds we would have saved 15 minutes easily.

The gap between berserker and other builds is not enormous. Its trivial. Its all the other factors that make the gap.

If that’s the case, then I still don’t get why people make such a big deal about zerker/meta setups. If the build and gear aren’t that great of a factor, then why are so many people so snobbish about it? Most pug groups don’t go trying to shatter time records, so how come people emphasize having zerker gear/meta build groups, over simply asking for people with adequate dungeon knowledge? The two aren’t necessarily directly related to each other.

Gear and AP are the common criteria because they can be checked/verified before the dungeon starts. Proper use of active skills and knowledge cannot be.

But my point is that neither of those are wholly representative of a player’s skill level and expertise. So what’s the point of having them judged as such?

They’re assuming there is a greater likelihood that a person wearing the gear they prefer thinks like them and wants the same things from a run that they do. It’s not a perfect indicator (or in the case of AP, not even a particularly accurate one). They’re substituting a criteria they can see before the run starts for one that can only be determined after seeing performance in one or more fights. Finally, people who are less than perfect themselves may not be the best judges of others’ skill. Anyone, though, can judge whether someone’s gear matches the LFG post or not.

Windsagio.1340:

MarkoNS.3261:

Can we just stop all this nerf zerk talk, dont punish old players because new ones are “forced” to go zerk if they want to join a party that doesnt suck and can clear dungeons fast.

The proper discussion isn’t about punishing anyone, it’s about making the game mechanics as well-balanced as possible.

~~~

As I’ve said before, there are a large number of things on the HOT horizon that could strongly effect the preferred playstyle.

Exactly, it’s about better game mechanics…

Focusing on gear is simply annoying, we should be looking at making more BUILDS viable through better content, this focus on gear is nothing but a scapegoat pointed out by people who don’t understand the game as a whole.

MattyP.6954:

Jelle.2807:

Nothing quite so elaborate is needed. All that needs to be done is for enemies to

A. Hit more frequently and have higher total dps, so you can’t use active defenses to avoid most of all damage (though still require active defenses to avoid a large part of it depending on profession)

B. Put party wide relatively unavoidable pressure damage, so some amount of party support and healing is necesary.

C. Not rally downed players on death. Rally on kill in pve has always been bad design and should be a pvp thing, it lets players go all out knowing they’ll rally anyway if they burst something down.

Edit: Also more enemies need cleave attacks to corner stacking dies horribly.

I generally agree with everything but C. With consistent pressure damage, it will be harder to sit in the fire to res an ally, and downed players will die faster. Removing the rally on kill mechanic kind of kills all of the play involved with downstate.

I don’t think making an encounter unsurvivable without X stat is good design unless it is a built in mechanic outside of the current system. See agony. If you had an encounter that required a ratio of X base health and Y healing, then the same people running optimal zerker builds would post must have X vitality and Y healing power and they would run the optimal setup required. What have you accomplished? You’ve created gear sets that are completely non viable. In the current system in a group environment everything is viable. Making a full zerker build or builds with similar passive defenses unviable in any encounter is a step backwards from what we have, if you can’t handle people bursting something down then I recommend you take aim at encounter mechanics that don’t make the potential viable builds any less than they currently are, which is everything.