Guild Wars 2

spoj.9672:

You do realise warrior does not have a one handed ranged weapon. So regardless of whether sword offhand has one ranged skill or not, you are using a melee set.

Yes but the way I can use the offhand is still determined by its skills itself. In a condition set I could use it as an opener and as a skill I can use when I have to disengage for a bit.

Tim.6450:

Let’s say I remove forcefull greatsword and phalanx strength?What impact would that have on the way I play this build? Nearly zero impact. I will just have less might application (both personal and aoe) .

So you are claiming that removing Phalanx Strength from a Phalanx Strength build would have no impact on the intended playstyle of that build. Well… what can I say?

Stop trying to twist arguments of others into yours by compulsively turning them upside down. I can´t take you serious that way.

Skoigoth.9238:

Tim.6450:

Let’s say I remove forcefull greatsword and phalanx strength?What impact would that have on the way I play this build? Nearly zero impact. I will just have less might application (both personal and aoe) .

So you are claiming that removing Phalanx Strength from a Phalanx Strength build would have no impact on the intended playstyle of that build. Well… what can I say?

Stop trying to twist arguments of others into yours by compulsively turning them upside down. I can´t take you serious that way.

A phalanx build without precision is almost (give or take a few percents) the same as phalanx build without Phalanx Strength because you have barely any might gain to Phalanx Strength proc off.

@Tim: I don´t even understand why you bring this up, but as a Warrior you can easily get up to 50-60% crit chance without having a single point of precision on your gear through Fury, Banner of Discipline, Signet of Fury and Truffle Steak/Steak and Asparagus Food, all of which are staples of most PvE Warrior builds.

Besides that, I am well aware that different stat sets are differently effective when used in conjunction with certain builds. I said it multiple times in my previous posts (passive defense at the cost of offensive capabilities and vice versa), I´m not disputing that.
What I´m saying is that they do not determine or dictate the way you play those builds. It really cannot be that hard to grasp that.

Maybe you and I just have rather different understandings of what “playstyle” means, idk.

Skoigoth.9238:

@Tim: I don´t even understand why you bring this up, but as a Warrior you can easily get up to 50-60% crit chance without having a single point of precision on your gear through Fury, Banner of Discipline, Signet of Fury and Truffle Steak/Steak and Asparagus Food, all of which are staples of most PvE Warrior builds.

Besides that, I am well aware that different stat sets are differently effective when used in conjunction with certain builds. I said it multiple times in my previous posts (passive defense at the cost of offensive capabilities and vice versa), I´m not disputing that.
What I´m saying is that they do not determine or dictate the way you play those builds. It really cannot be that hard to grasp that.

Maybe you and I just have rather different understandings of what “playstyle” means, idk.

I consider playstyle the skills and effects you set up and how/when you choose to use said skills. I believe that stats increase/decrease the effectiveness on aspect of builds and based on these effictiveness of skills you decide to use or not use certain skills, therefor changing your plastyle.
I mean you can’t call yourself a dps’er becuase you choose a dps weapon, traits , runes and sigils but are outdamaged by a tank?

btw are you not confusing food/gear with stats this time I said precision not non zerker?

Tim.6450:

Skoigoth.9238:

@Tim: I don´t even understand why you bring this up, but as a Warrior you can easily get up to 50-60% crit chance without having a single point of precision on your gear through Fury, Banner of Discipline, Signet of Fury and Truffle Steak/Steak and Asparagus Food, all of which are staples of most PvE Warrior builds.

Besides that, I am well aware that different stat sets are differently effective when used in conjunction with certain builds. I said it multiple times in my previous posts (passive defense at the cost of offensive capabilities and vice versa), I´m not disputing that.
What I´m saying is that they do not determine or dictate the way you play those builds. It really cannot be that hard to grasp that.

Maybe you and I just have rather different understandings of what “playstyle” means, idk.

I consider playstyle the skills and effects you set up and how/when you choose to use said skills. I believe that stats increase/decrease the effectiveness on aspect of builds and based on these effictiveness of skills you decide to use or not use certain skills, therefor changing your plastyle.
I mean you can’t call yourself a dps’er becuase you choose a dps weapon, traits , runes and sigils but are outdamaged by a tank?

btw are you not confusing food/gear with stats this time I said precision not non zerker?

That’s why we don’t call ourselves DPS’ers, we just call ourselves players.

Dragon Ruler X.8512:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Tldr:

Remove gear diversity, punish good players, reward bad players and make success depend on random rolls instead of skill and strategy.

I’m gunna have to go with no on this one.

1) Never said remove gear diversity. In fact I was increasing available options for gearing up. See point #3 as well.

2) Never said “punish” – There is a thread mocking the difficulty level of HoT already. Therefore I’m providing the “challenge” that all these good players want – while giving them a greater reward IF they can master it.

3) Not rewarding bad players. I’m providing them more options to make something they like with the play style they want.

4) Success is not to depend on randomness. The randomness is to increase the difficulty for the Zerk players while simply making things more interesting for other players (not as much repetition). Please see point #2.

What greater reward? The minute there is a literal difference in the quality of rewards…all these nerf zerk tear factories will explode on the forums.

Who are you, or anyone else for that matter, to just decide that one group of players should have content made more difficult for them? If the same decision was made…to make content more difficult for nomads…would that be equally acceptable? Would it be acceptable to just decide to make content more difficult for any other stat combination? We all know the answer to that would be a resounding no…it would not be acceptable. By definition, if you are targeting a specific group of players…trying to force them out of their gear choice, then you are attempting to punish them for that gear choice.

If you want to make content more challenging for players with maximum defensive builds…try swapping out some of your safety net gear so that you are actually in danger of getting downed. That’s the same thing zerk would do if they actually wanted more survivability (less challenge).

This has been repeated to the point that it is nauseating to even repeat it again, but here goes. The reason the content is faceroll for zerk…and everyone else, is that the content is 3 years old and has been thoroughly memorized and explained in video and text documentation all over the internet. When this content was launched, it was more difficult. Players did wear more defensive gear. They did so to survive until they began memorizing the mechanics and how to use their available tools to survive without continued investment in survival gear. The same can and likely will be the case with new content…if ANET actually provides this “challenging content” with some new and interesting mechanics. Just like with the old content…players will learn it and learn to clear it with minimal investment in safety net gear again. Players who choose to stay in full healer/max survival mode…will still be able to do so and will still be able to clear content…just like now.

There is no actual lack of gear diversity. I’m pretty sure players are still using the full range of stat combinations. Just because some players prefer not to group with players in certain stat combinations, does not mean that any of those players are not able to make full use of those gear sets or to participate in content successfully. There is bias both ways…that’s human nature…in a game played by humans. There are players who look down on zerk players with the tired mantra of dead players do no dps…just like there are players who look down on max survival players saying live nomads do no dps. Trying to lobby for zerk players to have a difficult time clearing content will have zero effect on gear diversity….it will just make it more tedious to get groups.

Tim.6450:

spoj.9672:

Gear is just an optional supplement. If you want to use those extra supplements for your support builds you are free to do so. But dont expect the meta to go backwards when we can compensate for lack of healing power/boon duration through other means.

The same can be said about content. It shouldn’t be expected for the content to cater the current meta.

It shouldn’t be expected to cater to your desired meta either. Currently, it works for everyone.

Nike.2631:

Skoigoth.9238:

Why don´t you people understand that bluntly making different gear prefixes “better” or “more viable” wont change anything?
There will always be most optimal strategies, team comps, builds and associated stat sets and the “meta” (a term being grossly misused in this context by some people here) will always settle around this optimum eventually.

And this is a perfect example of how developer and player perspectives differ. (Many)players WANT there to be a best choice so they can take it. Every time I’m in game and I hear some new player ask “what’s the best class?” I throw up in my mouth just a little… because if there is a right answer to that question the designer has done something HORIBLY WRONG. If that best answer remains best across a large range of activities it just gets more wrong.

Please, get over it already and let the devs do their job.

This may come as a shock to you, but creating a system where there are multiple similarly desirable solutions IS THE JOB. The game delivers on this principle well in some places and much, much less so in others.

Part of the problem here is that you seem to think that the developers of this game, should ignore/throw away their original game design intent….and remake this game to be more like the game you want instead. NikeEU linked the clear design intent of the developers and you just completely brush it off and continue to argue for what those developers clearly said they did not want. They went to great lengths to make sure that there would be no dedicated tanks, healers, or any other specific role. They clearly stated they did this so that it would be much easier to form groups…and other reasons. They succeeded at that. No matter how much you argue the point, nothing you say is going to change that original design intent and the fact that they successfully implemented it. No its not perfect, but it works. Any departure from this original design intent…introducing forced/dedicated roles…is a betrayal of the customers who did read the game description before purchase.

ODB.6891:

Part of the problem here is that you seem to think that the developers of this game, should ignore/throw away their original game design intent….and remake this game to be more like the game you want instead. NikeEU linked the clear design intent of the developers and you just completely brush it off and continue to argue for what those developers clearly said they did not want. They went to great lengths to make sure that there would be no dedicated tanks, healers, or any other specific role. They clearly stated they did this so that it would be much easier to form groups…and other reasons. They succeeded at that. No matter how much you argue the point, nothing you say is going to change that original design intent and the fact that they successfully implemented it. No its not perfect, but it works. Any departure from this original design intent…introducing forced/dedicated roles…is a betrayal of the customers who did read the game description before purchase.

The devs did create a working system, I agree. You can finish content with any gear, trait setup and party composition because you can mitigate most damage any number of ways. I also agree, like you said, that it’s not perfect. The point of contention is why it’s not perfect and how it can improve. Now clearly, we have a bunch of people differing on how exactly it can improve and in what direction. I know there are people calling for the trinity but, just like mounts, I personally wouldn’t want to see the game head in that direction. I would just like them to innovate and improve on their current design to the point where a clear choice on the best setup is not so obvious. I believe that is the goal to strive for but, much like combating exploits and RMT in the game, it’s a never ending goal that requires vigilance and creativity. I do not believe that the only place they can improve on is challenging content and AI. I find that notion to be silly. And honestly, we don’t really have a good idea on what exactly Anet’s balance philosophy for skills is given their propensity to balance once in a blue moon. At this point, I will wait to see what the devs have in store. I’m curious to see what their intentionally non-meta version of necro support will be and how they choose to shape player expectation for such going forward.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Black Box.9312:

My point is that it should never be easier to run a 5 zerker party as opposed to a 4 zerker and 1 non-zerker party, and yet that is exactly the case, particularly with bosses like the CoF P1 Slave Driver that essentially punish players that do not provide enough party DPS to end the fight before a wipe. Sure, it makes sense for a run to take longer with less damage, but it should never be more difficult at the same time.

Why think that? Given the nature of glass gear, it makes perfect sense for the addition of one member who is under-contributing toward the intended tactic to increase difficulty. All that does is underscore the potential for risk in all-out damage and the thin margin between success and failure in some glass groups.

Look at the flip side. All-clerics parties have a very easy time. There’s even a video showing such a party doing an Arah path without using dodge at all. I believe one of the participants already linked it in this thread, but here it is again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2VhmwLwvrM

How many players not contributing to a sustain tactic would it take to make that experience harder? I doubt that anyone tested that. I also very much doubt one player not adding to the tactic would do it because there’s less risk in a sustain build.

You’re missing the point entirely. If defensive gear is meant to be easymode, then why does it make things harder in some cases than running with a full zerker party, which is supposed to be the most difficult team composition to run with? It makes sense for it to make runs last longer, but it should NEVER be more difficult. The difficulty of any given encounter based on gear used by each party member should scale in a purely linear fashion, with full defensive gear being the easiest, and full offensive gear being the hardest. It should NOT be harder to run with 4 zerker 1 cleric than with 5 zerker, in any case. No exceptions.

Black Box.9312:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Black Box.9312:

My point is that it should never be easier to run a 5 zerker party as opposed to a 4 zerker and 1 non-zerker party, and yet that is exactly the case, particularly with bosses like the CoF P1 Slave Driver that essentially punish players that do not provide enough party DPS to end the fight before a wipe. Sure, it makes sense for a run to take longer with less damage, but it should never be more difficult at the same time.

Why think that? Given the nature of glass gear, it makes perfect sense for the addition of one member who is under-contributing toward the intended tactic to increase difficulty. All that does is underscore the potential for risk in all-out damage and the thin margin between success and failure in some glass groups.

Look at the flip side. All-clerics parties have a very easy time. There’s even a video showing such a party doing an Arah path without using dodge at all. I believe one of the participants already linked it in this thread, but here it is again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2VhmwLwvrM

How many players not contributing to a sustain tactic would it take to make that experience harder? I doubt that anyone tested that. I also very much doubt one player not adding to the tactic would do it because there’s less risk in a sustain build.

You’re missing the point entirely. If defensive gear is meant to be easymode, then why does it make things harder in some cases than running with a full zerker party, which is supposed to be the most difficult team composition to run with? It makes sense for it to make runs last longer, but it should NEVER be more difficult. The difficulty of any given encounter based on gear used by each party member should scale in a purely linear fashion, with full defensive gear being the easiest, and full offensive gear being the hardest. It should NOT be harder to run with 4 zerker 1 cleric than with 5 zerker, in any case. No exceptions.

No. Who ever said full defensive gear was supposed to be easier? Where do people get this notion of tanky = easy?!

Full defensive gear does exactly 1 thing, it makes you tankier. It has no desired effect on how hard or easy content is.

Now if endgame content damage scales so high that this extra protection is of no help, well tough noodles. Do you see zerker players complain about tanky builds being able to run through 80% of the pve game without ever having to dodge or pay attention to what is happening around them? No.

The problem with full defensive parties means it just takes longer to kill the mob. More defense equals less damage out out, while giving you the tools to last longer in the fight that takes longer due to less damage output. Haha, it’s rather a boring system because adding a cleric to a zerker party does about nothing, but lower the damage of the zerker party. That is the problem with anet’s system, there is no reason to do it differently as differently is less effective than the full zerk. Anet has created a system where damage output while giving buffs to your team to increase their damage is all that matters. Dmg is the only way to go, burst things down so they don’t do damage to you. I wish there were more mobs like husks in the silver wastes that are vuln to conditions but not vs direct dmg. Would make more builds worthy. That said, condi dmg is just a diff form of dmg, so no defense needed.

DeceiverX.8361:

Belzebu.3912:

Amineo.8951:

Zerk is kinda useless against world bosses right?

Kinda.
Most world bosses can’t be crit, so the precision and ferocity isn’t used, but still have the highest DPS possible.

This is blatantly untrue. Soldier’s gear always offers better DPS no matter what build you play against crit-immune targets, especially if food is considered, so much so to the point where the soldier’s gear can garner an upwards of 20% more damage.

Berserker-stat gear is not the be-all-end-all DPS set. With the condition cap changes, I would largely expect sinister gear to replace it in dungeon runs because it will strictly offer better DPS values from some classes if the stacks are not competed for by players.

Again kinda, in that scenario zerk and soldier have the same damage since both gives the same power (tied 1st in damage with Valk set). Soldier would have more damage only if food is considered.

BTW, currently besides world bosses (and who cares about efficiency against it anyway?) zerker IS the be-all-end-all DPS set, I hope that HoT changes it a bit and condition become more desirable.

Modify the rally mechanic and have healing power increase revival speed. See how fast people want a cleric in their party

Silhouette.5631:

Modify the rally mechanic and have healing power increase revival speed. See how fast people want a cleric in their party

I can answer that: the same disinterest in having one as now.

Black Box.9312:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Black Box.9312:

My point is that it should never be easier to run a 5 zerker party as opposed to a 4 zerker and 1 non-zerker party, and yet that is exactly the case, particularly with bosses like the CoF P1 Slave Driver that essentially punish players that do not provide enough party DPS to end the fight before a wipe. Sure, it makes sense for a run to take longer with less damage, but it should never be more difficult at the same time.

Why think that? Given the nature of glass gear, it makes perfect sense for the addition of one member who is under-contributing toward the intended tactic to increase difficulty. All that does is underscore the potential for risk in all-out damage and the thin margin between success and failure in some glass groups.

Look at the flip side. All-clerics parties have a very easy time. There’s even a video showing such a party doing an Arah path without using dodge at all. I believe one of the participants already linked it in this thread, but here it is again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2VhmwLwvrM

How many players not contributing to a sustain tactic would it take to make that experience harder? I doubt that anyone tested that. I also very much doubt one player not adding to the tactic would do it because there’s less risk in a sustain build.

You’re missing the point entirely. If defensive gear is meant to be easymode, then why does it make things harder in some cases than running with a full zerker party, which is supposed to be the most difficult team composition to run with? It makes sense for it to make runs last longer, but it should NEVER be more difficult. The difficulty of any given encounter based on gear used by each party member should scale in a purely linear fashion, with full defensive gear being the easiest, and full offensive gear being the hardest. It should NOT be harder to run with 4 zerker 1 cleric than with 5 zerker, in any case. No exceptions.

The most likely explanation for your 4 of 5 party being harder is because of lack of conformity to the chosen tactic. If the party otherwise coordinates, uses all buffs, etc. and still is demonstrably harder, the most likely explanation is borderline player skill. If a fully-coordinating group really needs that extra <10% damage, then the margin for error provided by their skill is very slight.

This game (and particularly its dungeons) heavily rewards skill-based play. Skilled players who know what they’re doing solo dungeons in glass. They can wear glass and carry PuG’s through dungeons even if 4 of 5 are wearing whatever they want and are using no tactic more sophisticated than “get ’em.” You might not find that kind of skill in most PuG’s.

Cyninja.2954:

Black Box.9312:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Black Box.9312:

My point is that it should never be easier to run a 5 zerker party as opposed to a 4 zerker and 1 non-zerker party, and yet that is exactly the case, particularly with bosses like the CoF P1 Slave Driver that essentially punish players that do not provide enough party DPS to end the fight before a wipe. Sure, it makes sense for a run to take longer with less damage, but it should never be more difficult at the same time.

Why think that? Given the nature of glass gear, it makes perfect sense for the addition of one member who is under-contributing toward the intended tactic to increase difficulty. All that does is underscore the potential for risk in all-out damage and the thin margin between success and failure in some glass groups.

Look at the flip side. All-clerics parties have a very easy time. There’s even a video showing such a party doing an Arah path without using dodge at all. I believe one of the participants already linked it in this thread, but here it is again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2VhmwLwvrM

How many players not contributing to a sustain tactic would it take to make that experience harder? I doubt that anyone tested that. I also very much doubt one player not adding to the tactic would do it because there’s less risk in a sustain build.

You’re missing the point entirely. If defensive gear is meant to be easymode, then why does it make things harder in some cases than running with a full zerker party, which is supposed to be the most difficult team composition to run with? It makes sense for it to make runs last longer, but it should NEVER be more difficult. The difficulty of any given encounter based on gear used by each party member should scale in a purely linear fashion, with full defensive gear being the easiest, and full offensive gear being the hardest. It should NOT be harder to run with 4 zerker 1 cleric than with 5 zerker, in any case. No exceptions.

No. Who ever said full defensive gear was supposed to be easier? Where do people get this notion of tanky = easy?!

Full defensive gear does exactly 1 thing, it makes you tankier. It has no desired effect on how hard or easy content is.

Now if endgame content damage scales so high that this extra protection is of no help, well tough noodles. Do you see zerker players complain about tanky builds being able to run through 80% of the pve game without ever having to dodge or pay attention to what is happening around them? No.

Yes, it is supposed to be easier. Because if it’s not, you have the current predicament where it is literally of no value to the game. How do we fix that? Either make it easier to use, or make it more effective than zerker gear. And doing the latter would be silly, don’t you agree?

Cyninja.2954:

Do you see zerker players complain about tanky builds being able to run through 80% of the pve game without ever having to dodge or pay attention to what is happening around them? No.

Do you see tanky players complain about zerker builds being able to run through 100% of the pve game 10 times faster? No.

The only reason the zerker meta exists is because of AI abuse. The Zerker “meta” is nothing but bad for the longevity of the game. People who play berserker well should be rewarded with tactical attacks against foes. At the moment there is NO risk as a zerker. Not with corner stacking and the insane abuse of poor AI. What’s happened is players have gotten lazy and expect everything to fall into their lap.

The gear stats are not the problem. its the AI These encounters which people take advantage of. Once that’s fixed and encounters are designed to be played out how they were intended the Zerker meta will die naturally over time. And Chances are if the game progresses a few years down pugs will be telling you not to run Zerker unless you’re a specific profession rather than all professions.

I have a tone of Zerker stuff too. I put a lot of work in Zerker gear. I wont be sad If I have to change to a different stat type to be effective. Because its about enjoyment for me not a single type of gear that isn’t even that fun to run on most professions.

Neox.3497:

Cyninja.2954:

Do you see zerker players complain about tanky builds being able to run through 80% of the pve game without ever having to dodge or pay attention to what is happening around them? No.

Do you see tanky players complain about zerker builds being able to run through 100% of the pve game 10 times faster? No.

Yeah, actually I do.

Neox.3497:

Cyninja.2954:

Do you see zerker players complain about tanky builds being able to run through 80% of the pve game without ever having to dodge or pay attention to what is happening around them? No.

Do you see tanky players complain about zerker builds being able to run through 100% of the pve game 10 times faster? No.

yes we do

see the trouble with zerkers is that they do too mcuh dmg. i want to play heal but zerkers kill every thing too fast, no one ever needs my heal, they heal on there own ne way

cant tank eitiher because zerks exploit AI with stacking

zerks are too fast for any thing else so yes we do complain about it

Lily.1935:

Once that’s fixed and encounters are designed to be played out how they were intended the Zerker meta will die naturally over time.

You got some inside info huh? How they were “intended” if it’s not a secret?

Lily.1935:

Neox.3497:

Cyninja.2954:

Do you see zerker players complain about tanky builds being able to run through 80% of the pve game without ever having to dodge or pay attention to what is happening around them? No.

Do you see tanky players complain about zerker builds being able to run through 100% of the pve game 10 times faster? No.

Yeah, actually I do.

I’m talking about open world. If it’s included in your “PvE game”.

TheRandomGuy.7246:

Lily.1935:

Once that’s fixed and encounters are designed to be played out how they were intended the Zerker meta will die naturally over time.

You got some inside info huh? How they were “intended” if it’s not a secret?

I’m more curious about how that implies current encounters are not ’designed to be played out how they are intended." I think my brain just melted.

Aren’t they designed to be played as intended by definition? :-x

Inb4 they won’t nerf zerker gear. They will nerf full zerker parties.

TheRandomGuy.7246:

Lily.1935:

Once that’s fixed and encounters are designed to be played out how they were intended the Zerker meta will die naturally over time.

You got some inside info huh? How they were “intended” if it’s not a secret?

It never was a secret. Old interviews with arena net. They expressed the damage rotation of the game and how ranged and Melee dps were supposed to go down. Melee was supposed to be high risk high reward. As it stands now the wall stacking method was not intended to be a viable methods to push through content. This just wasn’t the case. How anyone can believe that intentionally abusing bad AI was how arena net intended the encounter to go is beyond me. There is zero risk when wall stacking. There is no skill, no tactics to it. Its honestly mindless game play and I’ve hated it since I was first introduced to it. It was so boring. So mindless.

Also, Arena Net is working to fix this issue. They’ve hired someone to improve the game’s AI. This isn’t just minions and pets. This includes enemy encounters.

Lily.1935:

TheRandomGuy.7246:

Lily.1935:

Once that’s fixed and encounters are designed to be played out how they were intended the Zerker meta will die naturally over time.

You got some inside info huh? How they were “intended” if it’s not a secret?

It never was a secret. Old interviews with arena net. They expressed the damage rotation of the game and how ranged and Melee dps were supposed to go down. Melee was supposed to be high risk high reward. As it stands now the wall stacking method was not intended to be a viable methods to push through content. This just wasn’t the case. How anyone can believe that intentionally abusing bad AI was how arena net intended the encounter to go is beyond me. There is zero risk when wall stacking. There is no skill, no tactics to it. Its honestly mindless game play and I’ve hated it since I was first introduced to it. It was so boring. So mindless.

Also, Arena Net is working to fix this issue. They’ve hired someone to improve the game’s AI. This isn’t just minions and pets. This includes enemy encounters.

Meh…

Nike.2631:

The way you nerf ’Zerker is reduce the base healing of self-healing skills about 15% (with a corresponding increase in Heal power scaling) and suddenly most players no longer have the skill to survive existing encounters and have to gear for more sustain (any of the Toughness/Vitality/heal power family).

Will just make Celestial the new meta.

If you want to break the “one gear type” meta, you need to make encounters who are more efficiently done by the lack of one stat.

Then the meta would be to have all armor types and many weapons.
And for the players who want fun, they would have to take care against some mobs and help their friends against others, promoting mixed group over “one stat build” group.
Things never black or white, people may have alternative weapons or builds for specific boss without looking for the “best optimized of the death build against boss XXX”.

THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IS :
The monster/boss must be doable by zerker (or any non optimized group), but it must not exist a single stat prefix for too much of them to be doable efficiently.

These must be done for :
- Dungeons (fractals or not)
- World Boss
- Trash mobs (because they’re part of the PvE too!)

Heal stealer
=> steal heal from player
Healing became dangerous for the party and vitality/toughness help surviving with fewer heal.

Life stealer
=> steal a percentage of life from players
Vitality is a bad thing, the more you have vitality, the longer the fight

Condition absorber
=> absorb specific conditions to boost itself
Specific condition should be avoided. (ex: Fire elemental absorb burning to get Fury)

Spike Shield
=> reflect a percentage of direct damages
Zerk will need an incredible amount of heal/boons because they will kill themselves from their too high damage output (or will have to wait between their burst for their heal spell)

Reflector
=> projectile or conditions have a chance to be transfered back to the character
Distance OR conditions are dangerous to use

Attrition Aura
=> Apply conditions to players every few seconds
Promote condition removal/heal/vitality to make the fight easier.

Controller
=> The boss sometimes use control before a big attack
Promote the use of stun break to avoid the attack, or the boss to be stun too to cut the cast, or healing if the attack is not deadly immediatly (conditions?).

Terrorist
=> The boss will die alone, you can just help him dying faster, but your main goal is survive
Promote defense over offense.

The proper zerk nerf is called “good mob A.I.”

Neox.3497:

Cyninja.2954:

Do you see zerker players complain about tanky builds being able to run through 80% of the pve game without ever having to dodge or pay attention to what is happening around them? No.

Do you see tanky players complain about zerker builds being able to run through 100% of the pve game 10 times faster? No.

Every single nerf zerker thread is nothing but that. I see those all the time.

You must be new here.

ZeftheWicked.3076:

The proper zerk nerf is called “good mob A.I.”

Not really. AI, even complicated AI, is a system. Systems have rules, rules can be learned and weaknesses detected and preyed upon. It would be a nerf for about a week.

NikeEU.7690:

ZeftheWicked.3076:

The proper zerk nerf is called “good mob A.I.”

Not really. AI, even complicated AI, is a system. Systems have rules, rules can be learned and weaknesses detected and preyed upon. It would be a nerf for about a week.

Not quite. AI can be responsive/adaptive and retaliate with random decisions to corner specific players based on difficulty level predefined. AI can be smart and learn throughout the fight, adapting to certain tactics, how “well” they adapt is key for separating faceroll content to actual difficult content.

ZeftheWicked.3076:

The proper zerk nerf is called “good mob A.I.”

The proper zerk nerf is called “play another game”.

Valento.9852:

AI can be smart and learn throughout the fight, adapting to certain tactics, how “well” they adapt is key for separating faceroll content to actual difficult content.

We are still talking about mmo with very limited server resources right? I doubt anet will build skynet to “nerf zerker”.

Valento.9852:

NikeEU.7690:

ZeftheWicked.3076:

The proper zerk nerf is called “good mob A.I.”

Not really. AI, even complicated AI, is a system. Systems have rules, rules can be learned and weaknesses detected and preyed upon. It would be a nerf for about a week.

Not quite. AI can be responsive/adaptive and retaliate with random decisions to corner specific players based on difficulty level predefined. AI can be smart and learn throughout the fight, adapting to certain tactics, how “well” they adapt is key for separating faceroll content to actual difficult content.

Mhm, because I’ve seen AI that responsive in a video game… wait no I haven’t?

“actual difficult content” can be done without intense AI, and the required AI level to create difficult content on it’s own is quite the undertaking. Not only that though, but you have to think about the processes and server load. I mean wasn’t the condi cap limited to take strain off the system? And you think that having it go through a complicated set of AI functions at increments of less than a second would be feasible?

In current gaming the more complex the AI the more open to manipulation it becomes.

TheSwede.9512:

They’re not gonna directly Nerf Zerker gear in any way, I’d wager. The only way they could directly nerf it would be through nerfs to Power, Precision or Ferocity which will hurt more than just the PvE Dungeon meta.

They might, however, design encounters that are more difficult to deal with using Zerker gear, or simply more efficient to deal with through use of other gear. We can only speculate on this but it’s safe to assume that anything ANet throws out will probably be completely doable in Zerker gear still.

I’ve always imagined some bosses with unavoidable (other than some forms of invulnerability) attacks that do some appreciable damage, enough to be a serious threat to those with full aggressive stats, and a moderate threat to those with high defensive stats.

Or possibly instead massive AOES that can be dodged, but do serious damage, and come out faster than endurance recharges, meaning you will almost certainly take some hits, etc.

I have no problem with the idea of zerker, as long as they are threatened for that choice. Just as full bunkers are not contributing as much due to lower dps, zerkers should be threatened enough to make them at least pause and consider their choices.

Jerus.4350:

In current gaming the more complex the AI the more open to manipulation it becomes.

This is correct. For every “if / then” scenario you put into their script you’re just adding one more thing that can be used to the player’s advantage.

Here is a Wildstar raid

As you can see, the AI of the raid boss is quite limited or even non-existant. Yet, it’s still several times more challenging than the hardest fight in GW2. You don’t need better AI, you just need challenging mechanics.

Morfedel.4165:

I have no problem with the idea of zerker, as long as they are threatened for that choice. Just as full bunkers are not contributing as much due to lower dps, zerkers should be threatened enough to make them at least pause and consider their choices.

Berserker’s are threatened by the choice. Put on Berserker gear. Go melee Mossman at level 50. Unless you use active defenses, you will die, period.

This is, incidentally, how almost every fight in the game is. Two things make that a lot less transparent. Scaling in low level dungeons is so crazy that Legendary level bosses melt in seconds in teams of five which is a big issue. And many bosses in high level dungeons only have single target attacks meaning at average you’re only going to get 20% of that boss’ potential damage on you. What you find out when attempting to solo or duo a lot of this “faceroll content” is that it isn’t that easy afterall and if you don’t play well you die very quickly in Berserker gear.

Morfedel.4165:

I’ve always imagined some bosses with unavoidable (other than some forms of invulnerability) attacks that do some appreciable damage, enough to be a serious threat to those with full aggressive stats, and a moderate threat to those with high defensive stats.

Like Mai Trinn? Some attacks you can’t block, some attacks you can’t dodge, and if you get it wrong it hurts.

Or possibly instead massive AOES that can be dodged, but do serious damage, and come out faster than endurance recharges, meaning you will almost certainly take some hits, etc.

Like Mai Trinn cannon phase, or Lupi p2 AoE barrage?

I have no problem with the idea of zerker, as long as they are threatened for that choice. Just as full bunkers are not contributing as much due to lower dps, zerkers should be threatened enough to make them at least pause and consider their choices.

We are. We’ve just done these same encounters for nearly three years at this point and have memorized the mechanics and timings. No AI can stand up to that.

We just need new content.

Don’t nerf IT just... Make it so we don’t have to stack in a spot in a dungeon and spam 1 I hate how boring that style is then getting kicked from a group for wanting to do it a funner way xD

NikeEU.7690:

Jerus.4350:

In current gaming the more complex the AI the more open to manipulation it becomes.

This is correct. For every “if / then” scenario you put into their script you’re just adding one more thing that can be used to the player’s advantage.

Here is a Wildstar raid

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NEmE8i0Lsn8

As you can see, the AI of the raid boss is quite limited or even non-existant. Yet, it’s still several times more challenging than the hardest fight in GW2. You don’t need better AI, you just need challenging mechanics.

Of course they could always attempt to address the manipulation with the RNG. If it only correctly responds 75% of the time you can no longer count on it responding correctly taking a big hit to attempts to manipulate.

But, then of course you still have the issues of taking a lot of development time to introduce, and the server strain, which I’m sure are the two big reasons you simply don’t see this stuff in the game. However, there’s still the big elephant in the room which is “will it even be worth it?”

That’s a tough one. As we’ve pointed out, there’s the manipulation to consider. But then also simply avoidance. If a boss will move out of every AE field, evade all “big attacks” we may find it better to simply avoid using those things. Then you’ve just made the optimal approach to the game being auto attack and nothing else… hardly what I’d call a good change.

There’s just so many reasons to not even attempt the undertaking of creating truly amazing AI. Even if the potential for greatness is there, a slight misstep in it’s application and you’ve spent a ton of time to create kitten, wonderful kitten, but still kitten.

NikeEU.7690:

What you find out when attempting to solo or duo a lot of this “faceroll content” is that it isn’t that easy afterall and if you don’t play well you die very quickly in Berserker gear.

Of course it’s supposed to be difficult to solo/duo, because the content is meant to be balanced around 5 man teams. IMO the fact that dungeon content can be done solo or duo at all suggests that it really isn’t as challenging as it should be.

Puls.5867:

Don’t nerf IT just… Make it so we don’t have to stack in a spot in a dungeon and spam 1 I hate how boring that style is then getting kicked from a group for wanting to do it a funner way xD

PUGs are dumb, I’m going to refrain from explaining why stacking is bad, as it’s been pointed out enough already.

It surely would be nice if PUGs adopted the current meta strategies instead of just sticking to what they know. But, that seems to be asking too much.

and theres a trinty in that vedio you can see a tank pulling the big long aoes while a healer keps him up and the dpss go crazy on the boss

nothin in gw2 is like that bc everything is zerk or gtfo

Puls.5867:

Don’t nerf IT just… Make it so we don’t have to stack in a spot in a dungeon and spam 1 I hate how boring that style is then getting kicked from a group for wanting to do it a funner way xD

Well that is your opinion some of us do every dungeon every day and we speed run them we dont want to do them in a funnier way we just want to do them as fast as possible.

Black Box.9312:

NikeEU.7690:

What you find out when attempting to solo or duo a lot of this “faceroll content” is that it isn’t that easy afterall and if you don’t play well you die very quickly in Berserker gear.

Of course it’s supposed to be difficult to solo/duo, because the content is meant to be balanced around 5 man teams. IMO the fact that dungeon content can be done solo or duo at all suggests that it really isn’t as challenging as it should be.

Exactly which means the problem isnt berserker. Its the difficulty level. Fractal bosses at scale 50 are much better balanced for 5 man groups.

MarkoNS.3261:

Puls.5867:

Don’t nerf IT just… Make it so we don’t have to stack in a spot in a dungeon and spam 1 I hate how boring that style is then getting kicked from a group for wanting to do it a funner way xD

Well that is your opinion some of us do every dungeon every day and we speed run them we dont want to do them in a funnier way we just want to do them as fast as possible.

but your way isnt fun

why r u playing the game if u dont want t have fun and just rush rush runrun 111111?

spoj.9672:

Black Box.9312:

NikeEU.7690:

What you find out when attempting to solo or duo a lot of this “faceroll content” is that it isn’t that easy afterall and if you don’t play well you die very quickly in Berserker gear.

Of course it’s supposed to be difficult to solo/duo, because the content is meant to be balanced around 5 man teams. IMO the fact that dungeon content can be done solo or duo at all suggests that it really isn’t as challenging as it should be.

Exactly which means the problem isnt berserker. Its the difficulty level. Fractals bosses at scale 50 are much better balanced for 5 man groups.

My point with that earlier argument is that you can’t have the argument that “gear isn’t the problem” while also badmouthing players that use suboptimal gear and look down on them as if the gear they’re using is the reason why your dungeon run is going bad. It’s a ridiculous double standard. If gear IS the problem, then fine. If it’s NOT the problem, then why fling kitten at each other over it in the first place?

ForeverAway.5948:

MarkoNS.3261:

Puls.5867:

Don’t nerf IT just… Make it so we don’t have to stack in a spot in a dungeon and spam 1 I hate how boring that style is then getting kicked from a group for wanting to do it a funner way xD

Well that is your opinion some of us do every dungeon every day and we speed run them we dont want to do them in a funnier way we just want to do them as fast as possible.

but your way isnt fun

why r u playing the game if u dont want t have fun and just rush rush runrun 111111?

what is this 11111 you talk about if you want to play properly you use rotations kitten , and i play dungeons because they are the best way to get gold unless you have inside information about tp stuff.