Guild Wars 2

cthaeh.2168:

Windsagio.1340:

‘cept it’s not skill based, because the ‘high skill/high risk’ option can be used by all skill levels.

Ha! Try sending 5 new players into a dungeon in full zerk and see how well they do. It is skill based, it’s just that everyone has spent the past 3 years honing said skills.

With meta traits, not selfish bunker traits…

Vargamonth.2047:

cthaeh.2168:

Ha! Try sending 5 new players into a dungeon in full zerk and see how well they do. It is skill based, it’s just that everyone has spent the past 3 years honing said skills.

Maybe it’s time then to develop something that plays slightly different.
Something where, even if knowledge, experience and muscle memory still help in the long run, it’s not enough to completely dominate the content.

uhhh what other factor should cause success, you basically covered everything

experience
knowledge
reaction
thats about all anything is based on.

Well ppl did you ever do dungeons in soldiers gear of clerics? or a combination?

It is simple, you run in and smash their faces in and run on to the next, dps is 30% lower
but you do not dodge, you just kill stiff, use 1 healing build and walk on. bashing faces in, you can just GS and axe mace,and 1 guard with mace focus and staff. walk on and bash faces in… you could take a zerk ele, use 2 guards to keep it alive, 1 warrior to buf and at final boss just be a bit carefull and guess what styand there and bash faces in. as long as you do not get conditions you have no problemns at all: GG.
you lost maybe a minute on zerker builds had no risk whatsoever and it was just standing there and mashing buttons. even the wrong ones do not kill you as long as you do not press 6 with warrior,

Vargamonth.2047:

cthaeh.2168:

Ha! Try sending 5 new players into a dungeon in full zerk and see how well they do. It is skill based, it’s just that everyone has spent the past 3 years honing said skills.

Maybe it’s time then to develop something that plays slightly different.
Something where, even if knowledge, experience and muscle memory still help in the long run, it’s not enough to completely dominate the content.

So you want AI that learns your tactics and constantly adjust to maintain a certain level of difficulty? If you can come up with how to do that for a video game, props, people have been trying… of course if anyone were ever successful it might also just flop because people don’t always like getting punched in the face. It’s generally not the punches people enjoy, but learning how to do better each time and the success of finally beating it.

Artemis Thuras.8795:

Capacity:
Sure.

Ability?
no.

Less than 1% of the players I know can dodge every 1hit ko.
Hell Less than 1% of them even know what most of the bosses have as 1hit KOs or what the telegraph for it is.

But that’s the thing. You don’t even need to dodge everything. There are other tools in the game besides just dodging to get around attacks.

Artemis Thuras.8795:

edit: Without a guardian who can provide aegis in a split-second to save your unskilled behind from a 1hit KO.

I sense anger in your tone. Are you upset?

NoTrigger.8396:

the game is trivialized because the content is trivial. once the content is really challenging and difficult using all of your tools will be the norm and required.
thats another thing you seem to ignore or dont want to understand.
and by tools i dont mean defensive gear.

I’m not ignoring anything. Did I say the content is ONLY trivialized by a specific thing? I just don’t have enough room to go over all the under-utilized, over-simplified, easily-avoidable, exploitable or broken aspects I’ve encountered in my plays through the game.

…and let’s face it. It’s not like you’d take the time to read it anyway. And I have a dayjob. I’ve got little time to bother trying to talk with angry people online who usually aren’t willing to put down their insults and accusations and talk sensibly.

NoTrigger.8396:

by forcing good players to use defensive gear you wont make anything more challenging, you will make it even easier.

Hmm, I’d have sworn I mentioned nothing’s being forced. I guess you either didn’t explain why you think that or you’re not listening to me.

NoTrigger.8396:

apart from that, adding stuff like endurance regen, more vigor or w/e to defensive gear doesnt make ANY sense at all, because defensive gear is there to reduce your damage taken and thus less active defense is needed.

Now I know I mentioned this in the write ups I made. Now I know you didn’t read them. Guess I’m done.

NikeEU.7690:

I love when people say “stats are a part of your build.” In a sense that is true, because it is a choice you make when character building but what stats don’t do is more important…

Stop you right there. So the speed at which you complete content is not important to you or the community at large? Because that is what the stats affect the most currently.

NikeEU.7690:

Your stats are literally the absolute least meaningfuly definitive thing about your build.

And yet it tends to be the more controversial aspect of a build. I mean, if fractals were time-gated and lasted 15min each regardless of what you do or how you play or how much players kicked and screamed, then the community might be congruent to your statement.

PaxTheGreatOne.9472:

Well ppl did you ever do dungeons in soldiers gear of clerics? or a combination?

It is simple, you run in and smash their faces in and run on to the next, dps is 30% lower
but you do not dodge, you just kill stiff, use 1 healing build and walk on. bashing faces in, you can just GS and axe mace,and 1 guard with mace focus and staff. walk on and bash faces in… you could take a zerk ele, use 2 guards to keep it alive, 1 warrior to buf and at final boss just be a bit carefull and guess what styand there and bash faces in. as long as you do not get conditions you have no problemns at all: GG.
you lost maybe a minute on zerker builds had no risk whatsoever and it was just standing there and mashing buttons. even the wrong ones do not kill you as long as you do not press 6 with warrior,

One reason I’d rather change aspects of other type gear. No definitive gameplay difference.

Jerus.4350:

Vargamonth.2047:

cthaeh.2168:

Ha! Try sending 5 new players into a dungeon in full zerk and see how well they do. It is skill based, it’s just that everyone has spent the past 3 years honing said skills.

Maybe it’s time then to develop something that plays slightly different.
Something where, even if knowledge, experience and muscle memory still help in the long run, it’s not enough to completely dominate the content.

So you want AI that learns your tactics and constantly adjust to maintain a certain level of difficulty? If you can come up with how to do that for a video game, props, people have been trying… of course if anyone were ever successful it might also just flop because people don’t always like getting punched in the face. It’s generally not the punches people enjoy, but learning how to do better each time and the success of finally beating it.

We all know that expecting some kind of amazing AI is ridiculous, specially for a MMO where all the CPU load is server side.
It’s possible, however, to spice things up a little bit using just the current features.

As an introduction. imagine the Silverwastes Vinewrath event during escort phases.
You can go north lane (usually the least populated one) and stay around the ammunition trying to defend it. Most players will be either AFK or constantly chasing the commander tag (or the carrier, if there’s no commander), so you’ll have to fight alone, for the most part, against a constant stream of mordrem foes.
You know every mob moveset and weakness, and that’s indeed helpful, but you still don’t know how the whole fight is going to flow.
You have no control or knowledge of what exactly will come with the next spawn or where will it appear. You can get a Mordrem Wolf next to you or a Leeching Thrasher far away behind.
You can find yourself burning a gamechanging CD, like an Ice Bow, only to get a much more dangerous foe a few seconds later. Or you could save it waiting for a prey that won’t ever appear.

This isolated fight can hardly be treated as meaningful content, but it still delivers the feeling of the kind fo experience I’m suggesting. A fight you can get better at, you can build better for, but still never completely dominate due the random nature of a good part of it.

Grab this random add idea, throw it into a Lupicus fight and you’ll get something completely different.
Suddenly you can reduce the damage output of the boss itself (the so called 1HKOs, even if they aren’t, some people like to complain about) while still making the whole fight more difficult.
You hit the effectivity of some active defenses (like dodges), not by increasing the attacks speed of the boss itself (as it has been suggested several times) on a completely melee unfriendly way, but by increasing the amount of damage sources.
Multiple damage sources that encourage a level of awareness hardly needed when facing a single boss and which can still be actively fought through control (something that is not currently at its best shape for PvE), positioning, focus fire, … keeping defenseless gear perfectly viable.
Multiple damage sources which, with spawn timers properly adjusted, can also result on swarming and prevent extremely tanky setups from easily beating a content meant to be challenging.
And what IMHO is the best of all, you get content that doesn’t get old so fast, that keeps some replay value for a much longer time (even better if Lupicus would randomly select its phases from a pool of 5 or 6 :P).

Honestly, this is the best thing I can imagine to promote player skill based build/gear diversity without having to rely on fresh content additions every few months (which we all know it’s not going to happen).

PaxTheGreatOne.9472:

Well ppl did you ever do dungeons in soldiers gear of clerics? or a combination?

It is simple, you run in and smash their faces in and run on to the next, dps is 30% lower
but you do not dodge, you just kill stiff, use 1 healing build and walk on. bashing faces in, you can just GS and axe mace,and 1 guard with mace focus and staff. walk on and bash faces in… you could take a zerk ele, use 2 guards to keep it alive, 1 warrior to buf and at final boss just be a bit carefull and guess what styand there and bash faces in. as long as you do not get conditions you have no problemns at all: GG.
you lost maybe a minute on zerker builds had no risk whatsoever and it was just standing there and mashing buttons. even the wrong ones do not kill you as long as you do not press 6 with warrior,

I think you will find many people have tried these other stats : as per the posts in this thread. I think you will find the time difference and strategy to be very different than published.
If you followed this right now you would realise the good pug meta only has one guard (not 2). The skill co-ordination is much higher than spam all buttons – it may seem like that to the untrained eye in what is going on,

The time savings vs organised zerker vs unorganised zerker is signinificant…
Examples:
1) CM P3: Average pug – 15 mins
Training runs – between 15-20 mins. (Can easily point you to one of these if desired – it is a lot more complex than stack n wack. A lot of fights are explained before we go and do stuff so everyone knows what to do.)
Experienced run (1 mo ago): 8 mins. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ivbuhcu3Zlo
Recent run : < 6 mins https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vQPjGY5Ob08 (5th April)
Record run: Snowcrow [SC] < 3 mins [ see www.gw2dungeons.net for video link]

2) CoE P1:
Average pug – 20 mins
Training runs – 15-20 mins – explaining stuff to do and expect a couple of wipes (can point you to these also)
Experience run (1 mo ago): ~ 12 mins https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6uZORdLqaW8
Recent run: < 10 mins (this vid has not yet been released – got this on the 5th April)
Record run: Quantify [Qt] < 8 mins [ see www.gw2dungeons.net for video link]

If it was as easy to just bash buttons there would not be such a time differential.
I would like to see a full soldiers, nomads or celestial team hit these fast times and prove it is a minute difference between these other setups.

The fact is there is a massive time differential between average pug run (which is generally using meta builds – eg some form of zerker) and co-ordinated experienced guild runs. Many record runs include 0 guardians as the team understand the fights fully and can dodge/mitigate dmg in a good RNG run.

Dungeons were designed to be a test of good co-ordinated skill from people playing together in a team composition. Synergy is everything to getting a smooth and decent time – this is something that rarely happens without experience, practice, knowledge of what skills / traits to bring where. It’s definitely not “spam” skills.

Dungeons are already hard for many people – individuals moving from open world events (1 in 60 person zerg) to a 5 man instanced content means there is already a different focus on what they do is more important to the overall outcome. The open world is slowly being designed to get players to think for themselves rather than bash “1” – eg silverwastes (defend the whole lane), have a few carrier escorts. This kind of thing would work in a raid instance but not a dungeon instance (too few players).

Try teaching someone who doesn’t yet understand there class fully or has only being doing open world events and it’s an eye opener when they slowly realise how complex it is moving from the easy classes (warrior) through to lighter/med classes or a support guardian with Max DPS (for the aegis/stability/condi clears/reflects/retreats etc).

Nuzt.7894:

Dungeons should be fun, part of the fun is challenge, everyone in full zerk speed running is not fun nor is it challenging. You can say “but but if everyone goes tanky the fights will last longer” but that unrealistic. People will still insist on everyone running full zerk, stacking, and everything else that makes it quick and painless.

This is the reason the trinity was there to begin with, while I can respect that they tried to get away from the trinity, the current format has made dungeons a formality to earn gold vs something to do for fun.

defensive gear dungeon run:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2VhmwLwvrM
such exciting, much fun, such challenge, so difficult.

in glass cannon gear you can at least die if you kitten up.

i agree dungeons arent challenging, but they never were to begin with.
and making the fights last longer will not change anything about it.

Vargamonth.2047:

Against what seems to be popular belief, meta builds and tactics won’t settle around the fastest approach, but around the most rewarding PuG friendly and easy to execute one.

never heard of that before.

Jerus.4350:

I really don’t agree with the idea that dungeons are too easy. They only got to be this way because we have done them dozens and dozens of times. Because people like Wethospu and many others have analyzed them to death and spread that information to help people get through them.

in wildstar it took me more time to kill a single dungeon boss in a 5 player group than learning how to solo lupicus in gw2.

this is a good dungeon in my opinion and much more challenging than what we have in gw2:

Honestly, I think part of the problem are the invincibility frames (dodging, skills with evade, etc). If it’s possible to avoid 95+% of the damage by dodging properly, why would anyone run anything other than full damage? I think Wildstar did a much better job with dodging. The dodge physically moved you out of the way (and much faster than simply running), but did not make you invincible.

NikeEU.7690:

Nuzt.7894:

Dungeons should be fun, part of the fun is challenge, everyone in full zerk speed running is not fun nor is it challenging. You can say “but but if everyone goes tanky the fights will last longer” but that unrealistic. People will still insist on everyone running full zerk, stacking, and everything else that makes it quick and painless.

This is the reason the trinity was there to begin with, while I can respect that they tried to get away from the trinity, the current format has made dungeons a formality to earn gold vs something to do for fun.

1. It is fun.

2. It is challenging. Don’t believe me? Go set a speed run record. Win the next speed clear tournament. Speed running is not easy. Unless you consider what PUGS in berserker gear do to be speed runs, you are sorrily mistaken. I assure you that if you joined my nightly dungeon tour you wouldn’t be able to keep up with us and our pace of play.

Exactly as much fun and challenging as key farming with lv10.

Don’t believe me? Go set a speed run record… etc.

The real problem in this game is the stats you can choose. Most RPGs or MMOs these days try to limit and make you get only gear you can use for your class. GW2 lets us choose and the result is that a kittenload of players run around which dish out so much less damage than others that it’s ridiculous. I see people in open world – bearbow rangers who need 15 seconds to kill an underlevelled mob – while I kill them within 1-2 hits. That’s just broken. Don’t make that possible. It’s right the opposite of useful, why don’t make gear that helps everyone? Like gear with berserker stats AND pvt? Just make the game harder then, but then at least people don’t turn out to be useless dishing out next to no damage.

Bubi.7942:

NikeEU.7690:

Nuzt.7894:

Dungeons should be fun, part of the fun is challenge, everyone in full zerk speed running is not fun nor is it challenging. You can say “but but if everyone goes tanky the fights will last longer” but that unrealistic. People will still insist on everyone running full zerk, stacking, and everything else that makes it quick and painless.

This is the reason the trinity was there to begin with, while I can respect that they tried to get away from the trinity, the current format has made dungeons a formality to earn gold vs something to do for fun.

1. It is fun.

2. It is challenging. Don’t believe me? Go set a speed run record. Win the next speed clear tournament. Speed running is not easy. Unless you consider what PUGS in berserker gear do to be speed runs, you are sorrily mistaken. I assure you that if you joined my nightly dungeon tour you wouldn’t be able to keep up with us and our pace of play.

Exactly as much fun and challenging as key farming with lv10.

Don’t believe me? Go set a speed run record… etc.

You have got to be kidding me.

Leo G.4501:

And yet it tends to be the more controversial aspect of a build.

It’s not controversial at all, among people who take the time to understand the game and character building system. It’s a huge controversy among players who install the game for the first time, dream of playing a clerics tank, and then get their dreams crushed by the reality of the game and the system. How about everyone agree that people who are ignorant should buck up and understand the game instead of dumbing the game down to their level of ignorance?

Bubi.7942:

NikeEU.7690:

Nuzt.7894:

Dungeons should be fun, part of the fun is challenge, everyone in full zerk speed running is not fun nor is it challenging. You can say “but but if everyone goes tanky the fights will last longer” but that unrealistic. People will still insist on everyone running full zerk, stacking, and everything else that makes it quick and painless.

This is the reason the trinity was there to begin with, while I can respect that they tried to get away from the trinity, the current format has made dungeons a formality to earn gold vs something to do for fun.

1. It is fun.

2. It is challenging. Don’t believe me? Go set a speed run record. Win the next speed clear tournament. Speed running is not easy. Unless you consider what PUGS in berserker gear do to be speed runs, you are sorrily mistaken. I assure you that if you joined my nightly dungeon tour you wouldn’t be able to keep up with us and our pace of play.

Exactly as much fun and challenging as key farming with lv10.

Don’t believe me? Go set a speed run record… etc.

…

I’ve set plenty of speed run records. Once you do one we can talk.

Bubi.7942:

Don’t believe me? Go set a speed run record… etc.

You aware that you are saying that to Nike from DnT right? Because if you are saying that, it mean that you should already set a speed run record, but didn’t like it a bit, but if you did that you should know who is Nike, so you probably never set a record speed run. So the guy that never did a record run ask to a guy that did it to do it and see how boring it is?? Now I have a headache.

phys.7689:

uhhh what other factor should cause success, you basically covered everything

experience
knowledge
reaction
thats about all anything is based on.

Not totally. Here some challenging aspect that Anet already put in the game.

- Liadri : The fight was challenging because you were always under pressure. You have several thing that could one shot kill you that weren’t the boss. So not only you had to kill the boss, you also had to remove her 3 stacks, be aware of the big AoE that could almost one shot you, check for Comsic Rift to not drag you in the wrong place and keep a eye on the Visions that could 1 shot you if they touch you. All of those thing are actually easy to do, but all of them at the same time? Even if you get used to it, unless we find a gimmick strategy you gonna have to paid good attention to the fight at the time.

- Old Fractal Agony and Lupi Solo : They have one thing in common. They have one thing in common. They both have quick successive one-shot kill attack. Let’s take the old shaman first. Back in the days you didn’t have the agony resistance to do the highest level of fractal. Each arrow of the shaman was able to kill you. Not down, but dead right away. Not only you had to dodge quickly to not get hit by it, you also needed to manage your dodge or you could run out way to quickly. Lupi solo is similar. You have a lot of attack that can make a lot of damage so not only you have to dodge at the right time, you also have to manage your block/endurance, etc.

There is also stuff that were never really in the game. Like random complex AoE pattern. There is plenty of tool that can be used to keep a content challenging. Of course any content will be easier and easier over time, but there is stuff tactics that can be use to always keep the player on his toes, even if he is good and experienced.

The problem isn’t that Anet can’t make that kind of challenging content, the problem is that they don’t want. The game is casual friendly so content need to be feasible by almost anyone. Truly challenging content won’t be able to be completed by everybody and I don’t think that it’s something that Anet can accept, produce and put into their game for that exact reason. Which is kind of sad.

Laki.7160:

Honestly, I think part of the problem are the invincibility frames (dodging, skills with evade, etc). If it’s possible to avoid 95+% of the damage by dodging properly, why would anyone run anything other than full damage? I think Wildstar did a much better job with dodging. The dodge physically moved you out of the way (and much faster than simply running), but did not make you invincible.

That’s not a problem, that’s the beauty of GW2. Not needed defensive gear isn’t a problem by itself.

More roleplay should break the usual stack and max dps in dungeons… not everyone love do that everytime… more options, more fun

TPMN.1483:

I think you will find many people have tried these other stats
pug meta only has one guard (not 2).
The skill co-ordination is much higher than spam all buttons
The fact is there is a massive time differential between average pug run (which is generally using meta builds – eg some form of zerker) and co-ordinated experienced guild runs. Many record runs include 0 guardians as the team understand the fights fully and can dodge/mitigate dmg in a good RNG run.

Dungeons were designed to be a test of good co-ordinated skill from people playing together in a team composition. Synergy is everything to getting a smooth and decent time
Dungeons are already hard for many people – individuals moving from open world events (1 in 60 person zerg) to a 5 man instanced content means there is already a different focus on what they do is more important to the overall outcome.

I really love the fact you want people to bring content for the few elite players who skip everything. conform elite player focus it coiuld be simple: A white cilinder with 5 bosses would be enough. placing them just outside aggro-range from eachother would save them the effort of running. else they’ll need a portalling mesmer to save them the time.

You should know there is a difference between :

1. The pug who doesn’t know (newb, ppl who couldn’t care)
2. The zerker wannabee (noob, who doesn’t want to learn)
3. The pug who does know (people who are experienced in the game and know the game mechanics but not the ideal dungeon patterns
4. The pug dungeon experts (people who frequented their dungeons of choice often and know the sequences. (often former dungeon guild runners)
5. Zerk meta “dungeon master” Pug
6. Dungeon guild
7. the GUILD speedrunners (the people who keep on experimenting with 1 or a few dungeon paths for record runs.) with TS and group experience

And their dmg scales likewise

1. No stacks, own casual builds, no gear. DPS? Survivability? no food
2. Sometimes stacks, got a build, partial gear. high DPS, no survivability, no food
3. Sometimes stacks, got a build and sometimes gear high dps dps, good or high survivability. Experience, FOOD (dungeon weapons)
4. Stacks, got a or the builds and gear can be anything, but is DPS related, skills generally switched and focussed: high dps, high survivability. Experience, FOOD, dungeon weapons
5. Stacks, got the builds and the gear, skills are changed very high dps, high survivability.(experience), FOOD, dungeon weapons DPS very high, survivability variable
6. Stacks, got the builds and the gear, skills are changed very high dps, high survivability. FOOD communications. experience, dungeon weapons, should not die, very-über high dps
7. Everything, including a study on the most efficient pattern, sometimes these runs are planned weeks ahead… hardcore. All gear is tested, as are CD checks, build changes and weapon swaps. DPS is over the top, no counter DPS 100% block or blind and ofcourse using communications makes this easier, and we luckily only see the succesfull attempts, in a botched run they’d survive as well ofcourse….

How should the Pug casuals and the guild speedrunners share dungeons? I understand there is a difference in paths, And I personally suck at CM as I do not like it, but 3 min 27 is very fast. But now I would like them all 5 to get 4 pugs and all set the same record. Without practice, they could use food, np and they could use stacking, stacks, and even mesmer portals. I doubt they’d make 5 min, even 8-10 minutes would be difficult. This as the most efficient way of sdoing things and the easiest “pugable” way tends to to differ, mostly due to lack of communications in the pug runs.

Also guild solutions in AC will lead to strange things: in AC p2 , where (in general) all PUGs stack close to the traps, dungeon guilds often stack above champion spawn, leading to a completely different dungeon approach, at ;least for that minor encounter,

Pug meta is rediculous. you can wait a long time for a pick-up-group at times, any group composition will do as long as ppl know what they should do.

I personally prefer 1-2 e,1w,1g,1t,(1m) but I’ll run with all squishies as wel.. or any other group. The fact it is doable without problems makes you good, not the reliance on all the possible benefitsa and tuning you can cram into the group,. as it inheritly shows reliance. Reliance = bad.

I know how to use 6 classes in dungeon: as my mesmer is full condi and my engineer was deleted 6 months ago.

I know the differences between casual dungeons , good dungeon and dungeon guilds.
They are uncomparable. problem is each day ppl start. There is no training pattern in dungeons IMHO. Any training comes from practice, most from open dungeon groups.

Oh and I ’s love a guess %-age estimate on the 7 catagories above!

Lian Olsam.9541:

More roleplay should break the usual stack and max dps in dungeons… not everyone love do that everytime… more options, more fun

You can already play anything you want in dungeons and succeed. Nothing is stopping you currently. If dungeons were gear gated and could only be finished in Berserker gear you’d have a point, but since you can beat any dungeon with 5 necros in apothecary gear you have no point.

Thaddeus.4891:

Bubi.7942:

Don’t believe me? Go set a speed run record… etc.

You aware that you are saying that to Nike from DnT right? Because if you are saying that, it mean that you should already set a speed run record, but didn’t like it a bit, but if you did that you should know who is Nike, so you probably never set a record speed run. So the guy that never did a record run ask to a guy that did it to do it and see how boring it is?? Now I have a headache.

phys.7689:

uhhh what other factor should cause success, you basically covered everything

experience
knowledge
reaction
thats about all anything is based on.

Not totally. Here some challenging aspect that Anet already put in the game.

There are other things Arenanet added to the game to increase difficulty, notably the mistook instabilities. Examples:

33 – Outflanked, enemies do more damage when flanking, gets interesting in fights with loads of enemies coming from all sides like the elementals at Volcanic fractal or the acolytes on Cliffside
35 – Stormy Weather, lightning strikes deal damage and stun the target AND anyone around them, so it can easily hurt stacked players
39 – Last Laugh, enemies explode when killed. Can knockback and interrupt players in the blast radius and also deals damage
43 – Bloodlust, take percentage damage when you hit an enemy, stacks intensity, resets after a kill. Can really hurt when you are using big AOE skills on multiple mobs
44 – Overextended, take damage when you critically hit, scales with player hit points
and of course never forget the troll instability 47 – Antielitism, using elite skills results in death

Just a couple of instabilities that can hurt stacking teams or zerker teams.
For dailies, level 38 is the easiest instability for the 30+ bracket, while 46 is one of the easiest for the 40+ bracket. Mixing up those instabilities so players can’t pick the super easy ones and ignore the harder ones can really make fractals more challenging, without making any other changes.

In a similar way instabilities can be used to make dungeons harder, with each dungeon having an instability (or even two) applied on them. For example, Stormy Weather could work well in HotW (dungeon takes place during a storm), Last Laugh in Arah (exploding Risen), Outflanked in CM (backstabbing Thieves) etc

I don’t think the issue is that more builds need to be “viable.” All builds are viable in dungeons; however, all builds are not optimal. Zerk / assassin ten to be the optimal builds, and the issue is that players want to simply get through as quickly as they can, so they can get the shiny at the end. That’s one of the biggest issues with most (not all, most) speed clears. They aren’t doing it because it’s a challenge. They aren’t doing it because that’s what they enjoy. They don’t give a rat’s kitten whats actually ‘happening’ in the dungeon. All they care about is getting to the end to get the loot, then it’s over and done with, on to the next clear. To them, nothing between start and finish is worth the time, worth the effort (and they aren’t necessarily wrong).

What we need is smarter AI. Foes with complete skill bars (like they had in GW1) and enough “smarts” to know how to use that bar. In dungeons, we need to increase the leash to allow for greater following ranges to reduce some of the skipping (and some better drops to entice the killing of them). We need some foes to work in ‘packs’ with skill sets that compliment each other. Mordrem are a step in the correct direction, imo, but they aren’t the final solution.

Thaddeus.4891:

Bubi.7942:

Don’t believe me? Go set a speed run record… etc.

You aware that you are saying that to Nike from DnT right? Because if you are saying that, it mean that you should already set a speed run record, but didn’t like it a bit, but if you did that you should know who is Nike, so you probably never set a record speed run. So the guy that never did a record run ask to a guy that did it to do it and see how boring it is?? Now I have a headache.

phys.7689:

uhhh what other factor should cause success, you basically covered everything

experience
knowledge
reaction
thats about all anything is based on.

Not totally. Here some challenging aspect that Anet already put in the game.

- Liadri : The fight was challenging because you were always under pressure. You have several thing that could one shot kill you that weren’t the boss. So not only you had to kill the boss, you also had to remove her 3 stacks, be aware of the big AoE that could almost one shot you, check for Comsic Rift to not drag you in the wrong place and keep a eye on the Visions that could 1 shot you if they touch you. All of those thing are actually easy to do, but all of them at the same time? Even if you get used to it, unless we find a gimmick strategy you gonna have to paid good attention to the fight at the time.

- Old Fractal Agony and Lupi Solo : They have one thing in common. They have one thing in common. They both have quick successive one-shot kill attack. Let’s take the old shaman first. Back in the days you didn’t have the agony resistance to do the highest level of fractal. Each arrow of the shaman was able to kill you. Not down, but dead right away. Not only you had to dodge quickly to not get hit by it, you also needed to manage your dodge or you could run out way to quickly. Lupi solo is similar. You have a lot of attack that can make a lot of damage so not only you have to dodge at the right time, you also have to manage your block/endurance, etc.

There is also stuff that were never really in the game. Like random complex AoE pattern. There is plenty of tool that can be used to keep a content challenging. Of course any content will be easier and easier over time, but there is stuff tactics that can be use to always keep the player on his toes, even if he is good and experienced.

The problem isn’t that Anet can’t make that kind of challenging content, the problem is that they don’t want. The game is casual friendly so content need to be feasible by almost anyone. Truly challenging content won’t be able to be completed by everybody and I don’t think that it’s something that Anet can accept, produce and put into their game for that exact reason. Which is kind of sad.

being good at the things you described are still based on
knowledge
experience
reaction

i dont think anything can be based on anything else
though i will say the reaction facet of GW2, via the current meta is generally not as important, anttack, when it is, its mostly one dimensional. You may have to react to one attack, but seldom to any tactical changes

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

They aren’t doing it because it’s a challenge. They aren’t doing it because that’s what they enjoy. They don’t give a rat’s kitten whats actually ‘happening’ in the dungeon. All they care about is getting to the end to get the loot, then it’s over and done with, on to the next clear. To them, nothing between start and finish is worth the time, worth the effort (and they aren’t necessarily wrong).

I’m doing solo dungeon because it’s challenging. I was doing the old fractal 40-80 because it was challenging.

I have a ton of fun trying to figure out new strategy and get better with them. Each time we finish a dungeon faster we feel proud of ourselves.

So don’t generalize pls. Do you really think that guild that go through hours of fail, rinse and repeat the same dungeon several times each day without the bonus reward at the end to get that new records is doing it to get to the loot as fast as possible?

phys.7689:

being good at the things you described are still based on
knowledge
experience
reaction

i dont think anything can be based on anything else
though i will say the reaction facet of GW2, via the current meta is generally not as important, anttack, when it is, its mostly one dimensional. You may have to react to one attack, but seldom to any tactical changes

Communication(s) will make:
knowledge& experience less important.

And reaction is something you have or not….

So TS for the win?

Also seeing the previous post, Some people just play for the challenge, I presonally play because I want to play, with any challenge as a bonus. I do not like fractals above 39 TBH. I like some return tbh, I like alt-ing so I need gold. I do not live for speedruns, I just want a decent ran dungeon

Fact is, if you’re going to keep 1/2 gear sets head and shoulders above the others in one game format, you might as well erase the other sets.

I mean, come on, if people don’t want other sets to be useful besides berk/assassin, the least anet can do is remove the ascended chests in fractals that have non-berk/assassin stats.

Why does apothecary or rabid even exist if it’s going to be so ridiculously suboptimal.

Yeah, you can run any set and complete content, but we’re talking about a sizable difference in clear times, and time is a limited commodity for people in a TEAM game, so nobody wants to inconvenience others so even thought there’s an “option” to run other setups, the reality is that the expectations are always berserker. Otherwise you’re being a scumbag to your group.

Wildstar has done action combat far better. If its endgame were 5/8/10-man based instead of the usual large raid endgame, I’d dump GW2 in an instant ;(

Windsagio.1340:

‘cept it’s not skill based, because the ‘high skill/high risk’ option can be used by all skill levels.

This is a failure in the game design, due to ANET not wanting to allow more inspection/control options in party/group formation. Yes, less skilled players can slap on ascended zerker gear and jump right into a level 50 fractal run…without having even completed fractal level 1. That is because we have no reliable filter to stop them from doing things like this. Yes, this is an extreme example, but the same principle applies to other situations in the game. I fully understand the reasons why ANET will not let us filter prospective party members more (they don’t want to expose the nomads and newbies to the inevitable party kicks), but this results in a lot of really bad party compositions. I’d go on to say that it is still skill based…regarding the ability to actually perform and survive in zerker type gear, but you just have to deal with a lot of players who really shouldn’t be wearing that type of gear yet. The skill becomes apparent when you see who is and isn’t face planting on a regular basis…although the aggro system in this game is really bad…as it tends to focus on anyone in doing high damage/in melee range (this primarily translates to zerkers). When the rest of your party is in nomad gear…this means you have to be flawless to not end up face down.

Daym this threads still popular.

Harder content = less build variety.

Zenith.7301:

Fact is, if you’re going to keep 1/2 gear sets head and shoulders above the others in one game format, you might as well erase the other sets.

I mean, come on, if people don’t want other sets to be useful besides berk/assassin, the least anet can do is remove the ascended chests in fractals that have non-berk/assassin stats.

Why does apothecary or rabid even exist if it’s going to be so ridiculously suboptimal.

Yeah, you can run any set and complete content, but we’re talking about a sizable difference in clear times, and time is a limited commodity for people in a TEAM game, so nobody wants to inconvenience others so even thought there’s an “option” to run other setups, the reality is that the expectations are always berserker. Otherwise you’re being a scumbag to your group.

Wildstar has done action combat far better. If its endgame were 5/8/10-man based instead of the usual large raid endgame, I’d dump GW2 in an instant ;(

I almost agree with you on the question of why some of these gear sets even exist. I asked that question a long time ago on these forums. The only justifications I could think of were that some of them were meant for pvp venues only and that some were meant as training gear for players to learn to pve. They should have restricted some of these gear sets to only be usable in the proper venue upon game launch. Nomad should never have been allowed in pve. The same with clerics.

Thaddeus.4891:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

They aren’t doing it because it’s a challenge. They aren’t doing it because that’s what they enjoy. They don’t give a rat’s kitten whats actually ‘happening’ in the dungeon. All they care about is getting to the end to get the loot, then it’s over and done with, on to the next clear. To them, nothing between start and finish is worth the time, worth the effort (and they aren’t necessarily wrong).

I’m doing solo dungeon because it’s challenging. I was doing the old fractal 40-80 because it was challenging.

I have a ton of fun trying to figure out new strategy and get better with them. Each time we finish a dungeon faster we feel proud of ourselves.

So don’t generalize pls. Do you really think that guild that go through hours of fail, rinse and repeat the same dungeon several times each day without the bonus reward at the end to get that new records is doing it to get to the loot as fast as possible?

1. I was talking about SPEED CLEARS. Not solo dungeons.

2. I said MOST. Not all, most. It was in the sentence you neglected to include. It was not intended as a generalization, as I did specifically call out that there are exceptions to all things in my phraseology.

ODB.6891:

I almost agree with you on the question of why some of these gear sets even exist. I asked that question a long time ago on these forums. The only justifications I could think of were that some of them were meant for pvp venues only and that some were meant as training gear for players to learn to pve. They should have restricted some of these gear sets to only be usable in the proper venue upon game launch. Nomad should never have been allowed in pve. The same with clerics.

At game launch, it wasn’t immediately obvious that some of the stats available weren’t any good.

1. Healing power is more effective than vitality if you have to go more than about three minutes between resets.
2. “Toughness has diminishing returns” is a myth, and not the real problem with the stat anyway.
3. The sort of things you can pull off when you go all-out with direct damage weren’t anticipated, and so conditions weren’t tuned to be even remotely competitive in PvE.

It actually took quite a while for people to figure the game out. Even now, if you visit the mesmer subforum, you might see hints that theorycrafters once regarded them as literal healers, for example.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

I don’t think the issue is that more builds need to be “viable.” All builds are viable in dungeons; however, all builds are not optimal. Zerk / assassin ten to be the optimal builds, and the issue is that players want to simply get through as quickly as they can, so they can get the shiny at the end. That’s one of the biggest issues with most (not all, most) speed clears. They aren’t doing it because it’s a challenge. They aren’t doing it because that’s what they enjoy. They don’t give a rat’s kitten whats actually ‘happening’ in the dungeon. All they care about is getting to the end to get the loot, then it’s over and done with, on to the next clear. To them, nothing between start and finish is worth the time, worth the effort (and they aren’t necessarily wrong).

What we need is smarter AI. Foes with complete skill bars (like they had in GW1) and enough “smarts” to know how to use that bar. In dungeons, we need to increase the leash to allow for greater following ranges to reduce some of the skipping (and some better drops to entice the killing of them). We need some foes to work in ‘packs’ with skill sets that compliment each other. Mordrem are a step in the correct direction, imo, but they aren’t the final solution.

All stats are viable in PvE but condition damage.

Even Condi damage, it’s very nice for some professions in Solo situations.

Jerus.4350:

Even Condi damage, it’s very nice for some professions in Solo situations.

Solo PvE =/= open PvE/dungeons/fractals…

Mobs with over 9000 vitality and negative 9000 toughness doesn’t help, neither does the cap and how burning and poison do damage, that is not viable, you even had to say some professions.

Sagat.3285:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

I don’t think the issue is that more builds need to be “viable.” All builds are viable in dungeons; however, all builds are not optimal. Zerk / assassin ten to be the optimal builds, and the issue is that players want to simply get through as quickly as they can, so they can get the shiny at the end. That’s one of the biggest issues with most (not all, most) speed clears. They aren’t doing it because it’s a challenge. They aren’t doing it because that’s what they enjoy. They don’t give a rat’s kitten whats actually ‘happening’ in the dungeon. All they care about is getting to the end to get the loot, then it’s over and done with, on to the next clear. To them, nothing between start and finish is worth the time, worth the effort (and they aren’t necessarily wrong).

What we need is smarter AI. Foes with complete skill bars (like they had in GW1) and enough “smarts” to know how to use that bar. In dungeons, we need to increase the leash to allow for greater following ranges to reduce some of the skipping (and some better drops to entice the killing of them). We need some foes to work in ‘packs’ with skill sets that compliment each other. Mordrem are a step in the correct direction, imo, but they aren’t the final solution.

All stats are viable in PvE but condition damage.

No, even conditions are viable. Far, far from optimal with their current hang ups, but still viable.

5 man nomad party can beat pretty much everything in this game so i would say that every single stat combo is viable.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Sagat.3285:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

I don’t think the issue is that more builds need to be “viable.” All builds are viable in dungeons; however, all builds are not optimal. Zerk / assassin ten to be the optimal builds, and the issue is that players want to simply get through as quickly as they can, so they can get the shiny at the end. That’s one of the biggest issues with most (not all, most) speed clears. They aren’t doing it because it’s a challenge. They aren’t doing it because that’s what they enjoy. They don’t give a rat’s kitten whats actually ‘happening’ in the dungeon. All they care about is getting to the end to get the loot, then it’s over and done with, on to the next clear. To them, nothing between start and finish is worth the time, worth the effort (and they aren’t necessarily wrong).

What we need is smarter AI. Foes with complete skill bars (like they had in GW1) and enough “smarts” to know how to use that bar. In dungeons, we need to increase the leash to allow for greater following ranges to reduce some of the skipping (and some better drops to entice the killing of them). We need some foes to work in ‘packs’ with skill sets that compliment each other. Mordrem are a step in the correct direction, imo, but they aren’t the final solution.

All stats are viable in PvE but condition damage.

No, even conditions are viable. Far, far from optimal with their current hang ups, but still viable.

Nope, there is no stops or restrictions to your toughness,vitality or heals popping everywhere, conditions have it therefore they cannot be classified as viable DoT wise.

Sagat.3285:

Jerus.4350:

Even Condi damage, it’s very nice for some professions in Solo situations.

Solo PvE =/= open PvE/dungeons/fractals…

Mobs with over 9000 vitality and negative 9000 toughness doesn’t help, neither does the cap and how burning and poison do damage, that is not viable, you even had to say some professions.

Still, some solo’s have been done faster with Rabid condi builds than the zerker builds iirc so… yeah /shrug.

Condi’s have their issues, but they do work. And btw, the solo pve I’m talking about is dungeon soloing

Sagat.3285:

Jerus.4350:

Even Condi damage, it’s very nice for some professions in Solo situations.

Solo PvE =/= open PvE/dungeons/fractals…

Mobs with over 9000 vitality and negative 9000 toughness doesn’t help, neither does the cap and how burning and poison do damage, that is not viable, you even had to say some professions.

condi can do a ton of damage, even with 5 man groups, the problem is that people bump heads,
and the other problem is even if they have high dps, its delayed, the top end game isnt about extended dps, its about burst dps in the first 10 seconds.

However, this doesnt mean its not viable, or strong, just that its not top level speed clear numbers, it wont kill things in the first 10-20 seconds, but it will do fine in the first 20-40, which i say still lies in the viable range.

The only inviable conditions are damage-based.

Sagat.3285:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Sagat.3285:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

I don’t think the issue is that more builds need to be “viable.” All builds are viable in dungeons; however, all builds are not optimal. Zerk / assassin ten to be the optimal builds, and the issue is that players want to simply get through as quickly as they can, so they can get the shiny at the end. That’s one of the biggest issues with most (not all, most) speed clears. They aren’t doing it because it’s a challenge. They aren’t doing it because that’s what they enjoy. They don’t give a rat’s kitten whats actually ‘happening’ in the dungeon. All they care about is getting to the end to get the loot, then it’s over and done with, on to the next clear. To them, nothing between start and finish is worth the time, worth the effort (and they aren’t necessarily wrong).

What we need is smarter AI. Foes with complete skill bars (like they had in GW1) and enough “smarts” to know how to use that bar. In dungeons, we need to increase the leash to allow for greater following ranges to reduce some of the skipping (and some better drops to entice the killing of them). We need some foes to work in ‘packs’ with skill sets that compliment each other. Mordrem are a step in the correct direction, imo, but they aren’t the final solution.

All stats are viable in PvE but condition damage.

No, even conditions are viable. Far, far from optimal with their current hang ups, but still viable.

Nope, there is no stops or restrictions to your toughness,vitality or heals popping everywhere, conditions have it therefore they cannot be classified as viable DoT wise.

That doesn’t change their viability. Viable simply means ‘capable of working successfully’ and conditions are quite capable of working successfully. Even when you are competing with others to apply them. It just takes….longer.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Sagat.3285:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Sagat.3285:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

I don’t think the issue is that more builds need to be “viable.” All builds are viable in dungeons; however, all builds are not optimal. Zerk / assassin ten to be the optimal builds, and the issue is that players want to simply get through as quickly as they can, so they can get the shiny at the end. That’s one of the biggest issues with most (not all, most) speed clears. They aren’t doing it because it’s a challenge. They aren’t doing it because that’s what they enjoy. They don’t give a rat’s kitten whats actually ‘happening’ in the dungeon. All they care about is getting to the end to get the loot, then it’s over and done with, on to the next clear. To them, nothing between start and finish is worth the time, worth the effort (and they aren’t necessarily wrong).

What we need is smarter AI. Foes with complete skill bars (like they had in GW1) and enough “smarts” to know how to use that bar. In dungeons, we need to increase the leash to allow for greater following ranges to reduce some of the skipping (and some better drops to entice the killing of them). We need some foes to work in ‘packs’ with skill sets that compliment each other. Mordrem are a step in the correct direction, imo, but they aren’t the final solution.

All stats are viable in PvE but condition damage.

No, even conditions are viable. Far, far from optimal with their current hang ups, but still viable.

Nope, there is no stops or restrictions to your toughness,vitality or heals popping everywhere, conditions have it therefore they cannot be classified as viable DoT wise.

That doesn’t change their viability. Viable simply means ‘capable of working successfully’ and conditions are quite capable of working successfully. Even when you are competing with others to apply them. It just takes….longer.

The cap and how burning and poison stacks don’t make their “viability” longer to be effective it blocks it no one can’t deny that, there is no stops when stacking heals on top of heal, blocks on top blocks etc. dps is just more optimal, conditions dps works differently. I’m not sure we have the same definition of viable.

Sagat.3285:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Sagat.3285:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Sagat.3285:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

I don’t think the issue is that more builds need to be “viable.” All builds are viable in dungeons; however, all builds are not optimal. Zerk / assassin ten to be the optimal builds, and the issue is that players want to simply get through as quickly as they can, so they can get the shiny at the end. That’s one of the biggest issues with most (not all, most) speed clears. They aren’t doing it because it’s a challenge. They aren’t doing it because that’s what they enjoy. They don’t give a rat’s kitten whats actually ‘happening’ in the dungeon. All they care about is getting to the end to get the loot, then it’s over and done with, on to the next clear. To them, nothing between start and finish is worth the time, worth the effort (and they aren’t necessarily wrong).

What we need is smarter AI. Foes with complete skill bars (like they had in GW1) and enough “smarts” to know how to use that bar. In dungeons, we need to increase the leash to allow for greater following ranges to reduce some of the skipping (and some better drops to entice the killing of them). We need some foes to work in ‘packs’ with skill sets that compliment each other. Mordrem are a step in the correct direction, imo, but they aren’t the final solution.

All stats are viable in PvE but condition damage.

No, even conditions are viable. Far, far from optimal with their current hang ups, but still viable.

Nope, there is no stops or restrictions to your toughness,vitality or heals popping everywhere, conditions have it therefore they cannot be classified as viable DoT wise.

That doesn’t change their viability. Viable simply means ‘capable of working successfully’ and conditions are quite capable of working successfully. Even when you are competing with others to apply them. It just takes….longer.

The cap and how burning and poison stacks don’t make their “viability” longer to be effective it blocks it no one can’t deny that, there is no stops when stacking heals on top of heal, blocks on top blocks etc. dps is just more optimal, conditions dps works differently. I’m not sure we have the same definition of viable.

poison was never meant to stack in intensity, its meant to be low damage that reduces healing, mostly its there to be an easy long lasting condition that effects the monsters.
Classes that use conditions are never supposed to depend on poison for damage, thats just not the purpose of poison.

now, burning is supposed to be pretty ok damage, for how easy it is to apply, and it is, the main problem is when a lot of people are applying it, but that doesnt have to be an issue in a 5 man party. (dungeons), burning is almost always short duration, very few professions can apply it constantly.

as far as for large scale zergs, tons of gameplay options are limited , condi duration, control, immunities, now more bosses without crits, not to say that its good that bosses nullify mechanics/builds, but fire dmg alone isnt that big a deal.
once people can apply multi bleed/torment/conf? condi will be fine in zergs

Sagat.3285:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Sagat.3285:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Sagat.3285:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

I don’t think the issue is that more builds need to be “viable.” All builds are viable in dungeons; however, all builds are not optimal. Zerk / assassin ten to be the optimal builds, and the issue is that players want to simply get through as quickly as they can, so they can get the shiny at the end. That’s one of the biggest issues with most (not all, most) speed clears. They aren’t doing it because it’s a challenge. They aren’t doing it because that’s what they enjoy. They don’t give a rat’s kitten whats actually ‘happening’ in the dungeon. All they care about is getting to the end to get the loot, then it’s over and done with, on to the next clear. To them, nothing between start and finish is worth the time, worth the effort (and they aren’t necessarily wrong).

What we need is smarter AI. Foes with complete skill bars (like they had in GW1) and enough “smarts” to know how to use that bar. In dungeons, we need to increase the leash to allow for greater following ranges to reduce some of the skipping (and some better drops to entice the killing of them). We need some foes to work in ‘packs’ with skill sets that compliment each other. Mordrem are a step in the correct direction, imo, but they aren’t the final solution.

All stats are viable in PvE but condition damage.

No, even conditions are viable. Far, far from optimal with their current hang ups, but still viable.

Nope, there is no stops or restrictions to your toughness,vitality or heals popping everywhere, conditions have it therefore they cannot be classified as viable DoT wise.

That doesn’t change their viability. Viable simply means ‘capable of working successfully’ and conditions are quite capable of working successfully. Even when you are competing with others to apply them. It just takes….longer.

The cap and how burning and poison stacks don’t make their “viability” longer to be effective it blocks it no one can’t deny that, there is no stops when stacking heals on top of heal, blocks on top blocks etc. dps is just more optimal, conditions dps works differently. I’m not sure we have the same definition of viable.

in order to be playing well, there is a lot of things you dont want to bump heads on.

using blast finishers at the wrong time
using fields at the wrong time
using strong dps at wrong time
control at the wrong time.
too many might stackers. (over 25 is pointless)

using condi at the wrong time is just one of the many ways people who dont have a plan of how to play together can bump heads, people working together wont bump heads that much.

people messing up on might stacking/fields will effect party dps a lot more than people bumping heads on burning.

phys.7689:

Sagat.3285:

Jerus.4350:

Even Condi damage, it’s very nice for some professions in Solo situations.

Solo PvE =/= open PvE/dungeons/fractals…

Mobs with over 9000 vitality and negative 9000 toughness doesn’t help, neither does the cap and how burning and poison do damage, that is not viable, you even had to say some professions.

condi can do a ton of damage, even with 5 man groups, the problem is that people bump heads,
and the other problem is even if they have high dps, its delayed, the top end game isnt about extended dps, its about burst dps in the first 10 seconds.

However, this doesnt mean its not viable, or strong, just that its not top level speed clear numbers, it wont kill things in the first 10-20 seconds, but it will do fine in the first 20-40, which i say still lies in the viable range.

It’s not just that, it also doesn’t scale well with buffs/synergy. It’s not affected by vulnerability IIRC, and while fury helps crits which can help condi application, not only does that just mean you begin to cap out earlier but it also doesn’t scale as well as power damage does with it as not only are you getting the higher power damage but also boosted even higher thanks to ferocity.

Condi’s certainly have their issues, but still have their uses.

Jerus.4350:

phys.7689:

Sagat.3285:

Jerus.4350:

Even Condi damage, it’s very nice for some professions in Solo situations.

Solo PvE =/= open PvE/dungeons/fractals…

Mobs with over 9000 vitality and negative 9000 toughness doesn’t help, neither does the cap and how burning and poison do damage, that is not viable, you even had to say some professions.

condi can do a ton of damage, even with 5 man groups, the problem is that people bump heads,
and the other problem is even if they have high dps, its delayed, the top end game isnt about extended dps, its about burst dps in the first 10 seconds.

However, this doesnt mean its not viable, or strong, just that its not top level speed clear numbers, it wont kill things in the first 10-20 seconds, but it will do fine in the first 20-40, which i say still lies in the viable range.

It’s not just that, it also doesn’t scale well with buffs/synergy. It’s not affected by vulnerability IIRC, and while fury helps crits which can help condi application, not only does that just mean you begin to cap out earlier but it also doesn’t scale as well as power damage does with it as not only are you getting the higher power damage but also boosted even higher thanks to ferocity.

Condi’s certainly have their issues, but still have their uses.

condi damage should not work the same as direct damage, it supposed to be build up damage, it ignores armor, protection and it continues to do damage after application. (while you run or avoid) Its also generally tied to skills that are hard to avoid,(near instant cast) and can operate at a range.

yeah, it has disadvantages, but it also has advantages.
the main disadvantage was the condi cap on intensity stacking effects, which they are removing. That alone may end up making them fairly strong. Yeah condi doesnt work the same way as direct damage, but thats kind of the point of it being different.

I doubt it will ever be the speed run meta, unless they have mechanics that stop people from frontloading dps. But that doesnt mean its intrinsicly bad.

Is it actually being removed? I know it was in the stress test but curious if they have said anything officially. Initially I figured they might have done it to just increase the strain on their system to better simulate the stress, but I do hope it’s going to be gone.

And yeah, condi’s have their benefits, just saying, that stuff is another limitation they have and another reason why the meta is power based and likely will remain that way even without a condi cap.

phys.7689:

Jerus.4350:

phys.7689:

Sagat.3285:

Jerus.4350:

Even Condi damage, it’s very nice for some professions in Solo situations.

Solo PvE =/= open PvE/dungeons/fractals…

Mobs with over 9000 vitality and negative 9000 toughness doesn’t help, neither does the cap and how burning and poison do damage, that is not viable, you even had to say some professions.

condi can do a ton of damage, even with 5 man groups, the problem is that people bump heads,
and the other problem is even if they have high dps, its delayed, the top end game isnt about extended dps, its about burst dps in the first 10 seconds.

However, this doesnt mean its not viable, or strong, just that its not top level speed clear numbers, it wont kill things in the first 10-20 seconds, but it will do fine in the first 20-40, which i say still lies in the viable range.

It’s not just that, it also doesn’t scale well with buffs/synergy. It’s not affected by vulnerability IIRC, and while fury helps crits which can help condi application, not only does that just mean you begin to cap out earlier but it also doesn’t scale as well as power damage does with it as not only are you getting the higher power damage but also boosted even higher thanks to ferocity.

Condi’s certainly have their issues, but still have their uses.

condi damage should not work the same as direct damage, it supposed to be build up damage, it ignores armor, protection and it continues to do damage after application. (while you run or avoid) Its also generally tied to skills that are hard to avoid,(near instant cast) and can operate at a range.

yeah, it has disadvantages, but it also has advantages.
the main disadvantage was the condi cap on intensity stacking effects, which they are removing. That alone may end up making them fairly strong. Yeah condi doesnt work the same way as direct damage, but thats kind of the point of it being different.

I doubt it will ever be the speed run meta, unless they have mechanics that stop people from frontloading dps. But that doesnt mean its intrinsicly bad.

Why ignore armor when the bosses are HP sponges? SW has a few mobs that follow an opposite design that what needs to be more common, all that talk about it’s advantages while power doesn’t have to worry about armor because mobs have negative 9000 toughness.

NikeEU.7690:

Leo G.4501:

And yet it tends to be the more controversial aspect of a build.

It’s not controversial at all, among people who take the time to understand the game and character building system. It’s a huge controversy among players who install the game for the first time, dream of playing a clerics tank, and then get their dreams crushed by the reality of the game and the system. How about everyone agree that people who are ignorant should buck up and understand the game instead of dumbing the game down to their level of ignorance?

There are more perspectives than you’re limiting yourself to accepting. Rather than make up 2 camps of thoughts (the “wrong ignorant” side and then “your side”) to dismiss all argument, why not actually engage in discussion? Perhaps you’ll learn something.

Sagat.3285:

phys.7689:

Jerus.4350:

phys.7689:

Sagat.3285:

Jerus.4350:

Even Condi damage, it’s very nice for some professions in Solo situations.

Solo PvE =/= open PvE/dungeons/fractals…

Mobs with over 9000 vitality and negative 9000 toughness doesn’t help, neither does the cap and how burning and poison do damage, that is not viable, you even had to say some professions.

condi can do a ton of damage, even with 5 man groups, the problem is that people bump heads,
and the other problem is even if they have high dps, its delayed, the top end game isnt about extended dps, its about burst dps in the first 10 seconds.

However, this doesnt mean its not viable, or strong, just that its not top level speed clear numbers, it wont kill things in the first 10-20 seconds, but it will do fine in the first 20-40, which i say still lies in the viable range.

It’s not just that, it also doesn’t scale well with buffs/synergy. It’s not affected by vulnerability IIRC, and while fury helps crits which can help condi application, not only does that just mean you begin to cap out earlier but it also doesn’t scale as well as power damage does with it as not only are you getting the higher power damage but also boosted even higher thanks to ferocity.

Condi’s certainly have their issues, but still have their uses.

condi damage should not work the same as direct damage, it supposed to be build up damage, it ignores armor, protection and it continues to do damage after application. (while you run or avoid) Its also generally tied to skills that are hard to avoid,(near instant cast) and can operate at a range.

yeah, it has disadvantages, but it also has advantages.
the main disadvantage was the condi cap on intensity stacking effects, which they are removing. That alone may end up making them fairly strong. Yeah condi doesnt work the same way as direct damage, but thats kind of the point of it being different.

I doubt it will ever be the speed run meta, unless they have mechanics that stop people from frontloading dps. But that doesnt mean its intrinsicly bad.

Why ignore armor when the bosses are HP sponges? SW has a few mobs that follow an opposite design that what needs to be more common, all that talk about it’s advantages while power doesn’t have to worry about armor because mobs have negative 9000 toughness.

its not only that you ignore armor, its also that you dont need to be in as much danger to apply it, and it continues doing damage even while you do other things.

Its just not designed to be front loaded is the main problem, meta wise, but that doesnt mean its garbage, it means its use doesnt line up with the current 15 second burst meta, which is its own issue.

Leo G.4501:

NikeEU.7690:

Leo G.4501:

And yet it tends to be the more controversial aspect of a build.

It’s not controversial at all, among people who take the time to understand the game and character building system. It’s a huge controversy among players who install the game for the first time, dream of playing a clerics tank, and then get their dreams crushed by the reality of the game and the system. How about everyone agree that people who are ignorant should buck up and understand the game instead of dumbing the game down to their level of ignorance?

There are more perspectives than you’re limiting yourself to accepting. Rather than make up 2 camps of thoughts (the “wrong ignorant” side and then “your side”) to dismiss all argument, why not actually engage in discussion? Perhaps you’ll learn something.

if you would shorten your giant essay posts in to tl;drs you might actually get discussion

tbh i can’t be bothered to read your giant walls.