Guild Wars 2

phys.7689:

spoj.9672:

phys.7689:

ok ignore the numbers, thats fine, because its even worse when you look at how you describe for pve.

a highly skilled person with 100% toughness cannot survive better than a person with 100% power.

they can make more mistakes, but a highly skilled person does not make that many mistakes. toughness, vitality give no benefit for skillfull play. thats why the more skill full you get, the less useful the stats are.

I might want to afk a fight. Like so: https://youtu.be/x1mxlA13ICk

You cannot say that this gearset + build is not incredibly effective at doing just that.

The whole point of the gear in the hands of a skilled or unskilled player is that you dont need to dodge. Using the skill arguement is irrelevant. Another way to look at it is that the gear is effective at making mistakes more forgiving.

Obviously if you want to be faster, you are skilled and intend to dodge then it makes no sense to use nomads because you would not get anything out of it. But thats going for a different goal. Nomads would obviously be ineffective at that particular goal.

afking is not skillfull play.

making mistakes more forgiving is not a playstyle, it is how good you are at a playstyle.

Like i said many times, if the goal of stat distributions is to adjust difficulty, that would be much more effeciently achieved with a totally different system.

also, berserker is not the hardest set to play. a midrange stat set is probably harder to play, because killing fast does in fact eliminate mechanics, risk, and decrease oppurtunity to make mistakes.

for setting difficulty the stat sets are all over the place, and different for different professions, it also generates difficulties balancing content and normalizing difficulty.

I never said it was skillfull play. Im just saying the stat combo is effective at achieving that goal. Id argue this is a good system to have as a difficulty slider. And as Nike has mentioned. I much prefer a system where diversity comes from traits, runes, sigils and utilities. I dont want to be forced to craft multiple ascended sets for multiple encounters.

Also you keep asking why do we have stat customization. We keep saying we agree it doesnt make much sense. But its too late. Removing it will probably cause huge backlashes so thats not an option. And the changes you are suggesting will only make things worse and shift the game into having less diversity for the average player (because they wont have multiple sets of gear and trait swapping would be less impactful). I really dont see how this is in any way, shape or form a good idea.

you appear to be in the no need for stat customization camp then.
So why do we have stats at all? why not just remove them?

oh don’t worry, I really wish they removed stats, it would have stopped a whole load of the insanity that gets posted on these boards every day if people didn’t get so uptight about stat prefixes.

personally, i like stat diversity when its well executed, it gives me many ways to play the game, and different things to try.

but, there is something to be said for very well balanced difficulties, and lower investment to achieve best case scenarios, like you might see in a fighting game/action game.

but it is well executed because you can use whatever stats you want and still beat content/ making defensive stats give equal (or similar) amount of reward to offensive stats is poor execution, hence why some people have qualms with the meta right now in league – you have super tanks who build straight defense who can duel people who build pure damage and still throw them in the trash can because their base damages are so high that they don’t need to build any sort of damage – or worse, their damage actually scales on their armour/health/magic resistance so you’re fully rewarded for building defensively.

in the context of league, it’s a necessary evil to do this to keep tanks in the meta since they need to actually be a threat when two teams fight otherwise they’ll be completely ignored by the damage carries on both teams, but this thread is of course about dungeons whereas league is pvp. in the context of dungeons, it’s like a warrior stacking toughness and vitality, and having traits that grant power, precision and ferocity equivalent to a certain % of their toughness/vitality, it would be stupid and rewards bad play.

NikeEU.7690:

phys.7689:

NikeEU.7690:

phys.7689:

defensive stats EFFECTING SKILLS wont remove skillful play at all.

Look at it the other way: How does having defensive stats making Wall of Reflect last 2 seconds longer promote skilled play? How about 20% Stability duration?

Having Stability last longer doesn’t promote skillful play. Skillful play is using Stability in response to a boss tell that will do a group CC. In that context, it doesn’t matter if Stability lasts 4 seconds or 8 seconds. All that matters is you use it when you need it, or rather when you don’t use it when you don’t need it. Adding duration to Stability in PvE, for example, is simply another set of training wheels, security blanket, crutches for inexperienced players who don’t know what to do. Combining the security blanket of tanky stats with the security blanket of defensive boon duration isn’t promoting skillful play, its just making the game even easier for new players to make a deadly mistake in.

longer stability for skillfull play would be popping coordinating high% stability players stability to be able to use a team burst (might fury quickness)when normally a monster might require you to back off, or fall down, and a memer with boon duration bonus, using signet of inspiration to double the uptime of the stability stacks so you can still fight in a rockslide.

other people could just run to safe areas for substantially less effort.

wall of reflect lasting two seconds longer?, if timed excellently, right as he attacks, you may be able to get an extra hit of damage. or get extra vulnerability uptime by soaking an extra hits with light auras from the field.

there is usually some ways in which something that effects skills can be used skillfully for greater effect.

All of that is about precise timing of the skills we already have access to and has nothing to do with duration mattering or tanky gear mattering; which is exactly the point I made in my quoted text that you did nothing to counter. It’s time you just admit that it doesn’t promote skilled play and I pretty much turned your point.

being able to customize your duration of effects, can be the difference between getting two procs or one proc based on how well you time the effect.

for example. feedback, base duration of 6 seconds,
if by investing in stats i can get it up to 9 seconds, against monsters that hit once every 4 seconds, i can get 3 procs instead of two, but only if i time it to right before the first attack, if im a second off i only get two.

feedback is also an etheral field which i might use with my team to give an opponent more stacks of confusion, for more skills used.

and thats only the way it would interact with one skill on my bar.

Leo G.4501:

<snip>

I think you misunderstand my point on the hardmode. ALL I’m asking for is a version where downed = failure of the dungeon. If that’s too harsh, maybe just dead = failure, but still, in either case it’d really promote being more defensive as you can easily make things go from a 1 to 2 shot, and that’s HUGE. Because almost innately that will mean it’s actually a 3 shot if you use your heal between the first and second mistake suddenly it’s not that second hit but the third that downs you, space out your mistakes enough and you might even be able to heal up that second shot and go on to allow yourself 4…

The only situation where more dps becomes a much easier tactic is in content that can literally be blown up (looking at you AC/CM) For content like Lupi, not so much. Don’t believe me, take a look at this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qc-h49HeqU
Seems you can still have a decent kill time and make it so you don’t have to avoid everything.

maha.7902:

you appear to be in the no need for stat customization camp then.
So why do we have stats at all? why not just remove them?

oh don’t worry, I really wish they removed stats, it would have stopped a whole load of the insanity that gets posted on these boards every day if people didn’t get so uptight about stat prefixes.

personally, i like stat diversity when its well executed, it gives me many ways to play the game, and different things to try.

but, there is something to be said for very well balanced difficulties, and lower investment to achieve best case scenarios, like you might see in a fighting game/action game.

but it is well executed because you can use whatever stats you want and still beat content/ making defensive stats give equal (or similar) amount of reward to offensive stats is poor execution, hence why some people have qualms with the meta right now in league – you have super tanks who build straight defense who can duel people who build pure damage and still throw them in the trash can because their base damages are so high that they don’t need to build any sort of damage – or worse, their damage actually scales on their armour/health/magic resistance so you’re fully rewarded for building defensively.

in the context of league, it’s a necessary evil to do this to keep tanks in the meta since they need to actually be a threat when two teams fight otherwise they’ll be completely ignored by the damage carries on both teams, but this thread is of course about dungeons whereas league is pvp. in the context of dungeons, it’s like a warrior stacking toughness and vitality, and having traits that grant power, precision and ferocity equivalent to a certain % of their toughness/vitality, it would be stupid and rewards bad play.

its not well executed
stats effectiveness is uneven
They cant design a proper hp amount or damage recieved for enemies because the variation is so large.
which also effects enemy scaling like when they had to nerf queens pavillion enemies because the differences in gear made some scaled up bosses nigh unbeatable, then rebalanced to easily zergable.

we got the worst of both worlds.

phys.7689:

<snip>

I am not saying the game must have stat diversity, i am saying they already put stat diversity in the game, its just a really crappy execution.
so either, make stat diversity actually matter
or
remove stat diversity.

OR
you leave it as is, so that people can role-play as healers or tanks if they feel like and are still able to complete any kind of content they wish to complete, hmm?

Again: Optimal =/= viable

There is nothing wrong with that at all.

phys.7689:

<snip>

but, there is something to be said for very well balanced difficulties, and lower investment to achieve best case scenarios, like you might see in a fighting game/action game.
<snip>

Except that GW2 is not like a fighting or FPS game. You are comparing apples to oranges.

Seriously, why do try so desperately to justify such a MAJOR and unrealistic overhaul of the game´s stat system phys? Based on what we know about the upcoming stuff in HoT (Specializations, Mastery system etc.) the devs already try to make the gameplay more diversified (more traits, more weapons, more skills).

Then all we really need is some new instanced content with improved encounter design in the vein of Lupi, Mai or the Marionette and there you have your “challenging group content”, without having to break the current system by making changes for the sake of it.

stats effectiveness is uneven

how is this bad? why should stat effectiveness be even? why should I be able to build assassins in league with pure tank items and be equally as efficient in assassinating people as if I built full offense? you shouldn’t and therefore you can’t. just how you can’t build tanks with full damage otherwise you can’t fulfill your role as a fight initiator who soaks up damage.

They cant design a proper hp amount or damage recieved for enemies because the variation is so large.

except they can, and do. they can do flat amounts of damage and they can do percentage damage.

which also effects enemy scaling like when they had to nerf queens pavillion enemies because the differences in gear made some scaled up bosses nigh unbeatable, then rebalanced to easily zergable.

i’m pretty sure the queen’s pavilion was built to be as anti-zerg as possible last time round, in fact it was outright impossible to get gold reward if you zerged champions down.

Skoigoth.9238:

phys.7689:

<snip>

I am not saying the game must have stat diversity, i am saying they already put stat diversity in the game, its just a really crappy execution.
so either, make stat diversity actually matter
or
remove stat diversity.

OR
you leave it as is, so that people can role-play as healers or tanks if they feel like and are still able to complete any kind of content they wish to complete, hmm?

Again: Optimal =/= viable

There is nothing wrong with that at all.

phys.7689:

<snip>
but, there is something to be said for very well balanced difficulties, and lower investment to achieve best case scenarios, like you might see in a fighting game/action game.
<snip>

Except that GW2 is not like a fighting or FPS game. You are comparing apples to oranges.

Seriously, why do try so desperately to justify such a MAJOR and unrealistic overhaul of the game´s stat system phys? Based on what we know about the upcoming stuff in HoT (Specializations, Mastery system etc.) the devs already try to make the gameplay more diversified (more traits, more weapons, more skills).

Then all we really need is some new instanced content with improved encounter design in the vein of Lupi, Mai or the Marionette and there you have your “challenging group content”, without having to break the current system by making changes for the sake of it.

first of all in either system, stats effect skills, or stats cease to exist, people will be able to roleplay healers or tanks

If you are role playing a healer, why do you need stats? In a no stat system, role playing a healer would be about traits, runes, and skill selection.
If stats effect skills, you would be able to more interesting things with healing and support.

yes, my solutions are unrealistic, however, they have a real problem, which they will likely try to fix, and the more realistic solution?
more unavoidable damage
more gimmicks that require specific build sets to succeed

which i dont prefer at all. so yeah i ll suggest the better, but more difficult to implement solutions over the easy to impliment, but annoying solutions.

phys.7689:

spoj.9672:

You still havent explained how you got those numbers though. And like i said whatever numeric comparison you give is meaningless. Actual gameplay effectiveness is what matters. It doesnt matter if toughness gives you really poor returns compared to power. If toughness allows you to survive encounters with greater ease then it is effective at doing that.

ok ignore the numbers, thats fine, because its even worse when you look at how you describe for pve.

a highly skilled person with 100% toughness cannot survive better than a person with 100% power.

they can make more mistakes, but a highly skilled person does not make that many mistakes. toughness, vitality give no benefit for skillfull play. thats why the more skill full you get, the less useful the stats are.

now, i know you say this is always the case, but it is not. in other games, being a top of the line defender is about skillful play.

So.. greater skill = less need for defensive stats.
Inversely: lesser skill = greater need for defensive stats.

looks fine to me.

phys.7689:

NikeEU.7690:

phys.7689:

they can make more mistakes, but a highly skilled person does not make that many mistakes. toughness, vitality give no benefit for skillfull play. thats why the more skill full you get, the less useful the stats are.

And we see that as a good thing. The only possible objection is you want tanky stats to be equally good for experienced players for… the sake of getting to use gear with a different name. Who cares what the name of the gear is? Just use what is most effective based on your skill level.

I like being criticized for “defending the status quo.” Sure. Whatever. The implication being that if the system was to change the good players wouldn’t be adaptable and suddenly all the bad players who have their Soldiers set would become the best players in the game. Sadly for you guys, the good players would still be better than the bad players regardless. They would still finish content faster and more cleanly. There would still be elitism and there would still be a meta and there would still be build exclusion. None of the so-called problems of the “zerker meta” have anything to do with the gear, but are the simple result of community standards and regardless of what you do there will always be community standards.

you like to assume a lot, you like to be adversarial.

There is no implication, good players will be good players, that wont change, why would i want it to change? Changing stats wont change that.

This isnt about elitism, that has nothing to do with build variety, many other games have elitism, and they dont have berserker style play.

This is very simple:
the point of stat customization existing at all, should be to customize your game play and build, to work to create various playstyles. Thats the only reason you should put it in a game.

If the game is better off without stat customization, which is a position that may have merit, then TAKE OUT STAT CUSTOMIZATION.

the best argument for our current implementation of stat customization is that you can use it to set handicap.
you know whats better at setting handicaps?
a little meter you move over that sets your handicap.

So how about a difficulty slider that works like this:

0% damage reduction: 100% rewards.
100% damage reduction 0% rewards.

Oh, and everyone is basically in full zerker. Just with higher base stats instead of stats on gear.
How many are going to want to turn that slider down from 100% rewards?
How many are going to prefer this to being able to take different gear, and simply slow down the run in favor of making it easier?
note: this would come at the cost of dev time, reducing the content we get to play.

maha.7902:

stats effectiveness is uneven

how is this bad? why should stat effectiveness be even? why should I be able to build assassins in league with pure tank items and be equally as efficient in assassinating people as if I built full offense? you shouldn’t and therefore you can’t. just how you can’t build tanks with full damage otherwise you can’t fulfill your role as a fight initiator who soaks up damage.

They cant design a proper hp amount or damage recieved for enemies because the variation is so large.

except they can, and do. they can do flat amounts of damage and they can do percentage damage.

which also effects enemy scaling like when they had to nerf queens pavillion enemies because the differences in gear made some scaled up bosses nigh unbeatable, then rebalanced to easily zergable.

i’m pretty sure the queen’s pavilion was built to be as anti-zerg as possible last time round, in fact it was outright impossible to get gold reward if you zerged champions down.

when i say its uneven, i mean your gain from being say berserker and being say knights is uneven, the proportion of survivability increase is not equal to your damage decrease, which means there is no logical reason to use knights. you are more likely to fail. this is not the odd man out, almost every stat set is ineffecient compared to beserkers. in terms of what you get versus what you give up.

no they cant create a proper amount of HP
best case teams kill things so fast they are not really much of a threat
worst dps teams kill things so slow it takes forver
average people feel like bosses are big boring hp bags that have you doing the same thing for too long.

from what i remember queens pavilion they had to nerf one of the bosses healing and another bosses dmg scaling, or something.
by zerg, i mean how it scaled from 5 players (pretty easy) to 25 players (pretty hard for the ones i think they nerfed)

but i could be misremembering.

Artemis Thuras.8795:

phys.7689:

NikeEU.7690:

phys.7689:

they can make more mistakes, but a highly skilled person does not make that many mistakes. toughness, vitality give no benefit for skillfull play. thats why the more skill full you get, the less useful the stats are.

And we see that as a good thing. The only possible objection is you want tanky stats to be equally good for experienced players for… the sake of getting to use gear with a different name. Who cares what the name of the gear is? Just use what is most effective based on your skill level.

I like being criticized for “defending the status quo.” Sure. Whatever. The implication being that if the system was to change the good players wouldn’t be adaptable and suddenly all the bad players who have their Soldiers set would become the best players in the game. Sadly for you guys, the good players would still be better than the bad players regardless. They would still finish content faster and more cleanly. There would still be elitism and there would still be a meta and there would still be build exclusion. None of the so-called problems of the “zerker meta” have anything to do with the gear, but are the simple result of community standards and regardless of what you do there will always be community standards.

you like to assume a lot, you like to be adversarial.

There is no implication, good players will be good players, that wont change, why would i want it to change? Changing stats wont change that.

This isnt about elitism, that has nothing to do with build variety, many other games have elitism, and they dont have berserker style play.

This is very simple:
the point of stat customization existing at all, should be to customize your game play and build, to work to create various playstyles. Thats the only reason you should put it in a game.

If the game is better off without stat customization, which is a position that may have merit, then TAKE OUT STAT CUSTOMIZATION.

the best argument for our current implementation of stat customization is that you can use it to set handicap.
you know whats better at setting handicaps?
a little meter you move over that sets your handicap.

So how about a difficulty slider that works like this:

0% damage reduction: 100% rewards.
100% damage reduction 0% rewards.

Oh, and everyone is basically in full zerker. Just with higher base stats instead of stats on gear.
How many are going to want to turn that slider down from 100% rewards?
How many are going to prefer this to being able to take different gear, and simply slow down the run in favor of making it easier?
note: this would come at the cost of dev time, reducing the content we get to play.

i would have no problem with that slider at all.
devs are already spending time trying to figure out how to balance stats, and reworking things because stats have a large rng.

phys.7689:

Artemis Thuras.8795:

phys.7689:

NikeEU.7690:

phys.7689:

they can make more mistakes, but a highly skilled person does not make that many mistakes. toughness, vitality give no benefit for skillfull play. thats why the more skill full you get, the less useful the stats are.

And we see that as a good thing. The only possible objection is you want tanky stats to be equally good for experienced players for… the sake of getting to use gear with a different name. Who cares what the name of the gear is? Just use what is most effective based on your skill level.

I like being criticized for “defending the status quo.” Sure. Whatever. The implication being that if the system was to change the good players wouldn’t be adaptable and suddenly all the bad players who have their Soldiers set would become the best players in the game. Sadly for you guys, the good players would still be better than the bad players regardless. They would still finish content faster and more cleanly. There would still be elitism and there would still be a meta and there would still be build exclusion. None of the so-called problems of the “zerker meta” have anything to do with the gear, but are the simple result of community standards and regardless of what you do there will always be community standards.

you like to assume a lot, you like to be adversarial.

There is no implication, good players will be good players, that wont change, why would i want it to change? Changing stats wont change that.

This isnt about elitism, that has nothing to do with build variety, many other games have elitism, and they dont have berserker style play.

This is very simple:
the point of stat customization existing at all, should be to customize your game play and build, to work to create various playstyles. Thats the only reason you should put it in a game.

If the game is better off without stat customization, which is a position that may have merit, then TAKE OUT STAT CUSTOMIZATION.

the best argument for our current implementation of stat customization is that you can use it to set handicap.
you know whats better at setting handicaps?
a little meter you move over that sets your handicap.

So how about a difficulty slider that works like this:

0% damage reduction: 100% rewards.
100% damage reduction 0% rewards.

Oh, and everyone is basically in full zerker. Just with higher base stats instead of stats on gear.
How many are going to want to turn that slider down from 100% rewards?
How many are going to prefer this to being able to take different gear, and simply slow down the run in favor of making it easier?
note: this would come at the cost of dev time, reducing the content we get to play.

i would have no problem with that slider at all.
devs are already spending time trying to figure out how to balance stats, and reworking things because stats have a large rng.

stats have rng?
care to back that statement up?

edit: and btw: you already have that slider.
Knights gear = lower dps = longer kill times = less rewards in the same time.
gear is your slider. Its just not quite so obvious, or easy/cheap to change.
Open world being pretty screwed due to being reliant on everyone else in a zerg anyway ( reason for wanting more dungeons over this zerg bs).

Artemis Thuras.8795:

phys.7689:

spoj.9672:

You still havent explained how you got those numbers though. And like i said whatever numeric comparison you give is meaningless. Actual gameplay effectiveness is what matters. It doesnt matter if toughness gives you really poor returns compared to power. If toughness allows you to survive encounters with greater ease then it is effective at doing that.

ok ignore the numbers, thats fine, because its even worse when you look at how you describe for pve.

a highly skilled person with 100% toughness cannot survive better than a person with 100% power.

they can make more mistakes, but a highly skilled person does not make that many mistakes. toughness, vitality give no benefit for skillfull play. thats why the more skill full you get, the less useful the stats are.

now, i know you say this is always the case, but it is not. in other games, being a top of the line defender is about skillful play.

So.. greater skill = less need for defensive stats.
Inversely: lesser skill = greater need for defensive stats.

looks fine to me.

because you connect being defensive minded with being less skillfull.

that doesnt have to be the case.

Artemis Thuras.8795:

phys.7689:

Artemis Thuras.8795:

phys.7689:

NikeEU.7690:

phys.7689:

they can make more mistakes, but a highly skilled person does not make that many mistakes. toughness, vitality give no benefit for skillfull play. thats why the more skill full you get, the less useful the stats are.

And we see that as a good thing. The only possible objection is you want tanky stats to be equally good for experienced players for… the sake of getting to use gear with a different name. Who cares what the name of the gear is? Just use what is most effective based on your skill level.

I like being criticized for “defending the status quo.” Sure. Whatever. The implication being that if the system was to change the good players wouldn’t be adaptable and suddenly all the bad players who have their Soldiers set would become the best players in the game. Sadly for you guys, the good players would still be better than the bad players regardless. They would still finish content faster and more cleanly. There would still be elitism and there would still be a meta and there would still be build exclusion. None of the so-called problems of the “zerker meta” have anything to do with the gear, but are the simple result of community standards and regardless of what you do there will always be community standards.

you like to assume a lot, you like to be adversarial.

There is no implication, good players will be good players, that wont change, why would i want it to change? Changing stats wont change that.

This isnt about elitism, that has nothing to do with build variety, many other games have elitism, and they dont have berserker style play.

This is very simple:
the point of stat customization existing at all, should be to customize your game play and build, to work to create various playstyles. Thats the only reason you should put it in a game.

If the game is better off without stat customization, which is a position that may have merit, then TAKE OUT STAT CUSTOMIZATION.

the best argument for our current implementation of stat customization is that you can use it to set handicap.
you know whats better at setting handicaps?
a little meter you move over that sets your handicap.

So how about a difficulty slider that works like this:

0% damage reduction: 100% rewards.
100% damage reduction 0% rewards.

Oh, and everyone is basically in full zerker. Just with higher base stats instead of stats on gear.
How many are going to want to turn that slider down from 100% rewards?
How many are going to prefer this to being able to take different gear, and simply slow down the run in favor of making it easier?
note: this would come at the cost of dev time, reducing the content we get to play.

i would have no problem with that slider at all.
devs are already spending time trying to figure out how to balance stats, and reworking things because stats have a large rng.

stats have rng?
care to back that statement up?

i meant range not rng. as in the variation between stats requires them to spend extra time balancing, like they had to juggle a number of traits multiple times due to the stats attached to them.

and whenever they design a boss, they have to consider the large variation in dps between different stats.

ect.

phys.7689:

Artemis Thuras.8795:

phys.7689:

spoj.9672:

You still havent explained how you got those numbers though. And like i said whatever numeric comparison you give is meaningless. Actual gameplay effectiveness is what matters. It doesnt matter if toughness gives you really poor returns compared to power. If toughness allows you to survive encounters with greater ease then it is effective at doing that.

ok ignore the numbers, thats fine, because its even worse when you look at how you describe for pve.

a highly skilled person with 100% toughness cannot survive better than a person with 100% power.

they can make more mistakes, but a highly skilled person does not make that many mistakes. toughness, vitality give no benefit for skillfull play. thats why the more skill full you get, the less useful the stats are.

now, i know you say this is always the case, but it is not. in other games, being a top of the line defender is about skillful play.

So.. greater skill = less need for defensive stats.
Inversely: lesser skill = greater need for defensive stats.

looks fine to me.

because you connect being defensive minded with being less skillfull.

that doesnt have to be the case.

That doesn’t make any sense to me.

phys.7689:

Artemis Thuras.8795:

phys.7689:

Artemis Thuras.8795:

phys.7689:

NikeEU.7690:

phys.7689:

they can make more mistakes, but a highly skilled person does not make that many mistakes. toughness, vitality give no benefit for skillfull play. thats why the more skill full you get, the less useful the stats are.

And we see that as a good thing. The only possible objection is you want tanky stats to be equally good for experienced players for… the sake of getting to use gear with a different name. Who cares what the name of the gear is? Just use what is most effective based on your skill level.

I like being criticized for “defending the status quo.” Sure. Whatever. The implication being that if the system was to change the good players wouldn’t be adaptable and suddenly all the bad players who have their Soldiers set would become the best players in the game. Sadly for you guys, the good players would still be better than the bad players regardless. They would still finish content faster and more cleanly. There would still be elitism and there would still be a meta and there would still be build exclusion. None of the so-called problems of the “zerker meta” have anything to do with the gear, but are the simple result of community standards and regardless of what you do there will always be community standards.

you like to assume a lot, you like to be adversarial.

There is no implication, good players will be good players, that wont change, why would i want it to change? Changing stats wont change that.

This isnt about elitism, that has nothing to do with build variety, many other games have elitism, and they dont have berserker style play.

This is very simple:
the point of stat customization existing at all, should be to customize your game play and build, to work to create various playstyles. Thats the only reason you should put it in a game.

If the game is better off without stat customization, which is a position that may have merit, then TAKE OUT STAT CUSTOMIZATION.

the best argument for our current implementation of stat customization is that you can use it to set handicap.
you know whats better at setting handicaps?
a little meter you move over that sets your handicap.

So how about a difficulty slider that works like this:

0% damage reduction: 100% rewards.
100% damage reduction 0% rewards.

Oh, and everyone is basically in full zerker. Just with higher base stats instead of stats on gear.
How many are going to want to turn that slider down from 100% rewards?
How many are going to prefer this to being able to take different gear, and simply slow down the run in favor of making it easier?
note: this would come at the cost of dev time, reducing the content we get to play.

i would have no problem with that slider at all.
devs are already spending time trying to figure out how to balance stats, and reworking things because stats have a large rng.

stats have rng?
care to back that statement up?

i meant range not rng. as in the variation between stats requires them to spend extra time balancing, like they had to juggle a number of traits multiple times due to the stats attached to them.

and whenever they design a boss, they have to consider the large variation in dps between different stats.

ect.

so you want everyone forced onto one stat set?

I’ve already posted the problem with this before:
option 1 ( eg cele gear stats included in base stats):
You get so good at the game you have pointless defensive stats you don’t need, get bored and leave the game

option 2 ( eg berserker gear included in base stats):
It takes so long to learn every fight, you are forced to go watch video guides outside of game, or you quit and leave the game because you can’t get past the initial learning curve.

either way: people leave the game. GG company goes bust due to no clients. no more gw2. ( are you secretly a blizzard troll trying to pull people back to WoW?)

So. Given difficulty slider already exists in the form of gear.

what exactly are you proposing to “improve” the game?

phys.7689:

Artemis Thuras.8795:

phys.7689:

spoj.9672:

You still havent explained how you got those numbers though. And like i said whatever numeric comparison you give is meaningless. Actual gameplay effectiveness is what matters. It doesnt matter if toughness gives you really poor returns compared to power. If toughness allows you to survive encounters with greater ease then it is effective at doing that.

ok ignore the numbers, thats fine, because its even worse when you look at how you describe for pve.

a highly skilled person with 100% toughness cannot survive better than a person with 100% power.

they can make more mistakes, but a highly skilled person does not make that many mistakes. toughness, vitality give no benefit for skillfull play. thats why the more skill full you get, the less useful the stats are.

now, i know you say this is always the case, but it is not. in other games, being a top of the line defender is about skillful play.

So.. greater skill = less need for defensive stats.
Inversely: lesser skill = greater need for defensive stats.

looks fine to me.

because you connect being defensive minded with being less skillfull.

that doesnt have to be the case.

In a game without trinity it is.

Defensive minded players are there to get attacked and hold mob attention on them, that’s why they exist. In a game with dynamic action combat, defensive stats just give you a bit of extra survivability for when you make a mistake and mess up. So, since the defensive stats offer an extra layer of protection for player mistakes, it requires SLIGHTLY less skill to play with those stats.

And if you go all out in defensive gear you don’t even have to dodge attacks, there’ve been numerous videos on this thread alone showing what a full defensive party can do, facerolling through the hardest content without even dodging. How is that skillful?

phys.7689:

Artemis Thuras.8795:

phys.7689:

spoj.9672:

You still havent explained how you got those numbers though. And like i said whatever numeric comparison you give is meaningless. Actual gameplay effectiveness is what matters. It doesnt matter if toughness gives you really poor returns compared to power. If toughness allows you to survive encounters with greater ease then it is effective at doing that.

ok ignore the numbers, thats fine, because its even worse when you look at how you describe for pve.

a highly skilled person with 100% toughness cannot survive better than a person with 100% power.

they can make more mistakes, but a highly skilled person does not make that many mistakes. toughness, vitality give no benefit for skillfull play. thats why the more skill full you get, the less useful the stats are.

now, i know you say this is always the case, but it is not. in other games, being a top of the line defender is about skillful play.

So.. greater skill = less need for defensive stats.
Inversely: lesser skill = greater need for defensive stats.

looks fine to me.

because you connect being defensive minded with being less skillfull.

that doesnt have to be the case.

Whoa Whoa, big difference in your wording from what we’re saying. Bringing defensive gear allows less skillful play by giving you more of a safety net. This does not mean the same as being defensive minded. A full zerk guardian rotating Aegis/reflects to have their team go through the fight untouched is playing defensive minded, but doesn’t mean he has to tank up and grab Altruistic Healing to do that.

And using tankier gear doesn’t necessarily mean someone is less skilled, it simply means they chose to allow themselves to be less skillful. Less stressful play makes sense, complaining that your less stressful play isn’t as efficient as the more stressful play, well that doesn’t make as much sense.

maddoctor.2738:

phys.7689:

Artemis Thuras.8795:

phys.7689:

spoj.9672:

You still havent explained how you got those numbers though. And like i said whatever numeric comparison you give is meaningless. Actual gameplay effectiveness is what matters. It doesnt matter if toughness gives you really poor returns compared to power. If toughness allows you to survive encounters with greater ease then it is effective at doing that.

ok ignore the numbers, thats fine, because its even worse when you look at how you describe for pve.

a highly skilled person with 100% toughness cannot survive better than a person with 100% power.

they can make more mistakes, but a highly skilled person does not make that many mistakes. toughness, vitality give no benefit for skillfull play. thats why the more skill full you get, the less useful the stats are.

now, i know you say this is always the case, but it is not. in other games, being a top of the line defender is about skillful play.

So.. greater skill = less need for defensive stats.
Inversely: lesser skill = greater need for defensive stats.

looks fine to me.

because you connect being defensive minded with being less skillfull.

that doesnt have to be the case.

In a game without trinity it is.

Defensive minded players are there to get attacked and hold mob attention on them, that’s why they exist. In a game with dynamic action combat, defensive stats just give you a bit of extra survivability for when you make a mistake and mess up. So, since the defensive stats offer an extra layer of protection for player mistakes, it requires SLIGHTLY less skill to play with those stats.

And if you go all out in defensive gear you don’t even have to dodge attacks, there’ve been numerous videos on this thread alone showing what a full defensive party can do, facerolling through the hardest content without even dodging. How is that skillful?

Because the pros stack and 1 and they are pro, so doing that makes me pro too!

/sarcasm

Artemis Thuras.8795:

phys.7689:

Artemis Thuras.8795:

phys.7689:

spoj.9672:

You still havent explained how you got those numbers though. And like i said whatever numeric comparison you give is meaningless. Actual gameplay effectiveness is what matters. It doesnt matter if toughness gives you really poor returns compared to power. If toughness allows you to survive encounters with greater ease then it is effective at doing that.

ok ignore the numbers, thats fine, because its even worse when you look at how you describe for pve.

a highly skilled person with 100% toughness cannot survive better than a person with 100% power.

they can make more mistakes, but a highly skilled person does not make that many mistakes. toughness, vitality give no benefit for skillfull play. thats why the more skill full you get, the less useful the stats are.

now, i know you say this is always the case, but it is not. in other games, being a top of the line defender is about skillful play.

So.. greater skill = less need for defensive stats.
Inversely: lesser skill = greater need for defensive stats.

looks fine to me.

because you connect being defensive minded with being less skillfull.

that doesnt have to be the case.

That doesn’t make any sense to me.

ok, lets take a martial artist, being defensive means you have to react properly and know how to prevent various outcomes, it requires as much skill as being offensive.

basketball, playing defense well, is about timing, predicting your enemy, positioning etc, its pretty hard. they say, defense wins championships

tank in other games, requires as much skill as DPS or more.

street fighter 3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsgin-y8_J0

dude basically defends the entire combination attack of his enemy, high skill, defense.

in this game stats reward skilled offense
stats do not reward skilled defense.

just because someone may want to be a defensive player, doesnt mean they want to be inferior skill wise. However thats how the stat system currently works.

high defensive stats reason for existing is less about playstyle, and more about lower skill.

A defensive martial artist still practices his punches.
A defensive basketball player still does countless free throws and learns to run the offensive plays

Stats reward a good defender in GW2 by allowing him to more easily stack his offensive potential for when he does attack.

We don’t have one dimensional roles in GW2 any more than on a basketball team. A defender that can’t shoot isn’t going to get very far no matter how good at defense he is. I love good defensive minded players, they make things go so smooth with their correct use of blinds/reflects/aegis/condi clears, doesn’t mean they aren’t expected to contribute to the offense too.

maddoctor.2738:

phys.7689:

Artemis Thuras.8795:

phys.7689:

spoj.9672:

You still havent explained how you got those numbers though. And like i said whatever numeric comparison you give is meaningless. Actual gameplay effectiveness is what matters. It doesnt matter if toughness gives you really poor returns compared to power. If toughness allows you to survive encounters with greater ease then it is effective at doing that.

ok ignore the numbers, thats fine, because its even worse when you look at how you describe for pve.

a highly skilled person with 100% toughness cannot survive better than a person with 100% power.

they can make more mistakes, but a highly skilled person does not make that many mistakes. toughness, vitality give no benefit for skillfull play. thats why the more skill full you get, the less useful the stats are.

now, i know you say this is always the case, but it is not. in other games, being a top of the line defender is about skillful play.

So.. greater skill = less need for defensive stats.
Inversely: lesser skill = greater need for defensive stats.

looks fine to me.

because you connect being defensive minded with being less skillfull.

that doesnt have to be the case.

In a game without trinity it is.

Defensive minded players are there to get attacked and hold mob attention on them, that’s why they exist. In a game with dynamic action combat, defensive stats just give you a bit of extra survivability for when you make a mistake and mess up. So, since the defensive stats offer an extra layer of protection for player mistakes, it requires SLIGHTLY less skill to play with those stats.

And if you go all out in defensive gear you don’t even have to dodge attacks, there’ve been numerous videos on this thread alone showing what a full defensive party can do, facerolling through the hardest content without even dodging. How is that skillful?

incorrect
in this game without trinity it is.
In other games not so much.

i am not saying in this game defensive stats effect skilled play, i am saying they do not.

phys.7689:

Artemis Thuras.8795:

phys.7689:

Artemis Thuras.8795:

phys.7689:

spoj.9672:

You still havent explained how you got those numbers though. And like i said whatever numeric comparison you give is meaningless. Actual gameplay effectiveness is what matters. It doesnt matter if toughness gives you really poor returns compared to power. If toughness allows you to survive encounters with greater ease then it is effective at doing that.

ok ignore the numbers, thats fine, because its even worse when you look at how you describe for pve.

a highly skilled person with 100% toughness cannot survive better than a person with 100% power.

they can make more mistakes, but a highly skilled person does not make that many mistakes. toughness, vitality give no benefit for skillfull play. thats why the more skill full you get, the less useful the stats are.

now, i know you say this is always the case, but it is not. in other games, being a top of the line defender is about skillful play.

So.. greater skill = less need for defensive stats.
Inversely: lesser skill = greater need for defensive stats.

looks fine to me.

because you connect being defensive minded with being less skillfull.

that doesnt have to be the case.

That doesn’t make any sense to me.

ok, lets take a martial artist, being defensive means you have to react properly and know how to prevent various outcomes, it requires as much skill as being offensive.

basketball, playing defense well, is about timing, predicting your enemy, positioning etc, its pretty hard. they say, defense wins championships

tank in other games, requires as much skill as DPS or more.

street fighter 3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsgin-y8_J0

dude basically defends the entire combination attack of his enemy, high skill, defense.

in this game stats reward skilled offense
stats do not reward skilled defense.

just because someone may want to be a defensive player, doesnt mean they want to be inferior skill wise. However thats how the stat system currently works.

high defensive stats reason for existing is less about playstyle, and more about lower skill.

You misunderstand something. I love playing defensively in the game on so many encounters. I bring Wall of Reflection, Shield of the Avenger, use Hammer as Weapon, have the trait Absolute Resolution, and many other things to protect my party and play defensively.

Let’s use the same analogy you used, of the martial artist:
A Martial artist that is defending is using different moves (skills) than when attacking. If he uses some leather armor protection (toughness) or adds little spikes on his gloves (power) won’t change his moves, he can still defend or attack. And even in the most defensive situation, if he had to choose between adding extra damage on his fists or using some form of armor protection he might well go for the extra damage if he is skilled enough to avoid the blows altogether.

Jerus.4350:

A defensive martial artist still practices his punches.
A defensive basketball player still does countless free throws and learns to run the offensive plays

Stats reward a good defender in GW2 by allowing him to more easily stack his offensive potential for when he does attack.

We don’t have one dimensional roles in GW2 any more than on a basketball team. A defender that can’t shoot isn’t going to get very far no matter how good at defense he is. I love good defensive minded players, they make things go so smooth with their correct use of blinds/reflects/aegis/condi clears, doesn’t mean they aren’t expected to contribute to the offense too.

which is fine.
skill use wise, defensive play is rewarded, and they have some good traits to customize that.

stat wise though?
defensive stats do nothing interesting, and basically only work if you fail at actively handling enemies

stat wise on the DPS side?
huge boost to DPS, works just as well when you actively succeed.

really what im saying is that stats effects are very unbalanced and offer little real choice/depth. many of you guys like this, because you dont want to get multiple sets. Thats a fine argument for why stat diversity should not exist, but not a good reason why our current stat diversity is essentially not creating qualitative diversity

maddoctor.2738:

phys.7689:

Artemis Thuras.8795:

phys.7689:

Artemis Thuras.8795:

phys.7689:

spoj.9672:

You still havent explained how you got those numbers though. And like i said whatever numeric comparison you give is meaningless. Actual gameplay effectiveness is what matters. It doesnt matter if toughness gives you really poor returns compared to power. If toughness allows you to survive encounters with greater ease then it is effective at doing that.

ok ignore the numbers, thats fine, because its even worse when you look at how you describe for pve.

a highly skilled person with 100% toughness cannot survive better than a person with 100% power.

they can make more mistakes, but a highly skilled person does not make that many mistakes. toughness, vitality give no benefit for skillfull play. thats why the more skill full you get, the less useful the stats are.

now, i know you say this is always the case, but it is not. in other games, being a top of the line defender is about skillful play.

So.. greater skill = less need for defensive stats.
Inversely: lesser skill = greater need for defensive stats.

looks fine to me.

because you connect being defensive minded with being less skillfull.

that doesnt have to be the case.

That doesn’t make any sense to me.

ok, lets take a martial artist, being defensive means you have to react properly and know how to prevent various outcomes, it requires as much skill as being offensive.

basketball, playing defense well, is about timing, predicting your enemy, positioning etc, its pretty hard. they say, defense wins championships

tank in other games, requires as much skill as DPS or more.

street fighter 3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsgin-y8_J0

dude basically defends the entire combination attack of his enemy, high skill, defense.

in this game stats reward skilled offense
stats do not reward skilled defense.

just because someone may want to be a defensive player, doesnt mean they want to be inferior skill wise. However thats how the stat system currently works.

high defensive stats reason for existing is less about playstyle, and more about lower skill.

You misunderstand something. I love playing defensively in the game on so many encounters. I bring Wall of Reflection, Shield of the Avenger, use Hammer as Weapon, have the trait Absolute Resolution, and many other things to protect my party and play defensively.

Let’s use the same analogy you used, of the martial artist:
A Martial artist that is defending is using different moves (skills) than when attacking. If he uses some leather armor protection (toughness) or adds little spikes on his gloves (power) won’t change his moves, he can still defend or attack. And even in the most defensive situation, if he had to choose between adding extra damage on his fists or using some form of armor protection he might well go for the extra damage if he is skilled enough to avoid the blows altogether.

stats in a game are supposed to represent how you build yourself.

so its the difference between the martial artist who practices reacting to punches, creating openings after blocking, and training his body to take attacks so he can take advantage/create openings

versus someone who trained themselves to throw faster attacks, with more power, and throw them for longer.

these different types of training would create very different fighting styles, even with the same basic martial arts. And its based on the mind and preference of the martial artist, the defensive trained guy isnt training to make mistakes

phys.7689:

Skoigoth.9238:

<snip>

first of all in either system, stats effect skills, or stats cease to exist, people will be able to roleplay healers or tanks

If you are role playing a healer, why do you need stats? In a no stat system, role playing a healer would be about traits, runes, and skill selection.

Bad choice of words on my side, forgive me. I wasn´t talking about actual role playing (the term is often used sarcastically for people with PHIW-mentality). What I was trying to say is that a system as you suggested it wouldn´t add to that really, because you can already play such builds and be successful at doing stuff in this game. Removing or normalizing stats now, even if it probably would have been the right thing to do back when the game was in beta, would most certainly just take options away from these players and not add any (which would lead to even more QQ).

phys.7689:

If stats effect skills, you would be able to more interesting things with healing and support.

You can already do “interesting” stuff with healing (interesting is a rather subjective category if you ask me) and there is a reason pretty much ALL of the meta builds are support oriented.
So no, tieing the effectiveness of skills to stats wouldn´t make the game more interesting, if anything it would probably only make defensive builds even more defensive and vice versa with offensive builds.

phys.7689:

yes, my solutions are unrealistic, <snip>

Then it is pointless to argue about them any further, don´t you think?

“stats in a game are supposed to represent how you build yourself.”
- wrong. This is not a RPG MMO more an action mmo.

I can play defensively all day by running around in big circles at 600-900 range with perma swiftness ! I am now the master of defense ?

Except that people ARE choosing to take more defensive stat gear, because it makes it easier to learn the encounters. It provides a safety net. AKA difficulty slider.

Yes, gw2 favors the skilled by rewarding them with the ability to complete content faster and yield more reward in the time they have to play.
Yes defensive stats result in killing things slower. This is how your rewards are reduced. You can complete less in the time you have available.

so:
greater skill = less need for defensive stats = more reward*
lesser skill = greater need for defensive stats = less reward*

*within your play time frame.

Playing defensively does NOT mean playing unskillfully. But it does not mean you require defensive gear. It also doesn’t mean you can ONLY play defensively. Playstyle can switch even within a single fight.
There is no problem here.

You still haven’t explained how you suggest to improve things rather than drive players away.

tl:dr
It honestly seems like you want a completely different game. One where there are roles such as “tank” “dps” and “healer” which are much more clearly defined. As opposed to each and every player taking equal responsibility for each role.

I understand, its a radical shift in the way you play. It has a learning curve to it that is long. It requires much more adaptation and progressive thinking. It’s not for everyone.

Skoigoth.9238:

phys.7689:

Skoigoth.9238:

<snip>

first of all in either system, stats effect skills, or stats cease to exist, people will be able to roleplay healers or tanks

If you are role playing a healer, why do you need stats? In a no stat system, role playing a healer would be about traits, runes, and skill selection.

Bad choice of words on my side, forgive me. I wasn´t talking about actual role playing (the term is often used sarcastically for people with PHIW-mentality). What I was trying to say is that a system as you suggested it wouldn´t add to that really, because you can already play such builds and be successful at doing stuff in this game. Removing or normalizing stats now, even if it probably would have been the right thing to do back when the game was in beta, would most certainly just take options away from these players and not add any (which would lead to even more QQ).

phys.7689:

If stats effect skills, you would be able to more interesting things with healing and support.

You can already do “interesting” stuff with healing (interesting is a rather subjective category if you ask me) and there is a reason pretty much ALL of the meta builds are support oriented.
So no, tieing the effectiveness of skills to stats wouldn´t make the game more interesting, if anything it would probably only make defensive builds even more defensive and vice versa with offensive builds.

phys.7689:

yes, my solutions are unrealistic, <snip>

Then it is pointless to argue about them any further, don´t you think?

just because something is unrealistic doesnt mean its not a better answer. for example getting a new dungeon is very unrealstic, but i think its a better answer.

How interesting something is made by stats depends on how interestingly you design stat effects/interactions.

TPMN.1483:

“stats in a game are supposed to represent how you build yourself.”
- wrong. This is not a RPG MMO more an action mmo.

I can play defensively all day by running around in big circles at 600-900 range with perma swiftness ! I am now the master of defense ?

tons of succesful action games use stats, dark souls, secret of mana 3, most sports games, racing games. Devil may cry has stats building on different weapons.

TPMN.1483:

“stats in a game are supposed to represent how you build yourself.”
- wrong. This is not a RPG MMO more an action mmo.

I can play defensively all day by running around in big circles at 600-900 range with perma swiftness ! I am now the master of defense ?

Funny I do this quite often ( as guardian) with the ettin in the harpy fractal.
I keep his attention by being the only one attacking him and the occasional imob so he can’t rush to my party mates who are beating the daylights out of the fire shaman.
So i’m being aggressive toward the ettin, to defend my party from him.
I still do this tank playstyle in full zerker. However I start playing full aggressive to bring down the bunny and bomber. I will then switch back to aggressive when the shaman is dead to bring down the ettin ASAP.

Funny you mention Dark Souls in which tanky gear is also a difficulty slider. Thanks.

phys.7689:

Jerus.4350:

A defensive martial artist still practices his punches.
A defensive basketball player still does countless free throws and learns to run the offensive plays

Stats reward a good defender in GW2 by allowing him to more easily stack his offensive potential for when he does attack.

We don’t have one dimensional roles in GW2 any more than on a basketball team. A defender that can’t shoot isn’t going to get very far no matter how good at defense he is. I love good defensive minded players, they make things go so smooth with their correct use of blinds/reflects/aegis/condi clears, doesn’t mean they aren’t expected to contribute to the offense too.

which is fine.
skill use wise, defensive play is rewarded, and they have some good traits to customize that.

stat wise though?
defensive stats do nothing interesting, and basically only work if you fail at actively handling enemies

stat wise on the DPS side?
huge boost to DPS, works just as well when you actively succeed.

really what im saying is that stats effects are very unbalanced and offer little real choice/depth. many of you guys like this, because you dont want to get multiple sets. Thats a fine argument for why stat diversity should not exist, but not a good reason why our current stat diversity is essentially not creating qualitative diversity

What you describe in the first part is exactly why we have a meta and why multiple gear sets exist. They’re there to allow people to have options that allow mistakes. Meta is meta because you don’t need that and you gain more from offensive stats assuming you aren’t constantly splatting because you didn’t take your safety net.

And it’s exactly why our current system will not have a qualitative diversity. But, why is that a problem? Why is it an issue that the best option assuming you can handle it is a full glass setup? I still don’t understand why it’s a problem other than wanting extra complexity, which I can understand but there is beauty in simplicity as well.

Artemis Thuras.8795:

Except that people ARE choosing to take more defensive stat gear, because it makes it easier to learn the encounters. It provides a safety net. AKA difficulty slider.

Yes, gw2 favors the skilled by rewarding them with the ability to complete content faster and yield more reward in the time they have to play.
Yes defensive stats result in killing things slower. This is how your rewards are reduced. You can complete less in the time you have available.

so:
greater skill = less need for defensive stats = more reward*
lesser skill = greater need for defensive stats = less reward*

*within your play time frame.

Playing defensively does NOT mean playing unskillfully. But it does not mean you require defensive gear. It also doesn’t mean you can ONLY play defensively. Playstyle can switch even within a single fight.
There is no problem here.

You still haven’t explained how you suggest to improve things rather than drive players away.

tl:dr
It honestly seems like you want a completely different game. One where there are roles such as “tank” “dps” and “healer” which are much more clearly defined. As opposed to each and every player taking equal responsibility for each role.

I understand, its a radical shift in the way you play. It has a learning curve to it that is long. It requires much more adaptation and progressive thinking. It’s not for everyone.

once again you are trying to attribute to me things which have nothing to do with anything i have said

i do not prefer tank/dps/healer games at all.

your theory that berserk is the most difficult stat set to play is incorrect. being able to do so much more damage in fact makes fights easier, and makes it so you are less likely to make a mistake by having less opportunities to make a mistake.
knights, sentinels, shamans, giver, carrion, rabid, cavalier are all harder, because the survivability gain doesnt not match the amount longer you will have to defend.

it is however harder than nomads and clerics teams.

yes i know playing defensively doesnt require defensive gear, but playing offensively does. therefore one should almost always choose an offensive set.

once again, a lot of you guys are essentially saying stats should not really matter
except for doing damage, stats should definately matter for doing damage.

nope, playing offensively does not require offensive gear.
I can play offensively in clerics or even nomads gear.

Playing in “full zerker” is easy.
But then so is walking up to a boss and dying.
Playing it well is not easy. This is where the learning curve is much longer than you seem to realise.

also knights gear is not harder to play than zerker.
edit:
I’ve met a lot of people who can’t play well in any type of gear. Just to point that out.

Jerus.4350:

phys.7689:

Jerus.4350:

A defensive martial artist still practices his punches.
A defensive basketball player still does countless free throws and learns to run the offensive plays

Stats reward a good defender in GW2 by allowing him to more easily stack his offensive potential for when he does attack.

We don’t have one dimensional roles in GW2 any more than on a basketball team. A defender that can’t shoot isn’t going to get very far no matter how good at defense he is. I love good defensive minded players, they make things go so smooth with their correct use of blinds/reflects/aegis/condi clears, doesn’t mean they aren’t expected to contribute to the offense too.

which is fine.
skill use wise, defensive play is rewarded, and they have some good traits to customize that.

stat wise though?
defensive stats do nothing interesting, and basically only work if you fail at actively handling enemies

stat wise on the DPS side?
huge boost to DPS, works just as well when you actively succeed.

really what im saying is that stats effects are very unbalanced and offer little real choice/depth. many of you guys like this, because you dont want to get multiple sets. Thats a fine argument for why stat diversity should not exist, but not a good reason why our current stat diversity is essentially not creating qualitative diversity

What you describe in the first part is exactly why we have a meta and why multiple gear sets exist. They’re there to allow people to have options that allow mistakes. Meta is meta because you don’t need that and you gain more from offensive stats assuming you aren’t constantly splatting because you didn’t take your safety net.

And it’s exactly why our current system will not have a qualitative diversity. But, why is that a problem? Why is it an issue that the best option assuming you can handle it is a full glass setup? I still don’t understand why it’s a problem other than wanting extra complexity, which I can understand but there is beauty in simplicity as well.

you realize that there are number of stat sets that dont let you make more mistakes because the increase in survivability doesnt match up with how much longer you will be fighting the enemy right?
there only few of the many sets that actually make it easier.

thats one of the reasons the whole difficulty slider thing fails, because these stats are not really an accurate difficulty slider.

Sure some stat combos are weak/pointless.

Feel free to list which gear types you think need improving/removing.
Don’t forget for each to include a sentence as to why.

Artemis Thuras.8795:

nope, playing offensively does not require offensive gear.
I can play offensively in clerics or even nomads gear.

Playing in “full zerker” is easy.
But then so is walking up to a boss and dying.
Playing it well is not easy. This is where the learning curve is much longer than you seem to realise.

also knights gear is not harder to play than zerker.
edit:
I’ve met a lot of people who can’t play well in any type of gear. Just to point that out.

playing offensively without offensive gear will lower your damage by like 60% everything you do will be substantially less effective.

playing offensively in nomads and clerics gear is not playing offensively. because you are 60% lower than max effecincy

playing defensively in berserker can still have you at max effeciency, which is not taking enough damage to kill you.

playing in knights gear is harder than zerker if you play with a high skill level, because you will have to do everything longer. taking one extra hit does not negate the fact that you had to fight twice as long.
sometimes you dont even get one extra hit out of knights.

speaking of people who cant play well in any gear isnt really relevant.

“playing offensively without offensive gear will lower your damage by like 60% everything you do will be substantially less effective.”

-Doesn’t alter the play style.

“playing offensively in nomads and clerics gear is not playing offensively. because you are 60% lower than max effecincy”

-still, doesn’t change the play style.

“playing defensively in berserker can still have you at max effeciency, which is not taking enough damage to kill you.”

-not if you’re dying all the time. & playing defensively at all may not be optimal.

“playing in knights gear is harder than zerker IF you play with a high skill level, because you will have to do everything longer. taking one extra hit does not negate the fact that you had to fight twice as long.
sometimes you dont even get one extra hit out of knights.”

- that bolded & capitalized the key part of that sentence..
Inversely:
Playing in knights gear is easier than zerker unless you play with a high skill level

“speaking of people who cant play well in any gear isnt really relevant.”

So people who are still learning to play are irrelevant?
Elitist pot and kettle black.

phys.7689:

when i say its uneven, i mean your gain from being say berserker and being say knights is uneven, the proportion of survivability increase is not equal to your damage decrease, which means there is no logical reason to use knights. you are more likely to fail.

Weird I use to have knight gear and I never failed. You can use whatever gear and you can still complete all content so this is just not true.

Lets compare stats. Let’s have a 1 100 dmg weapon with 1000 power hit a target with 1000 armor. Skill coefficient of 1.

1 100 wps x 1 000 power * (1 / 1 000 armor) = 1 100 damage

Now we triple the power.

1100 × 3000 x (1/1000) = 3 300 damage so 3 times more damage.

Ok let get back to the initial situation and triple the armor instead.

1100 × 1000 x (1/3000) = 366.66 damage so 3 times less damage.

So I add 2000 power and I do 3 times the damage. I add 2000 toughness and I receive 3 times less the damage. What is uneven there?

Vitality? If you are a guardian adding 2000 vitality will make you 2.8 more resistant. While for a warrior you will be 2.1 more resistant. It’s less efficient than toughness against direct damage but it can’t be bypass by condition. So I find it pretty even there too.

Precision? Basic critical chance is 4% so you won’t hit of 1100 but 1122 instead with the 150% basic critical damage. If you add 2000 precision you end up almost at 100% crit chance and an overall damage of 1650 so 1.47 times the base damage. It seem not that even there true. They should boost precision no? Especially since there is a cap on it at 100%.

Critical Damage then. In the best scenario with a character that have 100% critical chance but zero critical damage you will hit of 1650 damage (still with 1100 for weapon and 1000 for power). Now we add 2000 ferocity or 133% critical damage.

1100 × 283% = 3113 damage which is 1.88 times more powerful than the initial number.

Of course these number are exemple and will change depending on how many stats you have at the start. Most of them will decrease in importance as you increase them, some won’t and other have a cap. But you see the picture. Your statement is just untrue. The proportion of survivability increase is SUPERIOR to your damage decrease. But active defense which is not affected by stats is more powerful than defensive stats. That’s the reason defensive stats is view as less meaningful than offensive stats. The stats themselves are perfect, but the design of the game emphasis on powerful active defense.

Defensive stats don’t need a fix. The only way to make them useful is to make them more useful than active defense, which will change drastically the whole game. If you want that, there is plenty of game for you, gw2 isn’t one of them.

If I go from zerk to Knight gear on a thief running a meta build I’d go from being dead to 1 lupi kick, to surviving it and being able to use my heal and such to recover.

Pretty big difference to me. And while you say it doesn’t allow more mistakes, that’s at the very least poor phrasing on your part, because that gear DOES allow more mistakes. Now whether you take so much longer that in the end those extra mistakes still aren’t enough for you or not, that’s up for debate, but it does allow for more mistakes. However, even in clerics gear you can do Lupi in a minute and a half, so I find it hard to believe that you’d be at a loss due to your defensive choices unless you tried to go condi with a whole group of people going condi… that’d just be silly, but that’s a whole other issue (condi’s).

To add to what Jerus said. People can solo about anything in the game in zerker gear and if you solo if that mean it’s 5 times longer (even more) than with a full group. If you can survive alone with zerker gear with more than 5x more times to make mistake, i’m pretty sure than 5 people in knight gear won’t have much difficulty to survive. Unless you are telling me that 5 ppl in knight gear do less damage than 1 guy in zerker?

Thaddeus.4891:

phys.7689:

when i say its uneven, i mean your gain from being say berserker and being say knights is uneven, the proportion of survivability increase is not equal to your damage decrease, which means there is no logical reason to use knights. you are more likely to fail.

Weird I use to have knight gear and I never failed. You can use whatever gear and you can still complete all content so this is just not true.

Lets compare stats. Let’s have a 1 100 dmg weapon with 1000 power hit a target with 1000 armor. Skill coefficient of 1.

1 100 wps x 1 000 power * (1 / 1 000 armor) = 1 100 damage

Now we triple the power.

1100 × 3000 x (1/1000) = 3 300 damage so 3 times more damage.

Ok let get back to the initial situation and triple the armor instead.

1100 × 1000 x (1/3000) = 366.66 damage so 3 times less damage.

So I add 2000 power and I do 3 times the damage. I add 2000 toughness and I receive 3 times less the damage. What is uneven there?

Vitality? If you are a guardian adding 2000 vitality will make you 2.8 more resistant. While for a warrior you will be 2.1 more resistant. It’s less efficient than toughness against direct damage but it can’t be bypass by condition. So I find it pretty even there too.

Precision? Basic critical chance is 4% so you won’t hit of 1100 but 1122 instead with the 150% basic critical damage. If you add 2000 precision you end up almost at 100% crit chance and an overall damage of 1650 so 1.47 times the base damage. It seem not that even there true. They should boost precision no? Especially since there is a cap on it at 100%.

Critical Damage then. In the best scenario with a character that have 100% critical chance but zero critical damage you will hit of 1650 damage (still with 1100 for weapon and 1000 for power). Now we add 2000 ferocity or 133% critical damage.

1100 × 283% = 3113 damage which is 1.88 times more powerful than the initial number.

Of course these number are exemple and will change depending on how many stats you have at the start. Most of them will decrease in importance as you increase them, some won’t and other have a cap. But you see the picture. Your statement is just untrue. The proportion of survivability increase is SUPERIOR to your damage decrease. But active defense which is not affected by stats is more powerful than defensive stats. That’s the reason defensive stats is view as less meaningful than offensive stats. The stats themselves are perfect, but the design of the game emphasis on powerful active defense.

Defensive stats don’t need a fix. The only way to make them useful is to make them more useful than active defense, which will change drastically the whole game. If you want that, there is plenty of game for you, gw2 isn’t one of them.

2000 toughness doesnt give you 3 times less damage
you have 926 toughness base, and 920-1200 armor
so you basically take half the damage
BUT not only that but defensive stats have nothing to do with active defense. So you only take half the damage from mistakes.
lets say you succesfully negate damage half the time.
you are now taking 75% damage but your only doing 33% as much damage.

over the course of the fight killing it 3 times faster is more effecient than reducing your damage by only 25%

vitality is innacurate

vitality only increases your intial survivability, not your continous survivability.

you may start with 2.8 times as much hp, but thats irrelevant after the first two attacks, after that point it is all about healing and toughness.

so yes surviability stats are very inferior.

NikeEU.7690:

Is the concept of Active Defense not “inherent to GW2”? The second the combat was designed around active defense, positioning and parry/blocks PvE was destined to be dominated by glass cannon builds among players at the skill/experience cap. It may not be exactly how the developers envisioned it, but it is the inevitable end result of that decision.

The concept of active defenses does not make glass king, the high power of the active defenses makes glass king.

Do you see the difference? It’s all in the numbers and the balance.

As your buddy noted, they’re not going to touch old content much, but we’re seeing the new content already impacting things — just not in a form where you’d want to have the ‘meta’ discussion.

If you take the current balance as the be-all and end-all and as what must be in the system, you’re making a pretty basic mistake.

Thaddeus.4891:

To add to what Jerus said. People can solo about anything in the game in zerker gear and if you solo if that mean it’s 5 times longer (even more) than with a full group. If you can survive alone with zerker gear with more than 5x more times to make mistake, i’m pretty sure than 5 people in knight gear won’t have much difficulty to survive. Unless you are telling me that 5 ppl in knight gear do less damage than 1 guy in zerker?

this is a very weird jump you made here.
i never said knights gear is incapable of succeeding, i said knights gear is not going to make a fight easier. because you will be fighting longer.

i dont really get how you compare 5 knights people to one zerker guy, yes, i would assume 5 people do more dmg than 1 guy? what does that have to do with anything?

phys.7689:

ok, lets take a martial artist, being defensive means you have to react properly and know how to prevent various outcomes, it requires as much skill as being offensive.

basketball, playing defense well, is about timing, predicting your enemy, positioning etc, its pretty hard. they say, defense wins championships

tank in other games, requires as much skill as DPS or more.

street fighter 3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsgin-y8_J0

dude basically defends the entire combination attack of his enemy, high skill, defense.

in this game stats reward skilled offense
stats do not reward skilled defense.

just because someone may want to be a defensive player, doesnt mean they want to be inferior skill wise. However thats how the stat system currently works.

high defensive stats reason for existing is less about playstyle, and more about lower skill.

As has to be noted when that clip comes up, he then goes on to lose the match and the tournament :p

And again, there are people that run some defensive stats for a variety of reasons;

Some are lazy sure (that’s the one that’s mentioned all the time)
Some enjoy the feeling of ‘wading in’ and feeling tough (which is a lot of people that run defensive stats)
Some are even using the systems in place and using stats to manage aggro (which does seem to work, if not entirely reliably).
Some can’t keep alive with pure glass stats and like to have that mitigating safety factor.
Some don’t know the high efficiency of the attack stats

One of those is ‘less skill’, the others certainly are not.

Also of note: most of those styles of play (that people enjoy) wouldn’t work without stat variations on equipment.

It’s not a matter of “ohh you’re in defensive gear, you must suck” while it may be a common response it’s a response of idiots. What it is though is “ohh you’re in defensive gear, well now you can suck and be fine”. It allows you to be less skilled, doesn’t require it.

If you choose to bring all the safety nets you can, that’s fine, but trying to say that choosing this should not punish you in any way… well it’s silly.

Windsagio.1340:

NikeEU.7690:

Is the concept of Active Defense not “inherent to GW2”? The second the combat was designed around active defense, positioning and parry/blocks PvE was destined to be dominated by glass cannon builds among players at the skill/experience cap. It may not be exactly how the developers envisioned it, but it is the inevitable end result of that decision.

The concept of active defenses does not make glass king, the high power of the active defenses makes glass king.

Do you see the difference? It’s all in the numbers and the balance.

As your buddy noted, they’re not going to touch old content much, but we’re seeing the new content already impacting things — just not in a form where you’d want to have the ‘meta’ discussion.

If you take the current balance as the be-all and end-all and as what must be in the system, you’re making a pretty basic mistake.

Active defense in this game is binary. You dodge or you don’t. You block or you don’t. You stand out of the arc of attack or red circle or you don’t. You can make content where those things are more challenging or less challenging to do, but those are binary actions.

Artemis Thuras.8795:

“playing offensively without offensive gear will lower your damage by like 60% everything you do will be substantially less effective.”

-Doesn’t alter the play style.

“playing offensively in nomads and clerics gear is not playing offensively. because you are 60% lower than max effecincy”

-still, doesn’t change the play style.

“playing defensively in berserker can still have you at max effeciency, which is not taking enough damage to kill you.”

Lol kind of the point. It doesn’t alter the playstyle which is the issue that could be changed.

But yeah you guys are posting a lot (most of it repeating the same thing). I’ll try to make some responds when I get home. . .