Guild Wars 2

spoj.9672:

Actually the devs have explicity called the majority of the community too stupid for certain features. Although not quite as bluntly. Im referring the the idea of allowing players to select combo field priority in options. The devs said they decided not to work on implementing such a feature because the skill base of the majority of players is too low. And most would not understand how to use it.

(was on almost 1yr break from GW2 so I missed a lot of stuff apparently)

I can see how new players can miss that as combo fields explanation is not that great in game but still having option for that (even if unlocked only at cap) was a great idea. I was never a big fan of hand-holding in games.

It’s still different than calling other players “names” for not agreeing with you (my DVR comment was more sarcastic than directed at anyone).

Windsagio.1340:

Actually had a discussion about this in one of the old ‘zerk’ threads, although it of course went sideways.

It’s relatively hard to run zerk in silverwastes. The creatures can easily mess you up (especially the vines and teragryphs). It’s not impossible, but it takes a lot more skill even than doing AC or CM for the umpteenth time.

The hard part for the instance oriented players looks to be that anet seems to think dungeons are a waste of resources (which would imply raids are doubly so). They essentially have to make content that can survive high player counts — excepting fractals, which they seem much more interested in updating.

I’m a fan of open world content so non-zerg Silverwaste maps are pretty fun for me (as returning player). Dry Top much less as I’m not biggest fan of the jumping puzzles (aka I suck at them)

Open world (if they ever fix zerg problem to some degree) / fractals split seems like a good compromise for the both crowds resource vise. Both groups will get at least something without creating content for just one.

I’d be interested in the quote about the combo field selection, I can think of other reasons it’d be iffy, so I’m curious to see their official reasoning.

@NoTrigger

After the hundreds of plays it might seem more that way yes. People are jaded and (if I may say) prone to be negative about this subject, and that warps views.

Windsagio.1340:

I’d be interested in the quote about the combo field selection, I can think of other reasons it’d be iffy, so I’m curious to see their official reasoning.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/archive/balance/PvX-My-blasts-prioritize-my-combo-fields/first#post3480522

The listed cons.

Windsagio.1340:

@NoTrigger

After the hundreds of plays it might seem more that way yes. People are jaded and (if I may say) prone to be negative about this subject, and that warps views.

but if fights like that existed in a game without a gear treadmill, why are people afraid?
why be against something, when you dont need to care about it (dont need to play it)?
to me that doesnt make any sense and the only reason for such a behavior is entitlement and egoism.

actually gw2 has the most entitled community ive ever seen in the history of seeing gaming communitys.

NoTrigger.8396:

Windsagio.1340:

@NoTrigger

After the hundreds of plays it might seem more that way yes. People are jaded and (if I may say) prone to be negative about this subject, and that warps views.

but if fights like that existed in a game without a gear treadmill, why are people afraid?
why be against something, when you dont need to care about it (dont need to play it)?
to me that doesnt make any sense and the only reason for such a behavior is entitlement and egoism.

actually gw2 has the most entitled community ive ever seen in the history of seeing gaming communitys.

Wanna hear my interpretation? (You get to :p)

It’s because people were burned and annoyed by previous MMOs. Only the most engaged (on either side) take part in this particular discussion, and for each person that has had very positive experiences with it, there’s one who has had very negative experiences. The vast so-so majority simply don’t post on the subject (and mostly don’t come onto the forums at all).

It might not be entirely rational, but to me at least it’s understandable.

There’s a more legit second reason, but I honestly think it’s not a primary motivator for most people: Encounter design is actually pulling out of a limited resource bucket. People naturally don’t want encounters not designed for them to be made at the cost of encounters that are designed for them. Dungeons are a bit of a hot spot for that because they’re very resource intensive.

~~~

As an extension of the first point, and something I’ve referenced above, dungeon people really don’t do themselves any favors. Being combative, calling people that disagree “BADS”, blaming others for failures, there’s a whole schedule of negative behaviors that can be pretty closely linked to ‘serious dungeon running’, and ‘serious dungeon running’ tends to be linked in peoples minds with wanting harder content (which naturally excludes the “BADS”)

I certainly fail at this too, but if you (universal you, no one in specific) act like a jerk while promoting a particular POV, people get negative associations with that POV and are more likely to want to fight it.

NoTrigger.8396:

actually gw2 has the most entitled community ive ever seen in the history of seeing gaming communitys.

I’d actually say GW2 has the most intolerant and close-minded community I’ve encountered. Entitlement tends to be on a case-by-case basis since it also depends on context. Like, seems those that fervently defend PvE meta and speed runs think they’re entitled to some sort of upper status where they should somehow have more weight to their opinion.

But as far as intolerant and close-minded, I see it reflected in-game and on the forums. It often results in lots of wasted discussion and effort.

defending the pve meta has nothing to do with entitlement. defending the pve meta only means one thing, you are smart enough to understand the game.

nice try tho.

Windsagio.1340:

~~~

Part of it also is to tune the damage so that high Toughness or Vitality makes a meaningful difference. There’s an old (largely incorrect for most content) saying that ‘it doesn’t matter because every class is a 1 or 2 hit anyways’. If zerk were 1hit and required perfect play, and knights were 4hit and had some breathing room, you’d see a lot more knights

While still allowing the top players with perfect reflexes to play pure zerk for their speed runs and to get more advantage in props and gold/hour for their skill.

I’m pretty sure that the same people complaining about the zerk meta, would be still complaining about zerk if they increased the difficulty of surviving as zerk. Whether they admit it or not, the complaints are because people exist that are able to clear content/get rewards at a faster pace and that people have gradually begun to expect that content be cleared at that faster pace. They don’t like being pressured to go faster/be more skilled. They feel excluded when they don’t meet those expectations.

This is going to be the same thing that happens as players get used to a new difficulty level. More and more players will adapt to the new difficulty, just like when the game first launched and people gradually migrated to zerk after learning the content. What would be the point of that? All you would have accomplished is slowing down the part of the casual player base that enjoys zerk gear. Yes, it would provide more challenge for hard core players for a while, but don’t forget this is a casual game…that’s ANET’s target consumer base.

ANET’s philosophy of having all builds able to clear content is in direct conflict with the constant, biased suggestion people keep making of increasing incoming damage. There is only one possible goal for people who suggest this…to try and find a way to keep zerk players from enjoying the content. Its already at the point where lots of zerk builds are one shot if they make a mistake…or very close to a one shot. Its already the case that high toughness/vit builds are not one shot on the majority of those same mistakes. What exactly are you looking for when you suggest this? ANET has already caved multiple times to reducing incoming damage on encounters with excessive one shots for casual complaints. Why would they do the exact opposite of this…just to try and exclude a group of players from enjoying the content? That would be like expecting them to introduce more content with enrage timers…specifically to discourage nomad gear. Both extremes would be equally bad as they would be only implemented to make their players in certain gear fail at content completion.

Leo G.4501:

NoTrigger.8396:

actually gw2 has the most entitled community ive ever seen in the history of seeing gaming communitys.

I’d actually say GW2 has the most intolerant and close-minded community I’ve encountered. Entitlement tends to be on a case-by-case basis since it also depends on context. Like, seems those that fervently defend PvE meta and speed runs think they’re entitled to some sort of upper status where they should somehow have more weight to their opinion.

But as far as intolerant and close-minded, I see it reflected in-game and on the forums. It often results in lots of wasted discussion and effort.

Can be seen on both sides of most arguments unfortunately.

Said it before and I’ll say it again, I enjoy the current GW2 system because it puts your tools on easily changeable tools, with gear in PVE mainly being a difficulty slider, both allowing less skills/active/whatever players to get by by beefing up a bit, and players can glass up and doing so is rewarded with faster kill times. These two people can group together and they both have their individual difficulty, I think it’s a pretty great setup.

On top of that by keeping most of the game based around actively defending yourself it keeps a player engaged. I played MMOs way back, and the reason I quit my first MMO completely after YEARS of always coming back was because it got boring, playing was too much based around using the correct setup and not enough to actively do. So I’d be doing raids half afk, and the one reaction I’d have to make every couple mins I’d only ever miss because I was so bored I stopped paying attention. So I like this setup. Some attrition based mechanics could perhaps encourage more tanky setups, but the flip side to attrition based mechanics is that you can also simply stack the dps and burn through it. So I’m not an overly big fan of those.

Again I’ll say if tank gear is something they want to make popular, they could put out “hard modes” that are unforgiving in that once you’re downed you’re dead and there’s no coming back. Perfect runs are required. Doing that and you’d have a lot of people loading up their safety nets again, only the especially brave would continue to glass up and believe they can handle it without a mistake.

NoTrigger.8396:

defending the pve meta has nothing to do with entitlement. defending the pve meta only means one thing, you are smart enough to understand the game.

nice try tho.

Defending the meta has nothing to do with understanding the game, and everything to do with defending a status quo that you’re comfortable with.

There’s nothing inherent to GW2 that says “ZERKER MUST BE SUPREME”, except the encounters are set up in such a way that that’s the case.

It’s not a moral or design value, it’s just (as I said) the status quo.

ODB.6891:

Windsagio.1340:

~~~

Part of it also is to tune the damage so that high Toughness or Vitality makes a meaningful difference. There’s an old (largely incorrect for most content) saying that ‘it doesn’t matter because every class is a 1 or 2 hit anyways’. If zerk were 1hit and required perfect play, and knights were 4hit and had some breathing room, you’d see a lot more knights

While still allowing the top players with perfect reflexes to play pure zerk for their speed runs and to get more advantage in props and gold/hour for their skill.

I’m pretty sure that the same people complaining about the zerk meta, would be still complaining about zerk if they increased the difficulty of surviving as zerk. Whether they admit it or not, the complaints are because people exist that are able to clear content/get rewards at a faster pace and that people have gradually begun to expect that content be cleared at that faster pace. They don’t like being pressured to go faster/be more skilled. They feel excluded when they don’t meet those expectations.

This is going to be the same thing that happens as players get used to a new difficulty level. More and more players will adapt to the new difficulty, just like when the game first launched and people gradually migrated to zerk after learning the content. What would be the point of that? All you would have accomplished is slowing down the part of the casual player base that enjoys zerk gear. Yes, it would provide more challenge for hard core players for a while, but don’t forget this is a casual game…that’s ANET’s target consumer base.

ANET’s philosophy of having all builds able to clear content is in direct conflict with the constant, biased suggestion people keep making of increasing incoming damage. There is only one possible goal for people who suggest this…to try and find a way to keep zerk players from enjoying the content. Its already at the point where lots of zerk builds are one shot if they make a mistake…or very close to a one shot. Its already the case that high toughness/vit builds are not one shot on the majority of those same mistakes. What exactly are you looking for when you suggest this? ANET has already caved multiple times to reducing incoming damage on encounters with excessive one shots for casual complaints. Why would they do the exact opposite of this…just to try and exclude a group of players from enjoying the content? That would be like expecting them to introduce more content with enrage timers…specifically to discourage nomad gear. Both extremes would be equally bad as they would be only implemented to make their players in certain gear fail at content completion.

You did a little transfer in there, that I’m not sure is really valid: “ey don’t like being pressured to go faster/be more skilled.” That isn’t a “/”, it’s an opinion. In many cases they just don’t want to go faster, and don’t like getting yelled at for it.

Jerus.4350:

Leo G.4501:

NoTrigger.8396:

actually gw2 has the most entitled community ive ever seen in the history of seeing gaming communitys.

I’d actually say GW2 has the most intolerant and close-minded community I’ve encountered. Entitlement tends to be on a case-by-case basis since it also depends on context. Like, seems those that fervently defend PvE meta and speed runs think they’re entitled to some sort of upper status where they should somehow have more weight to their opinion.

But as far as intolerant and close-minded, I see it reflected in-game and on the forums. It often results in lots of wasted discussion and effort.

Can be seen on both sides of most arguments unfortunately.

Said it before and I’ll say it again, I enjoy the current GW2 system because it puts your tools on easily changeable tools, with gear in PVE mainly being a difficulty slider, both allowing less skills/active/whatever players to get by by beefing up a bit, and players can glass up and doing so is rewarded with faster kill times. These two people can group together and they both have their individual difficulty, I think it’s a pretty great setup.

On top of that by keeping most of the game based around actively defending yourself it keeps a player engaged. I played MMOs way back, and the reason I quit my first MMO completely after YEARS of always coming back was because it got boring, playing was too much based around using the correct setup and not enough to actively do. So I’d be doing raids half afk, and the one reaction I’d have to make every couple mins I’d only ever miss because I was so bored I stopped paying attention. So I like this setup. Some attrition based mechanics could perhaps encourage more tanky setups, but the flip side to attrition based mechanics is that you can also simply stack the dps and burn through it. So I’m not an overly big fan of those.

Again I’ll say if tank gear is something they want to make popular, they could put out “hard modes” that are unforgiving in that once you’re downed you’re dead and there’s no coming back. Perfect runs are required. Doing that and you’d have a lot of people loading up their safety nets again, only the especially brave would continue to glass up and believe they can handle it without a mistake.

its not really a pure difficulty slider

the game is actually probably hardest when your gear is in the middle.
because truth is, high dps does make fights easier
high defense also makes it easier

being in the middle? you fight long enough to make more mistakes, and mistakes can kill you.

i still say its a crappy difficulty slider and if thats the purpose they should design a real one.

stats should change how you play/how effective you are at various playstyles
or they shouldnt exist.

phys.7689:

Jerus.4350:

Leo G.4501:

NoTrigger.8396:

actually gw2 has the most entitled community ive ever seen in the history of seeing gaming communitys.

I’d actually say GW2 has the most intolerant and close-minded community I’ve encountered. Entitlement tends to be on a case-by-case basis since it also depends on context. Like, seems those that fervently defend PvE meta and speed runs think they’re entitled to some sort of upper status where they should somehow have more weight to their opinion.

But as far as intolerant and close-minded, I see it reflected in-game and on the forums. It often results in lots of wasted discussion and effort.

Can be seen on both sides of most arguments unfortunately.

Said it before and I’ll say it again, I enjoy the current GW2 system because it puts your tools on easily changeable tools, with gear in PVE mainly being a difficulty slider, both allowing less skills/active/whatever players to get by by beefing up a bit, and players can glass up and doing so is rewarded with faster kill times. These two people can group together and they both have their individual difficulty, I think it’s a pretty great setup.

On top of that by keeping most of the game based around actively defending yourself it keeps a player engaged. I played MMOs way back, and the reason I quit my first MMO completely after YEARS of always coming back was because it got boring, playing was too much based around using the correct setup and not enough to actively do. So I’d be doing raids half afk, and the one reaction I’d have to make every couple mins I’d only ever miss because I was so bored I stopped paying attention. So I like this setup. Some attrition based mechanics could perhaps encourage more tanky setups, but the flip side to attrition based mechanics is that you can also simply stack the dps and burn through it. So I’m not an overly big fan of those.

Again I’ll say if tank gear is something they want to make popular, they could put out “hard modes” that are unforgiving in that once you’re downed you’re dead and there’s no coming back. Perfect runs are required. Doing that and you’d have a lot of people loading up their safety nets again, only the especially brave would continue to glass up and believe they can handle it without a mistake.

its not really a pure difficulty slider

the game is actually probably hardest when your gear is in the middle.
because truth is, high dps does make fights easier
high defense also makes it easier

being in the middle? you fight long enough to make more mistakes, and mistakes can kill you.

i still say its a crappy difficulty slider and if thats the purpose they should design a real one.

stats should change how you play/how effective you are at various playstyles
or they shouldnt exist.

No they shouldn’t change how you play. Stats in the game do NOT affect your playstyle at all, it’s the rest of the build that defines the playstyle and the role, skills, traits and weapon choices. Currently the only exception to this rule is the difference between condition build and power build, other than that you can do anything you want with any gear stats you want. That’s one of the best things about this game.

It allows players to change their builds on the fly to adapt to any situation, without having a huge part of the inventory filled up by different gear sets. Good players are already utilizing most of the available weapons. Take for example a Guardian, all weapons except for the Shield have a use in the game and make certain encounters faster / smoother.

Why lock the player on specific builds / weapons with specific stats? Why limit player choice and variety?

Hello everyone.
These are the things I would like to change with Dungeons:

1. Return the old style items with invisibility back to their normal stance – when they had no cooldown (I really don’t care if they could make PVE Dungeons (or PVE content) more easier – I just like when you have more than one way to go thru*)
Harpy Feathers [&AgE8IgAA]
Ash Legion Spy Kit [&AgHuIQAA]
Order of Whispers Spy Kit [&AgFhIgAA]

2. Makes players to able to use condition damage builds in PVE dungeons ‘cause its sound like nonsense when you can be kicked only because you use none-berserker or even play without direct damage oriented gear.

3. As for the Fractals (it’s also PVE dungeons) – can you please destroy Your 4-dungeons-system and replace it with 1-great strong and difficult dungeon? I really hate when “you” waste your time and have nothing in the end because of players you are playing with.

Make the game be more player-oriented and less based on “how We want You to play”. Think of it ‘cause sometimes you destroy everything we like and enjoy.

NoTrigger.8396:

defending the pve meta has nothing to do with entitlement. defending the pve meta only means one thing, you are smart enough to understand the game.

nice try tho.

But the pve meta doesn’t need to be defended, it just exists and changed as the game exists. Those that created the meta continue to change it and will keep doing so as the game changes. Basically, most people who note issues aren’t against the meta but there are those that defend aspects of it that feel entitled to some sort of forum war which does nothing to educate or inform nor understand and consider if things could change for the better.

And being smart has nothing to do with it. Lots of those defensive posters don’t even know what they are defending.

maddoctor.2738:

phys.7689:

Jerus.4350:

Leo G.4501:

NoTrigger.8396:

actually gw2 has the most entitled community ive ever seen in the history of seeing gaming communitys.

I’d actually say GW2 has the most intolerant and close-minded community I’ve encountered. Entitlement tends to be on a case-by-case basis since it also depends on context. Like, seems those that fervently defend PvE meta and speed runs think they’re entitled to some sort of upper status where they should somehow have more weight to their opinion.

But as far as intolerant and close-minded, I see it reflected in-game and on the forums. It often results in lots of wasted discussion and effort.

Can be seen on both sides of most arguments unfortunately.

Said it before and I’ll say it again, I enjoy the current GW2 system because it puts your tools on easily changeable tools, with gear in PVE mainly being a difficulty slider, both allowing less skills/active/whatever players to get by by beefing up a bit, and players can glass up and doing so is rewarded with faster kill times. These two people can group together and they both have their individual difficulty, I think it’s a pretty great setup.

On top of that by keeping most of the game based around actively defending yourself it keeps a player engaged. I played MMOs way back, and the reason I quit my first MMO completely after YEARS of always coming back was because it got boring, playing was too much based around using the correct setup and not enough to actively do. So I’d be doing raids half afk, and the one reaction I’d have to make every couple mins I’d only ever miss because I was so bored I stopped paying attention. So I like this setup. Some attrition based mechanics could perhaps encourage more tanky setups, but the flip side to attrition based mechanics is that you can also simply stack the dps and burn through it. So I’m not an overly big fan of those.

Again I’ll say if tank gear is something they want to make popular, they could put out “hard modes” that are unforgiving in that once you’re downed you’re dead and there’s no coming back. Perfect runs are required. Doing that and you’d have a lot of people loading up their safety nets again, only the especially brave would continue to glass up and believe they can handle it without a mistake.

its not really a pure difficulty slider

the game is actually probably hardest when your gear is in the middle.
because truth is, high dps does make fights easier
high defense also makes it easier

being in the middle? you fight long enough to make more mistakes, and mistakes can kill you.

i still say its a crappy difficulty slider and if thats the purpose they should design a real one.

stats should change how you play/how effective you are at various playstyles
or they shouldnt exist.

No they shouldn’t change how you play. Stats in the game do NOT affect your playstyle at all, it’s the rest of the build that defines the playstyle and the role, skills, traits and weapon choices. Currently the only exception to this rule is the difference between condition build and power build, other than that you can do anything you want with any gear stats you want. That’s one of the best things about this game.

It allows players to change their builds on the fly to adapt to any situation, without having a huge part of the inventory filled up by different gear sets. Good players are already utilizing most of the available weapons. Take for example a Guardian, all weapons except for the Shield have a use in the game and make certain encounters faster / smoother.

Why lock the player on specific builds / weapons with specific stats? Why limit player choice and variety?

I said OR, because there should only be two options

Stats SHOULD effect the way you play, because that is the point of customizable stats.
if you have customizable stats, it should effect the way you play the game.

OR

stats should not exist, for some of the reasons you mentioned.

What is the point of stat customization as it is in the game now? Really, what purpose does it actually serve in the game.

Yes stats should never have been implemented. But its too late now.

And the point of stats in this game is not to change the way you play. Its to change the effectiveness of various passive parts of the system. Its a build supplementor. Not a build changer.

Jerus.4350:

Vargamonth.2047:

cthaeh.2168:

Ha! Try sending 5 new players into a dungeon in full zerk and see how well they do. It is skill based, it’s just that everyone has spent the past 3 years honing said skills.

Maybe it’s time then to develop something that plays slightly different.
Something where, even if knowledge, experience and muscle memory still help in the long run, it’s not enough to completely dominate the content.

So you want AI that learns your tactics and constantly adjust to maintain a certain level of difficulty? If you can come up with how to do that for a video game, props, people have been trying… of course if anyone were ever successful it might also just flop because people don’t always like getting punched in the face. It’s generally not the punches people enjoy, but learning how to do better each time and the success of finally beating it.

They made an effort doing this with fractal level effects, they just kept it static across all of them so it was easily learned (and some avoided altogether).

They don’t need to learn your moves, they just need to react to certain things in a different manner rather than have the same, “I punch you there and you jump up and down to hurt me”. I’m sure they can make some creative mechanics to cycle through it’s just most bosses people encounter are open world where it’s just AoE’s and heavy projectiles that people block/reflect. Nothing really that crazy but it’s been getting better.

maddoctor.2738:

phys.7689:

Jerus.4350:

Leo G.4501:

NoTrigger.8396:

actually gw2 has the most entitled community ive ever seen in the history of seeing gaming communitys.

I’d actually say GW2 has the most intolerant and close-minded community I’ve encountered. Entitlement tends to be on a case-by-case basis since it also depends on context. Like, seems those that fervently defend PvE meta and speed runs think they’re entitled to some sort of upper status where they should somehow have more weight to their opinion.

But as far as intolerant and close-minded, I see it reflected in-game and on the forums. It often results in lots of wasted discussion and effort.

Can be seen on both sides of most arguments unfortunately.

Said it before and I’ll say it again, I enjoy the current GW2 system because it puts your tools on easily changeable tools, with gear in PVE mainly being a difficulty slider, both allowing less skills/active/whatever players to get by by beefing up a bit, and players can glass up and doing so is rewarded with faster kill times. These two people can group together and they both have their individual difficulty, I think it’s a pretty great setup.

On top of that by keeping most of the game based around actively defending yourself it keeps a player engaged. I played MMOs way back, and the reason I quit my first MMO completely after YEARS of always coming back was because it got boring, playing was too much based around using the correct setup and not enough to actively do. So I’d be doing raids half afk, and the one reaction I’d have to make every couple mins I’d only ever miss because I was so bored I stopped paying attention. So I like this setup. Some attrition based mechanics could perhaps encourage more tanky setups, but the flip side to attrition based mechanics is that you can also simply stack the dps and burn through it. So I’m not an overly big fan of those.

Again I’ll say if tank gear is something they want to make popular, they could put out “hard modes” that are unforgiving in that once you’re downed you’re dead and there’s no coming back. Perfect runs are required. Doing that and you’d have a lot of people loading up their safety nets again, only the especially brave would continue to glass up and believe they can handle it without a mistake.

its not really a pure difficulty slider

the game is actually probably hardest when your gear is in the middle.
because truth is, high dps does make fights easier
high defense also makes it easier

being in the middle? you fight long enough to make more mistakes, and mistakes can kill you.

i still say its a crappy difficulty slider and if thats the purpose they should design a real one.

stats should change how you play/how effective you are at various playstyles
or they shouldnt exist.

No they shouldn’t change how you play. Stats in the game do NOT affect your playstyle at all, it’s the rest of the build that defines the playstyle and the role, skills, traits and weapon choices. Currently the only exception to this rule is the difference between condition build and power build, other than that you can do anything you want with any gear stats you want. That’s one of the best things about this game.

It allows players to change their builds on the fly to adapt to any situation, without having a huge part of the inventory filled up by different gear sets. Good players are already utilizing most of the available weapons. Take for example a Guardian, all weapons except for the Shield have a use in the game and make certain encounters faster / smoother.

Why lock the player on specific builds / weapons with specific stats? Why limit player choice and variety?

Not true. There are times for shield to be pulled out too.

spoj.9672:

Yes stats should never have been implemented. But its too late now.

And the point of stats in this game is not to change the way you play. Its to change the effectiveness of various passive parts of the system. Its a build supplementor. Not a build changer.

as a build supplementor it is extremely poorly balanced to the point of being useless/deceptive.

givers: Become 40% tougher. heal for 15% more boons last 6% longer overall, lets say 50% more survivable. heck lets make it 60% you are about 20% (better at supporting.

zerker:
117% more base dmg 35% more chance to crit 50% more damage per crit
something like 200% more damage?

thats a really crappy supplement compared to berserker. which is why it sucks as a supplement, its illogical to select anything but berzerker.
and whats even worse? in game design, passive survival is less useful to begin with. so its actually an ever worse tradeoff.

so basically, stat customization is a lie at supplementing your build.
And thats why there is always this rage. anyone who didnt pick berserk realizes eventually, that their stat points are straight up inferior. not just from a gameplay perspective, but in raw numbers, just inferior.

phys.7689:

spoj.9672:

Yes stats should never have been implemented. But its too late now.

And the point of stats in this game is not to change the way you play. Its to change the effectiveness of various passive parts of the system. Its a build supplementor. Not a build changer.

as a build supplementor it is extremely poorly balanced to the point of being useless/deceptive.

givers: Become 40% tougher. heal for 15% more boons last 6% longer overall, lets say 50% more survivable. heck lets make it 60% you are about 20% (better at supporting.

zerker:
117% more base dmg 35% more chance to crit 50% more damage per crit
something like 200% more damage?

thats a really crappy supplement compared to berserker. which is why it sucks as a supplement, its illogical to select anything but berzerker.
and whats even worse? in game design, passive survival is less useful to begin with. so its actually an ever worse tradeoff.

so basically, stat customization is a lie at supplementing your build.
And thats why there is always this rage. anyone who didnt pick berserk realizes eventually, that their stat points are straight up inferior. not just from a gameplay perspective, but in raw numbers, just inferior.

I’m pretty sure the majority of players will agree giver’s is a terribad stat.

Now compare soldiers or sentinels to zerker.

Hmm lets cherry pick one of the worst stat combos and compare it to one of the best. #logic

spoj.9672:

Hmm lets cherry pick one of the worst stat combos and compare it to one of the best. #logic

actually thats exactly what you should do when figuring out how balanced something is.

power is one of the best performing stats. 121% effectiveness including base crits
condition damage is also a top performer, 120% but doesnt synergize that well with other stats, and its effectiveness isnt across the board, some proffessions just have crappy condi damage.

toughness/vitality/ferocity are about 60-70% effective
precison is about 52% effective
healing is all over the place, but looks like a high estimation 30% effective
boon duration is 26% effective.

precision seems though low, but in terms of how it effects dmg, its tricky because it also procs conditions and special effects. it also interacts multiplicatively with power and ferocity.

long story short.
all other stats are mechanically inferior to power except condition damage, and ferocity and precision are the best multiplicative effects (boon duration/healing have low effeciency)

so how bad your stat set actually is mechanically, is basically pretty easy to figure out. and berserkers is the top of the heap, mechanically

and gamedplay wise, wayyy ahead.

point of the comparison is, as far as supplementing your build, it is obviously more worthwhile to do berserk
and considering game design, most of the stats sets are even worse. (like toughness is only a small portion of your ability to defend, whereas power is most of your ability to DPS)

Windsagio.1340:

Well then, they need to fix the encounters, which ties in well to the OP.

How is tricky of course, and I’m actually with you that the wrong answer is further ‘incentivizing’ a particular stat set.

A few further examples of possible fixes:

Burst damage that forces a glass player to move out of their preferred DPS area whereas someone with hybrid stats can stay in (note that this likely still favors the glass player) (note2: The underground mordrem troll is a prototype for this)

In general, higher volume lower damage ae’s (an extension of the above – puts more pressure on aegis/dodgeroll defenses, adds value to things like regen and passive heals – makes rangers very sad as it kills both their pets and their spirits)

A change to defiance to weaken the icebow/burn cycle (we know this is already happening in HOT, but I suspect it will effect things more than people think)

The idea in general is to make it so that a glass player has to be on point with their active defenses (or their party support, as with aegis), whereas a mixed stat player can miss some and have some breathing room.

~~~

Part of it also is to tune the damage so that high Toughness or Vitality makes a meaningful difference. There’s an old (largely incorrect for most content) saying that ‘it doesn’t matter because every class is a 1 or 2 hit anyways’. If zerk were 1hit and required perfect play, and knights were 4hit and had some breathing room, you’d see a lot more knights

While still allowing the top players with perfect reflexes to play pure zerk for their speed runs and to get more advantage in props and gold/hour for their skill.

Devs already said they won’t touch the old content and instead will focus on the jungle. You don’t have to incetivize any gear set and listening to Isaiah Cartwright makes me believe they know it. Anet wants players to use a whole scope of the tools you have at your disposal. Not gear but tools like defensive utilities (condition removal at the very least), soft cc and many others.

Ice bow deep freeze will be nerfed completely but at the same side it will be much easier to stun a boss. Those generic stuns lasts about 3-4 seconds (from Stronghold and first instance) so it’s not particularly much weaker than deep freeze. What it will change though, is that you will no longer be able to remove defiance with fast recharging headshot. In the old dungeons, the stun→burn phase won’t disappear but the tools to achieve it will be different.

If knight’s had 4 times the survivability of the berserker’s, average people wouldn’t take it because it does offer only about 20-30% more damage. Those recorded runs are made after a countless mistakes and errors because people are not machines and everyone can wipe, even the so-called elite. You also seem to forget about something called a sustainability. It matters less than you think that knight’s allows you to take one more hit than berserker’s. The thing that allows full nomad’s parties tanks through virtually everything (a notable “0 dodges arah path 2” which has a lot of typical one shots) isn’t additional toughness or vitality because they serve only as a buffer. It’s reactive healing as well as maintaining defensive boons.

@Phys
How are you getting these numbers? Sounds like you have just made some up. Without context they mean nothing.

Effectiveness is measured by its intended purpose. So comparing them like that means nothing. Nomads is incredibly effective at faceroll afking content. Berserkers isnt. Berserkers is incredibly effective at maximising direct damage. Nomads isnt. Do you see my point? It depends on what you as a player set your goal as. Most people value speed which is why berserker is popular and other gearsets are excluded. This is a player goal issue, not a balance issue. Its also the fault of easy content, With harder content less people will go for the extremes because the chance of failure is higher. But that is unrelated to stat balance.

And even if you can compare with those numbers its not important. Whats important is a stat combos ability to do its job. And berserker is no better than nomads at doing its job. In fact i would say nomads is better at doing its job because theres almost no chance of failure. Obviously some stat combos are less effective because they are poorly designed and have no synergy. But the only real comparison is the two extremes nomads vs berserker and how well they do their job.

It’s obvious that there is a difference in effectiveness of gear, however increasing skill abilities with stats won’t have the effect people think it will have. It won’t open new builds and add variety to the game, it will just limit player creativity and their ability to adapt to any situation.

Although I understand there is a problem with certain gear stats that are underperforming, that doesn’t mean the proposed alternative is any good either. In fact, it will make things worse, not better.

spoj.9672:

@Phys
How are you getting these numbers? Sounds like you have just made some up. Without context they mean nothing.

Effectiveness is measured by its intended purpose. So comparing them like that means nothing. Nomads is incredibly effective at faceroll afking content. Berserkers isnt. Berserkers is incredibly effective at maximising direct damage. Nomads isnt. Do you see my point? It depends on what you as a player set your goal as. Most people value speed which is why berserker is popular and other gearsets are excluded. This is a player goal issue, not a balance issue. Its also the fault of easy content, With harder content less people will go for the extremes because the chance of failure is higher. But that is unrelated to stat balance.

And even if you can compare with those numbers its not important. Whats important is a stat combos ability to do its job. And berserker is no better than nomads at doing its job. In fact i would say nomads is better at doing its job because theres almost no chance of failure. Obviously some stat combos are less effective in some areas. But the only real comparison is the two extremes nomads vs berserker.

its possible i messed up some numbers, and did rough estimates. like stats can give you 2x more power, but weapon strength is in the damage equation. regardless, its pretty clear some stats underperform, and stat sets with those stats will underperform.

its also obvious some stats work multiplicatively, and many do not.

You still havent explained how you got those numbers though. And like i said whatever numeric comparison you give is meaningless. Actual gameplay effectiveness is what matters. It doesnt matter if toughness gives you really poor damage reduction returns compared to damage gain from power. If toughness allows you to survive encounters with much greater ease then it is effective at that job. You cant really compare this in any meaningful way.

maddoctor.2738:

It’s obvious that there is a difference in effectiveness of gear, however increasing skill abilities with stats won’t have the effect people think it will have. It won’t open new builds and add variety to the game, it will just limit player creativity and their ability to adapt to any situation.

Although I understand there is a problem with certain gear stats that are underperforming, that doesn’t mean the proposed alternative is any good either. In fact, it will make things worse, not better.

it will open new builds and add variety to the game most definately

it will not give the ability to adapt to any situation without a much larger investment in inventory and gear.

however, i personally think inventory and gear need a rework no matter how you slice it.
ascended is probably one of the biggest killers of diversity, with its insane time investment,
and tying stats customization to gear and basic inventory kills it the rest of the way.

but those are different flaws. those are flaws with accessibility of the current stat customization. where as the way stats effect things are flaws with the stat customization itself.

now if we are better off with no customization, that is fine, but having it, and having it not actually offer many real choices, is bad.

spoj.9672:

You still havent explained how you got those numbers though. And like i said whatever numeric comparison you give is meaningless. Actual gameplay effectiveness is what matters. It doesnt matter if toughness gives you really poor returns compared to power. If toughness allows you to survive encounters with greater ease then it is effective at doing that.

ok ignore the numbers, thats fine, because its even worse when you look at how you describe for pve.

a highly skilled person with 100% toughness cannot survive better than a person with 100% power.

they can make more mistakes, but a highly skilled person does not make that many mistakes. toughness, vitality give no benefit for skillfull play. thats why the more skill full you get, the less useful the stats are.

now, i know you say this is always the case, but it is not. in other games, being a top of the line defender is about skillful play.

Windsagio.1340:

NoTrigger.8396:

defending the pve meta has nothing to do with entitlement. defending the pve meta only means one thing, you are smart enough to understand the game.

nice try tho.

Defending the meta has nothing to do with understanding the game, and everything to do with defending a status quo that you’re comfortable with.

There’s nothing inherent to GW2 that says “ZERKER MUST BE SUPREME”, except the encounters are set up in such a way that that’s the case.

It’s not a moral or design value, it’s just (as I said) the status quo.

Is the concept of Active Defense not “inherent to GW2”? The second the combat was designed around active defense, positioning and parry/blocks PvE was destined to be dominated by glass cannon builds among players at the skill/experience cap. It may not be exactly how the developers envisioned it, but it is the inevitable end result of that decision.

phys.7689:

maddoctor.2738:

It’s obvious that there is a difference in effectiveness of gear, however increasing skill abilities with stats won’t have the effect people think it will have. It won’t open new builds and add variety to the game, it will just limit player creativity and their ability to adapt to any situation.

Although I understand there is a problem with certain gear stats that are underperforming, that doesn’t mean the proposed alternative is any good either. In fact, it will make things worse, not better.

it will open new builds and add variety to the game most definately

How is making skills more effective with certain stats going to accomplish that? For example, I can already make a powerful Stealth-focused build on my Thief, if Stealth was affected let’s say by Boon Duration how is that going to add a new build for me?

If Wall of Reflection lasts longer with extra Boon Duration, and the base duration is nerfed, how is that going to create NEW builds for my Guardian?

Now I can use a large variety of builds on my characters, if skills / traits on those builds are less powerful without specific stat investment, then my available builds will be reduced, as my gear stats will allow me to play only a small subset of what I used to play, destroying my build variety.

Unless of course I invest heavily on multiple sets of gear to be able to play all my favorite builds effectively, but that’s not going to happen. Where do you draw the line on how many gear sets a player should have to be effective?

Let’s not forget, this isn’t a trinity game.

phys.7689:

ok ignore the numbers, thats fine, because its even worse when you look at how you describe for pve.

a highly skilled person with 100% toughness cannot survive better than a person with 100% power.

they can make more mistakes, but a highly skilled person does not make that many mistakes. toughness, vitality give no benefit for skillfull play. thats why the more skill full you get, the less useful the stats are.

I might want to afk a fight. Like so: https://youtu.be/x1mxlA13ICk

You cannot say that this gearset + build is not incredibly effective at doing just that.

The whole point of the gear in the hands of a skilled or unskilled player is that you dont need to dodge. Using the skill arguement is irrelevant. Another way to look at it is that the gear is effective at making mistakes more forgiving.

Obviously if you want to be faster, you are skilled and intend to dodge then it makes no sense to use nomads because you would not get anything out of it. But thats going for a different goal. Nomads would obviously be ineffective at that particular goal.

phys.7689:

spoj.9672:

You still havent explained how you got those numbers though. And like i said whatever numeric comparison you give is meaningless. Actual gameplay effectiveness is what matters. It doesnt matter if toughness gives you really poor returns compared to power. If toughness allows you to survive encounters with greater ease then it is effective at doing that.

ok ignore the numbers, thats fine, because its even worse when you look at how you describe for pve.

a highly skilled person with 100% toughness cannot survive better than a person with 100% power.

they can make more mistakes, but a highly skilled person does not make that many mistakes. toughness, vitality give no benefit for skillfull play. thats why the more skill full you get, the less useful the stats are.

now, i know you say this is always the case, but it is not. in other games, being a top of the line defender is about skillful play.

Yes, so you want to make defensive stats more important and remove skillfull play from the game?

phys.7689:

they can make more mistakes, but a highly skilled person does not make that many mistakes. toughness, vitality give no benefit for skillfull play. thats why the more skill full you get, the less useful the stats are.

And we see that as a good thing. The only possible objection is you want tanky stats to be equally good for experienced players for… the sake of getting to use gear with a different name. Who cares what the name of the gear is? Just use what is most effective based on your skill level.

I like being criticized for “defending the status quo.” Sure. Whatever. The implication being that if the system was to change the good players wouldn’t be adaptable and suddenly all the bad players who have their Soldiers set would become the best players in the game. Sadly for you guys, the good players would still be better than the bad players regardless. They would still finish content faster and more cleanly. There would still be elitism and there would still be a meta and there would still be build exclusion. None of the so-called problems of the “zerker meta” have anything to do with the gear, but are the simple result of community standards and regardless of what you do there will always be community standards.

maddoctor.2738:

phys.7689:

maddoctor.2738:

It’s obvious that there is a difference in effectiveness of gear, however increasing skill abilities with stats won’t have the effect people think it will have. It won’t open new builds and add variety to the game, it will just limit player creativity and their ability to adapt to any situation.

Although I understand there is a problem with certain gear stats that are underperforming, that doesn’t mean the proposed alternative is any good either. In fact, it will make things worse, not better.

it will open new builds and add variety to the game most definately

How is making skills more effective with certain stats going to accomplish that? For example, I can already make a powerful Stealth-focused build on my Thief, if Stealth was affected let’s say by Boon Duration how is that going to add a new build for me?

If Wall of Reflection lasts longer with extra Boon Duration, and the base duration is nerfed, how is that going to create NEW builds for my Guardian?

Now I can use a large variety of builds on my characters, if skills / traits on those builds are less powerful without specific stat investment, then my available builds will be reduced, as my gear stats will allow me to play only a small subset of what I used to play, destroying my build variety.

Unless of course I invest heavily on multiple sets of gear to be able to play all my favorite builds effectively, but that’s not going to happen. Where do you draw the line on how many gear sets a player should have to be effective?

Let’s not forget, this isn’t a trinity game.

trinity has nothing to do with build diversity

it will create new playstyles because stats themselves will alter what type of profitable combinations, and playstyles you can bring to the table.

a mesmer who can dodge more, can create more clones, which means they can do all sorts of new combinations of attacks, effects, debuffs, etc.

a warrior with longer endure pain can string together eat more dmg without having to move, potentially getting more dps with less risk, or reviving someone, or holding enemy attention

and like i said, they need to change the way you store and obtain gear no matter how you slice it, IF they want gear to equal customization/horizontal progression.

maddoctor.2738:

phys.7689:

spoj.9672:

You still havent explained how you got those numbers though. And like i said whatever numeric comparison you give is meaningless. Actual gameplay effectiveness is what matters. It doesnt matter if toughness gives you really poor returns compared to power. If toughness allows you to survive encounters with greater ease then it is effective at doing that.

ok ignore the numbers, thats fine, because its even worse when you look at how you describe for pve.

a highly skilled person with 100% toughness cannot survive better than a person with 100% power.

they can make more mistakes, but a highly skilled person does not make that many mistakes. toughness, vitality give no benefit for skillfull play. thats why the more skill full you get, the less useful the stats are.

now, i know you say this is always the case, but it is not. in other games, being a top of the line defender is about skillful play.

Yes, so you want to make defensive stats more important and remove skillfull play from the game?

having stats effect skills, doesnt make the game less skillfull.
was playing an domination mesmer in gw1 less skillfull than playing a strength warrior?

defensive stats EFFECTING SKILLS wont remove skillful play at all.

spoj.9672:

phys.7689:

ok ignore the numbers, thats fine, because its even worse when you look at how you describe for pve.

a highly skilled person with 100% toughness cannot survive better than a person with 100% power.

they can make more mistakes, but a highly skilled person does not make that many mistakes. toughness, vitality give no benefit for skillfull play. thats why the more skill full you get, the less useful the stats are.

I might want to afk a fight. Like so: https://youtu.be/x1mxlA13ICk

You cannot say that this gearset + build is not incredibly effective at doing just that.

The whole point of the gear in the hands of a skilled or unskilled player is that you dont need to dodge. Using the skill arguement is irrelevant. Another way to look at it is that the gear is effective at making mistakes more forgiving.

Obviously if you want to be faster, you are skilled and intend to dodge then it makes no sense to use nomads because you would not get anything out of it. But thats going for a different goal. Nomads would obviously be ineffective at that particular goal.

afking is not skillfull play.

making mistakes more forgiving is not a playstyle, it is how good you are at a playstyle.

Like i said many times, if the goal of stat distributions is to adjust difficulty, that would be much more effeciently achieved with a totally different system.

also, berserker is not the hardest set to play. a midrange stat set is probably harder to play, because killing fast does in fact eliminate mechanics, risk, and decrease oppurtunity to make mistakes.

for setting difficulty the stat sets are all over the place, and different for different professions, it also generates difficulties balancing content and normalizing difficulty.

Jerus.4350:

Can be seen on both sides of most arguments unfortunately.

Said it before and I’ll say it again, I enjoy the current GW2 system because it puts your tools on easily changeable tools, with gear in PVE mainly being a difficulty slider, both allowing less skills/active/whatever players to get by by beefing up a bit, and players can glass up and doing so is rewarded with faster kill times. These two people can group together and they both have their individual difficulty, I think it’s a pretty great setup.

On top of that by keeping most of the game based around actively defending yourself it keeps a player engaged. I played MMOs way back, and the reason I quit my first MMO completely after YEARS of always coming back was because it got boring, playing was too much based around using the correct setup and not enough to actively do. So I’d be doing raids half afk, and the one reaction I’d have to make every couple mins I’d only ever miss because I was so bored I stopped paying attention. So I like this setup. Some attrition based mechanics could perhaps encourage more tanky setups, but the flip side to attrition based mechanics is that you can also simply stack the dps and burn through it. So I’m not an overly big fan of those.

Again I’ll say if tank gear is something they want to make popular, they could put out “hard modes” that are unforgiving in that once you’re downed you’re dead and there’s no coming back. Perfect runs are required. Doing that and you’d have a lot of people loading up their safety nets again, only the especially brave would continue to glass up and believe they can handle it without a mistake.

The emphasis part, I’m of the opinion that if you’ll need/desire a concrete hardmode type of game mode, it runs into various logical hiccups…

• Who is this suppose to be hard for? The casual? The hardcore? Those with slow reflexes? The speedrunners? Each are going to have different types of difficulty roadblocks to overcome and plan around. Make it hard for the hardcore and you put it out of the scope of the low-ping/slow-reflexes players; put roadblocks in to catch the speedrunners when they make mistakes and you make a mess for casuals; don’t put enough emphasis on difficulty and it becomes trivial to the hardcore/speedrunner within a week; ect.

• Defense gear is a difficulty slider? Only a hypothetical question, I understand the situation for defensive gear currently, but I say it’s crappy at it. If it were a decent difficulty slider, it’d make content harder for everyone or easier for everyone. It currently does both. Often, with offensive gear, you can beat down foes far quicker and eliminate threats before they become large threats and for some, that makes encounters easier since the number of opportunities to make mistakes are fewer. Putting some of those players in defensive gear makes the game harder because yeah, they can make more mistakes but the enemy is alive long enough that the number of mistakes they are afforded does not match up to how many opportunities the enemy makes for such mistakes to occur. Now a player who is an ace is going to make so few mistakes, their offensive approach practically nullifies the enemy almost as well as their damage simply eliminates said enemy. Put that player in defensive gear and the game is practically face-roll and they don’t need dodge so the game went from easy to faceroll.

• If anything, I’d call defensive gear a time-exchanger, not a difficulty slider. You exchange time for time. Do you die more often? You can exchange that time spent on dying to time spent fighting. Enemies taking too long to die? Exchange time spent fighting for possibly time spent running back to where you died while fighting. In that instance, I dislike how this all works out because I’m a player that enjoys experimenting with playstyles, gear, weapons and traits beyond just what is optimal for a situation. When it comes to gear, all it ever does is just add or subtract time from a fight which is a boring dynamic.

• Got caught up in some points but, if I haven’t touched on it: if a hardmode setting should be made, an easymode should be just as likely and using gear for adjusting difficulty is unnecessary.

phys.7689:

maddoctor.2738:

phys.7689:

maddoctor.2738:

It’s obvious that there is a difference in effectiveness of gear, however increasing skill abilities with stats won’t have the effect people think it will have. It won’t open new builds and add variety to the game, it will just limit player creativity and their ability to adapt to any situation.

Although I understand there is a problem with certain gear stats that are underperforming, that doesn’t mean the proposed alternative is any good either. In fact, it will make things worse, not better.

it will open new builds and add variety to the game most definately

How is making skills more effective with certain stats going to accomplish that? For example, I can already make a powerful Stealth-focused build on my Thief, if Stealth was affected let’s say by Boon Duration how is that going to add a new build for me?

If Wall of Reflection lasts longer with extra Boon Duration, and the base duration is nerfed, how is that going to create NEW builds for my Guardian?

Now I can use a large variety of builds on my characters, if skills / traits on those builds are less powerful without specific stat investment, then my available builds will be reduced, as my gear stats will allow me to play only a small subset of what I used to play, destroying my build variety.

Unless of course I invest heavily on multiple sets of gear to be able to play all my favorite builds effectively, but that’s not going to happen. Where do you draw the line on how many gear sets a player should have to be effective?

Let’s not forget, this isn’t a trinity game.

trinity has nothing to do with build diversity

it will create new playstyles because stats themselves will alter what type of profitable combinations, and playstyles you can bring to the table.

Sorry I don’t see any new playstyles appearing if you tie stats to skills, only limit players. There are loads of playstyles already out there and gear doesn’t affect them, only player skill does. You can switch between playstyles at will without getting punished by not having specific gear stats.

Hey let’s say projectile reflects are better with more Vitality, Stealth is better with more Boon Duration and Stuns last longer with more Toughness. And if you also nerf the current skills so you actually NEED some stat investment to make them work like they do now, it will be even worse.

Players will be using the exact same traits, utility skills and weapon skills, only be required to use specific gear stats too… Is that really worth it?

New meta: Looking for Sentinel Guardian, Giver Thief, Knight Elementalist. Reminds me of some other games that GW2 tried to avoid becoming like.

and like i said, they need to change the way you store and obtain gear no matter how you slice it, IF they want gear to equal customization/horizontal progression.

Then I hope they don’t want gear to equal customization or horizontal progression.

phys.7689:

defensive stats EFFECTING SKILLS wont remove skillful play at all.

Look at it the other way: How does having defensive stats making Wall of Reflect last 2 seconds longer promote skilled play? How about 20% Stability duration?

Having Stability last longer doesn’t promote skillful play. Skillful play is using Stability in response to a boss tell that will do a group CC. In that context, it doesn’t matter if Stability lasts 4 seconds or 8 seconds. All that matters is you use it when you need it, or rather when you don’t use it when you don’t need it. Adding duration to Stability in PvE, for example, is simply another set of training wheels, security blanket, crutches for inexperienced players who don’t know what to do. Combining the security blanket of tanky stats with the security blanket of defensive boon duration isn’t promoting skillful play, its just making the game even easier for new players to make a deadly mistake in.

NikeEU.7690:

phys.7689:

they can make more mistakes, but a highly skilled person does not make that many mistakes. toughness, vitality give no benefit for skillfull play. thats why the more skill full you get, the less useful the stats are.

And we see that as a good thing. The only possible objection is you want tanky stats to be equally good for experienced players for… the sake of getting to use gear with a different name. Who cares what the name of the gear is? Just use what is most effective based on your skill level.

I like being criticized for “defending the status quo.” Sure. Whatever. The implication being that if the system was to change the good players wouldn’t be adaptable and suddenly all the bad players who have their Soldiers set would become the best players in the game. Sadly for you guys, the good players would still be better than the bad players regardless. They would still finish content faster and more cleanly. There would still be elitism and there would still be a meta and there would still be build exclusion. None of the so-called problems of the “zerker meta” have anything to do with the gear, but are the simple result of community standards and regardless of what you do there will always be community standards.

you like to assume a lot, you like to be adversarial.

There is no implication, good players will be good players, that wont change, why would i want it to change? Changing stats wont change that.

This isnt about elitism, that has nothing to do with build variety, many other games have elitism, and they dont have berserker style play.

This is very simple:
the point of stat customization existing at all, should be to customize your game play and build, to work to create various playstyles. Thats the only reason you should put it in a game.

If the game is better off without stat customization, which is a position that may have merit, then TAKE OUT STAT CUSTOMIZATION.

the best argument for our current implementation of stat customization is that you can use it to set handicap.
you know whats better at setting handicaps?
a little meter you move over that sets your handicap.

NikeEU.7690:

phys.7689:

defensive stats EFFECTING SKILLS wont remove skillful play at all.

Look at it the other way: How does having defensive stats making Wall of Reflect last 2 seconds longer promote skilled play? How about 20% Stability duration?

Having Stability last longer doesn’t promote skillful play. Skillful play is using Stability in response to a boss tell that will do a group CC. In that context, it doesn’t matter if Stability lasts 4 seconds or 8 seconds. All that matters is you use it when you need it, or rather when you don’t use it when you don’t need it. Adding duration to Stability in PvE, for example, is simply another set of training wheels, security blanket, crutches for inexperienced players who don’t know what to do. Combining the security blanket of tanky stats with the security blanket of defensive boon duration isn’t promoting skillful play, its just making the game even easier for new players to make a deadly mistake in.

longer stability for skillfull play would be popping coordinating high% stability players stability to be able to use a team burst (might fury quickness)when normally a monster might require you to back off, or fall down, and a memer with boon duration bonus, using signet of inspiration to double the uptime of the stability stacks so you can still fight in a rockslide.

other people could just run to safe areas for substantially less effort.

wall of reflect lasting two seconds longer?, if timed excellently, right as he attacks, you may be able to get an extra hit of damage. or get extra vulnerability uptime by soaking an extra hits with light auras from the field.

there is usually some ways in which something that effects skills can be used skillfully for greater effect.

phys.7689:

This is very simple:
the point of stat customization existing at all, should be to customize your game play and build, to work to create various playstyles. Thats the only reason you should put it in a game.

First, when you say “should” that is an opinion. It’s not some absolute truth we all agree upon, or would agree upon if we were all as enlightened as you are.

Second, I find it more satisfying to create playstyles with traits, runes and skills. Which is far superior to crude brute force gear stats creating playstyles.

Third, the so-called playstyles people want to create are tanks, healers and do-nothing support. You’re being coy and disingenuous if you pretend otherwise.

Fourth, if Anet wants healers to be a viable playstyle they don’t need to radically change the gear to do that, they can just add new traits that encourage it or change the healing coefficient of particular skills. This is an Ockham’s Razor situation: why revamp the gear system to accomplish what can be done by moving a decimal point on a trait description?

phys.7689:

NikeEU.7690:

phys.7689:

defensive stats EFFECTING SKILLS wont remove skillful play at all.

Look at it the other way: How does having defensive stats making Wall of Reflect last 2 seconds longer promote skilled play? How about 20% Stability duration?

Having Stability last longer doesn’t promote skillful play. Skillful play is using Stability in response to a boss tell that will do a group CC. In that context, it doesn’t matter if Stability lasts 4 seconds or 8 seconds. All that matters is you use it when you need it, or rather when you don’t use it when you don’t need it. Adding duration to Stability in PvE, for example, is simply another set of training wheels, security blanket, crutches for inexperienced players who don’t know what to do. Combining the security blanket of tanky stats with the security blanket of defensive boon duration isn’t promoting skillful play, its just making the game even easier for new players to make a deadly mistake in.

longer stability for skillfull play would be popping coordinating high% stability players stability to be able to use a team burst (might fury quickness)when normally a monster might require you to back off, or fall down, and a memer with boon duration bonus, using signet of inspiration to double the uptime of the stability stacks so you can still fight in a rockslide.

other people could just run to safe areas for substantially less effort.

wall of reflect lasting two seconds longer?, if timed excellently, right as he attacks, you may be able to get an extra hit of damage. or get extra vulnerability uptime by soaking an extra hits with light auras from the field.

there is usually some ways in which something that effects skills can be used skillfully for greater effect.

All of that is about precise timing of the skills we already have access to and has nothing to do with duration mattering or tanky gear mattering; which is exactly the point I made in my quoted text that you did nothing to counter. It’s time you just admit that it doesn’t promote skilled play and I pretty much turned your point.

how is making it easier to chain boons or reflects skillful play?

using something like a mesmer’s mantra of concentration right now is skillful because the stability has such low duration that you need to time it fast enough to mitigate the CC but not too soon that you miss it.

and your wall of reflect example is literally just longer duration letting you deal damage longer, and “soaking extra hits” just gives off a massive “I want to be a tank” vibe.

what this game needs is more, new content, not offering rewards for unskilled play. what this game does not need is forced diversity.

can we go back to people complaining about “playing how they want”? I found that a lot less annoying to read than people whining about “diversity” as if it’s some sort of holy grail. in fact, let me give you an example right now – in League of Legends this season it’s probably at its most diverse point so far, in regards to playable champions. you have ****-tier champions who have rose up and become staples of professional play and actually being banned out by teams. you have your regular champions with high mobility, high damage and overloaded skill sets being played. you have tanks being played, bruisers, assassins, absolutely everything right now is playable.

and yet you still have people there incessantly whining about diversity, because the champions they like now still work but aren’t as favoured (the meta there right now favours, surprise surprise, playing super tanks).

if ANet force build diversity, there will be whining. if the status quo is maintained, there will be whining. either way they lose, except with forced diversity people are now being forced in to playing certain builds or gear sets whereas right now you can literally do what you want. sure, you won’t optimal, but whatever, you can still do what you want and clear content just fine.

maddoctor.2738:

phys.7689:

maddoctor.2738:

phys.7689:

maddoctor.2738:

It’s obvious that there is a difference in effectiveness of gear, however increasing skill abilities with stats won’t have the effect people think it will have. It won’t open new builds and add variety to the game, it will just limit player creativity and their ability to adapt to any situation.

Although I understand there is a problem with certain gear stats that are underperforming, that doesn’t mean the proposed alternative is any good either. In fact, it will make things worse, not better.

it will open new builds and add variety to the game most definately

How is making skills more effective with certain stats going to accomplish that? For example, I can already make a powerful Stealth-focused build on my Thief, if Stealth was affected let’s say by Boon Duration how is that going to add a new build for me?

If Wall of Reflection lasts longer with extra Boon Duration, and the base duration is nerfed, how is that going to create NEW builds for my Guardian?

Now I can use a large variety of builds on my characters, if skills / traits on those builds are less powerful without specific stat investment, then my available builds will be reduced, as my gear stats will allow me to play only a small subset of what I used to play, destroying my build variety.

Unless of course I invest heavily on multiple sets of gear to be able to play all my favorite builds effectively, but that’s not going to happen. Where do you draw the line on how many gear sets a player should have to be effective?

Let’s not forget, this isn’t a trinity game.

trinity has nothing to do with build diversity

it will create new playstyles because stats themselves will alter what type of profitable combinations, and playstyles you can bring to the table.

Sorry I don’t see any new playstyles appearing if you tie stats to skills, only limit players. There are loads of playstyles already out there and gear doesn’t affect them, only player skill does. You can switch between playstyles at will without getting punished by not having specific gear stats.

Hey let’s say projectile reflects are better with more Vitality, Stealth is better with more Boon Duration and Stuns last longer with more Toughness. And if you also nerf the current skills so you actually NEED some stat investment to make them work like they do now, it will be even worse.

Players will be using the exact same traits, utility skills and weapon skills, only be required to use specific gear stats too… Is that really worth it?

New meta: Looking for Sentinel Guardian, Giver Thief, Knight Elementalist. Reminds me of some other games that GW2 tried to avoid becoming like.

and like i said, they need to change the way you store and obtain gear no matter how you slice it, IF they want gear to equal customization/horizontal progression.

Then I hope they don’t want gear to equal customization or horizontal progression.

you are afraid that if stats matter you will have to invest more in stats.
thats a valid concern

but its crazy for you to say effecting stats doesnt change gameplay.
the difference between being able to stun people longer is a difference in whether control skills are worth using or not.

control skills being useful can change your entire skill bar, and set up new useful combos, as well as group synergies.
you know this. You know, that it will create more overall builds/interactions/playstyles.

it will however make you less effecient at mastering all the possible builds without a larger gear investment.
thats a fine complaint, but it doesnt really have anything to do with having more overall build diversity and playstyles.

and to your last comment,
you realize i said REGARDLESS of if they change anything they should make gear be more obtainable, and less taxing on inventory.

i dont know why you as a player would not want that to happen, its a win win no matter how you look at it.

now, maybe you want no stats at all, i could see how that could have its own benefits. but as it is right now?
most stat sets are traps
people complaining their stat sets are useless
poor balance between different stat set players
trivilized content on both ends of the spectrum

and the worst one?
most likely they will make the game more simulation like when they try to make things more challenging
IE more required damage
and more required builds

maha.7902:

how is making it easier to chain boons or reflects skillful play?

using something like a mesmer’s mantra of concentration right now is skillful because the stability has such low duration that you need to time it fast enough to mitigate the CC but not too soon that you miss it.

and your wall of reflect example is literally just longer duration letting you deal damage longer, and “soaking extra hits” just gives off a massive “I want to be a tank” vibe.

what this game needs is more, new content, not offering rewards for unskilled play. what this game does not need is forced diversity.

can we go back to people complaining about “playing how they want”? I found that a lot less annoying to read than people whining about “diversity” as if it’s some sort of holy grail. in fact, let me give you an example right now – in League of Legends this season it’s probably at its most diverse point so far, in regards to playable champions. you have ****-tier champions who have rose up and become staples of professional play and actually being banned out by teams. you have your regular champions with high mobility, high damage and overloaded skill sets being played. you have tanks being played, bruisers, assassins, absolutely everything right now is playable.

and yet you still have people there incessantly whining about diversity, because the champions they like now still work but aren’t as favoured (the meta there right now favours, surprise surprise, playing super tanks).

if ANet force build diversity, there will be whining. if the status quo is maintained, there will be whining. either way they lose, except with forced diversity people are now being forced in to playing certain builds or gear sets whereas right now you can literally do what you want. sure, you won’t optimal, but whatever, you can still do what you want and clear content just fine.

you appear to be in the no need for stat customization camp then.
So why do we have stats at all? why not just remove them?

I am not saying the game must have stat diversity, i am saying they already put stat diversity in the game, its just a really crappy execution.
so either, make stat diversity actually matter
or
remove stat diversity.

personally, i like stat diversity when its well executed, it gives me many ways to play the game, and different things to try.
but, there is something to be said for very well balanced difficulties, and lower investment to achieve best case scenarios, like you might see in a fighting game/action game.

what sucks is that what we have now is the worst of both worlds.