Guild Wars 2

I understand the need to change te reward structure for dungeons. I have felt for a long time that the amount of pure liquid gold pumped into the economy per dungeon path was too high. I was happy to see how silverwastes was structured in that it gave materials, including bags which could have their materials tuned based on the player’s needs by specifically opening on x level character, which could be used by the player or sold for gold. While I dont think the chest farm is quite a healthy thing, overall silverwastes was a step in the right direction.

Please note, the following is written even though I know that the developers seem to want to pretend dungeons are obsolete and dont plan on doing anything with them aside from, apparently, nerfing their rewards so that those gold generation sources may be moved elsewhere.

Dungeons dont need an outright nerf; dungeons need a rebalance in their reward structure away from gold and toward other things. For instance, nerf the ending gold as of now you get 1.31 gold per normal dungeon path (with some exceptions of course), lets move that to, say, 50 silver total. Now, rework the structure in a couple ways.

1) increase the drop rate of cores and lodestones where it makes sense. Golems/inquest across all dungeons should have a chance (and higher than current)at charged cores and lodestones. Destroyers in all dungeons, destroyer cores and lodestones. All flame legion and effigies should have (or have a higher chance) of dropping molten cores/lodestones. Undead should have a chance (or higher chance) of giant eyes. As a few examples.

2) Further, We have dungeon armor and weapon skins, add in some unique skins that drop in the dungeon itself. In CoE add in some drops for a shoulder or backpack skin based on the things that are coming out of Subject Alpha that drops from subject alpha. Add a subject alpha mask as a head piece. Add a mini essence of alpha ooze drop. In Ascalon Catacombs, give a unique drop to the cave troll, add a mini ghost eater to the ghost eater’s loot table and maybe a mini ectoplasmic ooze as well for example

3) We have recipes for amulets that drop from the last boss, how about recipes for actual unique skins from the last boss that use the different offerings.

4) Furthermore, you could add a chance (50% or so) for a Bag of Wondrous Goods, to drop a new crafting item (call them artifacts for now) specific to each dungeon. This item could be used in the above weapon recipes and, perhaps, also be used in a forge recipe like this to turn a regular exotic item into an ascended item with the same skin:

1 Dungeon weapon
75 artifacts
1 ascended crafted item (made of 1 deldrimore steel, 1 spirit wood plank in the case of a weapon and 1 offering from the specific dungeon)
1 anthology of heroes

dungeons should be rewarding and content should not be disincentivized, but I do agree that the current reward structure with the heavy emphasis on gold generation should be altered.

If a normal dungeon run can get you 1 gold, 60 tokens, and misc material. What would be the decrease in rewards? If they lower gold by even 50%, then you are looking at 50 silver. It takes you about 3 runs to get enough for an exotic piece of armor. So your net loss is 1.5 gold. If soldier/dire equipment increase by a gold, then your net loss is only 17 silver per run. If ecto’s increase by about 10 silver due to the increased need for ascended material, then you could even off set some of that loss by the ectos you get from salvaging. So would we really be crying over 14 silver per run?

If people stop doing dungeons then a major supplier will be removed from the market. The only issue that would off set this is if they make WvW armor salvageable, even if it was, dungeon runs would continue to be more efficient.

They also can’t “ding” token loss as part of the equation because that would only further increase the price of soldier/dire insignias due to supply/demand.

My advice is to make as many dungeon runs as possible and then hold those insignias for when the market price increases.

Yargesh.4965:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

So…. basically what this thread is telling me is that if I want to finish my Dungeon Master title, I need to do so over the next few days (on both accounts) because after HoT, dungeons are pretty much going to be dead. Lovely.

I doubt this very very much. Drama does love drama but get serious, people will still be doing dungeons.

Oh I’m sure there will always be people that do them. But it will just be that much harder to get a group. Obviously time itself is it’s own killer of content, but diminished rewards on top of that, with the intent of deincentivizing the content? Not good.

I can understand not wanting dungeons to pump out as much liquid gold per path, but they are intentionally not offsetting that loss. They don’t want people playing this content. They want to funnel them into other content, with the lure of more lucrative rewards. They may as well just delete the kitten things at that rate, which isn’t right.

displacedTitan.6897:

Spurnshadow.3678:

sicsempertyrannis.3510:

In this new age of MMOs, when the cash shop has replaced monthly subscriptions, you should assume that matters of the in-game economy, gold sales, etc. should take priority over player content.

Incentivizing HoT-exclusive content and encouraging gem purchases to acquire gold (as a means of circumventing increased grind requirements) are necessary measures to keep this product profitable.

This. Amazing how so many of you don’t get it.

Its amazing how some of you don’t understand the basic economics of reducing liquid gold from a single part of the game world. He made it very clear that overall player income isn’t going down but they needed to make slack so that new content can be rewarding without massive inflation….

Also, if you think for a second about the lack of sub you realize that it leads to people taking a break and coming back to the game so you have to KEEP INFLATION LOW so that when these players return THEIR GOLD STILL HAS VALUE.

Exactly this. Think about it for a second. Dungeons generate an insane amount of gold. Some people run multiple paths daily for income. You can find posts of people saying they make 80g a day. Quick search uncovered this: “i usually do: AC 1&3, CM 1&3, TA up&fw, SE 1&3 and it takes ~1 Hour and 30 Minutes” Thats about 12g just in pure liquid rewards. Do that every day and thats 81.2g per week or 324g per month.

That creates a lot of problems.

1 raids. Naturally raids being the hardest content in the game need to have the best rewards. If 1hr 30 mins of dungeoneering gives you 12g+ how much should a 2 hr raid give? 15g? well then what happens when you have 3 active wings… does that mean players who are good enough to finish them get 45g a week on top of the 81g a week they get dungeoneering? which means a massive 125g a month? what happens when we get 6 wings? (171g) or 12 wings down the line (261g a month) do we keep going up?

Thing is people mistakenly think that earning less means they have to work more to get the same rewards but it doesnt work that way. (well not in the long term) Its basic supply and demand. If I am selling item X that took 1 hr to harvest I am going to sell it for as much as anyone is willing to pay. for the 261g a month player that means probably around 5g-6g because thats how much they make in an hour. If that same player makes a more modest 50g a month they’ll be willing to pay 1g instead. Either way if you’re a hardcore player who earns as much as it is humanly possible per hour you’ll always have to put in the same amount of time.

More then that however is the average player / the new player. Those who dont farm every single second of their game time. They dont do a comprehensive dungeon run per day and will not win every raid every week. These guys will never make that monstrous 260g per month, they’ll hardly make the 50g a month yet still need to pay the same prices as anyone else. If we let inflation in the game will become less and less enjoyable as it will be increasingly difficult for them to afford anything.

In my opinion syncronizing rewards between different activities is always a good thing even if something that means nerfing.

(1) Speaking of broken, underused materials, what about mystic forge stones? Their main use was tossing into the mystic forge with three random exotics to get a Precusor, but a lot of people didn’t even use them for that (and that just got devalued).

They are an achievement and gemstore reward, is there any chance that they can get a more intuitive sink?

(2) Superior siege weapons depend on spirit shards (nerfed) and t5 ore and wood (nerfed). Is the Wvw community which pays for this siege just going to eat both nerfs? Is this a market you’re looking at? (The WvW community would love the ability to buy superior siege, even overpriced siege, at a vendor for gold, badges, or karma)

(3). I suspect Linen is another broken market. Ascended bolts require 40 linen and linen is not farmable on a level 80 character. I suspect that karma forger/salvagers and low level champ bag openers contribute a major portion of total supply. This looks like its getting fixed with nerfs. But is there going to be another way a level 80 character can obtain linen (and leather) in the future?

(3)

(1) Speaking of broken, underused materials, what about mystic forge stones? Their main use was tossing into the mystic forge with three random exotics to get a Precusor, but a lot of people didn’t even use them for that (and that just got devalued).

They are an achievement and gemstore reward, is there any chance that they can get a more intitive sink?

(2) Superior siege weapons depend on spirit shards (nerfed) and t5 ore and wood (nerfed). Is the Wvw community which pays for this siege just going to eat both nerfs? Is this a market you’re looking at? (The WvW community would love the ability to buy superior siege, even overpriced siege, at a vendor for gold, badges, or karma)

(3). I suspect Linen is another broken market. Ascended bolts require 40 linen and linen is not farmable on a level 80 character. I suspect that karma forger/salvagers and low level champ bag openers contribute a major portion of total supply. This looks like its getting fixed with nerfs. But is there going to be another way a level 80 character can obtain linen (and leather) in the future?

(4). Am I limited to just two of the new Legendaries due to account bound rewards, or can I collect them all?

I think everyone in this thread should take the time to read the past blog posts and announcements about the expansion. A lot of people are complaining about things that aren’t even applicable in HoT.

Just a few points to clear some stuff up that i’ve seen multiple times in this thread:

1. WvW gear is now salvageable in HoT.
2. Agony resist now comes in potions that you can buy with fractal relics
3. Fractals are becoming 1 at a time, not 4 at a time.
4. Dungeon tokens are very valuable (60 tokens is ~1g), and will increase in value if less people do them
5. Item inflation drives prices down, money inflation drives prices up
6. People do dungeons BECAUSE of the gold, not out of some love for running dungeons 500+ times

Question for John:

Do you see previous tyria mats making up the majority of the economy still, or will we see a shift to HoT mats being used more and other things completely forgotten?

Senario.2038:

John Smith.4610:

Swagger.1459:

Howdy John! Any plans to reduce the amount of bolts of silk required for crafting spools of silk weaving thread?

Nope

So what you are saying is that you are completely fine with the exceedingly high price of Silk and are also nerfing its salvaging so that even if players wanted to they could not generate the silk themselves without resorting to the trade post.

I highly doubt the “innovative” map rewards will reward enough silk to be worth it to craft one spool of silk weaving thread a day. Silk bolts are 100 every day compared to 50 for Thick leather section, mithrillium, and elder spirit wood. Even if you lowered them to 50 they would still maintain their value because they are used for insignias for all armor types and in general are more used than any of the other two comparable ascended materials.

I’ve seen this problem in a game before, gating content behind grinding and having to trade with other players to participate in gameplay. It doesn’t work, in the end you will alienate all of the players who are average at the game while leaving only the elite who really won’t care about what you change because they are already sitting on enough capital to get or make nearly anything they want.

I want to continue playing this game but I don’t want it to turn into Grind Wars 2 since people are not machines who can play the game 24/7 they have jobs and families in lots of cases and working to play is terrible. Games should not be “work” they should be fun.

Let see … it seems to take around 3 events per item from that system and you need 300 silk so that is 900 events. It would take at least 1 minute per event if you include the time to get there and finding the event. 900/60 is 15 hours a day of guild wars.

Question :
Since the item rewards are preferred to liquid in order to not generate too much money in the game, could the dungeon runes not be account bound any more?
That way, dungeon runners will sell them to other players. It gives value to dungeon tokens (by salvage or direct buying) which makes the direct money drop lower from the player perspective.
With an aristocracy rune being on high demand lately (being the condi equivalent of rune of force) and maybe the monk one with raids (who knows about the others in the future), it could be a source of revenue for those who want or need (legendary still requires dungeon token) to run dungeon.

Behellagh.1468:

Averath.6283:

Frank.7452:

I’m a little disturbed by the level of antagonism here over the gold reward going down for dungeons. I think the concern is less over the content changes, and more over your 40g a day cash flow.

Running a series of the easiest and fastest dungeon paths, skipping as much content as possible, is generally not done to be ‘fun’. It is done strictly for gold, and it’s easy money.

The gold rewards are going down to disincentivize running easy paths for gold. People will continue to play dungeons for tokens, and if the drops are improved – people might even kill things in dungeons instead of skipping to the boss.

You’re forgetting one major aspect of GW2. You only participate in content because it gets you closer to your goal. Right now gold is the end-all-beat-all. Gold is what drives the game, and if you cannot get a reasonable amount of gold from a dungeon run, then there is no reason to run a dungeon. Simply nerfing dungeons across the board doesn’t really do much to rectify this massive problem, it just removes dungeons from the equation entirely.

What they should have done is have each dungeon give you a moderate reward based upon the time investment. Figure out an average “gold per hour” for each dungeon and push for that. Have them be lower than something like the Silver Wastes, but not so low that you should simply run the Silver Wastes instead.

This isn’t addressing the core problem with dungeon speed running. It’s ignoring it entirely, and just slapping all dungeons at the same time for the hell of it, while claiming that it’s going to address the problem.

You don’t get it. The devs don’t want to develop dungeons any more. They decided that fractals give them a greater opportunity to innovate, try out new mechanics and not be tied into the PvE maps.

Because that’s where the devs are investing development time, it would be counter productive if players don’t play them so they are discouraging the existing PvE instance content by limiting the gold rewarded, yet again.

You want rewards, don’t do dungeons, do fractals. If they lose players who are doing dungeons solely for gold, oh well but they hope you will try the new fractals that is coming with HoT, you may like it. But since existing legendary weapons still require dungeon tokens, they will still be needed, but needed for dungeon specific rewards and not as a gold faucet.

Nothing said here, suggesting alternatives or warning how this is a bad decision isn’t going to change anything. The word came down a long time ago that all future instance party content will be fractals and raids and that’s it (besides future living world seasons). It was on the HoT site the day they announced the expansion.

I also wouldn’t be surprised if some of this is also part of the “let’s kill the Zerk meta”.

But, the point is they are making dungeons obsolete. I will more than likely keep doing them because I find them fun. But you get no ascended gear, only tokens to buy exotic armor pieces, that’s about it if they remove the gold. If they do remove it at least replace it with something else.

What I wanna know is why all the income is concentrated into grinds right now. If you spend hours exploring the world, completing maps, doing jumping puzzles, or even doing WvW or sPvP, you’re lucky to make as much gold in a whole day of playing as you get from just an hour of grinding Silverwastes or Dungeons. The most fun, varied, versatile content is the least lucrative, while the most tedious, repetitive, grindy content makes the most money.

I dunno if HoT’s gonna change that but I really hope so.

Khisanth.2948:

Senario.2038:

John Smith.4610:

Swagger.1459:

Howdy John! Any plans to reduce the amount of bolts of silk required for crafting spools of silk weaving thread?

Nope

So what you are saying is that you are completely fine with the exceedingly high price of Silk and are also nerfing its salvaging so that even if players wanted to they could not generate the silk themselves without resorting to the trade post.

I highly doubt the “innovative” map rewards will reward enough silk to be worth it to craft one spool of silk weaving thread a day. Silk bolts are 100 every day compared to 50 for Thick leather section, mithrillium, and elder spirit wood. Even if you lowered them to 50 they would still maintain their value because they are used for insignias for all armor types and in general are more used than any of the other two comparable ascended materials.

I’ve seen this problem in a game before, gating content behind grinding and having to trade with other players to participate in gameplay. It doesn’t work, in the end you will alienate all of the players who are average at the game while leaving only the elite who really won’t care about what you change because they are already sitting on enough capital to get or make nearly anything they want.

I want to continue playing this game but I don’t want it to turn into Grind Wars 2 since people are not machines who can play the game 24/7 they have jobs and families in lots of cases and working to play is terrible. Games should not be “work” they should be fun.

Let see … it seems to take around 3 events per item from that system and you need 300 silk so that is 900 events. It would take at least 1 minute per event if you include the time to get there and finding the event. 900/60 is 15 hours a day of guild wars.

Basically, I hope you don’t have any real life responsibilities because you are not going to get that much time to play Grind wars 2.

Khisanth.2948:

Senario.2038:

John Smith.4610:

Swagger.1459:

Howdy John! Any plans to reduce the amount of bolts of silk required for crafting spools of silk weaving thread?

Nope

So what you are saying is that you are completely fine with the exceedingly high price of Silk and are also nerfing its salvaging so that even if players wanted to they could not generate the silk themselves without resorting to the trade post.

I highly doubt the “innovative” map rewards will reward enough silk to be worth it to craft one spool of silk weaving thread a day. Silk bolts are 100 every day compared to 50 for Thick leather section, mithrillium, and elder spirit wood. Even if you lowered them to 50 they would still maintain their value because they are used for insignias for all armor types and in general are more used than any of the other two comparable ascended materials.

I’ve seen this problem in a game before, gating content behind grinding and having to trade with other players to participate in gameplay. It doesn’t work, in the end you will alienate all of the players who are average at the game while leaving only the elite who really won’t care about what you change because they are already sitting on enough capital to get or make nearly anything they want.

I want to continue playing this game but I don’t want it to turn into Grind Wars 2 since people are not machines who can play the game 24/7 they have jobs and families in lots of cases and working to play is terrible. Games should not be “work” they should be fun.

Let see … it seems to take around 3 events per item from that system and you need 300 silk so that is 900 events. It would take at least 1 minute per event if you include the time to get there and finding the event. 900/60 is 15 hours a day of guild wars.

Weird that I play <3 hours a day and I have 5 full sets of ascended armor (2 of them light). It’s almost like there are lots of different ways to get silk, and you can sell other stuff you aren’t using the buy silk…

This is just frustratingly sad….

Why don’t you just delete dungeons? honestly, you clearly just stated you don’t want players doing them…

This “economy” team just now realized dungs were printing too much gold? really? aren’t economists obsessed with stats? how the heck do you just figure out after YEARS that its now gotten out of hand???

Where were the counter measures to combat it? gold sinks? re-balancing of the reward????

Nope, none of that, thats too much work huh? just nerf it to death, clean and easy right?

“Instead of trying to rebalance/fix the issue, we just decided to kill the fun for everyone”

Great work guys!….

You honestly couldn’t give dungs other BALANCED reward instead of the ~1g per path daily? the issue was clear – it printed money (took a while to realize this issue, as with most things anet allegedy “keeps an eye” on)….so stop making it print money and give other options?? maybe lodestones, T6 mats, you know, something similar of value but doesn’t print money for the market….

Anet, The community has every right to bash you on this move – you literally let this happen and now you say “eh, too bad for you dung lovers”….

So I wonder if the pvp dungeon rewards tracks are getting removed? Dev’s response would be appreciated

JediYoda.1275:

So I wonder if the pvp dungeon rewards tracks are getting removed? Dev’s response would be appreciated

And why would they do that?

I see these changes with mixed feelings…positive as like negative… because alot of these changes do remind me on stupid child behavior, that ditches its current “toy”, because it got a new toy that looks better and gets from now on al the attention, while the old thing gets neglected and ignored, treated as ugly/boring and not good enough anymore..

Thats exactly anet is doing here right now with Dungeons since pretty much the release of they game. They never really did much for Dungeons at all, other than removing one path of the Twilight Arbor and replacing it with the Twilight Psth, getting most likely not the reaactions out of the community for that that they liked to see and neglected from this point on more and more <Dungeons to the point, that they now want to willingly deincentivize players from playing Dungeons by making dungeons just literally a waste of time, nerfing all the rewards from it into nothingness and shifting them over into other parts of the game so that they forcefully have to to them from that point on, if you want to maintain your current level of money gain as good as possible…

because lets face it, doing the dungeon paths is currently the only efficienty way in this whole freaking game to make efficiently quickl a nice amount of gold, unless you are a TP flipper, or you are mystically born with permanent supernatural luck with a heart shaped after a 4 leaf clover blessed by Fortuna herself

However.. instead of decreasing the incentive to do dungeons.. ANet should increase it!!
That would be the right way to do it…. Dungeons are massively lacking content and incentive to do then, since you can unlock all the skins alot faster with PvP reward tracks, you gain money also too with Pvp, sure not as much as like with a dungeon, but you can do more PvP matches in the time you need to do a single dungeon run and if you are good at PvP and have good team mates, im sure you can make with PvP also more money than with a dungeon n in the same time… A PvP Win gets you like 30 Silver or so.. so to be equal with a Dungeon run you’d need to make 4 wins.
You can make daily up to 40 Gold with PvP via ranked/unranked battles and self made arena, thats more gold than you get with a daily run of all dungeons together all pathes if you are seriously that much into pvp that you do daily practicalyl nearly nothign else!!

GW2 has since release already always had huge problems with offering APPROPIATE REWARDS for all game modes and now they want to make the imo dumbest move in game history that would be possible to do and want to willingly deincentivize players to do a part of their games content???

I seriously smell after Hot release a MASS EXODUS of players if they really do this move!
Alot of players won#t be for 100% sure happy about these changes, if you willingly butcher dungeon rewards to “junk level”, just so that you force people to do fractals/raids just to get better rewards that will then most likely just be of the level that dungeons were before around and in case of raids even be locked behind a weekly time gate!!!

Instead of doing this dumb move, I propose it would be much wiser for the game to do exactly the total opposite and finalyl stop ignoring Dungeons as game content and put into it finalyl the attention that it deserves to be improved and optimized to give playes a much better incentivation to do dungeons, because you can actually earn there something truly unique, that just can’t be fart farmed through PvP reward tracks which undermine the dungeon content since they got implemented, only because there were some pvp players too lazy to do PvE just to earn some skins…while it is suddenly ok to force all other kinds of players to play PvP just to get some skins without gettign also a method implemented with that you can circumvent the game modes that you don’t like while still beign able to earn the skins that you want… rolleyes

Dungeons should finally receive improved incentivations by gettign added new Ascended Dungeon Weapons/Armors/Back Items that cost alot more tokens and can be earned only through doing dungeons and not via pvp reward tracks.
Then we can talk. That would be the right kind of incentivation for the future of dungeons to keep them alive and with such kind of conmtent I would find it then also ok, if dungeons reward you after HoT then with lesser gold, because I would knew then, that my dungeon runs aren’t a waste of time, because I am working on something, that I can earn also something only in this game with actually doing dungeon runs without that there are any other circumventing quicker methods for some lazy whiners, whichnever want to leave their tiny personal comfort zones for a single freaking time top get something what they desire !!

Dungeons need more content depths, theres alot of unused potential for dungeon conent and it shouldn’t be just so easily thrown away and neglected by anet now, only because the game gets a new toy called “raids” >.>

I know, reworking more the dungeons is alot of work, but work that would be absolutely worth it to be done to make GW2 in general just a much better and more fun game to play and Anet has shown already that they can always reiterate things completely new and improve things also with feature packs and maybe also with expansions,.. so why not also too make Dungeons in the future a much better game experience, than just doing the lazy way and nerfing that content to death, just because theres now a better designed and smarter implemented new toy feature soon in the game called “Raids”

Dungeosn are their totally own content in themself and they should get supported and improved also further in the future of this game, instead of being left behind in the “old ugly toy desert of retired features”

SkiTz.4590:

This is just frustratingly sad….

Why don’t you just delete dungeons? honestly, you clearly just stated you don’t want players doing them…

Where did they state that they don’t want players doing dungeons?

Ayrilana.1396:

SkiTz.4590:

This is just frustratingly sad….

Why don’t you just delete dungeons? honestly, you clearly just stated you don’t want players doing them…

Where did they state that they don’t want players doing dungeons?

Page 1 of this thread.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

JediYoda.1275:

So I wonder if the pvp dungeon rewards tracks are getting removed? Dev’s response would be appreciated

And why would they do that?

I ask given Anet’s history of swinging the nerf bat, so it wouldn’t surprise me if they do.

After all we are talking about the very same people who removed feeding cows hay to having to dance/entertain for the cows instead in Queens Dale (Help Daih tend her farm heart quest).They stated it was too hard for players to figures out to feed cows hay from all their meta data they claim. Despite Heart Quest even telling the players what you need to do to complete said heart quest. Talking about an insult to players base intelligence.

Morhyn.8032:

Ayrilana.1396:

SkiTz.4590:

This is just frustratingly sad….

Why don’t you just delete dungeons? honestly, you clearly just stated you don’t want players doing them…

Where did they state that they don’t want players doing dungeons?

Page 1 of this thread.

Nowhere does he state that they do not want players doing dungeons.

Will ectos become more rare with the salving changes?

JediYoda.1275:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

JediYoda.1275:

So I wonder if the pvp dungeon rewards tracks are getting removed? Dev’s response would be appreciated

And why would they do that?

I ask given Anet’s history of swinging the nerf bat, so it wouldn’t surprise me if they do.

After all we are talking about the very same people who removed feeding cows hay to having to dance/entertain for the cows instead in Queens Dale (Help Daih tend her farm heart quest).They stated it was too hard for players to figures out to feed cows hay from all their meta data they claim. Despite Heart Quest even telling the players what you need to do to complete said heart quest. Talking about an insult to players base intelligence.

I think it wasn’t feeding hay but more that new players would pick up the hay or bucket and then get attacked by bandits and couldn’t figure out how to drop it, since they didn’t know about the swap button.

Granted, that could have had a pop up teaching instructions with an arrow pointing to the swap button, but for some reason they don’t seem to want to go the instruction route.

Ayrilana.1396:

Morhyn.8032:

Ayrilana.1396:

SkiTz.4590:

This is just frustratingly sad….

Why don’t you just delete dungeons? honestly, you clearly just stated you don’t want players doing them…

Where did they state that they don’t want players doing dungeons?

Page 1 of this thread.

Nowhere does he state that they do not want players doing dungeons.

Disincentivizing Dungeons makes it pretty clear on their intent as they rather have players play the new content instead plus revamped fractals.

JediYoda.1275:

Ayrilana.1396:

Morhyn.8032:

Ayrilana.1396:

SkiTz.4590:

This is just frustratingly sad….

Why don’t you just delete dungeons? honestly, you clearly just stated you don’t want players doing them…

Where did they state that they don’t want players doing dungeons?

Page 1 of this thread.

Nowhere does he state that they do not want players doing dungeons.

Disincentivizing Dungeons makes it pretty clear on their intent as they rather have players play the new content instead plus revamped fractals.

Read the rest of his post. Shifting some of the gold rewards away from dungeons to other areas of the game is not the same as not wanting players to do dungeons.

Ayrilana.1396:

Morhyn.8032:

Ayrilana.1396:

SkiTz.4590:

This is just frustratingly sad….

Why don’t you just delete dungeons? honestly, you clearly just stated you don’t want players doing them…

Where did they state that they don’t want players doing dungeons?

Page 1 of this thread.

Nowhere does he state that they do not want players doing dungeons.

He was asked if it was to deincentivize dungeons, then flat out said ‘yes’; nothing more.

Ayrilana.1396:

JediYoda.1275:

Ayrilana.1396:

Morhyn.8032:

Ayrilana.1396:

SkiTz.4590:

This is just frustratingly sad….

Why don’t you just delete dungeons? honestly, you clearly just stated you don’t want players doing them…

Where did they state that they don’t want players doing dungeons?

Page 1 of this thread.

Nowhere does he state that they do not want players doing dungeons.

Disincentivizing Dungeons makes it pretty clear on their intent as they rather have players play the new content instead plus revamped fractals.

Read the rest of his post. Shifting some of the gold rewards away from dungeons to other areas of the game is not the same as not wanting players to do dungeons.

I’ve read it and I just don’t buy that’s their only motive

JediYoda.1275:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

JediYoda.1275:

So I wonder if the pvp dungeon rewards tracks are getting removed? Dev’s response would be appreciated

And why would they do that?

I ask given Anet’s history of swinging the nerf bat, so it wouldn’t surprise me if they do.

After all we are talking about the very same people who removed feeding cows hay to having to dance/entertain for the cows instead in Queens Dale (Help Daih tend her farm heart quest).They stated it was too hard for players to figures out to feed cows hay from all their meta data they claim. Despite Heart Quest even telling the players what you need to do to complete said heart quest. Talking about an insult to players base intelligence.

Yeah I shook my head at the bundle fiasco. Like really?

But, I don’t think they would remove the ward tracks unless they were removing the dungeons. Which they aren’t. They are just dialing back (significantly) on the raw gold each path awards as a means of pushing people out of that content. People will still want the tokens for assorted reasons, and the pvp tracks offer that.

JediYoda.1275:

Ayrilana.1396:

JediYoda.1275:

Ayrilana.1396:

Morhyn.8032:

Ayrilana.1396:

SkiTz.4590:

This is just frustratingly sad….

Why don’t you just delete dungeons? honestly, you clearly just stated you don’t want players doing them…

Where did they state that they don’t want players doing dungeons?

Page 1 of this thread.

Nowhere does he state that they do not want players doing dungeons.

Disincentivizing Dungeons makes it pretty clear on their intent as they rather have players play the new content instead plus revamped fractals.

Read the rest of his post. Shifting some of the gold rewards away from dungeons to other areas of the game is not the same as not wanting players to do dungeons.

I’ve read it and I just don’t buy that’s their only motive

Of course. Since them redoing a lot of rewards, and having to rebalance, must mean that they have some heinous motive and are out to get those players who do dungeons.

JediYoda.1275:

Ayrilana.1396:

Morhyn.8032:

Ayrilana.1396:

SkiTz.4590:

This is just frustratingly sad….

Why don’t you just delete dungeons? honestly, you clearly just stated you don’t want players doing them…

Where did they state that they don’t want players doing dungeons?

Page 1 of this thread.

Nowhere does he state that they do not want players doing dungeons.

Disincentivizing Dungeons makes it pretty clear on their intent as they rather have players play the new content instead plus revamped fractals.

I think I disagree. They want to stop people from running them for gold, but not for other reasons.

The problem here doesn’t seem to be the dungeons themselves, but the amount of the reward they give and how players seem to have come to view them. That’s why I’m asking about any further changes to dungeons (perhaps solo versions incoming?) and why they see dungeons as a problem but not fractals. (Economically speaking, I don’t see a difference.)

Will players who don’t own HoT be able to have fractal masteries? If not then players who don’t own HoT will be at a disadvantage in fractals. Nerfing dungeons seems like a punishment to those players who bought the core game but haven’t bought the expansion. Yes, fractals was part of the core game but with HoT fractals masteries this makes it different.

Averath.6283:

Frank.7452:

Uh, no. I played PvP before reward tracks existed because I found it fun. The same goes for WvW and the chests.

There are players that only do the most economically incentivized thing, which is why there are some commanders that will run in circles in the Silverwastes for more than 10 hours straight. They are the minority in the game. They are the people freaking out right now, because someone moved their cheese.

PvP and WvW are similar, because they’re both considered “player vs player”. It’s like Battlegrounds vs Arenas in WoW. They’re both PvP. You also don’t really play PvP in other games for monetary gain, you play it for a different gain. Satisfaction and renown. That’s entirely different from PvE. Much of the content in PvE isn’t exceptionally challenging, so it lacks satisfaction and renown (until Raids, of course).

Anyone who doesn’t PvP and wants to progress in the game needs gold. Therefore they need to participate in content that gives them gold. If they want gold, then they’ll do the most effective method to gain gold. It’s just as simple as that. The massive number of players who partake of SW and who participated in the Boss Blitz back in the day illustrate this pretty well.

That’s a whooooole lot of generalization. First off, some games you do play pvp for monetary gains (ArcheAge for one has you PvP to gain honor to get some of the best upgrades for gear, that can sell for very nice prices). Two, GW2 is NOT “other games”. Particularly, GW2 is modeled around the three gamemodes rather than just PvE. And last, profitable PvE doesn’t instinctively mean that it lacks satisfaction and renown. Some games do have engaging fights with prestigious rewards.

Dashingsteel.3410:

Will players who don’t own HoT be able to have fractal masteries? If not then players who don’t own HoT will be at a disadvantage in fractals. Nerfing dungeons seems like a punishment to those players who bought the core game but haven’t bought the expansion. Yes, fractals was part of the core game but with HoT fractals masteries this makes it different.

They won’t. They also haven’t gone in detail with exactly what the mastery will provide but it’s not unheard of for players who purchase an expansion to have an advantage over those that do not. That tends to be how things work out.

Smacks of pay to win…. just a little

I kinda doubt raids will be a viable source of money either, even after farm-status.

-This is stuff that is being balanced around full ascended which.. to many isnt a huge cost since we have it already, on many characters, but its still a huge cost none the less if you dont. Now we’re telling those people without to suffer through DC/zergfest SW or endure low end fracs which also have ascended req gates?

-There is not likely going to be tons of the smaller drops we get from dungeons killing trash etc. Small amounts from all that junk but they add up when you do dungeon trains.

-Until raids are on farm status they could even be a gold sink, with 1-2-maybe even 3 nights a week to learn stuff depending on how hard it is burning through high-end consumables that will prolly only shoot up in price if their necessity becomes more important.

-Rewards in raids are once a week % odds at unique skins / legendary doodads. Kinda doubt its going to be an hour long romp for 50g even after its all on farm status.

Are ‘new’ fractals even that much better than current dungeons?

-There are plenty of dungeon paths now that are very unrewarding. What is to stop every dungeon path from falling into that ‘never’ played category once this goes live?

-If last statement happens, arent we basically losing viable farm instances since fractals (content that has also gone nearly unsupported for years) have gotten no new maps? Are we getting new ‘islands’ or whatever you call them in HoT? Or are we sort of losing content in this.

-To further that, in fractals themselves, most people already ‘roll’ for swamp, bypassing ever seeing the underwater one. In the new system we’ll be picking/choosing which ones we do even more-so. Whats to prevent several of the buggier less desirable fracs from becoming just as undesirable as some of the current dungeon paths today?

Some questionable gameplay decisions going on here, no one that actually plays Guild Wars 2 would want dungeons to become obsolete and that is exactly what is going on.

You are getting quite some heat in this topic John, but deservedly so.

If you decrease gold gain in dungeons, will you also decrease chest gain in SW?
I think running a dungeon is less grindy then SW chest farming. :P

Ayrilana.1396:

JediYoda.1275:

Ayrilana.1396:

JediYoda.1275:

Ayrilana.1396:

Morhyn.8032:

Ayrilana.1396:

SkiTz.4590:

This is just frustratingly sad….

Why don’t you just delete dungeons? honestly, you clearly just stated you don’t want players doing them…

Where did they state that they don’t want players doing dungeons?

Page 1 of this thread.

Nowhere does he state that they do not want players doing dungeons.

Disincentivizing Dungeons makes it pretty clear on their intent as they rather have players play the new content instead plus revamped fractals.

Read the rest of his post. Shifting some of the gold rewards away from dungeons to other areas of the game is not the same as not wanting players to do dungeons.

I’ve read it and I just don’t buy that’s their only motive

Of course. Since them redoing a lot of rewards, and having to rebalance, must mean that they have some heinous motive and are out to get those players who do dungeons.

It’s very clear they want it to be dead content

If you want to take everything they say at face value by all means do so, while others like myself will take allot of what they say with a grain of salt and rightly so. They have said allot over the years and their actions don’t always back up it and still haven’t on some things to date still. Before release of core game they said dyes will be account bound, all five mini games would be in at release then on release nope that wasn’t the case at all. They later flip flopped and made dyes account bound, little over 3 years later still not all mini games that was promised. (Just 2 examples out of more I could give)

So excuse me for not taking everything they say like its the gospel.

If the economy is so bad right now then why you don’t add repair costs back. That’s like huge gold sink right there. Oh wait…. it will not force people in to HoT.

While I agree, John, that the issue of the “liquid” rewards from dungeons throws the in-game economy out of wack, the thought of ANet nerfing all dungeon runs as a whole without accounting for a path by path basis is extremely disheartening. Ideally, each path should be balanced by the average amount of time and effort it requires to clear it. Make the easy paths pay less, then have the harder difficulty paths reward more. If not in “liquid” currency, then use materials or whatever the numbers you aggregate say to. The Aether path of TA is a glaringly obvious example. Beautifully designed and moderately challenging but partnered with pitiful rewards.

But, of course, it would make sense to put the effort into something that you desire to support long term. Taking monetary incentive away from dungeons, as you said John, is the best admission we have to date that ANet has no intention to support dungeons. I mean, as a player, I figured as much back when the dev team behind dungeons were let go after release but that simple “Yes” is the final nail in the coffin.

The only haunting suspicion I retain is that this attitude will remain prevalent throughout the rest of Guild Wars 2 life-cycle. Instead of using new and current content to keep players playing, we’ll get periodic “readjustments” from the devs to persuade us to try and play with the next new, expensive, toy. Replace Dungeons with Fractals, then Fractals with Raids, then Raids with the next big thing… and so on.

This is sad. I enjoy doing dungeons and have felt them rewarding. Now with this change I will not even step foot in one. Tokens? I have most all the skins, I still have yet to complete some of them, but to me the skins are not worth my time, especially if you get into groups that are terrible. The gold was nice incentive to do them, helped with some of my crafting needs, now there is NO incentive to do them.

The bottom line is Anet wants us to stop making gold, because we are using are gold and buying gems with them, so they get no $$. IF I had known about all these nerf’s a few weeks ago id probably would not have bought the expansion or maybe not the ultimate edtion. I did that to help support your game with my pocket book, and now your slapping me in the face , thanks a lot. Untill I see where this is leading I will not be using my pocket book on you anymore.

Hey John, I was wondering if anyone had proposed this particular idea.

Put the daily dungeon chests on a weekly reset like raid rewards will be, instead of nerfing the gold output directly. Alternatively could do both, but just not nerf the gold output as harshly.

This way players can still do the dungeons to get a decent amount of cash, but you don’t have people doing CoF1 once per day every single day. They either have to spread out and do other paths during that week, or be satisfied with what they got from the easier paths until the reset. Figure that would do enough to deincentivise doing dungeons all the time for income, since Fractals would still have daily rewards.

Kamui.3150:

Hey John, I was wondering if anyone had proposed this particular idea.

Put the daily dungeon chests on a weekly reset like raid rewards will be, instead of nerfing the gold output directly. Alternatively could do both, but just not nerf the gold output as harshly.

This way players can still do the dungeons to get a decent amount of cash, but you don’t have people doing CoF1 once per day every single day. They either have to spread out and do other paths during that week, or be satisfied with what they got from the easier paths until the reset. Figure that would do enough to deincentivise doing dungeons all the time for income, since Fractals would still have daily rewards.

This would be a better idea, we who still like dungeons would run it at least 1 time for week, and then we would focus on Fractals. This helps it become less repetitive also, because only doing fractals arent that fun ( at least not if ANet doesnt add more ).

Kamui.3150:

Hey John, I was wondering if anyone had proposed this particular idea.

Put the daily dungeon chests on a weekly reset like raid rewards will be, instead of nerfing the gold output directly. Alternatively could do both, but just not nerf the gold output as harshly.

This way players can still do the dungeons to get a decent amount of cash, but you don’t have people doing CoF1 once per day every single day. They either have to spread out and do other paths during that week, or be satisfied with what they got from the easier paths until the reset. Figure that would do enough to deincentivise doing dungeons all the time for income, since Fractals would still have daily rewards.

Fair compromise I would say

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Torolan.5816:

@König des Todes
You don´t know Anet won´t drop them. You just don´t. If the next cycle of fotm content is reached, raids may be dropped quickly again under the flag of “This is new, this is groundbreaking, this is exciting!”. Could very well reasonably happen.
Konrad Adenauer probably said it best:
“What do I care for my speech from yesterday?”

Exactly. My. Point.

Technically, we can never know for sure.

But now ArenaNet has given us empirical evidence that would support them dropping it. Because just about all past “new, groundbreaking, exciting” stuff they did end up dropping after 1 or 2 iterations.

There was plenty of empirical evidence for that theory early on, you even named a few:
-New Dungeons. Speaks for itself.
-Southsun
-World bosses revamped after triple trouble. They technically were revamped with more HP and a slightly harder mechanic in most cases, but that was it.
-Various non PvP leaderboards. i dont know why Anet is so bend on making PvP viable in spite of most people agreeing that it will never be popular,. but here we go again.
-Abaddon fractal. About to be added later when Ellen Kiel was elected. Well, ok, maybe in HoT.
-No grind. LS2 for example has plenty of pure, snore inducing but still hard to do grind.
-No raids. I have to give that it took them 3 years to finally give in on that one, but the protesters were obviously loud enough.
-SAB.
-Wvw rewards. will robably be adressed, elsewise see the no raids point.

John Smith.4610:

Is the intention to deincentivize dungeons
Yes

Why would you want people to to play a kind of content less? Dungeons are a core piece of each MMO.

JediYoda.1275:

Ayrilana.1396:

JediYoda.1275:

Ayrilana.1396:

JediYoda.1275:

Ayrilana.1396:

Morhyn.8032:

Ayrilana.1396:

SkiTz.4590:

This is just frustratingly sad….

Why don’t you just delete dungeons? honestly, you clearly just stated you don’t want players doing them…

Where did they state that they don’t want players doing dungeons?

Page 1 of this thread.

Nowhere does he state that they do not want players doing dungeons.

Disincentivizing Dungeons makes it pretty clear on their intent as they rather have players play the new content instead plus revamped fractals.

Read the rest of his post. Shifting some of the gold rewards away from dungeons to other areas of the game is not the same as not wanting players to do dungeons.

I’ve read it and I just don’t buy that’s their only motive

Of course. Since them redoing a lot of rewards, and having to rebalance, must mean that they have some heinous motive and are out to get those players who do dungeons.

It’s very clear they want it to be dead content

If you want to take everything they say at face value by all means do so, while others like myself will take allot of what they say with a grain of salt and rightly so. They have said allot over the years and their actions don’t always back up it and still haven’t on some things to date still. Before release of core game they said dyes will be account bound, all five mini games would be in at release then on release nope that wasn’t the case at all. They later flip flopped and made dyes account bound, little over 3 years later still not all mini games that was promised. (Just 2 examples out of more I could give)

So excuse me for not taking everything they say like its the gospel.

No it’s not clear that they want dungeons to be dead content. You’re just making the assumption by reading to much into what they’re doing and not understanding the why.

Malediktus.9250:

John Smith.4610:

Is the intention to deincentivize dungeons
Yes

Why would you want people to to play a kind of content less? Dungeons are a core piece of each MMO.

Because fractals and raids. My take is they want fractals to be the new dungeons, and the dungeons to be sort of training wheels for fractals, which in turn are training wheels for raids. Which in turn will be training for when all of us unite to press one button to defeat mordremoth as he clings to the side of the Pale Tree at the final battle.

[quote=5602939;John Smith.4610:

Is the intention to deincentivize dungeons
Yes
[/quote]

Why? Why do you want people whom enjoy running dungeons, part of the enjoyment being derived from the current incentive for completion, to be dis-incentivized?

I assume that the issue isn’t solely that it represents an effective way for players to make money, as it is not the most profitable endeavor, correct?

Is part of the reason because it is a profitable endeavor that you cannot control because it generates a fixed reward? (though you have already restricted that reward to once a day)

Whereas I suppose if you wanted to make silverwastes or other drop based farming less profitable you could always just stealth nerf the drops, is that part of the reason why those methods of the wealth generation are more appealing to you?

Is it because this generates significant actual gold currency as opposed to items which can be sold for gold?

Is it because the gold generated by this is added to the economy, whereas drop based wealth is shifting of gold that exists in the economy already and is “taxed” when exchanged?

Have you considered that simply making your other content far more enjoyable would be a way to get players to shift activities? If so, were they not as enjoyable as you’d hoped to dis-incentivize folks from dungeon runs?

Perhaps your efforts would be better spent making more enjoyable game offerings that offer less reward? Essentially PvP can be seen as a model of this… it is far less profitable than running dungeons but people choose to do it instead.

Why not simply make your game have better new activities rather than having to prop them up by making existing ones less rewarding?

I think the question above is really what makes people sour. You should design it so the new stuff is so fun to do that they willingly leave, not use the stick on people who pay to play your game.

Ayrilana.1396:

JediYoda.1275:

Ayrilana.1396:

JediYoda.1275:

Ayrilana.1396:

JediYoda.1275:

Ayrilana.1396:

Morhyn.8032:

Ayrilana.1396:

SkiTz.4590:

This is just frustratingly sad….

Why don’t you just delete dungeons? honestly, you clearly just stated you don’t want players doing them…

Where did they state that they don’t want players doing dungeons?

Page 1 of this thread.

Nowhere does he state that they do not want players doing dungeons.

Disincentivizing Dungeons makes it pretty clear on their intent as they rather have players play the new content instead plus revamped fractals.

Read the rest of his post. Shifting some of the gold rewards away from dungeons to other areas of the game is not the same as not wanting players to do dungeons.

I’ve read it and I just don’t buy that’s their only motive

Of course. Since them redoing a lot of rewards, and having to rebalance, must mean that they have some heinous motive and are out to get those players who do dungeons.

It’s very clear they want it to be dead content

If you want to take everything they say at face value by all means do so, while others like myself will take allot of what they say with a grain of salt and rightly so. They have said allot over the years and their actions don’t always back up it and still haven’t on some things to date still. Before release of core game they said dyes will be account bound, all five mini games would be in at release then on release nope that wasn’t the case at all. They later flip flopped and made dyes account bound, little over 3 years later still not all mini games that was promised. (Just 2 examples out of more I could give)

So excuse me for not taking everything they say like its the gospel.

No it’s not clear that they want dungeons to be dead content. You’re just making the assumption by reading to much into what they’re doing and not understanding the why.

Oh please, and please don’t try to insult my intelligence! also this is my last reply to you.