Guild Wars 2

Thing is no PvE player will have the elite specs unlocked. If it is retroactive, then WvW players are ahead. If it isn’t, then people are in the same boat. PvErs still have to complete 40 Maguuma hearts which won’t be a piece of cake.

/saracasm

Oh no… I actually have to play content to unlock stuff.

@DeceiverX

If there has been any misleading here it is you who have misled yourself. There is 0 reason to expect things to have turned out any differently if you have had any experience with MMOs, played this game at launch, or just got off the boat after spending ten years in Guild Wars 1.

They wouldn’t be eliminating liquid WvW XP if it were retroactive.

Lorelei.7809:

Thing is no PvE player will have the elite specs unlocked. If it is retroactive, then WvW players are ahead. If it isn’t, then people are in the same boat. PvErs still have to complete 40 Maguuma hearts which won’t be a piece of cake.

I will have it unlock, i have 200 points waiting for Friday, to use.

@SamTheGuardian

You should change your name to “SamTheMasterOfHyperbole.”

I main 4 classes in WvW… I’m highly proficient in them all. Guardian, Necro, Warrior, Ranger. Only my Guard and my war have done ANYTHING in PVE they are both at 100%. The two I want elite on? Of course my Necro and Ranger, the two that were literally born and bred in WvW ONLY. So no I get to grind out 800HP for the two of them bc my chosen game mode on them has been WvW? Seriously?

Also, here is another point why this is ridiculous. You realize this system actually forces 1 class to not be able to unlock it’s elite at all at launch? Revenant. Even if you tome one to 80 you will need to grind out 60 to unlock it’s Elite. EVERY other class can stockpile 60 to have elite at least unlocked launch day. Revenant bc it doesn’t exist yet is just “kittened”

There are MYRIAD of reasons why this system SHOULD NOT be implemented and so far the only real reason I’ve heard for it is bc you need something to work towards…

Ummm tell you what, how about I work towards the time gated masteries, or the progression raiding for legendary armor, or the level 100 fractals, or scribing, or helping my guild build the guild hall, or the new legendaires? All of these things locked behind time… Why include core class mechanics to that list? That makes absolutely zero sense to me. We have ENOUGH to work towards already, not having our new elites to experience the content with first day is a travesty.

You know what you are doing as a company? You are turning your shiny new xpac maps into a silverwaste for HP the first month… All you will see is LFG for HP trains. Which is sad. You now have forced players into a no win situation. 1) Do I take my time with the content and explore it as I should absorbing all and thus be a detriment to my guild on the battlefield for bringing a non elite OR 2) do I ruin my xpac experience and just HPtrain the map like so many others will be doing…

Every day I see these announcements and just when I thought it couldn’t get any worse, this is appalling…

and to those of you that will throw out the obligatory if you don’t like it go elsewhere… I LOVE this game. I’ve done almost everything there is to do. I’ve almost completed my set of legendaries. I’ve map completed. I’ve AP chased. I’ve maxed fractals. I’ve given time and effort and boatloads of money (Id consider myself to be what most here would call a whale) to support this game and community I love and sadly every day leading up to this expansion has been a total disappointment…

This 400HP wall is poorly designed and poorly executed. You want to lock elites behind something? Do it behind personal story. Make going from a regular necro to becoming a REAPER an EXPERIENCE to remember. BUILD the elite specializations into the story!!! Then they would truly mean something instead of locking them behind time just for the sake of it. All you are doing is a disservice to those that have been most loyal to you… your fans, your players, your gaming family. I know it’s probably to little to late to implement fixes to this, I just hope you all at HQ realize what you’ve done and how deeply we as a community are disappointed.

In 3 years of gaming you have never made me question a single dime of the exorbitant amount I have spent… until now. Give us back the GW2 we know and love…

Lorelei.7809:

Thing is no PvE player will have the elite specs unlocked. If it is retroactive, then WvW players are ahead. If it isn’t, then people are in the same boat. PvErs still have to complete 40 Maguuma hearts which won’t be a piece of cake.

For time spent in game if you compare how many HP you would get in 12 hours vs how many WvW lvls you would get in 12 hours, then you would be aware of the glaring issue.

Time spent should be relatively equal, WvW is expected to take a bit longer due to the nature of how it works and the dependence of other player, but I’d wager if you spend the same amount of time grinding those HP in the Jungle as a WvW player spend grind the ranks his 2 weeks will equal 2-3 days for you.

The one to Rule.2593:

Black Box.9312:

The one to Rule.2593:

I just don’t get people. first it was " we need something to do! living world sucks!" Now it’s “OMG I HAVE TO DO THINGS??”

This is a dumb point, because people were planning on doing the content anyway.

This was a dumb post, because I was planning on replying anyway. See how useless both of our comments were now?

People have explained repeatedly exactly what’s wrong with what you’re saying. People don’t want to have to grind to just USE their elite spec. They want to be able to jump on their Engi, train Scrapper for a reasonable amount of points, then go do WvW, guild missions, fractals, etc. NO ONE wants to be forced to go grind and regrind hero points before their class is usable aside from the minority of people who have one single main character and zero fear of having to do this process over and over and over on all their characters.

Random.4691:

Lorelei.7809:

Thing is no PvE player will have the elite specs unlocked. If it is retroactive, then WvW players are ahead. If it isn’t, then people are in the same boat. PvErs still have to complete 40 Maguuma hearts which won’t be a piece of cake.

For time spent in game if you compare how many HP you would get in 12 hours vs how many WvW lvls you would get in 12 hours, then you would be aware of the glaring issue.

Time spent should be relatively equal, WvW is expected to take a bit longer due to the nature of how it works and the dependence of other player, but I’d wager if you spend the same amount of time grinding those HP in the Jungle as a WvW player spend grind the ranks his 2 weeks will equal 2-3 days for you.

And even a greater disparity once you get past the first few characters.

PvE players get faster at getting all the hero points. Their skill and the knowledge of where the points are gets better and lets them complete them faster.

WvW ranks are ranks. And there’s bound to be an upper limit on ranks at some point. You can’t really shave much time off of one rank. And to some degree is limited by what you enjoy doing in WvW. The scout isn’t going to climb ranks as fast as the zerg commander for instance. The scout isn’t doing anything that gets WXP. The zerg commander does.

I think the point of the post was missed.

Devs create content and mechanics…supposed majority of forum expresses discontent. (I’m sure the Devs usually try to placate the majority; at least it seems that way.)

Devs change/offer new content and mechanics…supposed majority of forum expresses discontent.

No matter what Devs do, seemingly majority forum expresses discontent.

It may be none of the same posters, some of the same posters, all of the same posters. It really matters not.

Tasao.4623:

Halvorn.9831:

Tasao.4623:

Core gameplay should NOT be gated behind a grind.

What are you even talking about? In the core game, don’t you have to level to 80 in order to go to cursed shores? So cursed shores is gated behind a grind as well, isn’kitten

There’s plenty of other content other than Cursed Shore to do when you’re not at 80.
But that’s to be expected while leveling. But if you want to dive into the jungle, or do world bosses, or do halloween content, or anything else out in the world on an alt, being faced with a big grind just to unlock your elite spec’s base functionality is absurd. The CONTENT is what should occupy you. Not the unlocking of the abilities and traits you want to use on that content.

Do you require your elite specs to go to the jungle? No.

You want to do it. Like someone who just starts the game and wants to go to Arah.

What the heck did you all expect the content to be? Of course there has to be some sort of time drain. No company on this planet can provide you with thousands of hours of non-repetitive endgame content.

sephiroth.4217:

IMO paying $50 for the expansion should have unlocked the skills, depending on how long it takes to unlock 17 character elites it might just be easier to request a refund for me.

In my opinion, there is something seriously wrong with the atmosphere that has fostered this belief in you that having 17 maxed out characters is a reasonable expectation.

It’s here the thread for help ?
13 toons lvl 80 at expansion release.

At least I need the specialisation for all those :
2 guards one PvE -one WvW.
2 war one PvE -one WvW.
2 rev one PvE -one WvW
1 ranger PvE
1 engie PvE
2 necros one PvE -one WvW.
1 mesmer pve.

Kind of suck.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/hot/elite-specializations-how-many-hero-points/page/6#post5627999

Here is where they say it.

Again, hero challenges are worth 10 points each in the jungle. So no you don’t need to go do 200-400 jungle challenges.
They do say this so everyone calm down. It is not as bad as you think it is.

Schurge.5194:

@SamTheGuardian

You should change your name to “SamTheMasterOfHyperbole.”

what you see as something small I see as a big deal. You have your reasons for being passive on this I have mine for not being passive about it. One thing I said weeks ago that I felt would really hurt HoT is if the developers decided to make it so that for most players the Elite Specs weren’t available until 50% into the HoT content. They have done exactly that. 400 hero points available in HoT spread out of 3 maps (~13 hero points per map) assume 200 hero points to unlock enough traits to make a viable elite spec build and most won’t be there until half way though the expansion.

If you just play with a main and you’ve got map explorer done and all the core game hero points of course you don’t see the big deal and we won’t be looking at it the same way. On the positive side at least we have Reverent to look forward to.
.

If we have 40 challenges in the jungle that would make 400 points so It wont take as long and if it just like regular challenges like in Tyria then there really is no problem here.

I admit I’m a little disappointed. It’s not so much an “instant gratification” thing as an “i figured I’d be exploring the jungle WITH my new elite spec, not TO GET my new elite spec.”
I mean, I guess it gives the meta some time to settle before I invest in new armor stats. Oh well.

Halvorn.9831:

Tasao.4623:

Halvorn.9831:

Tasao.4623:

Core gameplay should NOT be gated behind a grind.

What are you even talking about? In the core game, don’t you have to level to 80 in order to go to cursed shores? So cursed shores is gated behind a grind as well, isn’kitten

There’s plenty of other content other than Cursed Shore to do when you’re not at 80.
But that’s to be expected while leveling. But if you want to dive into the jungle, or do world bosses, or do halloween content, or anything else out in the world on an alt, being faced with a big grind just to unlock your elite spec’s base functionality is absurd. The CONTENT is what should occupy you. Not the unlocking of the abilities and traits you want to use on that content.

Do you require your elite specs to go to the jungle? No.

You want to do it. Like someone who just starts the game and wants to go to Arah.

What the heck did you all expect the content to be? Of course there has to be some sort of time drain. No company on this planet can provide you with thousands of hours of non-repetitive endgame content.

GRINDING HERO POINTS IS NOT “CONTENT”. Especially if you have to do the same grind 9 times to cover every class in the game.
And reducing or removing that grind still leaves 99% of the HoT intact.
Your character is your avatar. Your tool. Your bridge between yourself and the content. Blocking off a chunk of that bridge for literally no reason does NOTHING to enhance the content you’re playing, and reducing or removing those blocks does nothing to cheapen all of the content they’re adding.

Elite Specs are a TOOL via which you experience content. They are hardly content themselves and any grind to unlock them is automatically unwarranted as a direct result. People just want to play HoT, or do Halloween, or run dungeons, or fractals, or WvW. But this decision to gate off elite specs behind an arbitrarily huge hero point hurdle directly inhibits a player’s ability to do that content as they choose to do it.

This is bad design. Period. You don’t like my comment, don’t read em, don’t respond to them, don’t use this forum at all if you disagree with literally anyone at all. THAT is the logic you’re telling us to use when we criticize this design decision.

ColinJohanson.2394:

PlatinumMember.5274:

Unless I am mistaken just to unlock half of the training line, we need 212 hero points?

It’s 400 points total to unlock everything in an elite spec training line – I just can’t remember off hand how many points folks have currently if they have done all the existing ones, but it’s right around 200. The rest you’ll need to earn in jungle to unlock the deeper skills/traits/etc. in the training line.

You only need 60 hero points to begin using your elite spec, the points you spend after that continue to unlock more skills, traits, skins, etc.

Again, hero challenges are worth 10 points each in the jungle. So no you don’t need to go do 200-400 jungle challenges.

Okay Collin literally said hero challenges are worth 10 points each in the jungle. so we need to do 10 challenges per 100 and that means 40 challenges for the 400. So stop freaking out this is not as bad as it seems. If we do not have a lot of challenges in the jungle and I highly doubt it then it is something to freak over. But right at the moment I do not find this to be a grind and it is not even that bad.

There’s no good reason or excuse to require the player to 100% unlock the base class before accessing the elite specialization. I can only equip 3 trait lines at a time, including the elite. Why in the kitten would I need to have fully unlocked 5 trait lines before I can slot the 6th? The only answer that can be given is “well, it extends the grind” and if that’s the only answer, then you need to rethink the design.

You get all those hero points just by leveling up. Lol. ‘extend the grind’ harrumph!

Elite Specs are a TOOL via which you experience content. They are hardly content themselves and any grind to unlock them is automatically unwarranted as a direct result.

The logical extension of this is that we should have all traits and skills unlocked at level 1. Doesn’t make much sense to me. On the flip side, the logical extension of the trait/skill unlock system is that elites were never just going to be handed to you just for being level 80.

these are ‘elite’ specs guys, the whole point is that they are further ways to develop your character.

Shoe.5821:

You get all those hero points just by leveling up. Lol. ‘extend the grind’ harrumph!

400 to unlock all base spe & spell.
400 to unlock elite spec.

That’s very logical. :sarcasm:

Doing the same challenge 40 times in a row to get an elite spec isn’t grind. sure.

The rest of your post is nonsense.

Let me introduce myself, I am :
_a WVW player( rank 3400 +), who like roaming and small scale fights and who used to zerg and gvg long time ago.
_i do some time some pvp to improve my skills and find players
_I have played GW2 for 3 years and i have bought some characters slot in gemstore to have all professions, and even same professions from others race sometimes:
A total of 10 characters lvl 80 with no or just a little map completion.

I know that i’m not the only one in this situation.
For us who have been waiting and buying HOT mostly for the new elite specs, the guild hall to fight in a sandbox arena, or the new WVW map how much disapointing this announce should be?
In fact players who will play WVW in a bit competitive way (it may be PPT, GVG , roaming) won’t have a choice with the current system of getting hero points.
These players will have to go in Maguuma Jungle PVE with each of their characters ( even if they got the same class with different races) because they won’t really have any other choice. The fact is, getting hero point will be much longer with the WVW system in my opinion. To fully unlock their elite spec for each of their characters in WVW must be a joke, if im not mistaking:
_ about 200 WVW rank and 6k badges?
The worst thing is that our actual WVW rank won’t be of any use once again even for those who spent a very long time in this game mode. Anet told they will change WVW EXP potions into a % bonus for a short period not to advantage players who wil gathered it before HOT. But don’t you think that its unfair to let the pve players who like doing map completion have an advantage of 210 points in that case?(I have nothing against PVE players, i think its too boring for them too if they have multiple characters)
The other thing is that i find the amount of badges ridiculous and not adapted to that. It will encourage people zerging to kill the more people per minute and not to care at all about roaming or real WVW strategy. Edge of the mist stupid zerg would be one of the most effective way to unlock your elite spec.
Doing the 400 HP one time on one character, why not? But doing it each time with each character is not human. Its not funny at all for a player like me having to do that 10 times.
Even PVE players will be bored not to play and explore the jungle with the spec they were waiting for if it takes too much long time on each of their characters.
To conclude, in my opinion you should reconsider some things about:
_how to find a way to make an easier grinding for players who already play multiclass
_how WVW actual rank of the player should have an impact in this
_how to obtain badges in WVW and not only earning them while killing people zerging , or opening chests in edge of the Mist zergs karmatrain
_how to win HP in the PVP mode. People who like PVP may also love doing some fights in WVW like in roaming,GVG, fighting in guilds arenas with Elite spec…
For them if it stays like that they won’t be able to grind at ll for what they like in WVW and guild arenas, and they are not the kind of players that will enjoy zerging or doing PVE to grind…
So I’m really scared you forgot a way for them to do that in PVP.
I aslo got 2 questions:
_how many HP you have to use just to unlock all the elite spec and not the skins/sigils/ runes?
_do you plan to give pvp players a way to win HP?
Thanks for reading, and please forgive me for my bad english(I hope you understood).

ChavaStark.9147:

ColinJohanson.2394:

PlatinumMember.5274:

Unless I am mistaken just to unlock half of the training line, we need 212 hero points?

It’s 400 points total to unlock everything in an elite spec training line – I just can’t remember off hand how many points folks have currently if they have done all the existing ones, but it’s right around 200. The rest you’ll need to earn in jungle to unlock the deeper skills/traits/etc. in the training line.

You only need 60 hero points to begin using your elite spec, the points you spend after that continue to unlock more skills, traits, skins, etc.

Again, hero challenges are worth 10 points each in the jungle. So no you don’t need to go do 200-400 jungle challenges.

Okay Collin literally said hero challenges are worth 10 points each in the jungle. so we need to do 10 challenges per 100 and that means 40 challenges for the 400. So stop freaking out this is not as bad as it seems. If we do not have a lot of challenges in the jungle and I highly doubt it then it is something to freak over. But right at the moment I do not find this to be a grind and it is not even that bad.

It is bad when people first stepping into the Jungle feel like they need to skip events and content and chase down hero points, or use a guide to find them all, so they can start HoT off with a full Elite spec traitline. That’s horrible. Especially when they go to play an alt and think “aww man I’ve gotta go running through the forest ignoring everything around me, collecting hero points, if I want to play with my Elite spec.”

Or worst of all “I really want to take my Engi to this daily fractal as a Scrapper but I’d have to go bouncing through the jungle grinding hero points just to unlock all the options. Why bother?”

This is how alts get shelved and stay shelved.

papry.8096:

Shoe.5821:

You get all those hero points just by leveling up. Lol. ‘extend the grind’ harrumph!

400 to unlock all base spe & spell.
400 to unlock elite spec.

That’s very logical. :sarcasm:

Doing the same challenge 40 times in a row to get an elite spec isn’t grind. sure.

The rest of your post is nonsense.

You get the first 400 toming up to 80 anyways.
And 40 challenges is not that much to get.

Tasao.4623:

ChavaStark.9147:

ColinJohanson.2394:

PlatinumMember.5274:

Unless I am mistaken just to unlock half of the training line, we need 212 hero points?

It’s 400 points total to unlock everything in an elite spec training line – I just can’t remember off hand how many points folks have currently if they have done all the existing ones, but it’s right around 200. The rest you’ll need to earn in jungle to unlock the deeper skills/traits/etc. in the training line.

You only need 60 hero points to begin using your elite spec, the points you spend after that continue to unlock more skills, traits, skins, etc.

Again, hero challenges are worth 10 points each in the jungle. So no you don’t need to go do 200-400 jungle challenges.

Okay Collin literally said hero challenges are worth 10 points each in the jungle. so we need to do 10 challenges per 100 and that means 40 challenges for the 400. So stop freaking out this is not as bad as it seems. If we do not have a lot of challenges in the jungle and I highly doubt it then it is something to freak over. But right at the moment I do not find this to be a grind and it is not even that bad.

It is bad when people first stepping into the Jungle feel like they need to skip events and content and chase down hero points, or use a guide to find them all, so they can start HoT off with a full Elite spec traitline. That’s horrible. Especially when they go to play an alt and think “aww man I’ve gotta go running through the forest ignoring everything around me, collecting hero points, if I want to play with my Elite spec.”

Or worst of all “I really want to take my Engi to this daily fractal as a Scrapper but I’d have to go bouncing through the jungle grinding hero points just to unlock all the options. Why bother?”

This is how alts get shelved and stay shelved.

Well you are right about that and it can become very tedious so if you tons of characters that it is a pain in the butt.

papry.8096:

Shoe.5821:

You get all those hero points just by leveling up. Lol. ‘extend the grind’ harrumph!

400 to unlock all base spe & spell.
400 to unlock elite spec.

That’s very logical. :sarcasm:

Doing the same challenge 40 times in a row to get an elite spec isn’t grind. sure.

The rest of your post is nonsense.

The 400 for the elite spec is for the full unlock including all the weapon and armour skins, sigils and runes.

BobbyT.7192:

papry.8096:

Shoe.5821:

You get all those hero points just by leveling up. Lol. ‘extend the grind’ harrumph!

400 to unlock all base spe & spell.
400 to unlock elite spec.

That’s very logical. :sarcasm:

Doing the same challenge 40 times in a row to get an elite spec isn’t grind. sure.

The rest of your post is nonsense.

You get the first 400 toming up to 80 anyways.
And 40 challenges is not that much to get.

Multiply that by 6 alts.

ChavaStark.9147:

If we have 40 challenges in the jungle that would make 400 points so It wont take as long and if it just like regular challenges like in Tyria then there really is no problem here.

Hate repeating myself, but to state again. The 40 hero challenges are spread across the three new maps. The maps are huge! so saying it “won’t take long” is like saying taking a new character and get map competition and 40 hero points in the core game “won’t take that long”. Prob 30-40 hours of play. Actually it could be hundreds of hours of play because you may need some of the masteries done to make it though certain parts of the maps to get to those illusive 10 point hero challenges.

Another negative is that a lot of players will focus on getting all the new hero challenges and ignore any kind of linear approach though the game world. Getting their Elite Specs fully unlocked will be all they care about. You’ll probably see guild teams focused on finding hero points instead of playing through the story and event content int he game. This will probably go on for first several months post launch. Along the way guild teams/parties will find their guild hall and focus on taking it at this point the progression of the story becomes a side note or perhaps even meaningless because the new focus is guild hall defense/building up and elite spec hero point challenges. Guildies will be pressured to scout out hero points instead of just playing though the new content as intended. Kind of game busting because it puts players at odds with each other

Sigmoid.7082:

The 400 for the elite spec is for the full unlock including all the weapon and armour skins, sigils and runes.

This was clear from day one. Your post is useless.

SamTheGuardian.2938:

ChavaStark.9147:

If we have 40 challenges in the jungle that would make 400 points so It wont take as long and if it just like regular challenges like in Tyria then there really is no problem here.

Hate repeating myself, but to state again. The 40 hero challenges are spread across the three new maps. The maps are huge! so saying it “won’t take long” is like saying taking a new character and get map competition and 40 hero points in the core game “won’t take that long”. Prob 30-40 hours of play. Another negative is that a lot of players will focus on getting all the new hero challenges and ignore the new world events. You’ll probably see guild teams focused on finding hero points instead of playing through the story and event content int he game. This will probably go on for the first few weeks. Along the way guild teams/parties will find their guild hall and focus on taking it at this point the progression of the story becomes a side note or perhaps even meaningless because the new focus is guild hall defense/building up and elite spec hero point challenges. Kind of game busting.

You are right.

papry.8096:

BobbyT.7192:

papry.8096:

Shoe.5821:

You get all those hero points just by leveling up. Lol. ‘extend the grind’ harrumph!

400 to unlock all base spe & spell.
400 to unlock elite spec.

That’s very logical. :sarcasm:

Doing the same challenge 40 times in a row to get an elite spec isn’t grind. sure.

The rest of your post is nonsense.

You get the first 400 toming up to 80 anyways.
And 40 challenges is not that much to get.

Multiply that by 6 alts.

How many you need depends on the placement on the unlock track. Since you are expecting to need the full 400 to get the final GM trait anything less would be a bonus to you.

papry.8096:

BobbyT.7192:

papry.8096:

Shoe.5821:

You get all those hero points just by leveling up. Lol. ‘extend the grind’ harrumph!

400 to unlock all base spe & spell.
400 to unlock elite spec.

That’s very logical. :sarcasm:

Doing the same challenge 40 times in a row to get an elite spec isn’t grind. sure.

The rest of your post is nonsense.

You get the first 400 toming up to 80 anyways.
And 40 challenges is not that much to get.

Multiply that by 6 alts.

7 alts here, soon to be 8, with full map completion on 3 of them, and the rest hovering between 50-75%
Not sympathetic one bit,

SamTheGuardian.2938:

Schurge.5194:

@SamTheGuardian

You should change your name to “SamTheMasterOfHyperbole.”

what you see as something small I see as a big deal. You have your reasons for being passive on this I have mine for not being passive about it. One thing I said weeks ago that I felt would really hurt HoT is if the developers decided to make it so that for most players the Elite Specs weren’t available until 50% into the HoT content. They have done exactly that. 400 hero points available in HoT spread out of 3 maps (~13 hero points per map) assume 200 hero points to unlock enough traits to make a viable elite spec build and most won’t be there until half way though the expansion.

If you just play with a main and you’ve got map explorer done and all the core game hero points of course you don’t see the big deal and we won’t be looking at it the same way. On the positive side at least we have Reverent to look forward to.
.

I always expected elite specializations would take a bit of time to get and even expected people who don’t like PvE (like myself) to have to do quite a bit of PvE to use our specs in PvP (and I would prefer that as opposed to everyone being able to flip-flop with zero investment). With this genre I expect to have to do a bunch of bull-stuff in order to get to the parts I actually want to do. We take the good with the bad. I can’t wrap my brain around why any of you expected anything different. This game has always been this way. At launch PvP players had to grind to 80 for WvW and grind through the cluster-kitten that was 8v8 to get to Arenas.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

ColinJohanson.2394:

PlatinumMember.5274:

Unless I am mistaken just to unlock half of the training line, we need 212 hero points?

Again, hero challenges are worth 10 points each in the jungle. So no you don’t need to go do 200-400 jungle challenges.

But there aren’t any challenges in the first zone, so where will all these challenges be?

The beta did not show us everything in the zone.

Sigmoid.7082:

How many you need depends on the placement on the unlock track. Since you are expecting to need the full 400 to get the final GM trait anything less would be a bonus to you.

You’re righ on this, but this is still a pain in the kitten .
You are assuming that the GM trait aren’t the last unlock, if they are this still as much stupid.

ColinJohanson.2394:

It’s 400 points total to unlock everything in an elite spec training line – I just can’t remember off hand how many points folks have currently if they have done all the existing ones, but it’s right around 200. The rest you’ll need to earn in jungle to unlock the deeper skills/traits/etc. in the training line.

You only need 60 hero points to begin using your elite spec, the points you spend after that continue to unlock more skills, traits, skins, etc.

Again, hero challenges are worth 10 points each in the jungle. So no you don’t need to go do 200-400 jungle challenges.

While I am 100% on board with having to earn, train and unlock our elite specs, I think that 400 hero points is horribly excessive. Especially for WvW only players. (Note: I love PvX and have done world completion 3 times, but play mostly in WvW).

Many WvW purists hate PvE. They hate running around Tyria doing something that does not contribute to the weekly matchup. Which means, they are likely to have NO excess hero points because they have no map completion. So they will need to drum up the 400 points using the new WvW system.

Assuming the Notarized Scrolls of Maguuma Heroics give 10 hero points (which still needs to be confirmed) they would need 40 of these scrolls. At 5 ranks per scroll, that’s 200 ranks in WvW.

(Note: there still remains the unanswered question of being retroactively rewarded proofs in WvW based on current rank — something that Anet should seriously consider since that would be the new WvW hero point system equivalent and having finished world completion!!)

Now, 200 ranks is no small feat. Heck it took me nearly 2 months to go from 1100 to 1320, because I am on a lower tier server, mostly roam with my guild havoc squad and very rarely get in large scale zerg fights or take keeps, which generate the most WxP.

200 ranks will take a heck of a lot longer than finding 40 hero challenges in the jungle. I bet many PvE/PvX players will find their full 20-40 either on launch day or by the end of the 1st weekend.

I highly doubt anyone in this entire game has earned 100 ranks in one weekend of WvW. Even with a birthday booster one. If they have, they spent every waking moment doing it, hard core via EotM or zerg-festing.

And with the new borderlands map being so much bigger and taking longer to get across, we’re possibly looking at earning less WxP than the smaller alpine map has provided, because it takes longer to get somewhere to cap something to earn the WxP.

And what if you’re on a server where your role is to scout and defend? You’re getting even less WxP because defending rewards less than attacking. Which draws the time line out even further.

Then throw in the fact that MANY WvW players hate leveling and will use Tomes to level their Revenants. Meaning that WvW players who want to be a herald on launch day won’t be able to because they’ll have to wait to earn 30 ranks to unlock the elite line, which can easily take a week or more for some players, depending on play styles and amount of play time.

Suddenly WvW players are looking at several weeks to a month just to fully train their elite spec, when PvE purists will have it done in a matter of days. Simply because of their preferences for certain content types.

To make matters worse, if my assumption about scrolls is incorrect — if they give less than 10 hero points — then this timeline is extended even further.

I predict that if this is not remedied immediately, we’ll find WvW players are going to forget about their 1st week’s matchups and storm EotM armed with boosters to karma/rank train just to fully train their elite specs as fast as possible. That is NOT supportive of the new borderlands map or any of the great WvW changes coming. And I doubt this is what Anet is intending.

TL;DR: It takes much more effort and time to get 5 ranks in WvW than it does to find one Maguuma Jungle Hero Challenge. PvX friendly players will have their elite specs fully trained by Sunday. Meanwhile WvW only players will still be working on it for days, if not weeks to come and, will once again, feel pressured to play content they have no interest in, just to get their elite spec. This disparity is way out of balance and horribly unfair.

Thanks for listening!

Sir Black.7423:

ColinJohanson.2394:

You only need 60 hero points to begin using your elite spec, the points you spend after that continue to unlock more skills, traits, skins, etc.
Again, hero challenges are worth 10 points each in the jungle. So no you don’t need to go do 200-400 jungle challenges.

I feel like this deserves either a full news article laying out all the information, or it just should have been left quiet until launch when we’ll be able to see it in game.

I agree a blog post would be nice.

soooo stu ….. , anet failed …. again …….

Do none of the Dev’s actually play WvW on a regular basis ? Why are we having to explain the flaws here ? Are you really that out of touch with one of your major game modes ?

I seriously can’t believe that we need to explain this to the people who run and design this game.

yeah I actually have to play content to unlock stuff I will never use…. /sarcasm

Schurge.5194:

SamTheGuardian.2938:

Schurge.5194:

@SamTheGuardian

You should change your name to “SamTheMasterOfHyperbole.”

what you see as something small I see as a big deal. You have your reasons for being passive on this I have mine for not being passive about it. One thing I said weeks ago that I felt would really hurt HoT is if the developers decided to make it so that for most players the Elite Specs weren’t available until 50% into the HoT content. They have done exactly that. 400 hero points available in HoT spread out of 3 maps (~13 hero points per map) assume 200 hero points to unlock enough traits to make a viable elite spec build and most won’t be there until half way though the expansion.

If you just play with a main and you’ve got map explorer done and all the core game hero points of course you don’t see the big deal and we won’t be looking at it the same way. On the positive side at least we have Reverent to look forward to.
.

I always expected elite specializations would take a bit of time to get and even expected people who don’t like PvE (like myself) to have to do quite a bit of PvE to use our specs in PvP (and I would prefer that as opposed to everyone being able to flip-flop with zero investment). With this genre I expect to have to do a bunch of bull-stuff in order to get to the parts I actually want to do. We take the good with the bad. I can’t wrap my brain around why any of you expected anything different. This game has always been this way. At launch PvP players had to grind to 80 for WvW and grind through the cluster-kitten that was 8v8 to get to Arenas.

You have zero grind in PvP. It’s an aspect of the game that actually respects a players time but allowing you to put all your effort into improving your skill. The reason it’s the fastest growing segment of the game is because PvE has had no end game… Even if all I do is play PvP from now on the $50 invested in HoT will have been worth it.

As for PvE. In game design theory you have balance of what you give to a player for free and what must be worked for. We already have masteries and adventures to grind. You can bet a good number of those 40 hero challenges will be locked away on parts of the map that require masteries. With a game expansion it should feel new from the start. There is plenty in the game to work for besides Elite Specs. They should be free to us for buying the game. In BWE#3. Just for kicks I created a few beta characters on BWE#3 and configured them exactly like my non-betas. Stripped off the elite specs and went to play the HoT maps. How was that experience? Boring as kitten. The Elite Specs add a great deal to the freshness this expansion brings. All this bickering is a bit early the real screams and shots will come Saturday when people realize just how bad this is going to be for the PvE crowd. Again, I see it as a win for those who decided to abandon the PvE side of the game or just leave it for a while to see if things change with the Elite Spec prereq

Random.4691:

Do none of the Dev’s actually play WvW on a regular basis ? Why are we having to explain the flaws here ? Are you really that out of touch with one of your major game modes ?

I seriously can’t believe that we need to explain this to the people who run and design this game.

Their take on WvW from Pacsouth this year-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajDiZkUNpe0

This seems such a poor gamedesign desicion, in the sense that it will make the expansion less fun. I was looking forward to playing the new content with my two mains elite specs. Instead I will have to play through it with specs I already know, and will then have to replay content, with the new specs.

BobbyT.7192:

papry.8096:

BobbyT.7192:

papry.8096:

Shoe.5821:

You get all those hero points just by leveling up. Lol. ‘extend the grind’ harrumph!

400 to unlock all base spe & spell.
400 to unlock elite spec.

That’s very logical. :sarcasm:

Doing the same challenge 40 times in a row to get an elite spec isn’t grind. sure.

The rest of your post is nonsense.

You get the first 400 toming up to 80 anyways.
And 40 challenges is not that much to get.

Multiply that by 6 alts.

7 alts here, soon to be 8, with full map completion on 3 of them, and the rest hovering between 50-75%
Not sympathetic one bit,

I soon have 13 alts 80, 7 with full map completion & 4 with none as they are WvW alts.
6 was the low end of it. So your point was ?

400 Hero Points…
Wow… I have mixed feelings about that. I like the fact that it wont be “easy” to become an elite spec. I hope you realize A-net that i wanna play HoT as a Reaper, not becoming a reaper after I’ve finnished HoT.
There better be plenty of accessible Hero Challanges early on.

FinalPatriot.8034:

So I thought the great selling point with GW2 is that it didn’t “force” you to have to farm such items just to play all the skills of your class. Am I right in saying that’s not the case anymore?

Do you have every skill/trait unlocked at level 1? If the answer is no, then what’s your complain?

I hope they realize that i wanna play HoT as a Reaper, not play HoT to become a Reaper. There better be easily accessible Hero Challanges early on.

Meh,

15 level 80 characters 100% skills | Traits | Specializations + 140 – 218 spare hero points on each.

Complete 20 Adventures & 60 Hero Challenges done! 15 Level 80 characters 100% Skills | Traits | Specializations | Elite Specializations

Lorelei.7809:

To all WvW Players:
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/earning-hero-points-in-world-vs-world/
“The addition of these new items means you can do every hero challenge in the game by exclusively playing WvW if you wish!”
5 WvW ranks, 10 Hero points with Maguuma Scrolls
1 WvW rank, 1 Hero Point with central Tyrian Scrolls

And note:
a)10 points per challenge in Maguuma.
b)There are enough challenges in Maguuma alone to get all Hero Points required.

Yes, it is really nice that was done. I was concerned that the hero challenges in the new jungle would be the only method by which to gain hero points. It reminds me of when Tomes of Knowledge were added to the game and given in the new sPvP reward tracks so that sPvP players who spent the majority of their time outside of PvE had a method for leveling their 2+ year toons.

I’m curious though how much map completion the average PvE player has compared to the average WvW player, or the average sPvP player. My gut feeling says that most average WvW players are going to start at a deficit of hero points compared to average PvE players. I leveled most of my toons through playing WvW. The challenge of being an uplevel in WvW is fun.