Guild Wars 2

You know, I never post on the forums but this expansion issue deserved a post. It’s easy to see where both sides are coming from but the bottom line is it’s unreasonable to ask people with more than one level 80 to do so much grinding just to get what they were promised. Going through content once wouldn’t be a big deal, or
Just wvwing for the HP for one character, but when you have even one alt, it completely takes a whole new sense of impending grind. As was mentioned, guild wars has always been a very casual friendly game and at this point it just plain isn’t anymore. Something needs to be done or else a lot
of people won’t just suck it up and grind out all of their characters specializations, they will just quit. Just make it reasonable, the suggestion for 60 hero points to unlock a specialization fully sounds fantastic. But most of us are open to suggestions, just don’t force is into weeks and months playing a game mode we don’t want to play.

For the record, I don’t consider the content to be especially hard, per se – group-based, sure, but not that “hard”.

What I am severely annoyed with is the hero point grind. Having played all betas, I cannot even imagine what would be so wrong with playing this content with the elite specs. I really put in what is for me a great deal of time this weekend, and while I unlocked the elites for the three classes I care about most at this time – Revenant, Necro, and Engi – I don’t have more than one or two skills unlocked in each, so I am obviously not playing those specs right now – nor will I be, it seems, for quite a bit of time.

I also absolutely cannot imagine doing this for all 10 of my 80’s. The personal story is great, and I like the zones. It’s fun to discover for a while and explore everything, but in an MMO, you’ll know everything sooner rather than later. If I was doing it for one character, I’d be pretty happy right now. Having said that, while the content is cool, the hero point grind to access what should have been a basic feature of the expansion is awful, and definitely was the low point of the launch.

At least as far as I have gotten, which admittedly isn’t all the way yet, the content has been excellent the first time through, cool the second time through, and getting a little “automatic” by the third. You cannot possibly expect people to do that for 6, 8 or 10+ characters.

So it’s a little bittersweet for me. Just because I cannot understand what would have been so horrible about giving us access to our elites straight-off – perhaps a small quest chain or something that would have been an account-wide unlock, then you buy the skills (within reason – 400 to max any single one tree is insane). From what I have seen and experienced, they in no way, shape or form would have imbalanced the game – was it not balance that was discussed during the BWE’s? Honestly, every other MMO I’ve played introduced new classes this way. This is because it energizes people to buy expansion packs (see the gold standard thus far for this sort of thing IMO – WotLK Death Knight in WoW) and has the effect of freshening the game for multi-year players.

I think you’ve gone a step better than anyone else to date with the elites – this freshens every single class. Remarkable idea, really. But it’s at least somewhat ruined by the exorbitant “cost” of entry into this for a game that always said it valued game play and not grinds. I’ll be done with the new content before I even get to experience any of the builds I came up with in BWE, and quite frankly, nobody is unreasonable to have expected to be able to do the new content with the new elites. I’m happy enough to grind out my Masteries, story line, raid progression, etc.. I likely never will get them all now as I’d once planned doing. And it was so simple to deliver – I, like many, would have been much happier doing it across my whole toon army with the new abilities promised. And until someone explains to me how giving us this at launch with a simple unlock quest/proceedure/etc. would have broken the entire game somehow, and invalidated all the work that went into the zones, stories, and a million other things, I expect I shall continue to have somewhat of a bitter aftertaste to the whole thing.

But for the handling of the Elites, this would have been a nearly perfect expansion launch. So easy to get right, and yet it seems, so hard as well.

I do hope people from ANet read this. I’m not religious about this game, nor am I what you’d call casual. I’ve been playing video games of all shapes and sizes for the better part of 35 years now. I’ve seen it done right, and I have seen it done wrong. It’s difficult to believe the devs could have so badly miscalculated what shall now forever be known as the “Hero Point Effect”, but it seems that’s just what’s happened. It exists presently as a serious blight on an otherwise fantastic MMO expansion.

I just wanted to add my voice to this. I was hesitant about HoT because I wasn’t entirely sure what I was getting. Long story short, I’ve been positively blown away by it. It’s absolutely fantastic and has got me actually really enjoying the PvE again. Something I haven’t since a few months after launch. I used to hide mainly in WvW and sPvP, but this is just tremendous fun. And it looks stunning.

My one and only substantial criticism at this point is what seems to be a very common one: 400 hero points for my elite specs on every single character? Really? It is extremely excessive, and it tarnishes an otherwise excellent expansion so far. I love everything about it, except for the specialization cost. It’s absurd.

For now, I’m scheduling group hero point-getting rallies with my guild to pound these out. Stupid problems require stupid solutions. Throw bodies at it!

psizone.8437:

I think that’s a little extreme to do before the devs have replied with their plans on whether they’ll change things or not, especially 3 days after the expansions release. The devs need a little time to discuss things and do some tweaking after looking at the feedback in the forums.

You know, I’d actually agree with you… if this was the first time they’ve done something like this. But it’s not, is it?

They keep doing this, and never learn. Yes, they might change things “soon”. But they might not. It doesn’t matter, though. They charged ahead, even with their past history of messing up the game.

While I do intend to wait and see what the reaction is, I feel those putting bad scores to the expansion already are entirely justified.

Palador.2170:

While I do intend to wait and see what the reaction is, I feel those putting bad scores to the expansion already are entirely justified.

Absolutely.

The product has been shipped. Customers have paid for it. Reviews, positive or negative, are justified.

After two days of playing much more HoT than I initially intended I can take back my initial disappointment.

I started in this thread advocating for ANet saying that there’s nothing wrong with their design, even though it’s not the one I would have preferred. After getting into HoT on Friday to see the exact design they went with I became disheartened. I did not expect to have so little control about how I leveled through the new content. I was especially upset because of where it put my Revenant who had no chance to build points before release.

It’s been two days now and from just playing the content, and doing some of the story, as well as the prologue on something to the effect of five or six characters, I’ve unlocked teir 1 jumping, teir 2 gliding, and I’m working on exalted language. With just these three teirs I have full access to the maps on all my characters. I know where all of the points in the first map are and can easily get or skip them as I please. So far I’ve only skipped two because they’re too hard to solo. I look forward to finding an expedition to deal with them eventually, or not.

I don’t have a problem with the design. I’m playing a Scrapper, a Daredevil, a Berzerker and a Dragonhunter and they’re perfectly sufficient as is. I’m holding back on Herald for now, but I’ll get around to it.

Kal Spiro.9745:

After two days of playing much more HoT than I initially intended I can take back my initial disappointment.

I started in this thread advocating for ANet saying that there’s nothing wrong with their design, even though it’s not the one I would have preferred. After getting into HoT on Friday to see the exact design they went with I became disheartened. I did not expect to have so little control about how I leveled through the new content. I was especially upset because of where it put my Revenant who had no chance to build points before release.

It’s been two days now and from just playing the content, and doing some of the story, as well as the prologue on something to the effect of five or six characters, I’ve unlocked teir 1 jumping, teir 2 gliding, and I’m working on exalted language. With just these three teirs I have full access to the maps on all my characters. I know where all of the points in the first map are and can easily get or skip them as I please. So far I’ve only skipped two because they’re too hard to solo. I look forward to finding an expedition to deal with them eventually, or not.

I don’t have a problem with the design. I’m playing a Scrapper, a Daredevil, a Berzerker and a Dragonhunter and they’re perfectly sufficient as is. I’m holding back on Herald for now, but I’ll get around to it.

You’ve already unlocked 4 full elite specs since the game released 65 hrs ago? Don’t know what to say to that except proof plz.

Kal Spiro.9745:

After two days of playing much more HoT than I initially intended I can take back my initial disappointment.

I started in this thread advocating for ANet saying that there’s nothing wrong with their design, even though it’s not the one I would have preferred. After getting into HoT on Friday to see the exact design they went with I became disheartened. I did not expect to have so little control about how I leveled through the new content. I was especially upset because of where it put my Revenant who had no chance to build points before release.

It’s been two days now and from just playing the content, and doing some of the story, as well as the prologue on something to the effect of five or six characters, I’ve unlocked teir 1 jumping, teir 2 gliding, and I’m working on exalted language. With just these three teirs I have full access to the maps on all my characters. I know where all of the points in the first map are and can easily get or skip them as I please. So far I’ve only skipped two because they’re too hard to solo. I look forward to finding an expedition to deal with them eventually, or not.

I don’t have a problem with the design. I’m playing a Scrapper, a Daredevil, a Berzerker and a Dragonhunter and they’re perfectly sufficient as is. I’m holding back on Herald for now, but I’ll get around to it.

There are at least 3 points in Verdant Blink -maybe more, not sure- that u need certain masteries to get, and u don’t have them yet.

Elite Specs is pretty much the very much hated NPE all over again. Unlock traits by doing events. Eventually, map will die, and no one will do the events, and then you’ll be SOL, except this time, there’s no grinding for money and then buying the traits from a vendor, you’ll have to go to EOTM or something like that to get your Hero Points. I though the BWE would have been a good indicator of what we were getting, but I have sever buyers remorse.

I can’t imagine many people will even bother grinding out all the HP to max the new weapon set.
It just doesn’t seem worth the grind.

It’s not required, it’s not like an ultima weapon that blows all the other weapon sets out of the water, it required learning new moves and skills, and they want us to grind a ton of hp to unlock it?

I mean part of me things, 4-6 months down the road, they will nerf how much you need hard, but right now, even on one toon let alone any amount of alts, it’s too much for many.

Maybe that’s why they call it an “elite” specialization. Only the most dedicated can get it, even if it’s not really worth it. lol

leftyboy.9358:

Kal Spiro.9745:

After two days of playing much more HoT than I initially intended I can take back my initial disappointment.

I started in this thread advocating for ANet saying that there’s nothing wrong with their design, even though it’s not the one I would have preferred. After getting into HoT on Friday to see the exact design they went with I became disheartened. I did not expect to have so little control about how I leveled through the new content. I was especially upset because of where it put my Revenant who had no chance to build points before release.

It’s been two days now and from just playing the content, and doing some of the story, as well as the prologue on something to the effect of five or six characters, I’ve unlocked teir 1 jumping, teir 2 gliding, and I’m working on exalted language. With just these three teirs I have full access to the maps on all my characters. I know where all of the points in the first map are and can easily get or skip them as I please. So far I’ve only skipped two because they’re too hard to solo. I look forward to finding an expedition to deal with them eventually, or not.

I don’t have a problem with the design. I’m playing a Scrapper, a Daredevil, a Berzerker and a Dragonhunter and they’re perfectly sufficient as is. I’m holding back on Herald for now, but I’ll get around to it.

You’ve already unlocked 4 full elite specs since the game released 65 hrs ago? Don’t know what to say to that except proof plz.

If you have map completion on the characters, you have 200 or so hero points to begin with. That’s plenty to at least unlock most of the specialization. Probably about half. I had map completion on my mesmer and I was able to fairly easily get 80% done with tier 1 or 2 of the masteries. It’s not unreasonable that he could have. Still a lot of work for those of us without map completion on the rest of our characters

I can’t believe so many people feel this is a “grind”. Seriously. Why do you people play this game if you don’t like the content. The events have been so insanely fun to me but all I hear is how getting XP (doing event) is a “grind”. How exploring for mastery points, vistas, and some of the hero challenges is a “grind”. How doing hero challenges with bosses with actual mechanics is a “grind”. You people don’t know what a GRIND is.

This kitten is fun. This is what GW2 was leading up to. If you’re not having fun exploring, if you’re not having fun doing events, and if you’re not having fighting bosses with people, then how did you ever get through 1-80? How do you play this game at all? HoT isn’t some crazy surprise. It’s GW2 2.0. It’s all the things they’ve been building on finally coming together into something ENGAGING. If your’e bored playing HoT, lowering the amount of effort required to progress isn’t going to change that.

EDIT: The most valid arguments are about WvW. I’m getting really annoyed about people complaining about it in PvE though since it’s everything that defines this game’s PvE, but ramped up (which is awesome). WvW-wise, I’m sure Anet doesn’t want to mis-balance it as to not have people flood WvW just to get their elite spec because they made it faster.

The hero point/elite specs thing is my biggest complaint. Getting elite specs unlocked on my alts will be a huge pain. If they had created some kind of collection/quest chain to unlock them… that could have been interesting. I was really excited about trying all the new elites, but now feel like i’ll only focus on SPvP, since I can enjoy them without the really long grinds.

BeardRex.6739:

I can’t believe so many people feel this is a “grind”. Seriously. Why do you people play this game if you don’t like the content.

Some people want elite specs to play in different content. They perhaps like the core game content or WvW and bought the expansion specifically for the elite specs to add some spice to content they do enjoy and want to play.

Hello , well there have been hundreds of posts with people being disappointed about the new Expansion for various reasons and i would just like to leave my vote on this thread , the vote of disappointment.

I don’t even believe that they will ever fix it , patch it yes. But fix it completely ? Doubt it.

And it’s quite sad actually because the Expansion has some really good elements , but horribly misused and gated.

Acetone.4793:

Since when does GW2 require players to grind for hours just to be able to access a new way to play? I thought it was all about options – with gold, skins, achievements, legendary gear being the long term goal. Not the base mechanics themselves. It’s comparable to grinding a whole new profession. Elite specs are essentially new professions, I don’t know why people allowed themselves to be tricked into thinking otherwise.

You do have options.
What do you have in a typical MMO expansion? increased level cap, and a linear series of maps, usually containing a fairly linear series of quest hubs, which you have to level through in order to get your so called “base mechanics”.
My warrior in WoW didn’t get heroic leap as soon as cata went live, I had to play for several hours before I got it. He didn’t have access to most of the dungeons or any of the raids, had to level up or be at cap for those. Standard fair.

What do you have in HoT on the other hand? right off the bat, you can play in any of the new maps. Travel might be rough without your initial masteries, but is reasonably possible. Plus the first tier masteries for each line are both the most important, and the fastest to get. Most of the inconveniences and gates related to masteries will be overcome in a few hours of gameplay (provided you’re actually being productive). Not “comparable to grinding a whole new profession”, just a few hours.
What about the masteries themselves? well you have the option to pursue which ever track you like, and can switch freely between the tracks. Think gliding is wicked awesome? focus on that. Interested in the Exalted daily challenge? go for it.
Want more options? Well you can log on to any of your characters, because unlike traditional level cap increases, masteries are account bound. You can pick up where you left off and keep on progressing your masteries on any character.

With regards to elite specs, if you really want to compare them to being classes themselves, then you’ll have to stick to your argument and be consistent. Classes require you to level them, you don’t get everything upfront. Not in other games. Not in GW2. There’s no argument to be had about “but base mechanics!”, you level up by participating in content to progress and unlock your abilities and traits, and other game features/access to content.
Unlocking(the initial) elite spec is fairly trivial/quick, and beyond that you’ll have to progress them by participating in content just like you would in any other class-like system.

Nobody is being tricked, you’re just misrepresenting the situation. It seems like you view it as grindy/lacking options because you’re comparing it to this unreasonable expectation that you should just be handed everything upon logging in.

54 pages, and still no response LOL…..Anet get it together and change this

I paid $100 to play new specs through new zones. Give me my elites to play and I’ll shut up along with everyone else who’s kittened over this. It’s really quite simple.

We need an official response, group hero point challenges is going too far. this is something that should have been tested in the beta weekends, but of course w never got the chance to try it out. Character progression like this should not be gated by group content. Masteries can be accomplished solo, albeit at a much slower pace than dealing with group content, so hero points should be the same.

Instead not only do these hero challenges require groups to beat, but they also have a timer on them. this needs to change ASAP and we need a developer response about the situation as well. Loving the expansion, but this tiring grind fest to get access to new character progression is way too much.

Personally, I am enjoying the hell out of the expansion. LOVE IT! I am also okay with how the points and all that work out.

That said, if you decide to listen to the many who do not like the ‘grind’, and you decide to make it easier, however that works, please consider the following:

-If you make it easier, then please make that easier path optional.
-For those who enjoy doing it the way it currently is, please create an achievement for it, for one character. Then, those who want to get stuff done fast so they can do whatever other stuff they want to do, can do just that. And those who want achievements, but have a bazillion alts, can do the achievement on a main or something, and do things quickly on their alts.
-And those of us in no hurry, cruising along enjoying the scenery and the current journey, they can do the intended path and enjoy playing the content the way we feel.
-This solves all issues and will not impact much or take a super amount of dev time.
*******************************************************

That is my suggestion. But, again, I’m having a blast, and personally have no need for change. This is just put out there for those who are super bothered by the ‘grind’ for whatever the reason.

Thanks.

I really hope we get some kind of response to this tomorrow.

Bordak.6519:

-If you make it easier, then please make that easier path optional.
-For those who enjoy doing it the way it currently is, please create an achievement for it.

I like this, someone who is content with it as is, and is still willing to offer an idea for a compromise, finally some common sense solutions from the other side of the debate.

I am gonna just add my 2 cents as well. I was pretty burnt out on the original gw2 release after having spent days and days and days in the SW. So I took a break thinking I would come back for the elite specializations. Now I wish I had never pre-ordered. (Dumb on my part I know) Never again though.

They buggered us with adding in Ascended gear when they said they wouldn’t and we took it, they buggered us with re-adding in the trinity and we are taking it – as well as adding yet ANOTHER tier of armor which they said they wouldn’t do, they buggered us and lied to us in numerous ways… but putting a gate on content like this? fraid that’s too much for me. I may be stuck with HoT, but kitten ed if i ever buy another GW expansion before the reviews come out.

Bordak.6519:

Personally, I am enjoying the hell out of the expansion. LOVE IT! I am also okay with how the points and all that work out.

That said, if you decide to listen to the many who do not like the ‘grind’, and you decide to make it easier, however that works, please consider the following:

---

-If you make it easier, then please make that easier path optional.
-For those who enjoy doing it the way it currently is, please create an achievement for it, for one character. Then, those who want to get stuff done fast so they can do whatever other stuff they want to do, can do just that. And those who want achievements, but have a bazillion alts, can do the achievement on a main or something, and do things quickly on their alts.
-And those of us in no hurry, cruising along enjoying the scenery and the current journey, they can do the intended path and enjoy playing the content the way we feel.
-This solves all issues and will not impact much or take a super amount of dev time.
*******************************************************

That is my suggestion. But, again, I’m having a blast, and personally have no need for change. This is just put out there for those who are super bothered by the ‘grind’ for whatever the reason.

Thanks.

Brilliant suggestion. A win win for everyone. Turn hero point elite unlock into an achievement for anyone who want’s to keep it that way and perhaps have an option available during the intro sequence in the jungle that’s a kind of choose your own adventure from an npc, which allows anyone who isn’t going for an account wide achieve to simply skip it and get elite unlock on that toon immediately.

Man the amount of effort the devs put in for you guys and you just stomp it in the drain with posting 1/10 reviews to force there hand….. They are most likely discussing it….. i actually cant believe how toxic these posters are….

Dallyoop.6037:

I am gonna just add my 2 cents as well. I was pretty burnt out on the original gw2 release after having spent days and days and days in the SW. So I took a break thinking I would come back for the elite specializations. Now I wish I had never pre-ordered. (Dumb on my part I know) Never again though.

They buggered us with adding in Ascended gear when they said they wouldn’t and we took it, they buggered us with re-adding in the trinity and we are taking it – as well as adding yet ANOTHER tier of armor which they said they wouldn’t do, they buggered us and lied to us in numerous ways… but putting a gate on content like this? fraid that’s too much for me. I may be stuck with HoT, but kitten ed if i ever buy another GW expansion before the reviews come out.

That other tier of armor, has no stat bonuses over ascended, so its just for appearances from what i know. Much like legendary weapons. So no different at all. Trinity from what i can tell? its always been here, its just different..wait no it isnt, damage support and control…I havent needed a healer through out any of the HOT content so far.

BlackBunny.3681:

Man the amount of effort the devs put in for you guys and you just stomp it in the drain with posting 1/10 reviews to force there hand….. They are most likely discussing it….. i actually cant believe how toxic these posters are….

I think the general consensus is that the game has the potential to be great. The expansion is amazing. Nobody is questioning that, I think. Nobody is even complaining about the new map. The complaint is that you have to grind to even get a chance to play the elite specialization. That’s no fun. Maybe make us grind to complete the entire specialization track, but until you completely unlock a track, sometimes you’re not viable anywhere other than pve. I can’t go and wvw with a half-unlocked trait track. I can’t justify that, so I’m stuck not enjoying the new content or I’m forced to pve for it over the next weeks. That’s enjoyable to nobody.

Arewn.2368:

What do you have in a typical MMO expansion? increased level cap, and a linear series of maps, usually containing a fairly linear series of quest hubs, which you have to level through in order to get your so called “base mechanics”.
My warrior in WoW didn’t get heroic leap as soon as cata went live, I had to play for several hours before I got it. He didn’t have access to most of the dungeons or any of the raids, had to level up or be at cap for those. Standard fair.

Comparing a single quality of life skill to the elite specs is hardly a fair comparison, it’s not a major playstyle change like several of them are. Berserker, tempest and daredevil seem to be the only ones that don’t completely shift the focus of the base profession.

A better comparison would be if you had to reach the new level cap as a paladin in order to unlock marksmanship hunter. (Guardian to dragonhunter)

We should be able to unlock the archer spec as an archer class, melee spec as a melee class, etc.

Praise the lord they are looking into a solution, thanks Colin!

hurrado.2346:

Praise the lord they are looking into a solution, thanks Colin!

Um, that’s NOT AT ALL what he just said.

I don’t think elite specs should be attached to hero points. Personally I think hero points are great challenges and should stay in the game but I don’t want it attached to elite spec forcing me to play through the majority of the content before I’m even able to use it. I wanted to be able to start playing HoT with my herald revenant. I just don’t enjoy it without that spec. It’s like if I wanted to play an elementalist but you took away my range options and forced me to melee. It just doesn’t feel right.

ColinJohanson.2394:

Hey folks,

Lots of passionate feedback and discussion in here on either side, and a friendly reminder that constructive feedback helps us make better games (please do keep it constructive!) We don’t always get every detail perfect the first time, but I like to think one of our strengths is we’re always open to and listening to feedback from our community and making good decisions based on that feedback.

Ultimately, we’re thrilled with the parts of HoT everyone is enjoying. Your passion is awesome, and it’s part of why we all love creating this game. In particular, in game we’ve seen a really positive reaction to the game from folks who are busy playing, which has been really cool to see.

While we never like to rush and make snap decisions, in particular with a game that’s basically been out less than three days; I think there are some fair points in here for us to discuss. Much like other feedback about HoT, we’ll be discussing this as well!

Thanks again!

Thank you!!

ColinJohanson.2394:

Hey folks,

Lots of passionate feedback and discussion in here on either side, and a friendly reminder that constructive feedback helps us make better games (please do keep it constructive!) We don’t always get every detail perfect the first time, but I like to think one of our strengths is we’re always open to and listening to feedback from our community and making good decisions based on that feedback.

Ultimately, we’re thrilled with the parts of HoT everyone is enjoying. Your passion is awesome, and it’s part of why we all love creating this game. In particular, in game we’ve seen a really positive reaction to the game from folks who are busy playing, which has been really cool to see.

While we never like to rush and make snap decisions, in particular with a game that’s basically been out less than three days; I think there are some fair points in here for us to discuss. Much like other feedback about HoT, we’ll be discussing this as well!

Thanks again!

“In particular, in game we’ve seen a really positive reaction to the game from folks who are busy playing, which has been really cool to see”. Hint Hint I guess.

To reitarate – and I am going to beat this dead horse until it is alive again – you gated basic game mechanics. Plain and simple. People can call elite specs “character progression” as much as they want but that doesn’t magically turn them into that. Elite specs are new classes.

Nike.2631:

hurrado.2346:

Praise the lord they are looking into a solution, thanks Colin!

Um, that’s NOT AT ALL what he just said.

Agreed. Pretty sure it was more along the lines of: ‘We are happy with the game’s reception despite this thread, we’ll talk about this (as in, future tense) with no more or less urgency than any of the other feedback we’ve gotten so far, and 3 days in is too soon to tell you anything one way or another.’

Which is, imho, not the post he should’ve made. Side-stepping issues that are clearly issues just makes people more frustrated.

That said, I do believe they will make a change. The question is, will it be enough of a change that makes us happy, and will we still be playing by the time they do?

To semi-quote Judge Judy one more time “Anet, don’t pee on our leg and tell us it’s raining”. Elite specs are NOT character progression. In fact, if you try to equip the elite without the full trait line you are actually getting worse. With the elite fully traited you break even with your former profession. How is that progress? All the elites do is give you an alternate playstyle… Elite traits and utilities should cost the same as normal traits and utilities and be bought the same way with separate upgrade wheels not one big monstrous upgrade wheel cluttered with skins.

ColinJohanson.2394:

In particular, in game we’ve seen a really positive reaction to the game from folks who are busy playing, which has been really cool to see.

I bet Square Enix responded in same way to criticism about their first iteration of Final Fantasy XIV. You know, the one before Realm Reborn. I’m sure there were people in love with that game as well.

But I’m sure people are “busy playing”. Very busy in fact. Grinding their precious life away to gain access to even the most basic features.

If I sound salty, it’s because I am. You can ignore me.
<3

aBabyInMoonBoots.9635:

Nike.2631:

hurrado.2346:

Praise the lord they are looking into a solution, thanks Colin!

Um, that’s NOT AT ALL what he just said.

Agreed. Pretty sure it was more along the lines of: ‘We are happy with the game’s reception despite this thread, we’ll talk about this (as in, future tense) with no more or less urgency than any of the other feedback we’ve gotten so far, and 3 days in is too soon to tell you anything one way or another.’

Which is, imho, not the post he should’ve made. Side-stepping issues that are clearly issues just makes people more frustrated.

That said, I do believe they will make a change. The question is, will it be enough of a change that makes us happy, and will we still be playing by the time they do?

You may be right, I jumped the gun a bit, I don’t see much of a positive reaction in game among people I play with about the HP issue, so dunno where they got that from. Hopefully they don’t discount the problem completely.

Hell, I played EQ and FFXI – I can talk grind all day.

Some may not feel this new system is a grind. Many do. Ultimately it’s up to ANet as to what sort of game they wish.

In any case, after all the volumes written – I still have yet to hear anyone discuss how having Elites upon release would destroy the game. Opinions on that are yours, truly, and we’re all allowed them, of course.. They may differ from mine. As I stated previously – I am waiting for someone to show how giving us the Elites mainly right-off would have caused so many problems that it would ruin the xpac/game.

Maelstrazza.6750:

Hell, I played EQ and FFXI – I can talk grind all day.

Some may not feel this new system is a grind. Many do. Ultimately it’s up to ANet as to what sort of game they wish.

In any case, after all the volumes written – I still have yet to hear anyone discuss how having Elites upon release would destroy the game. Opinions on that are yours, truly, and we’re all allowed them, of course.. They may differ from mine. As I stated previously – I am waiting for someone to show how giving us the Elites mainly right-off would have caused so many problems that it would ruin the xpac/game.

I have a feeling it will be something along the lines of these answers:
“Bla bla bla no endgame, bla bla”
“You got to work hard to earn things in a game! This is ’Merica!”
“Well progression, dummie, don’t you love playing for hours and hours on end on all your characters to play a spec that isn’t any better than any of the prior traitlines?”
“If I can do it, you can do it!”
“It’s not really that bad if you just farm for 24 hours straight, I did it, so why can’t you?”
“It’s like leveling up, only with a suboptimal build that is essentially useless in any group content as you don’t have all the traits etc…”

ColinJohanson.2394:

Hey folks,

Lots of passionate feedback and discussion in here on either side, and a friendly reminder that constructive feedback helps us make better games (please do keep it constructive!) We don’t always get every detail perfect the first time, but I like to think one of our strengths is we’re always open to and listening to feedback from our community and making good decisions based on that feedback.

Ultimately, we’re thrilled with the parts of HoT everyone is enjoying. Your passion is awesome, and it’s part of why we all love creating this game. In particular, in game we’ve seen a really positive reaction to the game from folks who are busy playing, which has been really cool to see.

While we never like to rush and make snap decisions, in particular with a game that’s basically been out less than three days; I think there are some fair points in here for us to discuss. Much like other feedback about HoT, we’ll be discussing this as well!

Thanks again!

Most of the arguments and justification for feedback have been stated so many times already that it’s pretty much just boiled down to a list of “sign me up for the complaint list” rather than bringing new discussion. People are clearly flustered because pretty much all of their time, effort, and anticipation has been nullified.

I think it goes without saying that this isn’t something that needs to be looked into so much as it is something that needs to be changed altogether. Clearly there’s a massive upset, so acknowledging the need for change and expressing something will be done is much more important for damage control in the short term while a solution is devised.

While I mean no disrespect, I strongly advise resolving this issue ASAP as it seems (based on forum threads, reddit, personal experience in-game, etc.) that this is a tipping point for the game very much downwards if nothing is done quickly as to keep players around, bolster short-term sales, and perhaps start re-gaining some consumer trust. Whether or not I can speak for other people here, I don’t know, but I’m definitely holding back on any subsequent purchases from ArenaNet despite literally having planned to have charged gems a few days after the expansion prior to the expansion’s release. It’s also raising huge concerns over the legitimacy and accuracy of what is stated by your company vs. reality based on the massive difference between the content we were marketed and what is now available in-game.

I do commend your staff for a seamless release. Only thing to go down was the wiki for a short period :p

I’d suggest making the elite specs still require hero points, but only 60 or maybe even 100, just for the skills and traits. The cosmetics should be locked away which is fine, because they’re cosmetic. Cutting the HP cost also lets you develop more elite specs during the period of HOT’s release without needing to add more hero point locations, add a new currency, or inflate them again or add new content to allow for expansion into the future. This way, unlocking all of them requires a bit more completion, but accessing only a few is quite reasonable and acceptable for those not interested. Recall this system is a framework; best to keep it as consistent and sustainable as possible, no?

I understand the communication policy is to keep it close and not say much, but I think this is a situation where you’re gonna have to bust out the stops. I say this as someone also worked in the MMO industry, and I wish I had done so much better when I had the chances to.

Oh on a side note, it might also be wise to tone down some of the champion hero challenges to be a bit more solo-able. The champions are still super easy to blob down, anyways, but are nigh impossible for solo players as the baseline stats are just too high.

Maelstrazza.6750:

Hell, I played EQ and FFXI – I can talk grind all day.

Some may not feel this new system is a grind. Many do. Ultimately it’s up to ANet as to what sort of game they wish.

In any case, after all the volumes written – I still have yet to hear anyone discuss how having Elites upon release would destroy the game. Opinions on that are yours, truly, and we’re all allowed them, of course.. They may differ from mine. As I stated previously – I am waiting for someone to show how giving us the Elites mainly right-off would have caused so many problems that it would ruin the xpac/game.

I do kind of agree. Make them cost 200 instead of 400 and halve the value of the hero challenges in maguuma. So you can either unlock the spec through map completion of the old content or the new content.

Eponet.4829:

Comparing a single quality of life skill to the elite specs is hardly a fair comparison, it’s not a major playstyle change like several of them are. Berserker, tempest and daredevil seem to be the only ones that don’t completely shift the focus of the base profession.

A better comparison would be if you had to reach the new level cap as a paladin in order to unlock marksmanship hunter. (Guardian to dragonhunter)

We should be able to unlock the archer spec as an archer class, melee spec as a melee class, etc.

I mentioned heroic leap as a specific example, but they added several skills. Usually significantly changing each spec’s rotation in the process, with the new skills being necessary to it functioning, or an important cooldown. You’re essentially incomplete or broken as a class until you reach the new level cap. Or at least that’s how it was in the TBC→ WotLK and WotLK→Cata transition (after which I stopped playing). Similar can be said for FF14 ARR→HW, and many other MMOs.

And that’s a complete nonsense comparison lol
But if you want to play that game: Level as a ret pally and then switch to Holy or protection when you reach cap. Bam, same kitten thing. Some specs can level more efficiently then others, and it’s common to play those while leveling, even if it’s not what you plan to play at endgame.

At any rate, that’s for the most part a cherry-picked non-essential point to my argument.

ColinJohanson.2394:

In particular, in game we’ve seen a really positive reaction to the game from folks who are busy playing, which has been really cool to see.

To be fair, I passed by someone with the ANet guild tag in HoT today, and I was really tempted to say something to them. After all, if they’re repping that guild, they want it to be known that they’re part of ANet, right?

But the game is for playing, and the forums are for discussions and opinions. So, I did the polite thing and kept my mouth shut as I moved on.

It doesn’t mean I’m happy, it just means I’m polite.

ColinJohanson.2394:

Hey folks,

Lots of passionate feedback and discussion in here on either side, and a friendly reminder that constructive feedback helps us make better games (please do keep it constructive!) We don’t always get every detail perfect the first time, but I like to think one of our strengths is we’re always open to and listening to feedback from our community and making good decisions based on that feedback.

Ultimately, we’re thrilled with the parts of HoT everyone is enjoying. Your passion is awesome, and it’s part of why we all love creating this game. In particular, in game we’ve seen a really positive reaction to the game from folks who are busy playing, which has been really cool to see.

While we never like to rush and make snap decisions, in particular with a game that’s basically been out less than three days; I think there are some fair points in here for us to discuss. Much like other feedback about HoT, we’ll be discussing this as well!

Thanks again!

Completely reasonable to be cautious with such an enormous project.

Something to keep in mind: I’m pretty confident that if there was a way to put the posts in this thread in an algorithm and look for commonalities, you would find that most of the people in here are on roughly the same page.

Thanks for taking the time to say something. Get lots of rest, cause you probably need it. Eat some Adrenal Mushrooms to refresh your mind. Something like that.

ColinJohanson.2394:

Hey folks,

Lots of passionate feedback and discussion in here on either side, and a friendly reminder that constructive feedback helps us make better games (please do keep it constructive!) We don’t always get every detail perfect the first time, but I like to think one of our strengths is we’re always open to and listening to feedback from our community and making good decisions based on that feedback.

Ultimately, we’re thrilled with the parts of HoT everyone is enjoying. Your passion is awesome, and it’s part of why we all love creating this game. In particular, in game we’ve seen a really positive reaction to the game from folks who are busy playing, which has been really cool to see.

While we never like to rush and make snap decisions, in particular with a game that’s basically been out less than three days; I think there are some fair points in here for us to discuss. Much like other feedback about HoT, we’ll be discussing this as well!

Thanks again!

So, how long should we expect to wait before you guys create something more reasonable? Three months? Six? Fallout 3 is releasing next month, and I’m sure the November releases can keep me occupied until you guys figure out how to not lie to us.

Kal Spiro.9745:

Maelstrazza.6750:

Hell, I played EQ and FFXI – I can talk grind all day.

Some may not feel this new system is a grind. Many do. Ultimately it’s up to ANet as to what sort of game they wish.

In any case, after all the volumes written – I still have yet to hear anyone discuss how having Elites upon release would destroy the game. Opinions on that are yours, truly, and we’re all allowed them, of course.. They may differ from mine. As I stated previously – I am waiting for someone to show how giving us the Elites mainly right-off would have caused so many problems that it would ruin the xpac/game.

I do kind of agree. Make them cost 200 instead of 400 and halve the value of the hero challenges in maguuma. So you can either unlock the spec through map completion of the old content or the new content.

If they are to reduce it, might as well keep it lower. You need like 40% map completion’s worth of challenges and PS finished to have around 80 of them. I don’t see a reason why they can’t be 100 or less even with the current 10 pt. values as to allow for future development room and keeping Tyria still relevant in the grand scheme of things while not making anyone feel that the grind is too huge. Skins can be extra at the end for completing maguuma’s challenges via achievements. I get that people want to be rewarded, but the people who do so typically either want the experience or the looks to show it. Increasing accessibility doesn’t diminish the value of completing the content, and making the skins achievements still requires the work to look the part. I don’t think anyone has complained they want the skins for free or care if they weren’t freebies (like legendaries). It’s just the specializations themselves.

ColinJohanson.2394:

Hey folks,

Lots of passionate feedback and discussion in here on either side, and a friendly reminder that constructive feedback helps us make better games (please do keep it constructive!) We don’t always get every detail perfect the first time, but I like to think one of our strengths is we’re always open to and listening to feedback from our community and making good decisions based on that feedback.

Ultimately, we’re thrilled with the parts of HoT everyone is enjoying. Your passion is awesome, and it’s part of why we all love creating this game. In particular, in game we’ve seen a really positive reaction to the game from folks who are busy playing, which has been really cool to see.

While we never like to rush and make snap decisions, in particular with a game that’s basically been out less than three days; I think there are some fair points in here for us to discuss. Much like other feedback about HoT, we’ll be discussing this as well!

Thanks again!

Thanks for making such a great expansion. I’m having a blast in PvE.

I think the main thing you guys should look into is WvW HP gain.

As for PvE, I’d give it time to settle. And if you make changes, please please do it slowly. There’s usually no going back when it comes to making things easier.