Guild Wars 2

The very concept of Elite Speciaizations was a terrible idea from the very start. First off the very name denotes that they are better than other specializations. The method of aquiring them requires you to unlock all traits in every other specialization, which reinforces the “better tham other specs” stigma. The player base at large insists on everyone using Elite Specs… This is NOT ok.

Specializations are meant to allow the player to refine their playstyle. Your choice of specs and traits were defined by how you played your character and improved on your playstyle. Elite specializations, on the otherhand, define your playstyle. You have very little if any choice in how to play you character once you build into an elite spec. They have heavy reliance on specific skills, manipulte how your class mechanics work, and create a built in focus on specific equipment types.

New class weapons are locked behind slotting Elite Specs. For some classes this is only a minor annoyance but not a big deal a the new weapon isn’t really that useful. But, for others this can range from a major annoyance to a complete henderance. It’s fine to lock the new weapons behind the Expansion purchase, but they should be available from that point forward, no extra hoops.

Elite specializations alter/add class mechanics. For some classes these new mechanics enhance pre-existingplay styles, for others they hard lock players into certain play styles that are counterintuitive to how the class plays without it. In many cases these new mechanics are so overly desirable that it’s seen as a henderance to the class to not have, in some cases they actually FIX things that were broken with the class before. This fact has resulted in many members of the comunity looking at future elite specs as a way to fix issues with each class… THIS SHOULD NOT BE THE CASE! Elite specs should NEVER be a solution to a problem with the base class, if something is broken or woefully underpowered or otherwise inadequate, it should be fixed directly.

New skill types locked behin elite specs, similar to the issue with weapons. These new skills add options that shouldn’t neccsarily require the elite spec to benefit from. Specs should be a choice, not a requirement. There are many cases where a build may use a specific weapon and/or skill type as part of the build but doesn’t use the spec that specifically enhances that weapon or skill. Often, such builds use those weapons or skills for situational or utilitary purposes where the base effect is more than sufficent and the specs are geared towards the rest of the build. For example, if the most efficent form of Condition Removal for you class was from a specific skill type that your build doesn’t make use of, you might still slot that skill for its utility and have no need to spec for that skill type. The same can be said about some elite spec skills, they provide utilitary function that is desirable for some builds, but the spec shouldn’t be a necessity for them.

All of that adds up into a giant issue of “Elite Specialiations ARE better than other Speciaizations.” Why is this a problem? Simple, it creates a stigma that if you arnt using an Elite Spec ten your worthless or holding everyone back. This becomes more of an issue when you look back at my first point, the very concept makes them out to be better, and the method of acquiring requires them to be better. All specs should be balanced against eachother, no singular spec should ever be objectionally better than the rest. And yet, they released a type of spec that inherantly must be better or why bother jumping through the hoops required to get it?

They should have just added a new spec, weapon, and skill type to each class with the expansion. None of this “Elite” nonsense, simply added. The class mechanics are a different story… as mentioned earlier, for some classes these new mechanics are were an improvement, for others they changed the entire way the class plays, and for some still they are too reliant on use of specific skill types. In most cases it’d be better for these new mechanics to simply not exist.

While I understand what you are saying, Elite specs are supposed to be better than the base class (and most are, with a few build exceptions), but the issue is there is only 1 for each class. Later, when we have 2+ elite specs to choose from it will be much better because they will be situational. It will go from a guardian always taking dragon hunter, to taking Dragon hunter when a ranged pressure/trap aoe is needed, or taking Cleric (just throwing a name out) when they need to heal.
As far as weapons, I will miss not being able to use a great sword on my necro when not taking reaper, but a lot of weapons you really can’t (or wouldn’t want to) use without their corisponding traits anyways.

Ok let’s get a few things straight here.

Elite Specs were called Elite Specs to denote you can only have one active at a time, you know like Elite Skills…. not that Elite Specs are supposed to be better than core specs.

The reason you can’t get Elite Specs before unlocking all other Specializations is because it is released with HoT as Expansion content, all HoT content is level 80 content, if you are level 80 you would already have every single core Specialization unlocked…..

Elite Specs will be released with each Expansion so when the new expansion happens more build diversity since you can have only one Elite Spec active at a time, and each Elite Spec will provide different way to play the class.

The only reason it looks bad now is there was only one Elite Spec released per class, would have been better if the Expac came with 2 or 3 per class.

The only reason they were/are better in most cases are due to Anet taking the extremely poor decision to make the elite Specs have a ton of power creep because of PVE, in Pvp they are nerfing the Elite Specs quite heavily bringing them in line with Core Specs in that game mode, and in PvE Core Specs on certain classes are just as effective as Elite Specs depending on the PvE content.

The only things I don’t like about the current system is that falling damage reduction takes up a slot and some traits are OP’d (some underpowered). Other than that, I think it works well:

• It forces us to make important choices about the sort of build we want.
• It’s gives us some interesting alternatives.
• It’s simple to use and simple to unlock the trait lines.

Frankly, I don’t care if it’s called “elite spec” or “alternative” or … it’s just jargon and, as in most of civilization, jargon doesn’t stand up to careful scrutiny of the word choice.

The OP can be broken down into two issues:

1. Elite specs are more powerful than other options.
2. Elite specs should not lock new weapons or skill types behind choosing the specialization.

I think number 1 is an issue. Elite Specs were supposed to be a new way to play the profession, and were billed as horizontal progression. Even some attempts by ANet to bring them more in line in competitive play have not addressed this issue in its entirety. However, the issues therein are complex. It’s not only that Resistance with boon share is making WvW zergs immune to conditions for far too long, it’s that conditions are far more powerful than they used to be. Some of that comes down to Elite Specs, but it’s more an issue with the adjustments to Condition Damage that preceded HoT along with the more powerful stat prefixes introduced with HoT. Addressing the game’s power creep is not going to be easy. The job will not be finished when XPac 2 hits, and it might introduce more creep.

Number 2 on the other hand, is a classic example of a designer introducing opportunity costs into a build design system and players wanting more choice with little to no opportunity cost. I’m always going to come down on the designer’s side on this issue. Some players may not like having to make hard choices in build selection, but having such is better for the health of the game. Contrary to popular belief, opportunity costs are the friend of build diversity, not the enemy.

Number 1 will always be an issue, otherwise players will gripe after spending the money on a full priced expac, asking how come I’m not doing any more damage with an “Elite Spec” over a standard. The recent nerf, in my opinion, is to create some space for the new elites to shine while not breaking the game experience with all the current level 80 content.

Everything that’s linked to the elite trait line is linked to it for balance purposes, for the same reason that you can explicitly only use one at a time. That way there’s no issues with people mixing the abilities of multiple elites in unexpected and probably broken ways (this was a huge issue with secondary professions in GW1).

slashlizardy.9167:

Number 1 will always be an issue, otherwise players will gripe after spending the money on a full priced expac, asking how come I’m not doing any more damage with an “Elite Spec” over a standard. The recent nerf, in my opinion, is to create some space for the new elites to shine while not breaking the game experience with all the current level 80 content.

That’s part of the problem… they created something that has an inherent stigma of “It has to be better” but at the same time, shouldn’t be better. There is zero legitimate reason for “elite specs” to actually be better than the base specs. They should be on par with other specs. Adding more options to specialize in certain aspects of a class is fine, but when you add an “option” that is clearly better than everything else the class has to offer, you’ve done the class a major disservice. Build Diversity went from being the name of the game to a mere afterthought practically overnight when Elite Specs came out.

Hyper Cutter.9376:

Everything that’s linked to the elite trait line is linked to it for balance purposes, for the same reason that you can explicitly only use one at a time. That way there’s no issues with people mixing the abilities of multiple elites in unexpected and probably broken ways (this was a huge issue with secondary professions in GW1).

Not exactly… in GW1 secondary professions became an issue due to the sheer quantity of skills available, it was a developer’s nightmare to balance every possible combination… As a result over the years we saw wave after wave of FoTM builds getting nerfed. Many people hated that their new favorite powerhouse builds kept getting nerfed, but when you take a step back and look at things in the grand scheme of things, you realize something. Arena Net was tackling the problem of balancing that massive amount of skill combinations in a very smart way, rather than try to find every possible broken skill combination and fix it on their own, they let the player base find them. Sure this meant there was always another broken combination if you looked for it, but it also meant they didn’t have to deal with the nightmare they created. With GW2 they opted to limit our skill choices drastically, in doing so they can more easily insure that all skill combinations are balanced. The new weapons and skills from Elite specs don’t change this. They could remove the restrictions from them and it wouldn’t impact balance one bit. These restrictions simply limit build diversity, they have nothing to do with balance. Balance concerns can be claimed as the reason endlessly, but when you stop and look at it from all angles, you simply can’t deny that there is no balance impact.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

The only things I don’t like about the current system is that falling damage reduction takes up a slot and some traits are OP’d (some underpowered). Other than that, I think it works well:

• It forces us to make important choices about the sort of build we want.
• It’s gives us some interesting alternatives.
• It’s simple to use and simple to unlock the trait lines.

Frankly, I don’t care if it’s called “elite spec” or “alternative” or … it’s just jargon and, as in most of civilization, jargon doesn’t stand up to careful scrutiny of the word choice.

That logic would be all fine and well if:

• We actually had a real choice
• Alternatives actually existed

As it stands, with nearly every class you either
A. Take the elite spec
or
B. Get used to soloing everything or playing with close friends only because no one is going to accept you into a group for anything.

Elite specs provide too much benefit. Forced choices are only good when all options are equal. If I made you choose between $100 cash or a sandwich, is it really a choice? No, because only a fool would take the sandwich. This is the type of “choice” that we’ve been given. It’s not a real choice, it’s a fool’s choice.

Sly.9518:

Ok let’s get a few things straight here.

Elite Specs were called Elite Specs to denote you can only have one active at a time, you know like Elite Skills…. not that Elite Specs are supposed to be better than core specs.

The reason you can’t get Elite Specs before unlocking all other Specializations is because it is released with HoT as Expansion content, all HoT content is level 80 content, if you are level 80 you would already have every single core Specialization unlocked…..

Elite Specs will be released with each Expansion so when the new expansion happens more build diversity since you can have only one Elite Spec active at a time, and each Elite Spec will provide different way to play the class.

The only reason it looks bad now is there was only one Elite Spec released per class, would have been better if the Expac came with 2 or 3 per class.

The only reason they were/are better in most cases are due to Anet taking the extremely poor decision to make the elite Specs have a ton of power creep because of PVE, in Pvp they are nerfing the Elite Specs quite heavily bringing them in line with Core Specs in that game mode, and in PvE Core Specs on certain classes are just as effective as Elite Specs depending on the PvE content.

And when we have more Elite specs, the same problems will still exist… and some of them will become even more apparent even. Weapons for example… The Warrior class is going to have every weapon available to them before any other class does, when this happens Arena Net will either have to start adding new weapon types or future elite specs for the Warrior will have to recycle weapons or simply not get new weapons… All of which are bad options… here’s why:

Adding new weapon types – Who all is going to get access to these new weapon types when they come out? If they don’t give the new weapons to other classes as well when they come out then people are going to cry foul about a whole new weapon type that only Warriors can use. At the same time if they do go to other classes as well, there will also be complaints about “X class still needs Y weapon, not this new weapon”. How many new weapons types are they willing to make? There really is quite a limit to the variety of weapons they can add. What’s even left anyways? Spears (as a land weapon), Scythes, Whips, Greataxe, Fist-weapons, Discs? Yea… not a whole lot…

No new warrior weapons – It doesn’t take a genius to see how this would turn out. “Why does everyone else get a new weapon with their Elite Spec but we don’t?” It’s obviously a problem.

Recycling weapons – potentially the least problematic, but still a major problem… Like above you get the issue of complaints about not getting a new weapon, but you also get the issue of “X elite spec’s identity is being removed by Y elite spec stealing it’s weapon”.

In the end it’d be better to just remove the Elite spec requirement from new weapons. Then when warriors run out of new weapons, there’s no real issue… it also opens up potential for adding multiple new weapons to some classes when warranted.

Would things have been better if they added 2 or 3 elite specs at a time? Maybe… but many of the issues I’ve brought up would still exist… all adding multiple Elite specs at a time would do is actually provide some actual choices and build diversity instead of shoehorning everyone into the same builds.

Well, I guess I’m a fool, because I feel I have lots of options. With the new expac coming sometime in the next 5-9 months, I’d expect at least one more elite spec and more options.

It’s fine because once we have multiple elite specs you still can only pick one. In fact, having 2-3 elite specs strong will promote more build diversity. You just see it as a problem now because there’s only ONE elite spec that has some power creep. It will get better as they introduced more, and it will make the xpacs more exciting than just having everything bland and exactly the same.

One thing I agree on is the weapon tied to the elite spec. For example I love my DH can use a LB but if future elite specs I prefer, then I can’t use my bow. But I doubt that will change so I am just going to live with it.

Despond.2174:

It’s fine because once we have multiple elite specs you still can only pick one. In fact, having 2-3 elite specs strong will promote more build diversity. You just see it as a problem now because there’s only ONE elite spec that has some power creep. It will get better as they introduced more, and it will make the xpacs more exciting than just having everything bland and exactly the same.

One thing I agree on is the weapon tied to the elite spec. For example I love my DH can use a LB but if future elite specs I prefer, then I can’t use my bow. But I doubt that will change so I am just going to live with it.

problem is the Anet ideals, each one needs to be superior to the last one, for the mandatory gimmick gameplay and to create the need that the new specializatin are required, will result in the game getting worse year after years with more aoe pve spam and more damage output to make the specs the only way to keep competitive and mandatory as well.

It could be somehting, but Anet is a joke at class balance and design… the specialization went completelly wrong how they were designed.

Here is why i hated the elite specs and i had this opinion in beta when i wrote a few threads for WvW and PvP about it.

1- Boons
I do not know why they created so much boon spam. The rev alone just gives boons with no real thought process. Warrior got a ton of boons for going into beserk mode and a elite skill to get into it which means there was gonna be constant spams.

I head butt you to go beserk, i gain might, fury, quickness. Because of another trait line i gain might on weapon swap as well as a condi clear. This means i go into beserk mode to do damage with said weapon and then out of beserk mode i will sit in shield stance so i can again go into my rotation for more boons to do the most damage while playing defensively.

That partially covers A class when it comes to boons but boons use to have to be set up now we just get it from hitting 1 button and bam 25 stacks of everything.

2- Build Diversity
No matter where you looked build diversity became worse and worse in all games modes when HOT released. It was Bunker Wars in PvP with 3 mesmers and 2 revs on 16 Pro Teams between NA and EU. It was Condi Wars in WvW where classes played condi so necros could play epi off of them killing whole zergs in seconds with no counter play.

Now usually PvE is play what you want but not in HOT. The key to playing HOT is AOE and playing CC. Its why people complained about pocket raptors or X vet boss. I for one dont consider this skilled game play and i find it as acheap trick into forcing most players to play the same skills.

For raids you have seen the lack of creativity with revs, engys. thieves, necros and guardians not even having a role for the meta. At 1 point it was 2 mesmers, 2 warriors, 4 eles and 2 druids. You join a pug group and this was the team comp everyone wanted because it was easy play with very few down sides.

3- The introduction of Elite Specs
Bringing elite specs into a game that has been working very well for 4-5 years you would think Anet would allow its PvP players and WvW players to work towards elite specs.

Anet didnt do to include other game modes with the new abilities. This drove alot of people crazy at the start of HOT and/or players who paly multiple chracters and have to unlock it on each character.

4- The Future
Many have touched on this but Anet straight up ran out of ideas to me when they brought in HOT. Adding class specific traits so a class can use a weapon in that trait line is really dumb.

They needed to add new weapons in this HOT expansion so they werent just giving classes new toys to play with. We are getting to the point were engys have weapon kits they dont use and the next weapon coming out might be grenades. Like for ele who has elemental weapons (which they nerfed to the ground) such as axes, hammer and Greatsword. They are now simply going to give ele a sword, this just shows a lack of ability to incorporate new things into the game.

You need weapons that give meaningful changes to a class. This HOT expansion gave us spam especially on classes like thief with 5 dodge 5 and dodge. Who at Anet thought staff spams was a good idea? Or the DH traps F3- F1 pull into traps.

Elite specs shouldnt have been the be all end all, they needed to add to potentially different styles of game play in zergs, 5 man teams and 1 vs X situations in PvE.

Because they couldnt balance specs classes lost the identities they had for 4-5 years. Players were happy with the state of the classes before HOT, the only people happy now are those who really like raiding.

Anet dropped the ball hard imo for HOT, if they do the same for the next expansion many will not have a reason to play it.

Side note the story of GW2 has gone full GW2 EX-Machina please get that back on track for the next expansion

Elite specializations are first and foremost the big selling point of HoT, making them stronger than the rest was to be expected and they have been nerfed through time. The same thing will happen with next expac. Most specializations will be full powercreep and slowly they will get nerfed again.

Regardless of balancing introducing overpowered stuff was always a selling point for pretty much any game. Check other more popular games like Dota/Lol, new heroes/champions are always OP at release and get nerfed after a while. It’s how u attract population, then striving to keep them.

As for build variety, there never was much even b4 HoT as all classes still had a "better"build, if nothing else u have more choices now depending on the mode u play.

For example guard can be played agressively in PvP, defensively in wvw and full dps on PvE.Something like that would never happen without DH. Same with rev,chrono, druid etc etc.And ranger used to be the most “useless class” without HoT.

zoomborg.9462:

Elite specializations are first and foremost the big selling point of HoT, making them stronger than the rest was to be expected and they have been nerfed through time. The same thing will happen with next expac. Most specializations will be full powercreep and slowly they will get nerfed again.

Regardless of balancing introducing overpowered stuff was always a selling point for pretty much any game. Check other more popular games like Dota/Lol, new heroes/champions are always OP at release and get nerfed after a while. It’s how u attract population, then striving to keep them.

As for build variety, there never was much even b4 HoT as all classes still had a "better"build, if nothing else u have more choices now depending on the mode u play.

For example guard can be played agressively in PvP, defensively in wvw and full dps on PvE.Something like that would never happen without DH. Same with rev,chrono, druid etc etc.And ranger used to be the most “useless class” without HoT.

What?

In PvP before HOT Tage a EU player played bunker guard to support ROM playing zerk warrior. After the loss at WTS 2 Tage switched to burn guardian and ROM went to shoutbow, a support build.

This is before HOT and there was also a medi DPS guardian with GS in WvW and PvP. So your comment of it wouldnt have happened without DH is completely false.

Also your ranger comment, i used my ranger in WvW all the time. I used to be known on CD maps for my name.

But besides that ranger was in WTS 2 and was in many ESL games with players like Hiro using cele longbow and some other players using bear bow.

Please before you make comments like “ohh we didnt have build diversity before HOT” stop that.

Look at ele alone, d/d ele was the offensive bruiser. Staff ele was considered a bunker and S/F was the burst. S/F ele used the Air trait line, d/d used the fire trait line and staff used the earth trait line.

That was in PvP and WvW and now only plays heal bot in PvP. Look at ele in raids, please tell me the build diversity there.

Also i play LoL too, they added Xayah and even though she was OP if we on bottom got a kill for instance if i was Kayle. It wouldnt matter if she was OP to start because i could quickly turn that 1 kill into a steam roll with a good jungler.

1 small mistake or a difference in skill level makes a huge difference. A 5 man HOT team would crush a 5 man core team in PvP almost regardless of skill level.

And the same goes for 20 vs 20 guild fights.

kdaddy.5431:

Here is why i hated the elite specs and i had this opinion in beta when i wrote a few threads for WvW and PvP about it.

1- Boons
I do not know why they created so much boon spam. The rev alone just gives boons with no real thought process. Warrior got a ton of boons for going into beserk mode and a elite skill to get into it which means there was gonna be constant spams.

I head butt you to go beserk, i gain might, fury, quickness. Because of another trait line i gain might on weapon swap as well as a condi clear. This means i go into beserk mode to do damage with said weapon and then out of beserk mode i will sit in shield stance so i can again go into my rotation for more boons to do the most damage while playing defensively.

That partially covers A class when it comes to boons but boons use to have to be set up now we just get it from hitting 1 button and bam 25 stacks of everything.

2- Build Diversity
No matter where you looked build diversity became worse and worse in all games modes when HOT released. It was Bunker Wars in PvP with 3 mesmers and 2 revs on 16 Pro Teams between NA and EU. It was Condi Wars in WvW where classes played condi so necros could play epi off of them killing whole zergs in seconds with no counter play.

Now usually PvE is play what you want but not in HOT. The key to playing HOT is AOE and playing CC. Its why people complained about pocket raptors or X vet boss. I for one dont consider this skilled game play and i find it as acheap trick into forcing most players to play the same skills.

For raids you have seen the lack of creativity with revs, engys. thieves, necros and guardians not even having a role for the meta. At 1 point it was 2 mesmers, 2 warriors, 4 eles and 2 druids. You join a pug group and this was the team comp everyone wanted because it was easy play with very few down sides.

3- The introduction of Elite Specs
Bringing elite specs into a game that has been working very well for 4-5 years you would think Anet would allow its PvP players and WvW players to work towards elite specs.

Anet didnt do to include other game modes with the new abilities. This drove alot of people crazy at the start of HOT and/or players who paly multiple chracters and have to unlock it on each character.

4- The Future
Many have touched on this but Anet straight up ran out of ideas to me when they brought in HOT. Adding class specific traits so a class can use a weapon in that trait line is really dumb.

They needed to add new weapons in this HOT expansion so they werent just giving classes new toys to play with. We are getting to the point were engys have weapon kits they dont use and the next weapon coming out might be grenades. Like for ele who has elemental weapons (which they nerfed to the ground) such as axes, hammer and Greatsword. They are now simply going to give ele a sword, this just shows a lack of ability to incorporate new things into the game.

You need weapons that give meaningful changes to a class. This HOT expansion gave us spam especially on classes like thief with 5 dodge 5 and dodge. Who at Anet thought staff spams was a good idea? Or the DH traps F3- F1 pull into traps.

Elite specs shouldnt have been the be all end all, they needed to add to potentially different styles of game play in zergs, 5 man teams and 1 vs X situations in PvE.

Because they couldnt balance specs classes lost the identities they had for 4-5 years. Players were happy with the state of the classes before HOT, the only people happy now are those who really like raiding.

Anet dropped the ball hard imo for HOT, if they do the same for the next expansion many will not have a reason to play it.

Side note the story of GW2 has gone full GW2 EX-Machina please get that back on track for the next expansion

Can’t +1 hard enough.

Weapons should have been incorporated into the core specializations; elites just made into new trait lines for the sake of new options or to majorly change the profession itself and nothing more. Makes it super easy to balance around because then weapons are decoupled and so on.

Everyone who played a lot of PvP and WvW (especially WvW) will know build diversity dropped massively with HoT.

Panda.1967:

Elite specs provide too much benefit. Forced choices are only good when all options are equal. If I made you choose between $100 cash or a sandwich, is it really a choice? No, because only a fool would take the sandwich. This is the type of “choice” that we’ve been given. It’s not a real choice, it’s a fool’s choice.

You’ll take the sandwich a 100 times if you are in the middle of nowhere, where money has no value – and exactly that means situational. That said: I lately used a ranger condi build – ranger, not druid. So there are some uses of old professions.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

The only things I don’t like about the current system is that falling damage reduction takes up a slot and some traits are OP’d (some underpowered). Other than that, I think it works well:

• It forces us to make important choices about the sort of build we want.
• It’s gives us some interesting alternatives.
• It’s simple to use and simple to unlock the trait lines.

Frankly, I don’t care if it’s called “elite spec” or “alternative” or … it’s just jargon and, as in most of civilization, jargon doesn’t stand up to careful scrutiny of the word choice.

Fortunately, while I like having falling if I do something stupid, it is less of a concern now that we can glide in most of the open world.

I agree with the general idea though. We only have 3 trait lines. If we take an elite line we only have 2 custom lines (so will always lose SOME ‘must have it’ thing) but if we stay as the base class we have 3 custom lines. I am not sure of the best solution though. Maybe always have 3 custom lines and any elites go in a 4th?

DeceiverX.8361:

kdaddy.5431:

Here is why i hated the elite specs and i had this opinion in beta when i wrote a few threads for WvW and PvP about it.

1- Boons
I do not know why they created so much boon spam. The rev alone just gives boons with no real thought process. Warrior got a ton of boons for going into beserk mode and a elite skill to get into it which means there was gonna be constant spams.

I head butt you to go beserk, i gain might, fury, quickness. Because of another trait line i gain might on weapon swap as well as a condi clear. This means i go into beserk mode to do damage with said weapon and then out of beserk mode i will sit in shield stance so i can again go into my rotation for more boons to do the most damage while playing defensively.

That partially covers A class when it comes to boons but boons use to have to be set up now we just get it from hitting 1 button and bam 25 stacks of everything.

2- Build Diversity
No matter where you looked build diversity became worse and worse in all games modes when HOT released. It was Bunker Wars in PvP with 3 mesmers and 2 revs on 16 Pro Teams between NA and EU. It was Condi Wars in WvW where classes played condi so necros could play epi off of them killing whole zergs in seconds with no counter play.

Now usually PvE is play what you want but not in HOT. The key to playing HOT is AOE and playing CC. Its why people complained about pocket raptors or X vet boss. I for one dont consider this skilled game play and i find it as acheap trick into forcing most players to play the same skills.

For raids you have seen the lack of creativity with revs, engys. thieves, necros and guardians not even having a role for the meta. At 1 point it was 2 mesmers, 2 warriors, 4 eles and 2 druids. You join a pug group and this was the team comp everyone wanted because it was easy play with very few down sides.

3- The introduction of Elite Specs
Bringing elite specs into a game that has been working very well for 4-5 years you would think Anet would allow its PvP players and WvW players to work towards elite specs.

Anet didnt do to include other game modes with the new abilities. This drove alot of people crazy at the start of HOT and/or players who paly multiple chracters and have to unlock it on each character.

4- The Future
Many have touched on this but Anet straight up ran out of ideas to me when they brought in HOT. Adding class specific traits so a class can use a weapon in that trait line is really dumb.

They needed to add new weapons in this HOT expansion so they werent just giving classes new toys to play with. We are getting to the point were engys have weapon kits they dont use and the next weapon coming out might be grenades. Like for ele who has elemental weapons (which they nerfed to the ground) such as axes, hammer and Greatsword. They are now simply going to give ele a sword, this just shows a lack of ability to incorporate new things into the game.

You need weapons that give meaningful changes to a class. This HOT expansion gave us spam especially on classes like thief with 5 dodge 5 and dodge. Who at Anet thought staff spams was a good idea? Or the DH traps F3- F1 pull into traps.

Elite specs shouldnt have been the be all end all, they needed to add to potentially different styles of game play in zergs, 5 man teams and 1 vs X situations in PvE.

Because they couldnt balance specs classes lost the identities they had for 4-5 years. Players were happy with the state of the classes before HOT, the only people happy now are those who really like raiding.

Anet dropped the ball hard imo for HOT, if they do the same for the next expansion many will not have a reason to play it.

Side note the story of GW2 has gone full GW2 EX-Machina please get that back on track for the next expansion

Can’t +1 hard enough.

Weapons should have been incorporated into the core specializations; elites just made into new trait lines for the sake of new options or to majorly change the profession itself and nothing more. Makes it super easy to balance around because then weapons are decoupled and so on.

Everyone who played a lot of PvP and WvW (especially WvW) will know build diversity dropped massively with HoT.

the fact that elites were generally higher powered is what dropped build diversity, not the elites themselves. For elites which gave mostly different playstyles, or paths, some of the core specs still served a purpose.

basically elite specs are pretty cool overall imo, the problem is the balance is off for many classes.

@ phys

You wrote that elite specs werent the problem but the fact they were Op was.

UMMMMMM yes thats what we are talking about.

If Anet simply made new specs which could give classes different styles of play style then bam no problem but they didnt. They gave us super power spec lines which meant all builds are to support that spec line.

I used warrior as a example and no one is arguing the uniqueness of the elite specs. Yeah in theory they are awesome but lordy lord could they have destroyed 2 side games faster?

Seriously PvP and WvW took huge hits on HOT release and PvP only survived because of PvP seasons and even then the PvP population got small and smaller.

Its never a good sign for WvW and PvP when Anet is trying to address the issues but cant since thats the balance teams job. So you get odd splits like “rise cool down from 40 sec to 60”.

Like seriously Anet is slowly nerfing elite specs but nerf right there should of been a WvW only nerf.

The reason elite specs are so bad is because they didnt work well with the already known core spec lines and they didnt know how to balance them at all.

Seriously WvW, PvP and even raids have had the worst build diversity i have ever seen in a PC game.

All I ever wanted was to be able to save my builds and switching between each of them in an instant. Guess 2017 we still have to click on each line/trait/ if you want to switch. Same goes for equipment. Other mmo’s have done it back in 2008 geeee

I think that they were not a good idea…

But rather a great idea. Elite specs allow for some of the gw1 secondary profession vibe where you get builds combining elements of two classes.

I think that the implementation c ould have been better though.

Venatorn.7619:

While I understand what you are saying, Elite specs are supposed to be better than the base class

No, they are not, at least not in all cases. Take Ranger, for instance. A Viper build is not using the Elite Specs at all as it is more powerful with other specializations used. Only when you are going to be the Druid healer you switch to Druid Elite Spec.

This is a good example of how this system is counter-intuitive. It’s min-maxing, as the meta consists of playing the “most efficient builds” only. (When HoT went live, I enjoyed playing a Berserker Ranger with some glyphs — it worked well, but it wasn’t “the best possible endgame build”, hence I was quickly forced into playing “either, or”. So now I play either Condi Ranger or Healer.)

I’m largely in agreement with IndigoSundown.

The elite specs weren’t supposed to completely overshadow the core specs, and pretty much since release, ArenaNet has been slowly toning down the elite specs and buffing the core specs to match. We probably won’t get there before the next expansion hits, but the issue is the balancing, not the elite specialisation concept itself.

Part of the problem, I think, is that a couple of the elite specs (dragonhunter and tempest) had some pretty strong backlashes from people who just didn’t like the concept. ArenaNet’s response was effectively to try to bribe those people by increasing the damage… when the problem was that those people weren’t complaining about the numbers, but simply that the elite specialisation was going in a direction they didn’t like. If anything, it made it worse for those people, since it made it harder to just ignore the elites and continue playing core builds.

On the future balancing side of things: Guild Wars 1 balancing did allow for ArenaNet to play whack-a-mole with overpowered combinations, but it was obvious that as the number of skills increased, they were never going to keep up. It would usually take them weeks or months to deal with a particular overpowered combination, and then the next one would appear, often within days. The elite specialisation system means that there are some combinations they just don’t need to worry about.

The flipside of this, though, is… how long is this realistically going to keep up? The more optimistic estimates for the next expansion to release still put it at two years after the first one. It’s possible that the third one will have a shorter wait as they settle into a steadier cadence of expansions and Living Story releases, but we’d probably still be looking at eighteen months or so. Which raises the question… how long is GW2’s lifespan going to be? It’s already been actively developed post-release for about twice as long as GW1 was – will it last long enough to have more than a handful of elite specialisations, and would it really be a big deal if the weapons and skills of a small number of elite specialisations can be shared?

However, I think ArenaNet is planning for the long term, and if they do get to the point where the number of elite specialisations per profession gets over half a dozen or so, they probably would start running into the ‘whack-a-mole with broken combinations’ problem. And if they stick to only running balance patches between seasons to avoid shifting the balance during a season, they’re not going to be able to keep on top of that.

To be completely honest, I’d have less of an issue with Elite specs if they weren’t required for the new weapons… the skills being locked I could live with, but the weapons NEED to be available to core… especially when it comes to classes like Engineer whose core weapons are an embarrassment.

The overpoweredness of most elite specs can and should be reigned in… It’s fine for them to allow more focused specialization into certain playstyles… it’s not fine for them to overshadow the rest of the class to the point that they are the optimal choice period.

For example, the Tempest makes it more viable to remain in a single attunement as an Elementalist. Something that many people complained wasn’t viable at launch. While it would have been better to simply make single attunement play more viable baseline, the addition of the Tempest brought the option to the board for players that wanted it… HOWEVER, it did so TOO well… even though Attunement swapping still has some benefits over the Tempest, the benefits of going Tempest are just too strong.

For some the elite spec itself isn’t actually overpowered… BUT, the new skills and/or weapon are far superior to what the core class offers… the Engineer is a prime example of this… the Scrapper spec itself is very much on par with other engineer specs, but the Hammer is an actual viable weapon for them unlike all of their core weapons.

good idea, bad implementation, specifically the balance and abandoned core specs/skills.
But if might be intentional, to force us to buy the expansion, who knows…

I think the grind for the new trait line etc etc is fine, but the most stupid thing about elite specs is that the you HAVE to use the Elite trait in order to equip the new weapon. My god on so many classes I want to use other trait lines but use the weapon.. Oh and only having one trait line in the future is dumb as well. Anet have to make the new elite specs more powerful in order for people to buy the expansion, leaving zero to none people using the first elite spec or weapon lmao. They need to change something in that department IMO.

I play Ele and I am going to miss my warhorn when the new Elite Spec arrives. I am still waiting for new sounds on skill activation, since the warhorn sounds like a fart.

I get stuck in my old habits, and have formed my favored builds around my play style, and for me, sacrificing a line on my Thief ruins what I built it around. It’s mainly Zerker and Assassin gear, so it falls in more with a power meta, but how I keep it alive and how I keep more initiative up uses all 3 trait lines and I can’t trait into the elite without having to re-do all my traits for the elite focus (which wouldnt be a big deal if we could save trait builds and swap accordingly). I also would need to learn Daredevil itself, something I’m not as comfortable with since I’ve grown used to my current Thief build.

If I COULD practice the staff skills on my current build at least I’d get used to the skills for melee (since my survivability counts on range and mobility and refunded initiative) when I can melee without worrying about how effective my staff is for downing adds or how it affects my survivability for elites and above when I’m in for melee. I just dont want to have to spec traits differently between getting used to the staff and going back to my tried and true for my play style.

I’m more flexible on other classes since I don’t know them as well and don’t really have a set play style aside from Guardian, but I could see myself changing my Guardian since I know my build for it isn’t the best and could use some tinkering. It’s just that I get used to things and don’t like changing them, but would love a bow as a ranged option.

Venatorn.7619:

While I understand what you are saying, Elite specs are supposed to be better than the base class (and most are, with a few build exceptions), but the issue is there is only 1 for each class. Later, when we have 2+ elite specs to choose from it will be much better because they will be situational. It will go from a guardian always taking dragon hunter, to taking Dragon hunter when a ranged pressure/trap aoe is needed, or taking Cleric (just throwing a name out) when they need to heal.
As far as weapons, I will miss not being able to use a great sword on my necro when not taking reaper, but a lot of weapons you really can’t (or wouldn’t want to) use without their corisponding traits anyways.

Incorrect
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sG5oUKqbIVM
Streamer/commentator/reporter Angryjoe directly asks in the above interview if specializations are supposed to be a step up in power over the base classes, and the developer states no, with no hangups, hesitation, ifs, ands, or buts. And it is far from the only place the developers stated so.

Conncept.7638:

Venatorn.7619:

While I understand what you are saying, Elite specs are supposed to be better than the base class (and most are, with a few build exceptions), but the issue is there is only 1 for each class. Later, when we have 2+ elite specs to choose from it will be much better because they will be situational. It will go from a guardian always taking dragon hunter, to taking Dragon hunter when a ranged pressure/trap aoe is needed, or taking Cleric (just throwing a name out) when they need to heal.
As far as weapons, I will miss not being able to use a great sword on my necro when not taking reaper, but a lot of weapons you really can’t (or wouldn’t want to) use without their corisponding traits anyways.

Incorrect
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sG5oUKqbIVM
Streamer/commentator/reporter Angryjoe directly asks in the above interview if specializations are supposed to be a step up in power over the base classes, and the developer states no, with no hangups, hesitation, ifs, ands, or buts. And it is far from the only place the developers stated so.

Lol i love angry Joe, I feel like he didnt give HOT a review because there wasnt enough game and because he knew he would have to give it a bad score after giving core GW2 a 10/10.

Who the kitten cares, just go with elite spec and get over it if you really need the extra oomph for 5% of the content.

ProtoGunner.4953:

Who the kitten cares, just go with elite spec and get over it if you really need the extra oomph for 5% of the content.

Maybe some of us actually want to use the core specs. Maybe some of us prefer not to use the new elite class mechanics. And yet maybe we still would like to use the new weapons or skills.

There is also the FACT that we were directly told by the devs that elite specializations would not be a direct improvement over the core, merely an alternative way to play the class.

Lets look at what we got out of that.

Elementalists got the Tempest… a spec that gives them access to 4 new abilities tied to their attunements. If you follow the meta guides they make overloads out to require you to sit in a single attunement for an extended amount of time, but the truth is you dont. You can very easily do a complete rotation in each attunement and overcharge then switch and repeat. All the versatility of core still exists with the added bonus of overload. This is NOT a sidegrade, there was no tradeoff, its a DIRECT UPGRADE.

Necromancers get Reaper, new mechanic replaces death shroud with reaper shroud. Well that certainly appears sidegrade, theres a complete swap, a tradeoff… one problem… reaper shroud is stronger than death shroud in every way.

Mesmers get Chronomancer… new 5th shatter shatter that litteraly reverses everything that just happened to them, including resetting cooldowns. Not to mention several traits that should have been baseline as they actually make the mesmers class mechanic functional.

Rangers got Druid… new class mechanic Celestial Form… access to 5 new abilities that rsplace your weapon abilities for a short period just like necromancer shrouds… tradeoff? Nope, none… still have pets, still have everything, just access to a new attack bar periodically.

Warriors got Berserker with their primal bursts and berserk mode… they didnt even try to hide the upgrade here… they quite litterally go into a berserker rage and deal more damage with everything including massivly beefed up versions of their core bursts. There is no downside, no tradeoffs, nothing but upgrades,

Thief got Daredevil… new mechanic… better at dodging… well will you look at that they actually made something sidegrade… getting a little more endurance and improvements to dodging is actually an equal trade with anything from any of the core thief specs… if only it didnt also come with that whole “and you must use Daredevil to use stzff and physicak skills” attachment…then it really would just be a sidegrade alternative way to play the class.

Engineers got Scrapper… with that came the function gyro… sure it may be seen as largely useless but its still a new mechanic that was simply added at no cost. And do you know what that entitles? Yup, its an upgrade… a largdly uselss one but an upgrade nonetheless… there is also the whole deal with the hammer being their best Power weapon outside of kits.

Guardian gets Dragon Hunter… new mechanic? Lets just quote the description for this one, “grants upgraded versions of virtues.” Well that seems pretty cut and dry to me. This is undeniably an upgrade, it even says so in the description.

And finally the Revenant with Herald… new mechanic? Facet of Nature… yup an extra ability… any tradeoffs? None at all… infact the very minor tradeoffs that other classes have of being limited on spec choices doesnt even exist due to Revenant design. You can still only have 2 legends at a time, and each spec is geared to a separate legend. So your still just going to take Invocation plus whatever spec pairs with your second legend.

So out of every class, thiefs are the only ones who even came close to having an elite spec that isnt a direct improvement… with engineer as a close second due to the sheer uselessness of their function gyro.

Panda.1967:

Maybe some of us actually want to use the core specs. Maybe some of us prefer not to use the new elite class mechanics. And yet maybe we still would like to use the new weapons or skills.

so you want to use the elite class skills without the mechanics… and this makes sense to you how?

next you’ll want to use ele utility skills on your necro just because you shouldnt be restricted by classes…..

Panda.1967:

Elementalists got the Tempest… a spec that gives them access to 4 new abilities tied to their attunements. If you follow the meta guides they make overloads out to require you to sit in a single attunement for an extended amount of time, but the truth is you dont. You can very easily do a complete rotation in each attunement and overcharge then switch and repeat. All the versatility of core still exists with the added bonus of overload. This is NOT a sidegrade, there was no tradeoff, its a DIRECT UPGRADE.

not true on the rotations remaining the same, i had to slow down most of my rotations and/or sit in a single attunement for way longer and use weaker skills than i normally would have to be able to use the overcharges…

Panda.1967:

Engineers got Scrapper… with that came the function gyro… sure it may be seen as largely useless but its still a new mechanic that was simply added at no cost. And do you know what that entitles? Yup, its an upgrade… a largdly uselss one but an upgrade nonetheless… there is also the whole deal with the hammer being their best Power weapon outside of kits.

i take a dps hit when i switch to scrapper over core engi, and i do so in order to be able to use the stealth & function gyro’s, seems like a fair trade to me.

zxstanyxz.8769:

Panda.1967:

Maybe some of us actually want to use the core specs. Maybe some of us prefer not to use the new elite class mechanics. And yet maybe we still would like to use the new weapons or skills.

so you want to use the elite class skills without the mechanics… and this makes sense to you how?

next you’ll want to use ele utility skills on your necro just because you shouldnt be restricted by classes…..

Panda.1967:

Elementalists got the Tempest… a spec that gives them access to 4 new abilities tied to their attunements. If you follow the meta guides they make overloads out to require you to sit in a single attunement for an extended amount of time, but the truth is you dont. You can very easily do a complete rotation in each attunement and overcharge then switch and repeat. All the versatility of core still exists with the added bonus of overload. This is NOT a sidegrade, there was no tradeoff, its a DIRECT UPGRADE.

not true on the rotations remaining the same, i had to slow down most of my rotations and/or sit in a single attunement for way longer and use weaker skills than i normally would have to be able to use the overcharges…

Panda.1967:

Engineers got Scrapper… with that came the function gyro… sure it may be seen as largely useless but its still a new mechanic that was simply added at no cost. And do you know what that entitles? Yup, its an upgrade… a largdly uselss one but an upgrade nonetheless… there is also the whole deal with the hammer being their best Power weapon outside of kits.

i take a dps hit when i switch to scrapper over core engi, and i do so in order to be able to use the stealth & function gyro’s, seems like a fair trade to me.

Tempest is a million times better and try using Engy in WvW and PvP without scrapper.

Im pretty sure there is a million PvE builds people can play but there is only 1 real build you can use in PvP and probably WvW.

Panda.1967:

There is also the FACT that we were directly told by the devs that elite specializations would not be a direct improvement over the core, merely an alternative way to play the class.

Lets look at what we got out of that.

{cut for conciseness}

So out of every class, thiefs are the only ones who even came close to having an elite spec that isnt a direct improvement… with engineer as a close second due to the sheer uselessness of their function gyro.

You could follow that logic and claim thieves got a direct upgrade – a third dodge and additional effects on their dodge. Although they did gut Acrobatics to do that…

Something you’re forgetting in this analysis is that picking up an elite specialisation does carry an opportunity cost: the third core specialisation you could have had otherwise. While the benefits of the core specialisations may not be as overt as changing up your profession mechanic, they are there, and some of them are quite good to have. An elite specialisation doesn’t need to have an explicit downside to taking the specialisation, like you seem to be asking for: the downside is that you don’t have the traitline that you would have had if you hadn’t taken the elite spec.

You do briefly raise this on the revenants, only to dismiss it on the basis that each traitline is tied to a given legend. However, revenant players can and do run traitlines that are associated with a legend they’re not running. Retribution has been a popular one in PvP for extra durability, for instance, as is running Devastation for additional damage in raids. I’ve also seen builds that run a particular legend while eschewing the traitline for that legend.

Whether the balance is right is another question, but we have seen core builds run in high-end play, and rebalancing since HoT released has been gradually shifting the balance so that the core specs are more desirable in comparison. On the whole, the elite specs probably are still just a little bit better on average than the core traitline that you’re giving up to have them, but the claim that there are no tradeoffs to taking an elite specialisation is patently false.

The specs become even more interesting when they release the next expansion. So, chill, wait and we’ll see what we get next. Progression is just normal and if you really want, just go and play a core spec. I play a lot with my core ranger condi spec.

kdaddy.5431:

zxstanyxz.8769:

Panda.1967:

Maybe some of us actually want to use the core specs. Maybe some of us prefer not to use the new elite class mechanics. And yet maybe we still would like to use the new weapons or skills.

so you want to use the elite class skills without the mechanics… and this makes sense to you how?

next you’ll want to use ele utility skills on your necro just because you shouldnt be restricted by classes…..

Panda.1967:

Elementalists got the Tempest… a spec that gives them access to 4 new abilities tied to their attunements. If you follow the meta guides they make overloads out to require you to sit in a single attunement for an extended amount of time, but the truth is you dont. You can very easily do a complete rotation in each attunement and overcharge then switch and repeat. All the versatility of core still exists with the added bonus of overload. This is NOT a sidegrade, there was no tradeoff, its a DIRECT UPGRADE.

not true on the rotations remaining the same, i had to slow down most of my rotations and/or sit in a single attunement for way longer and use weaker skills than i normally would have to be able to use the overcharges…

Panda.1967:

Engineers got Scrapper… with that came the function gyro… sure it may be seen as largely useless but its still a new mechanic that was simply added at no cost. And do you know what that entitles? Yup, its an upgrade… a largdly uselss one but an upgrade nonetheless… there is also the whole deal with the hammer being their best Power weapon outside of kits.

i take a dps hit when i switch to scrapper over core engi, and i do so in order to be able to use the stealth & function gyro’s, seems like a fair trade to me.

Tempest is a million times better and try using Engy in WvW and PvP without scrapper.

Im pretty sure there is a million PvE builds people can play but there is only 1 real build you can use in PvP and probably WvW.

I’ve been using core engi in pvp for the past 2 seasons… try again

Panda.1967:

So out of every class, thiefs are the only ones who even came close to having an elite spec that isnt a direct improvement… with engineer as a close second due to the sheer uselessness of their function gyro.

I’m sorry but this is just massively false.

In the competitive formats, core thief is absolute trash and Daredevil borders on being overpowered. DrD is already stupidly close to providing the same damage as core thief with everything about the core improved.

At this point, every spec has been powercreeped into oblivion. Until the DC buffs, Reaper was honestly best-matched to core in terms of power. Obviously no longer.

zxstanyxz.8769:

kdaddy.5431:

zxstanyxz.8769:

Panda.1967:

Maybe some of us actually want to use the core specs. Maybe some of us prefer not to use the new elite class mechanics. And yet maybe we still would like to use the new weapons or skills.

so you want to use the elite class skills without the mechanics… and this makes sense to you how?

next you’ll want to use ele utility skills on your necro just because you shouldnt be restricted by classes…..

Panda.1967:

Elementalists got the Tempest… a spec that gives them access to 4 new abilities tied to their attunements. If you follow the meta guides they make overloads out to require you to sit in a single attunement for an extended amount of time, but the truth is you dont. You can very easily do a complete rotation in each attunement and overcharge then switch and repeat. All the versatility of core still exists with the added bonus of overload. This is NOT a sidegrade, there was no tradeoff, its a DIRECT UPGRADE.

not true on the rotations remaining the same, i had to slow down most of my rotations and/or sit in a single attunement for way longer and use weaker skills than i normally would have to be able to use the overcharges…

Panda.1967:

Engineers got Scrapper… with that came the function gyro… sure it may be seen as largely useless but its still a new mechanic that was simply added at no cost. And do you know what that entitles? Yup, its an upgrade… a largdly uselss one but an upgrade nonetheless… there is also the whole deal with the hammer being their best Power weapon outside of kits.

i take a dps hit when i switch to scrapper over core engi, and i do so in order to be able to use the stealth & function gyro’s, seems like a fair trade to me.

Tempest is a million times better and try using Engy in WvW and PvP without scrapper.

Im pretty sure there is a million PvE builds people can play but there is only 1 real build you can use in PvP and probably WvW.

I’ve been using core engi in pvp for the past 2 seasons… try again

HAHAHAHAHA so what?

I use core Warrior for S1-2 and i got to legendary.

I used full trap ranger and pure glass cannon rifle warrior for S6 and if i played enough games i would of been top 250 NA.

Im talking actually being competitive, in S5 of PvP i was in Plat 2 and people were running alot of the same builds because they are simply better. Pro Players are using them in TOL/ ESL/ ALL TOURNAMENTS because they are clearly better.

Since you said try again i say prove it, show me that legendary rating/Plat 3 rating with a core engy and play history. I still have my S5 ranking where i finished around 1719.

Also at that level where your trying to actually compete you call out the the vanilla player since they will be easier to kill and do less damage.

Elite Specs in itself are no terrible idea. Anet just massively failed at implementign this feature in a good and for GW2 fitting way.

First they made the huge mistake to implement them at the worst possible time, right after a short time of thereally terrible June 23rd patch of 2015, which brought the whole Condition system since today totally out of control.
It should have been completely clear for anet, that puttign E-Specs into the game, whiel the game itself is in siuch a terrible state of class balance after that June Patch ,is just like putting a ton on oil into fire and expecting no disaster from that action with terrible consequences for the game.

That the E-Specs would massively backfire on the game balance when introduced at a moment, where the game mechanics itself were already totally out of control, is just freaking NATURAL and Naet should have known that ,that is is absolutely no good desicion to implement E-Specs basically at the worst possible moment right after the Condition Patch.

ANet should have waited with the implementation of E-Specs for their second espansion.
It would have been a much wiser desicion to focus on HOT with Mounts as its Main Feature, instead of using now Mounts for the second expansion as one of it main features. Because if they would have done so, then they could have implemented E-Specs now with the secodn expansion and would have had by doing so alot more time to implement the feature DIRECTLY with 2 Elite Specs per Class, so that this feature would have come together with more build diversity.

But by implementign E-Specs with only 1 Spec, this lead naturally by the overpowered designs they had to the point, that the vanilla classes got basically forgotten, and everyone basically had to bandwagon over to the new E-Specs, because they bame due to their powercreep designs instantly meta if you wanted to stay competitive and as such basically were from begin on “pay to win” basically and thats esssentiually the worst way how you should implement sub classes, ehm I mean Elite Specs

All the other outdated combat system mechanics did their last needed thigns to turn GW2 together with the out of control spam of conditions, and boons and since HoT now also out of control Crowd Controls due to Anet giving the break bar system stupidly only to PvE enemies, instead of usign this good system to rebalance crowd control mechanics for the whole game to be able to reduce this way also effect spam (Stability being obsolete then) into a completely unbalanced mess beyond any chance to repair, if ANet doesn’t stop finally playing ostrich and reworkes and adjusts its outdated combat system mechancis that are still using the 2012er balance designs, where all the thigns that Anet added over the years weren’t considered and were not part in their overall class balances, in which E-Specs, several newly added boons and conditions, lots of tait and skill changes didn’t exist at that time, which are all thigns, which need to be rethought and readjusted now for the combat system, if anet ever wants to get onto a green twig with this games state of balance, especially if they add in the future more Elite-Specs, which are a feature, that needs a good fundamentally working combat system, if not every newly added E-Spec Setup per Expansion should always lead automaticalyl the game to turn into pure chaos.

Especially if the effect spam constantly keeps on increasing, cause of Anet seemingly not wanting to make the neccessary changes on the Boon and Condition Systems to reduce the effect spam to keep the combat system overviewable!!

Elite specs were supposed to give professions a new role to play with, improve, or even add, a new way of playing your character.

For example, Rangers didn’t have a very good healing spec and Druid was addressing exactly that. However, they also gave Druids massive damage boosts, good CC abilities and in general made Druid essential even for non-healing gameplay

Daredevil offers a new way of playing the damage role without relying on Stealth, unlike Core Thief builds. Huge nerfs to Stealth made other play options far less appealing than using Daredevil. It also didn’t help that the whole idea of the Daredevil conflicted with the Acrobatics line, which was nerfed in order to make Daredevil the new “acrobat”

Tempest is another example of an elite spec causing nerfs to core specs. They nerfed Aura gameplay of Elementalists because Tempest was going to offer new Aura gameplay.

Elite specs shouldn’t make you better at everything you do. They should’ve been created in a way that opens up new builds and ideas, but not buff all existing builds.

See for example how Druid doesn’t buff condition damage Rangers, so the condition damage Ranger build in PVE doesn’t use Druid.

Scrapper does not buff Engineer dps in a considerable way (in PVE), therefore both condition and power meta engineer builds in PVE are not utilizing Scrapper. However, when the survivability of the Scrapper is needed (like in sPVP) Scrapper dominates

I don’t see a problem: usually you get bored after 3 years of the same core professions, so it’s nice to play 9(10) different ones the next couple of years…

maddoctor.2738:

Elite specs were supposed to give professions a new role to play with, improve, or even add, a new way of playing your character.

For example, Rangers didn’t have a very good healing spec and Druid was addressing exactly that. However, they also gave Druids massive damage boosts, good CC abilities and in general made Druid essential even for non-healing gameplay

Daredevil offers a new way of playing the damage role without relying on Stealth, unlike Core Thief builds. Huge nerfs to Stealth made other play options far less appealing than using Daredevil. It also didn’t help that the whole idea of the Daredevil conflicted with the Acrobatics line, which was nerfed in order to make Daredevil the new “acrobat”

Tempest is another example of an elite spec causing nerfs to core specs. They nerfed Aura gameplay of Elementalists because Tempest was going to offer new Aura gameplay.

Elite specs shouldn’t make you better at everything you do. They should’ve been created in a way that opens up new builds and ideas, but not buff all existing builds.

See for example how Druid doesn’t buff condition damage Rangers, so the condition damage Ranger build in PVE doesn’t use Druid.

Scrapper does not buff Engineer dps in a considerable way (in PVE), therefore both condition and power meta engineer builds in PVE are not utilizing Scrapper. However, when the survivability of the Scrapper is needed (like in sPVP) Scrapper dominates

Just kinda adding onto this, Druid doesn’t add ANY damage to the ranger, in fact it actually guts your potential damage because you give up having a 3rd offensive traitline, AND using the Druid class mechanic alone is a huge DPS loss since the only damage you deal is through your pet or utilities since all your skills become support focused.

I don’t know if it’s so much a terrible idea as an interesting concept with poor early implement. Of the nine professions only 2 got elite specs that aren’t meant for the bulk of gameplay. Druid and Scrapper have their place, though by comparison every other profession has the option to use their elite efficiently in practically all forms of gameplay. Like much of the HOT expansion there is too many unfinished ideas that make every aspect of the expansion weak. No part of it was really completed upon rollout and so every part of it feels lacking. What worries me more is we’re at the end of the expansion and they haven’t ironed out the creases. Hopefully Anet will get their act together and refine their efforts and not rush the next expansion soo much that they keep repeating the cycle over and over. I worry in some ways if this is going to be the future of gaming in general, hopefully not.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

Well, I guess I’m a fool, because I feel I have lots of options. With the new expac coming sometime in the next 5-9 months, I’d expect at least one more elite spec and more options.

Just curious: how many level 80 characters do you have and how many of them do you purposefully run without Elite Spec? (Purposefully i.e. not just because you haven’t unlocked the spec yet.)

Only my Engi is not running Elite spec.

ProtoGunner.4953:

I don’t see a problem: usually you get bored after 3 years of the same core professions, so it’s nice to play 9(10) different ones the next couple of years…

It would be nice if it was only one choice. But as it was said, if someone offered you a sandwich vs $100, that’s not really a choice.

maddoctor.2738:

Elite specs shouldn’t make you better at everything you do. They should’ve been created in a way that opens up new builds and ideas, but not buff all existing builds.

I completely agree with this. Unfortunately, the damage is already done, and unless Anet revises its whole system to correct that mistake, I don’t see a remedy for it.

P.S. @ Orpheal.8263: No offense, but you keep repeating the same statement over and over again, in variations, when you could have made your point in just one paragraph.

Elite specialization were needed to make the game more easy to create the gimmicks for the developers, even yet they failled with that design, it made the game worse.

Overall was a awfull decision as usual… ANet is an expert at borking stuff.