Guild Wars 2

I never played Factions, only Prophecies. My question is how does Factions compare to HoT as far as content. Does Factions or HoT have more land to explore? Achievements size, endgame content, replayability, variety of enemies, etc.

Well, you got two new classes + their skills, new skills for the core classes as well (though a lot of them are duplicates – remember that Factions is a standalone package and does not require Prophecies), you get a whole continent to play through (though it is smaller than what you get with Prophecies) + endgame dungeons.

So HoT is more comparable to EoTN than Factions or Nightfall.

Factions has more of everything. HoT is, something to do.

Technically speaking, Factions isn’t a 1:1 comparison since it wasn’t an expansion. Factions and Nightfall were both stand alone games. The more appropriate comparison is to Eye of the North, which blows Heart of Thorns out of the water.

Still, for the sake of playing devil’s advocate, Factions included two new professions, tons of new skills, 33 new areas, new armour skins with each set being unique for every profession and gender, god knows how many new weapon skins, 3 new PvP modes, new guild halls, 14 repeatable story missions, 2 elite missions and 5 challenge missions. There’s likely more but I can’t think of it off the top of my head.

One of the complaints I’ve seen pop up frequently on the forums is that HoT feels less like an expansion and more like exceptionally over-priced DLC. I’m inclined to agree with that view. HoT will likely get bulked out to a degree once the Living Story content drops but at the moment, it looks underwhelming in comparison and feels like it was shoved out the door before it was finished.

Tapioca.9062:

… Eye of the North, which blows Heart of Thorns out of the water….

LOL?
Let’s compare, with real numbers!
Someone already did it, from https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/hot/HoT-living-world-season-3/first#post5764319

maddoctor.2738:

Let’s talk exploration:
Map Exploration
EotN adds 4 new regions which include 13 towns/outpots, 33 landmarks, 18 dungeon entrances and 11 mission entrances for a total of 75 items to explore/find.
HoT adds the following on maps:
VB: 7 Waypoints, 26 Points of Interest, 11 Hero Challenges, 5 Vistas
AB: 7 Waypoints, 22 Points of Interest, 11 Hero Challenges, 6 Vistas
TD: 7 Waypoints, 20 Points of Interest, 11 Hero Challenges, 6 Vistas
DS: 11 Waypoints, 24 Points of Interest, 7 Hero Challenges, 7 Vistas
Total: 195, just the Points of Interest alone (92) are more than what you can find in the entire EotN.
Also, there are 15 Strongboxes to find, 2 Dive Master achievements, 23 Mastery Insights and 3 Jumping Puzzles (at least I know of 3 there might be more) for a total of 43 more things to do while exploring HoT. There are also other achievements to do but I will keep those for another point of comparison.
So the difference in exploration is staggering… HoT is much better for explorers than EotN, many more things to find and do there, although it has less zones in number.
You want to add the 18 dungeons of EotN in the list? Still HoT has way more to explore, that’s objectively proven.
Let’s talk about skills:
EotN added 150 new skills (100 profession skills and 50 pve-only skills)
Before counting skills in GW2, I must say that they work in a different way than skills in GW1. There are no “chain” skills that take different slots, but they are grouped in actual chains, this means chain skills will have to be counted twice (or more), there are also no long lasting buffs, instead we get Traits, so traits can easily count as GW1 “skills”. Because some of you might be weird I give two versions, one counts only unique buttons, the other counts all skills in the game.
Berserker: 18 / 30
Chronomancer: 9 / 23
Daredevil: 11 / 33
Dragonhunter: 14 / 26
Druid: 17 / 36 /
Reaper: 17 / 35
Scrapper: 12 / 38
Tempest: 18 / 30
Revenant: 62 / 155
Ranger pets: 4 / 12 (8 new pet skills, not F2 skills)
Total: 182 / 418
Just the Revenant alone gives more skills than the Entire EotN, but if you want only unique button presses (which is horribly wrong) HoT provides 182 skills compared to 150 EotN skills.
There are also 36 Mastery points which can change your gameplay and provide new skill-like abilities or other benefits.
So in terms of skills and character customization HoT provides loads of more options than EotN that it’s not even funny to compare the two in that regard.
Let’s talk about skins:
HoT
There are 3 weights, light/medium/heavy, 3 racial versions, Human/Sylvari/Norn, Asura and Charr for a total of 9 varieties of each armor set.
Bladed, Leystone, Guild have all the above requirements for 27 armor sets
Mistward has only heavy version for 3 new armor sets
Total armors = 30, multiply multiply by 6 for the different pieces = 180 total unique armor pieces
back pieces:
6 Scribe back skins, Bough of Melandru, Auric Backplate, Luminate’s Backplate, 3×3=9 Order back items, 4 Legendary backpiece skins, 2 achievement backpieces
Total: 24
Also, 9 Elite Spec skins
16 Auric Weapons, 16 Chak Weapons, 16 Reclaimed Weapons, 16 Plated Weapons, 16 Machined Weapons, 16 Shimmering Weapons, 16 Tenebrus Weapons, 19 Gold Fractal Weapons, 18 Elite spec weapons, 21 unique weapons
Total: 170
There are 20 Legendary Weapons + 3 upcoming new ones = 23, 3*Precursor Skins per Legendary Weapon (excluding Eternity), for a total of 69 new skins, plus the 3 new Legendary Weapons = 72 Legendary Precursors + Weapons
Although we haven’t seen it yet, it has been announced that we will get Legendary Armor, that’s 3 (weight) x 3 (racial) = 9 different sets 6 = 54 unique armor pieces. Another 54 for the Precursors for a total of 108 skins from Legendary armor
Total skins: 563 unique pieces of weapon/back/armor skins
EotN added 416=246 unique armor pieces
There are also 157 Unique weapons although lots of them are using old skins but I will add them to the list because I’m too lazy to count how many. Total of 403. I bet the unique gloves are less than the re-skinned weapons so it’s a good count.

tl;dr:
Exploration: HoT: 238, EotN: 98
Skills: HoT: 418, EotN: 150
Skins: HoT: 563, EotN: 403
Want more?
i am against all this gw1, gw2 comparison, but seriously if you’re gonna do, get it right.

So no, when talking with numbers, instead anecdotal evidence, EoTN does not blow HoT out of the water.

Did you just compare a vista or a point of interest in GW2 to a fully fledged multi level dungeon in GW1?

GW1 dungeons also had multiple hidden treasures and secret rooms.

Raids weren’t out when that guy posted those numbers.
So 18 dungeons vs raids + fractal rework.
I’ll take raids over 15 dead dungeons and 3 semi-active ones.

Well, a rerigged mesh for a different race is NOT another new armor. But some people will give you one peanut and start spin-doctoring off on proteins, sugar, the shell, never forget that great shell … and try to convince you that you’ve got youtself one hell of a deal.

Personal thing: I spent a long time in EoTN with my chars, getting map completition and “masteries” (the blessings), vanquishing, doing Slaver’s, doing VS farmin in groups and solo and I have to say … I had more fun there than I have in HoT.

And while EoTN got me rich (Essences for speed runners) HoT is making me poor

I’m not taking sides here I just think it’s stupid to include vistas and point of interests or waypoints as ‘content’.

HtFde.3856:

Well, a rerigged mesh for a different race is NOT another new armor.

True enough, but EoTN re-used a crapload of skins, so that point applies to both.

fishball.7204:

I’m not taking sides here I just think it’s stupid to include vistas and point of interests or waypoints as ‘content’.

Why? we have no other way of meassuring how much “space” there is to explore, feel free to provide one.

Well, it’s pretty hard to compare GW1 and GW2 … what I really like in GW 1 is that (except some places in EoTN … Minotaur herds, remember) you can just stop, get yourself a coffee, return and resume play. It’s more a strategical thing with ample time to ponder how to get through … GW 2 is more action and your smart and careful approach to a hairy situation (like the area with the treasure mushroom in VB before you come to the portal to AB) can be oblitarated by a surprise respawn, a surprise event (hey, protect that freshly spawned soldier from the freshly spawned enemies, my sneaking hero) or some other player that pulls a trail of enraged enemies after him and right into you.

Also enemies like the electric Wyvern up in the tree make me wanna cry in frustration. Whoever programmed them should really, really attend some advanced classes … coming from miles away, attacking once, retreating, retreating but running around the central stone, resetting and immediately running to attack as well + what seems to be a random respawn time … sometimes the dead one hasn’t even faded out when the new one fades in already.

Well Faction is a standalone campaign, it’s not an expansion of gw1, it doesn’t even require base game.

Factions being the only GW1 campaign I ever completed, to me it actually felt smaller. A big part in that was the fact that things were pretty linear with next to no exploration involved. Even the more convoluted maps around Kaineng only had two or max three paths you could go, and you’d soon memorize the way and the mobs wandering the streets.

HoT maps, on the other hand, are like a cross between a maze and a jiggsaw puzzle, with surprising twists and turns and lots of ways to get from a to z. I love exploring them, and finding new, unexpected places, paths, and shortcuts, which to me makes exploring HoT seem ever so much deeper than factions ever used to do. Plus you have respawn and maps changing depending on event progress and time of day, which to me makes things a lot more challenging than the instanced GW1 maps where I knew once I’d cleared out a part of the map nothing would bother me there until I restarted the instance.

To me, in terms of fun and time spent exploring and playing, one HoT map can easily make up for a dozend factions maps. With factions, I went through a map once for story/questing (sometimes two or three times if quests were chained so that you had to go back again and again), and once more for vanquishing and cartography, but that was pretty much it. HoT maps make me come back again and again, to map-complete, to play events, for adventures, hero points, whatever. I guess the non-linear gameplay of GW2 just suits me a lot better than linear GW1.

fishball.7204:

Did you just compare a vista or a point of interest in GW2 to a fully fledged multi level dungeon in GW1?

GW1 dungeons also had multiple hidden treasures and secret rooms.

Well, we should talk about dungeons in Guild Wars 1 and while we’re at it we should talk about quests.

Do you know how many quests Guild Wars has at launch. Prophecies had 203 quests. In fact, all four Guild Wars 1 titles put together had less quests than Guild Wars 2 had dynamic events at launch.

There’s literally no way to compare these games. Guild Wars 1 was completely pathed. On rails. No Z axis. No jumping. No swimming.

Not to say it wasn’t a great game, but the dungeons weren’t all multi level either. Snowman dungeon was one level. Kilroy’s dungeon was more like a boxing minigame and also one level. And many of the resources were reused from dungeon to dungeon as well.

And while we’re at it, people are complaining about grind. Well, I remember painfully grinding up some faction rep points in Guild Wars 1 to get my PvE only skills up to par. And they weren’t account bound. I had to level those skills up separately on each character. People say masteries are a grind. lol Give me a break.

I’ve played through every single zone in EotN many, many times. I was an altoholic in Guild Wars 1 too. There is NO comparison between those zones and these zones. Not even a bit. None at all. Those zones were like colorforms compared to these three, highly explorable zones. Aside from running around unlocking waypionts, EotN story doesn’t take any longer than the story in HoT. I know this because I used to fill those stupid books to level my rep.

Armor suits, btw, are rewards, not content. But Guild Halls here are a whole lot better than Guild Halls there. In fact, over all, I think PvE is must less on rails here than it was in Guild Wars 1.

Different strokes I guess.

As for Factions, you can beat that entire game in a day if you push it.

Raziel.4216:

Tapioca.9062:

… Eye of the North, which blows Heart of Thorns out of the water….

LOL?
Let’s compare, with real numbers!
Someone already did it, from https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/hot/HoT-living-world-season-3/first#post5764319

maddoctor.2738:

Let’s talk exploration:
Map Exploration
EotN adds 4 new regions which include 13 towns/outpots, 33 landmarks, 18 dungeon entrances and 11 mission entrances for a total of 75 items to explore/find.
HoT adds the following on maps:
VB: 7 Waypoints, 26 Points of Interest, 11 Hero Challenges, 5 Vistas
AB: 7 Waypoints, 22 Points of Interest, 11 Hero Challenges, 6 Vistas
TD: 7 Waypoints, 20 Points of Interest, 11 Hero Challenges, 6 Vistas
DS: 11 Waypoints, 24 Points of Interest, 7 Hero Challenges, 7 Vistas
Total: 195, just the Points of Interest alone (92) are more than what you can find in the entire EotN.
Also, there are 15 Strongboxes to find, 2 Dive Master achievements, 23 Mastery Insights and 3 Jumping Puzzles (at least I know of 3 there might be more) for a total of 43 more things to do while exploring HoT. There are also other achievements to do but I will keep those for another point of comparison.
So the difference in exploration is staggering… HoT is much better for explorers than EotN, many more things to find and do there, although it has less zones in number.
You want to add the 18 dungeons of EotN in the list? Still HoT has way more to explore, that’s objectively proven.
Let’s talk about skills:
EotN added 150 new skills (100 profession skills and 50 pve-only skills)
Before counting skills in GW2, I must say that they work in a different way than skills in GW1. There are no “chain” skills that take different slots, but they are grouped in actual chains, this means chain skills will have to be counted twice (or more), there are also no long lasting buffs, instead we get Traits, so traits can easily count as GW1 “skills”. Because some of you might be weird I give two versions, one counts only unique buttons, the other counts all skills in the game.
Berserker: 18 / 30
Chronomancer: 9 / 23
Daredevil: 11 / 33
Dragonhunter: 14 / 26
Druid: 17 / 36 /
Reaper: 17 / 35
Scrapper: 12 / 38
Tempest: 18 / 30
Revenant: 62 / 155
Ranger pets: 4 / 12 (8 new pet skills, not F2 skills)
Total: 182 / 418
Just the Revenant alone gives more skills than the Entire EotN, but if you want only unique button presses (which is horribly wrong) HoT provides 182 skills compared to 150 EotN skills.
There are also 36 Mastery points which can change your gameplay and provide new skill-like abilities or other benefits.
So in terms of skills and character customization HoT provides loads of more options than EotN that it’s not even funny to compare the two in that regard.
Let’s talk about skins:
HoT
There are 3 weights, light/medium/heavy, 3 racial versions, Human/Sylvari/Norn, Asura and Charr for a total of 9 varieties of each armor set.
Bladed, Leystone, Guild have all the above requirements for 27 armor sets
Mistward has only heavy version for 3 new armor sets
Total armors = 30, multiply multiply by 6 for the different pieces = 180 total unique armor pieces
back pieces:
6 Scribe back skins, Bough of Melandru, Auric Backplate, Luminate’s Backplate, 3×3=9 Order back items, 4 Legendary backpiece skins, 2 achievement backpieces
Total: 24
Also, 9 Elite Spec skins
16 Auric Weapons, 16 Chak Weapons, 16 Reclaimed Weapons, 16 Plated Weapons, 16 Machined Weapons, 16 Shimmering Weapons, 16 Tenebrus Weapons, 19 Gold Fractal Weapons, 18 Elite spec weapons, 21 unique weapons
Total: 170
There are 20 Legendary Weapons + 3 upcoming new ones = 23, 3*Precursor Skins per Legendary Weapon (excluding Eternity), for a total of 69 new skins, plus the 3 new Legendary Weapons = 72 Legendary Precursors + Weapons
Although we haven’t seen it yet, it has been announced that we will get Legendary Armor, that’s 3 (weight) x 3 (racial) = 9 different sets 6 = 54 unique armor pieces. Another 54 for the Precursors for a total of 108 skins from Legendary armor
Total skins: 563 unique pieces of weapon/back/armor skins
EotN added 416=246 unique armor pieces
There are also 157 Unique weapons although lots of them are using old skins but I will add them to the list because I’m too lazy to count how many. Total of 403. I bet the unique gloves are less than the re-skinned weapons so it’s a good count.

tl;dr:
Exploration: HoT: 238, EotN: 98
Skills: HoT: 418, EotN: 150
Skins: HoT: 563, EotN: 403
Want more?
i am against all this gw1, gw2 comparison, but seriously if you’re gonna do, get it right.

So no, when talking with numbers, instead anecdotal evidence, EoTN does not blow HoT out of the water.

I also agree that, while EotN added many great new mechanics, both Factions and Nightfall were better (being standalone and all), and that indeed HoT IS a worthy expansion rather than just a glorified LS3, as I was fearing it would be at first. I prefer Factions (Cantha was my favorite continent, and who doesn’t love exploding miasma afflicted creatures?)>Nightfall (I loved the Paragon)>EotN, but each game introduced a lot of great things to the old game

The difficulty in HoT is nice-not too difficult, not too brutal, and suggests playing more cooperatively even as a solo map roamer, which is a great thing, IMHO.

fishball.7204:

Did you just compare a vista or a point of interest in GW2 to a fully fledged multi level dungeon in GW1?

GW1 dungeons also had multiple hidden treasures and secret rooms.

The segment was called “Map Exploration”. It includes “18 dungeon entrances” I think that would’ve been very clear. GW1 had random treasures spawning with the use of the Light of Deldrimor skill, if I counted those I’d have to count all the Chests, Splendid Chests and Grand Chests found all around HoT. No, I’d even have to add every single Flax Node too. See how that would work.

Please EotN was a joke compared to HoT, it’s not even funny to compare the two.

fishball.7204:

I’m not taking sides here I just think it’s stupid to include vistas and point of interests or waypoints as ‘content’.

I didn’t say it was ‘content’, it was a point to compare the two games. How much MORE you can find/explore in HoT compared to EotN although EotN had more zones, they were mostly empty, HoT has less, but they are packed full with things to do. There is no way to objectively compare the two games, however, since people love the “EotN added more zones than HoT, so HoT is bad” QQing, I had to count how many actual things you can do on those zones to make a more accurate comparison. Amount of zones doesn’t equal bigger game.

It’s funny how you object to adding waypoints and vistas and not the equal things found on EotN zones…

HtFde.3856:

Well, a rerigged mesh for a different race is NOT another new armor.

That’s why I never counted skins for Sylvari/Norn/Humans separately, since they are similar. Charr and Asura armor skins on the other hand aren’t exactly “rerigged” meshes of the Human version.

I don’t quite understand why people are counting the “size” and “content” of HoT compared to EoTN. In order to truly compare Eye of the North to Heart of Thorns, you have to look at a couple of things.

I would start by comparing the base games first and foremost. From Guild Wars 1 to Guild Wars Eye of the North, there was only a 3 year gap of release. More content may or may not have been added after the release of EoTN, but ultimately, the 3 years are where the bulk of content was provided.

When you say “HoT adds more content than EoTN,” you must also look at and compare how much content was already released in the Guild Wars 1 universe before EoTN came out compared to Guild Wars 2 and HoT.

Of Course GW2 is going to be much larger in scale, it’s a newer game. Times have changed and of course things will go from simple to more extravagant as games progress. With that said, you must ultimately compare GW1 to GW2. GW1 is a complete series of games with multiple “base games,” featuring multiple distinct storylines about various different ethnicities (which is one thing that made me play the game).

Guild Wars 2 only has 1 main story. It has released Living World content, but that’s also only 1 story. It may have taken this long to get to Mordremoth, but it’s still only one story. Heart of Thorns is that same story as was presented in Guild Wars 2 base, so there’s technically no new storyline within HoT, only a continuation.

HoT has new content, of course, what new release doesn’t. EoTN has mini games, HoT has minigames. EoTN introduced dungeons, HoT introduced raids. Compare if you will, it doesn’t change anything. Stop looking at how “big” something is in “scale” because that is nowhere near a direct comparison in the slightest.

Something I loved about EoTN is that within those new regions that were added, there were multiple maps (maybe only about 4-5 in each region), but they were new places to explore. Within HoT, multiple sub-levels of the same map isn’t something new to explore, it’s only a very large map.

So continue quoting numbers of useless comparisons; “eotn added 150 skills,” and “revenant has more skills than EoTn entirely.” Really? I’ve never heard anything more idiotic in my life. Since GW2 started, how many new skills were released? Now when Guild Wars 1 Started, how many new skills were released? A whole giant set of them with each new campaign, and cherry-on-top skills within EoTN; so yes, Revenant has more skills than an entire GW1 Expansion; and look at how long it’s taken that class with so many skills to come out?

I don’t think you can count raids as general content when they are restricted to a tiny percentage of the population…

I don’t see how anyone can compare guild Halls between the two either. H0T guild hall needs a massive amount of mats and basically huge numbers of members to advance to even basic functions which are then gated behind scribe (who might leave the guild, tough luck!). Guild Wars halls was very easy to upgrade and once it was done, it was done. they also served a very useful function for GVG, whereas H0T hall has some squalid round piece of ground that they laughing describe as a place to have fights on.

I’m pretty sure if they were designing Guild Wars now it would be much more attractive as well as bigger.

But bear one thing in mind- Guild Wars was much more a pvp game than GW2 is or will ever be.

Factions was amazing. HoT is amazingly small.

So they share at least some similarities.

I never finished Prophecies once I got Factions. Spent all my time in Cantha. It certainly felt larger than Prophecies.

Ashern.5328:

So continue quoting numbers of useless comparisons; “eotn added 150 skills,” and “revenant has more skills than EoTn entirely.” Really? I’ve never heard anything more idiotic in my life. Since GW2 started, how many new skills were released? Now when Guild Wars 1 Started, how many new skills were released? A whole giant set of them with each new campaign, and cherry-on-top skills within EoTN; so yes, Revenant has more skills than an entire GW1 Expansion; and look at how long it’s taken that class with so many skills to come out?

I’ll take numbers over “bellyfeelings”, there’s no other way to make an objective comparison.
We’re comparing HoT vs EoTN, not aditional content released between expansions, feel free to start a discussion about those.

Aww sadly I expected this thread to be about being able to choose a faction to represent …maybe to fight against the frogs or take sides with the plants and engage in some sort of mixed pve-pvp activity … —kicks a soda can--

Well the OP was comparing Factions to HoT so….perhaps the discussion of EoTN vs HoT should be in another topic? Just a thought.

Thiefz.3695:

Well the OP was comparing Factions to HoT so….perhaps the discussion of EoTN vs HoT should be in another topic? Just a thought.

Someone corrected the OP on the 3rd or 4th post since factions is not an expansion, if you want to compare expansions you only have EoTN.

Well being factions was a standalone game, hot is an expansion of a game that aren’t comparable.

As said, EotN is the content to compare

Ashern.5328:

I would start by comparing the base games first and foremost. From Guild Wars 1 to Guild Wars Eye of the North, there was only a 3 year gap of release. More content may or may not have been added after the release of EoTN, but ultimately, the 3 years are where the bulk of content was provided.

How about comparing Guild Wars 1 at release with Guild Wars 2 at release as well? How about counting all the temporary content we’ve got since release in GW2?

When you say “HoT adds more content than EoTN,” you must also look at and compare how much content was already released in the Guild Wars 1 universe before EoTN came out compared to Guild Wars 2 and HoT.

Factions and Nightfall were both paid full campaigns. Not only that but after Factions was released the price of Prophecies was the same, similar with Nightfall. With Guild Wars 2 not only you could play the game without paying anything for those 3 years but once HoT was out the base game was given for free. You should also add how much more complex GW2 is compared to GW1, a zone/map in GW2 is as complex as several GW1 zones which were very flat. And let’s not get started on skin/graphic details.

With that said, you must ultimately compare GW1 to GW2.

Who says “you must”? No there is no such need, all you need to do is compare the only real expansion for GW1 with the only expansion for GW2. Fair to compare similar things.

HoT has new content, of course, what new release doesn’t. EoTN has mini games, HoT has minigames. EoTN introduced dungeons, HoT introduced raids. Compare if you will, it doesn’t change anything. Stop looking at how “big” something is in “scale” because that is nowhere near a direct comparison in the slightest.

In my post I made an as objective as possible comparison between the two games.

So continue quoting numbers of useless comparisons; “eotn added 150 skills,” and “revenant has more skills than EoTn entirely.” Really? I’ve never heard anything more idiotic in my life.

That was a simple objective truth. You don’t like it? Fine but don’t insult others calling it idiotic.

Since GW2 started, how many new skills were released? Now when Guild Wars 1 Started, how many new skills were released? A whole giant set of them with each new campaign, and cherry-on-top skills within EoTN; so yes, Revenant has more skills than an entire GW1 Expansion; and look at how long it’s taken that class with so many skills to come out?

That’s irrelevant to the discussion and the comparison between two real expansions of two different games. Try to stay on topic.

circuitnerd.5863:

I never played Factions, only Prophecies. My question is how does Factions compare to HoT as far as content. Does Factions or HoT have more land to explore? Achievements size, endgame content, replayability, variety of enemies, etc.

I think a fair comparison would be considering this elements:

1.Time of development.
2. Games of same scale, elements, complexity, etc.
3. Taking in account feature implementations.
4. Taking in account the impact of the expansion(s) in the core game or pre expansion(s) game(s).

For 2 i will suggest you guys compare the core GW2 game with Hot expansion, using the 1, 3 and 4 points. Hot added complexity to the game but its measured in 3 and 4 so its okay if theres difference of complexities between both.

Edit: Its pretty obvius you need to considerate the initial price difference between both games (not budget related, since what you are checking its the consumer point of view).

Raziel.4216:

Tapioca.9062:

… Eye of the North, which blows Heart of Thorns out of the water….

LOL?
Let’s compare, with real numbers!
Someone already did it, from https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/hot/HoT-living-world-season-3/first#post5764319

maddoctor.2738:

Let’s talk exploration:
Map Exploration
EotN adds 4 new regions which include 13 towns/outpots, 33 landmarks, 18 dungeon entrances and 11 mission entrances for a total of 75 items to explore/find.
HoT adds the following on maps:
VB: 7 Waypoints, 26 Points of Interest, 11 Hero Challenges, 5 Vistas
AB: 7 Waypoints, 22 Points of Interest, 11 Hero Challenges, 6 Vistas
TD: 7 Waypoints, 20 Points of Interest, 11 Hero Challenges, 6 Vistas
DS: 11 Waypoints, 24 Points of Interest, 7 Hero Challenges, 7 Vistas
Total: 195, just the Points of Interest alone (92) are more than what you can find in the entire EotN.
Also, there are 15 Strongboxes to find, 2 Dive Master achievements, 23 Mastery Insights and 3 Jumping Puzzles (at least I know of 3 there might be more) for a total of 43 more things to do while exploring HoT. There are also other achievements to do but I will keep those for another point of comparison.
So the difference in exploration is staggering… HoT is much better for explorers than EotN, many more things to find and do there, although it has less zones in number.
You want to add the 18 dungeons of EotN in the list? Still HoT has way more to explore, that’s objectively proven.
Let’s talk about skills:
EotN added 150 new skills (100 profession skills and 50 pve-only skills)
Before counting skills in GW2, I must say that they work in a different way than skills in GW1. There are no “chain” skills that take different slots, but they are grouped in actual chains, this means chain skills will have to be counted twice (or more), there are also no long lasting buffs, instead we get Traits, so traits can easily count as GW1 “skills”. Because some of you might be weird I give two versions, one counts only unique buttons, the other counts all skills in the game.
Berserker: 18 / 30
Chronomancer: 9 / 23
Daredevil: 11 / 33
Dragonhunter: 14 / 26
Druid: 17 / 36 /
Reaper: 17 / 35
Scrapper: 12 / 38
Tempest: 18 / 30
Revenant: 62 / 155
Ranger pets: 4 / 12 (8 new pet skills, not F2 skills)
Total: 182 / 418
Just the Revenant alone gives more skills than the Entire EotN, but if you want only unique button presses (which is horribly wrong) HoT provides 182 skills compared to 150 EotN skills.
There are also 36 Mastery points which can change your gameplay and provide new skill-like abilities or other benefits.
So in terms of skills and character customization HoT provides loads of more options than EotN that it’s not even funny to compare the two in that regard.
Let’s talk about skins:
HoT
There are 3 weights, light/medium/heavy, 3 racial versions, Human/Sylvari/Norn, Asura and Charr for a total of 9 varieties of each armor set.
Bladed, Leystone, Guild have all the above requirements for 27 armor sets
Mistward has only heavy version for 3 new armor sets
Total armors = 30, multiply multiply by 6 for the different pieces = 180 total unique armor pieces
back pieces:
6 Scribe back skins, Bough of Melandru, Auric Backplate, Luminate’s Backplate, 3×3=9 Order back items, 4 Legendary backpiece skins, 2 achievement backpieces
Total: 24
Also, 9 Elite Spec skins
16 Auric Weapons, 16 Chak Weapons, 16 Reclaimed Weapons, 16 Plated Weapons, 16 Machined Weapons, 16 Shimmering Weapons, 16 Tenebrus Weapons, 19 Gold Fractal Weapons, 18 Elite spec weapons, 21 unique weapons
Total: 170
There are 20 Legendary Weapons + 3 upcoming new ones = 23, 3*Precursor Skins per Legendary Weapon (excluding Eternity), for a total of 69 new skins, plus the 3 new Legendary Weapons = 72 Legendary Precursors + Weapons
Although we haven’t seen it yet, it has been announced that we will get Legendary Armor, that’s 3 (weight) x 3 (racial) = 9 different sets 6 = 54 unique armor pieces. Another 54 for the Precursors for a total of 108 skins from Legendary armor
Total skins: 563 unique pieces of weapon/back/armor skins
EotN added 416=246 unique armor pieces
There are also 157 Unique weapons although lots of them are using old skins but I will add them to the list because I’m too lazy to count how many. Total of 403. I bet the unique gloves are less than the re-skinned weapons so it’s a good count.

tl;dr:
Exploration: HoT: 238, EotN: 98
Skills: HoT: 418, EotN: 150
Skins: HoT: 563, EotN: 403
Want more?
i am against all this gw1, gw2 comparison, but seriously if you’re gonna do, get it right.

So no, when talking with numbers, instead anecdotal evidence, EoTN does not blow HoT out of the water.

Most of those numbers make me laugh. WP, POI and vistas hardlyare things to find. How many POI’s are really interesting?last time I found an interesting POI was when I found what was left of GW1 LA, or ToA in Godlost swamp.

Traits yeah half the time I end up having to use traits I don’t want to use with this new system. GW1 system gave you far more choice.

Skins, yeah EoTN reskined some armor, I’m sure.if we looked closely to the skins in GW2 we would find most where reskins also. Nothing hing wrong with that, but me personally most of the new skins in HoT are not great at all. Exalted are probably the best looking.

HoT offers alot, but I feel EoTN was a lot more fun to play.

BrotherBelial.3094:

Most of those numbers make me laugh. WP, POI and vistas hardlyare things to find. How many POI’s are really interesting?last time I found an interesting POI was when I found what was left of GW1 LA, or ToA in Godlost swamp.

And how is that relevant? he’s comparing the exploration aspects of the game, were you amazed at every landmark in GW1? no, but they still count.

BrotherBelial.3094:

Traits yeah half the time I end up having to use traits I don’t want to use with this new system. GW1 system gave you far more choice.

EoTN had less active skills and you can’t possibly claim that adding stat points was “more choice” than choosing traits.
Still, numbers don’t lie and EoTN is far behind, the objective evidence is not on your side.

BrotherBelial.3094:

Skins, yeah EoTN reskined some armor, I’m sure.if we looked closely to the skins in GW2 we would find most where reskins also. Nothing hing wrong with that, but me personally most of the new skins in HoT are not great at all. Exalted are probably the best looking.

Noone claimed GW2 had no re-skins, the guy was comparing both games, without removing re-skins and HoT is still ahead.

Vayne.8563:

And while we’re at it, people are complaining about grind. Well, I remember painfully grinding up some faction rep points in Guild Wars 1 to get my PvE only skills up to par. And they weren’t account bound. I had to level those skills up separately on each character. People say masteries are a grind. lol Give me a break.

But you forget one important thing – grinding faction points actually made your track specific skills stronger. It wasn’t just “hey, go grind 13 million XP just so you can mine auric slivers”. Your skill were actually more useful with every progressing tier. Remember Domain of Anguish and how important it was to have a high Lightbringer title track? GW1 actually made sense in terms of “mastery” progression – something I honestly can’t say about HoT.

Raziel.4216:

BrotherBelial.3094:

Most of those numbers make me laugh. WP, POI and vistas hardlyare things to find. How many POI’s are really interesting?last time I found an interesting POI was when I found what was left of GW1 LA, or ToA in Godlost swamp.

And how is that relevant? he’s comparing the exploration aspects of the game, were you amazed at every landmark in GW1? no, but they still count.

BrotherBelial.3094:

Traits yeah half the time I end up having to use traits I don’t want to use with this new system. GW1 system gave you far more choice.

EoTN had less active skills and you can’t possibly claim that adding stat points was “more choice” than choosing traits.
Still, numbers don’t lie and GW1 is far behind, the objective evidence is not on your side.

BrotherBelial.3094:

Skins, yeah EoTN reskined some armor, I’m sure.if we looked closely to the skins in GW2 we would find most where reskins also. Nothing hing wrong with that, but me personally most of the new skins in HoT are not great at all. Exalted are probably the best looking.

Noone claimed GW2 had no re-skins, the guy was comparing both games, without removing re-skins and HoT is still ahead.

Yeah your a HoT fan boy, I can see. Numbers are irrelevant when it comes to having fun or not. You can throw all the numbers you want, fact is, a vast amount of people are unhappy with what HoT delivered. I still think EoTN was a better game. HoT has a good story, that about it for me.

One does not simply compare Anet material to Anet v.2 material.

Doesn’t anyone miss reputations? Come on…REPUTATIONS!

Long story short, Anet should scrap the expansion idea, and go back to their overlapping stand-alone campaign train of thought. They made Factions and Nightfall all within good time frames, with EotN adding new mechanics (HoT does this)

So it is almost the same, we are just missing 2 campaigns between launch and HoT (lol) :/

BrotherBelial.3094:

Raziel.4216:

BrotherBelial.3094:

Most of those numbers make me laugh. WP, POI and vistas hardlyare things to find. How many POI’s are really interesting?last time I found an interesting POI was when I found what was left of GW1 LA, or ToA in Godlost swamp.

And how is that relevant? he’s comparing the exploration aspects of the game, were you amazed at every landmark in GW1? no, but they still count.

BrotherBelial.3094:

Traits yeah half the time I end up having to use traits I don’t want to use with this new system. GW1 system gave you far more choice.

EoTN had less active skills and you can’t possibly claim that adding stat points was “more choice” than choosing traits.
Still, numbers don’t lie and GW1 is far behind, the objective evidence is not on your side.

BrotherBelial.3094:

Skins, yeah EoTN reskined some armor, I’m sure.if we looked closely to the skins in GW2 we would find most where reskins also. Nothing hing wrong with that, but me personally most of the new skins in HoT are not great at all. Exalted are probably the best looking.

Noone claimed GW2 had no re-skins, the guy was comparing both games, without removing re-skins and HoT is still ahead.

Yeah your a HoT fan boy, I can see. Numbers are irrelevant when it comes to having fun or not. You can throw all the numbers you want, fact is, a vast amount of people are unhappy with what HoT delivered. I still think EoTN was a better game. HoT has a good story, that about it for me.

Calling those who don’t agree with you fanboys makes it less likely for anyone to take you seriously.
Numbers are relevant when people claim one expansion added a lot more content, numbers demonstrate if that’s true or not. The objective evidence is not on your side, feel free to provide some that favors your point, or simply accept that -dramatic pause- reality doesn’t agree with you.
It’s either numbers or everyone’s bellyfeelings, I’ll stick to numbers.

holodoc.5748:

GW1 actually made sense in terms of “mastery” progression – something I honestly can’t say about HoT.

Masteries are used in boss fights and facilitate navigation, in an expansion focused on exploring the jungle that makes a lot of sense to me.

Ephemiel.5694:

Raziel.4216:

Ephemiel.5694:

I couldn’t stop laughing when someone here used waypoints, vistas and points of interest as “content”.

Btw, there’s certain people here who will ALWAYS kiss Anet’s kitten , Raziel and Vayne are two of them.

And we couldn’t stop laughing when you posted this after he already clarified that it’s simply an exploration aspect, just like GW1 landmarks.
Keep it up! And calling names makes everyone take your posts more seriously

Feel free to provide objective evidence that backs up the “EoTN had a lot more stuff!” position and I’ll support that immediately, I rather follow reality instead of my own bellyfeelings.

Must be nice when “reality” is made up by your own opinions as you’ve both proven before.

Really? Please quote which part of my “opinion” created those numbers that don’t support your position.

Ashern.5328:

I don’t quite understand why people are counting the “size” and “content” of HoT compared to EoTN. In order to truly compare Eye of the North to Heart of Thorns, you have to look at a couple of things.

I would start by comparing the base games first and foremost. From Guild Wars 1 to Guild Wars Eye of the North, there was only a 3 year gap of release. More content may or may not have been added after the release of EoTN, but ultimately, the 3 years are where the bulk of content was provided.

When you say “HoT adds more content than EoTN,” you must also look at and compare how much content was already released in the Guild Wars 1 universe before EoTN came out compared to Guild Wars 2 and HoT.

Of Course GW2 is going to be much larger in scale, it’s a newer game. Times have changed and of course things will go from simple to more extravagant as games progress. With that said, you must ultimately compare GW1 to GW2. GW1 is a complete series of games with multiple “base games,” featuring multiple distinct storylines about various different ethnicities (which is one thing that made me play the game).

Guild Wars 2 only has 1 main story. It has released Living World content, but that’s also only 1 story. It may have taken this long to get to Mordremoth, but it’s still only one story. Heart of Thorns is that same story as was presented in Guild Wars 2 base, so there’s technically no new storyline within HoT, only a continuation.

HoT has new content, of course, what new release doesn’t. EoTN has mini games, HoT has minigames. EoTN introduced dungeons, HoT introduced raids. Compare if you will, it doesn’t change anything. Stop looking at how “big” something is in “scale” because that is nowhere near a direct comparison in the slightest.

Something I loved about EoTN is that within those new regions that were added, there were multiple maps (maybe only about 4-5 in each region), but they were new places to explore. Within HoT, multiple sub-levels of the same map isn’t something new to explore, it’s only a very large map.

So continue quoting numbers of useless comparisons; “eotn added 150 skills,” and “revenant has more skills than EoTn entirely.” Really? I’ve never heard anything more idiotic in my life. Since GW2 started, how many new skills were released? Now when Guild Wars 1 Started, how many new skills were released? A whole giant set of them with each new campaign, and cherry-on-top skills within EoTN; so yes, Revenant has more skills than an entire GW1 Expansion; and look at how long it’s taken that class with so many skills to come out?

Explore? What is this explore you talk about. There was far less to explore in Guild Wars 1 because everything was pathed. In my opinion, Those flat maps in Guild Wars 1 gave very little room for “exploration”. There may have been a few hidden things on each map but they were very few. And getting to them was easy because mostly everything was pathed. Actually EoTN was less pathed than most of the game that preceded it, but exploration in Guild Wars 1 was far more limited.

There was nothing in Guild Wars 1 that you’d explore and find a jumping puzzle. There were very few areas like the hidden Copse in Pre. You may equate walking around with exploring, but I don’t.

Exploring to me also means finding an event or quest you haven’t done before, and that almost never happened in Guild Wars 1. The complexity of those maps meant you played each one for a couple of hours and you saw everything on the map. There were far fewer caves, far fewer nooks and crannies. Far fewer hidden things to discover.

Far fewer ways to get lose yourself.

I can lose myself for far longer in the canopy over Verdent brink along, than in any area of EotN. Maybe you and I have different memories of it, but I’ve been back their recently and I don’t see this exploring people are talking about.

There were definitely a couple of maps in Guild Wars 1 that did better than others in that regard, but for each of those complex maps, there were maps like the ones in Diessa which were essentially linear mazes you had to walk through to get to the next gate.

The complexity wasn’t in exploring. It was in figuring out which log you could get around.

In GW1, through exploration, I could discover entire (instanced) cities/towns that I did not know existed prior to the discovery. One of my favorite parts of the game, discovering new locations with new adventures.

Ephemiel.5694:

Raziel.4216:

Ephemiel.5694:

I couldn’t stop laughing when someone here used waypoints, vistas and points of interest as “content”.

Btw, there’s certain people here who will ALWAYS kiss Anet’s kitten , Raziel and Vayne are two of them.

And we couldn’t stop laughing when you posted this after he already clarified that it’s simply an exploration aspect, just like GW1 landmarks.
Keep it up! And calling names makes everyone take your posts more seriously

Feel free to provide objective evidence that backs up the “EoTN had a lot more stuff!” position and I’ll support that immediately, I rather follow reality instead of my own bellyfeelings.

Must be nice when “reality” is made up by your own opinions as you’ve both proven before.

Oh really now? He has chart of solid numbers up for compare , what’s “opinion” about that?

Raziel.4216:

BrotherBelial.3094:

Most of those numbers make me laugh. WP, POI and vistas hardlyare things to find. How many POI’s are really interesting?last time I found an interesting POI was when I found what was left of GW1 LA, or ToA in Godlost swamp.

And how is that relevant? he’s comparing the exploration aspects of the game, were you amazed at every landmark in GW1? no, but they still count.

BrotherBelial.3094:

Traits yeah half the time I end up having to use traits I don’t want to use with this new system. GW1 system gave you far more choice.

EoTN had less active skills and you can’t possibly claim that adding stat points was “more choice” than choosing traits.
Still, numbers don’t lie and EoTN is far behind, the objective evidence is not on your side.

BrotherBelial.3094:

Skins, yeah EoTN reskined some armor, I’m sure.if we looked closely to the skins in GW2 we would find most where reskins also. Nothing hing wrong with that, but me personally most of the new skins in HoT are not great at all. Exalted are probably the best looking.

Noone claimed GW2 had no re-skins, the guy was comparing both games, without removing re-skins and HoT is still ahead.

To be honest, I was comparing content. Seeing someone compare points of interest to entire dungeons and give them the same weighting in regards to content put me in such a state of disbelief that I didn’t even know where to begin addressing it. Points of interest aren’t exploration. They’re the exact opposite of exploration. There’s no real sense of discovery or exploration if you’re just following a checklist of dots on your map.

Points of interest are filler garbage for people who need to be handheld through exploration rather than being willing to do it on their own. It’s the NPE of exploration. They are not content. The fact that anybody would try and include points of interest in a round-up of game content for a comparison suggests to me that they know Guild Wars 2 and HoT are content light and are trying to artificially bulk up the numbers.

Although, maybe that’s the answer to complaints that HoT is content light. Just add sixty new points of interest to each map. So much new content! Two-hundred and forty new points of interest. There’s your endgame right there.

Tapioca.9062:

To be honest, I was comparing content. Seeing someone compare points of interest to entire dungeons and give them the same weighting in regards to content put me in such a state of disbelief that I didn’t even know where to begin addressing it. Points of interest aren’t exploration. They’re the exact opposite of exploration. There’s no real sense of discovery or exploration if you’re just following a checklist of dots on your map.

Points of interest are filler garbage for people who need to be handheld through exploration rather than being willing to do it on their own. It’s the NPE of exploration. They are not content. The fact that anybody would try and include points of interest in a round-up of game content for a comparison suggests to me that they know Guild Wars 2 and HoT are content light and are trying to artificially bulk up the numbers.

POIs and GW1 landmarks are the only way we can meassure how much exploring there is in each game’s respective terms, there’s no way around it if we want to stay objective and avoid going down the bellyfeelings road.
The post comparing numbers avoids this -what counts and what doesn’t count issue- because there’s no objective way to determine what counts and what doesn’t.
You don’t think POIs count, well I don’t think GW1 dungeons count because they were (mostly) dead. Someone else probably doesn’t want vistas to count, but someone wants’em in. The only viable solution is to count all, and it doesn’t look good for the “EoTN was so much more!” crowd when we sum everything up.
If we count what each expansion added to the game HoT brought more, not because I think so or X person said so, the objetive evidence points in that direction.
Everyone’s free to say they liked the EoTN content more, but claims like the original “it blew HoT out of the water” content-wise can’t hold their ground.

Tapioca.9062:

Seeing someone compare points of interest to entire dungeons and give them the same weighting in regards to content put me in such a state of disbelief that I didn’t even know where to begin addressing it.

People have reading comprehension problems I guess, maybe English isn’t your first language but I clearly stated “dungeon entrances” which are indeed things you have to FIND and EXPLORE on the map in order to enter those dungeons.

Tapioca.9062:

Although, maybe that’s the answer to complaints that HoT is content light. Just add sixty new points of interest to each map. So much new content! Two-hundred and forty new points of interest. There’s your endgame right there.

And you know that’s similar to what GW1 did. Hey let’s add hundreds of new skills nobody will ever use because they are useless and say the game has lots of skills!

Raziel.4216:

BrotherBelial.3094:

Raziel.4216:

BrotherBelial.3094:

Most of those numbers make me laugh. WP, POI and vistas hardlyare things to find. How many POI’s are really interesting?last time I found an interesting POI was when I found what was left of GW1 LA, or ToA in Godlost swamp.

And how is that relevant? he’s comparing the exploration aspects of the game, were you amazed at every landmark in GW1? no, but they still count.

BrotherBelial.3094:

Traits yeah half the time I end up having to use traits I don’t want to use with this new system. GW1 system gave you far more choice.

EoTN had less active skills and you can’t possibly claim that adding stat points was “more choice” than choosing traits.
Still, numbers don’t lie and GW1 is far behind, the objective evidence is not on your side.

BrotherBelial.3094:

Skins, yeah EoTN reskined some armor, I’m sure.if we looked closely to the skins in GW2 we would find most where reskins also. Nothing hing wrong with that, but me personally most of the new skins in HoT are not great at all. Exalted are probably the best looking.

Noone claimed GW2 had no re-skins, the guy was comparing both games, without removing re-skins and HoT is still ahead.

Yeah your a HoT fan boy, I can see. Numbers are irrelevant when it comes to having fun or not. You can throw all the numbers you want, fact is, a vast amount of people are unhappy with what HoT delivered. I still think EoTN was a better game. HoT has a good story, that about it for me.

Calling those who don’t agree with you fanboys makes it less likely for anyone to take you seriously.
Numbers are relevant when people claim one expansion added a lot more content, numbers demonstrate if that’s true or not. The objective evidence is not on your side, feel free to provide some that favors your point, or simply accept that -dramatic pause- reality doesn’t agree with you.
It’s either numbers or everyone’s bellyfeelings, I’ll stick to numbers.

Ok you want numbers, ANet claimed the maps would have 3 distinct biomes, they don’t. Lets look at VB, just incase they where only talking about that map.

You have the jungle floor, you have bits of canopy that you can only get to at night. The roots are non existent save for a few holes where HP are hiding. So the 4 maps they offer are not what they claimed, so that’s less content than they said we would get.on that map.

AB, most of the map taken up by the city, which only has the octovine event happen in it, unless you have the mastery line for the tarnished traitor. This map is also really a single biome.map. As you can only gt to the underground bit one the meta is complete.

TD, now this map has 2 biomes, though the jungle floor is a lot smaller than the underground and broken up by massive holes and mountain’s. But again, no 3rd.

DS, again really a single level map. Sure you can climb up thing and go under parts, you can do that in DHC in the core game, as well as MM. By what we have seen in HoT we should say those maps have 2 biomes.

So.as I said, EoTN was better, it delivered more maps, fact. We could go down the lines or the HoT maps are bigger, but the simple fact is they feel a lot.more like GW1 maps where you have to go in the direction the map forces you, once you unlock the right masteries you is less of a factor.

Eye of the.north added more sets of armor, yes GW2 has to put a lot more work in to there armor as we have 5 races, and we could count each races set as a unique set, but really we are just telling our self’s lies.

EoTN had a longer story. Sure we could say that the story of HoT is not finished, as we know at some point next year we will get the next part of the living story. But I don’t see that as part of HoT’s price tag, that is content for player retention. Every mmo adds content to keep there players. People saying we payed for a season pass are trying to justify the cost of HoT to them self’s. It’s why I’ve stopped buying single player games at launch. These days game get so much DLC added to them, that the initial coat of the game is not worth it, better off waiting for a game of the year, or complete collection, or a good steam sale. But I’m getting off track. HoT story was good, but short.

Weapon skins, 5 sets plus how ever many individual skins, (I’m not including guild items in this as not every player will have access or want to be in a massive guild) EoTH and HoT are probably on par with this. Though HoT will probably take this one by the fact we have more weapons in GW2 than we did in GW1.

I could go on, but I don’t want to wast anymore time on this, you have your views and you believe you are correct and I’m wrong, I feel nothing anyone says or arguments people put forward, you will stand by ANet. That’s your right to do so, and I can respect that.

maddoctor.2738:

Tapioca.9062:

Although, maybe that’s the answer to complaints that HoT is content light. Just add sixty new points of interest to each map. So much new content! Two-hundred and forty new points of interest. There’s your endgame right there.

And you know that’s similar to what GW1 did. Hey let’s add hundreds of new skills nobody will ever use because they are useless and say the game has lots of skills!

Na, the skills where not useless, some where just a lot better than others, same with traits, some are so much better than others why would you take them? So dose that make them worthless? So should we not count them? They are there, but never used, so they don’t count.

maddoctor.2738:

Tapioca.9062:

Although, maybe that’s the answer to complaints that HoT is content light. Just add sixty new points of interest to each map. So much new content! Two-hundred and forty new points of interest. There’s your endgame right there.

And you know that’s similar to what GW1 did. Hey let’s add hundreds of new skills nobody will ever use because they are useless and say the game has lots of skills!

The majority of GW1 skills were useful… just a number of them were situational. The GW wiki used to have little icons to mark which skills were actually garbage. Such skills didn’t necessarily remain considered garbage as at any time a viable build could have been found to utilize the skill.
Skills that truly did stink always had the possibility of seeing a game update change the functionality of the skill bringing it back into interest.