Feedback: Dragon Hunter [merged]
It’s awful. The bow looks promising, but the traps are based on terrible mechanics and are just another source of area denial, which we absolutely did not need over mobile damage sources. The traitline has no synergy with any of our existing traits. What the hell is the point of giving us extra damage against crippled enemies when the only source of cripple we have is with the new bow? Why do we have a trait that increases our damage from > 600 range if the majority of our weapons are melee? And why do we have a trait that inflicts cripple on knockback if the only reliable way to proc it is from a different bow trait (or the use of the very underwhelming shield)?
The traits you listed are meant to enhance the elite spec itself, which is to be expected. I don’t see what’s wrong about that. Also, bow’s barrage can knockback on target’s movement. The shield being underwhelming is also not DH’s fault.
Isn’t the goal of the specialization to enhance the base class though? What’s the point of using anything not related to the spec if there’s no synergy? It just makes the entire class completely divisive; you can either be a Guardian or a DH, but don’t bother trying to be both because building for one side of the equation only removes opportunities from the other side. It’s stupid and it’s counterintuitive. With the Chronomancer, interrupt builds are going to be more powerful than ever. With the Reaper, Terrormancer is going to be crazy with damage inflicted with chill, which is guaranteed alongside the fear that already does crazy damage. With DH, there’s no reason to take it unless you plan on using the longbow. It doesn’t work with anything else.
And no, the shield’s status is not related to the new spec. But it serves to reinforce my point that a trait that procs on knockback is not very useful on a Guardian.
no they arent actually supposed to enhance the base class, they are to offer a different playstyle within the theme/ability set of the base class.
reaper is essentially, what if you had a more martial necromancer.
DH is a more long ranger/hunter type guardian
chronomancer is a more support focused mesmerthey will all likely provide fairly different playstyles, not upgrades to the class. The primary focus is expanding the way you play the game, not the powers/flaws of the class.
take for example engineer, no weapon swap means he is basically at his base a meleer, new utilities basically alter their f1-f5 skills into what will likely be very different style than they usually have.
think alternate mini class rather than buffed up main class
If it’s supposed to fit the theme and ability set of the current class, then why does the Dragonhunter feel like a 100% departure from what we have with the Guardian right now? None of the traits carry over between the two, and the “theme” is a complete 180 from what we’ve come to expect from the Guardian.
It’s awful. The bow looks promising, but the traps are based on terrible mechanics and are just another source of area denial, which we absolutely did not need over mobile damage sources. The traitline has no synergy with any of our existing traits. What the hell is the point of giving us extra damage against crippled enemies when the only source of cripple we have is with the new bow? Why do we have a trait that increases our damage from > 600 range if the majority of our weapons are melee? And why do we have a trait that inflicts cripple on knockback if the only reliable way to proc it is from a different bow trait (or the use of the very underwhelming shield)?
The traits you listed are meant to enhance the elite spec itself, which is to be expected. I don’t see what’s wrong about that. Also, bow’s barrage can knockback on target’s movement. The shield being underwhelming is also not DH’s fault.
Isn’t the goal of the specialization to enhance the base class though? What’s the point of using anything not related to the spec if there’s no synergy? It just makes the entire class completely divisive; you can either be a Guardian or a DH, but don’t bother trying to be both because building for one side of the equation only removes opportunities from the other side. It’s stupid and it’s counterintuitive. With the Chronomancer, interrupt builds are going to be more powerful than ever. With the Reaper, Terrormancer is going to be crazy with damage inflicted with chill, which is guaranteed alongside the fear that already does crazy damage. With DH, there’s no reason to take it unless you plan on using the longbow. It doesn’t work with anything else.
And no, the shield’s status is not related to the new spec. But it serves to reinforce my point that a trait that procs on knockback is not very useful on a Guardian.
no they arent actually supposed to enhance the base class, they are to offer a different playstyle within the theme/ability set of the base class.
reaper is essentially, what if you had a more martial necromancer.
DH is a more long ranger/hunter type guardian
chronomancer is a more support focused mesmerthey will all likely provide fairly different playstyles, not upgrades to the class. The primary focus is expanding the way you play the game, not the powers/flaws of the class.
take for example engineer, no weapon swap means he is basically at his base a meleer, new utilities basically alter their f1-f5 skills into what will likely be very different style than they usually have.
think alternate mini class rather than buffed up main class
If it’s supposed to fit the theme and ability set of the current class, then why does the Dragonhunter feel like a 100% departure from what we have with the Guardian right now? None of the traits carry over between the two, and the “theme” is a complete 180 from what we’ve come to expect from the Guardian.
what traits dont carry over? you realize all the virtue traits still work on the new virtues right? The theme of guardian is lightwielding supporter/smiter that theme is still intact.
i mean, it isnt a frontline player, but necro wasnt a fronline player before either.
(edited by phys.7689)
But it is not “dragon hunter”
what traits dont carry over? you realize all the virtue traits still work on the new virtues right? The theme of guardian is lightwielding supporter/smiter that theme is still intact.
i mean, it isnt a frontline player, but necro wasnt a fronline player before either.
VoJ and VoC will no longer affect allies when activated, and VoR will have 1/5 the radius it has now, and at least two of those three will now have a cast time while the current iterations do not. So at best, you’ll be able to clear 3 conditions from allies within a 240 radius if you manage to leap to them (if you haven’t used it already as a gap closer/immobilize) before they move out of that radius. Do you know how big a 240 radius is? It’s the size of a traited symbol. Not really a great AoE size for an allied support skill.
So yes, in the few instances where existing traits DO carry over, it becomes even more of a problem because they end up conflicting with the new mechanics instead of working together with them. Terrific.
(edited by Black Box.9312)
what traits dont carry over? you realize all the virtue traits still work on the new virtues right? The theme of guardian is lightwielding supporter/smiter that theme is still intact.
i mean, it isnt a frontline player, but necro wasnt a fronline player before either.
VoJ and VoC will no longer affect allies when activated, and VoR will have 1/5 the radius it has now, and at least two of those three will now have a cast time while the current iterations do not. So at best, you’ll be able to clear 3 conditions from allies within a 240 radius if you manage to leap to them (if you haven’t used it already as a gap closer/immobilize) before they move out of that radius. Do you know how big a 240 radius is? It’s the size of a traited symbol. Not really a great AoE size for an allied support skill.
So yes, in the few instances where existing traits DO carry over, it becomes even more of a problem because they end up conflicting with the new mechanics instead of working together with them. Terrific.
they said all traits will carry over, so it will likely just proc an pbaoe effect when you use it.
keep in mind this is not supposed to be straight up buff, its a different way of playing. A long ranged guardian would always have had the same problem you are talking about, only they would have less tools to deal with it.
(edited by phys.7689)
The theme of guardian is lightwielding supporter/smiter that theme is still intact.
lolno.
i mean, it isnt a frontline player, but necro wasnt a fronline player before either.
It isn’t frontline or backline really. Speccing into dragonhunter heavily damages a guardian’s ability to support from the backline by changing their virtues. Their new virtues work better at close-range, and are generally much weaker supportively. Yet their longbow encourages them to stay at long-range (while providing virtually no support), and their traps can’t be ground-targeted (which, again, offer virtually no support) which encourages one to be closer to the action. So I don’t know what the spec is supposed to be or under which range it’s supposed to function, and the devs don’t seem to even know what role it’s supposed to be filling. Backline support? Please.
(edited by Fashion Mage.3712)
The theme of guardian is lightwielding supporter/smiter that theme is still intact.
lolno.
i mean, it isnt a frontline player, but necro wasnt a fronline player before either.
It isn’t frontline or backline really. Speccing into dragonhunter heavily damages a guardian’s ability to support from the backline by changing their virtues. Their new virtues work better at close-range, and are generally much weaker supportively. Yet their longbow encourages them to stay at long-range (while providing virtually no support), and their traps can’t be ground-targeted (which, again, offer virtually no support) which encourages one to be closer to the action. So I don’t know what the spec is supposed to be or under which range it’s supposed to function, and the devs don’t seem to even know what role it’s supposed to be filling. Backline support? Please.
its looks like its supposed to go in and out of melee rng, as far as backline support, you got a long range light field with two 100% finishers for condi removal, light field itself
you got a lockdown area skill
you got projectile destruction+blind
long range vigor
targeted heal leap
that seems like some of the better support from long range
fragment of faith seems fairly useful to me (5 aegises)
blind heal trap
as for the range, think they are supposed to be going in, and out of melee combat, using their aegis/mitigation effects to place traps, remember there is a weapon swap for a reason, they arent like longbow rng who wants to be as far from you as possible, they are durable, they mostly use the rng so you cant escape, and to set up profitable lines of attack.
they arent most effecient at 1200 range, unless they have prepared the area with traps.
its looks like its supposed to go in and out of melee rng, as far as backline support, you got a long range light field with two 100% finishers for condi removal, light field itself
you got a lockdown area skill
you got projectile destruction+blind
long range vigor
targeted heal leap
that seems like some of the better support from long rangefragment of faith seems fairly useful to me (5 aegises)
blind heal trap
Ranged supportive abilities without some sort of large hitbox, large AoE, or bounce are typically impractical. This goes for light projectile finishers too, as far as I’m aware (does a light projectile finisher have an AoE?).
lockdown -> control. There’s a difference between control and support.
Using deflecting shot to protect allies is impractical (not that a barrier that short would be useful even if you did have perfect ping, and godly timing and aiming).
Long range vigor is the one practical, supportive thing on the longbow.
Wings of Resolve is a 600 range leap, not exactly backline. Supportively, it pales in comparison to Virtue of Resolve.
Blind heal trap only heals the user. Not that a single blind is impressive for something that’s supposedly supportive.
Sorry, but the longbow is not supportive. If you want to see something that has the potential to be supportive from a backline position you can look at the guardian’s staff (somewhat), tome of courage (this is the perfect example), consecrations, staff ele’s water attunement, chronomancers, etc.
(edited by Fashion Mage.3712)
The theme of guardian is lightwielding supporter/smiter that theme is still intact.
lolno.
i mean, it isnt a frontline player, but necro wasnt a fronline player before either.
It isn’t frontline or backline really. Speccing into dragonhunter heavily damages a guardian’s ability to support from the backline by changing their virtues. Their new virtues work better at close-range, and are generally much weaker supportively. Yet their longbow encourages them to stay at long-range (while providing virtually no support), and their traps can’t be ground-targeted (which, again, offer virtually no support) which encourages one to be closer to the action. So I don’t know what the spec is supposed to be or under which range it’s supposed to function, and the devs don’t seem to even know what role it’s supposed to be filling. Backline support? Please.
its looks like its supposed to go in and out of melee rng, as far as backline support, you got a long range light field with two 100% finishers for condi removal, light field itself
you got a lockdown area skill
you got projectile destruction+blind
long range vigor
targeted heal leap
that seems like some of the better support from long rangefragment of faith seems fairly useful to me (5 aegises)
blind heal trapas for the range, think they are supposed to be going in, and out of melee combat, using their aegis/mitigation effects to place traps, remember there is a weapon swap for a reason, they arent like longbow rng who wants to be as far from you as possible, they are durable, they mostly use the rng so you cant escape, and to set up profitable lines of attack.
they arent most effecient at 1200 range, unless they have prepared the area with traps.
1. Don’t kid yourself. Deflecting Shot will never be useful as a support skill in its current iteration. The effect would have to linger for at least 3 seconds for it to work as anything other than a means to block about half of a Ranger’s Rapid Fire.
2. Again, the VoR leap will heal for 1/5 of the current radius. Not much point when you can reach a longer range with the current VoR without having a cast time. Not good for support.
3. Traps are even less reliable as support than they are as an offensive utility. Having to rely on the enemy running over a spot of land in order for you to support your allies is completely counterproductive. Why wait for them to trigger an aegis trap when I can just use Retreat to give my allies aegis instantly? Why wait for the enemy to run over my trap to heal me when I can just use Shelter to block and heal without having to worry about when the heal will proc? It’s just very poor design.
4. If we’re meant to switch in and out of melee and ranged combat, then why are we getting a trait to increase damage only when we’re more than 600 units away from the target? Why do neither the longbow nor the traps feature an effective gap closer for that distance? Why should we have to use our HEAL virtue just to close a gap once every 60 seconds, especially if it ends up reducing our damage output anyway? And why can’t we ground target our traps so that we don’t have to be so close to the enemy and lose that extra damage just to USE them?
It’s pretty obvious if you read into it that the Dragonhunter is meant to focus exclusively on the longbow or traps, which ironically counteract each other in the first place. Guardian players wanted ranged combat as an addition to our current tools and utilities, not as a replacement. This spec was just poorly designed from the ground up.
(edited by Black Box.9312)
The theme of guardian is lightwielding supporter/smiter that theme is still intact.
lolno.
i mean, it isnt a frontline player, but necro wasnt a fronline player before either.
It isn’t frontline or backline really. Speccing into dragonhunter heavily damages a guardian’s ability to support from the backline by changing their virtues. Their new virtues work better at close-range, and are generally much weaker supportively. Yet their longbow encourages them to stay at long-range (while providing virtually no support), and their traps can’t be ground-targeted (which, again, offer virtually no support) which encourages one to be closer to the action. So I don’t know what the spec is supposed to be or under which range it’s supposed to function, and the devs don’t seem to even know what role it’s supposed to be filling. Backline support? Please.
its looks like its supposed to go in and out of melee rng, as far as backline support, you got a long range light field with two 100% finishers for condi removal, light field itself
you got a lockdown area skill
you got projectile destruction+blind
long range vigor
targeted heal leap
that seems like some of the better support from long rangefragment of faith seems fairly useful to me (5 aegises)
blind heal trapas for the range, think they are supposed to be going in, and out of melee combat, using their aegis/mitigation effects to place traps, remember there is a weapon swap for a reason, they arent like longbow rng who wants to be as far from you as possible, they are durable, they mostly use the rng so you cant escape, and to set up profitable lines of attack.
they arent most effecient at 1200 range, unless they have prepared the area with traps.
1. Don’t kid yourself. Deflecting Shot will never be useful as a support skill in its current iteration. The effect would have to linger for at least 3 seconds for it to work as anything other than a means to block about half of a Ranger’s Rapid Fire.
2. Again, the VoR leap will heal for 1/5 of the current radius. Not much point when you can reach a longer range with the current VoR without having a cast time. Not good for support.
3. Traps are even less reliable as support than they are as an offensive utility. Having to rely on the enemy running over a spot of land in order for you to support your allies is completely counterproductive. Why wait for them to trigger an aegis trap when I can just use Retreat to give my allies aegis instantly? Why wait for the enemy to run over my trap to heal me when I can just use Shelter to block and heal without having to worry about when the heal will proc? It’s just very poor design.
4. If we’re meant to switch in and out of melee and ranged combat, then why are we getting a trait to increase damage only when we’re more than 600 units away from the target? Why do neither the longbow nor the traps feature an effective gap closer for that distance? Why should we have to use our HEAL virtue just to close a gap once every 60 seconds, especially if it ends up reducing our damage output anyway? And why can’t we ground target our traps so that we don’t have to be so close to the enemy and lose that extra damage just to USE them?
It’s pretty obvious if you read into it that the Dragonhunter is meant to focus exclusively on the longbow or traps, which ironically counteract each other in the first place. Guardian players wanted ranged combat as an addition to our current tools and utilities, not as a replacement. This spec was just poorly designed from the ground up.
I agree. But maybe the support traps could be instead considered as “consecrations” or “symbols” and be triggered when they are used and only the offensives one as traps ?
Actually I believe the main issue is that people are viewing Specializations as something that is supposed to be as the OP states “logical extension of the flavor and theme of the Guardian.”
That’s the biggest mistake I think everyone is making.
Elite Specializations are designed to be horizontal progression, not vertical. We’re taking a piece of our main profession and specializing further into that aspect.
Chronomancers -> Mesmers who decided to focus more on the time aspect of their profession (which admittedly was pretty sparse to begin with).
Reapers -> Necromancers who decided to focus more on being as powerful as Death itself.
Dragonhunters -> Guardians who decided to focus more on zealous justice.
These are all just one piece of each profession that is being extended, the 2nd Elite specializations for these professions will then delve into another facet of the base profession.
A future elite spec for each could be:
Mesmer -> Some kind of mage-thief that focuses more on its stealth aspects.
Necromancer -> A Demonologist-ish kind of summoner with more focus on minions.
Guardian -> Cleric-ish boon giver/supporter with more focus on tomes.
OP is clearly one of the many that think Elite specs are supposted to be vertical progression but they aren’t. They’re just another choice to play the profession in a different way, a more focused (specialized) role.
We can even use the Druid as an example. It is not the total encompassing progression of what a Ranger is, it is just an extension of the Nature Magic part of the Ranger.
Yes but those focus their whole theme on one thing. Guardians by themselves have nothing to do with hunting, dragons or hunting dragons.
Mesmers have time magic thus Chronomancer.
Rangers have nature magic thus Druid.
Guardians have 0 relation to hunting or dragons which is why it makes no sense.
As phys has pointed out, the playstyle of the DH is to switch back and forth between melee and range, heck they even show this on the Ready-Up with the build from Tirzah.
It’s not supposed to be staying at range like a Ranger with a longbow, that’s the entire point of introducing a new playstyle but having a different flavor to it.
Reapers become melee fighters like Warriors/Guardians but the Reaper’s playstyle is different enough from both as well.
Guardians have zeal and/or can be zealous. Thus some focus on that and turn into Dragonhunters.
Remember, Dragonhunters are basically Witchhunters, everything makes a lot more sense if people stop being so literal with the name which is where most of the issue is coming from.
and where do they get the mobility to consistently switch between melee and range? A 60 second cooldown 600 range leap? According to the devs and the ready up, DH is “a big game hunter that specializes in ranged combat and back line support”.
Remember, Dragonhunters are basically Witchhunters, everything makes a lot more sense if people stop being so literal with the name which is where most of the issue is coming from.
I don’t recall any kind of witchhunters using traps in particular, nor do they hunt “big game”.
(edited by Fashion Mage.3712)
Actually I believe the main issue is that people are viewing Specializations as something that is supposed to be as the OP states “logical extension of the flavor and theme of the Guardian.”
That’s the biggest mistake I think everyone is making.
Elite Specializations are designed to be horizontal progression, not vertical. We’re taking a piece of our main profession and specializing further into that aspect.
Chronomancers -> Mesmers who decided to focus more on the time aspect of their profession (which admittedly was pretty sparse to begin with).
Reapers -> Necromancers who decided to focus more on being as powerful as Death itself.
Dragonhunters -> Guardians who decided to focus more on zealous justice.
These are all just one piece of each profession that is being extended, the 2nd Elite specializations for these professions will then delve into another facet of the base profession.
A future elite spec for each could be:
Mesmer -> Some kind of mage-thief that focuses more on its stealth aspects.
Necromancer -> A Demonologist-ish kind of summoner with more focus on minions.
Guardian -> Cleric-ish boon giver/supporter with more focus on tomes.
OP is clearly one of the many that think Elite specs are supposted to be vertical progression but they aren’t. They’re just another choice to play the profession in a different way, a more focused (specialized) role.
We can even use the Druid as an example. It is not the total encompassing progression of what a Ranger is, it is just an extension of the Nature Magic part of the Ranger.
Yes but those focus their whole theme on one thing. Guardians by themselves have nothing to do with hunting, dragons or hunting dragons.
Mesmers have time magic thus Chronomancer.
Rangers have nature magic thus Druid.
Guardians have 0 relation to hunting or dragons which is why it makes no sense.As phys has pointed out, the playstyle of the DH is to switch back and forth between melee and range, heck they even show this on the Ready-Up with the build from Tirzah.
It’s not supposed to be staying at range like a Ranger with a longbow, that’s the entire point of introducing a new playstyle but having a different flavor to it.
Reapers become melee fighters like Warriors/Guardians but the Reaper’s playstyle is different enough from both as well.
Guardians have zeal and/or can be zealous. Thus some focus on that and turn into Dragonhunters.
Remember, Dragonhunters are basically Witchhunters, everything makes a lot more sense if people stop being so literal with the name which is where most of the issue is coming from.
Actually, there’s quite a few people that simply don’t like the name. Why people feel like they have to put some logical explanation behind that is beyond me, but don’t confuse someones explanation as to why they don’t’ like the name with their simple preference. Whether people are being literal or not…they don’t like it. It seems that the Reaper and Druid and Chronomancer are far more liked then DH. It’s as simple as that.
Whether its because they can’t see their Guardian as a DragonHunter, or they have conflicts with what Hunter means/is/is described as, or whether or not they find the theme moving in the wrong direction….This is a game where 90% of what we do revolves around personal preference. and it seems like a lot of people personally prefer to not be called Dragon Hunter.
I personally will be referring to my Guardian as a DH Guard if this name goes through…I really don’t like the concept.
and where do they get the mobility to consistently switch between melee and range? A 60 second cooldown 600 range leap? According to the devs and the ready up, DH is “a big game hunter that specializes in ranged combat and back line support”.
Remember, Dragonhunters are basically Witchhunters, everything makes a lot more sense if people stop being so literal with the name which is where most of the issue is coming from.
I don’t recall any kind of witchhunters using traps in particular, nor do they hunt “big game”.
the witch hunter mythos often has them use traps and devices, because in those time periods science and trickery was the only way you would catch a magic witch
you guys keep forgeting, you have a weapon swap. with gap closers, and mid range attacks. Many utilities also work from 600, you have a teleport utility. Stop thinking of the elite as upgrade to the base class, and realize it is SUPPOSED to play different, feel different, and interact different.
you basically are trying to be around 700-500 range normally, and go further or closer as the need arises.
i think they could change some stuff, faster leap recast, perhaps a better means of creating distance or combat swiftness.
cooler charachter animations would hurt, but eh its a bow, and new animations are a rarity
I don’t want it to be an upgrade, I just think its design couldn’t be more bland and messy.
Actually I believe the main issue is that people are viewing Specializations as something that is supposed to be as the OP states “logical extension of the flavor and theme of the Guardian.”
That’s the biggest mistake I think everyone is making.
Elite Specializations are designed to be horizontal progression, not vertical. We’re taking a piece of our main profession and specializing further into that aspect.
Chronomancers -> Mesmers who decided to focus more on the time aspect of their profession (which admittedly was pretty sparse to begin with).
Reapers -> Necromancers who decided to focus more on being as powerful as Death itself.
Dragonhunters -> Guardians who decided to focus more on zealous justice.
These are all just one piece of each profession that is being extended, the 2nd Elite specializations for these professions will then delve into another facet of the base profession.
A future elite spec for each could be:
Mesmer -> Some kind of mage-thief that focuses more on its stealth aspects.
Necromancer -> A Demonologist-ish kind of summoner with more focus on minions.
Guardian -> Cleric-ish boon giver/supporter with more focus on tomes.
OP is clearly one of the many that think Elite specs are supposted to be vertical progression but they aren’t. They’re just another choice to play the profession in a different way, a more focused (specialized) role.
We can even use the Druid as an example. It is not the total encompassing progression of what a Ranger is, it is just an extension of the Nature Magic part of the Ranger.
Yes but those focus their whole theme on one thing. Guardians by themselves have nothing to do with hunting, dragons or hunting dragons.
Mesmers have time magic thus Chronomancer.
Rangers have nature magic thus Druid.
Guardians have 0 relation to hunting or dragons which is why it makes no sense.As phys has pointed out, the playstyle of the DH is to switch back and forth between melee and range, heck they even show this on the Ready-Up with the build from Tirzah.
It’s not supposed to be staying at range like a Ranger with a longbow, that’s the entire point of introducing a new playstyle but having a different flavor to it.
Reapers become melee fighters like Warriors/Guardians but the Reaper’s playstyle is different enough from both as well.
Guardians have zeal and/or can be zealous. Thus some focus on that and turn into Dragonhunters.
Remember, Dragonhunters are basically Witchhunters, everything makes a lot more sense if people stop being so literal with the name which is where most of the issue is coming from.
If we’re supposed to use this spec to alternate between ranged and melee combat, then why is the new spec focused exclusively on traits meant for the longbow? Why are we not getting more adequate gap closers/openers? Why are we getting traps, which are just about the worst utility type to be using while you’re on the move?
Also, people are being literal with the name because Anet planted that seed in their heads with the idea of the spec centered around being a “big game hunter”. Jon’s attempt at justification only ended up serving as more proof that they can’t maintain any sort of consistency with this spec.
Actually I believe the main issue is that people are viewing Specializations as something that is supposed to be as the OP states “logical extension of the flavor and theme of the Guardian.”
That’s the biggest mistake I think everyone is making.
Elite Specializations are designed to be horizontal progression, not vertical. We’re taking a piece of our main profession and specializing further into that aspect.
Chronomancers -> Mesmers who decided to focus more on the time aspect of their profession (which admittedly was pretty sparse to begin with).
Reapers -> Necromancers who decided to focus more on being as powerful as Death itself.
Dragonhunters -> Guardians who decided to focus more on zealous justice.
These are all just one piece of each profession that is being extended, the 2nd Elite specializations for these professions will then delve into another facet of the base profession.
A future elite spec for each could be:
Mesmer -> Some kind of mage-thief that focuses more on its stealth aspects.
Necromancer -> A Demonologist-ish kind of summoner with more focus on minions.
Guardian -> Cleric-ish boon giver/supporter with more focus on tomes.
OP is clearly one of the many that think Elite specs are supposted to be vertical progression but they aren’t. They’re just another choice to play the profession in a different way, a more focused (specialized) role.
We can even use the Druid as an example. It is not the total encompassing progression of what a Ranger is, it is just an extension of the Nature Magic part of the Ranger.
Yes but those focus their whole theme on one thing. Guardians by themselves have nothing to do with hunting, dragons or hunting dragons.
Mesmers have time magic thus Chronomancer.
Rangers have nature magic thus Druid.
Guardians have 0 relation to hunting or dragons which is why it makes no sense.As phys has pointed out, the playstyle of the DH is to switch back and forth between melee and range, heck they even show this on the Ready-Up with the build from Tirzah.
It’s not supposed to be staying at range like a Ranger with a longbow, that’s the entire point of introducing a new playstyle but having a different flavor to it.
Reapers become melee fighters like Warriors/Guardians but the Reaper’s playstyle is different enough from both as well.
Guardians have zeal and/or can be zealous. Thus some focus on that and turn into Dragonhunters.
Remember, Dragonhunters are basically Witchhunters, everything makes a lot more sense if people stop being so literal with the name which is where most of the issue is coming from.
If we’re supposed to use this spec to alternate between ranged and melee combat, then why is the new spec focused exclusively on traits meant for the longbow? Why are we not getting more adequate gap closers/openers? Why are we getting traps, which are just about the worst utility type to be using while you’re on the move?
Also, people are being literal with the name because Anet planted that seed in their heads with the idea of the spec centered around being a “big game hunter”. Jon’s attempt at justification only ended up serving as more proof that they can’t maintain any sort of consistency with this spec.
because you spec for the other weapons in the existing lines. Few trailines benefit more than one weapon type.
And traps are not weak for back and forth combat with ranged attacks, if the payoff is right.
take a look at these traps
1 second casting time for fragments of fate, 1.4k dps compared with .760 dps if you were AAing instead. bonus, 5 aegis in the field to use when you wish.
same damage on the cross the line trap, making it worthwhile to cast
better damage than true shot per second on the blade skill.
its actually worth it to teleport right into the enemy, control/cripple them, and make them suffer the penalty with the traps, you are gaining DPS if you do it properly.
Guardian can afford to be in melee for the short times to place these traps.
How you place them and what skills you use with them maximizes your effectiveness.
the warding trap can keep your enemies away, or keep them trapped in an area, your bow 5 can also lock them in place so they have to feel the full force of the traps.
its a playstyle where you have to put together your control, timing, and positioning to get the maximum benefit, which is honestly a really good execution of this style.
the traps are strategy/tactics.
i think im going to have to rename dragon hunter “the cerebral assassin”
(edited by phys.7689)
@funkyfuzz: That’s fine, I’m not talking to those people that just don’t like the name. I’m only meaning people who are literally taking Dragonhunter to mean = person who hunts dragons.
Sometimes names are given just to condense an idea. Witchhunters/Demonhunters, both of these trops are relentless in bringinig down the creature in their titles, wayyy more so than others.
For instance, in Diablo 3, Demons are the main threat to humanity so you could say “Wizards, Monks, Barbarians, etc are all Demonhunters, why is there a specific class called Demonhunter?”
It’s because it carries these tropes: usually zealous, uses traps/devices, ranged combat usually, sometimes even uses creatures own magic against it (Blade is a vampirehunter but is also a vampire himself, just one ex)
Those are just tropes of Witchhunters/Demonhunters, etc. and since Dragons are the major threat to humanity in Tyria, it seems Anet just decided to replace Witch with Dragon.
Again I have no issue with those who just wish it was a different name, I’m just more trying to explain to those who are disliking it just because they don’t understand. There’s a difference, I mean at the end of the day it doesn’t really matter. But I don’t mind doing this in my spare time.
@Black Box: phys explained it really well, so just refer to his reply.
because you spec for the other weapons in the existing lines. Few trailines benefit more than one weapon type.
And traps are not weak for back and forth combat with ranged attacks, if the payoff is right.
take a look at these traps
1 second casting time for fragments of fate, 1.4k dps compared with .760 dps if you were AAing instead. bonus, 5 aegis in the field to use when you wish.
same damage on the cross the line trap, making it worthwhile to cast
better damage than true shot per second on the blade skill.its actually worth it to teleport right into the enemy, control/cripple them, and make them suffer the penalty with the traps, you are gaining DPS if you do it properly.
Guardian can afford to be in melee for the short times to place these traps.How you place them and what skills you use with them maximizes your effectiveness.
the warding trap can keep your enemies away, or keep them trapped in an area, your bow 5 can also lock them in place so they have to feel the full force of the traps.its a playstyle where you have to put together your control, timing, and positioning to get the maximum benefit, which is honestly a really good execution of this style.
the traps are strategy/tactics.i think im going to have to rename dragon hunter “the cerebral assassin”
That doesn’t change the fact that the DH has absolutely no synergy with our base traitlines. Why would I want to take extra damage to crippled enemies and extra damage from more than 600 range if neither of those are applicable to anything else in my loadout? Instead I could trait Zeal, and gain +10% damage to burning foes (which is a condition we actually have universal access to), and Radiance, and improve my burning uptime dramatically so that I’ll have a consistent damage multiplier that doesn’t punish me for using my skills and weapons to their best potential. These elite specs are supposed to enhance the class, and instead of getting an enhancement we’re getting a wannabe ranger that limits you for using anything outside of the elite spec.
because you spec for the other weapons in the existing lines. Few trailines benefit more than one weapon type.
And traps are not weak for back and forth combat with ranged attacks, if the payoff is right.
take a look at these traps
1 second casting time for fragments of fate, 1.4k dps compared with .760 dps if you were AAing instead. bonus, 5 aegis in the field to use when you wish.
same damage on the cross the line trap, making it worthwhile to cast
better damage than true shot per second on the blade skill.its actually worth it to teleport right into the enemy, control/cripple them, and make them suffer the penalty with the traps, you are gaining DPS if you do it properly.
Guardian can afford to be in melee for the short times to place these traps.How you place them and what skills you use with them maximizes your effectiveness.
the warding trap can keep your enemies away, or keep them trapped in an area, your bow 5 can also lock them in place so they have to feel the full force of the traps.its a playstyle where you have to put together your control, timing, and positioning to get the maximum benefit, which is honestly a really good execution of this style.
the traps are strategy/tactics.i think im going to have to rename dragon hunter “the cerebral assassin”
That doesn’t change the fact that the DH has absolutely no synergy with our base traitlines. Why would I want to take extra damage to crippled enemies and extra damage from more than 600 range if neither of those are applicable to anything else in my loadout? Instead I could trait Zeal, and gain +10% damage to burning foes (which is a condition we actually have universal access to), and Radiance, and improve my burning uptime dramatically so that I’ll have a consistent damage multiplier that doesn’t punish me for using my skills and weapons to their best potential. These elite specs are supposed to enhance the class, and instead of getting an enhancement we’re getting a wannabe ranger that limits you for using anything outside of the elite spec.
they are not meant to enhance the class, they are meant to be an alternate playstyle for the class. no specialization is suppose to enhance the class.
you pick 3 specializations based on how you want to play the class, for many playstyles, the elite specialization IS not the best, its not supposed to be.
just like regular specilizations are not best for every loadout. Do i take shadow arts if i dont use stealth much on theif?
what good is weaken targets when you poison them if i have no poison on my loadout?
let me be clear
elite specializations are not power upgrades They are not good for every playstyle and build. this is not the case with any specialization.
DH has a ton of synergy with other specializations, not sure what you are basing that idea on.
(edited by phys.7689)
let me be clear
elite specializations are not power upgrades They are not good for every playstyle and build. this is not the case with any specialization.DH has a ton of synergy with other specializations, not sure what you are basing that idea on.
Phys I think that’s a great point, so many seem to think of only the elite specialization in isolation & not as just another Trait Line that you choose in addition to two Core specializations. And that the main goal of specializations is to introduce playstyles not currently found in the base profession.
That they’re also looking at pushing the boundaries of the base profession theme wise. has me interested.
It’s not supposed to be a power upgrade, but it’s still a ranger wannabe. Unsurprisingly, if I wanted to play a ranger, then I’d play a ranger.
Unsurprisingly since I want to play an Archer/Trapper WITHOUT A BRAINDEAD PET leeching 30% of my DPS and a set of f1-f3 actions that don’t lag out for bad AI, I’m pretty excited.
“You keep saying ‘its unfair.’
I wonder what your basis for comparison is…”
- Jareth, King of Goblins.
I wonder what your basis for comparison is…”
- Jareth, King of Goblins.
It’s not supposed to be a power upgrade, but it’s still a ranger wannabe. Unsurprisingly, if I wanted to play a ranger, then I’d play a ranger.
it doesnt play like ranger.
ranger is a beast master first and foremost
it specializes in constant fast attacks.
its traps are currently designed more for fields/dot/condition
its fairly evasive
is designed to apply a general consistent pressure
DH:
durable
slower more powerful attacks
its traps are designed to control/burst/support
focuses on control.
provides party support/defenses
it controls the battlefield
now, sure you may not want to play that type of class, but its playstyle is fairly different than ranger. And just because you have no interest in it doesnt mean it shouldnt exist.
It doesn’t play exactly the same as a ranger, but it’s trying very hard to. Hence “ranger wannabe”.
Unsurprisingly since I want to play an Archer/Trapper WITHOUT A BRAINDEAD PET leeching 30% of my DPS and a set of f1-f3 actions that don’t lag out for bad AI, I’m pretty excited.
Maybe the ranger specialization should’ve removed or put less emphasis on pets (not that we know what druids can do) instead of making the guardian specialization a ranger wannabe.
The spec has to be thematically linked to guard. At this point dh theme feels like a guard that switched professions . But in reality its just a guard with a slow lb. Both chrono and reaper are thematically linked to their main professions. Hunter has to be linked in game with story, more hunting traits, skill descriptions. Or just scrapped for something more imaginative. From their work on classes in gw2 beta I am sure each will change quiet a lot in beta anyway. So not worried. The only issue for a guard is that its so good baseline.
Spear of Justice has a much more powerful active effect than the core mechanic, ensuring a hardly cleansable (the target must go beyond 900 range to get rid of it) 20s burning damage and 11s burning upkeep (far more than the core active, even in group setting, once Burning stacks in intensity) in every scenario.
In combination with Big Game Hunter, it seems extremely unlikely to outclass this effect through Supreme Justice.
In a similar fashion, Spear of Justice active also pierces by default, making Permeating Wrath far less interesting.
When specced in DH, both traits get diminished to a point where they hardly worth the investment anymore.
We could also take a look at Wrath of Justice (Striking an enemy with Justice’s active effect triggers Signet of Wrath), which is hands down much more reliable with the regular VoJ mechanic.
Fortunately, the PBAoE blind from Justice is Blind is still instant, as it would have been quite useless on a 3/4 second casting time (it also means SoJ will go full CD if interrupted though. Otherwise, we could trigger the PBAoE blind every 4s by cancel casting, which is borderline OP and unlikely to happen). The ability to use it to secure a stomp is completely lost though.
The cross sinergy isn’t exactly better for the remaining virtues.
While the combination between an amazing condi cleanse and a movement skill that can be used as a disengage / gap opener looks interesting for the Longbow DH, Absolute Resolution barely makes any sense for any other DH spec (almost automatically pidgeonholed into Soaring Devastation).
Investing on two powerful but unrelated and hardly synergic improvements for the same long CD skill doesn’t look like a good idea at all.
In a similar fashion, both the stability effect from Indomitable Courage and the protection form Inspired Virtue look far less interesting with the new Shield of Courage effect.
In short, there’s a quite poor cross sinergy between DH and our current virtue related traits (the Virtues traitline gets almost butchered).
This doesn’t mean DH will be useless or underpowered, nor it will leave Guardian in a bad state. The core Guardian is powerful enough and the DH definitely provides a new playsyle through Longbow on top of some convenient damage multipliers and niche trap uses for many PvE builds.
The lack of cross sinergy when compared to Chronomancer and Reaper, however, is still a big problem, specially since DH is the first specialization we get.
It’s basically pointing at a rather uninteresting core class mechanic leaving too little room for creative design, and it can only get worse in the long run, as more specializations are released, if no big changes are performed.
(edited by Vargamonth.2047)
Unsurprisingly since I want to play an Archer/Trapper WITHOUT A BRAINDEAD PET leeching 30% of my DPS and a set of f1-f3 actions that don’t lag out for bad AI, I’m pretty excited.
So basically you are excited that you can play the guardian as if it were the ranger you wanted? Do you not see how that is bad for both guardians and rangers?
Will Hawkins (Human Guardian)
Feryl Grimsteel (Charr Engineer)
Tarnished Coast
Feryl Grimsteel (Charr Engineer)
Tarnished Coast
Unsurprisingly since I want to play an Archer/Trapper WITHOUT A BRAINDEAD PET leeching 30% of my DPS and a set of f1-f3 actions that don’t lag out for bad AI, I’m pretty excited.
So basically you are excited that you can play the guardian as if it were the ranger you wanted? Do you not see how that is bad for both guardians and rangers?
you realize the basic plan for this set of specializations seems to be subclasses, right? most classes will not get something that is similar to how the old class plays, thats the opposite of the point.
reaper is just as far from necromancer, if not farther than dragon hunter is from guardian.
just like you can say DH is a wanna be ranger, they can say reaper is a wanna be warrior. These specs are all supposed to be different, but use existing weapons/skill types, they will all be similar in some respects to something else. They are basically sub proffesions. when they get to specializations with new weapons, perhaps you will see something that is more new, till then, expect these specializations to take something from a class, but use it in a style/playstyle that fits the theme of the class.
So basically you are excited that you can play the guardian as if it were the ranger you wanted? Do you not see how that is bad for both guardians and rangers?
Nope. I don’t. I see it as more open nodes on a spectrum. By definition adding more professions will reduce the space separating them. Blur is inevitable. That one of those new nodes is now closer to my personal tastes than any previous option is a good thing. We tried mightily to get a pet-free Ranger. They didn’t go with it and in fact you can plainly see even the Druid still has a mutt. They chose to fix the Ranger-as-Archer archetype by buffing the holy snot out of the longbow when as a Ranger player I roll shortbow. So if they are hell-bent on not making Ranger workable as an “Archer” I’d play, I’ll take it here, mix-and-match bits from what is far and away my favorite profession and call it “sweet indeed”.
At the end of the day you can’t tell me I’m not happy. That some of us are happy and some aren’t is a GOOD THING because it means they are creating options that are interesting and not just the no-brainer next round of Flavor of the Month superweapons.
“You keep saying ‘its unfair.’
I wonder what your basis for comparison is…”
- Jareth, King of Goblins.
I wonder what your basis for comparison is…”
- Jareth, King of Goblins.
(edited by Nike.2631)
Remember, Dragonhunters are basically Witchhunters, everything makes a lot more sense if people stop being so literal with the name which is where most of the issue is coming from.
Why on earth would be NOT be literal with the name? Dragon Hunting has all of nothing to do with the themes, ideas, or profession of Guardians. It’s a bland name that doesn’t have anything to do with… anything! It’s a name better suited for someone from Destiny’s Edge or a member of the Pact since they’ve… you know, hunted actual dragons? It’s not unique because every. single. player. has hunted dragons.
If Dragonhunters are so similar to Witchhunters, why not just call them witchhunters?
Remember, Dragonhunters are basically Witchhunters, everything makes a lot more sense if people stop being so literal with the name which is where most of the issue is coming from.
Why on earth would be NOT be literal with the name? Dragon Hunting has all of nothing to do with the themes, ideas, or profession of Guardians. It’s a bland name that doesn’t have anything to do with… anything! It’s a name better suited for someone from Destiny’s Edge or a member of the Pact since they’ve… you know, hunted actual dragons? It’s not unique because every. single. player. has hunted dragons.
If Dragonhunters are so similar to Witchhunters, why not just call them witchhunters?
because witches dont exist in tyria, most people use magic and there is nothing sinister about it.
The evil in the world of tyria is dragon related, it has been for the last 250 years.
The guardians who use protection/smiting/warding based light magic to seek, trap, and harry dragon based evil/corruption are called dragon hunters, much like demonhunters or witchhunters.
Remember, Dragonhunters are basically Witchhunters, everything makes a lot more sense if people stop being so literal with the name which is where most of the issue is coming from.
Why on earth would be NOT be literal with the name? Dragon Hunting has all of nothing to do with the themes, ideas, or profession of Guardians. It’s a bland name that doesn’t have anything to do with… anything! It’s a name better suited for someone from Destiny’s Edge or a member of the Pact since they’ve… you know, hunted actual dragons? It’s not unique because every. single. player. has hunted dragons.
If Dragonhunters are so similar to Witchhunters, why not just call them witchhunters?
because witches dont exist in tyria, most people use magic and there is nothing sinister about it.
The evil in the world of tyria is dragon related, it has been for the last 250 years.The guardians who use protection/smiting/warding based light magic to seek, trap, and harry dragon based evil/corruption are called dragon hunters, much like demonhunters or witchhunters.
Well my Elementalist uses fire/water/earth/air magic to seek, trap and harry dragon based evil/corruption, why is he not called Dragonhunter then?
Remember, Dragonhunters are basically Witchhunters, everything makes a lot more sense if people stop being so literal with the name which is where most of the issue is coming from.
Why on earth would be NOT be literal with the name? Dragon Hunting has all of nothing to do with the themes, ideas, or profession of Guardians. It’s a bland name that doesn’t have anything to do with… anything! It’s a name better suited for someone from Destiny’s Edge or a member of the Pact since they’ve… you know, hunted actual dragons? It’s not unique because every. single. player. has hunted dragons.
If Dragonhunters are so similar to Witchhunters, why not just call them witchhunters?
because witches dont exist in tyria, most people use magic and there is nothing sinister about it.
The evil in the world of tyria is dragon related, it has been for the last 250 years.The guardians who use protection/smiting/warding based light magic to seek, trap, and harry dragon based evil/corruption are called dragon hunters, much like demonhunters or witchhunters.
Well my Elementalist uses fire/water/earth/air magic to seek, trap and harry dragon based evil/corruption, why is he not called Dragonhunter then?
because your elementalist did not invent the style it uses for that purpose. Elementalists have been using fire/earth/water/air magic pretty much the same way for the entire history since humans got magic.
Elementalist are also not really hunter like in how they fight, they dont trap things, they blow them up/obliterate them.
The DH is setting traps, setting up profitable positions, it is based on preparation and tactics.
Elementalist is more of a killer than a hunter.
It is the difference between artemis (who tracks and hunts) theme and Zeus ( who murders things with a lightning bolt)
and just to make it clear, i dont say this within the context of the name. You are perfectly free to hate the name in the other thread. My point here is that the reason DH use bows and traps, is because it is a person who uses their guardian abilities to hunt (actually hunt, not just kill) dragon corruption.
In the case of dragon hunter, it is a description, not of the fact they fight dragons/corruption, but rather the way in which they do it.
Remember, Dragonhunters are basically Witchhunters, everything makes a lot more sense if people stop being so literal with the name which is where most of the issue is coming from.
Why on earth would be NOT be literal with the name? Dragon Hunting has all of nothing to do with the themes, ideas, or profession of Guardians. It’s a bland name that doesn’t have anything to do with… anything! It’s a name better suited for someone from Destiny’s Edge or a member of the Pact since they’ve… you know, hunted actual dragons? It’s not unique because every. single. player. has hunted dragons.
If Dragonhunters are so similar to Witchhunters, why not just call them witchhunters?
because witches dont exist in tyria, most people use magic and there is nothing sinister about it.
The evil in the world of tyria is dragon related, it has been for the last 250 years.The guardians who use protection/smiting/warding based light magic to seek, trap, and harry dragon based evil/corruption are called dragon hunters, much like demonhunters or witchhunters.
Your story/description would be good if the specialization were actually designed or “crafted” to be Dragonhunter. For now it’s not. Mechanic (new virtues) are just pure Paragon. Traps are big symbols with cool animations. Longbow skills are 3 pewpew arrow skills , 1 symbol and 1 trap-like symbol restricting movement of the enemies. Everything light-imbued. Seeing the gameplay I arrived at conclusion: this is Holy Archer archetype with Paragon-like virtues. I don’t see Dragonhunter here at all. One elite skill with dragon’s maw animation and that’s it.
The problem is that Chronomancer and the Reaper are self-explanatory. I saw gameplay of Chronomancer and I was fine with it, Chronomancer = time mage. Gameplay and mechanics fit the name – time manipulation by alacrity, slow & quickness and continuum split/shift. Reaper – fits. Spec looking like Grim Reaper with Scythe, melee combat focused, death theme and enemies are literally chilled in fear. Everything fits perfectly and sounds natural.
In this case skills are like for Holy Archer archetype + Paragon-like virtues = Dragonhunter? No way. This is overinterpretation. This isn’t self-exoplanatory at all! It seems that most people including respected youtubers by ArenaNet had “WTF?” reaction for this name. This specialization doesn’t feel like “dragonhunter” for me and other people. Why people don’t complain and don’t write hundred of posts about names Chronomancer and the Reaper? Why that names didn’t bring controversy? Becasue that names fit to the theme of that specializations. In case of Dragonhunter, the name doesn’t fit.
Remember, Dragonhunters are basically Witchhunters, everything makes a lot more sense if people stop being so literal with the name which is where most of the issue is coming from.
Why on earth would be NOT be literal with the name? Dragon Hunting has all of nothing to do with the themes, ideas, or profession of Guardians. It’s a bland name that doesn’t have anything to do with… anything! It’s a name better suited for someone from Destiny’s Edge or a member of the Pact since they’ve… you know, hunted actual dragons? It’s not unique because every. single. player. has hunted dragons.
If Dragonhunters are so similar to Witchhunters, why not just call them witchhunters?
because witches dont exist in tyria, most people use magic and there is nothing sinister about it.
The evil in the world of tyria is dragon related, it has been for the last 250 years.The guardians who use protection/smiting/warding based light magic to seek, trap, and harry dragon based evil/corruption are called dragon hunters, much like demonhunters or witchhunters.
Your story/description would be good if the specialization were actually designed or “crafted” to be Dragonhunter. For now it’s not. Mechanic (new virtues) are just pure Paragon. Traps are big symbols with cool animations. Longbow skills are 3 pewpew arrow skills , 1 symbol and 1 trap-like symbol restricting movement of the enemies. Everything light-imbued. Seeing the gameplay I arrived at conclusion: this is Holy Archer archetype with Paragon-like virtues. I don’t see Dragonhunter here at all. One elite skill with dragon’s maw animation and that’s it.
The problem is that Chronomancer and the Reaper are self-explanatory. I saw gameplay of Chronomancer and I was fine with it, Chronomancer = time mage. Gameplay and mechanics fit the name – time manipulation by alacrity, slow & quickness and continuum split/shift. Reaper – fits. Spec looking like Grim Reaper with Scythe, melee combat focused, death theme and enemies are literally chilled in fear. Everything fits perfectly and sounds natural.
In this case skills are like for Holy Archer archetype + Paragon-like virtues = Dragonhunter? No way. This is overinterpretation. This isn’t self-exoplanatory at all! It seems that most people including respected youtubers by ArenaNet had “WTF?” reaction for this name. This specialization doesn’t feel like “dragonhunter” for me and other people. Why people don’t complain and don’t write hundred of posts about names Chronomancer and the Reaper? Why that names didn’t bring controversy? Becasue that names fit to the theme of that specializations. In case of Dragonhunter, the name doesn’t fit.
traps are fundamentally different than symbols.
enemies cant see traps
traps persist until you place a new one
traps have longer cast times and arming times
DH traps provide control, support and DPS bursts when triggered.
The DH is style is about preparation, tactics and strategy.
you control your position, and your allies position and time your attack and support to reach maximum benefit.
thats very hunter like.
and once again, my point isnt discussing the name and saying its a cool name. Im just saying DH is a guardian who uses his abilities to hunt. Specifically he hunts the corruption that is in tyria right now. People expecting something that was like a standard guardian are missing the point of specializations.
its supposed to be a different playstyle/within the theme and style of an existing profession.
the playstyle they wanted for this guardian specialization was a hunter type. So this guy is a hunter the way guardian would be a hunter. Thats the entire point of this spec. Of course if you hate hunters, then you will hate the spec, thats why the core spec exists.
just the same way that if you hate Melee/martial types, you will not like reaper, who essentially plays like a hack and slash necromancer.
The more you like the current playstyles of a proffesion, the less need you will have for the current specializations, because they are designed to play very differently.
Basically, if your feedback is Guardian should never become a hunter type, there is no point to that, its settled. If you can think of new playstyles that guardian should have,
feel free to reccomend them for the sake of future specializations
if you think DH is a poor execution of a guardian version of hunter, say why, what would you change, what is it missing to achieve that goal? That theoretically may be usefull.
Basically, if your feedback is Guardian should never become a hunter type, there is no point to that, its settled. If you can think of new playstyles that guardian should have,
feel free to reccomend them for the sake of future specializations
if you think DH is a poor execution of a guardian version of hunter, say why, what would you change, what is it missing to achieve that goal? That theoretically may be usefull.
You don’t have to explain me mechanics and I don’t hate mechanic, that wasn’t my point. As I wrote. The specialization doesn’t feel like “dragonhunter”. Whatever story you will write around it, it won’t erase the fact that it sounds wrong. Will we play a specialization or will we “roleplay” specialization? Do we have to create a very special story for our precious characters to pretend that name has sense? I have no issues with mechanics. The gameplay itsels is ok, but it doesn’t give me impression this is “Dragonhunter”. Holy Archer pretending to have something to do with Paragon. I would be satisfied with different name that actually fits. As I wrote, Chronomancer and Reaper fit. Dragonhunter doesn’t.
Basically, if your feedback is Guardian should never become a hunter type, there is no point to that, its settled. If you can think of new playstyles that guardian should have,
feel free to reccomend them for the sake of future specializations
if you think DH is a poor execution of a guardian version of hunter, say why, what would you change, what is it missing to achieve that goal? That theoretically may be usefull.
You don’t have to explain me mechanics and I don’t hate mechanic, that wasn’t my point. As I wrote. The specialization doesn’t feel like “dragonhunter”. Whatever story you will write around it, it won’t erase the fact that it sounds wrong. Will we play a specialization or will we “roleplay” specialization? Do we have to create a very special story for our precious characters to pretend that name has sense? I have no issues with mechanics. The gameplay itsels is ok, but it doesn’t give me impression this is “Dragonhunter”. Holy Archer pretending to have something to do with Paragon. I would be satisfied with different name that actually fits. As I wrote, Chronomancer and Reaper fit. Dragonhunter doesn’t.
What in your opinion would make it more hunter-like, why does it fail at being a hunter
Basically, if your feedback is Guardian should never become a hunter type, there is no point to that, its settled. If you can think of new playstyles that guardian should have,
feel free to reccomend them for the sake of future specializations
if you think DH is a poor execution of a guardian version of hunter, say why, what would you change, what is it missing to achieve that goal? That theoretically may be usefull.
You don’t have to explain me mechanics and I don’t hate mechanic, that wasn’t my point. As I wrote. The specialization doesn’t feel like “dragonhunter”. Whatever story you will write around it, it won’t erase the fact that it sounds wrong. Will we play a specialization or will we “roleplay” specialization? Do we have to create a very special story for our precious characters to pretend that name has sense? I have no issues with mechanics. The gameplay itsels is ok, but it doesn’t give me impression this is “Dragonhunter”. Holy Archer pretending to have something to do with Paragon. I would be satisfied with different name that actually fits. As I wrote, Chronomancer and Reaper fit. Dragonhunter doesn’t.
What in your opinion would make it more hunter-like, why does it fail at being a hunter
I think you still don’t understand my issue with the name. Hunter role is already taken by Ranger. This spec is like dual class character Guardian/Ranger, so the core difference here is that this specialization is using arrows and traps imbued with light, so this spec actually is “Divine/Holy Archer/Hunter”. Nothing to do with dragons in this spec, nothing implying that these skills are crafted against dragons and their minions. Chronomancers skills are tied to time manipulation and this is what is this specialization is all about. Time manipulator, time mage. What is special in dragonhunter that is more effective against dragons and dragon minions than other professions and specializations? Which skills and mechanic is so special and superior against the dragon minions so the name “DRAGON Hunter” is justified? Because the name itself implies that there is something special, something extraordinary that makes Dragonhunter better at dealing with dragons and their minions than other professions/specs. Is Ranger worse at “hunting the dragons” and their minions then? If warrior got shortbow or torch with additional burning and burning traps, would name “Dragonburner” be appropriate? Why would this spec be better at burning dragon minions than other professions/spec which can burn their enemies to death as well?
Basically, if your feedback is Guardian should never become a hunter type, there is no point to that, its settled. If you can think of new playstyles that guardian should have,
feel free to reccomend them for the sake of future specializations
if you think DH is a poor execution of a guardian version of hunter, say why, what would you change, what is it missing to achieve that goal? That theoretically may be usefull.
You don’t have to explain me mechanics and I don’t hate mechanic, that wasn’t my point. As I wrote. The specialization doesn’t feel like “dragonhunter”. Whatever story you will write around it, it won’t erase the fact that it sounds wrong. Will we play a specialization or will we “roleplay” specialization? Do we have to create a very special story for our precious characters to pretend that name has sense? I have no issues with mechanics. The gameplay itsels is ok, but it doesn’t give me impression this is “Dragonhunter”. Holy Archer pretending to have something to do with Paragon. I would be satisfied with different name that actually fits. As I wrote, Chronomancer and Reaper fit. Dragonhunter doesn’t.
What in your opinion would make it more hunter-like, why does it fail at being a hunter
I think you still don’t understand my issue with the name. Hunter role is already taken by Ranger. This spec is like dual class character Guardian/Ranger, so the core difference here is that this specialization is using arrows and traps imbued with light, so this spec actually is “Divine/Holy Archer/Hunter”. Nothing to do with dragons in this spec, nothing implying that these skills are crafted against dragons and their minions. Chronomancers skills are tied to time manipulation and this is what is this specialization is all about. Time manipulator, time mage. What is special in dragonhunter that is more effective against dragons and dragon minions than other professions and specializations? Which skills and mechanic is so special and superior against the dragon minions so the name “DRAGON Hunter” is justified? Because the name itself implies that there is something special, something extraordinary that makes Dragonhunter better at dealing with dragons and their minions than other professions/specs. Is Ranger worse at “hunting the dragons” and their minions then? If warrior got shortbow or torch with additional burning and burning traps, would name “Dragonburner” be appropriate? Why would this spec be better at burning dragon minions than other professions/spec which can burn their enemies to death as well?
this isnt so much a thread about the name(there is another thread for that), but more about the concept.
The dragon part of the name just tells you what they hunt/why, Just like a bounty hunter just tells you they hunt bounties, There is no innate ability a bounty hunter has that makes them better at killing/capturing people with bounties than police officers, fbi agents, or the military, thats simply a description of what they hunt.
Do you have any problems with the concept? that of a guardian type of hunter? Or is it only the name that bothers you?
Actually I believe the main issue is that people are viewing Specializations as something that is supposed to be as the OP states “logical extension of the flavor and theme of the Guardian.”
That’s the biggest mistake I think everyone is making.
Elite Specializations are designed to be horizontal progression, not vertical. We’re taking a piece of our main profession and specializing further into that aspect.
Chronomancers -> Mesmers who decided to focus more on the time aspect of their profession (which admittedly was pretty sparse to begin with).
Reapers -> Necromancers who decided to focus more on being as powerful as Death itself.
Dragonhunters -> Guardians who decided to focus more on zealous justice.
These are all just one piece of each profession that is being extended, the 2nd Elite specializations for these professions will then delve into another facet of the base profession.
A future elite spec for each could be:
Mesmer -> Some kind of mage-thief that focuses more on its stealth aspects.
Necromancer -> A Demonologist-ish kind of summoner with more focus on minions.
Guardian -> Cleric-ish boon giver/supporter with more focus on tomes.
OP is clearly one of the many that think Elite specs are supposted to be vertical progression but they aren’t. They’re just another choice to play the profession in a different way, a more focused (specialized) role.
We can even use the Druid as an example. It is not the total encompassing progression of what a Ranger is, it is just an extension of the Nature Magic part of the Ranger.
Yes but those focus their whole theme on one thing. Guardians by themselves have nothing to do with hunting, dragons or hunting dragons.
Mesmers have time magic thus Chronomancer.
Rangers have nature magic thus Druid.
Guardians have 0 relation to hunting or dragons which is why it makes no sense.As phys has pointed out, the playstyle of the DH is to switch back and forth between melee and range, heck they even show this on the Ready-Up with the build from Tirzah.
It’s not supposed to be staying at range like a Ranger with a longbow, that’s the entire point of introducing a new playstyle but having a different flavor to it.
Reapers become melee fighters like Warriors/Guardians but the Reaper’s playstyle is different enough from both as well.
Guardians have zeal and/or can be zealous. Thus some focus on that and turn into Dragonhunters.
Remember, Dragonhunters are basically Witchhunters, everything makes a lot more sense if people stop being so literal with the name which is where most of the issue is coming from.
If we’re supposed to use this spec to alternate between ranged and melee combat, then why is the new spec focused exclusively on traits meant for the longbow?
Actually, a DH 2,6,8 with a LB/Hammer build swapping between the two would be VERY good. So I guess my answer is that the new spec is not as focused on traits exclusively for LB as you think it might be.
Besides that, there are other trait lines that favour specific weapon categories that are already in existence, along with builds that swap weapons all the time that those trait lines are NOT optimized for.
So bottom line, you aren’t really saying anything that is exceptional here. We currently have builds that we can swap between ranged and melee where a trait line is focused on one weapon and not the other … and yet, this hasn’t been a problem until someone decides is useful to use as a point to decry the name of a elite spec … convenient.
(edited by Obtena.7952)
Unsurprisingly since I want to play an Archer/Trapper WITHOUT A BRAINDEAD PET leeching 30% of my DPS and a set of f1-f3 actions that don’t lag out for bad AI, I’m pretty excited.
So basically you are excited that you can play the guardian as if it were the ranger you wanted? Do you not see how that is bad for both guardians and rangers?
you realize the basic plan for this set of specializations seems to be subclasses, right? most classes will not get something that is similar to how the old class plays, thats the opposite of the point.
reaper is just as far from necromancer, if not farther than dragon hunter is from guardian.
just like you can say DH is a wanna be ranger, they can say reaper is a wanna be warrior. These specs are all supposed to be different, but use existing weapons/skill types, they will all be similar in some respects to something else. They are basically sub proffesions. when they get to specializations with new weapons, perhaps you will see something that is more new, till then, expect these specializations to take something from a class, but use it in a style/playstyle that fits the theme of the class.
No. No. No. Specializations should give us ways to play classes that are unavailable on any other class. That’s the point; to bring new elements to the game to give it a breath of fresh air.
Going with the subclass route is 100% not the answer. It’d have been one thing if they had a subclass mechanic at launch like they did with GW1, but it’s too late for that now. People that want to play a trap ranger should play a trap ranger. There’s no reason to turn guardians into trap rangers when instead we could give guardians an entirely unique new playstyle that isn’t anything we already have in the game.
Actually I believe the main issue is that people are viewing Specializations as something that is supposed to be as the OP states “logical extension of the flavor and theme of the Guardian.”
That’s the biggest mistake I think everyone is making.
Elite Specializations are designed to be horizontal progression, not vertical. We’re taking a piece of our main profession and specializing further into that aspect.
Chronomancers -> Mesmers who decided to focus more on the time aspect of their profession (which admittedly was pretty sparse to begin with).
Reapers -> Necromancers who decided to focus more on being as powerful as Death itself.
Dragonhunters -> Guardians who decided to focus more on zealous justice.
These are all just one piece of each profession that is being extended, the 2nd Elite specializations for these professions will then delve into another facet of the base profession.
A future elite spec for each could be:
Mesmer -> Some kind of mage-thief that focuses more on its stealth aspects.
Necromancer -> A Demonologist-ish kind of summoner with more focus on minions.
Guardian -> Cleric-ish boon giver/supporter with more focus on tomes.
OP is clearly one of the many that think Elite specs are supposted to be vertical progression but they aren’t. They’re just another choice to play the profession in a different way, a more focused (specialized) role.
We can even use the Druid as an example. It is not the total encompassing progression of what a Ranger is, it is just an extension of the Nature Magic part of the Ranger.
Yes but those focus their whole theme on one thing. Guardians by themselves have nothing to do with hunting, dragons or hunting dragons.
Mesmers have time magic thus Chronomancer.
Rangers have nature magic thus Druid.
Guardians have 0 relation to hunting or dragons which is why it makes no sense.As phys has pointed out, the playstyle of the DH is to switch back and forth between melee and range, heck they even show this on the Ready-Up with the build from Tirzah.
It’s not supposed to be staying at range like a Ranger with a longbow, that’s the entire point of introducing a new playstyle but having a different flavor to it.
Reapers become melee fighters like Warriors/Guardians but the Reaper’s playstyle is different enough from both as well.
Guardians have zeal and/or can be zealous. Thus some focus on that and turn into Dragonhunters.
Remember, Dragonhunters are basically Witchhunters, everything makes a lot more sense if people stop being so literal with the name which is where most of the issue is coming from.
If we’re supposed to use this spec to alternate between ranged and melee combat, then why is the new spec focused exclusively on traits meant for the longbow?
Actually, a DH 2,6,8 with a LB/Hammer build swapping between the two would be VERY good. So I guess my answer is that the new spec is not as focused on traits exclusively for LB as you think it might be.
Besides that, there are other trait lines that favour specific weapon categories that are already in existence, along with builds that swap weapons all the time that those trait lines are NOT optimized for.
So bottom line, you aren’t really saying anything that is exceptional here. We currently have builds that we can swap between ranged and melee where a trait line is focused on one weapon and not the other … and yet, this hasn’t been a problem until someone decides is useful to use as a point to decry the name of a elite spec … convenient.
Oh please. There are currently traits that are centered around specific weapons, but not entire traitlines. Reaper, for example, is heavily focused on using chill to your advantage. A necro has ample access to chill without having to use GS. You’re not pigeonholed into the specific weapon.
We have no cripple outside of the bow autoattack and this knockback trait, which, hey, look at that, we don’t have significant access to knockbacks other than the new bow trait. So yeah, you can still trait for other weapons too, but at the end of the day you’re still essentially traiting for two different builds rather than one cohesive, more powerful one.
Unsurprisingly since I want to play an Archer/Trapper WITHOUT A BRAINDEAD PET leeching 30% of my DPS and a set of f1-f3 actions that don’t lag out for bad AI, I’m pretty excited.
So basically you are excited that you can play the guardian as if it were the ranger you wanted? Do you not see how that is bad for both guardians and rangers?
you realize the basic plan for this set of specializations seems to be subclasses, right? most classes will not get something that is similar to how the old class plays, thats the opposite of the point.
reaper is just as far from necromancer, if not farther than dragon hunter is from guardian.
just like you can say DH is a wanna be ranger, they can say reaper is a wanna be warrior. These specs are all supposed to be different, but use existing weapons/skill types, they will all be similar in some respects to something else. They are basically sub proffesions. when they get to specializations with new weapons, perhaps you will see something that is more new, till then, expect these specializations to take something from a class, but use it in a style/playstyle that fits the theme of the class.No. No. No. Specializations should give us ways to play classes that are unavailable on any other class. That’s the point; to bring new elements to the game to give it a breath of fresh air.
Going with the subclass route is 100% not the answer. It’d have been one thing if they had a subclass mechanic at launch like they did with GW1, but it’s too late for that now. People that want to play a trap ranger should play a trap ranger. There’s no reason to turn guardians into trap rangers when instead we could give guardians an entirely unique new playstyle that isn’t anything we already have in the game.
they may do that for future specs, but this round isnt really focused on that.
So what type of new playstyle would you like to see for guardian?
Chronomancers are certainly unique. I’d say reapers are as well, to a lesser extent.
No. No. No. Specializations should give us ways to play classes that are unavailable on any other class. That’s the point; to bring new elements to the game to give it a breath of fresh air.
Going with the subclass route is 100% not the answer. It’d have been one thing if they had a subclass mechanic at launch like they did with GW1, but it’s too late for that now. People that want to play a trap ranger should play a trap ranger. There’s no reason to turn guardians into trap rangers when instead we could give guardians an entirely unique new playstyle that isn’t anything we already have in the game.
I was assuming (and hoping) that ANet was going to do this for all specializations when the Chronomancer got released. Then the dragonhunter got released, because who needs a unique new playstyle when you can be a wannabe?
(edited by Fashion Mage.3712)
Oh please. There are currently traits that are centered around specific weapons, but not entire traitlines. Reaper, for example, is heavily focused on using chill to your advantage. A necro has ample access to chill without having to use GS. You’re not pigeonholed into the specific weapon.
We have no cripple outside of the bow autoattack and this knockback trait, which, hey, look at that, we don’t have significant access to knockbacks other than the new bow trait. So yeah, you can still trait for other weapons too, but at the end of the day you’re still essentially traiting for two different builds rather than one cohesive, more powerful one.
Black, I think you’re a little blinded by your dislike for the spec. Here’s an example from dulfy where you can take the Dragonhunter traitline and there are literally no traits, including minor traits, that depend on traps, cripple, or the longbow
http://dulfy.net/gw2traits#build=AgIBqAKoBuw~
You’re absolutely wrong about being “pigeon-holed” into certain playstyles with this spec. The only difference is that you can use the longbow and traps now, but you don’t have to. Some of the non-LB/trap traits are actually pretty good.
I challenge you to use the grandmaster trait effectively without the bow.
I challenge you to use the grandmaster trait effectively without the bow.
There is only one grandmaster trait that requires the bow, and that’s Heavy Light. The other two don’t require it at all. The Scepter is our go-to ranged weapon right now, and that would work just fine.