Guild Wars 2

Agree.

Brown Fang Thump.9482:

Joining a guild shouldn’t feel like volunteering for a circuit of never-ending fetch quests.

The new guild system is evil, subjugating players into addicts and slaves.

Or… You can just take your time building up your guild hall? It’s just a suggestion. It has been said that building your guild hall is a long journey that won’t end for a long time. What’s with all the instant gratification stuff you youngins seem to be obsessed with?

I hate to say it but if you’re having to beg for donations/crafting materials then your guild isn’t on the same page as you in regards to working together on the same goal. You should obviously care about the growth of your guild but do it at your own pace.

Verenhimo.3296:

I hate to say it but if you’re having to beg for donations/crafting materials then your guild isn’t on the same page as you in regards to working together on the same goal. You should obviously care about the growth of your guild but do it at your own pace.

I do agree on this, mostly, but…

One point the OP points out is completely true. People will leave small guilds because larger guilds will get stuff faster. But small guilds won’t be the problem, it will be the middling ones. Smaller guilds will most likely consist of people that don’t really care that they’re first. Larger guilds won’t have a problem at all, but the guilds in between will lose members to the larger guilds.

Although I haven’t resorted to being a beggar (yet), as a guild leader I do agree with what you’re saying!

My guild roster has 300 players but the reality is that we have about 40-50 active players. As far as I’m concerned, what is being asked in terms of the materials is extraordinarily excessive. Not only do they want standard farmable mats, they also want players to give up their LUCK & PvP Reward Potions. IMO that is just plain ridiculous!

With HoT having been out 2 weeks now, I have explored little of the new maps. My time so far has been spent trying to figure out guild upgrades and finding that things we had such as 24/7 magic find is a thing of the past.

My guild has been fortunate thus far that we have very generous members who are willing to give; however, I do know some are already feeling the pinch because giving their mats means them not having the gold to buy armor and weapons for their revanants. This shouldn’t be the case. People should be able to play and farm and not feel they are being bled dry by the needs of the guild.

I also agree that guildies aren’t getting much for what they are being asked to give. We were able to upgrade our hall and we got a 3% xp boost. We have gone on to get the karma booster as well only to learn that a player cannot have both boosts, only one. For me that has completely put me off grinding for that type of upgrade seeing you only get one.

Another problem I see is favor. There’s a limit on how much favor you can have which far exceeds the amount of favor you can realistically earn in a week’s time. With influence it was something that was constantly being earned through normal play. This needs to also be the case with favor, we need a way to earn it on a continuous basis through normal game play.

Bottom line, they need to revisit what they are asking us to do to upgrade guild halls. Not all of us want to be a part of mega-guilds and right now that seems like what they are driving us toward.

EDIT: I thought of something else that would extremely helpful in regard to upgrades and materials.

Rather than the guild treasurer asking for all materials for all potential upgrades, we should be able to some how queue the upgrade we are working toward so that guildies know what is needed for the next goal instead of giving items to the treasurer that we may never use and that they can’t get back.

Can you at the very least explain why you want your fully unlocked guild hall yesterday?

Because I don’t get all these newfangled entitled instant gratification lines of thinking.

Dengar.1785:

Can you at the very least explain why you want your fully unlocked guild hall yesterday?

Because I don’t get all these newfangled entitled instant gratification lines of thinking.

I don’t see the OP as wanting a fully unlocked guild hall immediately or wanting instant gratification. What I see is them saying the requirements for some upgrades are excessive.

Dengar.1785:

Can you at the very least explain why you want your fully unlocked guild hall yesterday?

Because I don’t get all these newfangled entitled instant gratification lines of thinking.

It pretty much says to get back to where they were before HoT with the guild buffs, seeing as how the buffs they already had/earned were taken away, or the requirements changed and it is more costly.

Mega guilds will now become Walmart. Killing off any mom and pop guilds because the quantity of donation capacity. I too became tired of being nagged to put something in of which no one will remember I did.

Players months from now will never have to give anything and essentially enjoy all the work prior members made (new guildies into a full hall guild).

I miss the guild wars 1 halls, where, you can buy it yourself and give payment straight up for npcs. Not only was it simple and fun then, it was available for a long time to any guild size.

I hope this isn’t a method to force mega communities in fear that mom and pop guilds let people fall out. In my opinion, mega guilds are just to use and abuse for their benefits and abilities. No one cares who you are nor what you name is in a 300+ guild. Now it won’t be fun for smaller guilds that did care about you to lose members to Walmart guilds.

I think the OP makes some good points.

What’s the difference between a gold cost (from GW1, I distinctly seem to recall NPCs coming at a rather steep price) and a material cost? Both need you either fork them over yourself or have the guild perform donations.

Explain me this though: Why would big guilds be like Wal Mart killing off the smaller guilds? Guilds aren’t competing with eachother. O_o

Dengar.1785:

What’s the difference between a gold cost (from GW1, I distinctly seem to recall NPCs coming at a rather steep price) and a material cost? Both need you either fork them over yourself or have the guild perform donations.

Explain me this though: Why would big guilds be like Wal Mart killing off the smaller guilds? Guilds aren’t competing with eachother. O_o

Walmart intrinsically competes by their sheer size capabilities. Their purchasing power makes it more appealing than say, what Kmart could do. As such, people will maneuver slowly but surely to entities that have in going on. Based on envy and hunger to a part of and organization to be proud of.

Yes you can be proud of a 10 person guild that has no hall. Want more people into yours? Good luck because Walmart guilds are already advertising that they have a hall, meanwhile your mom and pop guild role plays in a public quaggan pond. Players do envy or submit to jealousy when something of theirs isn’t as shiny. Only thick skinned players will remain loyal to their smaller guilds.

Think about this in terms of jobs; would you work for a corner store where everyone knows everyone but no benefits, or work for a corporation that offers benefits and national location coverage? (added they have a nice lounge, aka guild hall. Corner store only has the back room or outside.

In guild wars 1, it was the equivalent of paying 25g to get a hall, and average 15-45g for each service inside. No materials needed.

jessiejay.3625:

Walmart intrinsically competes by their sheer size capabilities.

I’m not discussing this with people who won’t read what I say. I never said Walmart isn’t competing. I said guilds aren’t competing. Walmart sells goods. Guilds sell nothing. They’re just gatherings of people of like minded interests. There’s nothing for guilds to compete over.

Paying straight up currency is easier than precious materials. If 30 active give 1 gold then boom something is covered.

Guilds don’t compete, players want something to be proud of, in turn, respond to advertising of recruitment (that presents a competing selling point of why they should join). Everyone in the mmorpg world knows what a guild hall is. If you say your hall is complete, that is competition. That would be the only reason to tell people you have it.

Dengar.1785:

jessiejay.3625:

Walmart intrinsically competes by their sheer size capabilities.

I’m not discussing this with people who won’t read what I say. I never said Walmart isn’t competing. I said guilds aren’t competing. Walmart sells goods. Guilds sell nothing. They’re just gatherings of people of like minded interests. There’s nothing for guilds to compete over.

Its by example, relax. I only demonstrate by examples.

What guild doesn’t try/compete over tagless players? If they don’t and are smaller than 50, they are a glorified friendlist.

jessiejay.3625:

Paying straight up currency is easier than precious materials. If 30 active give 1 gold then boom something is covered.

Guilds don’t compete, players want something to be proud of, in turn, respond to advertising of recruitment (that presents a competing selling point of why they should join). Everyone in the mmorpg world knows what a guild hall is. If you say your hall is complete, that is competition. That would be the only reason to tell people you have it.

Yes, but that kind of ruins your Walmart analogy. Bigger guilds can’t possibly ruin other guilds because you yourself just said there is no competition.

jessiejay.3625:

Its by example, relax. I only demonstrate by examples.

What guild doesn’t try/compete over tagless players? If they don’t and are smaller than 50, they are a glorified friendlist.

A friends list doesn’t have a shared chat. Or a shared base of operations. Or shared organized activities. Or a place to ask for help to no one in particular and have someone respond to it.

Dengar.1785:

Can you at the very least explain why you want your fully unlocked guild hall yesterday?

Because I don’t get all these newfangled entitled instant gratification lines of thinking.

If someone steals your car, you’re going to put every effort into getting some suitable replacement transportation as quickly as possible. You would not think of that as feeling a newfangled entitlement to instant gratification. Replacing something that was taken from you is not the same as wanting the instant fulfillment of a new desire.

Dengar.1785:

Explain me this though: Why would big guilds be like Wal Mart killing off the smaller guilds? Guilds aren’t competing with eachother. O_o

Aren’t they? Unlike GW1, you can belong to multiple guilds in GW2. Why did “100% rep” guilds exist if they weren’t trying to gain a monopoly over the influence generated by their members? A given player is only going to generate a certain amount of influence, or materials, per day. If multiple guilds want that influence or those materials, each of those guilds is going to have to find a way to induce the player to favor them over the others. Isn’t that competition?

Missing the abstract point.

Have a good day

People join multiple guilds because each guild has a different purpose. They can’t be competing with eachother because they aren’t all about the same thing.

jessiejay.3625:

Missing the abstract point.

Have a good day

Then explain it? That’s what you usually do when people don’t anderstand what you’re talking about.

i dont really see the problem since people can have five guilds

you only ‘need’ to belong to 1 guild that has built up hall

i dont think the new materials system is a great idea, but its not the worst thing ever either. instead of nagging people just put a message in your MOTD.

Dengar.1785:

Can you at the very least explain why you want your fully unlocked guild hall yesterday?

Because he would want to get back to the point his guild was at before HoT nerfed them into the ground?

Dengar.1785:

I’m not discussing this with people who won’t read what I say.

And yet…

Dengar.1785:

Can you at the very least explain why you want your fully unlocked guild hall yesterday?

Dengar.1785:

Or… You can just take your time building up your guild hall? It’s just a suggestion. It has been said that building your guild hall is a long journey that won’t end for a long time. What’s with all the instant gratification stuff you youngins seem to be obsessed with?

That’s a tad reductive. You make a good point but gloss over the fact that large guilds are able to spread costs out among a lot more members making it faster to do all this. People want to build up their guild halls and guild size shouldn’t be a fast track to success for this. It’s a terrible design choice on ArenaNet’s part. Go back and read Chris Whiteside’s Guild Hall CDI. Lots of players including myself wanted a pro-rated system for smaller guilds so that small guilds and large guilds could earn upgrades at a similar pace.

ArenaNet dropped the ball with this stuff. Instead of making it all about the enjoyment of the guild, it’s a material and gold sink. My guildies loved unlocking the guild. Once we saw how many materials we needed to do even the tavern, everyone went back to leveling. If we were in a large guild? No problem! Guild size shouldn’t dictate Guild Hall progression. <—That’s a design gaffe on ArenaNet’s part. There’s literally zero reason for that to have happened. =They went with using guild halls as a time, material, and gold sink, instead of making guild halls all about player enjoyment and socialization.

Dengar.1785:

There’s nothing for guilds to compete over.

They are competing for members.

In my guild, as a leader, I record all the donations that are coming into either the treasury or guild bank. The list is growing longer and longer but at the same time, recording it is important because you will know among all your members, who are the one who cares and the one who don’t.

This is universal truth to all guilds, there are people who cares and people who don’t. Though it is noble for leaders to want to take care of everyone, but it is also very important to know the members who care and the members who don’t.

Dengar.1785:

Can you at the very least explain why you want your fully unlocked guild hall yesterday?

Because I don’t get all these newfangled entitled instant gratification lines of thinking.

At no point did I say I wanted everything quickly. I simply don’t want to have to pester my members to get things going.

As a guild leader, I take it as my job to efficiently provide services for my members.

I lost that ability when HoT launched. Due to the upgrade system I won’t be able to get it back for at least a month. In the mean time, my members are left worse off than they were a month ago.

Brown Fang Thump.9482:

Dengar.1785:

Can you at the very least explain why you want your fully unlocked guild hall yesterday?

Because I don’t get all these newfangled entitled instant gratification lines of thinking.

At no point did I say I wanted everything quickly. I simply don’t want to have to pester my members to get things going.

As a guild leader, I take it as my job to efficiently provide services for my members.

I lost that ability when HoT launched. Due to the upgrade system I won’t be able to get it back for at least a month. In the mean time, my members are left worse off than they were a month ago.

You’re not alone thump. I feel the same way about pestering my members. It’s a necessity and I often remind them what they’re getting out of it, for donating (Bad tavern buffs, an actual guild arena, etc).

Shoe.5821:

i dont really see the problem since people can have five guilds

you only ‘need’ to belong to 1 guild that has built up hall

i dont think the new materials system is a great idea, but its not the worst thing ever either. instead of nagging people just put a message in your MOTD.

Personally, I consider having to post for donations in my MOTD nagging members, as it wasn’t necessary before and it reduces the space for announcements for guild missions and FUN stuff (which is more important to players in a game).

SkyShroud.2865:

you will know among all your members, who are the one who cares and the one who don’t.

This is a valid point. Still, knowing who really cares about the vitality of the guild and being able to provide services for guild members are 2 different things. I’ve known for some time who my core members are and that I can depend on them. I don’t feel good about them constantly making donations to the treasury when all they had to do before HoT was play together and have some fun.

Fun really is supposed to be the whole point, right?

You want to shoulder all the burdens and responsibilities of a guild to yourself, I can understand that perspective but you know, a guild isn’t made up by one person. It isn’t a shameful thing to tell your members that the guild need this and that and so on, it isn’t inconsiderate to depend on others. Rather, not depending on your guildies, it might become a insult towards them since they are part of your guild.

This sounds like a lack of real members or actual leadership ability.

Booey Bubblehead.4890:

Rather than the guild treasurer asking for all materials for all potential upgrades, we should be able to some how queue the upgrade we are working toward so that guildies know what is needed for the next goal instead of giving items to the treasurer that we may never use and that they can’t get back.

Having a built in interface in the guild window that displays guild goals and quantities of donations supplied/need is just good interface design (that ArenaNet has predictably failed to provide). This would make the system much more intuitive and useful. I’m sure the excuse we’d get as to why this isn’t going to be added would be something like, “it’s too difficult to make changes to the guild window now and using an NPC is more flexible for future developments;” but, it’s unfortunate that the design wasn’t implemented more holistically and thoughtfully.

Good points in general there Booey.

Brown Fang Thump.9482:

Booey Bubblehead.4890:

Rather than the guild treasurer asking for all materials for all potential upgrades, we should be able to some how queue the upgrade we are working toward so that guildies know what is needed for the next goal instead of giving items to the treasurer that we may never use and that they can’t get back.

Having a built in interface in the guild window that displays guild goals and quantities of donations supplied/need is just good interface design (that ArenaNet has predictably failed to provide). This would make the system much more intuitive and useful. I’m sure the excuse we’d get as to why this isn’t going to be added would be something like, “it’s too difficult to make changes to the guild window now and using an NPC is more flexible for future developments;” but, it’s unfortunate that the design wasn’t implemented more holistically and thoughtfully.

Good points in general there Booey.

This would be an amazing addition. More communication would help streamline things for guilds.

Omne.4603:

This would be an amazing addition. More communication would help streamline things for guilds.

Hey there Omne. I’m pleasantly surprised that we agree on something here (after your previous, somewhat flippant, comment on my leadership ability).

Do you have any suggestions that might improve the guild upgrade system and its donation requirements or do you feel the system is fine as it is?

This is just a game.
I can’t beg to donate people’s real time. I want members to spend their time more wiser.
Even if I have good LEADERSHIP, I will not let people grind for upgrade.

Hmm. Different experience. Level 15 guild, 30’ish active members. I haven’t had to ask for anything yet. Everyone is keen on donating on their own.

Only real issue is the huge need for so much flax/oil.

My guild hasn’t had any issues with members donating to the hall. Priority materials are posted in Gmotd and that’s it. We’re about 15-20 representing member active. And people donate what they can all the time. Without begging tacts.
We rally fine for all guild missions so far and even manage to pull through for the large/hard guild missions aswell.
How our guild is run must be completely different to how you run yours I guess.
We’re quite a picky social/casual guild too.

I am still disappointed that players activities in the game(besides guild missions) do not earn any favor in the game. I wish there was some way that those who donate towards the guild hall got some recognition. Perhaps a donations leaderboard inside the guild hall. The old system players didn’t have to give up there personal loot to further the guild so I think they should get rewarded in some way.

Dengar.1785:

Can you at the very least explain why you want your fully unlocked guild hall yesterday?

Because I don’t get all these newfangled entitled instant gratification lines of thinking.

Entitled ways of thinking? Use a better word. The OP is a GM of a guild and cannot provide the buffs available to guild members pre HoT. Doesn’t ask for insta unlocks simply that it wasn’t incredibly expensive to upgrade.

Entitled…

I get where the OP was going. My guild leader has been breaking their back lately to get a lot done for the Guild and the Guild Hall, but this is mostly lost on the guild as a whole. We really don’t have a way to understand or even know what is going on in the Guild besides that there is a chat and we are in the Guild. I remember I used to dump stuff into this Guild I was in since launch until I went to college. Then I slowly logged in less and less. The only way I knew what was going on back then was our Guild Leader was persistent in sending us mail or email to let us know what was going on week to week.

As far as I can tell the only person actively doing anything in our guild for our guild right now is my Guild Leader. This isn’t accurate, it is simply what I can tell because of how the communication between Guild and Guild Members is set up right now. The load is really on just a few people and the rest of the Guild runs around utterly clueless.

I feel a bit bad for my Guild Leader as he does most of the work for the Guild Hall… I’ve donated some money and mats but for the most part my regular play hasn’t been disrupted.

The funny thing is no one in my guild really cares all that much about Guild Halls in the first place so I wonder where this pressure to get the Guild Hall done is coming from.

You gotta hand it to him though, his first impulse was and is to buckle down and work for it… not run to the forums to complain.

I don’t think the donation system is well implemented. You don’t get a bonus for donating X amount of your hard earned mats and others who don’t donate get the benefit of others donating plus the benefit from keeping their mats. It’s set up so that the donators get dinged and the nondonators get a free ride. On top of that, even though I donate, I don’t expect I’ll ever get to build anything or decorate the hall.

What maybe they could have done is, put in X amount of a mat and get a guild bonus, such as magic find or exp or gold from monster drops. So if I put in X amount of this and X amount of that, I’ll at least get 2 bonuses from it.

Must be our guild attitude, but while we do have some problems donating some materials we are mostly held back by aetherium. Not sure how much you are hoarding though. We have 14 members active and each donating. That said most of us have a stock of materials hoarded. I STILL haven’t been able to get rid of my 1k mithril in my bank.

Naturally, in our guild, every member can decorate… no reason to hold out the fun features for some elitist fashion of guild leading or some such. Hell you can go pretty crazy with floating pumpkin jumping puzzles straight of the bat.
They only cost 100 cc.

Instead of begging for materials, ask everyone to come in the hall to decide which upgrade to get first, or in most cases which is needed first. And then farm those together.
At all costs, avoid donating for every single upgrade. It is very tempting, but it makes people donate all about the place. Focus one or a few, lay about a plan and involve your members. Schedule farming events for some of the specifics, and then go down a specific road.

Some of those materials seem like loads of materials. But if you have, lets say 10 people doing pvp dailies you would have those pvp reward flasks in 2 days, easily.

It does take some organizing, but if you’re begging people for materials, you might be doing it wrong for your guild, because your members are not that kind of people that donate nilly willy, or maybe don’t even have the materials.

But yeah, we have it easy. We all hoarded loads of materials over the last 3 years.

Well, yah a small guild of 14 people are more likely to be actively engaged and you can let them all decorate. If you’re in a big guild of 200 plus, you’ll likely not know most and they can’t all be allowed to decorate as they want.

It seems like this might be the alternative to the gear/level cap treadmill. It’s not that your stats on your equipment/level are outdated, it’s that your guild no longer has access to benefits you already unlocked for it. I wonder if that’s the plan, moving forward: New xpac=new guild hall to capture and build from the ground up.

Pure speculation, but given that ANET has no qualms about resetting progression, it’s certainly not outside the realm of possibility.

For those of you who don’t understand the Walmart comparison: Big guilds (walmart) are able to spread out the costs among their members much more easily and are also likely to have their boosts/shinies built up more quickly than medium-small (mom & pop stores) guilds will. If you’ve ever heard a guild recruitment message, you can’t possibly say guilds aren’t competing for anything. The guild hall issue just widens the gap between what the smaller guilds have to offer.

It may not bother you as a guild member (since you can just rep in a larger guild), but it’s pretty obvious to me why a guild leader would be stressed about it.

Booey Bubblehead.4890:

Although I haven’t resorted to being a beggar (yet), as a guild leader I do agree with what you’re saying!

My guild roster has 300 players but the reality is that we have about 40-50 active players. As far as I’m concerned, what is being asked in terms of the materials is extraordinarily excessive. Not only do they want standard farmable mats, they also want players to give up their LUCK & PvP Reward Potions. IMO that is just plain ridiculous!

I agree with the PvP reward potions and the luck. I think they should not ask for account bound items in any way. We were lucky we had someone who is a fanatic PvP’er and stacked up on the potions because he already maxed his rank. (Thank you if you’re reading this!)

Asking members to give up their progress in game for the guild hall is wrong..

Yes, I know materials also count as progress towards crafting and making stuff in the Mystic Forge etc, but in my opinion asking for account progress like PVP rank or luck for magic find is something different.

SkyShroud.2865:

In my guild, as a leader, I record all the donations that are coming into either the treasury or guild bank. The list is growing longer and longer but at the same time, recording it is important because you will know among all your members, who are the one who cares and the one who don’t.

This is universal truth to all guilds, there are people who cares and people who don’t. Though it is noble for leaders to want to take care of everyone, but it is also very important to know the members who care and the members who don’t.

I do the same thing. As a leader it’s nice to know who helped us towards guild hall progression. I’m not saying those who don’t don’t care, but I’d still like to know who actually helped.

We’re lucky with the members we have who’re helping us towards our guild hall progression. We’re not ‘rushing’ our guild hall, but ofcourse we’re all very excited and we do want to see all the new stuff!! o/

Also, i was wondering… I see some people saying guild hall progression should be based on a guilds size, as in how many members it has. So that smaller guilds need less materials to build upgrades.

Wouldn’t that mean that guilds would be able to ‘cheat’ easily? Like telling everyone to leave (perhaps to a temporary alt guild), leaving about 10-20 players. Capture the hall, build the upgrades letting people donate stuff trough guild banks and mail. Inviting someone who has account bound stuff to donate to the guild temporary ..

And when the progression is far enough just invite everyone back bringing the total member count back to, for example, 400?

Even if Anet would implement progression in a way so it would benefit smaller guilds, they would have to let you select a ‘member cap’ when you create a guild or something.. Or adjust something with the guild license to increase your guild..

Verenhimo.3296:

I hate to say it but if you’re having to beg for donations/crafting materials then your guild isn’t on the same page as you in regards to working together on the same goal. You should obviously care about the growth of your guild but do it at your own pace.

Exactly, a Guild Hall is build by excited players who want to upgrade it and use it.
If nobody is intrested in getting like a Guild Arena, none will donate their precious PvP Potions :/

All you can do is get people involved on the upgrade process, discuss which ones you’d like and what they want / expect from the guild – and hope they’ll get more excited after that to work with you

shaquinna.2869:

Booey Bubblehead.4890:

Although I haven’t resorted to being a beggar (yet), as a guild leader I do agree with what you’re saying!

My guild roster has 300 players but the reality is that we have about 40-50 active players. As far as I’m concerned, what is being asked in terms of the materials is extraordinarily excessive. Not only do they want standard farmable mats, they also want players to give up their LUCK & PvP Reward Potions. IMO that is just plain ridiculous!

I agree with the PvP reward potions and the luck. I think they should not ask for account bound items in any way. We were lucky we had someone who is a fanatic PvP’er and stacked up on the potions because he already maxed his rank. (Thank you if you’re reading this!)

Asking members to give up their progress in game for the guild hall is wrong..

Yes, I know materials also count as progress towards crafting and making stuff in the Mystic Forge etc, but in my opinion asking for account progress like PVP rank or luck for magic find is something different.

SkyShroud.2865:

In my guild, as a leader, I record all the donations that are coming into either the treasury or guild bank. The list is growing longer and longer but at the same time, recording it is important because you will know among all your members, who are the one who cares and the one who don’t.

This is universal truth to all guilds, there are people who cares and people who don’t. Though it is noble for leaders to want to take care of everyone, but it is also very important to know the members who care and the members who don’t.

I do the same thing. As a leader it’s nice to know who helped us towards guild hall progression. I’m not saying those who don’t don’t care, but I’d still like to know who actually helped.

We’re lucky with the members we have who’re helping us towards our guild hall progression. We’re not ‘rushing’ our guild hall, but ofcourse we’re all very excited and we do want to see all the new stuff!! o/

If you’re unaware, those potions are for the PVP tracks regardless of rank being maxed. Your guildie is giving up fairly serious loot turning those in.