Guild Wars 2

SkyShroud.2865:

Astralporing.1957:

kuritsutian.2987:

No matter how big my house is… if I want to buy a pool, it costs the same!

A pool for a small family will cost less than a pool for 500 people. Size does matter.

You missed his point totally. Quite a number of people already explained it a lot of times, too many times but some people simply refuse to see it because it doesn’t benefit them one single bit.

The main point is this. Small guilds want EVERYTHING at REDUCED cost (Not all small guilds but most small guilds that complained) while other bigger guilds are to pay the original cost. All those analogy are trying to point out that a house of the same size do not cost anything less for anyone regardless how big their family is. However, some advocates are trying so hard to twist the analogy that a family can build and slowly upgrade the house but they never tell you that eventually it will still cost the same to build a house of the same size because they wants you think that it will cost lesser to build a house of the same size #advocatelogic. Too many half-truth, just like politician.

No it is you that has missed the whole point..

Yes the overall cost is the same, no one has argued that point one bit.. but its significantly higher requirements per player across varying sizes of guild because there are no tiers or scale within guild hall requirements.. .. Do the maths its pretty darn straight forward even my 8 yr old gets it.
There is simply no balance or weighting to how guilds fund their specific halls.. not every guild wants to or needs to a guild suitable for 500 players it wants a guild hall fit for purpose.. but we don’t have that on offer, we simply have a mansion with a vast chasm of empty space and no reasonable way of filling in in this natural lifetime.

Without having the availability of choice to guild halls based on guild size requirements, then the one size fits all makes it absurdly expensive for each player and takes extensively longer to get anywhere in comparison to what a large guild can achieve in a mere smidge of the time and cost.. that is the issue.. not the hall itself.

Bottom line is ANET are either clueless in their approach to anything MMO related to such things or they did this with absolutely no intention around Guild Halls other than to rip players off by taking away achievements they had already earned and forced them into long gated grinds to just get back to here they were, all in order to push a gem sale conversion.. personally I think all of the above.

My small guild expected to have to work hard for a guild hall, but then we also read between the lines of absent information that ANET kept totally out of the pre-HoT hype and have already done much of the work required. We saw this rip off coming a mile away.. but that said it does not make what they have done anyway fair for all unless your happy being the next number in a faceless 500 guild.
Personally I hope this comes back to bite them in the backside because it deserving of it imo.

Bloodstealer.5978:

Yes the overall cost is the same, no one has argued that point one bit.. but its significantly higher requirements per player across varying sizes of guild because there are no tiers or scale within guild hall requirements.. .. Do the maths its pretty darn straight forward even my 8 yr old gets it.

What’s your solution then? How would you implement those tiers and scaling? That’s the actual question you are always dodging. It would be nice if your suggestion is also easy to understand and as specific as possible so your 8 yr old gets it.

kuritsutian.2987:

Broom.2561:

kuritsutian.2987:

Well, hate to be that guy but I think small guilds should have it hard… big guilds should grow fast and be powerful, small ones shouldn’t .. and should be hard to unlock high tier options… that’s what a real world guild system would look like.

Dear me…

Well, my guild had over 300 people in Warhammer. We tended to lead the war efforts of our server, so you might say we were powerful. Our guild name has, if it comes down to it, a bit of a reputation in quite a few MMOs. But do you know what made us powerful? The 15 or so people who actually took the trouble to learn their skills to the max, who fought, led the zerg and gathered the costs for upgrading keeps (Warhammer Online was a WvW game, with PVE as an afterthought).

Fact of the matter is, we only recruited our zerglings because the game was not doing so well, and we (rightly) thought inviting new people would give them a place to go for help and to get questions answered. Which in turn might mean more people staying to play.

In my experience, by far most huge guilds will have a core of REAL members and a lot of hangers-on who tend to sit around and demand you organize things for them to do in stead of taking the initiative. And in many cases the core members only recruit as many as they can get so they can brag about their numbers.

So you’ll have to allow me my cynicism about the whole ‘big guilds deserve the power’ thing. In my 12+ years of playing MMOs and leading a guild, I’ve only rarely found the huge guilds amounting to more than the smaller. Some of the most lethal PVP guilds I’ve known (open world and matches) had only 6 members. And yes, they tended to do quite well in PVE too.

I don’t think the Guild System we have now exists in other MMO’s nor previously on this.

Warhammer had a system with guild levels, where the guild earned guild influence proportionate to membership. And the higher the guild level, the more things you unlocked, like faster access to WvW areas. I take it as an example because it had what the old GW2 influence system could have grown into. The current system… just ugh.

maddoctor.2738:

Bloodstealer.5978:

ANET couldn’t be bothered in providing tiers to the guild hall size it was a one size fits all no matter what.
So why should a faceless 500 be able to claim, upgrade and decorate the largest hall so absurdly quicker than a small guild of 10..

How about providing some examples of how these tiers would work? There was one earlier in the thread if you want to look at it, if you are actually paying attention to the thread, and unfortunately it had lots of holes and caused more problems than it solved. So instead of saying “Anet couldn’t be bothered” as if it’s something easily done, why don’t you provide some info for a change? Something you’ve never done so far.

Stop talking rubbish and hiding behind it.. it has been put out there by various players in different threads.. your just too up yourself to take anyone else’s opinions seriously.
Take off your blinkers, stop trying to make out its sooo unfair for larger guilds and actually look at what effect it has on each player, not the kitten guild.. each player!!

Your wanting to treat this feature like its something that’s never been done before… sorry to burst that bubble but it absolutely has been, you just refuse to acknowledge it.
If a faceless guild cant organise itself to contribute enough per player then that’s poor guild management and a sore excuse.

Tiering guild halls absolutely does work and has been working in MMO’s for donkeys.. heck my same guild has had its own guild ship in DDO, which we started out with a 1st tier and kitted it out until we reached a limit on the size and functionality… then its up to the guild to decide whether to move move up or stop growing.
That 1st tier guild ship / guild hall cost less, had less varied functionality, but at the same time provided enough and certainly didn’t require anyone to have to regrind features that we had already earned … ANET have done exactly that.

In fact guild functionality in DDO has an added twist.. all your upgrades have to be maintained so if your a small guild and want the big ship and all the function then you got a heck of a lot of additional maintenance costs going forward, which in itself helps guilds organise and make decisions on what, how, when.
This one size fits all or be kitten ed crap is nothing more than a cash grab, you know it, I know it, we all know it.. but I get it, you don’t want players to be treated fairly, that’s the crux of it so at least be honest about it.

Bloodstealer.5978:

Stop talking rubbish and hiding behind it.. it has been put out there by various players in different threads.. your just too up yourself to take anyone else’s opinions seriously.

Link? Quote?

So if they scale the materials requirements based on membership…

What’s to stop a big guild from starting a 2nd guild, moving all members to said second guild, thus reducing their main membership down to 5 members, and then having all members from the 2nd guild supply the now lower-tier requirements until everything is maxed out, and then move everyone back to the 1st guild?

Nothing. Absolutely nothing. And it would be abused by every large guild in the game. Why kill yourself trying to acquire 10x the amount of materials when you can simply reduce your membership to the lowest tier, fill those reqs, and then invite everyone back in?

That suggestion was not thought through properly, methinks.

Bloodstealer.5978:

maddoctor.2738:

Bloodstealer.5978:

ANET couldn’t be bothered in providing tiers to the guild hall size it was a one size fits all no matter what.
So why should a faceless 500 be able to claim, upgrade and decorate the largest hall so absurdly quicker than a small guild of 10..

How about providing some examples of how these tiers would work? There was one earlier in the thread if you want to look at it, if you are actually paying attention to the thread, and unfortunately it had lots of holes and caused more problems than it solved. So instead of saying “Anet couldn’t be bothered” as if it’s something easily done, why don’t you provide some info for a change? Something you’ve never done so far.

Stop talking rubbish and hiding behind it.. it has been put out there by various players in different threads.. your just too up yourself to take anyone else’s opinions seriously.
Take off your blinkers, stop trying to make out its sooo unfair for larger guilds and actually look at what effect it has on each player, not the kitten guild.. each player!!

Your wanting to treat this feature like its something that’s never been done before… sorry to burst that bubble but it absolutely has been, you just refuse to acknowledge it.
If a faceless guild cant organise itself to contribute enough per player then that’s poor guild management and a sore excuse.

Tiering guild halls absolutely does work and has been working in MMO’s for donkeys.. heck my same guild has had its own guild ship in DDO, which we started out with a 1st tier and kitted it out until we reached a limit on the size and functionality… then its up to the guild to decide whether to move move up or stop growing.
That 1st tier guild ship / guild hall cost less, had less varied functionality, but at the same time provided enough and certainly didn’t require anyone to have to regrind features that we had already earned … ANET have done exactly that.

In fact guild functionality in DDO has an added twist.. all your upgrades have to be maintained so if your a small guild and want the big ship and all the function then you got a heck of a lot of additional maintenance costs going forward, which in itself helps guilds organise and make decisions on what, how, when.
This one size fits all or be kitten ed crap is nothing more than a cash grab, you know it, I know it, we all know it.. but I get it, you don’t want players to be treated fairly, that’s the crux of it so at least be honest about it.

I admire your passion but can you please try to keep it polite? it will be more likely for your OPINION to be taken more seriously.

Draknar.5748:

So if they scale the materials requirements based on membership…

What’s to stop a big guild from starting a 2nd guild, moving all members to said second guild, thus reducing their main membership down to 5 members, and then having all members from the 2nd guild supply the now lower-tier requirements until everything is maxed out, and then move everyone back to the 1st guild?

Nothing. Absolutely nothing. And it would be abused by every large guild in the game. Why kill yourself trying to acquire 10x the amount of materials when you can simply reduce your membership to the lowest tier, fill those reqs, and then invite everyone back in?

That suggestion was not thought through properly, methinks.

Actually, people in this thread suggested quite a few ways to solve this. Might want to, you know, read the whole thread.

Broom.2561:

Draknar.5748:

So if they scale the materials requirements based on membership…

What’s to stop a big guild from starting a 2nd guild, moving all members to said second guild, thus reducing their main membership down to 5 members, and then having all members from the 2nd guild supply the now lower-tier requirements until everything is maxed out, and then move everyone back to the 1st guild?

Nothing. Absolutely nothing. And it would be abused by every large guild in the game. Why kill yourself trying to acquire 10x the amount of materials when you can simply reduce your membership to the lowest tier, fill those reqs, and then invite everyone back in?

That suggestion was not thought through properly, methinks.

Actually, people in this thread suggested quite a few ways to solve this. Might want to, you know, read the whole thread.

Actually they didn’t solve all the problems of the scaling suggestion, because it has many and has been addressed already.

You might want to, you know, read the whole thread.

Bloodstealer.5978:

GreyWolf.8670:

Astralporing.1957:

kuritsutian.2987:

No matter how big my house is… if I want to buy a pool, it costs the same!

A pool for a small family will cost less than a pool for 500 people. Size does matter.

What do you mean? Are you advocating for making large guilds pay more? I can’t get behind that concept any more than I can making it impossible for small guilds to progress at all. Both are unfair.

No.. I think he has it spot on… if you want a large pool to suit 500 players then that has the same weighted cost as it would cost for a pool to accommodate 50 people.

As there are 10 times the number of people supplying the materials and ten times the number of players putting towards the cost then absolutely the overall should be that a large guild should have to put in the same time, cost and effort as a small guild does per player.

ANET couldn’t be bothered in providing tiers to the guild hall size it was a one size fits all no matter what.
So why should a faceless 500 be able to claim, upgrade and decorate the largest hall so absurdly quicker than a small guild of 10.. small guilds di not ask for such a large hall and neither did they ask for all their previous efforts to now be negated and re-gated behind paywalls, something that is nothing more than a mere twitch to replace for much larger guilds, but could easily take a small guild months or worse to get back to where they were.
The guild Hall function absolutely should be tied to the sizing of your guild and the costs/effort weighted accordingly… what we have been handed is nothing short of a money sink that punishes a large portion of the player base whilst those in a faceless 500 can sit back after 15minutes farming their 2-5 carrots each and few potatoes.. while the rest take weeks to get them.

No one here is saying that anyone should have it easy .. but at the same time, many of us are saying it needs to be a lot fairer and more inclusive as a whole community otherwise many are going to just not bother and leave.. look at WvW a wasteland now not a borderland and the new maps are already absent of players the majority of the time.

No sorry all this just smells of desperation to coin in as fast as they can for as long as they can because imo they are unable to create decent content that keeps players wanting to log back in to play except to grind and zerg – guild halls was just the perfect recipe in which to fastrack that hope to coin in, but I am hoping it fails hard because ANET don’t deserve a loyal community after all this crap.

“if you want a large pool to suit 500 players then that has the same weighted cost as it would cost for a pool to accommodate 50 people.”
You do understand that those 500 people end up with a bigger pool right?

“ANET couldn’t be bothered in providing tiers to the guild hall size it was a one size fits all no matter what.”
Factual untrue. There in fact are tiers and choices, and upgrades with tiers.
At least two tiers for all buildings, multiple tiers for upgrades like decoration-vendor and mini vendor and upgrades you can pick from and so on.

“So why should a faceless 500 be able to claim, upgrade and decorate the largest hall so absurdly quicker than a small guild of 10”
That is that bigger pool those 500 people end up with in your example.

“small guilds di not ask for such a large hall”
Pretty sure that is exactly what you are asking for. You ask for that big pool.

“neither did they ask for all their previous efforts to now be negated and re-gated behind paywalls”
Different subject.

“The guild Hall function absolutely should be tied to the sizing of your guild and the costs/effort weighted accordingly”
It is. As a smaller guild you might not be able to unlock all functions, as a big guild you might be able to unlock all functions. Those functions the small guild unlocks cost less as all the functions together (What the big guild unlocks).

There is one change they should do, and that is lowering the guild level requirement. That should help small guild a lot.

Basically in this thread you are asking for A (tier system, where smaller guilds can go for a smaller hall with less functions), but you in fact have A. When reading between the lines it turns out you want B, all tiers for a reduces price.

maddoctor.2738:

Broom.2561:

Draknar.5748:

So if they scale the materials requirements based on membership…

What’s to stop a big guild from starting a 2nd guild, moving all members to said second guild, thus reducing their main membership down to 5 members, and then having all members from the 2nd guild supply the now lower-tier requirements until everything is maxed out, and then move everyone back to the 1st guild?

Nothing. Absolutely nothing. And it would be abused by every large guild in the game. Why kill yourself trying to acquire 10x the amount of materials when you can simply reduce your membership to the lowest tier, fill those reqs, and then invite everyone back in?

That suggestion was not thought through properly, methinks.

Actually, people in this thread suggested quite a few ways to solve this. Might want to, you know, read the whole thread.

Actually they didn’t solve all the problems of the scaling suggestion, because it has many and has been addressed already.

You might want to, you know, read the whole thread.

It’s simple math. Determine what is a reasonable contribution, multiply by members. Use brackets to simplify matters, if necessary. Add ‘upkeep requirements’ that lock facilities if membership grows by too much too suddenly, demanding the lacking amount of resources be contributed. Problem solved.

I think the whole material requirement issue should just be forgotten about, though. They should take it back to influence, so it’s guild ACTIVITY and not guild RL wallet that determines what you get. And no more buying influence scrolls either.

Please note: I have mentioned both before. So er, yeah.

did anyone complain w/ how guild halls were done in gw1, big vs small?

Astralporing.1957:

kuritsutian.2987:

Astralporing.1957:

kuritsutian.2987:

No matter how big my house is… if I want to buy a pool, it costs the same!

A pool for a small family will cost less than a pool for 500 people. Size does matter.

So you would settle with 5% boost instead of 10% boost in say x …. so you would settle with x skin instead of y ….. I think that’s how it works now

Errr… if you think that a pool for 5 will only get you 1% wet compared to a pool for 500, i don’t know what else i can say…

kuritsutian.2987:

Bloodstealer.5978:

… size does matter, remember that!

Enuff said!

Exactly! you are starting to get it!

Big guild > Small guild

Yes, the numbers offer an advantage on its own. No more advantages are needed. Enforcing artificial ones just because devs can’t wrap their minds about the fact that small guilds exist too is a bad design.

Smaller pools tent to have less deep difference, less glides, less options like waves. That is the 5% vs the 10%.

And a bigger guilds indeed has it’s advantages (just as it’s negatives btw). Like being able to get those mats faster or do more upgrades. But you seem to want Devs to take those advantages away.

Astralporing.1957:

kuritsutian.2987:

Astralporing.1957:

Yes, the numbers offer an advantage on its own. No more advantages are needed. Enforcing artificial ones just because devs can’t wrap their minds about the fact that small guilds exist too is a bad design.

My original point was “That’s how a real life Guild system would look like” don’t think it’s artificial, of course small guilds exists and they are not bad… you just can’t have a big pool for the price of a small one just because you are small. Not saying life is fair or not, just stating the point.

Except we don’t want a big pool. We want a small, but fully functional one – not one that is only 1% wet, as you seem to suggest we should get.
Moreover, we want that pool back, because we have already worked ourselves to the bone to get it, and it was taken away from us for no reason at all.

Come on. You (and people like you) want the big pool for a reduced price. You know you want the big pool and you even understand the unfairness in that. That is why you are using this false logic.. Yes you want a small pool that you pay less for… as long as it’s exactly the same pool as the big pool.

Debating this any further seems useless because it’s not that anybody has to convince you of anything. You understand perfectly that a big vs small is not only about size but also about functionality. You just want it all. Then just say so. Don’t try to hide it because you are miserably failing at it and so whatever you try to achieve by hiding that, fails with it.

Broom.2561:

It’s simple math.

If only it was.

Determine what is a reasonable contribution, multiply by members.

That’s not going to work well because member count changes too much. Tiers should be better but they have their own sets of problems. Also, it’s something that was already mentioned, larger guilds have more inactive players too, especially really old ones that existed for years. Kind of unfair to any guild striving to get big to use total member count as your basis.

Add ‘upkeep requirements’ that lock facilities if membership grows by too much too suddenly, demanding the lacking amount of resources be contributed. Problem solved.

It depends on how you define “suddenly” and “too much”. It’s still similar to what Astral suggested, to lock features of the guild away when guilds change tiers. The same thing everyone is complaining about now and you want to add it again only it will be applied multiple times now?

Please note: I have mentioned both before. So er, yeah.

Please note: I answered those before. So er, yeah

Even when I think the Guild system is good as it is, if I were asked to think of a solution, I think the scaling by tier would work ONLY if you can change tier(size) only AFTER you pay a tier change cost where the mat differences between the two tiers will be accounted …. Still believe the current system is better… some things should remain exclusive to keep the feeling of achievement and reward. Maybe not basic things as boosts, but come on … a 5 persons guild having advanced hardware on WvW, fleets, …etc… makes no sense

Jaxom.7310:

did anyone complain w/ how guild halls were done in gw1, big vs small?

Generally, no, because the costs of upgrading, while not cheap, were on completely different scale. If the costs of ugrading guildhall were lower, the fact that big guilds would have it effectively cheaper would not be a big issue.

TL/DR: The biggest problem lies not in the fact that the small guilds need to pay the same prices as size 500 guilds. It’s due to the cost being so high that for many small guilds it would take literal months (if not more) of doing nothing except heavy farming.

maddoctor.2738:

What’s your solution then?

My solution would be not to use mats as a primary basis of upgrade. It would have been better to use Aetherium (timegate irrelevant of the guild size), Favor (mission based resource, which big guilds can generate faster, but is capped), and Influence (similar resource that is generated by just playing the game, that can be generated faster by big guilds – though i’d include a (big) cap as well, a weekly cap, and maybe some sort of diminishing return, similar to the old influence by logged in players). Gamemode specific upgrades (for WvW, sPvP) might require resource generated in said gamemode – again, weekly cap, and possibly some sort of diminishing return.

Some upgrades might be unlocked by doing specific guild missions (similar to the gh capture).

Dependence on actual mats should be minimal. Guild level requirements should be lower and allow for specializing. Guild crafting (Scribe) should be way cheaper to level, and also be based mostly on abovementioned resources, without requiring massive amounts of mats.

Now, that would require complete rewrite of the whole current guild system, so that’s unlikely to happen.

kuritsutian.2987:

Even when I think the Guild system is good as it is, if I were asked to think of a solution, I think the scaling by tier would work ONLY if you can change tier(size) only AFTER you pay a tier change cost where the mat differences between the two tiers will be accounted ….

And that’s what I’ve been saying about suggestions like this, it’s the most unfair thing EVER, far worse than the current system. If a tier 1 guild has 50 people cap and tier 2 has a 100 people cap, those first 50 people would have to pay the costs of 100 people to increase their tier to tier 2! Effectively those 50 people will pay DOUBLE the price!

If Tavern restoration costs 50g in Tier 1 and 100g in Tier 2, it means the guild of those 50 people would have to pay an extra 50g when they change tier, but remember those 50 people are the only people in the guild yet, so they will be paying the price of Tavern DOUBLE. Then when the guild changes to Tier 3, those initial 50 people would have to pay AGAIN and AGAIN and AGAIN.

In the end those initial 50 people of the guild would pay nearly four times the price of what they would if they stayed 50 and never increased tier.

Astralporing.1957:

My solution would be not to use mats as a primary basis of upgrade.

And I agree. The material system is just terrible, I never said I liked it. I’m just certain that scaling the materials is NOT the answer.

Now, that would require complete rewrite of the whole current guild system, so that’s unlikely to happen.

I don’t know if there is anything they can do at this point in time though but they’ve done some major overhauls over the years, anyone remember the two trait revamps? There is some hope, at least for WvW and PvP guilds to get what they want without spending an insane amount of time in PVE gathering materials, and in the end a change like that would benefit all guilds as well.

maddoctor.2738:

kuritsutian.2987:

Even when I think the Guild system is good as it is, if I were asked to think of a solution, I think the scaling by tier would work ONLY if you can change tier(size) only AFTER you pay a tier change cost where the mat differences between the two tiers will be accounted ….

And that’s what I’ve been saying about suggestions like this, it’s the most unfair thing EVER, far worse than the current system. If a tier 1 guild has 50 people cap and tier 2 has a 100 people cap, those first 50 people would have to pay the costs of 100 people to increase their tier to tier 2! Effectively those 50 people will pay DOUBLE the price!

If Tavern restoration costs 50g in Tier 1 and 100g in Tier 2, it means the guild of those 50 people would have to pay an extra 50g when they change tier, but remember those 50 people are the only people in the guild yet, so they will be paying the price of Tavern DOUBLE. Then when the guild changes to Tier 3, those initial 50 people would have to pay AGAIN and AGAIN and AGAIN.

In the end those initial 50 people of the guild would pay nearly four times the price of what they would if they stayed 50 and never increased tier.

Yup, can’t be helped… That’s why things are how they are… The current system is alright… One of the pillars it was designed was to promote Community and Fellowship.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/welcome-to-guild-halls/

I know some games that does it pretty good. Instead of having the actual roster size for selecting tier, they use the maximum allowed size. Which can be upgraded (and preferably downgraded if wanted, for guilds with inactive members).

So for example, having sizes:
Size 1: max X people
Size 2: max Y (>X) people
Size 3: max Z (>Y) people
Size 4: … etc …

The guild then needs to upgrade, to allow the bigger size. For each upgrade it scales the guild upgrade costs. Maybe scales guild mission requirements as well and some of the larger guild missions might even be locked for smaller guilds.

The larger sizes should still have cheaper prize per guild member than the smaller sizes, but the smaller guilds should have a reduced total cost. Larger guilds should also have a slight advantage of gaining favor per member.

@Devata:
The same size pool
For a reduced cost
Where each person pays more and earns less individually
With the benefit to share the pool with less people
… and yes I admit.. I want it =)

P.S.
“Fun is the process of discovering areas in a possibility space.”
– From the book, A Theory of Fun for Game Design

P.S.S.
Don’t really care what the do with the Guild Hall system, but would be fun to experience it without joining a random guild. Will continue playing the game regardless.

Bloodstealer.5978:

SkyShroud.2865:

Astralporing.1957:

kuritsutian.2987:

No matter how big my house is… if I want to buy a pool, it costs the same!

A pool for a small family will cost less than a pool for 500 people. Size does matter.

You missed his point totally. Quite a number of people already explained it a lot of times, too many times but some people simply refuse to see it because it doesn’t benefit them one single bit.

The main point is this. Small guilds want EVERYTHING at REDUCED cost (Not all small guilds but most small guilds that complained) while other bigger guilds are to pay the original cost. All those analogy are trying to point out that a house of the same size do not cost anything less for anyone regardless how big their family is. However, some advocates are trying so hard to twist the analogy that a family can build and slowly upgrade the house but they never tell you that eventually it will still cost the same to build a house of the same size because they wants you think that it will cost lesser to build a house of the same size #advocatelogic. Too many half-truth, just like politician.

No it is you that has missed the whole point..

Yes the overall cost is the same, no one has argued that point one bit.. but its significantly higher requirements per player across varying sizes of guild because there are no tiers or scale within guild hall requirements.. .. Do the maths its pretty darn straight forward even my 8 yr old gets it.
There is simply no balance or weighting to how guilds fund their specific halls.. not every guild wants to or needs to a guild suitable for 500 players it wants a guild hall fit for purpose.. but we don’t have that on offer, we simply have a mansion with a vast chasm of empty space and no reasonable way of filling in in this natural lifetime.

Without having the availability of choice to guild halls based on guild size requirements, then the one size fits all makes it absurdly expensive for each player and takes extensively longer to get anywhere in comparison to what a large guild can achieve in a mere smidge of the time and cost.. that is the issue.. not the hall itself.

Bottom line is ANET are either clueless in their approach to anything MMO related to such things or they did this with absolutely no intention around Guild Halls other than to rip players off by taking away achievements they had already earned and forced them into long gated grinds to just get back to here they were, all in order to push a gem sale conversion.. personally I think all of the above.

My small guild expected to have to work hard for a guild hall, but then we also read between the lines of absent information that ANET kept totally out of the pre-HoT hype and have already done much of the work required. We saw this rip off coming a mile away.. but that said it does not make what they have done anyway fair for all unless your happy being the next number in a faceless 500 guild.
Personally I hope this comes back to bite them in the backside because it deserving of it imo.

Yea….

You keep believing that you are asking for half a football field and absolutely believe that half a football field function the same as a full football field but we sane people all know that half a football field do not function the same as a full football field. In fact, you are simply asking for a full football field at the cost of half a football field. Then claiming there are no tiers and upgrades options when everyone who own a guild hall can proudly tell you otherwise. The fallacy is real strong here. That’s why you see the arguments always ended up no where because one group is emphasizing on real logic while the other one is doing the opposite.

Now, you are saying the cost is absurd and is the real issue here. Make up your mind what you are asking for because we can all read your past posts.

1. The cost is too high, make it more affordable like pre-hot (I have to remind you that pre-hot we all have the same cost)
2. I want to buy everything at half the cost

Which is it?

Swift.1930:

Shuai.7435:

Kraggy.4169:

kuritsutian.2987:

So before HoT you had no guild hall and you were happy…… now you have a chance of having a guild hall, but can’t get it …. so having no guild hall now makes you unhappy?
why do you suddenly feel the need for a GH if you don’t like people… just find a cool area to meet and call it a hideout!

Before HOT a guild earned the ability to get banners etc. which was taken away by HOT and locked behind the guild hall’s front door in the form of SCRIBING.

Small guilds lost everything they had because HOT makes it nigh on impossible for them to re-earn what they already HAD!

Except for that you get to keep all of the banners you made before HoT and is able to craft new ones of the types you had unlocked pre-HoT at the Initiative HQ…

Verified? I haven’t heard of this (and I’m not on right now to try it, even if my little guild can afford it). We can no longer earn influence to buy upgrades by teaming up with guildies, though, right?

Slightly verified… it all costs commendations rather than a currency my guild can actually obtain (or is it easier to obtain commendations now?). We had regular influence streams which meant we could afford a banner/catapult every few days or so. We won’t be getting commendations this century… unless the methods for gaining those have improved significantly.

SkyShroud.2865:

1. The cost is too high, make it more affordable like pre-hot (I have to remind you that pre-hot we all have the same cost)
2. I want to buy everything at half the cost

Which is it?

Both – i want to be able to buy it at the fraction of the current cost, because my guild is simply unable to ever afford it at the current pricing. Whether it would mean decreasing the price for all, or price scaling, i don’t really care. I’m not in this to fix the world – i assume, that big guilds are perfectly able to take care of their own interests. If i don’t hear them complaining about the prices, i have to assume they are okay with them – and i don’t hear them complaining that much (besides complains about scribing, that seems to be universal regardless of size).

TL/DR: What I want is for the prices to be reasonable for small guilds. How is that achieved, i don’t really care that much. And if players from big guilds will continue to claim that the prices are okay (and small guilds should shut up), as many do in this and similar threads , then they can continue to pay them for all i care. As long as i won’t have to.

maddoctor.2738:

kuritsutian.2987:

Even when I think the Guild system is good as it is, if I were asked to think of a solution, I think the scaling by tier would work ONLY if you can change tier(size) only AFTER you pay a tier change cost where the mat differences between the two tiers will be accounted ….

And that’s what I’ve been saying about suggestions like this, it’s the most unfair thing EVER, far worse than the current system. If a tier 1 guild has 50 people cap and tier 2 has a 100 people cap, those first 50 people would have to pay the costs of 100 people to increase their tier to tier 2! Effectively those 50 people will pay DOUBLE the price!

If Tavern restoration costs 50g in Tier 1 and 100g in Tier 2, it means the guild of those 50 people would have to pay an extra 50g when they change tier, but remember those 50 people are the only people in the guild yet, so they will be paying the price of Tavern DOUBLE. Then when the guild changes to Tier 3, those initial 50 people would have to pay AGAIN and AGAIN and AGAIN.

In the end those initial 50 people of the guild would pay nearly four times the price of what they would if they stayed 50 and never increased tier.

Ok just figured it out…. the solution for the nonexistent problem is the one I mentioned, having to pay for tier upgrade prior the change…. BUT not the way you are saying it… if you go from 50 to 100 population its a drastic cost, everyone should pay 200% of the cost… not good….. instead ….. if each tier increased only by 5 members … and first tier is lets say 10, the increases would be much bearable specially as the Guild increases in size … by the time it reaches 50 .. to go next tier would cost only the mats for 5 people… roughly 10% of the already paid amount … consider too a low level Guild wouldn’t have high tier unlocks to pay for so this is much affordable…. ..Still…. Long life to the current system, it’s good as it is! .. :P

maddoctor.2738:

Broom.2561:

Draknar.5748:

So if they scale the materials requirements based on membership…

What’s to stop a big guild from starting a 2nd guild, moving all members to said second guild, thus reducing their main membership down to 5 members, and then having all members from the 2nd guild supply the now lower-tier requirements until everything is maxed out, and then move everyone back to the 1st guild?

Nothing. Absolutely nothing. And it would be abused by every large guild in the game. Why kill yourself trying to acquire 10x the amount of materials when you can simply reduce your membership to the lowest tier, fill those reqs, and then invite everyone back in?

That suggestion was not thought through properly, methinks.

Actually, people in this thread suggested quite a few ways to solve this. Might want to, you know, read the whole thread.

Actually they didn’t solve all the problems of the scaling suggestion, because it has many and has been addressed already.

You might want to, you know, read the whole thread.

Read all 10 pages of posts? Yea right…. lol

Great. Now not only do I want my guild hall but I want a pool in it. :/

Astralporing.1957:

SkyShroud.2865:

1. The cost is too high, make it more affordable like pre-hot (I have to remind you that pre-hot we all have the same cost)
2. I want to buy everything at half the cost

Which is it?

Both – i want to be able to buy it at the fraction of the current cost, because my guild is simply unable to ever afford it at the current pricing. Whether it would mean decreasing the price for all, or price scaling, i don’t really care. I’m not in this to fix the world – i assume, that big guilds are perfectly able to take care of their own interests. If i don’t hear them complaining about the prices, i have to assume they are okay with them – and i don’t hear them complaining that much (besides complains about scribing, that seems to be universal regardless of size).

TL/DR: What I want is for the prices to be reasonable for small guilds. How is that achieved, i don’t really care that much. And if players from big guilds will continue to claim that the prices are okay (and small guilds should shut up), as many do in this and similar threads , then they can continue to pay them for all i care. As long as i won’t have to.

Thanks for being really honest, it really helps provide a lot of insights over all those silly arguments. Just to emphasize on one point though, the people who are arguing against your kinds are not because they do not want the cost to be reduced, they simply do not want it to be done in a manner that is simply and purely unfair.

maddoctor.2738:

Broom.2561:

It’s simple math.

If only it was.

Determine what is a reasonable contribution, multiply by members.

That’s not going to work well because member count changes too much. Tiers should be better but they have their own sets of problems. Also, it’s something that was already mentioned, larger guilds have more inactive players too, especially really old ones that existed for years. Kind of unfair to any guild striving to get big to use total member count as your basis.

Add ‘upkeep requirements’ that lock facilities if membership grows by too much too suddenly, demanding the lacking amount of resources be contributed. Problem solved.

It depends on how you define “suddenly” and “too much”. It’s still similar to what Astral suggested, to lock features of the guild away when guilds change tiers. The same thing everyone is complaining about now and you want to add it again only it will be applied multiple times now?

Please note: I have mentioned both before. So er, yeah.

Please note: I answered those before. So er, yeah

Well, here’s where you simply have to be ruthless as a guild leader. Have inactives? Boot them. If they’re only a burden, out they go, unless they have VERY special circumstances. They’re welcome to rejoin once they’re back.

this many posts and this many views says something.
people (players) care about this.

rogerwilko.6895:

this many posts and this many views says something.
people (players) care about this.

The lack of any Anet response also speaks volumes .. they’re too busy on Reddit pushing e-sports that likely less than 2% of players care about.

Haven’t played Wildstar, but I’d be curious to know if the game changes the expansion brought with it equal the style of Wildstar. From what I read about Wildstar, it failed because it was heading exactly in the direction GW2 is moving to.
Could be completely wrong though – maybe someone cares to elaborate?

Dejavu.2349:

I am a huge GW2 fan – I’ve brought many people to the game and have been playing since beta, but the reasons I’ve had to come back to this game between every other MMO are pretty much gone.

I’ve played every major MMO from it’s launch through it’s content at launch. Some games (SWTOR, for instance) I get done with all available content before they’ve even finished the intended starting content, so I leave… and I don’t come back. Ever. Other games take a while longer (like WoW expansions, which I stopped buying after Cataclysm or Rift), but when I left, I left. It was done. Finished. Over. GW2 has been my mainstay since it’s launch and, sadly, it won’t be for much longer due to the fact that I can no longer experience all it’s content without being in a guild. A big guild, at that.

The primary reason I kept coming back to GW2 was that I could see all of it’s content without having to deal with people (I’m always a guild/raid leader in other games and that just wears me down) and still be as relevant as I was when I started a break – sometimes a couple of weeks, sometimes a couple of months; I knew the same great game would be waiting for me when I came back. And I put a lot of hard-earned cash into this game because I loved it so much and it earned it.

That has changed and this is why:
https://goo.gl/ZXBiva
I made a little spreadsheet of the required materials just for Resotration 1-affiliated builds in the Guild Hall. This isn’t nearly a quarter of the materials needed to get to the actual content like Weaponsmith 2’s, which require completion of nearly all builds in restoration 2 and a guild level of 40.

So, basically, not only can my small guild not even claim it’s own Guild Hall with it’s 2 or 3 people (family – pretty much the only people I can stand any more), but we have to get to guild level 40 and get an insane amount of materials – like completely impossible within the expected lifetime of this game (my kids will be through college before I was able to grind out all materials)- in order to fully experience the game.

I’m done.
I’ll play until I leave (again) for another game, but this time, I’ll have a WHOLE LOT LESS reason to come back. Right now, the MMO field is pretty sparse and dry, so I’m good for a while…. But I’m extremely disappointed that my refuge game is now just another game in a pile of grindy games that require I pretend to like other people. I just won’t do it. Unlike some people, I’m not a pretender… I really am incapable of feigning interest any more.

Hey OP, I understand how you feel. I’m a casual player, and for a long time I rolled without a guild. It sucks, it really does, to be locked from certain content. I’d like to help you find that refuge again. I joined a guild a while back, it has a lot of nice people in it. It might be out of your comfort zone but if you’d like to join, just to see how you fit in, we’d be happy to take you (we even have our own guild hall!) 10-12 of us are usually online at a time, my character’s name is Jyuzo, you can also message me using my tag, please don’t quit! I hope you can keep having fun

Devata.6589:

Astralporing.1957:

kuritsutian.2987:

No matter how big my house is… if I want to buy a pool, it costs the same!

A pool for a small family will cost less than a pool for 500 people. Size does matter.

That system is in place in the GW2 Guild-Halls. You can go for the mini vendor 1, 2 and 3. Small, bigger, biggest.

You can go for a fully upgraded Warroom or only go for T1.

You can take decorator vendor 1, 2 and 3 (small, bigger biggest).

You can go for only a harvest boost, or also a XP boost, or also… Well you get the point.

How can I get my +5 supply without buying a 500 person pool for 5 people?
This is an upgrade we ran every day under the old system.

You don’t seem to have an answer for this outside of attacking others for wanting an option to buy a smaller pool to give them the option to buy needed upgrades.

At my current rate it will take me over 1 year to get this upgrade if I don’t quit before then.

Draygo.9473:

Devata.6589:

Astralporing.1957:

kuritsutian.2987:

No matter how big my house is… if I want to buy a pool, it costs the same!

A pool for a small family will cost less than a pool for 500 people. Size does matter.

That system is in place in the GW2 Guild-Halls. You can go for the mini vendor 1, 2 and 3. Small, bigger, biggest.

You can go for a fully upgraded Warroom or only go for T1.

You can take decorator vendor 1, 2 and 3 (small, bigger biggest).

You can go for only a harvest boost, or also a XP boost, or also… Well you get the point.

How can I get my +5 supply without buying a 500 person pool for 5 people?
This is an upgrade we ran every day under the old system.

You don’t seem to have an answer for this outside of attacking others for wanting an option to buy a smaller pool to give them the option to buy needed upgrades.

At my current rate it will take me over 1 year to get this upgrade if I don’t quit before then.

Can you be more specific about what you consider buying 500 person pool in this example?

The 500 person pool would be a fully upgrades hall. You don’t need that for the 5+ upgrade.

And why 5 supply?, according to Anet that belongs to a middle size guild (Not saying that’s good, but that’s how Anet defines the 5 buff).

The small hall/pool comes with Scribing: Minor Supply Drop. You can get that with a few mine upgrades and a few warroom-upgrades. You do not need to upgrade the complete Warroom for it.

You first buy the Guild-hall itself (what cost 100 gold, even for 5 man this is doable with 20 gold per person). Then you start upgrading, not to get the big pool, but the small pool that comes with the Scribing: Minor Supply Drop.

Now maybe you say.. Well I think +5 should be something for small guilds while the Scribing: Minor Supply Drop should be something for bigger guilds (and I might even agree on that). But that is a different discussion.

There simply are tiers that allow you to get a small, bigger or biggest pool / hall. And the small pool comes with something, the bigger one comes with more (like +5) and the biggest comes with everything.

When done correctly it should take the small guild just as long to get the small pool, as it would take a big guild to take the biggest pool.

It’s also not that I think the current system has no flaws. I already said the guild-level requirement should be lowered for most upgrades (Honestly, I only see it valid of the guild hall expansion upgrade) and the fact that scribers have to make things for WvW is also bad imho.

I would also understand it perfectly if you would say some things that are now locked should be rearranged. But that are all tweaks and does not take away from the fact that there are tiers and so guilds of different sizes have different things to go for.

Minor supply drop IS a big guild upgrade. I have zero need as a small guild for that upgrade. +5 supply on the other hand is a current “big guild” upgrade.

Common wvw scenarios. A camp when you capture it will have at most 100 supply. With the +5 upgrade each of my members could take 20 supply. Leaving us with 100 supply in party and 0 in the camp.

Now imagine a large wvw guild caps the same camp with 50 people
that +5 supply buff does not help them at all. As only 5 of the 50 people would get full supply. The mini supply drop would be useful here.

As it stands I have to not only get the tier 2 upgrade, I have to level my guild to 37. For an upgrade that is a huge boon to small guilds. There is no cheaper way for me to unlock the prerequisites for this upgrade that I used to have. That to me is an outrage.

The upgrades that are just nice things I don’t really care about. The thing I need that are locked behind huge paywalls is the problem.

Anet gave my guild all the pve upgrades it had previously for free
but wvw upgrades need not apply.

Devata.6589:

Can you be more specific about what you consider buying 500 person pool in this example?

The 500 person pool would be a fully upgrades hall. You don’t need that for the 5+ upgrade.

No, a “500 person pool” in this context would be a +5 upgrade priced for 500 people (and requiring a 500-man warroom to unlock).

The difference between a small family pool and a 500 man pool is merely that the latter can be used by more people at the same time.

Devata.6589:

And why 5 supply?, according to Anet that belongs to a middle size guild (Not saying that’s good, but that’s how Anet defines the 5 buff).

+5 supply is a staple of small WvW havoc groups. They must have this update to exist, because they operate in groups small enough that lack of this supply severely hampers their activities.
Fun fact, havoc groups were a niche that up to now was mostly filled by small to small-mid guilds. Guilds definitely way smaller than “middle size” (remember, that for Anet any guild at 50 or lower is small. Mid for them is likely 100-200 range)

You have to remember a party of 5 in WvW with the +5 supply camp buff can build one of the following

Build 2 Superior Rams (100 supply)
Build 2 Catapults (100 supply)
Build 1 Trebuchet (100 supply)
Build 2 Superior AC (100 supply)
Build 3 Ballista (90 supply)
Build 2 Superior Ballista (80 supply)
Build 1 Siege Golem (100 supply)

Without resupplying.

This amount of supply lets our groups operate behind the enemy attacking targets and making the enemy defend them or lose them.

Without the buff you have a maximum of 75 supply which is not even enough for 2 regular rams. Being able to quickly build a treb in one go before your enemy can locate and start trebbing you gives you a good head start to any counter trebbing you may do.

Scribing small supply drop is absolutely useless for me. Useless.

Matisse.9356:

Haven’t played Wildstar, but I’d be curious to know if the game changes the expansion brought with it equal the style of Wildstar. From what I read about Wildstar, it failed because it was heading exactly in the direction GW2 is moving to.
Could be completely wrong though – maybe someone cares to elaborate?

You are correct about Wildstar, although GW2 isn’t quite as hardcore as WS was but it is heading on that curve.

Draygo.9473:

You have to remember a party of 5 in WvW with the +5 supply camp buff can build one of the following

Build 2 Superior Rams (100 supply)
Build 2 Catapults (100 supply)
Build 1 Trebuchet (100 supply)
Build 2 Superior AC (100 supply)
Build 3 Ballista (90 supply)
Build 2 Superior Ballista (80 supply)
Build 1 Siege Golem (100 supply)

Without resupplying.

This amount of supply lets our groups operate behind the enemy attacking targets and making the enemy defend them or lose them.

Without the buff you have a maximum of 75 supply which is not even enough for 2 regular rams. Being able to quickly build a treb in one go before your enemy can locate and start trebbing you gives you a good head start to any counter trebbing you may do.

Scribing small supply drop is absolutely useless for me. Useless.

Sure, but that is a different discussion. Then the question should be to arrange the upgrades different. No silly talk about making tiers, while there are tiers, or scaling, or as a small guild wanting the same in the same time as a big guild.

So if that are the types of problem small guilds are running into I can understand it. But that’s not what people have been asking for in this thread.

Devata.6589:

So if that are the types of problem small guilds are running into I can understand it. But that’s not what people have been asking for in this thread.

People in this thread have been asking to make the upgrades cheaper and more easily accessible. Scaling is just a idea introduced to leave the size 500 prices at the current level, since the big guilds apparently like them so much.

The main beef with the current system is that Anet balanced upgrade prices around assumption that every guild is max size, and upgrade unlocks aroud assumption that no guilds would want to specialize, instead preferring to raise all upgrade lines at the same time. Both of those assumptions are, of course, wrong.

Astralporing.1957:

Devata.6589:

So if that are the types of problem small guilds are running into I can understand it. But that’s not what people have been asking for in this thread.

People in this thread have been asking to make the upgrades cheaper and more easily accessible. Scaling is just a idea introduced to leave the size 500 prices at the current level, since the big guilds apparently like them so much.

The main beef with the current system is that Anet balanced upgrade prices around assumption that every guild is max size, and upgrade unlocks aroud assumption that no guilds would want to specialize, instead preferring to raise all upgrade lines at the same time. Both of those assumptions are, of course, wrong.

You need to stop convincing yourself that anet balanced it around 500 size. All who followed the streams knows they didn’t. Of course, you didn’t. Anet made a target of 6 mths for a guild of 10 to max the guild, naturally, the 10 must be active, hardworking and contributing players.

I am pretty sure that you prefer to max the guild within 1 months.

Fair call OP.

The game was already becoming a work simulator, now it’s all staff on deck to get anywhere. I don’t finish work to then come home and log-on to my second job, and look out if my other staff..oh I mean guild members…clock in late.

lolz.

It’s sad to see this sentiment becoming so prevalent though, more so in game. GW was always that game you played to get away from such things. I worry for the future of the franchise if they keep killing such a major point of difference that attacted so many..

SkyShroud.2865:

Astralporing.1957:

Devata.6589:

So if that are the types of problem small guilds are running into I can understand it. But that’s not what people have been asking for in this thread.

People in this thread have been asking to make the upgrades cheaper and more easily accessible. Scaling is just a idea introduced to leave the size 500 prices at the current level, since the big guilds apparently like them so much.

The main beef with the current system is that Anet balanced upgrade prices around assumption that every guild is max size, and upgrade unlocks aroud assumption that no guilds would want to specialize, instead preferring to raise all upgrade lines at the same time. Both of those assumptions are, of course, wrong.

You need to stop convincing yourself that anet balanced it around 500 size. All who followed the streams knows they didn’t. Of course, you didn’t. Anet made a target of 6 mths for a guild of 10 to max the guild, naturally, the 10 must be active, hardworking and contributing players.

I am pretty sure that you prefer to max the guild within 1 months.

And if you’re such a fan of the ‘hardworking’ part (and please note most people play games to, you know, PLAY), you might want to have a look in Age of Conan and see how that worked out for them. The ridiculously huge materials cost for guild city upgrades there pretty much drove out guilds by the dozen.

SkyShroud.2865:

You need to stop convincing yourself that anet balanced it around 500 size. All who followed the streams knows they didn’t. Of course, you didn’t. Anet made a target of 6 mths for a guild of 10 to max the guild, naturally, the 10 must be active, hardworking and contributing players.

Nah, that was completely about aetherium timegate, not the material costs. I am perfectly fine with that part, as it doesn’t penalize small guilds in no way.

Completely agreed fireflyry… and OP, et al… 10 pages worth…

I have never, ever, rage quit GW2, ever, until recently. Click done, fed up. Unbelievably, I think I’m nearing the “completely done” with the game phase. Agreed, It’s supposed to be fun and relaxing, not a stressful second job on all fronts, including guild halls. I rarely even bother to rep any of my guilds anymore, big, or small. Not even the ones I really like and enjoy playing the game with. Why bother? So I can farm mats for a guild hall, and be told where and when to play? They’ve destroyed virtually everything that I’ve enjoyed about the game since GW1 since the HoT release, starting with guild stuff, and now progressing on through particle effects. And, they are not listening to anyone. Correction, they are in fact listening to someone… But who? Not the voices here, and not the majority of the core long term players.

Worse yet, they are acting like a disobedient dog running away with his ears folded back, just because he wants to go somewhere. He doesn’t really know where, but, he’s not about to stop running there just because of a little 4 lane highway and a few speeding cars. Pure determination to find something interesting to sniff is all that really matters.

I believe they are so overwhelmed with all the negative feedback since HoT, that they have no idea what to do with the piles of non-reversible changes they made, and directions that they chose to run, that I believe that they are completely lost. Much like the dog that didn’t pay attention to where he was running. He’s just there now, and forgot what he was doing in the first place, and doesn’t know where to go next.

They are acting like a small town college that some director decided that they want to have Big Ten football team, as to be recognized as a full fledged university. So they make big guilds and e-sports, and media their priority. They may have people in charge now that have no clue of their own history, and may have never even played the game. But they do know how to make spread sheets. They are running spreadsheets on their computers, and looking at flow charts, and trying to make something meaningful out of them, and trying make sense of their numbers.

Methinks numbers are falling off a cliff, from the looks of all the maps lately, and someone is resorting to more spreadsheets and unfounded schemes to increase ROI and reduce things like indirect labor expenses to impress their bosses. And by sinking mats into guild halls, the solution is clear as mud. Companies often get wadded up in politics, and bright ideas, and run astray from their core product lines, in the name of growth. Happens all the time. Good companies recognize something is going awry, and they square up with it. Others go into a full ostrich mode and bury their heads in the sand and begin spinning media yarns, and employing denial tactics.

Starting with GW’s very own history and their original guild mentality, which they themselves created. They have completely forgotten about the original game, and it’s core players. The lifers. The people that perpetually enjoy THIS game, and THIS game only, as their primary game of choice. The ones that want to play as they chose, wherever they choose, when they choose, within the game.

History of GW. (For those that don’t know, and as a reminder to Anet…) Anet designed, and implemented “Hero’s” in GW1, to enable even solo players to be able to participate in ALL events and instances in the game, and do so with a full party. Hero’s were AI mobs that you could EARN just by playing the game, and were used to fill in gaps in a party, or just form a full group of your own “Hero” team to play the entire game by yourself if you so chose. The core GW1 game meta WANTED EVERYONE to be able to play, even if the content required a group of 8 to complete it, and even if they were alone, they could use Hero’s. Their marketing design, creating their core players.

Now, they are trying to go hardcore180 degrees opposite, and pushing to require everyone to be in a large guild to get anything at all accomplished. Every angle of the game, now requiring huge groups of people, including having to have a guild hall, and farm tons of materials for it to earn anything for a guild. …Far from having your own group of 23 (? or so) Hero’s to choose from in GW1, to go relax and play on your own schedule. Which IS a part of GW very own history. Anet created it, not the players. They progressed forward and found some balance. Now, it’s tipping over the other way.

Companies need to advance, and improve, and grow. But, when they just start running with their ears folded back because they decided they need to be someplace else, and forget where they came from… Often ends badly.

I just want to play a fun game. Not farm mats for guild halls. Not wait for healers. Not wait for groups of 10. And, FWIW, I will never, ever, watch SOMEONE ELSE PLAYING THE GAME ON E-SPORTS.

Ears folded back… Done reading, done posting, pretty much done playing under the current direction.

Devata.6589:

Draygo.9473:

You have to remember a party of 5 in WvW with the +5 supply camp buff can build one of the following

Build 2 Superior Rams (100 supply)
Build 2 Catapults (100 supply)
Build 1 Trebuchet (100 supply)
Build 2 Superior AC (100 supply)
Build 3 Ballista (90 supply)
Build 2 Superior Ballista (80 supply)
Build 1 Siege Golem (100 supply)

Without resupplying.

This amount of supply lets our groups operate behind the enemy attacking targets and making the enemy defend them or lose them.

Without the buff you have a maximum of 75 supply which is not even enough for 2 regular rams. Being able to quickly build a treb in one go before your enemy can locate and start trebbing you gives you a good head start to any counter trebbing you may do.

Scribing small supply drop is absolutely useless for me. Useless.

Sure, but that is a different discussion. Then the question should be to arrange the upgrades different. No silly talk about making tiers, while there are tiers, or scaling, or as a small guild wanting the same in the same time as a big guild.

So if that are the types of problem small guilds are running into I can understand it. But that’s not what people have been asking for in this thread.

Or the choice of buying a guild that has a focus on one area (which is cheaper) and more expensive other upgrades. Similar to when picking armor/weapon stats.

Sorry I read the first page and I read the first post on the 10th page and it seems the majority of you are oblivious to the main concern of the OP

They had achieved access to content previous to HoT, they paid money expected to achieve access to more content, only to find out that they in fact had lost the progress they already had.

They then continued to express their concerns that making people pay for content in game that they had already earned in game is wrong, it is almost as bad if not worse than resetting a level 80 characters experience and making them level up again from scratch.

If you think the argument here is whether small guilds should have handicaps then you have missed the point entirely and would be better off not sharing your opinion.

Dresdoe.7503:

Sorry I read the first page and I read the first post on the 10th page and it seems the majority of you are oblivious to the main concern of the OP

They had achieved access to content previous to HoT, they paid money expected to achieve access to more content, only to find out that they in fact had lost the progress they already had.

They then continued to express their concerns that making people pay for content in game that they had already earned in game is wrong, it is almost as bad if not worse than resetting a level 80 characters experience and making them level up again from scratch.

If you think the argument here is whether small guilds should have handicaps then you have missed the point entirely and would be better off not sharing your opinion.

Nah, TS is partly responsible for the small guilds argument if you look through the posts.

GreyWolf.8670:

Great. Now not only do I want my guild hall but I want a pool in it. :/

… and a dinner table and a house… and many other totally irrelevant subjects of flawed metaphor.

It comes down to this: the Guild Hall facet of HoT is completely punitive for small guilds. There really is no point in discussion because it’s simply true – no matter how you swing it.

This thread has basically been hijacked by people who want there to be scaling. I am the OP and I say F scaling. This needed to be fair from the start – obtainable in a reasonable amount of time without requiring real money. I don’t care at all how fast big guilds get their Hall’s filled out – they could have them done on day 1( I expected it). For me it’s about the sheer amount of time it would take a small guild (not really even compared to big guilds… Big guilds were only mentioned to emphasize exactly what the focus of this expansion was on, to draw attention to how anet has changed over the years, how they broke promises and how they gave small guilds the middle finger. Individual effort means nothing in guild hall development and access. Someone in a big guild can contribute 3 shovels and some iron and have the same access as I will after donating:

Ancient Wood Plank 1760 / Bolt of Gossamer 1220 / Bolt of Silk 420 / Cured Hardened Leather Square 1860 / Cured Thick Leather Square 8930 / Elder Wood Plank 18400 / Gold Ingot 150 / Green Wood Plank 750 / Hard Wood Plank 750 / Mithril Ingot 21600 / Orichalcum Ingot 2735 / Seasoned Wood Plank 250 / Soft Wood Plank 250 / 18 Slot Invisible Bag 7 / 18 Slot Leather Pack 10 / 18 Slot Mithril Box 9 / 18 Slot Silk Bag 9 / 18 Slot Thick Leather Pack 30 / Bowl of Lotus Stirfry 50 / Bowl of Saffron-Mango Ice Cream 40 / Chocolate Omnomberry Cream 100 / Bloodstone Brick 220 / Bottle of Airship Oil 445 / Bowl of Black Pepper Cactus Salad 80 / Celestial Intricate Gossamer Insignia 6 / Celestial Orichalcum Imbued Inscription 6 / Custom Arena Time Token 15 / Dragonite Ingot 15 / Eggplant 1000 / Elonian Leather Square 55 / Empyreal Star 60 / Essence of Luck (exotic) 1085 / Milling Stone 300 / Mystic Coin 830 / Superior Rune of Speed 6 / Superior Rune of Travel 6 / Unidentified Dye 70 / Ley Line Spark kitten / Ley-Line Infused Tool 625 / Mysitc Crystal 1110 / Obsidian Shard 250 / Pile of Auric Dust 375 / Potion of PvP Reward 720 / Sheet of Coarse Paper 300 / Sheet of Extra Coarse Sandpaper 600 / Sheet of Fine Paper 100 / Sheet of Premium Paper 20 / Sheet of Quality Paper 40 / Sheet of Rough Paper 540 / Sheet of Smooth Paper 80 / Silverwaste Shovel 600 / Tome of Knowledge 610 / Watchwork Portal Device 15 / Empty Keg 270 / Glass Mug 445 / Loaf of Saffron Bread 600 / Meat Pie 200 / Vial of Linseed Oil 1500 / Arrow Cart Blueprints 75 / Badge of Tribute 640 / Ballista Blueprints 75 / Bottle of Elonian Wine 380 / Catapult Blueprints 75 / Choir Bell 100 / Flame Ram Blueprints 75 / Greater Rune of Holding 35 / Jug of Water 100 / Major Rune of Holding 213 / Minor Rune of Holding 20 / Rune of Holding 300 / Superior Rune of Holding 37 / Thermocatalytic Reagent 3450 / Trebuchet Blueprints 75 / Amber Pebble 50 / Amethyst Lumpv 600 / Amethyst Nugget 100 / Ancient Bone 20 / Armored Scale 10 / Beryl Crystal 200 / Beryl Orb 100 / Beryl Shard 200 / Carnelian Lump 100 / Carnelian Nugget 100 / Carrot 2000 / Chrysocola Crystal 200 / Chrysocola Orb 100 / Chrysocola Shard 200 / Copper Ore 200 / Coral Chunk 200 / Coral Orb 100 / Coral Tentacle 200 / Corrupted Lodestone 15 / Destroyer Lodestone 50 / Elaborate Totem 10 / Emeral Crystal 200 / Emerald Orb 600 / Emerald Shard 200 / Foxfire Cluster 15 / Garnet Pebble 50 / Glacial Lodestone 10 / Glob of Ectoplasm 2265 / Intricate Totem 1050 / Iron Ore 400 / Lapis Lump 100 / Lapis Nugget 100 / Large Bone 500 / Large Claw 850 / Large Fang 600 / Large Scale 2000 / Malachite Pebble 50 / Mithril Ore 200 / Molten Lodestone 110 / Omnomberry 300 / Opal Crystal 200 / Opal Orb 950 / Opal Shard 200 / Orichalcum Ore 100 / Pearl 100 / Peridot Lump 100 / Peridot Nugget 100 / Pile of Crystalline Dust 690 / Pile of Incandescent Dust 3580 / Potato 1000 / Potent Venom Sac 750 / Powerful Venom Sac 10 / Quartz Crystal 650 / Ruby Shard 200 / Seaweed 1610 / Silver Ore 200 / Spinel Lump 100 / Spinel Nugget 100 / Sunstone Lump 100 / Thyme Leaf 1000 / Tiger’s Eye Pebble 50 / Turquoise Pebble 50 / Vial of Potent Blood 2000 / Vial of Powerful Blood 40 / Vicious Claw 10 / Vicious Fang 10 / Watchwork Sprocket 1200 / Zucchini 1000

Yep. Totally Fair. Nevermind. This post was totally overreaching….

I understand they needed to add something that would soak up veteran player’s mat and gold pools to kind-of even the playing field for new players, but I think that should have been an individual sink (like the new legendaries (talk about a gold sink)- more skins like that – more weapons with cool particle effects, etc…)