Guild Wars 2

Reading the forums, there are clearly a lot of people who don’t like the idea of losing the skills and traits that they have already unlocked.

However, if the new concept is to provide a finite amount of the hero points needed to buy them with, the only way that unlocked skills and traits could be grandfathered (without breaking the system), would be to place some players in a status of negative hero points.

For example, let’s imagine your level 80 character has unlocked all the skills and traits via purchases and skill tomes, but has zero world completion. By being level 80, they would be entitled to a certain number of hero points, but not enough to buy every single trait and skill that they currently had unlocked.

This character would retain all of the skills and traits that they had previously unlocked, but they would also end up needing to complete enough skill challenges to pay off their `grandfathered` skills, before they are able to unlock any ‘additional’ skills or traits.

The downside to this system, would obviously be that characters with a hero point deficit, are unable to unlock a new elite specialization (and associated skills) until they have paid off the hero point debt in full.

Now I’m not asking for other grandfathering suggestions, this thread is simply to ask one thing?

Would you prefer to have all your skills and traits wiped, and then spend the hero points that you have earned, possibly ending up with less skills and traits than you previously had, but giving you the ability to start working towards the new elite specializations immediately?

Or would you prefer to retain all the skills and traits you’ve unlocked, but possibly be placed into negative hero points, preventing you from unlocking the new specializations until you’d done enough skill challenges to pay off the hero point deficit?

My friend suggested the same thing. Yes, it would mean that our PvP- and WvW-leveled characters are usable to the same degree.

It sort of effectively wouldn’t solve anything as we’d still have to regain the sam 65 hero points before we could even beging to unlock the elite specializations – but I guess from a “legal” point of you we’d lose the right to complain.

It wouldn’t be a great compromise, but it’d shut me up…

A different idea would be to tie additional heropoints to WvW ability tracks or WvW/PvP achievements or something similar. The problem is that all those are currently account bound while heropoints are supposed to be soulbound.

Or to add heropoints to non-repeatable PvP reward tracks (can be repeated once, or x times per character).

Or do something in PvP or WvW that unlocks a certain number heropoints for all new alts.

These options would mean that heropoints would still be finite, but add a few different ways to gain them.

But either way, I’ll probably bite the bullet and just start working on map completion on my 17 alts while watching TV.

Or, Legacy characters would receive Hero Points for all of the skill points currently attached to their character up to the maximum number allowed. Then mark the Hero Points on the map for these characters as complete starting from the low level areas up to the highest. Skill points in excess would still be awarded the new MF currency.

The only adverse effect would be they cannot complete these challenges if they ever feel the need to complete the map as they would already have credit.

Yes, this is ‘unfair’ to those that have completed the map already but all of these legacies would still need to unlock every POI, Vista and Heart.

This has the added benefit that Anet could remove Hero Points from the current map making the maximum number available equal to the maximum number needed to complete a character and new expansions could add new HP that gate progression to new specializations.

Wipe skills and traits, transform the ones already unlocked into Hero Points to spend and let everyone choose their desired items again. Keep it simple so that there isn’t an issue of trying to figure out which skill challenges were previously completed and which weren’t and reduce the volume of forum complaining.

ANET may simply disable the hero points accumulation for the players who already have all the skillpoints necessary to unlock all skills or have all skills/traits unlocked. Hence, doing the hero-points challenge on those toon will just net karma and exp and no additional skill points/hero points.

Unlearning skills/traits to use the new system sounds more like ill-conceived implementation of a poorly thought design.

velmeister.4187:

Unlearning skills/traits to use the new system sounds more like ill-conceived implementation of a poorly thought design.

That’s what they’ll simply do. You’ll have 0 traits, healing, utility and elite skills unlocked after the change. You will be given hero points based on your level and the number of skill challenges you’ve completed. It’s the simplest and easiest implementation.

There’s really no point in grandfathering people in because even with 0 skill challenges completed, you’re only missing 65 points. 65 points is the equivalent of 13 skills, minor or major traits. You’re not using all of these traits and skills now, so why even care that you’ll basically be missing a single trait line and one skill after the patch?

Negative hero points is actually a bad solution. Instead of being given the choice to unlock what you want, you’re now forced to do 65 skill challenges before you can begin working on new specializations.

They could pretend that you’ve already completed skill challenges, but that would add dirty code into the system which will have to stay there forever.

Rather than implementing any of these dirty solutions, they would simply grant you 465 hero points from leveling instead. The catch however is that the elite specialization’s cost would increase to compensate, which is currently 85 hero points, assuming 5 skills and 1 trait line at the standard 5 point unlock rate.

Kaz.5430:

Would you prefer to have all your skills and traits wiped, and then spend the hero points that you have earned, possibly ending up with less skills and traits than you previously had, but giving you the ability to start working towards the new elite specializations immediately?

10000x this. The last thing I want is to get useless traits forced upon me, having to grind loads to pay that ‘dept’ off and only then get access to new, potential meta, traits/skills just because I have all traits unlocked atm. I’m certain I only use 30% of my traits if that, I still unlocked them all, because why not, but never use them (and don’t have the gear to be efficient with them.)

But that’s just me.

Healix.5819:

Negative hero points is actually a bad solution. Instead of being given the choice to unlock what you want, you’re now forced to do 65 skill challenges before you can begin working on new specializations.

I mentioned that as the main downside in the opening post. The answer to that scenario (while still keeping everything simple) might be to allow players to reset their skills and traits when in a state of negative hero points. That way you’ve been fully “grandfathered”, hero points are still limited, but if you don’t want to pay off the deficit, you can make the choice to reset yourself.

Kaz.5430:

Would you prefer to have all your skills and traits wiped, and then spend the hero points that you have earned, possibly ending up with less skills and traits than you previously had, but giving you the ability to start working towards the new elite specializations immediately?

Or would you prefer to retain all the skills and traits you’ve unlocked, but possibly be placed into negative hero points, preventing you from unlocking the new specializations until you’d done enough skill challenges to pay off the hero point deficit?

Neither. If I’m in the hole, and have to earn my way out to progress past what I’ve already got unlocked, then it’s not much different than what seems to be the current, miserable plan, which is to make me earn again what I’ve already unlocked.

Either way, I’d end up going out and chasing skill challenges, not to get some cool new elite specialization, but to get my character back to where it was before ArenaNet decided to reset me.

Kaz.5430:

The answer to that scenario (while still keeping everything simple) might be to allow players to reset their skills and traits when in a state of negative hero points.

Ok, but the catch is, you’re only allowed to reset your progress prior the launch of HoT.

Everyone that was grandfathered in would basically have everything unlocked by default. The system is linear, so it’s simply easier to unlock everything than to support holes. Since everything is already unlocked, there’d be no reason to reset your progress.

The purpose was to keep your progress. You can’t choose to reset that progress in favor of unlocking new progress (elite spec). If they actually allowed you to fully reset your progress as long as you had negative points, why would you ever want points? Keep them negative and enjoy having everything you want unlocked whenever you wanted.

If ArenaNet does anything, they’ll take the simplest solution. Simply change 1-80 from 400 to 465 points. Expect a catch however to balance it out.

As a solution for WvW-only players, I suspect that 1 skill challenge will be worth 5 points, assuming they’re not intentionally wanting them to PvE. If they did that, completing all of them would be worth those missing 65 points and the new borderland would unlock the new elite.

Personally I dislike either option, no offense. I have spent a lot of time getting all my characters leveled up and unlocking all their skills and traits, why should I have to redo that work when a new player can come along and not have to? If it is true that our maxed out characters will have to re-unlock some of our skills again Anet will have a lot of unhappy players on their hands. I can see this getting a similar response to the ascended reaction. It is not much different from a level increase, as it basically undoes some of the work you put into your character(s).

I hope Anet makes the right choice on this. I will carry on regardless, but others will not.

It wont be that hard to get the other hero points you need. You won’t need map completion to do it, so just suck it up and do it.

Healix.5819:

velmeister.4187:

Unlearning skills/traits to use the new system sounds more like ill-conceived implementation of a poorly thought design.

That’s what they’ll simply do. You’ll have 0 traits, healing, utility and elite skills unlocked after the change. You will be given hero points based on your level and the number of skill challenges you’ve completed. It’s the simplest and easiest implementation.

There’s really no point in grandfathering people in because even with 0 skill challenges completed, you’re only missing 65 points. 65 points is the equivalent of 13 skills, minor or major traits. You’re not using all of these traits and skills now, so why even care that you’ll basically be missing a single trait line and one skill after the patch?

Because i worked hard to get them, and really, really wouldn’t like to have my progress removed simply because Anet can’t think of a solution?
(notice: my progress won’t actually be reset, as i have 100% map completion on most of my chars. I can completely understand the feelings of anger of people that will be put in such a situation however)

Healix.5819:

Kaz.5430:

The answer to that scenario (while still keeping everything simple) might be to allow players to reset their skills and traits when in a state of negative hero points.

Ok, but the catch is, you’re only allowed to reset your progress prior the launch of HoT.

But that wouldn’t be fair to players who are not active in the run up to HoT.

Healix.5819:

If ArenaNet does anything, they’ll take the simplest solution. Simply change 1-80 from 400 to 465 points.

Simplest solution is the one everyone is worrying about, resetting everybody’s progress. Your solution, although seemingly simple, still has plenty of downsides.

If levelling up gives all the hero points you need to unlock everything, what then would be the point in hero challenges in the core game? They would be completely pointless

Also, if levelling up to 80 gives enough points for unlocking all the core traits and skills, then anyone with map completion will already have 189 ‘extra’ hero points to spend on the new elite specializations.

That’s probably a huge chunk of the points required (if not more than enough to unlock it all), and would make any new hero challenges in HoT superfluous. I think it would be a great shame if players could unlock HoT elite specializations without needing to play HoT at all.

CrimsonDX.4821:

It wont be that hard to get the other hero points you need. You won’t need map completion to do it, so just suck it up and do it.

I see. So I can come over to your house and walk off with your monitor, and you’ll be fine?

After all, it’d only be a couple days of work to earn back the money to buy a new one. You can just suck it up and do it.

Gibson.4036:

CrimsonDX.4821:

It wont be that hard to get the other hero points you need. You won’t need map completion to do it, so just suck it up and do it.

I see. So I can come over to your house and walk off with your monitor, and you’ll be fine?

After all, it’d only be a couple days of work to earn back the money to buy a new one. You can just suck it up and do it.

Your example is real world theft. This is just a game. example is invalid.

Kaz.5430:

If levelling up gives all the hero points you need to unlock everything, what then would be the point in hero challenges in the core game? They would be completely pointless

In the core game, hero challenges are already practically useless, assuming they evenly distribute the points while leveling, rather than giving you ~200 at 80. You’ll pick your favorite spec and have ~100 points left to spend without doing a single hero challenge. Really, the only purpose of them is to get points faster. The core game is over however, so having too many points doesn’t actually matter.

Every solution will have a catch. Let’s say that unlocking an elite specialization will cost 100 hero points. If they changed leveling from 400 to 465, they would change that elite specialization from 100 to 165. It’s simply a trick to get people complaining about losing progress to lose focus.

CrimsonDX.4821:

Your example is real world theft. This is just a game. example is invalid.

Ah, good point. So if my character could access your bank and pull stuff out of it, that would be all right. Why don’t we pretend?

You send me a couple dozen ecto. You can just suck it up and go farm and salvage some more rares.

why not just making it so that when you have a grandfathered character with all skills and traits unlocked you get just as much hero points to get back to what you already have.
however, hero point challenges don’t work the same as normal, instead of giving you a hero point you get nothing.

so instead of setting characters back, you remain as powerful as before (or better, depends on how the new system improves us) but challenges do nothing to these characters.

Gibson.4036:

CrimsonDX.4821:

Your example is real world theft. This is just a game. example is invalid.

Ah, good point. So if my character could access your bank and pull stuff out of it, that would be all right. Why don’t we pretend?

You send me a couple dozen ecto. You can just suck it up and go farm and salvage some more rares.

Why does this in any way relate to the topic at hand?

Personally?

Convert all the standing SP to the new currency. Wipe the slate, and tabulate how many hero points each of my chars has. Then let me go through and select what I want with the hero points I have available.

Since I have plenty of time before this is implemented, I can take my assorted characters out around the world and do enough skill challenges to make sure I have all 465 points when the patch hits. It’s really not that hard, or time consuming (this coming from someone that has extremely limited time to play…and a dozen 80s to take out to gather points). It’s not a big deal.

I do not think it is right to make players unlock stuff again, that they had already unlocked previously. That said, we do not yet know exactly how Anet will handle fully unlocked characters. They have been typically political with their wording, so for all we know it may be we have nothing to worry about.

Until we get some more details on this I am not going worry too much. They did not force us to re-unlock things the last time they changes the traits system, so I would be surprised if they do this time round. I think we are just trying to read too much into vague words said in the AMA video and overreacting as per usual.

Sleepcoma.9487:

Wipe skills and traits, transform the ones already unlocked into Hero Points to spend and let everyone choose their desired items again. Keep it simple so that there isn’t an issue of trying to figure out which skill challenges were previously completed and which weren’t and reduce the volume of forum complaining.

That’s kinda what people are dreading, their “complete” (from a trait/skills standpoint) characters suddenly becoming not because they haven’t done at least 65 skill challenges on that character yet.

Personally I agree with the OP, negative hero points seems like the best compromise; those with their skills and traits unlocked get to keep them, and when HoT comes out and everyone is working towards the elite specializations, new characters won’t be punished for not being made before the specialization change was in effect because their skill/trait progress wasn’t grandfathered in as extra hero points.

CrimsonDX.4821:

Gibson.4036:

CrimsonDX.4821:

Your example is real world theft. This is just a game. example is invalid.

Ah, good point. So if my character could access your bank and pull stuff out of it, that would be all right. Why don’t we pretend?

You send me a couple dozen ecto. You can just suck it up and go farm and salvage some more rares.

Why does this in any way relate to the topic at hand?

You dismissed people complaining about having to go back and earn things they already earned. You said people should just suck it up.

I was curious how committed you are to the attitude that because it’s a videogame, if something we earned is taken away, we should just suck it up and go back out and earn it again.

I eagerly await your mail with two dozen ecto.

i want my toons grandfathered into the new system of course, but im under the impression that just being level 80 will be good enough.

but, of course, i want my toons grandfathered in.

Kaz.5430:

Would you prefer to have all your skills and traits wiped, and then spend the hero points that you have earned, possibly ending up with less skills and traits than you previously had, but giving you the ability to start working towards the new elite specializations immediately?

Or would you prefer to retain all the skills and traits you’ve unlocked, but possibly be placed into negative hero points, preventing you from unlocking the new specializations until you’d done enough skill challenges to pay off the hero point deficit?

I would like the option to reset hero challenges and re-lock my skills, traits, etc. so that I do not have to make a brand new character to experience the new unlocking experience.

If it is enforced on all characters, I won’t complain – it’d give me goals to go after, after all – but I’d rather not see the massive whining that’ll happen without a doubt.

Of course, if there’s nothing special and lore-based needing to be done for unlocking the core specializations like they’ve implied will exist for elite specializations, then that desire to redo goes down a lot.

The ideal situation, as I see it, however, would be to relock and have everything carry over so that one can experience the unlocking system but not have to actually do the actions to be able to unlock stuff.