Guild Wars 2

Bloodstealer.5978:

maddoctor.2738:

Broom.2561:

By far most of them had a system in place that allowed even small guilds to progress, with requirements proportionate to their size.

Requirements proportionate to guild size won’t work. Find another solution

Yes they do and many other MMO’s have had such systems in place for years.. just takse someone to utilise a bit of creative thinking and know a bit about what an MMO’s is and how they work when balanced a whole lot better than what we have had pushed out with this expac – binkers off please and try thinking outside that little box.

Excuse me but “other MMO’s have had such systems” isn’t an argument. Post those great systems instead so we can have an actual discussion.

FogLeg.9354:

maddoctor.2738:

Requirements proportionate to guild size won’t work. Find another solution

Fine, you will not like it, but it will still work:

• all contribution to guild hall is tied to the player account. This means every time you put materials into upgrades your account gets “guild points” (based on their value in TP). This value is visible to all guild members

• players may be part of many guilds but their GP only apply to one guild (you can pick which one)

• if player leaves the guild, all his GP is reduced from overall guild upgrade points. In case of important member of smaller guild, a lot of guild upgrades may be lost. It wont be 100% of your contributed materials, but high enough, lets say 90%

• if new player joins the guild (or assigns the GP to current guild), these GP can be used instead of upgrade materials to pay for guild upgrades

• number of maximum guild members is equal to the guild level. Level 2 guild can only have 2 members, and those 2 need to pay for enough upgrades to reach level 3 before they can add another member. Level 20 guild can have 20 members, level 40 guild 40 members. After reaching maximum upgrades, guild can continue to raise its level to increase number of members (each extra member slot will cost more materials/GP)

The benefits compared to current system:

• guilds will grow naturally
• instead of throwing materials away into endless hole, everyone is raising their account value when contributing to guild upgrades
• people can easily switch guilds, start new guilds, merge or split guilds
• guild size and guild level are now same thing

You get guild points in the form of commendations what is more accessible to all players, not only those who prefer a game-play that gets them a lot of mats.

And how about those donating mats to people who have the required craft to make the materials a guild needs?

Not to mention that guilds might now want to keep old guild members who donated a lot but have left the game, in the guild because else they lose points.

Also you keep the problem that guilds might now be pushed to kick people who don’t donate a lot.. While that might not be a problem by itself because they might contribute to a guild in other ways. But that then suddenly does not have any value anymore.. It’s all about getting the mats.

Lastly I don’t see how this makes a difference for small guilds vs big ones when comparing it to the current system.

OP, the did state before HoT was launched that the Arena, or any guild hall things, would REQUIRE the Expansion. Don’t blame them for not letting you know, when they did.

As far as a depression? I thought this would be about the state of the economy. I thought this would be about how the game is a gold sink. No, your argument only points to Guild Halls. That’s it. Yes, Ghalls are a gold sink. They are in every game. But that doesn’t make a depression. The economy is crashing super hard. It is very difficult to make money in this game now. But not because of ghalls. Your argument is flawed.

You waited 5 mins before re-posting your reply to him, this isn’t a real-time chat system!

tluv.5821:

OP, the did state before HoT was launched that the Arena, or any guild hall things, would REQUIRE the Expansion. Don’t blame them for not letting you know, when they did.

Requiring HOT to carry on with what you’d earned before and actually destroying what went before it isn’t the same thing.

Also, I have no idea where that information was given but it was part of any pre-release hype from Anet that I saw.

Azure Prower.8701:

More and more the game seems only for those who are willing to spend ten hours a day farming materials or willing to pull out the wallet and buy your way to progress.

Free to play in a nut shell.

I think there’s a glut of items. Some people have banks saved up full of stacks. Arenanet have put in a system for removing those stacks from people that has a one-off cost. It sort of makes sense when seen in this context. I am sad for tiny guilds and new players, though.

Broom.2561:

It worked just fine in other games. I don’t really see the problem. If games 10+ years old managed, GW2 should be able to do the same. Exploiting the system could be easily prevented too… grow too fast after completing upgrades? Tsk, your upgrades just went unavailable till you pay the surplus due.

What? Are you seriously advocating for a system that would encourage guilds to charge a recruitment fee? Do you have any idea how incredibly unhealthy that would be for the game’s community?

CureForLiving.5360:

maddoctor.2738:

Broom.2561:

By far most of them had a system in place that allowed even small guilds to progress, with requirements proportionate to their size.

Requirements proportionate to guild size won’t work. Find another solution

But it would be a great way of punishing large guild and systematically ensuring that large guilds are avoided. Actually no this is a great system. You get like 200 people, make a 5 man guild, get all 200 people to send their mats to those 5 people and bang you have all your upgrades in no time. Obviously after your upgrades are done you invite the other 195 people into the guild cause at that point size doesn’t matter anymore.

So making a system that disproportionate affects small guilds is okay b/c large guild would exploit the system? Why not monitor guilds for exploiting and punish those that do. If a guild is found to exploit remove ill gained upgrades and make them start over.

Tigaseye.2047:

The thing is, we’re all being treated like we have paid the bare minimum for all this, over the last 3 years.

But, some of us haven’t.

Oh I haven’t been playing for 3 years. I’ve been playing off and on for since late January. Seriously try explaining to vets how expensive things are now, and you will get no sympathy. Like dyes? Some of them are 10 to 20 times more expensive than they were when people started 3 years ago. And people just tell me, well don’t buy it. So I don’t get to look cool? Like you? Because I started later? Or how about gold to gem conversions? Also very pricey. Runes? Good ones are expensive and I can’t really go out and farm the materials for them. Some of them I can’t even make because the recipes only existed in certain events.

I have grinded my butt off to get what I have, I have converted over 1500g, 400g worth of dyes and the entire collection of dyes costs 6900, and thrown about 70 dollars at the game(no expansion yet.) And I still feel like I’m behind. I haven’t bothered crafting ascended gear because it costs as much or nearly a precursor at this point. Not very fun.

Zaklex.6308:

Obviously no one understands that NO guild was meant to unlock everything in the Guild Hall within the first week or even first 3 weeks. The Guild Hall is a LONG TERM investment, which means small guilds NEED to spread the cost out over MONTHS and not look at weeks. That is how it’s set up currently and I highly doubt it will change.

No, EVERYONE understands that.

Correction: there might be some 5 year old somewhere who doesn’t (bless him, or her).

The rest of us understand that perfectly well.

The point is, most of it isn’t worth it and if you are a member of a tiny guild (especially a one-person guild), you have no hope at all of unlocking it, ever.

Or, more to the point, as tiny guilds don’t actually need to unlock a massive guild hall, for the hall itself; you have no chance at all of getting back what you had already acquired and lost, in terms of upgrades, or what you were already in the process of working on.

Whether you want the actual guild hall “building” (if you can even call them that?), or not.

Quite frankly, all “guild halls” could spontaneously combust, for all I care.

I think they’re boring and lazily designed.

I just want to be able to build up my little guild and unlock the last bank tab, with influence, as I was perfectly happily in the process of doing, before.

…and other people, with tiny guilds, who had already done that, just want the other things they had already acquired to still be available to them.

Without these, largely pointless, artificial gold-sink wind-tunnels, that are the “guild halls” getting in the way.

Coyote.7031:

Tigaseye.2047:

The thing is, we’re all being treated like we have paid the bare minimum for all this, over the last 3 years.

But, some of us haven’t.

Oh I haven’t been playing for 3 years. I’ve been playing off and on for since late January. Seriously try explaining to vets how expensive things are now, and you will get no sympathy. Like dyes? Some of them are 10 to 20 times more expensive than they were when people started 3 years ago. And people just tell me, well don’t buy it. So I don’t get to look cool? Like you? Because I started later? Or how about gold to gem conversions? Also very pricey. Runes? Good ones are expensive and I can’t really go out and farm the materials for them. Some of them I can’t even make because the recipes only existed in certain events.

I have grinded my butt off to get what I have, I have converted over 1500g, 400g worth of dyes and the entire collection of dyes costs 6900, and thrown about 70 dollars at the game(no expansion yet.) And I still feel like I’m behind. I haven’t bothered crafting ascended gear because it costs as much or nearly a precursor at this point. Not very fun.

I know.

I started in January, as well.

Let’s just say I’ve spent far too much money, already.

Not anywhere near the amount the guy who left, recently, saying he’d spent “tens of thousands” spent, but still far too much for the amount of months played.

..,and then they do this.

Like we’ve all had a practically free ride for 3 years, or are F2P players.

Tigaseye.2047:

I know.

I started in January, as well.

Let’s just say I’ve spent far too much money, already.

Not anywhere near the amount the guy who left, recently, saying he’d spent “tens of thousands” spent, but still far too much for the amount of months played.

..,and then they do this.

Like we’ve all had a practically free ride for 3 years, or are F2P players.

It’s easy to spend money on GW2. Very easy, so I do not blame you at all. I just flat out refuse to buy certain things in the store or gem to gold convert. I keep myself on a very strict budget when gaming, just so I don’t do something like naughty like “Screw it, buy all the things!” Which I have done in the past in other games. /cough

tluv.5821:

OP, the did state before HoT was launched that the Arena, or any guild hall things, would REQUIRE the Expansion. Don’t blame them for not letting you know, when they did.

As far as a depression? I thought this would be about the state of the economy. I thought this would be about how the game is a gold sink. No, your argument only points to Guild Halls. That’s it. Yes, Ghalls are a gold sink. They are in every game. But that doesn’t make a depression. The economy is crashing super hard. It is very difficult to make money in this game now. But not because of ghalls. Your argument is flawed.

I’m making about 100g a day simply by doing a few material conversions. Then I go and enjoy the rest of the game. Making gold isn’t hard, its just not the way people want to.

Coyote.7031:

Tigaseye.2047:

The thing is, we’re all being treated like we have paid the bare minimum for all this, over the last 3 years.

But, some of us haven’t.

Oh I haven’t been playing for 3 years. I’ve been playing off and on for since late January. Seriously try explaining to vets how expensive things are now, and you will get no sympathy. Like dyes? Some of them are 10 to 20 times more expensive than they were when people started 3 years ago. And people just tell me, well don’t buy it. So I don’t get to look cool? Like you? Because I started later? Or how about gold to gem conversions? Also very pricey. Runes? Good ones are expensive and I can’t really go out and farm the materials for them. Some of them I can’t even make because the recipes only existed in certain events.

I have grinded my butt off to get what I have, I have converted over 1500g, 400g worth of dyes and the entire collection of dyes costs 6900, and thrown about 70 dollars at the game(no expansion yet.) And I still feel like I’m behind. I haven’t bothered crafting ascended gear because it costs as much or nearly a precursor at this point. Not very fun.

“and thrown about 70 dollars at the game” Don’t blame Anet for a system YOU created.

Your complains are valid, however you are one of the persons creating this system.

Devata.6589:

Coyote.7031:

Tigaseye.2047:

The thing is, we’re all being treated like we have paid the bare minimum for all this, over the last 3 years.

But, some of us haven’t.

Oh I haven’t been playing for 3 years. I’ve been playing off and on for since late January. Seriously try explaining to vets how expensive things are now, and you will get no sympathy. Like dyes? Some of them are 10 to 20 times more expensive than they were when people started 3 years ago. And people just tell me, well don’t buy it. So I don’t get to look cool? Like you? Because I started later? Or how about gold to gem conversions? Also very pricey. Runes? Good ones are expensive and I can’t really go out and farm the materials for them. Some of them I can’t even make because the recipes only existed in certain events.

I have grinded my butt off to get what I have, I have converted over 1500g, 400g worth of dyes and the entire collection of dyes costs 6900, and thrown about 70 dollars at the game(no expansion yet.) And I still feel like I’m behind. I haven’t bothered crafting ascended gear because it costs as much or nearly a precursor at this point. Not very fun.

“and thrown about 70 dollars at the game” Don’t blame Anet for a system YOU created.

Your complains are valid, however you are one of the persons creating this system.

No, they didn’t.

The “system” was already in place and they just utilised it.

How long do you think this game, really, would have existed, if absolutely no one had ever bought anything from the gemstore (or wherever) for real money?

I know they called it “B2P”, but it blatantly was never actually just that.

Otherwise, why on earth can we buy gems and either use them in the gemstore, or convert them to gold?

In a sub game, like Wow, you might have a point; but this is not and has never been a sub game.

Honestly, I love the upgrade to the guild system. My contribution (and those of my guild members) give us tangible, and permanent, rewards. Sure it’s a lot of work, trying to organize and fund it all; but I honestly think that it’s worth it.

That being said, there are a couple of things I think should be added:

-I really really really miss the mechanic where questing together (with other guild mates) produced guild currency. I don’t see why this side of Influence needed to be taken out. Why not let us earn some influence that we can use for that little boost? Let us by Guild Upgrade mats with commendations? In general, the upgrade has forced guilds to work together, but has stopped rewarding having FUN together.

-Upgrades really are expensive and take time. To me, this is fine as you’re investing in something permanent. BUT, I do think there should be other options.
My personal belief, in this respect, is a temporary version of the final upgrade. This would be a cheaper version than the permanent one, but would last per use or for a limited time. This (in my opinion) would allow smaller guilds (or less focused PvX guilds) to have access to an important mechanic while working towards the permanent upgrade.

-Aetherium / Favor cap & rush. Again, I’m fine with how everything takes time. It’s turned my guild hall into a project that, when I upgrade it, I am really excited for. However, there are several downsides. Namely, when my aetherium reaches Cap. . .I HAVE to buy something or I lose aetherium. To me, this poses several problems.
First is just general timing; I have had to wake up at 3 and 4 am to press the approve upgrade button, or sneak on while at work to do the same. I have some members who are on at odd hours and can help. . . but not always.
Second, the mad scramble for mats to meet the upgrade at Aetherium Cap. I need this upgrade, and I have the aetherium for it, but I’m missing a handful of Linseed oil. Sure, i’ll have it by reset, but that’s 4 hours of aetherium loss. I can either, take the loss. Or, I can drop cash on the TP to get those final mats I need in time. This also provides a huge portion (again in my opinion) to smaller guilds who, for not being able to purchase an upgrade are losing days and weeks of production and getting pushed back even further.
Finally, it also affects missions; My guild used to do most of our missions on Sundays. We can’t anymore, because Mission reset is 1am for most of us Monday morning, and we need favor throughout the week. We’ve managed due to very carefully scheduling upgrades to cost more aetherium than favor, leaving us a surplus of favor at the end of the week, allowing missions to be pushed back. It was a pain in the rear, and lead to some weird upgrades.

We can’t get rid of the Aetherium Cap; that’s half of the Mine’s purpose. However, we could modify it.
A partial solution would be a small increase in the Cap, just to have some wiggle room (aetherium cap is generally around the same as the big upgrades you’re currently working on).
Another option would be a Queuing system. You add the upgrade to your queue, when all mats are earned, it automatically is purchased.

A larger change could be alter the aetherium cap from how much you can hold, to how much you can spend at once. This would still gate the upgrades; you can’t buy the larger ones until you upgrade the mine, but wouldn’t punish those who want (or have) to take their time.

Some random thoughts:
A lot of people mention they want to tie upgrade cost to guild size. Personally, I don’t like this idea. I have a lot of guildies that are casual; they work two jobs or are at college and have other priorities. I wouldn’t want to kick them just because they can’t pull their weight. They give when they can but life has limited what they can give to GW2.
Despite my misgivings; a potential solution would be to tie upgrade cost to license size. License size is (for those who don’t know) the maximum amount of people allowed in your guild. This would provide a tangible level for upgrades to exist at, and limit growth after: To increase your license size, you have to pay for the upgrade cost difference.

Scribing: IMO, this should be entirely guild bound. It doesn’t make sense in anyway as a personal crafting profession. Regardless of cost; 90% of what you make requires access to guild stores for mats or the produced item goes directly to the guild. at level 139, I’ve unlocked 2 types of personal consumables; one is a personal upgrade, one is a ‘banquet’ version of the personal upgrade.

Guild Achievements: tying into the EXP of the guild, it would be fun to see an activity based way to improve guilds. This could include challenges that provide rewards directly to the guild based on what the challenge was. I.E. a guild group capturing (not claiming) a Keep would provide materials into the treasury for Keep Claiming. These could be one time rewards or weekly, just some way for guild members to work together to directly benefit the guild. This would allow smaller guilds a way to earn some extra mats, as well as letting specifically oriented guilds earn mats by doing what they focus on.

Treasury Organization. My guild is at 23ish now. We have unlocked Tier 2 of everything but the Workshop. The number of mats in the treasury are STAGGERING. There are over 82 types of materials needed for the guild hall, but some of them are for upgrades my guild doesn’t want. Further, we’ve got an upgrade that won’t unlock for another level or two that we want to start collecting mats for. . . but can’t put into the treasury yet. I’ve purchased a guild site subscription just so that I can keep my members up to date on what the guild actually needs.

Cost / Return scaling. Some of the upgrades are horrendously expensive, and give jack for returns. Some of this, of course, is just due to the market fluctuations. But. . 100 linseed oil, 100 Extra Coarse Sandpaper, 500 Elder Wood Planks, 5 Dragonite ingots for Decoration Merchant one: which lets you access the Basket, Bookshelf, Chair, Crate, and Table. Don’t get me wrong; upgrades shouldn’t be easy. But some of the early upgrades are astounding in cost, and some have absolutely no worth, except as a prereq for another upgrade.

Trading Post. Please. I understand Anet doesn’t want to make towns obsolete, but adding a trading post to the guild hall isn’t going to break the game.

Anyway, sorry ‘bout the long post. . . I’m at work and suffering GW2 withdrawal.

Devata.6589:

“and thrown about 70 dollars at the game” Don’t blame Anet for a system YOU created.

Your complains are valid, however you are one of the persons creating this system.

On no I’m a horrible person for supporting the game. Oh evil of me for wanting things like character slots and bank storage!

Coyote.7031:

I haven’t bothered crafting ascended gear because it costs as much or nearly a precursor at this point. Not very fun.

This is probably my biggest issue with the expansion: Lets DOUBLE the cost of ascended. . . and make it necessary for Raids! woohooo!

Currently the best way to get ascended (cheapest / guaranteed) is to farm the raid. Can’t farm the raid without ascended.

Tigaseye.2047:

Devata.6589:

Coyote.7031:

Tigaseye.2047:

The thing is, we’re all being treated like we have paid the bare minimum for all this, over the last 3 years.

But, some of us haven’t.

Oh I haven’t been playing for 3 years. I’ve been playing off and on for since late January. Seriously try explaining to vets how expensive things are now, and you will get no sympathy. Like dyes? Some of them are 10 to 20 times more expensive than they were when people started 3 years ago. And people just tell me, well don’t buy it. So I don’t get to look cool? Like you? Because I started later? Or how about gold to gem conversions? Also very pricey. Runes? Good ones are expensive and I can’t really go out and farm the materials for them. Some of them I can’t even make because the recipes only existed in certain events.

I have grinded my butt off to get what I have, I have converted over 1500g, 400g worth of dyes and the entire collection of dyes costs 6900, and thrown about 70 dollars at the game(no expansion yet.) And I still feel like I’m behind. I haven’t bothered crafting ascended gear because it costs as much or nearly a precursor at this point. Not very fun.

“and thrown about 70 dollars at the game” Don’t blame Anet for a system YOU created.

Your complains are valid, however you are one of the persons creating this system.

No, they didn’t.

The “system” was already in place and they just utilised it.

How long do you think this game, really, would have existed, if absolutely no one had ever bought anything from the gemstore (or wherever) for real money?

I know they called it “B2P”, but it blatantly was never actually just that.

Otherwise, why on earth can we buy gems and either use them in the gemstore, or convert them to gold?

Because why buy gold from gold sellers which can get you banned or hacked, when you can just buy gold from the company itself?

Red Mistress Denna.9804:

Coyote.7031:

I haven’t bothered crafting ascended gear because it costs as much or nearly a precursor at this point. Not very fun.

This is probably my biggest issue with the expansion: Lets DOUBLE the cost of ascended. . . and make it necessary for Raids! woohooo!

Currently the best way to get ascended (cheapest / guaranteed) is to farm the raid. Can’t farm the raid without ascended.

The other part because of ascended mats getting expensive is there is more of a demand. Guild halls needs ascended mats, and precursor crafting, plus ascended weapons and armor.

The problem is, the increased demand greatly, but didn’t improve supply at all. This needs to change somehow.

I couldn’t put it better, OP. Excellent, thorough analysis of where HoT went off the rails and how it can partially be fixed.

Serophous.9085:

Red Mistress Denna.9804:

Coyote.7031:

I haven’t bothered crafting ascended gear because it costs as much or nearly a precursor at this point. Not very fun.

This is probably my biggest issue with the expansion: Lets DOUBLE the cost of ascended. . . and make it necessary for Raids! woohooo!

Currently the best way to get ascended (cheapest / guaranteed) is to farm the raid. Can’t farm the raid without ascended.

The other part because of ascended mats getting expensive is there is more of a demand. Guild halls needs ascended mats, and precursor crafting, plus ascended weapons and armor.

The problem is, the increased demand greatly, but didn’t improve supply at all. This needs to change somehow.

Definitely a good point. I just had to drop 50 elonian squares into my guild hall for the Workshop 2 upgrade I’m buying tomorrow morning.

I was lucky that several of my members had been hoarding, and were willing to donate.

Serophous.9085:

Tigaseye.2047:

Devata.6589:

Coyote.7031:

Tigaseye.2047:

The thing is, we’re all being treated like we have paid the bare minimum for all this, over the last 3 years.

But, some of us haven’t.

Oh I haven’t been playing for 3 years. I’ve been playing off and on for since late January. Seriously try explaining to vets how expensive things are now, and you will get no sympathy. Like dyes? Some of them are 10 to 20 times more expensive than they were when people started 3 years ago. And people just tell me, well don’t buy it. So I don’t get to look cool? Like you? Because I started later? Or how about gold to gem conversions? Also very pricey. Runes? Good ones are expensive and I can’t really go out and farm the materials for them. Some of them I can’t even make because the recipes only existed in certain events.

I have grinded my butt off to get what I have, I have converted over 1500g, 400g worth of dyes and the entire collection of dyes costs 6900, and thrown about 70 dollars at the game(no expansion yet.) And I still feel like I’m behind. I haven’t bothered crafting ascended gear because it costs as much or nearly a precursor at this point. Not very fun.

“and thrown about 70 dollars at the game” Don’t blame Anet for a system YOU created.

Your complains are valid, however you are one of the persons creating this system.

No, they didn’t.

The “system” was already in place and they just utilised it.

How long do you think this game, really, would have existed, if absolutely no one had ever bought anything from the gemstore (or wherever) for real money?

I know they called it “B2P”, but it blatantly was never actually just that.

Otherwise, why on earth can we buy gems and either use them in the gemstore, or convert them to gold?

Because why buy gold from gold sellers which can get you banned or hacked, when you can just buy gold from the company itself?

Yes, I’m not actually questioning why they let us buy gold.

That is pretty obvious.

It may be partly for that reason, but it is mainly to allow Anet to make some extra income.

When a game like WoW charges a sub, I have no problem with a company like Anet, who only charge for the original game/xpac otherwise, charging for some cosmetic stuff.

Which people can choose to buy, or not.

I do have a problem with people being able to effectively (or literally) buy ascended/legendary stuff, but that is probably for another thread.

I also have a problem with stuff that people have worked for (or even purchased) just being arbitrarily removed.

If it was for some “greater good” of the game, then fair enough.

But it, clearly, isn’t.

+1 for the OP, spot on.

This expansion has completely done a 180 against everything Anet said they were against.

Increased gold sinks, nerf income, nerf rewards.

Increased the crafting mats needed, nerfed the drops.

Shallow on content, hidden behind an artificial grind.

Completely destroyed dungeons and wvw & guilds.

Welcome to ftp, it’s almost like someone is trying to copy TRIONS business model, barf.

SLOW CLAP….. On becoming another cash shop mmo.

Im not happy with this goldsink. Im not happy with anything atm in this game. Only thing i look forward to right now is living world 3. Oh and let me just mention that the gems dont drop in price fast enough equal to our gold income.

I have my fears that HoT is a short term money grab by Anet who has plans to taper off GW2 content in the near future. This whole setup of sinking thousands and thousands of gold into guild halls and other things just seems off.

- WvW is dying a quick death because of the guild hall requirements, the new map, nerfing of siege, auto upgrading, and tougher lords; it seems like Anet is TRYING to destroy WvW.

- HoT content (map for map) is only about 2 times bigger than Living Story 2 content, which we got for free. And only 3 of the 4 maps are “playable” and fun. Should’nt an expansion be almost as a large as the original map if we are paying the same price as the original game?

- I read that a group took 35 straight hours to finish the Raid; yeah that sounds like fun. Oh and you need multiple sets of equipment depending on the boss, so go out and craft those hugely expensive multiple sets of armor, runes, and sigils!

- Guild upgrades, scribing, WvW upgrades, precursor crafting, and general equipment creation are all HUGE gold sinks now; realistically the only way to get things done in this lifetime with all the reward nerfs is to convert gems to gold and buy materials. This points strongly to a money grab theory.

I know for a fact that this content has turned off guild members and smaller guilds (primarily havoc WvW guilds).

Anet should be concerned about losing players due to HoT, unless my original theory is correct and Anet does’nt really care about losing players after this one last money grab.

Serophous.9085:

Red Mistress Denna.9804:

Coyote.7031:

I haven’t bothered crafting ascended gear because it costs as much or nearly a precursor at this point. Not very fun.

This is probably my biggest issue with the expansion: Lets DOUBLE the cost of ascended. . . and make it necessary for Raids! woohooo!

Currently the best way to get ascended (cheapest / guaranteed) is to farm the raid. Can’t farm the raid without ascended.

The other part because of ascended mats getting expensive is there is more of a demand. Guild halls needs ascended mats, and precursor crafting, plus ascended weapons and armor.

The problem is, the increased demand greatly, but didn’t improve supply at all. This needs to change somehow.

I find it hilarious that people are complaining things are to expensive and they don’t have enough gold and then screaming that they should nerf the biggest source of free gold for poor players in the game. It’s like a kid who wants to run around with scissors and then throws a tantrum when the parents save the kids life.

On the good side, in the next expansion, even the larger guilds won’t be large enough. So they will have all the items they have unlocked striped away and made impossible to get until they form a new even larger guild.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Serophous.9085:

Red Mistress Denna.9804:

Coyote.7031:

I haven’t bothered crafting ascended gear because it costs as much or nearly a precursor at this point. Not very fun.

This is probably my biggest issue with the expansion: Lets DOUBLE the cost of ascended. . . and make it necessary for Raids! woohooo!

Currently the best way to get ascended (cheapest / guaranteed) is to farm the raid. Can’t farm the raid without ascended.

The other part because of ascended mats getting expensive is there is more of a demand. Guild halls needs ascended mats, and precursor crafting, plus ascended weapons and armor.

The problem is, the increased demand greatly, but didn’t improve supply at all. This needs to change somehow.

I find it hilarious that people are complaining things are to expensive and they don’t have enough gold and then screaming that they should nerf the biggest source of free gold for poor players in the game. It’s like a kid who wants to run around with scissors and then throws a tantrum when the parents save the kids life.

Just curious. . .what’s the biggest source of free gold?

maddoctor.2738:

Bloodstealer.5978:

maddoctor.2738:

Broom.2561:

By far most of them had a system in place that allowed even small guilds to progress, with requirements proportionate to their size.

Requirements proportionate to guild size won’t work. Find another solution

Yes they do and many other MMO’s have had such systems in place for years.. just takse someone to utilise a bit of creative thinking and know a bit about what an MMO’s is and how they work when balanced a whole lot better than what we have had pushed out with this expac – binkers off please and try thinking outside that little box.

Excuse me but “other MMO’s have had such systems” isn’t an argument. Post those great systems instead so we can have an actual discussion.

I already have in numerous other threads… answering the same question over and over begins to be a bit bind.. or should I say grind.. cos that’s what this has become.. grindwars to re-gather what was taken away.. that’s if you can…
Guild incentive systems have been implemented in lots of MMO’s ever since I can remember… it’s not rocket science.
You seem to have a problem thinking a guild can just recruit anyone (which they do already) in order to farm the necessaries to upgrade then boot everyone and say thanks… isn’t that what guilds have been doing since the dawn of GW2 in order to gain influence.
If a guild chooses to recruit up in order to meet the costs/efforts required to have the biggest mansion and the most upgrades, then so be it that’s up to them and those that want to be a number – if after all that they suddenly boot 90% of the guild well that’s the risk you take when you become a number in a faceless guild and its been done prior to HoT.
By have entry points and scaled costs/efforts means that everyone has inclusion to the content, the system and don’t have to spend their lifetime grinding it excessively in order to keep up with large guild that can push it through in 100x faster
No one wants any size of guilds to have it easy but by the same token it should not be all but unobtainable to others and scaling and tiering brings a way of balancing that out fairly.

As I said not everyone wants to be a number in a large guild, many guilds like my own and others we alliance with prefer to run in smaller groups so that we can all run the content together.. lets see that happen in a 500 man guild.. you cant, best we get now is openworld zergs and 10-man raids, heck you can’t even pvp together… how is that creating a community. I have more respect for community PUG guilds that go out and organise TEQ or 3HW.

Agreed. The cost of guild hall upgrades is beyond crazy and a MASSIVE gold sink. The same thing with Ascended stuff now… You need ascended now for the raid, so we’ll double the price of obtaining it. Cha.. Ching! gotta get those gems and convert to gold so I can buy my superior stuff….

Celtic Lady.3729:

Smooth Penguin.5294:

It’s not fair for small guilds to get cheaper upgrades over larger guilds.

I disagree. Upgrades for a guild should be based on percentages that directly relate to a guild’s size or activity level. What’s not fair is for small guilds to carry the same weight as much larger guilds.

And I think it’s a bad idea overall to discourage smaller guilds. The world is big enough (or should be) for both types of groups.

This is a double edge sword.

Lets assume you are leader of a large guild and upgrading it would cost 1 million gold (due to your epic size). now your friend is in a 2 person guild with his wife and it only costs him 100 gold to upgrade it, because its a proportional system.

Step 1 Create a new guild with you and your officer
Step 2 pay 100 gold to upgrade
Step 3 Migrate your Epic guild (weeding out the inactives)
Step 4….
Step 5 Profit.

My opinion on guilds.
It should have been time based
I am in a 12 man guild, its small. its friendly, its fun and we play other games together too. the guild has been active since launch. I think that if we are active and participate, then we should be able to progress in our guild updates at a reasonable pace.

Instead of Material requirements it could have been event based.
just like claiming the guild hall that required a “mission” the same should have happened with the upgrades. For the Mine, you need to clear out caves of bats, kill the boss, hire some miners. Every week (guild hall mission) you need to clear out the mine as a mission to keep mining. im just brainstorming here.
have 3 missions, 1 to keep getting ressources, 1 to upgrade the hall and 1 to defend the hall.

The problem with the current system is that you have to pick either you or the guild. (this system is worse on pvp where you have to sacrifice your own character development) Our new members (like new to guild wars)

I will never feel right asking them to dish out their own gold and materials for the guild. On the other hand i would use them as meatshields in a mission. In all seriousness the new recruit would have more fun being part of a mission (scale them to 80 like in WvW) than having to farm materials and then give them to the guild instead of leveling their crafting or selling them for some cashy cash

On the plus side, I’m making a killing selling mats… like low level leather exploded in price. Now is a good time to complete maps level 20-50 or level a character.

Also, if you farm SW, you can open the bags on a 20-50 character for those low level mats.

They had half the content they needed, so they made time gates, artificial difficulty, gold sinc and everything they could to make sure people would not rush through the content. Problem is, many people are just completely discouraged by it (specially when after an entire night in WvW you actually lose gold instead of making some), so I think that strategy won’t work.

Tigaseye.2047:

Devata.6589:

Coyote.7031:

Tigaseye.2047:

The thing is, we’re all being treated like we have paid the bare minimum for all this, over the last 3 years.

But, some of us haven’t.

Oh I haven’t been playing for 3 years. I’ve been playing off and on for since late January. Seriously try explaining to vets how expensive things are now, and you will get no sympathy. Like dyes? Some of them are 10 to 20 times more expensive than they were when people started 3 years ago. And people just tell me, well don’t buy it. So I don’t get to look cool? Like you? Because I started later? Or how about gold to gem conversions? Also very pricey. Runes? Good ones are expensive and I can’t really go out and farm the materials for them. Some of them I can’t even make because the recipes only existed in certain events.

I have grinded my butt off to get what I have, I have converted over 1500g, 400g worth of dyes and the entire collection of dyes costs 6900, and thrown about 70 dollars at the game(no expansion yet.) And I still feel like I’m behind. I haven’t bothered crafting ascended gear because it costs as much or nearly a precursor at this point. Not very fun.

“and thrown about 70 dollars at the game” Don’t blame Anet for a system YOU created.

Your complains are valid, however you are one of the persons creating this system.

No, they didn’t.

The “system” was already in place and they just utilised it.

How long do you think this game, really, would have existed, if absolutely no one had ever bought anything from the gemstore (or wherever) for real money?

I know they called it “B2P”, but it blatantly was never actually just that.

Otherwise, why on earth can we buy gems and either use them in the gemstore, or convert them to gold?

In a sub game, like Wow, you might have a point; but this is not and has never been a sub game.

Yes they did. At launch that system was not as extensive as it is now.. also you have to look at my comment on a wider area. People making companies earn money with this sort of bad behavior (for a few years now) make companies put in such systems. It’s that simple.

When a lot of those people doing this, would not, then Anet had to change it / would not have expanded on it.

You spend cash then you make this system. Then they come, complain and leave.. Leaving us with their mess. Probably going to do exactly the same on another game.

-

“I know they called it “B2P”, but it blatantly was never actually just that.”
The first half year it was, and on other elements it behaves as a B2P game like asking €50,- for an expansion. That is reasonable for a B2P game, but not for a Cash-shop game.

Also their promotions always mentioned how they have no sub-fee as if that is something special. As if that by itself makes it a special model they use. Most MMORPG have no sub fee these days. Now GW1 was indeed using a special model.. it was using B2P and if with “we have no sub fee” they mean “we are B2P” that would make sense. Also on the last big public appearance, Mike was having a speech about how great B2P is.

So yes, in many ways they behave as a B2P, but then they also have this focus on the cash-shop that makes it more a cash-shop game, and 1 expansion after 3 years is not going to fund a MMORPG, then you need an expansion once a year / 1,5 year. So it’s like they try to have the benefits of both.. what for players means they have the negatives of both.

“In a sub game, like Wow, you might have a point; but this is not and has never been a sub game.”
No.. if they had been known, and sold the game as a cash-shop game, I did not have a point.

If it would be a sub I would have a point and now that they do focus so much on B2P I do have a point.

Coyote.7031:

Devata.6589:

“and thrown about 70 dollars at the game” Don’t blame Anet for a system YOU created.

Your complains are valid, however you are one of the persons creating this system.

On no I’m a horrible person for supporting the game. Oh evil of me for wanting things like character slots and bank storage!

You support the elements you complain about here. I know it’s the excuse people use to justify for them-self to spend money like this.. I support the game.

But really, by spending cash on the cash-shop, you support the cash-shop. Sure they make content with that money as well, but then when adding that in they also think.. hmm how can we get people to spend more money in the cash-shop with this content. And the result of that is basically what you are complaining about.

You can support the game by buying the game, you can support it by buying the most expensive edition of it and buying the expansion and that most expensive edition of that. You can support it by getting friends to play it. But in a game that is supposed to be B2P you can not support it by spending money on the cash-shop.

BTW, I never said it was evil to want anything.. And about bank slots and additional character slots it would be acceptable to sell those in a B2P game. (out of game items).

However, you stated spending money in an effort to not stay behind.

Tigaseye.2047:

Serophous.9085:

Tigaseye.2047:

Devata.6589:

Coyote.7031:

Tigaseye.2047:

The thing is, we’re all being treated like we have paid the bare minimum for all this, over the last 3 years.

But, some of us haven’t.

Oh I haven’t been playing for 3 years. I’ve been playing off and on for since late January. Seriously try explaining to vets how expensive things are now, and you will get no sympathy. Like dyes? Some of them are 10 to 20 times more expensive than they were when people started 3 years ago. And people just tell me, well don’t buy it. So I don’t get to look cool? Like you? Because I started later? Or how about gold to gem conversions? Also very pricey. Runes? Good ones are expensive and I can’t really go out and farm the materials for them. Some of them I can’t even make because the recipes only existed in certain events.

I have grinded my butt off to get what I have, I have converted over 1500g, 400g worth of dyes and the entire collection of dyes costs 6900, and thrown about 70 dollars at the game(no expansion yet.) And I still feel like I’m behind. I haven’t bothered crafting ascended gear because it costs as much or nearly a precursor at this point. Not very fun.

“and thrown about 70 dollars at the game” Don’t blame Anet for a system YOU created.

Your complains are valid, however you are one of the persons creating this system.

No, they didn’t.

The “system” was already in place and they just utilised it.

How long do you think this game, really, would have existed, if absolutely no one had ever bought anything from the gemstore (or wherever) for real money?

I know they called it “B2P”, but it blatantly was never actually just that.

Otherwise, why on earth can we buy gems and either use them in the gemstore, or convert them to gold?

Because why buy gold from gold sellers which can get you banned or hacked, when you can just buy gold from the company itself?

Yes, I’m not actually questioning why they let us buy gold.

That is pretty obvious.

It may be partly for that reason, but it is mainly to allow Anet to make some extra income.

When a game like WoW charges a sub, I have no problem with a company like Anet, who only charge for the original game/xpac otherwise, charging for some cosmetic stuff.

Which people can choose to buy, or not.

I do have a problem with people being able to effectively (or literally) buy ascended/legendary stuff, but that is probably for another thread.

I also have a problem with stuff that people have worked for (or even purchased) just being arbitrarily removed.

If it was for some “greater good” of the game, then fair enough.

But it, clearly, isn’t.

“charging for some cosmetic stuff. Which people can choose to buy, or not.”

“I do have a problem with people being able to effectively (or literally) buy ascended/legendary stuff, but that is probably for another thread.”

You do understand this basically makes no difference? It just depends on that type of game-play you as a player prefer.

You prefer going for cosmetics.. then charging for that (or making that a grind) is just as bad for you, as when you prefer to do raids and they charge for the stats you need.

It just depends on your preferred game-play. Raids are just as optional as cosmetics are. You do them / go for them for fun.. you play this game for fun.

I agree with you, OP. I’m honestly thinking of going back to a sub MMO because it would be CHEAPER in the long run! This is absolutely ridiculous. In the past I felt no urge to spend money for gold on the gem store. Now around every corner is another gold sink where the urge just increases.

@Devata Honestly, the biggest reason I see for the cash shop being so big. . .is because it’s so popular. They wouldn’t spend so much time developing the cash shop items if they weren’t selling. Is it annoying, sure, but it’s not nearly as bad as most other games I’ve ever played. Most items are QoL or Cosmetic only, which alone sets it above most of my experiences.

As for the Cash → Gold, people are going to do that regardless. At least this way Anet is making money. Even so, those who spend cash on this game really don’t get that much more powerful than others. Ascended: 5% stat boost over Exotic. Legendary: pretty skin and you can switch stats for free! Other than this, you’re just looking at more QoL and Cosmetics.

The Guild Halls are, of course, one of the few useful (and even necessary) expensive items in the game, but they are still time gated to prevent people just buying a full guild hall.

The only real beef I have is the current state of Ascended. The intent to make them necessary for Raids, but so expensive (or difficult) to get, is the first real restriction on content based on economics, that I have seen.

sanctuary.1068:

Im not happy with this goldsink. Im not happy with anything atm in this game. Only thing i look forward to right now is living world 3. Oh and let me just mention that the gems dont drop in price fast enough equal to our gold income.

remember the gem market is based on people buying gems with real money and converting it to gold, thus adding it to a “pool” of gems that people can spend gold on to buy.

In other words, for the price to go down, there has to be more supply (people buy and convert gems to gold) GREATER THAN the influx of people buying gems with gold.

Red Mistress Denna.9804:

Serophous.9085:

Red Mistress Denna.9804:

Coyote.7031:

I haven’t bothered crafting ascended gear because it costs as much or nearly a precursor at this point. Not very fun.

This is probably my biggest issue with the expansion: Lets DOUBLE the cost of ascended. . . and make it necessary for Raids! woohooo!

Currently the best way to get ascended (cheapest / guaranteed) is to farm the raid. Can’t farm the raid without ascended.

The other part because of ascended mats getting expensive is there is more of a demand. Guild halls needs ascended mats, and precursor crafting, plus ascended weapons and armor.

The problem is, the increased demand greatly, but didn’t improve supply at all. This needs to change somehow.

Definitely a good point. I just had to drop 50 elonian squares into my guild hall for the Workshop 2 upgrade I’m buying tomorrow morning.

I was lucky that several of my members had been hoarding, and were willing to donate.

I haven’t salvaged any ascended gear, but if someone can confirm that they drop ascended mats rather than the basic and the dark matter, that would be great. If they don’t they should, since then people running fractals (when the update hopefully comes in december) can add some supply back into the game.

But if people want to make some easy gold and don’t care about ascended, then yeah, you can make a good bit simply playing and making one ascended piece. The price will drop down eventually once guilds start to finish up the big projects, but until then, the lower end mats and stuff are the best ways to make gold

The way to fix it is to go back to the old system. So it is based on player activity and a gold sink to speed it up. If they wanted to slow things down they could have made it so you can only research one upgrade per week per research slot. The current system alienates to many people for a so called “casual” game.

I agree with you Lobo…… Guild system didn’t need “fixing”. The original influence system was fine. Why do the devs waste their time reworking stuff in the game that isn’t broken? They could have added more things to do.

Xillllix.3485:

They had half the content they needed, so they made time gates, artificial difficulty, gold sinc and everything they could to make sure people would not rush through the content. Problem is, many people are just completely discouraged by it (specially when after an entire night in WvW you actually lose gold instead of making some), so I think that strategy won’t work.

IMO the path they are going down makes them no longer a AAA game development company and GW2 is no longer a AAA title. Its just another Asian grinder. It has better graphics than most of the others but that and the combat system are about all they have going for them. They have shown they can not produce AAA content anymore.

Serophous.9085:

sanctuary.1068:

Im not happy with this goldsink. Im not happy with anything atm in this game. Only thing i look forward to right now is living world 3. Oh and let me just mention that the gems dont drop in price fast enough equal to our gold income.

remember the gem market is based on people buying gems with real money and converting it to gold, thus adding it to a “pool” of gems that people can spend gold on to buy.

In other words, for the price to go down, there has to be more supply (people buy and convert gems to gold) GREATER THAN the influx of people buying gems with gold.

Don’t bother trying to explain this to the people who bring it up. Most of them put the tin foil hat on that this XPack is all about gem store conversions that they cant be bothered to understand the system in the slightest.

If they understood it they would realize that a rising Gem->Gold conversion rate means that people are using it in THE EXACT OPPOSITE WAY THEIR CONSPIRACY CLAIMS!

Red Mistress Denna.9804:

@Devata Honestly, ¹the biggest reason I see for the cash shop being so big. . .is because it’s so popular. They wouldn’t spend so much time developing the cash shop items if they weren’t selling. Is it annoying, sure, but it’s not nearly as bad as most other games I’ve ever played. ²Most items are QoL or Cosmetic only, which alone sets it above most of my experiences.

As for the Cash -> Gold, people are going to do that regardless. ³At least this way Anet is making money. Even so, those who spend cash on this game really don’t get that much more powerful than others. Ascended: 5% stat boost over Exotic. Legendary: pretty skin and you can switch stats for free! Other than this, you’re just looking at more QoL and Cosmetics.

The Guild Halls are, of course, one of the few useful (and even necessary) expensive items in the game, but they are still time gated to prevent people just buying a full guild hall.

The only real beef I have is the current state of Ascended. The intent to make them necessary for Raids, but so expensive (or difficult) to get, is the first real restriction on content based on economics, that I have seen.

1 That was my point.

2 Again, how bad it is depends on your preferred game-play. You may say ‘but in those other games content is locked out if you don’t spend money’. Sure but how bad is that for you if you don’t want to play that content anyway? Not, how bad is it if cosmetics are locked behind it when hunting down cosmetics in an MMORPG is your preferred game-play.

3 There are more ways to make money. This way has the bad side-effect of making the game a grind. What btw might be bad for income in the long run.

And I am not saying I did see games with far worse cash-shops. Thats not the point. I think it’s still pretty bad, and extremely bad for a B2P game.

However, what annoys me here, is that you have people stating that they spend money (as if that entitles them more to something). What BTW, in a way makes sense. When you pay for something you are entitled to that.

Thing is, they complain about what they paid for. It’s like throwing money at a bakery and then complaining you got bread while you wanted meat. Well, then you should have gone to the butcher. And as long and people don’t behave like that, game companies will not stop with this behavior.

I have seen many of those comments over the last few years. I do wonder how many of them are still playing. Many likely payed for items, naturally that means Anet puts more items in the cash-shop, getting those items means grinding gold or buying. Then they come to complain about the grind and leave. Leaving us with the grind.

—

Anyway, back more to the original topic.

I think Guild-Halls could use some minor tweaks (like reducing required guild level for upgrades) to help smaller guilds. But other then that I think they are good for bigger and smaller guilds. It’s just that as a smaller guild you should also expect a little less.

I do agree that people should not have lost what they already unlocked, while I also understand this is harder to make then it seems. What if you where almost at a new unlock, get that as well? Get all features that where available?

Overall I think the new system is better for guilds in general, it creates more of a community. Those benefits out-way the negatives imho.

The WvW complains are also valid, but imho more from a scribing perspective. When you would be able to get upgrades at a lower level (as I suggested) it should be easy enough to unlock all War Room features also with a smaller guild. The bigger problem is that those upgrades require scribing what might make them to expensive for what they are.

Then on the topic of scribing in general. It’s expensive now, but I think much of it will become more acceptable when guilds get done upgrading their hall. At least for the non consumable items. For the consumables they might still be a little pricey. What bugs me more is the required gold you have to put in items by having to buy an item with gold to make the item you want. Making just 15 fancy.. read basic chairs requires 7,5 gold just for that.

Legendary crafting.. If that journey is indeed as many say a gold-grind because you have to buy items you can’t really farm then yes that is bad.

Guild Arena requiring the Expansion is no problem. That are the type of things why you buy an expansion.

Guild Portal works exactly as I expected and so also fine… well the WvW mission could send you to WvW instead of to LA. But other then that it’s fine.

Dragon stand / meta event maps. Well I would have preferred a few flat maps with traditional quest instead of the maps where the biggest challenge is to find your way, and the content is mainly meta. But overall I don’t think it’s bad, it’s just not something I will do a lot. And with that I have said all I have to say in this thread I think.

Devata.6589:

You support the elements you complain about here. I know it’s the excuse people use to justify for them-self to spend money like this.. I support the game.

But really, by spending cash on the cash-shop, you support the cash-shop. Sure they make content with that money as well, but then when adding that in they also think.. hmm how can we get people to spend more money in the cash-shop with this content. And the result of that is basically what you are complaining about.

You can support the game by buying the game, you can support it by buying the most expensive edition of it and buying the expansion and that most expensive edition of that. You can support it by getting friends to play it. But in a game that is supposed to be B2P you can not support it by spending money on the cash-shop.

BTW, I never said it was evil to want anything.. And about bank slots and additional character slots it would be acceptable to sell those in a B2P game. (out of game items).

However, you stated spending money in an effort to not stay behind.

I think you have me confused with someone else. I’m very confused. Is this about the gold sinks, guild buffs being taken away, etc? That money I spent was way before I knew the details of the expansion or the changes it brought. And I didn’t buy the expansion, and have no plans too. Because I no longer plan to support the game after those changes. I think you jumped the bullet a bit with this one.

Simple guild hall solution, have it like gw1 where you bought all the upgrades with gold. Straightforward enough.

HenleyLegoMan.4987:

Simple guild hall solution, have it like gw1 where you bought all the upgrades with gold. Straightforward enough.

You should’ve suggested that back in the Guild CDI

Devata, I was just bored at work and talking not making any claims about your statements or anything.
I understand the annoyance if you thought it was pay once and they snuck (sneaked) in extra charges, I personally am not bothered, though.

I agree with your points about Guild Halls. Tweaks, definitely

Serophous.9085:

I haven’t salvaged any ascended gear, but if someone can confirm that they drop ascended mats rather than the basic and the dark matter, that would be great. If they don’t they should, since then people running fractals (when the update hopefully comes in december) can add some supply back into the game.

But if people want to make some easy gold and don’t care about ascended, then yeah, you can make a good bit simply playing and making one ascended piece. The price will drop down eventually once guilds start to finish up the big projects, but until then, the lower end mats and stuff are the best ways to make gold

You can check the drops on the wiki, and insignias, inscriptions, and vision crystals (reg and lesser) are listed for armor and weapons. Damask, Elonian Leather, Spiritwood, and Deldrimor Steel are not listed.

I don’t understand your second part. Do you mean you can make a good bit by crafting a piece of gear, or the ascended mat (damask etc)? Either way, the issue I had was that they increased the demand for ascended (said it was necessary, or just about) for raids, while adding extra cost to the crafting req (each inscription requires 3 elonian leather squares as well as damask). They (apparently) reduced drop rates in Fractals as well.