Guild Wars 2

Vayne.8563:

Like Kaineng Center, I just learned where to go by playing.

But that’s bad map design! We should be able to get to where we want first time around, without actually looking around or learning how to navigate a map! /sarcasm

I agree, for me the best game design, is when you find things really hard at first and once you learn and adapt to the encounters they become much easier. This includes everything, from navigating zones to fighting mobs and bosses.

When “Oh this is impossible” turns into “This is actually easy”. And HoT is full of that.

We all understand that many players enjoy the challenge of HoT. We also can read that many players have the game time to wander around and figure out the maps. Or maybe some players are just really good at taking a path once and then remembering it. I knew someone who could drive somewhere only once and remember how to get to that place for the rest of his life.

Not all of us fit these criteria. When I started playing GW2 in Beta, it was a game that appealed to more of the common denominator. That was exactly why I chose to play it. They said no grinding and other things that appealed to me. GW2 seems to be going away from that initial vision of the game: more and more twitch / platforming, more difficulty in multiple ways, etc. Some people applaud the change while others wish for the GW2 they originally purchased.

No amount of “practice more” or “L2play” is going to change my opinion that I don’t like the direction the game is going.

Djinn.9245:

Not all of us fit these criteria. When I started playing GW2 in Beta, it was a game that appealed to more of the common denominator. That was exactly why I chose to play it. They said no grinding and other things that appealed to me. GW2 seems to be going away from that initial vision of the game: more and more twitch / platforming, more difficulty in multiple ways, etc. Some people applaud the change while others wish for the GW2 they originally purchased.

I don’t know which beta you played but during the Beta Weekend Events Guild Wars 2 was much harder than it was at release. And then the game became easier and easier as players became better at playing it. Simple “L2P” and “practice more” applied back then.

The game was fresh, the mechanics were different to how it worked in other mmorpgs and players had to adapt, and most did adapt, at least those who stayed with the game. Afterwards the game became too easy once we learned how to play and mastered the game’s systems.

Then HoT appeared to give us new challenges, now the game wasn’t new and fresh so we had to adapt once again and learn how to fight the new threats. Same process and will likely be required with each expansion, or at least that’s what makes a good expansion for a game.

maddoctor.2738:

Djinn.9245:

Not all of us fit these criteria. When I started playing GW2 in Beta, it was a game that appealed to more of the common denominator. That was exactly why I chose to play it. They said no grinding and other things that appealed to me. GW2 seems to be going away from that initial vision of the game: more and more twitch / platforming, more difficulty in multiple ways, etc. Some people applaud the change while others wish for the GW2 they originally purchased.

I don’t know which beta you played but during the Beta Weekend Events Guild Wars 2 was much harder than it was at release. And then the game became easier and easier as players became better at playing it. Simple “L2P” and “practice more” applied back then.

The game was fresh, the mechanics were different to how it worked in other mmorpgs and players had to adapt, and most did adapt, at least those who stayed with the game. Afterwards the game became too easy once we learned how to play and mastered the game’s systems.

Then HoT appeared to give us new challenges, now the game wasn’t new and fresh so we had to adapt once again and learn how to fight the new threats. Same process and will likely be required with each expansion, or at least that’s what makes a good expansion for a game.

I’m not sure why you are trying to correct my experience and opinion, but they are not things that others can correct.

Djinn.9245:

I’m not sure why you are trying to correct my experience and opinion, but they are not things that others can correct.

You brought up the beta not me. You did the process once you could do it again, that’s all.

maddoctor.2738:

Djinn.9245:

I’m not sure why you are trying to correct my experience and opinion, but they are not things that others can correct.

You brought up the beta not me. You did the process once you could do it again, that’s all.

There is a huge difference between Core Tyria maps and HoT maps, which is the point of this thread. I’m sorry that I have to point out to you that learning the first is not the same as learning the latter.

Djinn.9245:

We all understand that many players enjoy the challenge of HoT. We also can read that many players have the game time to wander around and figure out the maps. Or maybe some players are just really good at taking a path once and then remembering it. I knew someone who could drive somewhere only once and remember how to get to that place for the rest of his life.

Not all of us fit these criteria. When I started playing GW2 in Beta, it was a game that appealed to more of the common denominator. That was exactly why I chose to play it. They said no grinding and other things that appealed to me. GW2 seems to be going away from that initial vision of the game: more and more twitch / platforming, more difficulty in multiple ways, etc. Some people applaud the change while others wish for the GW2 they originally purchased.

No amount of “practice more” or “L2play” is going to change my opinion that I don’t like the direction the game is going.

the HOT maps arent ‘going in a direction’ they are simply a different style of map to compliment the other 30 or so maps we have – Diversity is good, having every zone as flat easy to navigate zones is dull.

As for your comments about grinding and direction, this is in your head i’m afraid, ‘Grind’ actually means ‘Im doing something i don’t like’ and more fool te man that does that in a game. As for collecting, there is probably more collecting in GW1 than there is in GW2, the direction has not changed, it always has been and probably always will be collecting rather than power gain.

vesica tempestas.1563:

the HOT maps arent ‘going in a direction’

Dry Top/SW > HoT > Bloodstone Fen > Ember Bay

Platforming/Verticality, Platforming/Verticality, Platforming/Verticality, Platforming/Verticality

yup we get it in hot and ember you can go up and down, tricky. So you want maps that have just the perfect amount of up and down to suit you personally..as well as the other 28 odd zones that are flat?

also to use your order of precedence, ember has less vertical and is much simpler than HOT – direction reverse is it?

Djinn.9245:

We all understand that many players enjoy the challenge of HoT. We also can read that many players have the game time to wander around and figure out the maps. Or maybe some players are just really good at taking a path once and then remembering it. I knew someone who could drive somewhere only once and remember how to get to that place for the rest of his life.

Not all of us fit these criteria. When I started playing GW2 in Beta, it was a game that appealed to more of the common denominator. That was exactly why I chose to play it. They said no grinding and other things that appealed to me. GW2 seems to be going away from that initial vision of the game: more and more twitch / platforming, more difficulty in multiple ways, etc. Some people applaud the change while others wish for the GW2 they originally purchased.

No amount of “practice more” or “L2play” is going to change my opinion that I don’t like the direction the game is going.

The same complaints, or similar ones, were made about Guild Wars 1 though.

See in most MMOs as the game progresses they get harder… that’s the whole concept of having an end game. And while Guild Wars 2 doesn’t have a traditional end game, one of the biggest complaints about it, the longest and loudest has been that it doesn’t have an end game. So Anet added an end game.

They wanted an end game all along. Orr was harder originally, a lot harder. Anet nerfed it due to complaints, but not everyone was happy with that nerf.

Then they added Southsun Cove, which was a serious step up in difficulty.

The fact that Anet is adding an end game isn’t new. When Eye of the North came out in Guild Wars 1, the lowest level creatures you fought were as high as the highest level creatures you fought elsewhere. The game was significantly harder and it was originally met with some resistence.

No one group of players can have the whole game to themselves. No one group of players should say the entire open world should be simple to navigate, nor should be group of players insist that the open world should be brain-dead easy and most of it is.

The idea of dividing the zergs was started in Dry Top and the Silverwastes (you can’t really get to the max level rewards in either without dividing the zerg) and they were deemed successful.

The expansion was meant to raise the level and play and some people stepped up to that.

I’ve offered to guide people through the new zones on a number of occasions and some people have taken me up on that, and they’ve almost universally been happier with the expansion.

It blows my mind that so many people who judge it harshly refuse to accept any help at all in learning how to deal with it.

If people don’t have the time and they won’t accept the help (in a game that’s an MMO after all), I’m not so sure why content should be made for them at the expense of people who want an occasional challenge.

We have people in our guild who are in their 60s, who aren’t “great gamers” who run around HoT now. It’s really not that hard…but people have made it harder in their minds. They drew an immediate conclusion about it, took very few steps to make it better for themselves, and then come here and say the game was better when anyone could do it.

Well, as I recall, presearing ascalon was a lot easier than the rest of Prophecies, and that game got harder and harder as you went on, particularly before heroes were introduced. As I understand it people had to group to get missions done, much like they have to play together to get some hero points in HoT (not all of them or even most of them just some of them). As I understand it, Guild Wars 1, initially, before the introduction of heros, had an end game that was much much harder than the “open world” which you could solo.

And even back then some people complained. But it wasn’t that they couldn’t do it. It was that they wanted to be able to solo everything.

HoT isn’t that hard. Getting people to help you in a multi player game shouldn’t be an issue. And once people learn the zones and strategies on how to deal with them or get around in them it becomes a lot easier.

There are still some complaints about the difficulty of HoT, but I’ve personally seen too many average players get into HoT and tame it to take most of the comments its difficulty to heart.

Vayne.8563:

The same complaints, or similar ones, were made about Guild Wars 1 though.

See in most MMOs as the game progresses they get harder… that’s the whole concept of having an end game. And while Guild Wars 2 doesn’t have a traditional end game, one of the biggest complaints about it, the longest and loudest has been that it doesn’t have an end game. So Anet added an end game.

They wanted an end game all along. Orr was harder originally, a lot harder. Anet nerfed it due to complaints, but not everyone was happy with that nerf.

Then they added Southsun Cove, which was a serious step up in difficulty.

The fact that Anet is adding an end game isn’t new. When Eye of the North came out in Guild Wars 1, the lowest level creatures you fought were as high as the highest level creatures you fought elsewhere. The game was significantly harder and it was originally met with some resistence.

No one group of players can have the whole game to themselves. No one group of players should say the entire open world should be simple to navigate, nor should be group of players insist that the open world should be brain-dead easy and most of it is.

The idea of dividing the zergs was started in Dry Top and the Silverwastes (you can’t really get to the max level rewards in either without dividing the zerg) and they were deemed successful.

The expansion was meant to raise the level and play and some people stepped up to that.

I’ve offered to guide people through the new zones on a number of occasions and some people have taken me up on that, and they’ve almost universally been happier with the expansion.

It blows my mind that so many people who judge it harshly refuse to accept any help at all in learning how to deal with it.

If people don’t have the time and they won’t accept the help (in a game that’s an MMO after all), I’m not so sure why content should be made for them at the expense of people who want an occasional challenge.

We have people in our guild who are in their 60s, who aren’t “great gamers” who run around HoT now. It’s really not that hard…but people have made it harder in their minds. They drew an immediate conclusion about it, took very few steps to make it better for themselves, and then come here and say the game was better when anyone could do it.

Well, as I recall, presearing ascalon was a lot easier than the rest of Prophecies, and that game got harder and harder as you went on, particularly before heroes were introduced. As I understand it people had to group to get missions done, much like they have to play together to get some hero points in HoT (not all of them or even most of them just some of them). As I understand it, Guild Wars 1, initially, before the introduction of heros, had an end game that was much much harder than the “open world” which you could solo.

And even back then some people complained. But it wasn’t that they couldn’t do it. It was that they wanted to be able to solo everything.

HoT isn’t that hard. Getting people to help you in a multi player game shouldn’t be an issue. And once people learn the zones and strategies on how to deal with them or get around in them it becomes a lot easier.

There are still some complaints about the difficulty of HoT, but I’ve personally seen too many average players get into HoT and tame it to take most of the comments its difficulty to heart.

I tend to agree. An expansion that is aimed at players who have, in theory, had three years of experience learning how to play their characters, the various mechanics of play, and so on, needs to be more difficult in order to provide an ongoing challenge for a player base which has outgrown the core content (and which now has access to some pretty serious power creep for their characters). A game company cannot afford to assume that their players are incapable of improving, growing, over time. If they did then no content would be more difficult than the tutorial instances.

That said, I am still not fond of the HoT zones, not because of play difficulty, but because of map design. The LS3 zones have been slightly better, but not sufficiently so to maintain my interest. I will be watching map design closely throughout the remainder of LS3 to assist in deciding whether to purchase the second expansion. If elite specs continue to be a source of power creep and the zones continue to be designed as they currently are, I am less likely to buy again.

Ashen.2907:

I tend to agree. An expansion that is aimed at players who have, in theory, had three years of experience learning how to play their characters, the various mechanics of play, and so on, needs to be more difficult in order to provide an ongoing challenge for a player base which has outgrown the core content (and which now has access to some pretty serious power creep for their characters). A game company cannot afford to assume that their players are incapable of improving, growing, over time. If they did then no content would be more difficult than the tutorial instances.

That said, I am still not fond of the HoT zones, not because of play difficulty, but because of map design. The LS3 zones have been slightly better, but not sufficiently so to maintain my interest. I will be watching map design closely throughout the remainder of LS3 to assist in deciding whether to purchase the second expansion. If elite specs continue to be a source of power creep and the zones continue to be designed as they currently are, I am less likely to buy again.

I completely agree with this post.

Djinn.9245:

vesica tempestas.1563:

the HOT maps arent ‘going in a direction’

Dry Top/SW > HoT > Bloodstone Fen > Ember Bay

Platforming/Verticality, Platforming/Verticality, Platforming/Verticality, Platforming/Verticality

I’m a tad confused. Dry Top has some jumping, but Silverwastes is very flat. VB is quite vertical but AB is has only a few portions where up or down has any meaning. TD is highly layered and a nightmare to navigate for the uninitiated, but DS is just three long roads with a giant pit at the end. BF is almost completely vertical but I’ve yet to have to look up or down in EB.

I see Anet giving a wide range of map types, and I struggle to apply the term vertical in the way you have. Could you clarify what you mean by verticality?

Ashen.2907:

Vayne.8563:

snip

I tend to agree. An expansion that is aimed at players who have, in theory, had three years of experience learning how to play their characters, the various mechanics of play, and so on, needs to be more difficult in order to provide an ongoing challenge for a player base which has outgrown the core content (and which now has access to some pretty serious power creep for their characters). A game company cannot afford to assume that their players are incapable of improving, growing, over time. If they did then no content would be more difficult than the tutorial instances.

That said, I am still not fond of the HoT zones, not because of play difficulty, but because of map design. The LS3 zones have been slightly better, but not sufficiently so to maintain my interest. I will be watching map design closely throughout the remainder of LS3 to assist in deciding whether to purchase the second expansion. If elite specs continue to be a source of power creep and the zones continue to be designed as they currently are, I am less likely to buy again.

And yet to me, the map design, more than the increased difficulty, is the best part of the HoT zones, where as most of the other zones, I don’t care much about the map design at all.

Just as in Rift, Scarlet Gorge was by far my favorite map.

The design of the zones is very much a matter of taste, but I think people over-emphasize how hard it is to get around, along with how vertical it is. As pointed out in another post in this thread EB and AB don’t have much verticality to them at all.

Vayne.8563:

The design of the zones is very much a matter of taste, but I think people over-emphasize how hard it is to get around, along with how vertical it is. As pointed out in another post in this thread EB and AB don’t have much verticality to them at all.

All this hate on vertical maps is not founded on reality, I even saw SW as an example of a vertical map, SW doesn’t have any vertical action other than the jumping puzzle, but that’s a jumping puzzle so it makes sense.
Auric Basin has vertical action only at the start of the zone where you can fall down to the Mushroom HP bellow.
Dragon Stand is as flat as any other zone, some pre-events at the beginning are the only parts with some bouncing/gliding around, and the last fight requires some updraft use.
Tangled Depths vertical action is limited to the north west corner (the Mordrem “labyrinth”) and around Teku Nuhoch, the rest of the zone is straightforward, for example there are no up and downs at any of the other camps except Nuhoch.
Only Verdant Brink actually has lots of verticality.
All this for normal play, there are many secrets, hidden chests and achievements in places that require some platforming on all HoT zones.

maddoctor.2738:

Vayne.8563:

The design of the zones is very much a matter of taste, but I think people over-emphasize how hard it is to get around, along with how vertical it is. As pointed out in another post in this thread EB and AB don’t have much verticality to them at all.

All this hate on vertical maps is not founded on reality, I even saw SW as an example of a vertical map, SW doesn’t have any vertical action other than the jumping puzzle, but that’s a jumping puzzle so it makes sense.
Auric Basin has vertical action only at the start of the zone where you can fall down to the Mushroom HP bellow.
Dragon Stand is as flat as any other zone, some pre-events at the beginning are the only parts with some bouncing/gliding around, and the last fight requires some updraft use.
Tangled Depths vertical action is limited to the north west corner (the Mordrem “labyrinth”) and around Teku Nuhoch, the rest of the zone is straightforward, for example there are no up and downs at any of the other camps except Nuhoch.
Only Verdant Brink actually has lots of verticality.
All this for normal play, there are many secrets, hidden chests and achievements in places that require some platforming on all HoT zones.

You claim that the dislike of verticality in mals is not based in reality and then describe how all of the maps in question, again in your words, do, in fact, mandate such play for access or completion.

Ashen.2907:

maddoctor.2738:

Vayne.8563:

The design of the zones is very much a matter of taste, but I think people over-emphasize how hard it is to get around, along with how vertical it is. As pointed out in another post in this thread EB and AB don’t have much verticality to them at all.

All this hate on vertical maps is not founded on reality, I even saw SW as an example of a vertical map, SW doesn’t have any vertical action other than the jumping puzzle, but that’s a jumping puzzle so it makes sense.
Auric Basin has vertical action only at the start of the zone where you can fall down to the Mushroom HP bellow.
Dragon Stand is as flat as any other zone, some pre-events at the beginning are the only parts with some bouncing/gliding around, and the last fight requires some updraft use.
Tangled Depths vertical action is limited to the north west corner (the Mordrem “labyrinth”) and around Teku Nuhoch, the rest of the zone is straightforward, for example there are no up and downs at any of the other camps except Nuhoch.
Only Verdant Brink actually has lots of verticality.
All this for normal play, there are many secrets, hidden chests and achievements in places that require some platforming on all HoT zones.

You claim that the dislike of verticality in mals is not based in reality and then describe how all of the maps in question, again in your words, do, in fact, mandate such play for access or completion.

When world complete required map completion, I agree this was a thing. But people seem to think that maps after the original maps much be completed, and frankly that’s not the case. There’s nothing you get for it, unless you want to make HoT legendary. If you want to make a HoT legendary, by all means, you’d have to complete the map.

But really why is map complete so important otherwise? What do you get for it? Why does it matter?

You need to complete one map on different alts for an specialization weapon too, but it can be any map. If verticality isn’t your thing, do AB. For anything else, you never need to complete TD at all.

This came isn’t called map completion wars 2.

If you want to unlock your elite spec, there are plenty of easy to get to hero points you can do, or you can join a train, they run frequently enough.

Ashen.2907:

You claim that the dislike of verticality in mals is not based in reality and then describe how all of the maps in question, again in your words, do, in fact, mandate such play for access or completion.

I explained briefly how much of each of the HoT maps is vertical and how much is not. If not getting a single hero point easily makes you hate “verticality” then I rest my case.

Vayne.8563:

But really why is map complete so important otherwise? What do you get for it? Why does it matter?

It’s something to do in a game genre that survives by presenting players with things to do. Some people like exploring for its own sake, and reaching benchmarks provides a sense of satisfaction. Everything does not have to feed into pursuit of cosmetic carrots to be enjoyable.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Vayne.8563:

But really why is map complete so important otherwise? What do you get for it? Why does it matter?

It’s something to do in a game genre that survives by presenting players with things to do. Some people like exploring for its own sake, and reaching benchmarks provides a sense of satisfaction. Everything does not have to feed into pursuit of cosmetic carrots to be enjoyable.

There’s no shortage of things to do, and I repeat, it is not that hard. It’s really not that hard. I mean if you have to watch a video you can, but even without a video it’s not that hard.

I mean look, we should make everything easier because someone can’t do it. That’s the way forward.

People use words like platforming to describe the new areas, but this isn’t jumping puzzles. This is standing on a mushroom that puts you exactly where you need to be. It’s a visual gate. It’s taking an updraft which propels you up in the air you can can glide to something.

There are a couple of branches that might be tricky but they’re not platforming in the sense of say jumping puzzles that are already in the game that are required for map completion. Take a look at Tribulation Scaffolding or the Wall Breach Jumping puzzle, which have vistas that you need for map completion.

The stuff in HoT isn’t platforming in any sense of the game. If people are going to complain they should complain about the core game, because the platforming required to get vistas and pois in HoT is considerably less.

Now, in VB you have some tricky bits to get to certain areas during the day, but you can always come in at night and take choppers. Is that really platforming? Interacting with a ladder?

That’s my issue. People throw around words like platforming to malign HoT when the amount of platforming you need isn’t as serious as climbing the Vizier’s Tower in Straits to get a vista and a hero point.

Seriously people need to think about what’s already been in the game and stop making it like HoT is some vast departure.

Combat wise it is harder, but it requires less platforming to complete zones than the core game.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Vayne.8563:

But really why is map complete so important otherwise? What do you get for it? Why does it matter?

It’s something to do in a game genre that survives by presenting players with things to do. Some people like exploring for its own sake, and reaching benchmarks provides a sense of satisfaction. Everything does not have to feed into pursuit of cosmetic carrots to be enjoyable.

I’m just curious here, if someone likes exploring maps for the sake of exploring them, then maps with huge complexity will be much better than plain/flat ones no?

Well map completion per profession is part of the ascended weapon collection of that profession’s elite spec

maddoctor.2738:

I’m just curious here, if someone likes exploring maps for the sake of exploring them, then maps with huge complexity will be much better than plain/flat ones no?

Yes, HoT maps were designed for true explorers. For those that follow the rewards however, if they find that they are incapable of completing a single objective, there is no longer a reason to bother with any of it.

Vayne.8563:

People throw around words like platforming

Some people are very slow to act, are keyboard turners and have a hard time doing multiple actions at once. The simple act of jumping can be an obstacle, so they see the HoT maps as such.

maddoctor.2738:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Vayne.8563:

But really why is map complete so important otherwise? What do you get for it? Why does it matter?

It’s something to do in a game genre that survives by presenting players with things to do. Some people like exploring for its own sake, and reaching benchmarks provides a sense of satisfaction. Everything does not have to feed into pursuit of cosmetic carrots to be enjoyable.

I’m just curious here, if someone likes exploring maps for the sake of exploring them, then maps with huge complexity will be much better than plain/flat ones no?

I won’t speak for anyone else, but for me enjoyment trumps complexity, and having someone show me or consulting a guide ruins the experience. Perhaps my exploration skills are sub-par, but — especially in VB — I start from point A to get to point B and can’t get there. I try something different, but end up in the same frustrating place. I try a third something with no better result. It seems like there is some secret trick that is either not evident or locked behind some mastery I don’t have.

I get the whole “different strokes” thing. I liked exploration in GW and I know some hated it. The frustrations of GW exploration yielded to a systematic approach, and I’ve yet to find a systematic approach that works in HoT. So for me, HoT’s particular type of complex kittens and is not better.

IndigoSundown.5419:

maddoctor.2738:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Vayne.8563:

But really why is map complete so important otherwise? What do you get for it? Why does it matter?

It’s something to do in a game genre that survives by presenting players with things to do. Some people like exploring for its own sake, and reaching benchmarks provides a sense of satisfaction. Everything does not have to feed into pursuit of cosmetic carrots to be enjoyable.

I’m just curious here, if someone likes exploring maps for the sake of exploring them, then maps with huge complexity will be much better than plain/flat ones no?

I won’t speak for anyone else, but for me enjoyment trumps complexity, and having someone show me or consulting a guide ruins the experience. Perhaps my exploration skills are sub-par, but — especially in VB — I start from point A to get to point B and can’t get there. I try something different, but end up in the same frustrating place. I try a third something with no better result. It seems like there is some secret trick that is either not evident or locked behind some mastery I don’t have.

I get the whole “different strokes” thing. I liked exploration in GW and I know some hated it. The frustrations of GW exploration yielded to a systematic approach, and I’ve yet to find a systematic approach that works in HoT. So for me, HoT’s particular type of complex kittens and is not better.

As I’ve said to a number of people, showing you a few simple tricks would make HoT exploration a lot easier. Like in VB, how to get to the canopy during the day. There are several ways to do it, and I know them all.

Once you learn that, it becomes a lot easier to navigate VB. And yes, I do understand the concept of I want to do everything by myself and learn everything by myself, but that’s not really the way MMOs are designed. They’re designed so that people can (and probably should) help each other.

There’s no value to insisting I can’t do this and I’m not going to accept any help at all, particularly if you can learn something you might be able to pass on to someone else.

I’m always happy to show people some stuff. It doesn’t take long. It just gives you the tools to succeed on their own. Most people I take around VB once know enough to finish everything on their own.

Summing up this thread: Some folks like HoT, some don’t, and some are indifferent. If you need a reason to come back, you can play the Living Story going forward and skip over most of the HoT content.

Healix.5819:

maddoctor.2738:

I’m just curious here, if someone likes exploring maps for the sake of exploring them, then maps with huge complexity will be much better than plain/flat ones no?

Yes, HoT maps were designed for true explorers. For those that follow the rewards however, if they find that they are incapable of completing a single objective, there is no longer a reason to bother with any of it.

Vayne.8563:

People throw around words like platforming

Some people are very slow to act, are keyboard turners and have a hard time doing multiple actions at once. The simple act of jumping can be an obstacle, so they see the HoT maps as such.

Having not actually played any platforming games, it might be that they are far more complex than I think. However, using movement crystals, bouncing mushrooms, updrafts, leylines, and now thermal tubes, definitely reminds me of the platforming games I have seen others play.

Djinn.9245:

Healix.5819:

maddoctor.2738:

I’m just curious here, if someone likes exploring maps for the sake of exploring them, then maps with huge complexity will be much better than plain/flat ones no?

Yes, HoT maps were designed for true explorers. For those that follow the rewards however, if they find that they are incapable of completing a single objective, there is no longer a reason to bother with any of it.

Vayne.8563:

People throw around words like platforming

Some people are very slow to act, are keyboard turners and have a hard time doing multiple actions at once. The simple act of jumping can be an obstacle, so they see the HoT maps as such.

Having not actually played any platforming games, it might be that they are far more complex than I think. However, using movement crystals, bouncing mushrooms, updrafts, leylines, and now thermal tubes, definitely reminds me of the platforming games I have seen others play.

Platforming games are like jumping puzzles. They require some level of skill to make jumps. A jumping mushroom is more like a teleporter. It just puts you where you need to be. No skill, no nothing.

In Divinity’s Reach you have shining portals that take you from the upper city to the lower city but no one calls it platforming. A better example of platforming would be many of the vistas (not just a few but many) that are in the core game, including 3 were are atop jumping puzzles.

Jumping puzzles are definitely platforming. But something can look like it without being it, because the actual mechanic requires no actual skill.

There are jumping puzzles in HoT. One of them has a mastery point on top of it, in Verdant Brink and that is definitely 100% platforming. No question about it. But it’s not needed for zone complete.

Gliding around and getting an updraft isn’t really platforming. This is more like puzzle solving than hand-eye coordination.

Edit: Lava tubes are like mushrooms. You step in one and it takes you exactly where you need to go, no skill required. No different than a portal. Thus I wouldn’t consider them platforming either. You don’t aim or control them at all.

You can stop and glide mid way and that requires the skill of tapping the space bar as you go, but it’s not really required for anything, it’s just something you can do. Still wouldn’t call that platforming.

I agree that it isn’t really “platforming” and for the reasons stated: making jumps in platforming games is intended to require some degree of skill. HoT masteries don’t work this way. Only the jump puzzles qualify, in my opinion, and there are only a few of those. I suppose you could say that gliding from one platform to another is “platforming”, but I really don’t understand why anyone would take issue with a maneuver you have almost no chance of failing in most cases.

However, it’s really beside the point. Call it whatever you want, it isn’t every player’s cup of tea. Maybe some players haven’t given HoT a fair shake, but they aren’t obligated to do so. There is nothing that says players must spend hours and hours learning TD if they just don’t like it. I did and like Vayne says, it’s an amazing map once you learn your way around. But that’s just one player’s opinion. To each their own.

I agree wholeheartedly that nobody has to like HoT, and certainly nobody is required to put in the effort to find a way to enjoy it, either. I don’t think any of the “HoT isn’t so bad” posters in here were really looking to change the OP’s mind, ultimately.

I just saw something fairly high up on the first page of the HoT forum, peeked in to see why the OP dislikes it so, and found that it was because of what I consider a fairly easily surmounted issue.

I think it would be terrible for a new player (or just new to HoT) to feel the same way, come read this thread, and walk away giving up all hope of advancing through HoT. I just wanted to ensure that anyone feeling burned by HoT was at least aware that there’s a fairly non-intrusive way past the rapid-and-constant-death-frustration, should they ever want to try again in the future; I suspect that others saying similar things in here had similar motivation.

Vayne.8563:

IndigoSundown.5419:

maddoctor.2738:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Vayne.8563:

But really why is map complete so important otherwise? What do you get for it? Why does it matter?

It’s something to do in a game genre that survives by presenting players with things to do. Some people like exploring for its own sake, and reaching benchmarks provides a sense of satisfaction. Everything does not have to feed into pursuit of cosmetic carrots to be enjoyable.

I’m just curious here, if someone likes exploring maps for the sake of exploring them, then maps with huge complexity will be much better than plain/flat ones no?

I won’t speak for anyone else, but for me enjoyment trumps complexity, and having someone show me or consulting a guide ruins the experience. Perhaps my exploration skills are sub-par, but — especially in VB — I start from point A to get to point B and can’t get there. I try something different, but end up in the same frustrating place. I try a third something with no better result. It seems like there is some secret trick that is either not evident or locked behind some mastery I don’t have.

I get the whole “different strokes” thing. I liked exploration in GW and I know some hated it. The frustrations of GW exploration yielded to a systematic approach, and I’ve yet to find a systematic approach that works in HoT. So for me, HoT’s particular type of complex kittens and is not better.

As I’ve said to a number of people, showing you a few simple tricks would make HoT exploration a lot easier. Like in VB, how to get to the canopy during the day. There are several ways to do it, and I know them all.

Once you learn that, it becomes a lot easier to navigate VB. And yes, I do understand the concept of I want to do everything by myself and learn everything by myself, but that’s not really the way MMOs are designed. They’re designed so that people can (and probably should) help each other.

There’s no value to insisting I can’t do this and I’m not going to accept any help at all, particularly if you can learn something you might be able to pass on to someone else.

I’m always happy to show people some stuff. It doesn’t take long. It just gives you the tools to succeed on their own. Most people I take around VB once know enough to finish everything on their own.

If I still care in a few months when I can use my arm again, I’ll look you up.

AliamRationem.5172:

I agree that it isn’t really “platforming”

Just to check, I looked up platformer games online – Mario Brothers was mentioned almost every time. So I watched a play through video (even though I have seen it played) just to make sure I remembered it correctly. In the first couple of minutes it showed Mario jumping on objects that shot him in the air, gave him a speed boost, etc. Running through a tube that shot him across a chasm…

Sounds very similar to me.

ShinjoNaomi.1896:

Nope.
I enjoyed the majority of what HoT brought to the game.

Yep.

But not the Tangled Depths.

Djinn.9245:

AliamRationem.5172:

I agree that it isn’t really “platforming”

Just to check, I looked up platformer games online – Mario Brothers was mentioned almost every time. So I watched a play through video (even though I have seen it played) just to make sure I remembered it correctly. In the first couple of minutes it showed Mario jumping on objects that shot him in the air, gave him a speed boost, etc. Running through a tube that shot him across a chasm…

Sounds very similar to me.

The objects in mario brothers did indeed shoot him in the air. However, where he landed after he was shot in the air, was dependent on skill. In other words he was shot in the air, but in the air you were, and needed to, control the character. Depending on how you moved after you shot in the air depended on where you landed. In addition you also needed to shoot often while shot in the air. Neither of these things happen in HoT.

Jumping on a mushroom that puts you exactly where you need to be with no other input from you is not platforming.

Watching someone take a tablet of medicine or a tablet of poison looks the same if you have no other information.

But taking medicine is not the same as taking poison.

I’ve played mario brothers and the similarities of jumping mushrooms to mario brothers ends at their visual similarities. There is skill involved in jumping in mario brothers. It’s hard. There’s no skill involved in jumping on jumping mushrooms.

This has already been explained to you: The difference between platforming and navigating HoT is the skill element.

If you miss a jump in a platforming game, you die. That’s how Mario Bros. worked. Not only that, but you played against a timer. The game requires precision while driving you to play faster. That’s really the only point to it and why it fits in the genre of platforming games.

HoT does none of that. The similarity ends at “Well, there are platforms…” No skill is required. All you need to do is unlock the requisite masteries and find the path to your objective. As Vayne said, only the jump puzzles require any sort of skill.

But once again, it really doesn’t matter if it is or it isn’t. Even if it were a platformer, some players would like it and others would not. I believe we’re all welcome to our opinions on the games we choose to play. You dislike HoT. I love it. What can ya do?

For those unsure of the game genre in use when playing HoT I suggest the following exercise. I use the word exercise but it is not hard at all.

1. Google with search term platformer game
2. your first hit will be the wiki for the platform game genre. Game genre is by definition and luckily the wiki uses the standard definitions.
3. The first sentence of the article reads: “Platform game (or platformer) is a video game which involves guiding an avatar to jump between suspended platforms and/or over obstacles to advance the game. These challenges are known as jumping puzzles or freerunning.”

There. That wasn’t hard at all. The key aspects to gameplay in a platform game are 1) navigation of platforms, and 2) advancing the game thereby. Vanilla GW2 with jumping puzzles was an MMO not a platformer. You could navigate platforms all day but you were not advancing the core game. An example of advancing the core game is arriving at VB and discovering that you need both gliding and updrafts to begin advancing the core game.

The problem is not having elements of platforming in GW2. Jumping puzzles were absolutely brilliant. You could knock youself out with them and have a ton of fun. At the same time Player X could ignore them and derive their fun from standard MMO aspects of the game. Brilliant.

And, for the last comentator here, it has nothing to do with game “difficulty”. Because the full genre here is ‘platformer obscura’ you can’t figure anything out except by brute force as in trying every possibility. Brute-force and skill-based are at opposite ends of the spectrum. This is why the first jump by a skillful player is always to youtube to find out the remaining jumps. What about brute force is going to make the gameplay fun?

Raine.1394:

For those unsure of the game genre in use when playing HoT I suggest the following exercise. I use the word exercise but it is not hard at all.

1. Google with search term platformer game
2. your first hit will be the wiki for the platform game genre. Game genre is by definition and luckily the wiki uses the standard definitions.
3. The first sentence of the article reads: “Platform game (or platformer) is a video game which involves guiding an avatar to jump between suspended platforms and/or over obstacles to advance the game. These challenges are known as jumping puzzles or freerunning.”

There. That wasn’t hard at all. The key aspects to gameplay in a platform game are 1) navigation of platforms, and 2) advancing the game thereby. Vanilla GW2 with jumping puzzles was an MMO not a platformer. You could navigate platforms all day but you were not advancing the core game. An example of advancing the core game is arriving at VB and discovering that you need both gliding and updrafts to begin advancing the core game.

The problem is not having elements of platforming in GW2. Jumping puzzles were absolutely brilliant. You could knock youself out with them and have a ton of fun. At the same time Player X could ignore them and derive their fun from standard MMO aspects of the game. Brilliant.

And, for the last comentator here, it has nothing to do with game “difficulty”. Because the full genre here is ‘platformer obscura’ you can’t figure anything out except by brute force as in trying every possibility. Brute-force and skill-based are at opposite ends of the spectrum. This is why the first jump by a skillful player is always to youtube to find out the remaining jumps. What about brute force is going to make the gameplay fun?

It’s not a platformer because there’s no skill in jumping. Period. I’ve played platform games. I’ve played Guild Wars 2. They’re not the same. Jumping puzzles are platforming, no matter whether Guild Wars 2 is not.

However, in core Guild Wars 2, in order to map complete you had to jump. You had to do vistas. Map complete is part of the game and part of progression. Therefore, if you play Guild Wars 2, even the core game, by your definition Guild Wars 2 was always a platformer.

Because for many people getting a legendary weapon was end game progression and to get that you needed world complete which requires 3 jumping puzzles and many vistas that have jumping puzzle elements.

The thing with this game is progression is different things to different people. The people complaining about platforming are complaining about not being able to advance the game without it. Well since advance the game means different things to different people, for some people, we’ve always needed platforming, by your defintion, to progress the game.

However, since a jumping mushroom is no different from a portal, it doesn’t qualify as platforming to anyone who plays platform games.

If you jump in a mushroom in mario brothers, you go straight up in the air and right back down on the same platform. The jump pads in Not So Secret Jumping puzzle do the same. That’s platforming.

Standing on a mushroom that places your character into a new position? Not platforming.

AliamRationem.5172:

This has already been explained to you: The difference between platforming and navigating HoT is the skill element.

If you miss a jump in a platforming game, you die. That’s how Mario Bros. worked. Not only that, but you played against a timer. The game requires precision while driving you to play faster. That’s really the only point to it and why it fits in the genre of platforming games.

HoT does none of that. The similarity ends at “Well, there are platforms…” No skill is required. All you need to do is unlock the requisite masteries and find the path to your objective. As Vayne said, only the jump puzzles require any sort of skill.

I disagree. What happens after you use all the platformy items is still up to you. It might be so easy for you that you see it as requiring no skill, but I disagree.

And my original point in bringing up platformers was to state that I didn’t like the direction Anet seemed to be going, not to claim that GW2 was a platformer.

Raine.1394:

For those unsure of the game genre in use when playing HoT I suggest the following exercise. I use the word exercise but it is not hard at all.

1. Google with search term platformer game
2. your first hit will be the wiki for the platform game genre. Game genre is by definition and luckily the wiki uses the standard definitions.
3. The first sentence of the article reads: “Platform game (or platformer) is a video game which involves guiding an avatar to jump between suspended platforms and/or over obstacles to advance the game. These challenges are known as jumping puzzles or freerunning.”

There. That wasn’t hard at all. The key aspects to gameplay in a platform game are 1) navigation of platforms, and 2) advancing the game thereby. Vanilla GW2 with jumping puzzles was an MMO not a platformer. You could navigate platforms all day but you were not advancing the core game. An example of advancing the core game is arriving at VB and discovering that you need both gliding and updrafts to begin advancing the core game.

The problem is not having elements of platforming in GW2. Jumping puzzles were absolutely brilliant. You could knock youself out with them and have a ton of fun. At the same time Player X could ignore them and derive their fun from standard MMO aspects of the game. Brilliant.

And, for the last comentator here, it has nothing to do with game “difficulty”. Because the full genre here is ‘platformer obscura’ you can’t figure anything out except by brute force as in trying every possibility. Brute-force and skill-based are at opposite ends of the spectrum. This is why the first jump by a skillful player is always to youtube to find out the remaining jumps. What about brute force is going to make the gameplay fun?

Well said, thank you.

I hardly do anything in HoT once I got what I wanted out of it. Now, I go in when I can tolerate it to map complete my alts.
My likes and dislikes with HoT:
1) Disliked Mini-adventures – Mario games have no place in MMOs and further locking Masteries behind them is just plain wrong. Too bad they didn’t put that development time into improving and adding new Guild Missions (or fixing them sooner).
2) Like the new HoT NPCs you fought with their unique abilities. They do keep you on your toes. Dislike the events not scaling properly (all non-meta events should scale down to be solo-able).
3) Disliked the meta-event design – too much pre-event setup, the event itself was way too long, lack of scaling (octovine should scale down to be doable with as little as a party per vine for example), and lack of getting rewards during the event turned me off. Sure you get a lot of loot at the end, but I’d rather get the rewards as you progress (all mobs should drop loot – hint Anet). World boss fights (15m) with their short pre-events are as long as I care to invest my time in.
4) Living story was so-so. It definitely needed better scaling according to party size.

Djinn.9245:

I disagree. What happens after you use all the platformy items is still up to you. It might be so easy for you that you see it as requiring no skill, but I disagree.

And my original point in bringing up platformers was to state that I didn’t like the direction Anet seemed to be going, not to claim that GW2 was a platformer.

You mean what happens after you use a bounce mushroom, updraft, etc.? That’s correct. You have to head in the right direction to reach your objective, which generally isn’t a straight line in HoT. That can be confusing and clearly not everyone enjoys that aspect of HoT.

If that’s your issue, then it’s the maze-like exploration that you hate, not “platforming”. If you knew where you were going you would make it there easily in most cases, right? As opposed to the Mario Bros. example, where the jumping is technical but finding your way to the finish is as simple as moving from left to right.

AliamRationem.5172:

Djinn.9245:

I disagree. What happens after you use all the platformy items is still up to you. It might be so easy for you that you see it as requiring no skill, but I disagree.

And my original point in bringing up platformers was to state that I didn’t like the direction Anet seemed to be going, not to claim that GW2 was a platformer.

You mean what happens after you use a bounce mushroom, updraft, etc.? That’s correct. You have to head in the right direction to reach your objective, which generally isn’t a straight line in HoT. That can be confusing and clearly not everyone enjoys that aspect of HoT.

If that’s your issue, then it’s the maze-like exploration that you hate, not “platforming”. If you knew where you were going you would make it there easily in most cases, right? As opposed to the Mario Bros. example, where the jumping is technical but finding your way to the finish is as simple as moving from left to right.

It is, in fact, the maze-like design combined with the platforming aesthetic (and some actual platforming-like elements) that I dislike.

Bounce on a mushroom in order to reach the next level, jump up through glowing balls in order to earn the rewards, power up, progression, whatever, etc…

Where is my plumber outfit so that I can go save Princess Peach. I mean what is a high fantasy RPG if you don’t try to copy Mario (insert specific title here) right?

pacman has mazes, does this mean guild wars has a pacman asthetic too?

A mmorpg game with a more complicated zone structure is not a maze game or a platform game – its a mmorpg with a more complicate zone. calling it a ‘maze’ or a ‘platforming’ game is simply trying to ignore context and part of this modern breed of player who thinks its a game fault because it isn’t exactly how they want it at all times.

Mazes in fantasy RPG’s predate Pacman by quite some time.

Bouncing on mushrooms to reach the next level or jumping up to pop glowing orbs to get power ups or rewards are pretty specific in their origin.

Djinn.9245:

Raine.1394:

For those unsure of the game genre in use when playing HoT I suggest the following exercise. I use the word exercise but it is not hard at all.

1. Google with search term platformer game
2. your first hit will be the wiki for the platform game genre. Game genre is by definition and luckily the wiki uses the standard definitions.
3. The first sentence of the article reads: “Platform game (or platformer) is a video game which involves guiding an avatar to jump between suspended platforms and/or over obstacles to advance the game. These challenges are known as jumping puzzles or freerunning.”

There. That wasn’t hard at all. The key aspects to gameplay in a platform game are 1) navigation of platforms, and 2) advancing the game thereby. Vanilla GW2 with jumping puzzles was an MMO not a platformer. You could navigate platforms all day but you were not advancing the core game. An example of advancing the core game is arriving at VB and discovering that you need both gliding and updrafts to begin advancing the core game.

The problem is not having elements of platforming in GW2. Jumping puzzles were absolutely brilliant. You could knock youself out with them and have a ton of fun. At the same time Player X could ignore them and derive their fun from standard MMO aspects of the game. Brilliant.

And, for the last comentator here, it has nothing to do with game “difficulty”. Because the full genre here is ‘platformer obscura’ you can’t figure anything out except by brute force as in trying every possibility. Brute-force and skill-based are at opposite ends of the spectrum. This is why the first jump by a skillful player is always to youtube to find out the remaining jumps. What about brute force is going to make the gameplay fun?

Well said, thank you.

You don’t have the experience with platformers, so why wouldn’t you just accept the experience of those who do platform? You’ve never played a platforming game by your own admission.

A jumping mushroom isn’t platforming. When those definitions were written, they were written in a vacuum. Stuff like jumping mushrooms that require zero skill to use didn’t likely exist at all in any game.

This game isn’t a platformer, and saying it does won’t change that.

Vayne.8563:

Djinn.9245:

Raine.1394:

For those unsure of the game genre in use when playing HoT I suggest the following exercise. I use the word exercise but it is not hard at all.

1. Google with search term platformer game
2. your first hit will be the wiki for the platform game genre. Game genre is by definition and luckily the wiki uses the standard definitions.
3. The first sentence of the article reads: “Platform game (or platformer) is a video game which involves guiding an avatar to jump between suspended platforms and/or over obstacles to advance the game. These challenges are known as jumping puzzles or freerunning.”

There. That wasn’t hard at all. The key aspects to gameplay in a platform game are 1) navigation of platforms, and 2) advancing the game thereby. Vanilla GW2 with jumping puzzles was an MMO not a platformer. You could navigate platforms all day but you were not advancing the core game. An example of advancing the core game is arriving at VB and discovering that you need both gliding and updrafts to begin advancing the core game.

The problem is not having elements of platforming in GW2. Jumping puzzles were absolutely brilliant. You could knock youself out with them and have a ton of fun. At the same time Player X could ignore them and derive their fun from standard MMO aspects of the game. Brilliant.

And, for the last comentator here, it has nothing to do with game “difficulty”. Because the full genre here is ‘platformer obscura’ you can’t figure anything out except by brute force as in trying every possibility. Brute-force and skill-based are at opposite ends of the spectrum. This is why the first jump by a skillful player is always to youtube to find out the remaining jumps. What about brute force is going to make the gameplay fun?

Well said, thank you.

You don’t have the experience with platformers, so why wouldn’t you just accept the experience of those who do platform? You’ve never played a platforming game by your own admission.

A jumping mushroom isn’t platforming. When those definitions were written, they were written in a vacuum. Stuff like jumping mushrooms that require zero skill to use didn’t likely exist at all in any game.

This game isn’t a platformer, and saying it does won’t change that.

As Raine mentioned above game genre exist in their respective definitions. If you were to follow the steps in Raine’s post you would arrive at a definition of ‘platform game’ or ‘platformer’. Not because you or Raine know enough for the rest of us to stop thinking, but rather, one of of you (Raine) took the easy path of chasing down the definition for the rest of us. You actually don’t need to hunt down someone who claims to know what they are talking about, and you don’t need to trust the wiki as any gaming site will have same basic definitions.

Platforming is so basic that it lives inside of two definitions: 1) navigation of platforms, and 2) advancing the game thereby. It doesn’t say anything about level of skill, but it’s typical to the genre to modulate difficulty over time.

Platform games are platform games not because enough people know enough about gaming that they don’t need to ask what a platformer is, but rather, they know because they’ve learned the definition of the gaming genre. Read Raine’s post as he/she lays it out for you.

Gwilym.4257:

Vayne.8563:

Djinn.9245:

Raine.1394:

For those unsure of the game genre in use when playing HoT I suggest the following exercise. I use the word exercise but it is not hard at all.

1. Google with search term platformer game
2. your first hit will be the wiki for the platform game genre. Game genre is by definition and luckily the wiki uses the standard definitions.
3. The first sentence of the article reads: “Platform game (or platformer) is a video game which involves guiding an avatar to jump between suspended platforms and/or over obstacles to advance the game. These challenges are known as jumping puzzles or freerunning.”

There. That wasn’t hard at all. The key aspects to gameplay in a platform game are 1) navigation of platforms, and 2) advancing the game thereby. Vanilla GW2 with jumping puzzles was an MMO not a platformer. You could navigate platforms all day but you were not advancing the core game. An example of advancing the core game is arriving at VB and discovering that you need both gliding and updrafts to begin advancing the core game.

The problem is not having elements of platforming in GW2. Jumping puzzles were absolutely brilliant. You could knock youself out with them and have a ton of fun. At the same time Player X could ignore them and derive their fun from standard MMO aspects of the game. Brilliant.

And, for the last comentator here, it has nothing to do with game “difficulty”. Because the full genre here is ‘platformer obscura’ you can’t figure anything out except by brute force as in trying every possibility. Brute-force and skill-based are at opposite ends of the spectrum. This is why the first jump by a skillful player is always to youtube to find out the remaining jumps. What about brute force is going to make the gameplay fun?

Well said, thank you.

You don’t have the experience with platformers, so why wouldn’t you just accept the experience of those who do platform? You’ve never played a platforming game by your own admission.

A jumping mushroom isn’t platforming. When those definitions were written, they were written in a vacuum. Stuff like jumping mushrooms that require zero skill to use didn’t likely exist at all in any game.

This game isn’t a platformer, and saying it does won’t change that.

As Raine mentioned above game genre exist in their respective definitions. If you were to follow the steps in Raine’s post you would arrive at a definition of ‘platform game’ or ‘platformer’. Not because you or Raine know enough for the rest of us to stop thinking, but rather, one of of you (Raine) took the easy path of chasing down the definition for the rest of us. You actually don’t need to hunt down someone who claims to know what they are talking about, and you don’t need to trust the wiki as any gaming site will have same basic definitions.

Platforming is so basic that it lives inside of two definitions: 1) navigation of platforms, and 2) advancing the game thereby. It doesn’t say anything about level of skill, but it’s typical to the genre to modulate difficulty over time.

Platform games are platform games not because enough people know enough about gaming that they don’t need to ask what a platformer is, but rather, they know because they’ve learned the definition of the gaming genre. Read Raine’s post as he/she lays it out for you.

But by that definition you’ve given Guild Wars 2 has always been a platformer, even more than HoT is. It’s that simple. You can’t have it both ways.

The major complaint people have about the platforming in HoT is that they can’t complete zones. By this definition you’ve always needed platforming to complain zones, as in from launch.

So either Guild Wars 2 has always been a platformer, or Guild Wars 2 is not a platformer.

Their definition its’ always been, my definition it’s never been.

The takeaway from this is HoT didn’t turn Guild Wars 2 into a platformer. You need more jumping and more skill to complete maps pre hot than you need in HoT itself.

Vayne.8563:

Gwilym.4257:

Vayne.8563:

Djinn.9245:

Raine.1394:

For those unsure of the game genre in use when playing HoT I suggest the following exercise. I use the word exercise but it is not hard at all.

1. Google with search term platformer game
2. your first hit will be the wiki for the platform game genre. Game genre is by definition and luckily the wiki uses the standard definitions.
3. The first sentence of the article reads: “Platform game (or platformer) is a video game which involves guiding an avatar to jump between suspended platforms and/or over obstacles to advance the game. These challenges are known as jumping puzzles or freerunning.”

There. That wasn’t hard at all. The key aspects to gameplay in a platform game are 1) navigation of platforms, and 2) advancing the game thereby. Vanilla GW2 with jumping puzzles was an MMO not a platformer. You could navigate platforms all day but you were not advancing the core game. An example of advancing the core game is arriving at VB and discovering that you need both gliding and updrafts to begin advancing the core game.

The problem is not having elements of platforming in GW2. Jumping puzzles were absolutely brilliant. You could knock youself out with them and have a ton of fun. At the same time Player X could ignore them and derive their fun from standard MMO aspects of the game. Brilliant.

And, for the last comentator here, it has nothing to do with game “difficulty”. Because the full genre here is ‘platformer obscura’ you can’t figure anything out except by brute force as in trying every possibility. Brute-force and skill-based are at opposite ends of the spectrum. This is why the first jump by a skillful player is always to youtube to find out the remaining jumps. What about brute force is going to make the gameplay fun?

Well said, thank you.

You don’t have the experience with platformers, so why wouldn’t you just accept the experience of those who do platform? You’ve never played a platforming game by your own admission.

A jumping mushroom isn’t platforming. When those definitions were written, they were written in a vacuum. Stuff like jumping mushrooms that require zero skill to use didn’t likely exist at all in any game.

This game isn’t a platformer, and saying it does won’t change that.

As Raine mentioned above game genre exist in their respective definitions. If you were to follow the steps in Raine’s post you would arrive at a definition of ‘platform game’ or ‘platformer’. Not because you or Raine know enough for the rest of us to stop thinking, but rather, one of of you (Raine) took the easy path of chasing down the definition for the rest of us. You actually don’t need to hunt down someone who claims to know what they are talking about, and you don’t need to trust the wiki as any gaming site will have same basic definitions.

Platforming is so basic that it lives inside of two definitions: 1) navigation of platforms, and 2) advancing the game thereby. It doesn’t say anything about level of skill, but it’s typical to the genre to modulate difficulty over time.

Platform games are platform games not because enough people know enough about gaming that they don’t need to ask what a platformer is, but rather, they know because they’ve learned the definition of the gaming genre. Read Raine’s post as he/she lays it out for you.

But by that definition you’ve given Guild Wars 2 has always been a platformer, even more than HoT is. It’s that simple. You can’t have it both ways.

The major complaint people have about the platforming in HoT is that they can’t complete zones. By this definition you’ve always needed platforming to complain zones, as in from launch.

So either Guild Wars 2 has always been a platformer, or Guild Wars 2 is not a platformer.

Their definition its’ always been, my definition it’s never been.

The takeaway from this is HoT didn’t turn Guild Wars 2 into a platformer. You need more jumping and more skill to complete maps pre hot than you need in HoT itself.

I don’t want it both ways; one definition to rule them all! GW2 was never a platformer and never a platformer by the stated definition of a plaform game. Remember 2? That went: “2) advancing the game thereby.” That is, advancing the game through platforming. Platforming (jumping puzzles, etc.) in vanilla GW2 was always take it or leave it—the core game didn’t care if you platformed or not. In HoT you advance the game through platforming. Don’t know how to break this down further for you; my process has always been to read the English and understand the concept expressed. Maybe someone else could jump in here.

Gwilym.4257:

Vayne.8563:

Gwilym.4257:

Vayne.8563:

Djinn.9245:

Raine.1394:

For those unsure of the game genre in use when playing HoT I suggest the following exercise. I use the word exercise but it is not hard at all.

snip

Well said, thank you.

You don’t have the experience with platformers, so why wouldn’t you just accept the experience of those who do platform? You’ve never played a platforming game by your own admission.

A jumping mushroom isn’t platforming. When those definitions were written, they were written in a vacuum. Stuff like jumping mushrooms that require zero skill to use didn’t likely exist at all in any game.

This game isn’t a platformer, and saying it does won’t change that.

As Raine mentioned above game genre exist in their respective definitions. If you were to follow the steps in Raine’s post you would arrive at a definition of ‘platform game’ or ‘platformer’. Not because you or Raine know enough for the rest of us to stop thinking, but rather, one of of you (Raine) took the easy path of chasing down the definition for the rest of us. You actually don’t need to hunt down someone who claims to know what they are talking about, and you don’t need to trust the wiki as any gaming site will have same basic definitions.

Platforming is so basic that it lives inside of two definitions: 1) navigation of platforms, and 2) advancing the game thereby. It doesn’t say anything about level of skill, but it’s typical to the genre to modulate difficulty over time.

Platform games are platform games not because enough people know enough about gaming that they don’t need to ask what a platformer is, but rather, they know because they’ve learned the definition of the gaming genre. Read Raine’s post as he/she lays it out for you.

But by that definition you’ve given Guild Wars 2 has always been a platformer, even more than HoT is. It’s that simple. You can’t have it both ways.

The major complaint people have about the platforming in HoT is that they can’t complete zones. By this definition you’ve always needed platforming to complain zones, as in from launch.

So either Guild Wars 2 has always been a platformer, or Guild Wars 2 is not a platformer.

Their definition its’ always been, my definition it’s never been.

The takeaway from this is HoT didn’t turn Guild Wars 2 into a platformer. You need more jumping and more skill to complete maps pre hot than you need in HoT itself.

I don’t want it both ways; one definition to rule them all! GW2 was never a platformer and never a platformer by the stated definition of a plaform game. Remember 2? That went: “2) advancing the game thereby.” That is, advancing the game through platforming. Platforming (jumping puzzles, etc.) in vanilla GW2 was always take it or leave it—the core game didn’t care if you platformed or not. In HoT you advance the game through platforming. Don’t know how to break this down further for you; my process has always been to read the English and understand the concept expressed. Maybe someone else could jump in here.

Either map completion advances the game or it doesn’t. For many people it does. If map completion doesn’t advance the game, you’d be right, but most of the complaints we see about platforming are about map completion.

If you need it to complete the map, it’s part of map completion. You can’t make a legendary weapon without it, which mean consider to be an end game goal. The only way to advance that end game goal is map completion which required, in the core game, platforming.

HoT isn’t any different, except the platforming required is easier.

There are a couple tests that you should apply when evaluating whether a game is a ‘platformer’ or not, and that’s the intent of the designer and the intent of the player. Now lets look at the maps.

The intent of players is not to platform, it is to quest, gather, kill, explore, play meta.. No player says to themselves, i want to platform, i wil go to HOT. The intent of the designer was to create a more complicated map where vertical travel was an important element to provide value and fun for gliding. Consider how dull gliding would be if the maps was a dull set of vertical slabs.

Now jumping puzzles and Adventures are very different, these are designed very explicitly to be a platforming sub game – the reason for the puzzles existence is to offer a challenging platforming route where the goal is to beat the difficult jumps. The same challenge we get in jumping puzzles in every other zone in GW2.

What we have here are players who don’t like a map trying to user the term ‘platformer’ as a derogatory term to justify their dislike.