Guild Wars 2

vesica tempestas.1563:

There are a couple tests that you should apply when evaluating whether a game is a ‘platformer’ or not, and that’s the intent of the designer and the intent of the player. Now lets look at the maps.

The intent of players is not to platform, it is to quest, gather, kill, explore, play meta.. No player says to themselves, i want to platform, i wil go to HOT. The intent of the designer was to create a more complicated map where vertical travel was an important element to provide value and fun for gliding. Consider how dull gliding would be if the maps was a dull set of vertical slabs.

Now jumping puzzles and Adventures are very different, these are designed very explicitly to be a platforming sub game – the reason for the puzzles existence is to offer a challenging platforming route where the goal is to beat the difficult jumps. The same challenge we get in jumping puzzles in every other zone in GW2.

What we have here are players who don’t like a map trying to user the term ‘platformer’ as a derogatory term to justify their dislike.

As I said when I originally mentioned “platformer”, I don’t like the direction GW2 is going with Anet making it more and more twitch / platforming. What I meant by that is the initial introduction of platforming elements in Dry Top and the continuation of that trend and increased emphasis on vertical play in HoT and forward. Whether you think that platforming elements make HoT maps “platformers” or make them “like platformers but not really” is just semantics. If anyone wants to make a case that they “actually aren’t platformers”, that really doesn’t matter to me. What matters to me is that they are enough like platformers that I don’t like it. And it is a severe departure from the original game mode which I prefer and was why I purchased the game.

‘platforming’ isn’t a thing, and there’s a difference between an objective view and a subjective view.

Gwilym.4257:

I don’t want it both ways; one definition to rule them all! GW2 was never a platformer and never a platformer by the stated definition of a plaform game. Remember 2? That went: “2) advancing the game thereby.” That is, advancing the game through platforming. Platforming (jumping puzzles, etc.) in vanilla GW2 was always take it or leave it—the core game didn’t care if you platformed or not. In HoT you advance the game through platforming. Don’t know how to break this down further for you; my process has always been to read the English and understand the concept expressed. Maybe someone else could jump in here.

I think you’re taking too broad a view of the definition. Look at games that actually fit in the “platformer” genre and you see that “advancing the game thereby” refers to the bulk of the challenge revolving around technical jumping (e.g. Super Mario Bros.).

HoT and GW2 require little of that outside of JPs. So, while HoT does require some platforming elements in terms of jumping, gliding, finding the next updraft, etc., it hardly fits in the same genre as traditional platformers like Super Mario Bros.

A compromise: HoT contains some mild platforming elements, some of which are a soft barrier to advancement. I can get in line with that because I hate adventures, some of which are platform-y. You can work around adventures, but it makes your pathway to unlocking all of your masteries that much more difficult.

Djinn.9245:

vesica tempestas.1563:

There are a couple tests that you should apply when evaluating whether a game is a ‘platformer’ or not, and that’s the intent of the designer and the intent of the player. Now lets look at the maps.

The intent of players is not to platform, it is to quest, gather, kill, explore, play meta.. No player says to themselves, i want to platform, i wil go to HOT. The intent of the designer was to create a more complicated map where vertical travel was an important element to provide value and fun for gliding. Consider how dull gliding would be if the maps was a dull set of vertical slabs.

Now jumping puzzles and Adventures are very different, these are designed very explicitly to be a platforming sub game – the reason for the puzzles existence is to offer a challenging platforming route where the goal is to beat the difficult jumps. The same challenge we get in jumping puzzles in every other zone in GW2.

What we have here are players who don’t like a map trying to user the term ‘platformer’ as a derogatory term to justify their dislike.

As I said when I originally mentioned “platformer”, I don’t like the direction GW2 is going with Anet making it more and more twitch / platforming. What I meant by that is the initial introduction of platforming elements in Dry Top and the continuation of that trend and increased emphasis on vertical play in HoT and forward. Whether you think that platforming elements make HoT maps “platformers” or make them “like platformers but not really” is just semantics. If anyone wants to make a case that they “actually aren’t platformers”, that really doesn’t matter to me. What matters to me is that they are enough like platformers that I don’t like it. And it is a severe departure from the original game mode which I prefer and was why I purchased the game.

I agree. Word play is fun, but as I said initially, irrelevant. We each like what we like and nothing is going to change that. Although, there is probably some value in explaining our positions to better define what is meant by “platforming elements”. That seems to be the point of contention. Many players seem to love the addition of gliding and mostly take issue with the convoluted layouts and the difficulty of exploring them.

as i said, objective and subjective e.g ‘convoluted’ I was talking about an objective evaluation of wether GW2 HOT zones were designed to be aimed at people who enjoy platformer games – and it is clearly not..if you are objective. Anyone can give their opinion, but that doesn’t make a thing factual. Simply put because someone thinks a thing is a ‘platformer’ when it was clearly designed not to be a platformer then that does not make it true.

also, the new zone is less complicated than HOT. There is no ‘direction’ there is simply a game that is expanding, and it would be a dull game if every zone that was introduced was simply the same as came before with a new skin.

vesica tempestas.1563:

as i said, objective and subjective e.g ‘convoluted’ I was talking about an objective evaluation of wether GW2 HOT zones were designed to be aimed at people who enjoy platformer games – and it is clearly not..if you are objective. Anyone can give their opinion, but that doesn’t make a thing factual. Simply put because someone thinks a thing is a ‘platformer’ when it was clearly designed not to be a platformer then that does not make it true.

also, the new zone is less complicated than HOT. There is no ‘direction’ there is simply a game that is expanding, and it would be a dull game if every zone that was introduced was simply the same as came before with a new skin.

And the HoT zones clearly were designed for people who enjoy platformers if you are being objective.

See I can call an opinion an objective fact too. Fun stuff.

That’s such a baseless opinion. The elements that resemble HoT as a ‘platformer’ game are such a small part of what HoT is, that it makes no sense to even think it was put there or would even mildly appeal to anyone into that type of game. I mean, did I actually read someone try to compare jumping mushrooms in HoT to Mario Bros in the last few pages? Just …. WOW. Those straws are getting REALLY short right now aren’t they.

As usual, a forum discussion gets derailed by arguments over a term. Perhaps, rather than focusing on someone’s use of the term “platformer,” we could instead focus on the fact that getting around in HoT is a great deal more reliant on vertical movement and gimmicks than either the core game, or most of the games in the MMO genre. That choice on ANet’s part was bound to displease some players.

IndigoSundown.5419:

As usual, a forum discussion gets derailed by arguments over a term. Perhaps, rather than focusing on someone’s use of the term “platformer,” we could instead focus on the fact that getting around in HoT is a great deal more reliant on vertical movement and gimmicks than either the core game, or most of the games in the MMO genre. That choice on ANet’s part was bound to displease some players.

But that’s just it. It’s not that hard to get around HoT. The actual issue is probably more the masteries than the difficulty in getting around.

The jumping mushrooms pose no difficulty in getting around once you’ve unlocked them. The nuhoch wallows pose no difficulty once you unlock them. Gliding is hitting your space bar. It’s not much different from running.

However, reaching certain updrafts is difficult if you don’t have lean gliding and later unlimited gliding. This is by design.

But the difficulty isn’t in the platforming elements. It’s in the unlocking elements. Once you’ve unlocked stuff, nothing is platforming or difficult. As I’ve said, many times now, I’ve showed people how to get around every single HOT zone with great success…even people that said it was impossible.

Remember Old Dirt Beard and how he used to complain about how hard HoT was and how impossible. I took him around once, on one day and he hasn’t complained since.

The problem with the term isn’t semantics. The problem with the term is how misleading it is. And if you tell people twitch mechanics are needed to use a jumping mushroom or an updraft or a nuhoch wallow you’re creating a false impression.

It’s simply not like that. Not even a little.

What is like that are the adventures and a couple of jumping puzzles in HOT, but that’ the same with the core game and mini games. 2

Ashen.2907:

vesica tempestas.1563:

as i said, objective and subjective e.g ‘convoluted’ I was talking about an objective evaluation of wether GW2 HOT zones were designed to be aimed at people who enjoy platformer games – and it is clearly not..if you are objective. Anyone can give their opinion, but that doesn’t make a thing factual. Simply put because someone thinks a thing is a ‘platformer’ when it was clearly designed not to be a platformer then that does not make it true.

also, the new zone is less complicated than HOT. There is no ‘direction’ there is simply a game that is expanding, and it would be a dull game if every zone that was introduced was simply the same as came before with a new skin.

And the HoT zones clearly were designed for people who enjoy platformers if you are being objective.

See I can call an opinion an objective fact too. Fun stuff.

that fact that players do not go to HOT to play a platformer is fact, not opinion. Its interesting that the only people who think its a platformer is those people who dislike it isnt it. Nothing wrong with not liking the design of the HOT zones, but you should ask yourself why you have the need to justify your dislike with an attempt to label it as something that it is not.

Personally, when it comes to maps I prefer they not be mazes or obstacle courses….. I don’t like Nintendo injected into the maps either….

vesica tempestas.1563:

that fact that players do not go to HOT to play a platformer is fact, not opinion.

So you somehow have evidence that all players do not go to HoT to play a platformer? Or maybe you meant “some players” – how many? How did you get this evidence?

Facts are based on evidence.

Djinn.9245:

vesica tempestas.1563:

that fact that players do not go to HOT to play a platformer is fact, not opinion.

So you somehow have evidence that all players do not go to HoT to play a platformer? Or maybe you meant “some players” – how many? How did you get this evidence?

Facts are based on evidence.

Here is one datapoint …. I don’t play HoT to experience a platformer … I don’t think i’m unique in that regard either.

I think it’s pretty safe to say that people don’t log into MMO’s and expect to have a platformer experience … not sure what evidence you are looking for other than if you want a platformer game, you can buy one wihtout the MMO experience.

That statement isn’t unreasonable though, even without the ‘evidence’ you are asking for … what kind of person buys an MMO expansion hoping to get a platformer experience? Obviously someone that has no clue what MMO’s are about. So if you excluded those ‘special’ kinds of people from the discussion, that statement makes lots of sense to me.

vesica tempestas.1563:

Ashen.2907:

vesica tempestas.1563:

as i said, objective and subjective e.g ‘convoluted’ I was talking about an objective evaluation of wether GW2 HOT zones were designed to be aimed at people who enjoy platformer games – and it is clearly not..if you are objective. Anyone can give their opinion, but that doesn’t make a thing factual. Simply put because someone thinks a thing is a ‘platformer’ when it was clearly designed not to be a platformer then that does not make it true.

also, the new zone is less complicated than HOT. There is no ‘direction’ there is simply a game that is expanding, and it would be a dull game if every zone that was introduced was simply the same as came before with a new skin.

And the HoT zones clearly were designed for people who enjoy platformers if you are being objective.

See I can call an opinion an objective fact too. Fun stuff.

that fact that players do not go to HOT to play a platformer is fact, not opinion. Its interesting that the only people who think its a platformer is those people who dislike it isnt it. Nothing wrong with not liking the design of the HOT zones, but you should ask yourself why you have the need to justify your dislike with an attempt to label it as something that it is not.

I enjoy HoT and I label it as a platformer. Because that’s what it is.

From the Wikipedia: “Platform game (or platformer) is a video game which involves guiding an avatar to jump between suspended platforms and/or over obstacles to advance the game. These challenges are known as jumping puzzles or freerunning.”

In order to advance the game and to acquire hero points, one must jump using mushrooms and or gliding to reach the intended hero point which is, most of the time, behind a series of jumping platforms (trees that you can step on).

Whether or not players go to HoT for platforming, they are indeed platforming whether they like it or not.

Galtrix.7369:

vesica tempestas.1563:

Ashen.2907:

vesica tempestas.1563:

as i said, objective and subjective e.g ‘convoluted’ I was talking about an objective evaluation of wether GW2 HOT zones were designed to be aimed at people who enjoy platformer games – and it is clearly not..if you are objective. Anyone can give their opinion, but that doesn’t make a thing factual. Simply put because someone thinks a thing is a ‘platformer’ when it was clearly designed not to be a platformer then that does not make it true.

also, the new zone is less complicated than HOT. There is no ‘direction’ there is simply a game that is expanding, and it would be a dull game if every zone that was introduced was simply the same as came before with a new skin.

And the HoT zones clearly were designed for people who enjoy platformers if you are being objective.

See I can call an opinion an objective fact too. Fun stuff.

that fact that players do not go to HOT to play a platformer is fact, not opinion. Its interesting that the only people who think its a platformer is those people who dislike it isnt it. Nothing wrong with not liking the design of the HOT zones, but you should ask yourself why you have the need to justify your dislike with an attempt to label it as something that it is not.

I enjoy HoT and I label it as a platformer. Because that’s what it is.

From the Wikipedia: “Platform game (or platformer) is a video game which involves guiding an avatar to jump between suspended platforms and/or over obstacles to advance the game. These challenges are known as jumping puzzles or freerunning.”

In order to advance the game and to acquire hero points, one must jump using mushrooms and or gliding to reach the intended hero point which is, most of the time, behind a series of jumping platforms (trees that you can step on).

Whether or not players go to HoT for platforming, they are indeed platforming whether they like it or not.

Guild wars 2 is a lot more than the elements you have picked out, context matters, overal design goals and genre matter. You can cherry pick out any element from any game and look at it in isolation – what matters is design intent. Il say it again, the mmorpg genre and players dont go to hot maps because it is a platformer, being deliberately obtuse does not make this so either.

look at it another way, The core gameplay in HOT is meta events, this is what people play in the main. The main intent for the developers was the meta events and making the map more vertical to give value to gliding (or did you expect everyone to use stair lifts?) just because you jump onto platforms does not make it a platformer style game, just as killing mobs for loot over and over does not make it a Diablo 3 copy.

vesica tempestas.1563:

Galtrix.7369:

vesica tempestas.1563:

Ashen.2907:

vesica tempestas.1563:

as i said, objective and subjective e.g ‘convoluted’ I was talking about an objective evaluation of wether GW2 HOT zones were designed to be aimed at people who enjoy platformer games – and it is clearly not..if you are objective. Anyone can give their opinion, but that doesn’t make a thing factual. Simply put because someone thinks a thing is a ‘platformer’ when it was clearly designed not to be a platformer then that does not make it true.

also, the new zone is less complicated than HOT. There is no ‘direction’ there is simply a game that is expanding, and it would be a dull game if every zone that was introduced was simply the same as came before with a new skin.

And the HoT zones clearly were designed for people who enjoy platformers if you are being objective.

See I can call an opinion an objective fact too. Fun stuff.

that fact that players do not go to HOT to play a platformer is fact, not opinion. Its interesting that the only people who think its a platformer is those people who dislike it isnt it. Nothing wrong with not liking the design of the HOT zones, but you should ask yourself why you have the need to justify your dislike with an attempt to label it as something that it is not.

I enjoy HoT and I label it as a platformer. Because that’s what it is.

From the Wikipedia: “Platform game (or platformer) is a video game which involves guiding an avatar to jump between suspended platforms and/or over obstacles to advance the game. These challenges are known as jumping puzzles or freerunning.”

In order to advance the game and to acquire hero points, one must jump using mushrooms and or gliding to reach the intended hero point which is, most of the time, behind a series of jumping platforms (trees that you can step on).

Whether or not players go to HoT for platforming, they are indeed platforming whether they like it or not.

Guild wars 2 is a lot more than the elements you have picked out, context matters, overal design goals and genre matter. You can cherry pick out any element from any game and look at it in isolation – what matters is design intent.

What matters here is the word choice – Platform game (or platformer) is a video game which involves guiding an avatar to jump between suspended platforms and/or over obstacles to advance the game.

In order to advance HoT in the slightest, you must be willing to grind for the abilities to use mushrooms, leylines, and teleporters. This isn’t simply a part of HoT. This is HoT. If you choose not to platform – or use mushrooms and hop on trees, you will not progress, you will not pass go, and you will not collect your money, bruh.

What am I cherry-picking here? The entirety of HoT consists of jumping, gliding, and using shrooms to progress beyond a certain point.

Find me a fact that opposes anything I just said.

P.S: We’re not talking about GW2 as a whole. We’re only talking about HoT. If I labeled GW2 as a platformer, then it would be considered “cherry-picking”.

you spend less that a fraction of a percent of your life in GW2 getting the skill to jump on a mushroom, it is not core to the game, its is a minor element cherry picked out. Furthemore you don’t platform to get the fraction of a percent to get the skill to jump on a mushroom.

indecently one of the core facets of a mmorpg is that you advance your avatar in the overall virtual world, you do not advance in a linear fashion to a single winning line.

vesica tempestas.1563:

you spend less that a fraction of a percent of your life in GW2 getting the skill to jump on a mushroom, it is not core to the game, its is a minor element cherry picked out. Furthemore you don’t platform to get the fraction of a percent to get the skill to jump on a mushroom.

indecently one of the core facets of a mmorpg is that you advance your avatar in the overall virtual world, you do not advance in a linear fashion to a single winning line.

I’m convinced that using logic on the forums is like telling a fish that it is swimming in water. It doesn’t do anything, the fish doesn’t hear you, and the fish doesn’t care what you’re saying.

I will limit this argument down to a single question.

Can you acquire a hero point, that isn’t located on the ground, without the use of mushrooms/gliding/jumping?

And with that, I am done. Thank you.

if you are incapable of abstraction then yes you wont understand logic. You cherry picked (again) scenario is not the point, HOT maps are a sum of its parts. play meta quests for 1 hour or wander and gather, or farm mobs, (and even avoid jumping if you hate it) get your xp, get your precious mushroom etc that is so important to you – job done. In otherwords classic mmorpg gameplay, not classic platforming play.

vesica tempestas.1563:

if you are incapable of abstraction then yes you wont understand logic. You cherry picked (again) scenario is not the point, HOT maps are a sum of its parts. play meta quests for 1 hour or wander and gather, or farm mobs, (and even avoid jumping if you hate it) get your xp, get your precious mushroom etc that is so important to you – job done. In otherwords classic mmorpg gameplay, not classic platforming play.

And those do not progress the game in the slightest.

do you have much experience of mmorpg? it is all progress, you are progressing on a journey of your own choosing. The goal is not to ‘progress the game’. Gaining xp, masteries, gold towards other goals or simply enjoying playing your character – all classic well understood well know mmorpg ‘progress’

For Platformers you do progress the game, but that is not the core game play or goal of mmorpg’s at all. Maybe this is what you are failing to comprehend – perhaps your are younger or do not understand mmorpgs, i have no idea.

if you have a fear of jumping, you could even choose goals that avoid jumping if that’s your fancy – GW1 is a great choice here, you cannot jump at all!

vesica tempestas.1563:

Ashen.2907:

vesica tempestas.1563:

as i said, objective and subjective e.g ‘convoluted’ I was talking about an objective evaluation of wether GW2 HOT zones were designed to be aimed at people who enjoy platformer games – and it is clearly not..if you are objective. Anyone can give their opinion, but that doesn’t make a thing factual. Simply put because someone thinks a thing is a ‘platformer’ when it was clearly designed not to be a platformer then that does not make it true.

also, the new zone is less complicated than HOT. There is no ‘direction’ there is simply a game that is expanding, and it would be a dull game if every zone that was introduced was simply the same as came before with a new skin.

And the HoT zones clearly were designed for people who enjoy platformers if you are being objective.

See I can call an opinion an objective fact too. Fun stuff.

that fact that players do not go to HOT to play a platformer is fact, not opinion.

Nice moving of the goalpoasts. I made no comment about why people go to HoT. Only commented on your opinion about your expressed opinion about how they were designed.

But, I am more than willing to see the evidence that demonstrates that you have polled the entire playing population in order to determine that it is a fact that players do not go to HoT because of a desire to play a platformer. If it is an, “objective,” “fact,” that no players go there because of a desire to play a platformer within GW2, certainly you can prove it.

I am even willing to agree that it is unlikely that many players go to HoT specifically for any platforming aesthetics or platforming like gameplay, or even because they feel that it is platforming within GW2, but agreeing with your opinion on the matter does not make it a fact.

Personally I consider, and have seen other players (including Vayne) indicate that they consider jumping puzzles to be platforming. I know for a fact that players have gone to VB, a part of HoT (which according to you no one goes to for to play platforming), to do a jumping puzzle. So, players do go to HoT to play platforming.

vesica tempestas.1563:

Its interesting that the only people who think its a platformer is those people who dislike it isnt it. Nothing wrong with not liking the design of the HOT zones, but you should ask yourself why you have the need to justify your dislike with an attempt to label it as something that it is not.

I have described HoT, and you have quoted me as describing it, as having, “platforming aesthetics.” I do not label HoT as something it is not. In fact I have even posted that the worst I could say about the zones is not that they is poorly designed, but rather that they are poorly designed to appeal to me.

vesica tempestas.1563:

do you have much experience of mmorpg? it is all progress, you are progressing on a journey of your own choosing. The goal is not to ‘progress the game’. Gaining xp, masteries, gold towards other goals or simply enjoying playing your character – all classic well understood well know mmorpg ‘progress’

For Platformers you do progress the game, but that is not the core game play or goal of mmorpg’s at all. Maybe this is what you are failing to comprehend – perhaps your are younger or do not understand mmorpgs, i have no idea.

if you have a fear of jumping, you could even choose goals that avoid jumping if that’s your fancy – GW1 is a great choice here, you cannot jump at all!

You’re not progressing your character in that case either. Let’s make a list of all the things you can’t gain if you do not platform:

-hero points
-mastery points
-points of interest
-vistas
-achievement points
-world completion

… and many more. Your character does not progress in HoT because you’re not earning any of the above items.

Ah, the old, “You must be young” insult. Are you simply angry that I broke your “fact” that all players that label HoT as a platformer don’t enjoy it? I’ve played more MMOs than you even think exist in this world.

What was the purpose of giving us HoT? It’s another way to progress and have fun.
How do you progress? You earn hero points/mastery points
Can you do those without platforming? Nope.

The purpose of HoT isn’t for the players to ignore all of the content and sit at Auric Basin doing the meta event repeatedly until your eyes fall out. It is to gain hero points and mastery points that you CANNOT DO without platforming.

I will repeat: The purpose of HoT is to gain hero points and mastery points. Heck, I’m pretty sure you can’t even progress the main storyline without accruing enough mastery points (correct me if I’m wrong).

Galtrix.7369:

vesica tempestas.1563:

do you have much experience of mmorpg? it is all progress, you are progressing on a journey of your own choosing. The goal is not to ‘progress the game’. Gaining xp, masteries, gold towards other goals or simply enjoying playing your character – all classic well understood well know mmorpg ‘progress’

For Platformers you do progress the game, but that is not the core game play or goal of mmorpg’s at all. Maybe this is what you are failing to comprehend – perhaps your are younger or do not understand mmorpgs, i have no idea.

if you have a fear of jumping, you could even choose goals that avoid jumping if that’s your fancy – GW1 is a great choice here, you cannot jump at all!

You’re not progressing your character in that case either. Let’s make a list of all the things you can’t gain if you do not platform:

-hero points
-mastery points
-points of interest
-vistas
-achievement points
-world completion

… and many more. Your character does not progress in HoT because you’re not earning any of the above items.

Ah, the old, “You must be young” insult. Are you simply angry that I broke your “fact” that all players that label HoT as a platformer don’t enjoy it? I’ve played more MMOs than you even think exist in this world.

What was the purpose of giving us HoT? It’s another way to progress and have fun.
How do you progress? You earn hero points/mastery points
Can you do those without platforming? Nope.

The purpose of HoT isn’t for the players to ignore all of the content and sit at Auric Basin doing the meta event repeatedly until your eyes fall out. It is to gain hero points and mastery points that you CANNOT DO without platforming.

I will repeat: The purpose of HoT is to gain hero points and mastery points. Heck, I’m pretty sure you can’t even progress the main storyline without accruing enough mastery points (correct me if I’m wrong).

You can progress your character in HoT without platforming, you just cannot progress as far as if you did platform. You can gain some of each of those things (except completion) without platforming.

Ipso facto – you do not need a poll to tell you that mmorpg players playing a mmorpg play HOT zones because it was designed as a platformer. Wrong genre, wrong design intent, wrong goals.

Ashen.2907:

Galtrix.7369:

vesica tempestas.1563:

do you have much experience of mmorpg? it is all progress, you are progressing on a journey of your own choosing. The goal is not to ‘progress the game’. Gaining xp, masteries, gold towards other goals or simply enjoying playing your character – all classic well understood well know mmorpg ‘progress’

For Platformers you do progress the game, but that is not the core game play or goal of mmorpg’s at all. Maybe this is what you are failing to comprehend – perhaps your are younger or do not understand mmorpgs, i have no idea.

if you have a fear of jumping, you could even choose goals that avoid jumping if that’s your fancy – GW1 is a great choice here, you cannot jump at all!

You’re not progressing your character in that case either. Let’s make a list of all the things you can’t gain if you do not platform:

-hero points
-mastery points
-points of interest
-vistas
-achievement points
-world completion

… and many more. Your character does not progress in HoT because you’re not earning any of the above items.

Ah, the old, “You must be young” insult. Are you simply angry that I broke your “fact” that all players that label HoT as a platformer don’t enjoy it? I’ve played more MMOs than you even think exist in this world.

What was the purpose of giving us HoT? It’s another way to progress and have fun.
How do you progress? You earn hero points/mastery points
Can you do those without platforming? Nope.

The purpose of HoT isn’t for the players to ignore all of the content and sit at Auric Basin doing the meta event repeatedly until your eyes fall out. It is to gain hero points and mastery points that you CANNOT DO without platforming.

I will repeat: The purpose of HoT is to gain hero points and mastery points. Heck, I’m pretty sure you can’t even progress the main storyline without accruing enough mastery points (correct me if I’m wrong).

You can progress your character in HoT without platforming, you just cannot progress as far as if you did platform. You can gain some of each of those things (except completion) without platforming.

Agreed. I mentioned that in a previous post, but I didn’t feel the need to repeat it in this one for the other guy.

jumping is not ‘platforming’ Platforming games is a genre with a very particular goalset (as per jumping puzzles) it is not a mechanic.

One of the adventure games involves racing a bike – that does not make HOT a racing game. The core gameplay of HOT is meta events.

vesica tempestas.1563:

Ipso facto – you do not need a poll to tell you that mmorpg players playing a mmorpg play HOT zones because it was designed as a platformer. Wrong genre, wrong design intent, wrong goals.

Since launch there have been people loggin into GW2 expressing dissatisfaction with the fact that it does not have elements that it was specifically advertised as not having. Apparently MMO players, sometimes, do things regardless of it being the wrong design, wrong game, etc.

In addition, as pointed out previously, HoT includes jumping puzzles. These are platforming play. People log into HoT specifically to do this content. Heck, I have done so. Didn’t care for it, but completing that content was the sole reason for me to log into the game that session. There were other people there at the time. They logged into HoT to, in part at least, play platforming as well.

vesica tempestas.1563:

jumping is not ‘platforming’ Platforming games is a genre with a very particular goalset (as per jumping puzzles) it is not a mechanic.

One of the adventure games involves racing a bike – that does not make HOT a racing game. The core gameplay of HOT is meta events.

And it is completely possible to log into HoT with no intention of playing its, “core gameplay,” as you put it, but rather to complete platforming content. I have done so. I have known others to do so as well.

that’s true i could log into Diablo 3 and run about avoiding everything and call it an exploration game – but that does not make it an exploration game. again, it is all about deign intent and genre. And i call bs on people who specifically logon to play HOT because its a platformer. And yes jumping puzzles is a platforming sub game, no-one said it wasn’t.

vesica tempestas.1563:

that’s true i could log into Diablo 3 and run about avoiding everything and call it an exploration game – but that does not make it an exploration game. again, it is all about deign intent and genre. And i call bs on people who specifically logon to play HOT because its a platformer. And yes jumping puzzles is a platforming sub game, no-one said it wasn’t.

GW2, and MMOs in general, is many things, comprised of its constituent parts.

GW2 is a small group PvP game.
GW2 is a large scale realm-like PvP game.
GW2 is a small group instanced PvE game.
GW2 is a large scale even open world game.
GW2 is a mindless hack-n-slash combat game.
GW2 is a tactical combat game.
GW2 is a role playing game (I don’t rRP in GW2 but have in other MMOs).
GW2 is a mini-games game.
GW2 is an exploration game.
GW2 is a crafting game.

and yes, GW2 is a platforming game.

If the developers specifically chose to create content of a sort to appeal to players who enjoy that sort of content, spending resources on that sort of content, choosing to not spend those same resources on the games, “core gameplay,” content, then the developers intended to attract people who enjoy that sort of content, and intended people to play it. Again, they sacrificed more, “core gameplay,” specifically to include platforming.

um now your arguing my point. your list is correct , jumping is a tiny segment of GW2, you can say GW2 has a platforming element, but it is not a platformer, it is a mmorpg. as with your list, you can see the same on the official HOT wiki, 4500 words describing its content, the word ‘jump’ is used once. They did not sacrifice a thing, it is a tiny element of a huge game added to give diversity.

I should add your list is worded incorrectly

GW2 has small group PvP .
GW2 has large scale realm-like PvP .
GW2 is a small group instanced PvE .
GW2 has a large scale even open world .
GW2 has mindless hack-n-slash combat .
GW2 has tactical combat .
GW2 supports role playing (I don’t rRP in GW2 but have in other MMOs).
GW2 has mini-games .
GW2 is an exploration game.
GW2 is a crafting game.

to clarify, GW2 is not a platforming game, it is a mmorpg that has platforming sub games.

Ashen.2907:

and yes, GW2 is a platforming game.

GW2 is as much a platforming game as it is a chat room, or a way to wear out your mouse, or a way to create pretty wallpaper for your computer.

Point is, the game is more than the sum of it’s parts. If you want to be selective and say it’s a platformer to prove your point, then you are ignoring all the OTHER things that the game is as well to make that point and even disprove or diminish your point; i.e., you are cherrypicking. That’s not an honest approach to having a discussion with people.

vesica tempestas.1563:

to clarify, GW2 is not a platforming game, it is a mmorpg that has platforming sub games.

It is an MMORPGs, a genre comprised of many components. All MMORPGs are multiple games in one. GW2 happens to be a platforming game among its, “multiple games in one,” aspects.

Obtena.7952:

you are ignoring all the OTHER things that the game is as well to make that point and even disprove or diminish your point; i.e., you are cherrypicking. That’s not an honest approach to having a discussion with people.

How can it be cherrypicking if I make a point of saying that it is more than just a platformer, going on to list some of the many other things that the game is as well?

Outright lying is not an honest approach to having a discussion with people.

mmorpg are not multiple games in one, a mmorpg it is a sum of its parts. all these elements are parts. with the core thread being avatar development.

a classic programming OO analogy is a car which is a sum of its parts, it has a wheel it has an engine etc. you call a car a car when all these parts work together. you never however point at a car and say that is a wheel, and that is an engine. and that is a car.

Likewise HOT has a small platforming element (jumping puzzles and adventures) this does not make it a platformer – it is a mmorpg zone, that in itself is part of an mmorpg game. you quest, you do meta, you kill, you gather, you explore etc etc. You can entirely avoid jumping puzzles and adventures if you wish as per typical GW2 design approach.

maybe this helps to understand my point of view:

disliking the verticality of HOT is fine.

disliking jumping puzzles and adventures (which is platforming) is fine.

confusing the 2 above and classifying an entire zone as ‘platforming’ is incorrect.

It’s you against wikipedia here. Sorry bud.

vesica tempestas.1563:

maybe this helps to understand my point of view:

disliking the verticality of HOT is fine.

disliking jumping puzzles and adventures (which is platforming) is fine.

confusing the 2 above and classifying an entire zone as ‘platforming’ is incorrect.

No confusion.

HoT is intended as a platforming game just as it is intended as a combat game, a crafting game, an exploration game, and so on. Of course not the entirety of each zone is dedicated to each individual component of the design, after all crafting stations in GW2 take up an extremely small amount of space, and crafting is not required for participation, advancement of avatar, or game completion. Even so GW2 is a crafting game (in addition to being many other types of game as well).

If I gave the impression that I consider non platforming gameplay elements to be platforming, my apologies. I fully recognize that walking along a path from point A to point B, killing a mob along the way, completing an event, gathering some mithril, and so on are not themselves platforming. But the expansion, and the core game for that matter, is a platforming game among other things because it was designed for those to be parts of the gameplay experience.

Ashen.2907:

Obtena.7952:

you are ignoring all the OTHER things that the game is as well to make that point and even disprove or diminish your point; i.e., you are cherrypicking. That’s not an honest approach to having a discussion with people.

How can it be cherrypicking if I make a point of saying that it is more than just a platformer, going on to list some of the many other things that the game is as well?

Outright lying is not an honest approach to having a discussion with people.

Just because you list other things the game does doesn’t mean you’re looking at the game as a whole when you make arguments that choose a specific aspect of it, ignoring the rest. Funny you try to make that seem like that’s a lie somehow.

Ashen.2907:

vesica tempestas.1563:

maybe this helps to understand my point of view:

disliking the verticality of HOT is fine.

disliking jumping puzzles and adventures (which is platforming) is fine.

confusing the 2 above and classifying an entire zone as ‘platforming’ is incorrect.

No confusion.

HoT is intended as a platforming game just as it is intended as a combat game, a crafting game, an exploration game, and so on. Of course not the entirety of each zone is dedicated to each individual component of the design, after all crafting stations in GW2 take up an extremely small amount of space, and crafting is not required for participation, advancement of avatar, or game completion. Even so GW2 is a crafting game (in addition to being many other types of game as well).

If I gave the impression that I consider non platforming gameplay elements to be platforming, my apologies. I fully recognize that walking along a path from point A to point B, killing a mob along the way, completing an event, gathering some mithril, and so on are not themselves platforming. But the expansion, and the core game for that matter, is a platforming game among other things because it was designed for those to be parts of the gameplay experience.

well it is not intended as a platforming game, you are incorrect. and your interpretation of synergy is flawed. If you read the specifications from the official anet wiki pages it is clear, If you look at gaming theory it is clear, if you look at intent it is clear, if you look at how players play HOT it is clear. Hot is not a platforming game.

vesica tempestas.1563:

um now your arguing my point. your list is correct , jumping is a tiny segment of GW2, you can say GW2 has a platforming element, but it is not a platformer, it is a mmorpg. as with your list, you can see the same on the official HOT wiki, 4500 words describing its content, the word ‘jump’ is used once. They did not sacrifice a thing, it is a tiny element of a huge game added to give diversity.

I should add your list is worded incorrectly

GW2 has small group PvP .
GW2 has large scale realm-like PvP .
GW2 is a small group instanced PvE .
GW2 has a large scale even open world .
GW2 has mindless hack-n-slash combat .
GW2 has tactical combat .
GW2 supports role playing (I don’t rRP in GW2 but have in other MMOs).
GW2 has mini-games .
GW2 is an exploration game.
GW2 is a crafting game.

You really don’t want to get into a grammar argument. Where are the capital letters at the start of your sentences?

It happens that GW2 can be viewed as a PvP game if PvP is all you play. So he is not wrong.

rofl it wasn’t a criticism of the grammar. A game is a sum of its parts, each part != the game. Since Platforming represents a tiny faction of the game it is incorrect to call it a platformer, its not rocket science here. It is a mmorpg.

Hers another example, I play Eve exclusively as a pve roleplayer, that does not make eve a pve roleplaying game, it is a hardcore pvp game.

If i spent 100% of my time doing puzzles in GW2 i may call it a puzzler in my head, but it is not – it is a mmorpg.

So to take my example, if i pve exclusively in Eve does it make Eve a PVE game?

vesica tempestas.1563:

So to take my example, if i pve exclusively in Eve does it make Eve a PVE game?

Yes

lol interesting and there we have it. Ask yourself this, the vast majority of Eve players and developers think it is a hardcore PVP game with a pve element, are they all wrong too?

vesica tempestas.1563:

lol interesting and there we have it. Ask yourself this, the vast majority of Eve players and developers think it is a hardcore PVP game with a pve element, are they all wrong too?

Yes

Djinn.9245:

vesica tempestas.1563:

that fact that players do not go to HOT to play a platformer is fact, not opinion.

So you somehow have evidence that all players do not go to HoT to play a platformer? Or maybe you meant “some players” – how many? How did you get this evidence?

Facts are based on evidence.

I don’t go to hot to platform. I’ve played literally dozens of platform games, probably over a hundred in fact, and there’s very little in HoT that even remotely resembles a platform game.

You, on the other hand, haven’t play platform games, but you continue to insist, with no experience in the genre, that HoT is platforming.

Jumping puzzles in HoT are platforming. Adventures, many of them, are platforming. Basically running around HOT doing quest chains and map completion….not platforming.

Seems to me someone who’s done a lot of platforming would probably have a better idea of what platforming is, but that’s just me.

Galtrix.7369:

vesica tempestas.1563:

Galtrix.7369:

vesica tempestas.1563:

Ashen.2907:

vesica tempestas.1563:

as i said, objective and subjective e.g ‘convoluted’ I was talking about an objective evaluation of wether GW2 HOT zones were designed to be aimed at people who enjoy platformer games – and it is clearly not..if you are objective. Anyone can give their opinion, but that doesn’t make a thing factual. Simply put because someone thinks a thing is a ‘platformer’ when it was clearly designed not to be a platformer then that does not make it true.

also, the new zone is less complicated than HOT. There is no ‘direction’ there is simply a game that is expanding, and it would be a dull game if every zone that was introduced was simply the same as came before with a new skin.

And the HoT zones clearly were designed for people who enjoy platformers if you are being objective.

See I can call an opinion an objective fact too. Fun stuff.

that fact that players do not go to HOT to play a platformer is fact, not opinion. Its interesting that the only people who think its a platformer is those people who dislike it isnt it. Nothing wrong with not liking the design of the HOT zones, but you should ask yourself why you have the need to justify your dislike with an attempt to label it as something that it is not.

I enjoy HoT and I label it as a platformer. Because that’s what it is.

From the Wikipedia: “Platform game (or platformer) is a video game which involves guiding an avatar to jump between suspended platforms and/or over obstacles to advance the game. These challenges are known as jumping puzzles or freerunning.”

In order to advance the game and to acquire hero points, one must jump using mushrooms and or gliding to reach the intended hero point which is, most of the time, behind a series of jumping platforms (trees that you can step on).

Whether or not players go to HoT for platforming, they are indeed platforming whether they like it or not.

Guild wars 2 is a lot more than the elements you have picked out, context matters, overal design goals and genre matter. You can cherry pick out any element from any game and look at it in isolation – what matters is design intent.

What matters here is the word choice – Platform game (or platformer) is a video game which involves guiding an avatar to jump between suspended platforms and/or over obstacles to advance the game.

In order to advance HoT in the slightest, you must be willing to grind for the abilities to use mushrooms, leylines, and teleporters. This isn’t simply a part of HoT. This is HoT. If you choose not to platform – or use mushrooms and hop on trees, you will not progress, you will not pass go, and you will not collect your money, bruh.

What am I cherry-picking here? The entirety of HoT consists of jumping, gliding, and using shrooms to progress beyond a certain point.

Find me a fact that opposes anything I just said.

P.S: We’re not talking about GW2 as a whole. We’re only talking about HoT. If I labeled GW2 as a platformer, then it would be considered “cherry-picking”.

What obstacles do you have to jump over in HOT to advance the game, and more importantly how is that different from core Tyria, where you have to jump of stuff to get vistsas which advance the game, ie map completion?

Vayne.8563:

Galtrix.7369:

vesica tempestas.1563:

Galtrix.7369:

vesica tempestas.1563:

Ashen.2907:

vesica tempestas.1563:

as i said, objective and subjective e.g ‘convoluted’ I was talking about an objective evaluation of wether GW2 HOT zones were designed to be aimed at people who enjoy platformer games – and it is clearly not..if you are objective. Anyone can give their opinion, but that doesn’t make a thing factual. Simply put because someone thinks a thing is a ‘platformer’ when it was clearly designed not to be a platformer then that does not make it true.

also, the new zone is less complicated than HOT. There is no ‘direction’ there is simply a game that is expanding, and it would be a dull game if every zone that was introduced was simply the same as came before with a new skin.

And the HoT zones clearly were designed for people who enjoy platformers if you are being objective.

See I can call an opinion an objective fact too. Fun stuff.

that fact that players do not go to HOT to play a platformer is fact, not opinion. Its interesting that the only people who think its a platformer is those people who dislike it isnt it. Nothing wrong with not liking the design of the HOT zones, but you should ask yourself why you have the need to justify your dislike with an attempt to label it as something that it is not.

I enjoy HoT and I label it as a platformer. Because that’s what it is.

From the Wikipedia: “Platform game (or platformer) is a video game which involves guiding an avatar to jump between suspended platforms and/or over obstacles to advance the game. These challenges are known as jumping puzzles or freerunning.”

In order to advance the game and to acquire hero points, one must jump using mushrooms and or gliding to reach the intended hero point which is, most of the time, behind a series of jumping platforms (trees that you can step on).

Whether or not players go to HoT for platforming, they are indeed platforming whether they like it or not.

Guild wars 2 is a lot more than the elements you have picked out, context matters, overal design goals and genre matter. You can cherry pick out any element from any game and look at it in isolation – what matters is design intent.

What matters here is the word choice – Platform game (or platformer) is a video game which involves guiding an avatar to jump between suspended platforms and/or over obstacles to advance the game.

In order to advance HoT in the slightest, you must be willing to grind for the abilities to use mushrooms, leylines, and teleporters. This isn’t simply a part of HoT. This is HoT. If you choose not to platform – or use mushrooms and hop on trees, you will not progress, you will not pass go, and you will not collect your money, bruh.

What am I cherry-picking here? The entirety of HoT consists of jumping, gliding, and using shrooms to progress beyond a certain point.

Find me a fact that opposes anything I just said.

P.S: We’re not talking about GW2 as a whole. We’re only talking about HoT. If I labeled GW2 as a platformer, then it would be considered “cherry-picking”.

What obstacles do you have to jump over in HOT to advance the game, and more importantly how is that different from core Tyria, where you have to jump of stuff to get vistsas which advance the game, ie map completion?

In order to “not die” on the last boss of HoT, you need to get the updraft mastery. In order to get the updraft mastery, you need mastery points. In order to get mastery points, you have to complete some sort of platforming to get to the mastery points.

It’s different from core Tyria because platforming is essentially inserted into the main storyline by way of collecting mastery points in order to progress. The last boss is only one example of many where the game requires you to have enough mastery points to progress the storyline. If this were not the case, I would rethink my opinion that HoT is a platformer.