Guild Wars 2

Tyyni.2954:

phys.7689:

However, I cant really get with people implying 3 hours of effort on their pve charachters, is too much effort. If you dont want to spend 3 hours in PVE with your charachter, its likely you dont want to pve with that charachter.

To me this is big issue, and bit too much effort too.

I have 11 accounts, and all accounts have 8 characters. So totally I have 88 characters. I have played them one by one and level them all to level 80. I have all traits and skills open, so literally they are ready for next phase of plan. I have level them by opening waypoints and done all hearts and their stories. Only one of my character have done map completion.

Now when I have got my last character in this point I have started to do crafting and I want to do ascended gears to all of them. So I have started to work for it. I am farming materials and money for them. I know, I am totally late for that and maybe I am last person who is doing it, but that is my goal. To do ascended armor and weapons to all of them.

Now, my situation is this. I have 5,5 hours /week time to play this game. That’s why it has taken so long to level up all of my characters and I am in this crafting part.

So, I need to do more or less 65 skill challenges to rest of my 87 characters now. That kind of characters who have already open all skills and all traits. You say that it will take like 3 hours / 65 skill points and I have 5,5 hours / week time to play this game. So lets calculate:
3 hour x 87 Character = 261 hours
261 hours / 5,5 hours/week = 47, 4 weeks to get done those skill challenges.

That means I am just doing next 47,4 weeks skill challenges every hour what I can play, for those characters who already have opened once all skills and traits. That sounds WASTE OF TIME to me. I am not able to work for those ascended armors for 47,4 weeks.

Now someone asks why do I have so many accounts and so many characters. Just for supporting ArenaNet. I have spend to all these accounts big deal of real life money. I admit, it ends now. I will not spent even one dime for this game and I am not supporting ArenaNet anymore. I won’t even buy expansion, just because of those 47,4 weeks what I need to waste my time for doing something what I have already done once before. Just to get all my core game skills and traits open once again.

just be clear, you will only need to unlock skill challenges, if you have not already unlocked them.
being that you said you leveled you charachters by doing hearts, and getting way points, i am assuming you probably also did skill challenges around you.

its not about map completition it is ONLY about skill challenges, and you ONLY need 65 done. its retroactive.

heres how you tell, look at you charchters current number of skill challenges
is it greater than 65?

if yes, this charachter can unlock all core skills and traits, with no additional effort

All you PvE players who are basically telling WvW players to just suck it up and waste time on pointless and boring ‘skill’ challenges would be singing a different tune if A-net had made your character skill unlocks contingent on getting a certain number of WvW player kills to unlock each skill. Yes, we can do PvE skill challenges, because they require no skill, just a tolerance for hours of boredom. Those are hours we could be in WvW. What ever happened to ‘play the way you want’?

Perhaps the best compromise is to lock one trait line behind hero points, one behind WvWvW objectives, one behind dungeon completion, one behind fractal completion, one behind sPvP tracks, and the elite behind event completion.

Now everyone’s discriminated against equally!

Daddar.5971:

All you PvE players who are basically telling WvW players to just suck it up and waste time on pointless and boring ‘skill’ challenges would be singing a different tune if A-net had made your character skill unlocks contingent on getting a certain number of WvW player kills to unlock each skill. Yes, we can do PvE skill challenges, because they require no skill, just a tolerance for hours of boredom. Those are hours we could be in WvW. What ever happened to ‘play the way you want’?

After being told repeatedly to “suck it up” and “mmmmm. Delicious PvE tears” and other comments of this nature because I needed to go into WvW for each of my chars to get 100% map, my well of sympathy for WvW players needing to do PvE content has run dry. I’ve done the necessary skill points on my 8 chars and will do it on my Revenant. WvW players can do it to. (And I won’t even say “mmmmmm. Delicious WvW tears.”)

^ People are complaining about losing stuff they already earned. You cant possibly compare something as trivial as world completion to setting back characters, a thing they openly said they wouldn’t do.
And the next unhelpful suck it up post is…..

Raziel.4216:

^ People are complaining about losing stuff they already earned. You cant possibly compare something as trivial as world completion to setting back characters, a thing they openly said they wouldn’t do.
And the next unhelpful suck it up post is…..

If they ever said that they’ve changed it a long time ago when they reset the progress in fractals for a leaderboard that never arrived,

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Daddar.5971:

All you PvE players who are basically telling WvW players to just suck it up and waste time on pointless and boring ‘skill’ challenges would be singing a different tune if A-net had made your character skill unlocks contingent on getting a certain number of WvW player kills to unlock each skill. Yes, we can do PvE skill challenges, because they require no skill, just a tolerance for hours of boredom. Those are hours we could be in WvW. What ever happened to ‘play the way you want’?

After being told repeatedly to “suck it up” and “mmmmm. Delicious PvE tears” and other comments of this nature because I needed to go into WvW for each of my chars to get 100% map, my well of sympathy for WvW players needing to do PvE content has run dry. I’ve done the necessary skill points on my 8 chars and will do it on my Revenant. WvW players can do it to. (And I won’t even say “mmmmmm. Delicious WvW tears.”)

There’s a huge difference. The main one being:
1) World completion does absolutely nothing for you mechanically, the only thing it’s used for is legendary weapons, which aren’t particularly special other than for their skins. Stat changing is kind of nice, but without Sigil changing, it can’t be used particularly well. It’s still cheaper to just get an ascended copy for every type that you use. If I’m correct, almost everyone should be fine with grinding for skins.

Secondary, but much less relevant point: They already had to go into the PvE world for map completion, and for far more than the WvW side of it included. It would only be an apt comparison in that regard if more than half the hero points could only be acquired in WvWvW, and you needed to play both of them to unlock your traits/skills.

Tertiary point: You’re generalising PvE as a single entity. But within that sphere there are also other playstyles which don’t include map completion in their purview who suffer from it. It was possible to earn your traits from playing dungeons/fractals under the second system.

This doesn’t just hurt WvWvW players, but every single play style other than; Map Completion, 100% sPvP (Or some combination of the 3), and 100% City Roleplayers.

Honestly, this kittenes me off too. I have 14 toons and have them all lvl 80 with most skills and traits unlocked. Now ALL of that was for nothing and what’s going to happen in another 3 years? Are they going to have another reset and make everyone who already did this twice now have to do it again in some “cool” new way?

That’s my biggest concern…. If they do this now, are they going to do it in the future? Is this what they’re going to do when a large chunk of the player base is bored and moves on to other games? Throw the game on a 75% sale then expect the few old players that are still around to redo everything? Hey look! “New” stuff to do! Have fun guys!

Edit: I’m mostly PvE. I only PvP when they have call of the mists active and never ever wvw anymore. Once a month in wvw tops. I can’t even imagine how angry pvp and wvw players must be.

Hey, ANET? It would go a long way if you could simply confirm how many points each skill challenge in the world will be worth. I mean, I’m assuming it’ll be more than just a 1:1 conversion, since we currently do not gain anywhere near 400 skill points for leveling to 80, and that’s the amount of hero points our leveling will now translate into. Interestingly enough, everyone, we used to get 1 skill point per level, which was 80 skill points for reaching level 80. 80 multiplied by 5… Huh. I’m no good at math, but that seems to be 400 points.

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Raziel.4216:

^ People are complaining about losing stuff they already earned. You cant possibly compare something as trivial as world completion to setting back characters, a thing they openly said they wouldn’t do.
And the next unhelpful suck it up post is…..

If they ever said that they’ve changed it a long time ago when they reset the progress in fractals for a leaderboard that never arrived,

#fractalresetneverforget

I kind of get where the people of the same mindset as the OP in this topic are coming from. However, having to re-unlock skills with hero points that are given to character based on that specific characters progress related its level and skill challenges completed might be the only real way they can implement migration to this system realistically.

They probably don’t have the data about how a character unlocked a specific trait or skill. Whether a trait was unlocked through exploration or a trait guide. There is no way to put a value on time invested anyways, and without the data about trait guide usage (because storing such data at least on such long term on the off chance it might be necessary is wasteful) it is impossible to make a more accurate migration than what I outlined above.

And even if there was a way to exactly refund the costs, there is always a point after which any in-game investment should be considered non-refundable because of the impacts sudden surges of in-game resources have on the economy.

In short there is no way they can retain any players current investment 1:1 with reasonable effort because the new system is so different and a migration path that is only ever used once should not be overly complicated.

Personally, I would rather see them have the freedom to design new systems as they please rather than be overly concerned about the transition and have that limit their possibilities to design new systems.

Crise.9401:

I kind of get where the people of the same mindset as the OP in this topic are coming from. However, having to re-unlock skills with hero points that are given to character based on that specific characters progress related its level and skill challenges completed might be the only real way they can implement migration to this system realistically.

Then they should have designed a different system. One that would not require taking abilities away from people that already had them.

And actually, there are ways to do migration without people losing things. I can think of several offhand, and seen some proposed in this and other threads as well. It’s just a matter of how much Anet truly cares about the ideas they themselves claim to follow.

Astralporing.1957:

Crise.9401:

I kind of get where the people of the same mindset as the OP in this topic are coming from. However, having to re-unlock skills with hero points that are given to character based on that specific characters progress related its level and skill challenges completed might be the only real way they can implement migration to this system realistically.

Then they should have designed a different system. One that would not require taking abilities away from people that already had them.

And actually, there are ways to do migration without people losing things. I can think of several offhand, and seen some proposed in this and other threads as well. It’s just a matter of how much Anet truly cares about the ideas they themselves claim to follow.

which ones do you think would work well within the system, and be implemened relatively easily, i ve seen only a few i think could work

I’m afraid that they will lock elite specializations behind 100% core specialization completion (because that seems like something they would do.) You’ll be forced to “specialize” in all kinds of things you have absolutely no interest in to specialize in something you are interested in.

I’m betting you’ll need 465 to unlock all the core stuff before you can even consider getting an elite spec, which could require 100 or more on its own. As someone who mostly plays WvW with multiple characters, I am concerned.

misterdevious.6482:

I’m afraid that they will lock elite specializations behind 100% core specialization completion (because that seems like something they would do.) You’ll be forced to “specialize” in all kinds of things you have absolutely no interest in to specialize in something you are interested in.

I’m betting you’ll need 465 to unlock all the core stuff before you can even consider getting an elite spec, which could require 100 or more on its own. As someone who mostly plays WvW with multiple characters, I am concerned.

probably:

but they may just lock it behind being 80.

You are all forgetting, you don’t need absolutely every single trait and skill unlocked to start doing HoT content, or continue doing WvW, you can only have 3 lines active at a time, and only 5 skills on your hotbar.

Also, EB has 4 Skill/Hero Challenges, the Borderlands have 3 each, so you already have 13 of them done if you are a pure WvW player, the new Borderlands will probably have 3 each as well, bringing you up to 22, so you only need 43 more.

Doing all the Skill/Hero Challenges in the starting zones will net you 36 points, so you will need 6 more, which you can get in for example Gendarren Fields or Brisban Wildlands, all very low level areas, and close to the major cities if you have no Waypoints unlocked.

Alfcam.6497:

You are all forgetting, you don’t need absolutely every single trait and skill unlocked to start doing HoT content, or continue doing WvW, you can only have 3 lines active at a time, and only 5 skills on your hotbar.

Also, EB has 4 Skill/Hero Challenges, the Borderlands have 3 each, so you already have 13 of them done if you are a pure WvW player, the new Borderlands will probably have 3 each as well, bringing you up to 22, so you only need 43 more.

Doing all the Skill/Hero Challenges in the starting zones will net you 36 points, so you will need 6 more, which you can get in for example Gendarren Fields or Brisban Wildlands, all very low level areas, and close to the major cities if you have no Waypoints unlocked.

Waypoints are no concern. You start at queensdale and just march on… Queensdale —> kessex hills --> gendarran fields —> lornar’s pass --> etc.
No need to teleport around. You start at one place and walk until you have 65 skill challenges. That’s probably way faster than teleporting to each capital and doing the low level stuff.

The problem here isn’t that it’s hard, the problem is that you HAVE to do it.

naphack.9346:

Alfcam.6497:

You are all forgetting, you don’t need absolutely every single trait and skill unlocked to start doing HoT content, or continue doing WvW, you can only have 3 lines active at a time, and only 5 skills on your hotbar.

Also, EB has 4 Skill/Hero Challenges, the Borderlands have 3 each, so you already have 13 of them done if you are a pure WvW player, the new Borderlands will probably have 3 each as well, bringing you up to 22, so you only need 43 more.

Doing all the Skill/Hero Challenges in the starting zones will net you 36 points, so you will need 6 more, which you can get in for example Gendarren Fields or Brisban Wildlands, all very low level areas, and close to the major cities if you have no Waypoints unlocked.

Waypoints are no concern. You start at queensdale and just march on… Queensdale —> kessex hills --> gendarran fields —> lornar’s pass --> etc.
No need to teleport around. You start at one place and walk until you have 65 skill challenges. That’s probably way faster than teleporting to each capital and doing the low level stuff.

Yeah, that works too.

Eponet.4829:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Ok, Ok I do see the issue for those that strictly Wvw or pvp mode players. However, I have zero sympathy for WvWers. Just as they once told pvers to “suck it up” for world completion, I guess it’s their turn to suck it up for hero point hunting.

They already had to for world completion. The majority of the world completion was in PvE areas.

Those ones, that have world completion, aren’t going to have an issue. They will have all their points.

Alfcam.6497:

You are all forgetting, you don’t need absolutely every single trait and skill unlocked to start doing HoT content, or continue doing WvW, you can only have 3 lines active at a time, and only 5 skills on your hotbar.

Also, EB has 4 Skill/Hero Challenges, the Borderlands have 3 each, so you already have 13 of them done if you are a pure WvW player, the new Borderlands will probably have 3 each as well, bringing you up to 22, so you only need 43 more.

Doing all the Skill/Hero Challenges in the starting zones will net you 36 points, so you will need 6 more, which you can get in for example Gendarren Fields or Brisban Wildlands, all very low level areas, and close to the major cities if you have no Waypoints unlocked.

You also don’t need more than two weapons, or multiple gear sets. Yet people would probably be annoyed if a second/third/fourth etc. set of exotic gear could only be acquired through grinding PvP reward tracks, and if after first equipping a level 80 exotic weapon, you only unlocked a new weapon type every 10 WvW ranks.

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Eponet.4829:

LanfearShadowflame.3189:

Ok, Ok I do see the issue for those that strictly Wvw or pvp mode players. However, I have zero sympathy for WvWers. Just as they once told pvers to “suck it up” for world completion, I guess it’s their turn to suck it up for hero point hunting.

They already had to for world completion. The majority of the world completion was in PvE areas.

Those ones, that have world completion, aren’t going to have an issue. They will have all their points.

Or they’ll have 1 or 2 with world completion. Because most don’t want 10+ legendaries

Hey, just give me 1 ‘hero point’ for every X number of WvW player kills a toon has, and all 14 of my lv. 80 toons will have everything unlocked. If they added that count to the ‘skill challenges’ count almost all veteran players would be happy, whether they lean toward WvW, PvE or some combination of the two.

Eponet.4829:

There’s a huge difference. The main one being:
1) World completion does absolutely nothing for you mechanically, the only thing it’s used for is legendary weapons, which aren’t particularly special other than for their skins. Stat changing is kind of nice, but without Sigil changing, it can’t be used particularly well. It’s still cheaper to just get an ascended copy for every type that you use. If I’m correct, almost everyone should be fine with grinding for skins.

Secondary, but much less relevant point: They already had to go into the PvE world for map completion, and for far more than the WvW side of it included. It would only be an apt comparison in that regard if more than half the hero points could only be acquired in WvWvW, and you needed to play both of them to unlock your traits/skills.

Tertiary point: You’re generalising PvE as a single entity. But within that sphere there are also other playstyles which don’t include map completion in their purview who suffer from it. It was possible to earn your traits from playing dungeons/fractals under the second system.

This doesn’t just hurt WvWvW players, but every single play style other than; Map Completion, 100% sPvP (Or some combination of the 3), and 100% City Roleplayers.

Humm… Actually, World completion gives a ton of exp, a ton of craft mats, stuff like BLC Keys, Exotics, etc. Mechanically its a very rewarding activity. Exploring the World is fun… If people prefer to run around in packs from point to point, ok WvW for them, but i don’t see much the point of people complaining because they got through the game without playing the vast majority of it.
NOT TO MENTION that for over a year you didn’t have Scrolls of Knowledge to use, and no one complained then.

I also am uncomfortable with the thought that stuff people already unlocked will have to be unlocked again, but then again masteries seem completely based on unlocking the same thing twice, so why are you even complaining.

Hey here’s a thought. They could actually add a repeatable mastery track specifically for WvW (like there’s masteries specific to the new map, and others for the original map, so make another for the mists) that adds 1 Hero Point on completion (which replaces gaining 1 SP every level even after you hit 80).

ReaverKane.7598:

Eponet.4829:

There’s a huge difference. The main one being:
1) World completion does absolutely nothing for you mechanically, the only thing it’s used for is legendary weapons, which aren’t particularly special other than for their skins. Stat changing is kind of nice, but without Sigil changing, it can’t be used particularly well. It’s still cheaper to just get an ascended copy for every type that you use. If I’m correct, almost everyone should be fine with grinding for skins.

Secondary, but much less relevant point: They already had to go into the PvE world for map completion, and for far more than the WvW side of it included. It would only be an apt comparison in that regard if more than half the hero points could only be acquired in WvWvW, and you needed to play both of them to unlock your traits/skills.

Tertiary point: You’re generalising PvE as a single entity. But within that sphere there are also other playstyles which don’t include map completion in their purview who suffer from it. It was possible to earn your traits from playing dungeons/fractals under the second system.

This doesn’t just hurt WvWvW players, but every single play style other than; Map Completion, 100% sPvP (Or some combination of the 3), and 100% City Roleplayers.

Humm… Actually, World completion gives a ton of exp, a ton of craft mats, stuff like BLC Keys, Exotics, etc. Mechanically its a very rewarding activity. Exploring the World is fun… If people prefer to run around in packs from point to point, ok WvW for them, but i don’t see much the point of people complaining because they got through the game without playing the vast majority of it.
NOT TO MENTION that for over a year you didn’t have Scrolls of Knowledge to use, and no one complained then.

I also am uncomfortable with the thought that stuff people already unlocked will have to be unlocked again, but then again masteries seem completely based on unlocking the same thing twice, so why are you even complaining.

Hey here’s a thought. They could actually add a repeatable mastery track specifically for WvW (like there’s masteries specific to the new map, and others for the original map, so make another for the mists) that adds 1 Hero Point on completion (which replaces gaining 1 SP every level even after you hit 80).

people keep saying things like this, but keep in mind they wanted limited amounts of hero points, and it to be primarily limited by the number of skill challenges and your level.

ReaverKane.7598:

Actually, World completion gives a ton of exp, a ton of craft mats, stuff like BLC Keys, Exotics, etc. Mechanically its a very rewarding activity. Exploring the World is fun… If people prefer to run around in packs from point to point, ok WvW for them, but i don’t see much the point of people complaining because they got through the game without playing the vast majority of it.

The ‘majority of the game’ is actually the thousands of opposing players to be killed in WvW (and PvP), not the repetitive, skill-less soul-sucking borefest that is PvE. PvE already gives more material rewards without also now tying character progression exclusively to it. I run in small havoc groups groups and solo in WvW more often than zerging, while PvE is generally Champ-train-zerging for mindless gold/mat/gear farming. If that’s your thing, fine, but don’t try telling the WvW community that your way is better. =/

Daddar.5971:

ReaverKane.7598:

Actually, World completion gives a ton of exp, a ton of craft mats, stuff like BLC Keys, Exotics, etc. Mechanically its a very rewarding activity. Exploring the World is fun… If people prefer to run around in packs from point to point, ok WvW for them, but i don’t see much the point of people complaining because they got through the game without playing the vast majority of it.

The ‘majority of the game’ is actually the thousands of opposing players to be killed in WvW (and PvP), not the repetitive, skill-less soul-sucking borefest that is PvE. PvE already gives more material rewards without also now tying character progression exclusively to it. I run in small havoc groups groups and solo in WvW more often than zerging, while PvE is generally Champ-train-zerging for mindless gold/mat/gear farming. If that’s your thing, fine, but don’t try telling the WvW community that your way is better. =/

Your statement goes both ways for both components. WvW sees just as much zerg play and karma farming flip fests as PvE does. (Been there, joined that) Conversely as you point out, you enjoy small group play, well guess what, there are a lot of PvErs that do too, and opt to play that way. So no, it’s not all mindless zerg farming.

So why the superior attitude from the PVE crowd, and why base all progression on PvE skill(less) challenges?

Very valid points. I bought my traits with gold because I don’t like PvE. I play 99% of my time in wvw and pvp so please don’t tell me to go into pve-land. I like the instant buy option because it encourages experimention. It lets me play the game instead of doing trivial thing to be able to play the game.

Daddar.5971:

So why the superior attitude from the PVE crowd, and why base all progression on PvE skill(less) challenges?

Again goes both ways. Why always the condescension from WvWers?

I typically don’t tend to get snippy with WvWers unless they start getting kitteny with me because I’m a PvEr (primarily, but I do dabble).

However, completely beyond that I do see the issue for WvWers and even for PvPers that cross over into PvE. The issue with WvW is that Anet considers it to be a part of PvE, thus forcing WvW players out into PvE for a grand assortment of things, the latest being hero point acquisition from hero challenges. I don’t really see a way around it though, unless they put a lot more HP challenges into the WvW maps….or make the ones there repeatable in some fashion (but they have to be careful with that as it could be exploited).

“Play the way you want,” as long as it’s pvE zerker build.

Daddar.5971:

“Play the way you want,” as long as it’s pvE zerker build.

skill challenges have nothing to do with zerker build in the slightest.

True, but neither do they have anything to do with skill.

ReaverKane.7598:

Humm… Actually, World completion gives a ton of exp, a ton of craft mats, stuff like BLC Keys, Exotics, etc. Mechanically its a very rewarding activity. Exploring the World is fun… If people prefer to run around in packs from point to point, ok WvW for them, but i don’t see much the point of people complaining because they got through the game without playing the vast majority of it.
NOT TO MENTION that for over a year you didn’t have Scrolls of Knowledge to use, and no one complained then.

World completion doesn’t give you those things. Map completion gives you those things. If you look at the context, it was a reply to a post saying that because some people wanted world completion to require WvW maps as well, thus stopping only PvE players from getting it, everyone should have to play the map completion style for traits. The only thing that world completion gives that completing every map other than the WvW maps gives is the map completion bonuses for the WvW maps, and the gifts of exploration, which are useless outside of crafting legendary weapons, which are hardly any more effective than ascended weapons, and thus generally just seen as skins. Whereas traits are an integral part of the game’s mechanics for everything except low level play and SPvP.

No one complained about those things despite a lack of scrolls of knowledge early on because you didn’t need as many skill points and you still got skill points for levelling past 80. All traits at the time were unlocked with a very small amount of gold, which you also got from playing pretty much every playstyle you wanted other than SPvP, who got their own exclusive progression, and would earn gold it if they did anything other than PvP. So, they either didn’t need it, or got it anyway, as opposed to simply the PvP/Map Completion combinations.

phys.7689:

ReaverKane.7598:

Eponet.4829:

There’s a huge difference. The main one being:
1) World completion does absolutely nothing for you mechanically, the only thing it’s used for is legendary weapons, which aren’t particularly special other than for their skins. Stat changing is kind of nice, but without Sigil changing, it can’t be used particularly well. It’s still cheaper to just get an ascended copy for every type that you use. If I’m correct, almost everyone should be fine with grinding for skins.

Secondary, but much less relevant point: They already had to go into the PvE world for map completion, and for far more than the WvW side of it included. It would only be an apt comparison in that regard if more than half the hero points could only be acquired in WvWvW, and you needed to play both of them to unlock your traits/skills.

Tertiary point: You’re generalising PvE as a single entity. But within that sphere there are also other playstyles which don’t include map completion in their purview who suffer from it. It was possible to earn your traits from playing dungeons/fractals under the second system.

This doesn’t just hurt WvWvW players, but every single play style other than; Map Completion, 100% sPvP (Or some combination of the 3), and 100% City Roleplayers.

Humm… Actually, World completion gives a ton of exp, a ton of craft mats, stuff like BLC Keys, Exotics, etc. Mechanically its a very rewarding activity. Exploring the World is fun… If people prefer to run around in packs from point to point, ok WvW for them, but i don’t see much the point of people complaining because they got through the game without playing the vast majority of it.
NOT TO MENTION that for over a year you didn’t have Scrolls of Knowledge to use, and no one complained then.

I also am uncomfortable with the thought that stuff people already unlocked will have to be unlocked again, but then again masteries seem completely based on unlocking the same thing twice, so why are you even complaining.

Hey here’s a thought. They could actually add a repeatable mastery track specifically for WvW (like there’s masteries specific to the new map, and others for the original map, so make another for the mists) that adds 1 Hero Point on completion (which replaces gaining 1 SP every level even after you hit 80).

people keep saying things like this, but keep in mind they wanted limited amounts of hero points, and it to be primarily limited by the number of skill challenges and your level.

Then make a cap, and make it so that if you hit it by any means, the hero challenges would stop giving you anything beyond map completion ticks.

Astralporing.1957:

phys.7689:

ReaverKane.7598:

Eponet.4829:

There’s a huge difference. The main one being:
1) World completion does absolutely nothing for you mechanically, the only thing it’s used for is legendary weapons, which aren’t particularly special other than for their skins. Stat changing is kind of nice, but without Sigil changing, it can’t be used particularly well. It’s still cheaper to just get an ascended copy for every type that you use. If I’m correct, almost everyone should be fine with grinding for skins.

Secondary, but much less relevant point: They already had to go into the PvE world for map completion, and for far more than the WvW side of it included. It would only be an apt comparison in that regard if more than half the hero points could only be acquired in WvWvW, and you needed to play both of them to unlock your traits/skills.

Tertiary point: You’re generalising PvE as a single entity. But within that sphere there are also other playstyles which don’t include map completion in their purview who suffer from it. It was possible to earn your traits from playing dungeons/fractals under the second system.

This doesn’t just hurt WvWvW players, but every single play style other than; Map Completion, 100% sPvP (Or some combination of the 3), and 100% City Roleplayers.

Humm… Actually, World completion gives a ton of exp, a ton of craft mats, stuff like BLC Keys, Exotics, etc. Mechanically its a very rewarding activity. Exploring the World is fun… If people prefer to run around in packs from point to point, ok WvW for them, but i don’t see much the point of people complaining because they got through the game without playing the vast majority of it.
NOT TO MENTION that for over a year you didn’t have Scrolls of Knowledge to use, and no one complained then.

I also am uncomfortable with the thought that stuff people already unlocked will have to be unlocked again, but then again masteries seem completely based on unlocking the same thing twice, so why are you even complaining.

Hey here’s a thought. They could actually add a repeatable mastery track specifically for WvW (like there’s masteries specific to the new map, and others for the original map, so make another for the mists) that adds 1 Hero Point on completion (which replaces gaining 1 SP every level even after you hit 80).

people keep saying things like this, but keep in mind they wanted limited amounts of hero points, and it to be primarily limited by the number of skill challenges and your level.

Then make a cap, and make it so that if you hit it by any means, the hero challenges would stop giving you anything beyond map completion ticks.

That’s a rather elegant solution.

Eurhetemec.9052:

Astralporing.1957:

phys.7689:

ReaverKane.7598:

Eponet.4829:

There’s a huge difference. The main one being:
1) World completion does absolutely nothing for you mechanically, the only thing it’s used for is legendary weapons, which aren’t particularly special other than for their skins. Stat changing is kind of nice, but without Sigil changing, it can’t be used particularly well. It’s still cheaper to just get an ascended copy for every type that you use. If I’m correct, almost everyone should be fine with grinding for skins.

Secondary, but much less relevant point: They already had to go into the PvE world for map completion, and for far more than the WvW side of it included. It would only be an apt comparison in that regard if more than half the hero points could only be acquired in WvWvW, and you needed to play both of them to unlock your traits/skills.

Tertiary point: You’re generalising PvE as a single entity. But within that sphere there are also other playstyles which don’t include map completion in their purview who suffer from it. It was possible to earn your traits from playing dungeons/fractals under the second system.

This doesn’t just hurt WvWvW players, but every single play style other than; Map Completion, 100% sPvP (Or some combination of the 3), and 100% City Roleplayers.

Humm… Actually, World completion gives a ton of exp, a ton of craft mats, stuff like BLC Keys, Exotics, etc. Mechanically its a very rewarding activity. Exploring the World is fun… If people prefer to run around in packs from point to point, ok WvW for them, but i don’t see much the point of people complaining because they got through the game without playing the vast majority of it.
NOT TO MENTION that for over a year you didn’t have Scrolls of Knowledge to use, and no one complained then.

I also am uncomfortable with the thought that stuff people already unlocked will have to be unlocked again, but then again masteries seem completely based on unlocking the same thing twice, so why are you even complaining.

Hey here’s a thought. They could actually add a repeatable mastery track specifically for WvW (like there’s masteries specific to the new map, and others for the original map, so make another for the mists) that adds 1 Hero Point on completion (which replaces gaining 1 SP every level even after you hit 80).

people keep saying things like this, but keep in mind they wanted limited amounts of hero points, and it to be primarily limited by the number of skill challenges and your level.

Then make a cap, and make it so that if you hit it by any means, the hero challenges would stop giving you anything beyond map completion ticks.

That’s a rather elegant solution.

It’s something I was thinking of earlier. If PvP rank and WvW level were counted in some limited fashion as hero point rewards, it would be a decent way to reward competitive players a way to sync better with PvE. Maybe a 1:3 ratio? I’m not sure how high WvW levels go, but one of my guildies said she had over a thousand so.. That’s definitely going to need a cap.

If there’s concern that too many hero points would go out, just make the cap for all competitive points (PvP and WvW total) 65, no matter what ratio is used. That way, those who invested in tomes/gold/scrolls don’t lose so much of their progress for playing outside of PvE.

Rauderi.8706:

It’s something I was thinking of earlier. If PvP rank and WvW level were counted in some limited fashion as hero point rewards, it would be a decent way to reward competitive players a way to sync better with PvE. Maybe a 1:3 ratio? I’m not sure how high WvW levels go, but one of my guildies said she had over a thousand so.. That’s definitely going to need a cap.

If there’s concern that too many hero points would go out, just make the cap for all competitive points (PvP and WvW total) 65, no matter what ratio is used. That way, those who invested in tomes/gold/scrolls don’t lose so much of their progress for playing outside of PvE.

PvP gets everything unlocked for free as soon as this launches.

This issue is limited to the WvW populace.

Astralporing.1957:

phys.7689:

ReaverKane.7598:

Eponet.4829:

There’s a huge difference. The main one being:
1) World completion does absolutely nothing for you mechanically, the only thing it’s used for is legendary weapons, which aren’t particularly special other than for their skins. Stat changing is kind of nice, but without Sigil changing, it can’t be used particularly well. It’s still cheaper to just get an ascended copy for every type that you use. If I’m correct, almost everyone should be fine with grinding for skins.

Secondary, but much less relevant point: They already had to go into the PvE world for map completion, and for far more than the WvW side of it included. It would only be an apt comparison in that regard if more than half the hero points could only be acquired in WvWvW, and you needed to play both of them to unlock your traits/skills.

Tertiary point: You’re generalising PvE as a single entity. But within that sphere there are also other playstyles which don’t include map completion in their purview who suffer from it. It was possible to earn your traits from playing dungeons/fractals under the second system.

This doesn’t just hurt WvWvW players, but every single play style other than; Map Completion, 100% sPvP (Or some combination of the 3), and 100% City Roleplayers.

Humm… Actually, World completion gives a ton of exp, a ton of craft mats, stuff like BLC Keys, Exotics, etc. Mechanically its a very rewarding activity. Exploring the World is fun… If people prefer to run around in packs from point to point, ok WvW for them, but i don’t see much the point of people complaining because they got through the game without playing the vast majority of it.
NOT TO MENTION that for over a year you didn’t have Scrolls of Knowledge to use, and no one complained then.

I also am uncomfortable with the thought that stuff people already unlocked will have to be unlocked again, but then again masteries seem completely based on unlocking the same thing twice, so why are you even complaining.

Hey here’s a thought. They could actually add a repeatable mastery track specifically for WvW (like there’s masteries specific to the new map, and others for the original map, so make another for the mists) that adds 1 Hero Point on completion (which replaces gaining 1 SP every level even after you hit 80).

people keep saying things like this, but keep in mind they wanted limited amounts of hero points, and it to be primarily limited by the number of skill challenges and your level.

Then make a cap, and make it so that if you hit it by any means, the hero challenges would stop giving you anything beyond map completion ticks.

The problem with a cap, is it goes up to full.
say the cap is 540, people get 540, buy all skills, now when the new spec comes out, they have 540 points saved up.
they want people to have to play some new content, so they have extra skill points in the new zone, so now they have to make the new stuff cost 600 points.

Now they could have a really low cap, like 20, but then people would be annoyed when they have to leave to go over cap.
Skill point challenges would need to not work if you are over cap.
and what about when players level and they are over cap?

creating a flat cap doesnt make the system work they way they want it to work.

Rauderi.8706:

It’s something I was thinking of earlier. If PvP rank and WvW level were counted in some limited fashion as hero point rewards, it would be a decent way to reward competitive players a way to sync better with PvE. Maybe a 1:3 ratio? I’m not sure how high WvW levels go, but one of my guildies said she had over a thousand so.. That’s definitely going to need a cap.

If there’s concern that too many hero points would go out, just make the cap for all competitive points (PvP and WvW total) 65, no matter what ratio is used. That way, those who invested in tomes/gold/scrolls don’t lose so much of their progress for playing outside of PvE.

being able to get 65 points from a different source would effectively increase the maximum cap higher, not only that, but people who chose to get all their exp from competitive modes would have 65 more that the other people could never get.

if the cap goes higher, the effectiveness of skill points goes down, assuming they want you not to be able to get all the skill points you need for the next spec instantly.

say they make wvw skill points give you 5x vs pve 1x
now the total skill points available is 700 instead of 650ish
so instead of 6 lines using 100 points, they have to make six lines use 115 for example. which means more work later, for less skills per work.
also you end up making people go to WvW just for skill points which both WvW players and PvE players often complain about.

IMO the best solution is to create teleport consumables that give you access to teirs of skill points, that you can get in WvW
teir i hero point Warp scroll: warps you to 65 low level skill points
teir ii hero point scroll: warps you to 100 mid- high level skill points

it should be unlocked challenges, but if that is too much coding work, have it lock you in place and prompt if you want to warp again, scroll is consumed upon accepting the prompt, and you can interact/move.

let it only pick from skill points in the current zone.

They could make getting teir II books require you to be a higher rank, or level, or do different things in WvW if they want.
they should also be soul bound
let each book sell for a few silver, and have note to sell it if you have unlocked all of those skill challenges on that charachter.

Spvp does not need to give these scrolls, spvp players get everything they need, and money and gold/items. people who level from spvp dont need to be immune from playing pve or WvW in order to progress their charachters.

the keys here is you need a system
that has a limited amount of hero points
is charachter bound
doesnt give an advantage to stack skill points/items giving skill points.
doesnt create a big surplus of skill points that messes up the work/reward ratio later.

Why are MMO communities always calling for the end of the world? Seriously, would it hurt to have even a shred of faith that A-Net cares about the player experience? Remember when they swapped Trait systems last time? How all your characters kept the traits they had access to unlocked? And DIDN’T have to unlock all of them again? This is the EXACT same situation.

Kheo.2504:

Why are MMO communities always calling for the end of the world? Seriously, would it hurt to have even a shred of faith that A-Net cares about the player experience? Remember when they swapped Trait systems last time? How all your characters kept the traits they had access to unlocked? And DIDN’T have to unlock all of them again? This is the EXACT same situation.

except that time they were very clear that they would be grandfathering charachters. This time what they described as the system they are putting in place, would leave some types of players with a bit of work to catch up to their old selves.

I don’t think they can give us the unlocks, however, as the new system is too different. The old transition was from generally the same traits, unlocked by leveling and spending skill points, to a different unlock system involving either world events or spending skill points and gold.

The new hero points system is a rework from the ground up with no direct translation. While they may well find a way to help out those who avoided map completion in the past (not that just getting skill challenges is anything like full map completion), it will be very tricky to do so. Because they are converting from infinitely available points to a fixed pool, they would have to find a way to prevent people from exceeding the pool cap by later going to do those challenges.

That’s not impossible. I saw one poster suggest that once you are capped, future challenges only toggle to map completion without adding hero points. I don’t know how seamlessly and bug-free they can set that up. There’s also the concern that future maps will add more hero challenges to allow future spec lines to be bought. What happens then if someone has yet to do the starter zone skill points and they elect to do those instead of the new zone ones? Does ANet have to perpetually dynamically manage each account’s hero point credit status?

IMO the best solution is to create teleport consumables that you can get in WvW that give you access to skill points.
snip
let it only pick from skill points in the current zone.

Also a solution I support. “Closest incomplete hero challenge in the current zone” should be the logic for it. Keeping it zone-limited means a player won’t accidentally be shuffled off to places too high for him. And I’m okay with them being account bound to help with alts while the main farms WvW.

PvP gets everything unlocked for free as soon as this launches.
This issue is limited to the WvW populace.

There are some people who don’t like WvW and will prefer to level via PvP and tomes. Those players may want to transition their PvP-80s into PvE, so a similar option should be made available to them. (Assuming we wish to reward all play modes respectfully.)

Which makes me like phys’ teleport scroll more. It can be a competitive-play reward that extends into a PvE shortcut.

phys.7689:

being able to get 65 points from a different source would effectively increase the maximum cap higher, not only that, but people who chose to get all their exp from competitive modes would have 65 more that the other people could never get.

No, you literally do not understand what is being suggest. LITERALLY.

Re-read it again, because I’m not sure it could be clearer.

phys.7689:

IMO the best solution is to create teleport consumables that give you access to teirs of skill points, that you can get in WvW
teir i hero point Warp scroll: warps you to 65 low level skill points
teir ii hero point scroll: warps you to 100 mid- high level skill points.

This is a wild fantasy, because they’d need to program in a whole new consumable, and then lay out all the points it could teleport to (carefully collision checking them etc). It would be huge effort and is not a reasonable suggestion.

Rauderi.8706:

IMO the best solution is to create teleport consumables that you can get in WvW that give you access to skill points.
snip
let it only pick from skill points in the current zone.

Also a solution I support. “Closest incomplete hero challenge in the current zone” should be the logic for it. Keeping it zone-limited means a player won’t accidentally be shuffled off to places too high for him. And I’m okay with them being account bound to help with alts while the main farms WvW.

PvP gets everything unlocked for free as soon as this launches.
This issue is limited to the WvW populace.

There are some people who don’t like WvW and will prefer to level via PvP and tomes. Those players may want to transition their PvP-80s into PvE, so a similar option should be made available to them. (Assuming we wish to reward all play modes respectfully.)

Which makes me like phys’ teleport scroll more. It can be a competitive-play reward that extends into a PvE shortcut.

well its up to them to decide whether you should be able to fully level a charachter from SPVP, i personally think that every one who wants to dip in to the PVE/wvw mode should have to do some sort of progress based gameplay in that mode, since that is the focus of that mode. Basically pve/wvw is adventure mode, and i dont think its unreasonable to have to have some adventures in order to reach max unlocks.

but it wouldnt be the end of the world if they did put them in spvp.

should definately be soulbound though.

Eurhetemec.9052:

phys.7689:

being able to get 65 points from a different source would effectively increase the maximum cap higher, not only that, but people who chose to get all their exp from competitive modes would have 65 more that the other people could never get.

No, you literally do not understand what is being suggest. LITERALLY.

Re-read it again, because I’m not sure it could be clearer.

phys.7689:

IMO the best solution is to create teleport consumables that give you access to teirs of skill points, that you can get in WvW
teir i hero point Warp scroll: warps you to 65 low level skill points
teir ii hero point scroll: warps you to 100 mid- high level skill points.

This is a wild fantasy, because they’d need to program in a whole new consumable, and then lay out all the points it could teleport to (carefully collision checking them etc). It would be huge effort and is not a reasonable suggestion.

they actually already had an item like this

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Twisted_Watchwork_Portal_Device

so the code is there, all they would have to do is add skill point locations, which they also already probably have
look coordinates of skill point interaction.

since they already did this work for more types points, i would assume its not that difficult to do.

phys.7689:

Eurhetemec.9052:

phys.7689:

being able to get 65 points from a different source would effectively increase the maximum cap higher, not only that, but people who chose to get all their exp from competitive modes would have 65 more that the other people could never get.

No, you literally do not understand what is being suggest. LITERALLY.

Re-read it again, because I’m not sure it could be clearer.

phys.7689:

IMO the best solution is to create teleport consumables that give you access to teirs of skill points, that you can get in WvW
teir i hero point Warp scroll: warps you to 65 low level skill points
teir ii hero point scroll: warps you to 100 mid- high level skill points.

This is a wild fantasy, because they’d need to program in a whole new consumable, and then lay out all the points it could teleport to (carefully collision checking them etc). It would be huge effort and is not a reasonable suggestion.

they actually already had an item like this

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Twisted_Watchwork_Portal_Device

so the code is there, all they would have to do is add skill point locations, which they also already probably have
look coordinates of skill point interaction.

since they already did this work for more types points, i would assume its not that difficult to do.

Fair enough, I didn’t know about that device, but it’d be simpler still just to let people get to 65 any old way, but make ones past that have to be Skill Challenges up to 198 (or however many it is) and cap them there.

I don’t think they would mess up players that badly. I have everything unlocked on my Engineer and if I don’t see him in such state in HOT then I might punch someone or something.

Once unlocked always unlocked. Already invested TIME and RESOURCES once. Don’t see why would they want us to invest it second time for same thing.

Eurhetemec.9052:

phys.7689:

being able to get 65 points from a different source would effectively increase the maximum cap higher, not only that, but people who chose to get all their exp from competitive modes would have 65 more that the other people could never get.

No, you literally do not understand what is being suggest. LITERALLY.

Re-read it again, because I’m not sure it could be clearer.

.

you would end up with more points total if you
level only in spvp/wvw first, you get up to 65 extra points which puts you at
465 points.
then you go out and do 220 skill challenges and you now have 685 skill points, while the guy who did all skill challenges first has already capped those 65 points from a different source.

if it doesnt work that way, and simply gives 65 points you can get from a different source, then you would be increasing the total amount of points available, and the costs of everything would have to go up to compensate for a higher cap.
in the future all new specs would likely follow that same number.

now if my analysis is wrong, you can either explain why, or dont explain why, but regardless it isnt clear to me how these would not be problems with the system suggested.

A note on the “65” number: In the live stream revealing all this, they did comment that exact figures are still in flux. I’m using 65 as the baseline to get all my alts to, but I’m going to revisit my main fighters and shovel more skill challenges on them. First another 35 to 40 to cover the likely cost of the elite spec, and then any more I can stomach grinding out.

If 65 turns out to be a few shy of a full unlock for the core specs, fine, I can then do a bit of catchup whenever I feel like actually using the alt.

I just want to do my tiny, likely mostly unread bit to help forestall the outrage if people come to take “65” as written in stone.

Donari.5237:

A note on the “65” number: In the live stream revealing all this, they did comment that exact figures are still in flux. I’m using 65 as the baseline to get all my alts to, but I’m going to revisit my main fighters and shovel more skill challenges on them. First another 35 to 40 to cover the likely cost of the elite spec, and then any more I can stomach grinding out.

If 65 turns out to be a few shy of a full unlock for the core specs, fine, I can then do a bit of catchup whenever I feel like actually using the alt.

I just want to do my tiny, likely mostly unread bit to help forestall the outrage if people come to take “65” as written in stone.

yea, 65 is just what we are using instead of saying “estimated 65 at time of the reveal” but the suggestion is, at the time they were thinking in that family of numbers, unless the system changes.