Guild Wars 2

Personally. If I’d complain about the difficulty in any way, it would be in regards to getting Mastery points. I do not find it fun to repeat story quests for all those achievements. I don’t even want to read a kitten Dulfy guide on full achievements for LS2, I would quite frankly rather not play.

It seems a bit of a joke that all the legendaries are being made with a requirement of max masteries.

They only part I considered grind is the double portion. You need xp and mastery points to unlock. I would have picked one out of the two and that would been enough.

Animism.9803:

Personally. If I’d complain about the difficulty in any way, it would be in regards to getting Mastery points. I do not find it fun to repeat story quests for all those achievements. I don’t even want to read a kitten Dulfy guide on full achievements for LS2, I would quite frankly rather not play.

It seems a bit of a joke that all the legendaries are being made with a requirement of max masteries.

But…they are legendary quality items. Being expected to go above-and-beyond the norm is the norm for legendary.

Razor.9872:

Animism.9803:

Personally. If I’d complain about the difficulty in any way, it would be in regards to getting Mastery points. I do not find it fun to repeat story quests for all those achievements. I don’t even want to read a kitten Dulfy guide on full achievements for LS2, I would quite frankly rather not play.

It seems a bit of a joke that all the legendaries are being made with a requirement of max masteries.

But…they are legendary quality items. Being expected to go above-and-beyond the norm is the norm for legendary.

Never mind the fact that you would likely get the masteries for Legendary Crafting long before you managed to get all the resources needed to make them. When I logged on after HoT launched, I already had enough MPs to get both the Legendary Crafting and another line filled just by having played a bunch. Unless you run fractals a lot, that line doesn’t need to be filled.

Grind or no grind, the masteries have been implemented awfully. Why would I care or try to grind them after I completed all the meta events on the four maps? What’s the point in trying to get extra accessibility/qol improvements on a map I’m bored of playing? Tie this up with the immersion breaking/mobile phone wannabe games called adventures and you’ll make plenty of people upset.

Sardath.8524:

Grind or no grind, the masteries have been implemented awfully. Why would I care or try to grind them after I completed all the meta events on the four maps? What’s the point in trying to get extra accessibility/qol improvements on a map I’m bored of playing? Tie this up with the immersion breaking/mobile phone wannabe games called adventures and you’ll make plenty of people upset.

I don’t get it. There is no point in trying to get extra accessibility/qol improvements on a map that you are bored of playing. So why would you grind for them? They are just there for those who wish to have them and are willing to continue experiencing the jungle/raids to do so. What is the problem?

Razor.9872:

Sardath.8524:

Grind or no grind, the masteries have been implemented awfully. Why would I care or try to grind them after I completed all the meta events on the four maps? What’s the point in trying to get extra accessibility/qol improvements on a map I’m bored of playing? Tie this up with the immersion breaking/mobile phone wannabe games called adventures and you’ll make plenty of people upset.

I don’t get it. There is no point in trying to get extra accessibility/qol improvements on a map that you are bored of playing. So why would you grind for them? They are just there for those who wish to have them and are willing to continue experiencing the jungle/raids to do so. What is the problem?

I’m not. I’ve stopped playing all the HoT maps after I’ve experienced the meta events. That’s the problem. They are gates to parts of content you already experienced. They should incentivise you to play, but they don’t.

Zoltar MacRoth.7146:

I don’t think the masteries are grindy – BUT I think your idea would make them so. I used my mesmer to do most of my masteries because he provided me with good mobility, stealth and a portal that provided insurance where I needed it.

If I had to complete the masteries your way (as I understand it) it would have been tedious, unenjoyable and very, very, very grindy.

Totally agreed with you !!!
I could play and earn all masteries with my main and favorite character , way easier to do specialization achievements later with my alts.
I don’t feel it was grind , rather the goal , reason I logged to GW2 every day and had fun.
I believe only people that want everything “NOW” , feels masteries as a grind
They are often in LA after unlocked all masteries saying in chat: " I am bored "

XP boosters, food and utilities, watch the XP roll in. Do the meta, do map completion, the xp will roll in. Things are only as “grindy” as you make it.

Sardath.8524:

Razor.9872:

Sardath.8524:

Grind or no grind, the masteries have been implemented awfully. Why would I care or try to grind them after I completed all the meta events on the four maps? What’s the point in trying to get extra accessibility/qol improvements on a map I’m bored of playing? Tie this up with the immersion breaking/mobile phone wannabe games called adventures and you’ll make plenty of people upset.

I don’t get it. There is no point in trying to get extra accessibility/qol improvements on a map that you are bored of playing. So why would you grind for them? They are just there for those who wish to have them and are willing to continue experiencing the jungle/raids to do so. What is the problem?

I’m not. I’ve stopped playing all the HoT maps after I’ve experienced the meta events. That’s the problem. They are gates to parts of content you already experienced. They should incentivise you to play, but they don’t.

you say ‘gate’ when actually its simply a goal. The incentive for achieving these goals is the very content you are bored of, so whats the problem?

Sardath.8524:

Grind or no grind, the masteries have been implemented awfully. Why would I care or try to grind them after I completed all the meta events on the four maps? What’s the point in trying to get extra accessibility/qol improvements on a map I’m bored of playing? Tie this up with the immersion breaking/mobile phone wannabe games called adventures and you’ll make plenty of people upset.

MMOs are based upon repetition. GW2 is not and has never been an exception. If you can only play through events once before becoming bored of them, you are playing the wrong type of game.

If your issue is that you don’t like the HoT maps in general, then the mastery system is only an issue because it forces you to spend time in the HoT maps. But as you say, you don’t like them anyway.

I happen to like the maps, but I also dislike the mastery system in some ways. I definitely agree on adventures. I just don’t like them and have no interest in playing them. I don’t think the requirement is necessarily unreasonable as implemented, however. But I also wouldn’t mind if they added a workaround. So I’m with you there.

Where I diverge is that I appreciate how they incorporated the mastery system into the exploration of HoT. Where you simply wish to complete the events and move on, I wanted to explore until I knew the jungle through and through (I haven’t gotten there yet! But I’m making steady progress!). While I gained experience running events, I was also working toward this other goal.

Obviously, we aren’t going to see eye to eye on that. But love them or hate them, the HoT maps offer something that you can’t find in core Tyria or in any other game I’ve experienced. And I think the mastery system fits in nicely.

Having said all that, I don’t see why they need to be stingy with the mastery points. Progression is still gated behind a substantial amount of experience, and additional mastery points could still be gated behind other masteries to slow the progression a bit. Ultimately, the system could serve its role within the context of the HoT design while simultaneously making it easier for players to pick and choose which challenges they wish to pursue to earn the mastery points they need.

If I could get the mastery points I want without storyline achievements and adventures, I wouldn’t complain.

Moyayuki.3619:

runeblade.7514:

I disagree because:

• They’re not grindy.
• I do not want character-based mastery grind ever. This will be much more of a nuisance.

I suppose you missed the part where the OP said that if you don’t believe them to be grindy, then don’t post.

But in all seriousness…I guess it’s subjective. But everyone’s opinion is valid. Why not expand upon your reasons for finding or not finding an aspect of the game grindy instead of making simple statements? That will surely forward the discussion.

We should make a poll to see if they are grindy because it can be debatable

General Health.9678:

Dante.1508:

Lower Hot damage, add loot right through the mobs, not just giant zerg stupidity.. let customers solo all the content bar super bosses…

That would fix the hot issues..

This was done in April.

Not enough, the enemies damages are still insane, and many parts (masteries etc) are still not solo able.

Dante.1508:

Dante.1508:

Zoltar MacRoth.7146:

Dante.1508:

Lower Hot damage, add loot right through the mobs, not just giant zerg stupidity.. let customers solo all the content bar super bosses…

That would fix the hot issues..

The person I was when HOT first came out wouldn’t believe I’d be saying this, but I don’t want HOT changed. It’s great as it is. I’m hardly a great player – I can’t even see tells after a year of this game – but after a couple of months in the jungle I’m running around solo on a mes, finishing achievements, masteries completed, having fun. It’s possible. And strangest of all, I’m kind of wishing it was harder.

I’m just commenting on what would fix hot for casual customers.

I’m sorry but no one elected you spokesperson for casual customers. You’re one guy. There are a few people who agree with you.

But from my observations, even just on this forum, there are as many or more self-identified casual players who disagree with you. It’s human nature to believe if you feel something strongly others must feel the same way, but that’s not really the way the world works.

I have plenty of casual people playing in my guild who are fine with HoT. All you can really comment on is what will fix it for you. You can’t talk for other casual players because they don’t all agree with you…even just in this thread.

You might not be play well enough to solo hot, but please stop trying to push the point that casual = unskilled, because I’ve never read any definition of casual that means that.

YOU would like to see HoT made easier. Some casuals undoubtedly would too. But other casuals are okay with the difficulty of HoT.

Fixed my post, you are right, but in my opinion, anyone who enjoys HoT and can solo it are not really casual players to me..

The whole hot mechanics are designed to be not casual friendly.

AliamRationem.5172:

MMOs are based upon repetition. GW2 is not and has never been an exception. If you can only play through events once before becoming bored of them, you are playing the wrong type of game.

If your issue is that you don’t like the HoT maps in general, then the mastery system is only an issue because it forces you to spend time in the HoT maps. But as you say, you don’t like them anyway.

I happen to like the maps, but I also dislike the mastery system in some ways. I definitely agree on adventures. I just don’t like them and have no interest in playing them. I don’t think the requirement is necessarily unreasonable as implemented, however. But I also wouldn’t mind if they added a workaround. So I’m with you there.

I agree that MMOs are based on repetition. Just like pretty much any other online game out there Problem is, the repeatable content is either challenging or has a clear long term goal. I like the HoT maps, but they have neither – after I’ve finished the meta events a couple of times, I got really bored of them, mainly because they’re very easy. As for long term goals, Gw2 in general has none, except fashion. It’s good that they tried to innovate the whole PvE experience, but in my humble opinion, a couple of good dungeons would have crated a much more well received repeatable content.

AliamRationem.5172:

Where I diverge is that I appreciate how they incorporated the mastery system into the exploration of HoT. Where you simply wish to complete the events and move on, I wanted to explore until I knew the jungle through and through (I haven’t gotten there yet! But I’m making steady progress!). While I gained experience running events, I was also working toward this other goal.

Obviously, we aren’t going to see eye to eye on that. But love them or hate them, the HoT maps offer something that you can’t find in core Tyria or in any other game I’ve experienced. And I think the mastery system fits in nicely.

Honestly, that was also my initial thought. I completed every event I could find in core Tyria, tried to explore every nook and cranny. I wanted to do the same for HoT as well, but I’ve stumbled upon gate after gate. After doing the events over and over again, I stopped because it stopped being fun and it started being a chore.

The biggest offenders in my book is the fact that you gain progression towards them only in a very specific place(the exact same place you’re trying to improve with them) and the fact that they’ll be completely outdated by the time the next expansion is out. These two elements make them feel more like a grind than a progression. It’s not about how long it takes, it’s about how you do them. It’s the biggest burnout I experienced with this game.

I’ve been playing ESO lately due to the content drought and their Champion Points system made me see why I wasn’t enjoying masteries. It’s like an account bound big skill tree with passives. I gain progression towards them doing story, dungeons, exploring, raids, dolmens, dwells and even PvP. You also have a real sense of progression because they apply to all current and future content. And most importantly, I can explore every bit of the world, because the only gate I encountered, is my skill.

Don’t get me wrong, I want the mastery system to stay, because it’s a breath of fresh air compared to the classic level boost – the issue here is that the classic method works every time, while masteries have failed(in my opinion) to deliver what they intend to: meaningful progression. I just hope they learn from HoT and add as few gates as possible and more interesting masteries, like gliding.

ESO doesn’t have the classic model, it has the alternative progression model – and that has a whole different set of issues, and classic is broken long term – look at every mmo with classic progression and you see the same thing, impossible to balance (new players get a gear handicap which ofc is daft), forced catch up mechanisms, runaway economies, old content made redundant by new content etc etc.

I still don’t see the issue with HOT, mastery points, i completed the story line when I had competed the gliding and bouncy mushrooms goals (goals not gates), and now i have only 70 points and gradually increase when I fancy a session joining in on HOT events or solo event cruising. I don’t feel I have to go there, its just another choice I have along with Dungeons, pvp, Fractals, legendary building.

Sardath.8524:

As for long term goals, Gw2 in general has none, except fashion.

That isn’t a GW2 goal, that is a player goal.
Other goals are the one thing you don’t like, masteries, legendaries, specialization and other collections where participation will get you the pieces, map and world complete on all toons, fractals, dungeons. No matter when you started there’s always something you can find to do.
Fashion is the worst goal, for a start it’s subjective and anyone who turns their graphics down can’t see it anyway.
Oscar Wilde said “fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it every six months.” And who can argue with Oscar?

Dante.1508:

Not enough, the enemies damages are still insane, and many parts (masteries etc) are still not solo able.

The damage is not insane. If your build can’t handle HoT then you are doing something wrong because there’s not that many people complaining about HoT mobs. Many parts (masteries) are communes so that isn’t true. The ones that are not require 2 maybe 3 people depending on builds and such. They are easily completed by asking in map chat.

Dante.1508:

in my opinion, anyone who enjoys HoT and can solo it are not really casual players to me..
The whole hot mechanics are designed to be not casual friendly.

Well as you refuse to let anyone help you despite offers and as you’ve said in the past you’ve moved on I guess you don’t want to be proven wrong. If by casual player you mean bad player then sure. HoT got harder. Casual means not serious, few hours a week, one weekend in four? Who knows, there is no definition. That doesn’t make them bad players. I’ve got a guildie I see once a week very regularly, I’m his Sunday evening GW2 session and we duo everywhere including HoT. He doesn’t have exotic or higher stuff, his gear isn’t all one thing, he doesn’t spend hours secretly practicing to impress me. And you know what, he doesn’t suck. HoT just simply isn’t as hard as you want to make it out to be.

General Health.9678:

The damage is not insane.

When a non-boss can one-hit or two-hit down a player using full ascended gear, that’s insane. And, HoT has many creatures that can do that.

Daddicus.6128:

If you don’t think they’re grindy, don’t post.

That’s not how discussion forums work. You say your thing, people say their thing. They are allowed to disagree with you.

General Health.9678:

… because there’s not that many people complaining about HoT mobs.

Technically, you are correct. However, that’s because droves of people have quit playing HoT or quit playing altogether. So, your statement doesn’t exactly bolster your argument.

Daddicus.6128:

General Health.9678:

The damage is not insane.

When a non-boss can one-hit or two-hit down a player using full ascended gear, that’s insane. And, HoT has many creatures that can do that.

What does ascended gear have to do with it? Me being in full exotic berserkers isn’t going to make me in less durable than if I were in ascended berserkers. Why are you trying to face tank damage instead of using active defenses to mitigate/avoid it?

If not you specifically then whoever it is you were referring to.

Anyhow, the grind discussion is, as I thought it would, destroying the thread. So, I will not post any more responses to such claims. Or, for that matter any statements not related to the subject.

The thread is about whether it would be a good idea to put graduations into masteries (especially HoT masteries) such that individual characters could progress faster than the account as a whole. The standard account mastery progression would not change at all.

Daddicus.6128:

Anyhow, the grind discussion is, as I thought it would, destroying the thread. So, I will not post any more responses to such claims. Or, for that matter any statements not related to the subject.

The thread is about whether it would be a good idea to put graduations into masteries (especially HoT masteries) such that individual characters could progress faster than the account as a whole. The standard account mastery progression would not change at all.

Unfortunately, instead of calling this thread “suggestion: graduations into masteries” you put grind into the title, dooming it to perpetuate the grind discussion. You also started your original post explicitly talking about grind. It’s no use bemoaning that the discussion you started is destroying the thread and claiming you forsaw this.

But on the subject of graduations into masteries, I personally think your idea is an attempt to get something with less effort than it currently requires. As tempting as it is to fall back on words like laziness and entitlement, I truly don’t want to inflame or derail the discussion, so let’s examine your idea and discuss why it bothers me:

Daddicus.6128:

One of the reasons it’s hard to get masteries is because you’re locked out, especially early on (gliding becomes required very early in VB). You have to earn those XP.

But, masteries are account-wide, which means they really deserve to have a high threshold of XP. If they were character-based, the XP requirement could be a lot lower.

The problem with that is that masteries by their nature deserve to be account-wide. If not, then much of their value is lost.

Why not split the difference? Allow each character to get his masteries at 1/3 of the total (or 1/4). But, give it to the rest of the account once the original XP requirement has been met, across the whole account.

Under the current system, a single mastery tier requires (A) amount of XP to fill. You are suggesting a system where, using alts, you want that same bar to fill in (A) / 3 or (A) / 4. Is my understanding correct?

Consider this: XP is the easiest part of completing masteries. It comes from everything you do and with boosters it flows in very effectively. In my own experience, a single run of DS with boosters netted me 25% of the bar in the highest mastery tiers.

I’ve finished my masteries now and frankly I can’t even remember filling them up. It went by so quickly. The mastery points were the hardest part and there are certainly plenty of discussions on making those more readily available. Further to that, there’s a feeling of satisfaction to beating that challenge. The bar was set at a certain level. You can argue whether that level is appropriate but beating it is satisfying. Asking for the level to be lowered…. not as satisfying. And the benefits are dubious, considering extra programming would be required to implement this system.

It also intrigues me that you specifically used the fractions 1/3 and 1/4. I suspect you’re imagining doing this with 3 or 4 alts. But what about players who have 20 alts? Would they only need 1/20th of the XP on each character? Where would you draw the line?
There has to be a line somewhere, or it would lead to an alts arms race where players would create as many as they can and the requirements would dwindle to almost nothing, destroying any challenge or satisfaction.

So, in response to your question:

Daddicus.6128:

The thread is about whether it would be a good idea to put graduations into masteries (especially HoT masteries) such that individual characters could progress faster than the account as a whole. The standard account mastery progression would not change at all.

No, it would not be a good idea, as you proposed it.

Trust me you don’t want easy progression you will get bored, it doesn’t matter how casual you are that isn’t rewarding in the end. Are you guys using the lfg tools? Are you asking map chat or guilds to help? People are really really helpful in the game give it a try.

Ryou.2398:

Trust me you don’t want easy progression you will get bored, it doesn’t matter how casual you are that isn’t rewarding in the end. Are you guys using the lfg tools? Are you asking map chat or guilds to help? People are really really helpful in the game give it a try.

If people were helpful, we wouldn’t need this. In HoT, it’s very rare that anybody responds to questions.

Zoltar MacRoth.7146:

Unfortunately, instead of calling this thread “suggestion: graduations into masteries” you put grind into the title, dooming it to perpetuate the grind discussion.

You’re probably correct, but I was just using ANet’s own words, in the hopes they would take notice.

Zoltar MacRoth.7146:

Under the current system, a single mastery tier requires (A) amount of XP to fill. You are suggesting a system where, using alts, you want that same bar to fill in (A) / 3 or (A) / 4. Is my understanding correct?

Close, but not quite. Each alt would fill the bar only for himself. He would fill the bar for the account to 1/3 or 1/4 (whatever the divisor is).

Your post caught my eye for another idea, though: The alt gets the mastery at, say, 1/3, but the account bar doesn’t gain it all, gaining perhaps 1/2 or 3/4 of what the XP would have netted if not split.

Zoltar MacRoth.7146:

It also intrigues me that you specifically used the fractions 1/3 and 1/4. I suspect you’re imagining doing this with 3 or 4 alts. But what about players who have 20 alts? Would they only need 1/20th of the XP on each character? Where would you draw the line?

No, the divisors would be the same for all accounts. The whole point is to encourage people to play multiple alts at a time, so as to get the whole account fully-mastered, but not in such a boring fashion.

If you play through HoT on one character, it takes an abysmally long time to get the masteries. But, if you play several at a time, they come with less boring actions.

I came up with the idea while working my third character through VB. I was only there to get the hero points, because by that time I was sick and tired of everything in HoT. But, I noticed that I wasn’t gated on that character. (Should have been obvious, but until playing on an alt, I never noticed.)

Then it struck me: the reason I hated HoT so much is because I had to earn all those mastery points and XP on one character. But, I didn’t really have to; I was just taking my best-equipped and strongest character there.

So, the boredom caused by endlessly repeating mindless events, just to be able to advance the story one more episode, it just got to me. After nearly 11 years, I seriously considered giving up on the game.

But, that boredom was in many ways self-imposed. I could have done several characters, like I do everything in core. I just never thought of it. And, more to the point, lots of people probably never thought of it.

This idea gives incentive for players to do exactly what I didn’t do (and may have even enjoyed).

Zoltar MacRoth.7146:

The bar was set at a certain level. You can argue whether that level is appropriate but beating it is satisfying.

Forum participants have had that discussion. Players resoundingly and overwhelmingly stated that the bar was (is?) too high. Players have also voted with their wallets. My guess* is that hundreds of thousands of people stopped playing … and spending.

This idea allows them to KEEP the bar set high (for accounts), but still allow HoT story progression at the character level.

• My guess is based on how much it took to get the CEO to publicly admit they made a mistake. It’s not based on any actual knowledge.

Ryou.2398:

Trust me you don’t want easy progression you will get bored, it doesn’t matter how casual you are that isn’t rewarding in the end.

Not likely for me. I’ve played through 243 of the storyline missions in core. I have 64 left to go. And, when I get there, I’ll probably want to do most of them again.

But, you’re right, speaking generally. Most people are such rabid completionists as I am.

Daddicus.6128:

Each alt would fill the bar only for himself. He would fill the bar for the account to 1/3 or 1/4 (whatever the divisor is) …The alt gets the mastery at, say, 1/3, but the account bar doesn’t gain it all, gaining perhaps 1/2 or 3/4 of what the XP would have netted if not split.

Okay, I think I understand, mostly. However, there are problems with your idea, which have to do with your next point.

Daddicus.6128:

The whole point is to encourage people to play multiple alts at a time, so as to get the whole account fully-mastered, but not in such a boring fashion.

There’s an entire discussion there whether it’s a pertinent goal to encourage people to play multiple alts. Anet’s stated goal has been ‘play as you like’ which means a player could stick to a single toon if they want. Putting that aside..

You idea actually undermines your goal of encouraging people to play multiple alts. Given that any one toon can get masteries at a fraction of the XP of the current system, it encourages the player to stick to that one toon.

When they make another toon, what will they find? They have to level up some masteries again for that toon. Yes, the account may have progressed enough to unlock some of the masteries, but you’re more than likely have to work on masteries you’ve already unlocked on your other toon.

Ironically, you’re creating the grind that you’re trying to avoid.

Daddicus.6128:

Then it struck me: the reason I hated HoT so much is because I had to earn all those mastery points and XP on one character. But, I didn’t really have to; I was just taking my best-equipped and strongest character there.

As you said, you didn’t have to earn it all on one character. You didn’t even have to take your best character there. You can use multiple characters, do different parts with each of them. Every profession gives you ways to survive. EDIT: Took out mention of DS again, as it’s not pertinent to this point.

Daddicus.6128:

But, that boredom was in many ways self-imposed. I could have done several characters, like I do everything in core. I just never thought of it. And, more to the point, lots of people probably never thought of it.

This idea gives incentive for players to do exactly what I didn’t do (and may have even enjoyed).

It’s to your credit that you see the problem was self-imposed, but as I said above your proposed solution isn’t going to help with this. It’s actually going to produce the opposite effect.

The issue seems to me that the OP encountered a particular issue that not everyone can see, because of how the OP (and others) play.

• The story is gated behind a few basic masteries.
• The OP jumped into the story first, without gaining a few masteries.
• That put them into a viscous [sic] cycle, in which they were slowed (hence “viscous”) by the story->mastery->story->mastery loop

This would have frustrated me — I hate gating stories & zones. I object to it in GW1/Factions and /Nightfall and EotN — in an “open world,” I should get to choose where I go and when; the game should not choose for me.

However, unlike the OP, I didn’t run into an issue at all, because I decided I was going to explore and learn the environment first, before even attempting the story. As a result, the only mastery that annoyed me was the first. I found (and find) that attempting to do much in VB without gliding is just tedious and frustrating.

As a result, lots of people are going to wonder what the fuss is about, while others will nod vigorously to the OP’s claims.

Far better would be to address the issue as one of gating: is it good for the game or the community that parts of the story are gated behind masteries?

An “easy” solution on ANet’s part (conceptually, not technically) would be to punt the question: simply give any character doing the personal story a way to use the relevant mastery while doing the story. (Although that doesn’t address the issue of getting to the chapter-start nodes.)

Daddicus.6128:

Zoltar MacRoth.7146:

Unfortunately, instead of calling this thread “suggestion: graduations into masteries” you put grind into the title, dooming it to perpetuate the grind discussion.

You’re probably correct, but I was just using ANet’s own words, in the hopes they would take notice.

The OP used a word, “grind”, and imbued it with a particular meaning; ANet used the same word in an entirely different context (the grind to remain on the gear treadmill). I assumed the OP is aware of this distinction, since this isn’t the first “grind” thread in which they’ve participated.

To be fair, the OP is not alone in using jargon words to try to drum up attention for a thread. The OP is also not alone in participating in digressions about the jargon word, instead of trying to return their own thread back to the original point.

The moral of the story is: don’t use jargon words unless you want to discuss their usage. Instead, find other ways to explain the relevant issue, so we can focus on that.

If you would play the game instead of posting 1000 posts in 10 hours you would’ve made those couple of masteries. Took me like a couple of days. The first mastery (gliding) literally takes 1h max. I can’t see a kittening problem. People always feel eligible to get rewarded disregarding their playstyle an if it is the kittentiest playstyle. No, you have to wake up and follow the rules of a game!

It’s not the XP or “the grind” alone. It’s the whole mastery system.

There are two totally different experiences within the HoT maps (at least for me):

• playing without endless gliding and without itzel poison lore masteries
• playing with endless gliding and with itzel poison lore masteries

I gave up playing HoT about 1 month after release. I was not able to overcome the barrier of the first topic. I was close, but I didn’t know this. I thought I were still miles away from having fun. Playing with a bunch of started masteries was no fun, so I left HoT alone.

After the spring release, I gave it another try, because it was said the XP gain was raised. It was still awfully slow, so I considered giving up a second time. By chance, I detected that there were event trains in Tangled Depth that did more than these stupid farm trains in Cursed Shore that were running around in predefined circles. They actually did play the game! They did whole event chains, so the achievements and mastery points that were connected to them were unlocked automatically. With all my XP boosters, I was able to max out about one mastery XP bar a day playing this way. That was visible progress, and I didn’t get lost in a confusing map by following a commander.

I assume I was playing the maps the way they were designed. For the first time – 7 months after release. It was fun. I enjoyed it. After enabling the endless gliding, HoT wasn’t the same. And with itzel poison lore, I wasn’t suddenly dropping dead without clue in certain areas any more. Before, I was furious about that.

Based on this experience, I have two major complaints about HoT:

• the starting experience in HoT is awful, because you need certain unlocked masteries to have fun. There is a hard barrier to overcome, and this barrier is much too high. You leave before you had fun and because you don’t had fun.
• gameplay is too complicated and too unintuitive. The map design is made too narrow for one specific gameplay style. It’s too difficult to detect how you should play to have fun. If you don’t play the maps the way they were designed, you don’t have fun.

If you play the maps as they were designed, you get XP “by the way”. But you don’t know neither how you should play nor that you will get enough XP this way. You only see a barrier and turn away.

The second thing is the mechanics behind the masteries. They are the second barrier. The HoT maps are beautifully designed with all their events. But as a new player, you are taken away the ability to actually play them. You are crippled and have to unlock even basic and essential mechanics before even start playing there.

How to avoid that players have no fun with content:

• don’t lock content behind mechanics you have to unlock in the same map area
• don’t stretch progression behind XP grind where you have to play the maps in which you have no fun until you have enough XP
• don’t lock essential mechanics (masteries) behind no-fun requirements like the adventures. This is a thing I didn’t mention yet; I am not interested in the adventures: these kind of solo achievements are absolutely no fun for me and I hate being forced to do them, even master them, to unlock mastery points. And nobody can help me with the adventures: in old Tyria, all the explorer achievements can be done in a group with the help of portals. In the adventures, you are absolutely alone. And this in a MMO where you are supposed to play in groups.

Payne.3184:

The Mastery Points are horrible for someone who can’t spend all day everyday playing the game, and/or abhors jumping puzzles… I haven’t been able to get even 1 of them in the last week… and advancing to a level of say… gliding… is impossible without them. The ones I can get i already have for the most part… My level of frustration is reaching quitting levels…

I feel this same way, though I was able to unlock Gliding (just the first point) without taking too long. However, now that I have explored Verdant Brink a little bit more, and now learn just how ridiculously frustrating this first map is for me, I am stuck halfway to getting the first mushroom jumping Mastery. I already have a huge distaste for the HoT maps, so how can I possibly make myself do enough events to fill up the XP bar? On top of that, even though I changed my stats and build on this one toon, I still feel like I die too easily, so that further dissuades me from engaging in the map events. I like to think I have good situational awareness in games….but the vertical labyrinth of even VB is beyond me. I can never seem to get to anywhere I want to go. It’s really making me want to give up on HoT and it’s Living Story…

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

However, unlike the OP, I didn’t run into an issue at all, because I decided I was going to explore and learn the environment first, before even attempting the story.

I had no idea there was really another way to play, actually. In hindsight, GW/Nightfall did the same thing, but to a much lesser degree.

Anyhow, the way I finally got enough masteries to complete the story past the doorway to AB was to completely map VB. That got me enough, but it’s a foreign way to play to me.

Plus, nobody I play with regularly plays differently than I do. We all want to see “how the story ends”. In Core, I spent very little time off the beaten trail of the storyline. So, getting the mapping title wasn’t even on the radar until after defeating Zhaitan.

I’m glad you can see the difference. And, thanks to all for showing me that there are more ways to play.

Zoltar MacRoth.7146:

Ironically, you’re creating the grind that you’re trying to avoid.

You’re right, but I think it’s too a much smaller degree. For those points earned for the 2nd character also advance the rest of the account towards those same masteries. So (if 1/3 were the divisor) by the end of the 3rd character, the whole account would be done (up to that point).

Your post brings up another issue, though:

This idea really only works for the early masteries. It could exist for the higher-tier ones, but it isn’t really needed for MY purposes. (Others probably have different ideas.) So, the idea could be limited to just storyline-required masteries.

Zoltar MacRoth.7146:

You didn’t even have to take your best character there.

Oh, yes I did. Maybe not all people, but I would have quit the first day on any of my lesser characters. It’s only because I was riding my killing machine that I even made it long enough for gliding, I think.

But, this is an idea for all, not just me. So, you are definitely correct: many people would do well with different characters.

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

The moral of the story is: don’t use jargon words unless you want to discuss their usage. Instead, find other ways to explain the relevant issue, so we can focus on that.

Lesson taken to heart.

Moyayuki.3619:

I feel this same way, though I was able to unlock Gliding (just the first point) without taking too long. However, now that I have explored Verdant Brink a little bit more, and now learn just how ridiculously frustrating this first map is for me, I am stuck halfway to getting the first mushroom jumping Mastery. I already have a huge distaste for the HoT maps, so how can I possibly make myself do enough events to fill up the XP bar? On top of that, even though I changed my stats and build on this one toon, I still feel like I die too easily, so that further dissuades me from engaging in the map events. I like to think I have good situational awareness in games….but the vertical labyrinth of even VB is beyond me. I can never seem to get to anywhere I want to go. It’s really making me want to give up on HoT and it’s Living Story…

Try taking another character in. Now that you’ve learned the ropes on one, that should make a second one easier (to a point).

By doing so, you may earn enough XP to cross a line into another mastery.

Moyayuki.3619:

runeblade.7514:

I disagree because:

• They’re not grindy.
• I do not want character-based mastery grind ever. This will be much more of a nuisance.

I suppose you missed the part where the OP said that if you don’t believe them to be grindy, then don’t post.

The OP expects only people who agree with him to post on an internet forum? Slightly naive, one would wager.

Sarie.1630:

Moyayuki.3619:

runeblade.7514:

I disagree because:

• They’re not grindy.
• I do not want character-based mastery grind ever. This will be much more of a nuisance.

I suppose you missed the part where the OP said that if you don’t believe them to be grindy, then don’t post.

The OP expects only people who agree with him to post on an internet forum? Slightly naive, one would wager.

It really is amusing. Like, if one is not comfortable defending their point of view, then how stable and supported is their point of view to begin with?

Daddicus.6128:

Moyayuki.3619:

I feel this same way, though I was able to unlock Gliding (just the first point) without taking too long. However, now that I have explored Verdant Brink a little bit more, and now learn just how ridiculously frustrating this first map is for me, I am stuck halfway to getting the first mushroom jumping Mastery. I already have a huge distaste for the HoT maps, so how can I possibly make myself do enough events to fill up the XP bar? On top of that, even though I changed my stats and build on this one toon, I still feel like I die too easily, so that further dissuades me from engaging in the map events. I like to think I have good situational awareness in games….but the vertical labyrinth of even VB is beyond me. I can never seem to get to anywhere I want to go. It’s really making me want to give up on HoT and it’s Living Story…

Try taking another character in. Now that you’ve learned the ropes on one, that should make a second one easier (to a point).

By doing so, you may earn enough XP to cross a line into another mastery.

Sadly, I have only one other 80 at the moment, and she hasn’t finished the pre-HoT Living Story, I don’t believe. And I always keep flip-flopping between lower-level alts, so getting to 80 on any toon takes forever. :P I find that once I hit level 40, I start to lose interest, probably because the map choices for level 40+ are not my favorites.

Watch the videos, look at the maps at dulfy.net.
Getting around in the new maps with minimal masteries and no xp is how we all started out. Once you can see where you’re meant to be going in VB, it makes it a lot easier to get there. Once there you start getting the XP you need for the mastery. You may never love any given map but there is player provided help if you need it.

General Health.9678:

Watch the videos, look at the maps at dulfy.net.
Getting around in the new maps with minimal masteries and no xp is how we all started out. Once you can see where you’re meant to be going in VB, it makes it a lot easier to get there. Once there you start getting the XP you need for the mastery. You may never love any given map but there is player provided help if you need it.

I think that’s bad design that you must look at guides to know where you’re supposed to go. Hell, most games I play, I beat on my own but then use guides to get all the extra, fun things once I’ve exhausted my attempts to find/collect/do them on my own. The HoT maps are just an awful clusterfrak…

Moyayuki.3619:

General Health.9678:

Watch the videos, look at the maps at dulfy.net.
Getting around in the new maps with minimal masteries and no xp is how we all started out. Once you can see where you’re meant to be going in VB, it makes it a lot easier to get there. Once there you start getting the XP you need for the mastery. You may never love any given map but there is player provided help if you need it.

I think that’s bad design that you must look at guides to know where you’re supposed to go. Hell, most games I play, I beat on my own but then use guides to get all the extra, fun things once I’ve exhausted my attempts to find/collect/do them on my own. The HoT maps are just an awful clusterfrak…

The watching video solution is just a quickfix that people suggest to easily solve the “problem.” But really, I don’t feel a problem to begin with.

What if I told you that the only videos I have watched were for raids? And yet, I have fully completed all 4 HoT maps. That being said, I did not accomplish that feat quickly — it actually took several weeks of short 1-3 hour sessions. But that is what I like about HoT; because I didn’t finish everything right away, it felt like there was more content there for me to experience. Even now, I have 126 of the 166 masteries, but that just means that the HoT maps are still relevant to me. I still have fun exploring them, and I find the map-wide objectives fun to contribute to — because I feel like I matter.

Moyayuki.3619:

General Health.9678:

Watch the videos, look at the maps at dulfy.net.
Getting around in the new maps with minimal masteries and no xp is how we all started out. Once you can see where you’re meant to be going in VB, it makes it a lot easier to get there. Once there you start getting the XP you need for the mastery. You may never love any given map but there is player provided help if you need it.

I think that’s bad design that you must look at guides to know where you’re supposed to go. Hell, most games I play, I beat on my own but then use guides to get all the extra, fun things once I’ve exhausted my attempts to find/collect/do them on my own. The HoT maps are just an awful clusterfrak…

…in your opinion. I enjoy them. Each to his own.

Razor.9872:

What if I told you that the only videos I have watched were for raids?

I’d say you were defeating your own argument.
My “watch a video if you are stuck” suggestions applies to people who are a) stuck and b) in-game or on the forums complaining they can’t do something, can’t get somewhere, that the maps need fixing / nerfing. All those things.

Moyayuki.3619:

I think that’s bad design that you must look at guides to know where you’re supposed to go.

I don’t need to look at guides, you do. You have two choices, look at a video because you are stuck or complain on the forums. One helps you get round those maps you are stuck on, the other does not.

Moyayuki.3619:

Hell, most games I use guides to get all the extra, fun things

But you won’t do that here? You just sound like you’re being difficult now, you know what guides are for but would rather just complain on the forums?

Moyayuki.3619:

once I’ve exhausted my attempts to find/collect/do them on my own.

So you even know WHEN to use guides which is once something has beaten you and before you get so frustrated you can’t cope. And again you’re arguing against using them.

I am trying to figure out what “grindy” means in GW2 because being “casual” I don’t feel I have to play for days, months or years to reach certain highlights of content like some Korean based MMOs…. now those are grindy.

There are websites out there a-plenty that will guide you, tell you when timers start that open gates, LFG tool to get you there and a decent guild can help you along the way too!

I am a casual player and still think HoT is not that big of a challenge. Maps are rarely failing now that everyone knows what to do and I have not seen a full DS or AB map fail in quite some time. Sure if I cannot get to a main map I don’t stick around for the failure and the “You are all idiots” in the map chat.

I will say that some toons are kinda soft to be roaming HoT. My ranger can down some hefty mobs but recently I had a guardian that just dirt napped all the time in HoT map areas. Then again I only leveled it to get the asc bow for my ranger so I didn’t put much gold in her as she was terminated minutes after acquiring that bow

The new player is probably the only one who may have some issues transferring to HoT because he or she is under geared. OH WAIT..If you buy HoT you get a free boost to 80 with full gear and wep set. Not ideally for the cookie cutter build but plenty enough to keep you alive and hitting HPs to get that elite skill.

Also feel free to hit other HoT maps to get HPs that are easier and wait for maps to fill with HP trains for the harder ones.

It is my humble opinion that there are many paths to getting the job done in HoT and I just cannot say it is hard in the least. Time consuming? Maybe some like DS that can go on for over an hour and a half but hey it’s the reward and loot I am after and sometimes in MMOs you have to earn that stuff!