Instanced Raids Confirmed [merged]
Remember those rpgs, where if yer main character died, you have to load from your last save… hopefully you saved pretty recently lol
But that made it more fun in a sense, more risk involved in entering a room full of enemies.
The only thing I use revive orbs is on JPs. So do not get rid of orbs (from gem store etc.)…Otherwise I agree, they are useless everywhere else!
Yumiko Emi Ishida 80 Ele, Hikari Kyoko Ishida 80 Guard TC-NA. Active RPer of NA megaserver.
Ohoni, you’ve said and I quote for each:
I’m asking for ALL rewards to be made available through ALL content, so while it would diminish the few unique rewards that each of those gameplay types offers, they would also GAIN access to dozens of other types of rewards that are currently locked out fro those types of content.
Right, but the thing is, I don’t want a unique reward for that one thing I’m good at, I want to be able to earn ALL things through that method, and I want other people to be able to earn all things through the methods they enjoy too. I want people to be able to play their favorite content as much as they want, and not have to worry about getting all the unique rewards for that content and having no other rewards left. I want people to be able to dabble in any content that interests them without having to worry that they are making zero progress towards that One Cool Thing they really want to earn. I want for players to be able to “do that thing they really enjoy doing” AND “win that reward they really want to win,” without the two things likely being mutually exclusive.
I have bolded the areas that support all content gives all rewards no matter what the content is.
Content designed for players who just like to autoattack and afk at events would have to be able to reward everything. Because that’s their favorite thing. That’s what they enjoy.
So while you may not actually support that, your word choice is leaving that open. You’re appearing more extreme than you actually are if that is the case.
And they do need to balance around players who prefer exclusive rewards. But also to players like you. I don’t think it’s impossible to please a majority of players who fall into the two opposing positions. So some prestige armors shouldn’t be exclusive to one type of content (making the armors sellable is the best way, that way those who do the content get it first before those that don’t on average). Some prestige armors should be exclusive, at least for a decent amount of time, longer for the first set of anything that’s designed to be awarded to challenging content, with the very very rare item always being exclusive. Decent amount of time being dependent on how long it would take to get the full set of legendary armor precursors or whatever you get from the raids, not necessarily the full set of legendary armor. Or however long it takes on average to get the rare tonic, etc. And when one set of exclusive armor goes non-exclusive a new exclusive armor should come in. Or tonic, etc.
That way those that don’t like a particular activity can either gut through it and get it sooner or wait a long time comparatively and get it when people start selling them or they start dropping in other areas, assuming it goes to an area they like.
I have bolded the areas that support all content gives all rewards no matter what the content is.
Did you also bold the parts where I specifically said, several times, that this should not include thing like chatting in town or random mob farming? Stop engaging in semantic nitpicking and stick to the actual discussion at hand.
And they do need to balance around players who prefer exclusive rewards.
No, they do not, because what those people want is to take things away from other players. They are not entitled to that. It’s like how some MMO players prefer free-for-all open world PvP. They want the ability to gank newbs in Queensdale whenever they like. That is their ideal state. Just because they want that, does not mean that the devs have to provide that option, because it would reduce the player experience of their victims. Same here. Some players may not want me to have the things that I want, that does not mean that they are entitled to prevent me getting those things, or that ANet needs to take their feelings into consideration. Their feelings about my loot end at my avatar’s edge.
So some prestige armors shouldn’t be exclusive to one type of content (making the armors sellable is the best way, that way those who do the content get it first before those that don’t on average).
Being able to sell them is better than nothing, but it’s still a horrible solution, as it means everyone else has to farm for gold, and the gold economy is a catastrophe. It also means that the players who do enjoy that sort of content will get rich at the other player’s expense. It’s a horribly abusive failure of a “compromise” that works entirely to the raiders’ benefit. The method by which one player earns the item should have nothing to do with another player earning that item.
Some prestige armors should be exclusive, at least for a decent amount of time, longer for the first set of anything that’s designed to be awarded to challenging content, with the very very rare item always being exclusive.
Short term exclusivity is fine, so long as it is short term and not half a year or more.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
Sure they can. They give them the same unique rewards as they give to “every mediocre/inexperienced player.” Both groups get rewards. The hardcore players don’t deserve better rewards just because they’re hardcore players, any more than the other players deserve worse rewards because they are not. They are both players in the game and both equally deserving of rewards for their time and effort
There you go mate, you even said it yourself. If you can’t put in the time and effort to do raid content, you do NOT deserve the rewards that come from raid content.
If a player like yourself puts in the time and effort to complete raid content, you are then as equally deserving of the associated rewards as anyone else who puts their time and effort into completing that content.
Honestly you just seem really incendiary, one of those people who genuinely gets off from complaining constantly.
You have addressed your own grievance. Give it a rest.
Mamorou Itou Defense Club.
Protect him at all costs.
Protect him at all costs.
We still don’t know how they are implementing this. They might even have a token system. If the first boss is easier and more casual player friendly, it might be possible for the more casual folks to get some goodies too.
The thing is, that might actually involve more raiding than just beating the thing. If I’m going to be raiding then I’d rather just beat the thing for full credit, but I really don’t want to be raiding at all, ever, so I’m looking for alternate methods that allow people to work towards those rewards without having to even start a raid (aside from maybe running it once like dungeon story mode).
I don’t believe that it would be wise to make all types of legendaries available for all game modes just yet. There needs to be material for the other expansions.
If they want to add content for later expansions, they can just add new versions of the armor. They already have one of each weapon as Legendaries (three GSs), but that isn’t stopping them from starting in on a second set with HoT.
Would it hugely bother you if in say 6 months to a year, they come up with an equivalently difficult and time consuming process in another type of game play
It would be better than nothing, but less than we deserve. We shouldn’t have to wait six months to start on a time consuming process. If it’s a time consuming process then we should be able to start immediately, if they make us wait six months to start then the process should be relatively quick to complete.
I think in practical terms, I’m fine with “raiders get it first,” but the first non-raiders should be earning the gear around 1-2 months after the first raiders start getting it, not 6-12 months later.
and awarded legendary armor pieces that were of a different skin?
This part is a definite “no.” It has to be the same skin or there’s no point. Now it’s possible that the alternative skin would look better to me than the original, in which case, I wouldn’t personally mind that much, but on principle each player should be able to get the version they want to have, and there’s no “fair” system for saying that one group can only get version A while the other group can only get version B and expect not to have members of each group upset about which version they were arbitrarily assigned.
And each area having its own skin is already par for the course for a lot of end game gear (exotics and/or ascended). Fractals have their own skin items. Teq has their own skin items. PvP has their own skin items. WvW has their own skin items. PvE has a ton of unique skins. The only area that does not have exclusive items are dungeons thanks to the dungeon reward tracks in PvP.
Yes, and all of those should continue to evolve as well, and hopefully will.
Do you see a lot of people rubbing the Fractal tonic in peoples’ faces? Because that is a very rare Fractal level 50 reward that has a drop rate about that of a precursor from the mystic forge apparently.
No, but that isn’t a skin, it’s a tonic. Do raiders want a unique tonic? I’d be fine with them having a unique tonic. Heck, for that matter, if they want a unique Outfit, I’d be totally fine with that too, just not armor skins.
Which to me says that the assumption that the exclusive rewards will suddenly turn this community bad is a bit unfounded. Not saying it won’t happen, but not saying it will happen either.
It’s already happening. In case you haven’t noticed, we’ve already had several examples of it in this thread alone.
You don’t seem to be understanding this too well.
Rewards aren’t gated to certain people. They are gated to certain content.
EVERY. SINGLE. PLAYER. Will have an equal opportunity to earn the legendary raid armor set.
If you don’t want to do that content? Oops. Too bad for you. No legendary raid armor set.
Mamorou Itou Defense Club.
Protect him at all costs.
Protect him at all costs.
I have bolded the areas that support all content gives all rewards no matter what the content is.
Did you also bold the parts where I specifically said, several times, that this should not include thing like chatting in town or random mob farming? Stop engaging in semantic nitpicking and stick to the actual discussion at hand.
And they do need to balance around players who prefer exclusive rewards.
No, they do not, because what those people want is to take things away from other players. They are not entitled to that. It’s like how some MMO players prefer free-for-all open world PvP. They want the ability to gank newbs in Queensdale whenever they like. That is their ideal state. Just because they want that, does not mean that the devs have to provide that option, because it would reduce the player experience of their victims. Same here. Some players may not want me to have the things that I want, that does not mean that they are entitled to prevent me getting those things, or that ANet needs to take their feelings into consideration. Their feelings about my loot end at my avatar’s edge.
So some prestige armors shouldn’t be exclusive to one type of content (making the armors sellable is the best way, that way those who do the content get it first before those that don’t on average).
Being able to sell them is better than nothing, but it’s still a horrible solution, as it means everyone else has to farm for gold, and the gold economy is a catastrophe. It also means that the players who do enjoy that sort of content will get rich at the other player’s expense. It’s a horribly abusive failure of a “compromise” that works entirely to the raiders’ benefit. The method by which one player earns the item should have nothing to do with another player earning that item.
Some prestige armors should be exclusive, at least for a decent amount of time, longer for the first set of anything that’s designed to be awarded to challenging content, with the very very rare item always being exclusive.
Short term exclusivity is fine, so long as it is short term and not half a year or more.
Then watch your word choice. Not everyone reads long posts like yours tend to be from beginning to end or read every thread you’ve posted in about it. So you can come off as wanting something you don’t want.
And how long it’s exclusive should be determined on how long it takes to get the entire thing. If 6 months isn’t long enough for some of the more casual players to start getting the entire thing, then 6 months is too soon to make it not exclusive to raids anymore. But if it’s 2 and a half months, then 6 months would be fine. As long as another set of exclusive gear comes out or is still out if they’re releasing sets faster than people on average get everything needed for the set of gear.
And by the way, non-permanent exclusivity does cater to both the player who wants exclusive rewards and to the player who doesn’t want any exclusive rewards when done right. As long as there is always an exclusive gear set out there for content designed to have it as a reward, then they’ve got something to work for. But the player who hates that content just has to wait for the set to be released from being exclusive.
Ohoni and others who do not favor exclusive rewards:
Would it hugely bother you if in say 6 months to a year, they come up with an equivalently difficult and time consuming process in another type of game play and awarded legendary armor pieces that were of a different skin?
Personally, it would bother me.
If Arenanet gave away the Heritage armor sets for free just because it’s 3 years later, I would be upset. That skin is there to show that I have done a bunch of stuff in Guild Wars 1. That game is still running, so go play Eye of the North if you want it.
Same thing for raider rewards. Prestige skins are there to represent their exploits in the game’s world, so if you want the items, do what they did.
What I would be okay with would be if they made a slightly modified version of the skin and made that one easier to obtain. So you can still tell who did the raid and who didn’t.
I think a few players got used to having access to all the skins due to Guild Wars 2’s failure to provide players with enough prestige skins, but the game was clearly advertised as rewarding with such skins, just like Guild Wars 1 did.
I think they realized their failure to have enough prestige skins by 2014 when they put those those new PvP and LS armor sets, and with Heart of Thorns’ legendary armors it looks like they’re finally getting on with the program. I expect the 2 new armor sets announced on the website to be prestige skins rewarding specific feats.
I wouldn’t care if they put GW1 skins or any other skin in the game as reward for something you do in GW2. Most of the people who want exclusive gear only want to brag about it. Why does one need to know if someone has done a raid and if one hasn’t? Sounds like someone needs to prove other people that they’re better than others in the game but why? That I really can’t understand.
There’s a really old-fashioned idea that people can be proud of their accomplishments, and typically, completing a raid is a pretty big accomplishment, within the scope of the game.
Mamorou Itou Defense Club.
Protect him at all costs.
Protect him at all costs.
There you go mate, you even said it yourself. If you can’t put in the time and effort to do raid content, you do NOT deserve the rewards that come from raid content.
Not in the least. Time and effort spent in a raid is not magical time and effort, it’s just time and effort, equivalent to time and effort spent doing other things. If you spend a few hours in a raid, it’s equivalent to spending a few hours doing things elsewhere in the game. There can be a slight bonus top the rewards due to difficulty, but nothing obscene. Completing a raid can offer a higher quantity of rewards than spending the same amount of time in some other type of content, but there is no reason for it to contain rewards that cannot be earned through other means, even if additional time and effort is spent in them.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
There’s a really old-fashioned idea that people can be proud of their accomplishments, and typically, completing a raid is a pretty big accomplishment, within the scope of the game.
Except the conversation at hand isn’t about them being proud of their accomplishments (such as they are), but about them getting stuff for doing what they want to do exclusively.
Anet has some reasonable looking business reasons to put in these rewards, but let’s not pretend this is about the joy of doing it.
You don’t seem to be understanding this too well.
Rewards aren’t gated to certain people. They are gated to certain content.EVERY. SINGLE. PLAYER. Will have an equal opportunity to earn the legendary raid armor set.
If you don’t want to do that content? Oops. Too bad for you. No legendary raid armor set.
Maybe you have seen this too at some restaurants:
No shirt, no shoes, no service.
In this case, this means that everybody does NOT have the same opportunities. Some types of people are excluded by default(old, very young, disabled, slow in general), some have to have all the stars align for them to make it happen(the curiously particulary despised group of working dads and moms, guildless, the non comformists, solo players, small guild players, the perceived as worthless class players, the right class but wrong style of play gamers) and some simply have the necessary time and commitment to do it.
Oh wait, can i hear you say, the Average Joe with 2 kids, bills, normal friends, a house in need of repair and a wife can of course make raids! All he has to do is organize his guild in a low friday night and practice, practice, practice until he makes it in the course of some weeks. It´s entirely his fault if he does not invest the time or motivation needed for it because he is lazy or has other duties, then the raid is just not for him.
Funnily, this is even the truth. But that truth does not help Anet in the slightest when the Average Joe outnumbers Hardcore Hans.
Some years ago, I read an article that the most sold game in my country in Central Europe was indeed an agricultural truck driver simulator. The article stated that even grown men still love to play with big machines, so construction and agricultural games sell like crazy.
tl;dr : Raids are now a reality, best of luck with it, but the premise that everyone has equal opportunities to make them is at least highly debatable.
There’s a really old-fashioned idea that people can be proud of their accomplishments, and typically, completing a raid is a pretty big accomplishment, within the scope of the game.
Except the conversation at hand isn’t about them being proud of their accomplishments (such as they are), but about them getting stuff for doing what they want to do exclusively.
Anet has some reasonable looking business reasons to put in these rewards, but let’s not pretend this is about the joy of doing it.
Except it isn’t exclusive. The content isn’t exclusive.
Everybody can do this content, and when you complete the content, you are rewarded for it.
Just like every other piece of content within the game. You do the content, which everyone is free to do, and when you complete it, you are given a reward for that content.
If you cannot complete the content, or if you do not wish to complete the content, you are not entitled to the rewards associated with that content.
The only content that is exclusive is Heart of Thorns, and that’s exclusive to people who purchase it. Everything within the expansion is available to play.
If you’re having trouble understanding that you must play the game in order to achieve things within that game, and earn rewards within that game, perhaps GW2 isn’t for you.
Mamorou Itou Defense Club.
Protect him at all costs.
Protect him at all costs.
You don’t seem to be understanding this too well.
Rewards aren’t gated to certain people. They are gated to certain content.EVERY. SINGLE. PLAYER. Will have an equal opportunity to earn the legendary raid armor set.
If you don’t want to do that content? Oops. Too bad for you. No legendary raid armor set.Maybe you have seen this too at some restaurants:
No shirt, no shoes, no service.In this case, this means that everybody does NOT have the same opportunities. Some types of people are excluded by default(old, very young, disabled, slow in general), some have to have all the stars align for them to make it happen(the curiously particulary despised group of working dads and moms, guildless, the non comformists, solo players, small guild players, the perceived as worthless class players, the right class but wrong style of play gamers) and some simply have the necessary time and commitment to do it.
Oh wait, can i hear you say, the Average Joe with 2 kids, bills, normal friends, a house in need of repair and a wife can of course make raids! All he has to do is organize his guild in a low friday night and practice, practice, practice until he makes it in the course of some weeks. It´s entirely his fault if he does not invest the time or motivation needed for it because he is lazy or has other duties, then the raid is just not for him.
Funnily, this is even the truth. But that truth does not help Anet in the slightest when the Average Joe outnumbers Hardcore Hans.
Some years ago, I read an article that the most sold game in my country in Central Europe was indeed an agricultural truck driver simulator. The article stated that even grown men still love to play with big machines, so construction and agricultural games sell like crazy.tl;dr : Raids are now a reality, best of luck with it, but the premise that everyone has equal opportunities to make them is at least highly debatable.
I prefer the following analogy (I’ll keep it food themed):
A child wants dessert.
They must eat their dinner before they can receive that dessert.
Their older sibling is provided the same set of rules for getting their dessert – that they must first eat their dinner. The older sibling does so, and does it faster because they are better at handling cutlery, or they enjoyed their dinner a bit more, and so they get their dessert.
You see?
If you want your dessert, you’re gonna need to eat your dinner first.
And if you want your legendary armor, you’re gonna need to complete your raid first. Just like older sibling did.
Mamorou Itou Defense Club.
Protect him at all costs.
Protect him at all costs.
There you go mate, you even said it yourself. If you can’t put in the time and effort to do raid content, you do NOT deserve the rewards that come from raid content.
Not in the least. Time and effort spent in a raid is not magical time and effort, it’s just time and effort, equivalent to time and effort spent doing other things. If you spend a few hours in a raid, it’s equivalent to spending a few hours doing things elsewhere in the game. There can be a slight bonus top the rewards due to difficulty, but nothing obscene. Completing a raid can offer a higher quantity of rewards than spending the same amount of time in some other type of content, but there is no reason for it to contain rewards that cannot be earned through other means, even if additional time and effort is spent in them.
You seem to have a very skewed idea of what effort is.
If you don’t want to put the effort into getting those rewards, you aren’t going to get those rewards, and I think it’ll do you a lot of good to just accept that.
If you want legendary armor, I’m sure you’ll put the effort into doing the content to get it. Good luck!
Mamorou Itou Defense Club.
Protect him at all costs.
Protect him at all costs.
I prefer the following analogy (I’ll keep it food themed):
A child wants dessert.
They must eat their dinner before they can receive that dessert.
Their older sibling is provided the same set of rules for getting their dessert – that they must first eat their dinner. The older sibling does so, and does it faster because they are better at handling cutlery, or they enjoyed their dinner a bit more, and so they get their dessert.You see?
If you want your dessert, you’re gonna need to eat your dinner first.And if you want your legendary armor, you’re gonna need to complete your raid first. Just like older sibling did.
And again, I agree with that. But that is not my point at all.
I will stay with your analogy and throw in that the younger sibling has maybe a slow metabolism and so prefers food with much sugar because a piece of dark bread will rummage in it´s belly for hours. Not a problem at all until here, he just takes a little time to do it. This is the group of people that can do, but won´t necessarily do it.
But let´s say you try to serve him a salty meal with him being allergic to salt. He won´t eat it, because he simply can´t. This would be the group of people who simply can´t do it, even if they wanted to do it.
Should the younger sibling not receive a desert because he was unable, not unwilling, to diggest the salty meal that is prerequisite for the dessert?
I prefer the following analogy (I’ll keep it food themed):
A child wants dessert.
They must eat their dinner before they can receive that dessert.
Their older sibling is provided the same set of rules for getting their dessert – that they must first eat their dinner. The older sibling does so, and does it faster because they are better at handling cutlery, or they enjoyed their dinner a bit more, and so they get their dessert.You see?
If you want your dessert, you’re gonna need to eat your dinner first.And if you want your legendary armor, you’re gonna need to complete your raid first. Just like older sibling did.
And again, I agree with that. But that is not my point at all.
I will stay with your analogy and throw in that the younger sibling has maybe a slow metabolism and so prefers food with much sugar because a piece of dark bread will rummage in it´s belly for hours. Not a problem at all until here, he just takes a little time to do it. This is the group of people that can do, but won´t necessarily do it.
But let´s say you try to serve him a salty meal with him being allergic to salt. He won´t eat it, because he simply can´t. This would be the group of people who simply can´t do it, even if they wanted to do it.
Should the younger sibling not receive a desert because he was unable, not unwilling, to diggest the salty meal that is prerequisite for the dessert?
But we aren’t talking about inability, we’re talking about refusal.
If you’re unable to move your character, use your characters skills, dodge roll, jump, press keys, target an opponent, then I’ll agree that you have an inability to complete raid content – but you also have an inability to play Guild Wars 2 at all. Arguably that’s all you need to do in order to complete raid content, and since we don’t know enough that would suggest otherwise, I’d suggest there’s no point even complaining about it.
The issue people are having is that the rewards are gated behind content that they don’t want to do (they don’t even know what the content looks like, they just see the word raid and suddenly spit the dummy), not that they are unable to do it. That’s fine. If they refuse to do content, and they want to constantly go on and on about how they’re refusing to do the content, cool. That’s fine. But they don’t get dessert.
If something has happened to the child that has made them physically incapable of consumption, then something is medically wrong with that child and they shouldn’t be at the dinner table, they should be at a hospital.
Mamorou Itou Defense Club.
Protect him at all costs.
Protect him at all costs.
Except it isn’t exclusive. The content isn’t exclusive.
Everybody can do this content, and when you complete the content, you are rewarded for it.
Just like every other piece of content within the game. You do the content, which everyone is free to do, and when you complete it, you are given a reward for that content.
It is by necessity and nature exclusive. The entire reason this content exists is because some players felt that the existing content was not exclusive enough. If literally anyone could do the raids, then you can bet the forums would be on fire with people demanding that they be made harder, until less people could complete them. I’m fine with that, I don’t need to complete the raids, so long as I have alternative methods for earning the rewards. If there are no alternative methods, then we’re coming after the gameplay next, and we’ll get those raids nerfed into oblivion. Pick your poison.
Or what about those players who might have all the skills to run a raid, in theory, but their life does not allow them that option. Perhaps they are only able to play during odd hours, or on odd days of the week where forming a raid group is impossible. Or perhaps they can only play for 15-30 minutes here and there. Or perhaps they can play, but need the ability to stop what they’re doing at a moment’s notice, to, say, prevent their child from killing himself, even if that might mean the raid group wipes. Couldn’t those players have other alternatives?
You seem to have a very skewed idea of what effort is.
If you don’t want to put the effort into getting those rewards, you aren’t going to get those rewards, and I think it’ll do you a lot of good to just accept that.
If you want legendary armor, I’m sure you’ll put the effort into doing the content to get it. Good luck!
As I’ve said, I am perfectly willing to put forth just as much effort as any raider, I would just prefer it to be in an activity that I enjoy as much as a raider enjoys raiding. If you cannot understand that, then perhaps it is you who does not understand the meaning of the word “effort.”
But we aren’t talking about inability, we’re talking about refusal.
If you’re unable to move your character, use your characters skills, dodge roll, jump, press keys, target an opponent, then I’ll agree that you have an inability to complete raid content – but you also have an inability to play Guild Wars 2 at all. Arguably that’s all you need to do in order to complete raid content, and since we don’t know enough that would suggest otherwise, I’d suggest there’s no point even complaining about it.
Let’s say that the parent provided a meal that the younger child hates, while the older child really enjoys that food. Is it really an equal burden being placed on them to each finish the meal? Or let’s say that the child is mildly allergic to the meal, but the parent does not care because he prefers the older child, so while the younger might cramp down the meal because he really wants that desert, it would cause him to break out in hives. Is that fair to him?
Please understand that this is the situation here, it is not just a matter of “well, they should try harder,” it’s that you asking players to engage in something that might be in great conflict with their lives, and which they have zero interest in, but that they might do anyways if they want the rewards bad enough. That is not “fair” to them when the other side of the coin is people having the time of their lives doing the same content, and laughing about all those “whiners” who want the same rewards for not doing that content.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
But we aren’t talking about inability, we’re talking about refusal.
If you’re unable to move your character, use your characters skills, dodge roll, jump, press keys, target an opponent, then I’ll agree that you have an inability to complete raid content – but you also have an inability to play Guild Wars 2 at all. Arguably that’s all you need to do in order to complete raid content, and since we don’t know enough that would suggest otherwise, I’d suggest there’s no point even complaining about it.The issue people are having is that the rewards are gated behind content that they don’t want to do (they don’t even know what the content looks like, they just see the word raid and suddenly spit the dummy), not that they are unable to do it. That’s fine. If they refuse to do content, and they want to constantly go on and on about how they’re refusing to do the content, cool. That’s fine. But they don’t get dessert.
If something has happened to the child that has made them physically incapable of consumption, then something is medically wrong with that child and they shouldn’t be at the dinner table, they should be at a hospital.
But raids are supposed to be hard to eat. So let´s assume for now that a meal that is a raid is by definition spicy. With all things spicy, this is a highly variable term. There are people that would say a simple sausage is already spicy, while others think of a green pepper only beginning to be spicy.
So assuming from the point that I maybe am severely hindered but not that ill that a hospital would let me go on station there(thinking about diabetes for example): If I am able to eat a sausage, am I also able to eat a Texan Firefighter Chilly?
Of course there is something that probably everyone heard when at the table at home: Just try it before you say you don´t like it.
That is something I can fully agree with. But only unreasonable parents force their children over and over again to eat the same vegetable because they happen to like it themselves, hoping that finally, maybe the day before the children leave the care of their parents, they will start to like it. This works as good for my point as it does for yours, raiders were fed open world for years. So if raids turn out to be not the success Anet is looking for, would you agree that they, as reasonable parents, should try to feed us something else to get our sweets we all want?
Please understand that this is the situation here, it is not just a matter of “well, they should try harder,” it’s that you asking players to engage in something that might be in great conflict with their lives, and which they have zero interest in, but that they might do anyways if they want the rewards bad enough. That is not “fair” to them when the other side of the coin is people having the time of their lives doing the same content, and laughing about all those “whiners” who want the same rewards for not doing that content.
If you have so little time to even play games then what does it even matter? What are you doing with that minute amount of time that you’re desperate to look as fresh as possible? Do you really want to be swirling mass of particle effects as you run around getting your dailies done while you can that badly?
This whole beef sounds like you just have a personal issue where you let your own self esteem be dictated by others and are convinced they are all looking down on you or lording their shinnies over you.
I can’t even comprehend how you would deal with the inevitability of someone on the street driving past you in car you could never hope to afford.
Connection error(s) detected. Retrying…
If you have so little time to even play games then what does it even matter? What are you doing with that minute amount of time that you’re desperate to look as fresh as possible? Do you really want to be swirling mass of particle effects as you run around getting your dailies done while you can that badly?
Basically, it’s not for you to judge.
That’s really the only answer to those questions that you need, but I’ll elaborate anyways because I’m wordy. It’s not your business what I do with my time any more than it’s my business what you do. If I can find small amounts of time to enjoy myself, then I think that’s a good use of my time, and so far as that goes, my opinion is the only one that matters. If I want to get the cool rewards, and there’s no good reason why I shouldn’t then who is harmed by providing me a method by which I could earn them?
This whole beef sounds like you just have a personal issue where you let your own self esteem be dictated by others and are convinced they are all looking down on you or lording their shinnies over you.
Only the ones who flat out say “I deserve this thing and you do not,” because that is literally what they are doing. It’s not a persecution complex when people are actively persecuting you.
I can’t even comprehend how you would deal with the inevitability of someone on the street driving past you in car you could never hope to afford.
The thing is, that car fits my model of the world better than yours, because while some people might be able to afford that car on only a fraction of a year’s salary, then even if it would take me decades to save up, I could still eventually get that car, because I would be making the same dollars as that other person, just in smaller amounts. It wouldn’t be a case where the car can only be bought using “Doctor bucks,” which are impossible to get outside of being a doctor no matter how many hours you put in.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
Please understand that this is the situation here, it is not just a matter of “well, they should try harder,” it’s that you asking players to engage in something that might be in great conflict with their lives, and which they have zero interest in, but that they might do anyways if they want the rewards bad enough. That is not “fair” to them when the other side of the coin is people having the time of their lives doing the same content, and laughing about all those “whiners” who want the same rewards for not doing that content.
I understand perfectly.
They just won’t be able to access the rewards that come from completing content if they are unable to complete content.
It’s…not a difficult concept.
And if you think this will be fixed by allowing all rewards to be achievable in all areas of the game, you’re delusional.
The reward I will get for completing a raid should not, and should NEVER, be the same as the reward you can get for downing Shadow Behemoth a few times, or whatever “fix” you envision.
I’m sorry. This is no judgment to you as a player or anything. But raid exclusive rewards are here to stay, and if you are unable to put in the time and effort to completing raids, then you are not entitled (bet no ones ever said that to you before) to the rewards.
Mamorou Itou Defense Club.
Protect him at all costs.
Protect him at all costs.
(edited by Canakun.8031)
The thing is, that car fits my model of the world better than yours, because while some people might be able to afford that car on only a fraction of a year’s salary, then even if it would take me decades to save up, I could still eventually get that car, because I would be making the same dollars as that other person, just in smaller amounts. It wouldn’t be a case where the car can only be bought using “Doctor bucks,” which are impossible to get outside of being a doctor no matter how many hours you put in.
This isn’t saying what you think it’s saying…
You’re just as entitled to access that car through the designated system of acquisition as anyone else. You pay for it, just as the other person pays for it.
With money.
What you’re asking for is that you be allowed to barter for the car with livestock and grain.
Mamorou Itou Defense Club.
Protect him at all costs.
Protect him at all costs.
But we aren’t talking about inability, we’re talking about refusal.
If you’re unable to move your character, use your characters skills, dodge roll, jump, press keys, target an opponent, then I’ll agree that you have an inability to complete raid content – but you also have an inability to play Guild Wars 2 at all. Arguably that’s all you need to do in order to complete raid content, and since we don’t know enough that would suggest otherwise, I’d suggest there’s no point even complaining about it.The issue people are having is that the rewards are gated behind content that they don’t want to do (they don’t even know what the content looks like, they just see the word raid and suddenly spit the dummy), not that they are unable to do it. That’s fine. If they refuse to do content, and they want to constantly go on and on about how they’re refusing to do the content, cool. That’s fine. But they don’t get dessert.
If something has happened to the child that has made them physically incapable of consumption, then something is medically wrong with that child and they shouldn’t be at the dinner table, they should be at a hospital.
But raids are supposed to be hard to eat. So let´s assume for now that a meal that is a raid is by definition spicy. With all things spicy, this is a highly variable term. There are people that would say a simple sausage is already spicy, while others think of a green pepper only beginning to be spicy.
So assuming from the point that I maybe am severely hindered but not that ill that a hospital would let me go on station there(thinking about diabetes for example): If I am able to eat a sausage, am I also able to eat a Texan Firefighter Chilly?
Of course there is something that probably everyone heard when at the table at home: Just try it before you say you don´t like it.
That is something I can fully agree with. But only unreasonable parents force their children over and over again to eat the same vegetable because they happen to like it themselves, hoping that finally, maybe the day before the children leave the care of their parents, they will start to like it. This works as good for my point as it does for yours, raiders were fed open world for years. So if raids turn out to be not the success Anet is looking for, would you agree that they, as reasonable parents, should try to feed us something else to get our sweets we all want?
I made my initial analogy while walking, on my phone. I appreciate that it has flaws.
The point I’m trying to make that if two people have equal access to something, but only one of them is willing to do the task required to get it, only that person is entitled to the thing. The other person can’t flounce and cry and scream and demand it be handed to them the way they want it to be handed to them. They just don’t get it. They can stand themselves up and do the task required to get the thing, and it will likely be waiting there for them for a long long time, but until that happens, they don’t get the thing.
The people in this thread demanding they get raid rewards for doing open world content are that second person collapsing to the ground, demanding they be handed something, just because person 1 has it, despite the fact that person 1 actually did the task required to get it.
They are the younger sibling, refusing to eat their (perfectly healthy, nutritional, and tasty) dinner, yet screaming and complaining and flailing and demanding they have dessert, just because big brother already has his.
The thing that they want is there. It’s been put in the game so that they can have it. They just need to get over themselves and do what’s necessary.
Mamorou Itou Defense Club.
Protect him at all costs.
Protect him at all costs.
They just won’t be able to access the rewards that come from completing content if they are unable to complete content.
but there’s no reason why this should have to be. Why should they have to choose (assuming they even have the choice) between either doing something that they don’t want to do, or doing without the reward that they do want? This is not some immutable system, like complaining about tornadoes and expecting them to change course in response. This is a commercial product, made by people, and any element of it can change at their whims. Since they CAN allow players to earn these rewards through other, more convenient means, why shouldn’t they?
This isn’t saying what you think it’s saying…
You’re just as entitled to access that car through the designated system of acquisition as anyone else. You pay for it, just as the other person pays for it.
With money.What you’re asking for is that you be allowed to barter for the car with livestock and grain.
Which I could do, by selling those livestock and grain for cash, and using that cash to buy the car (or find a car dealership in a rural area that would take a direct trade). But you see, flexibility, multiple options. That’s what we need here.
I made my initial analogy while walking, on my phone. I appreciate that it has flaws.
I know, no analogy is perfect, but yours actually does work very well when you incorporate the idea that the younger child might in faxct have good reasons for not eating his meal before desert, that it might not just be down to him being spoiled, or incompetent or otherwise inferior to the older brother, but that he might have genuine reasons why he can’t or at least shouldn’t be eating that meal, but why should that be a reason that he shouldn’t get his desert? You analogy actually applies a lot better than you intended.
The point I’m trying to make that if two people have equal access to something, but only one of them is willing to do the task required to get it, only that person is entitled to the thing.
Maybe. But if the person determining “who is entitled to that thing” looks at the two of them, and fairly judges that the task is unreasonable for one of them, then the magnanimous thing to do would be to open some alternate path for that person, to make multiple ways in which one can become entitled to that thing. That’s something you seem to refuse to grasp, that the rules by which the first person has “earned” his reward, are entirely arbitrary ones, and they could easily be substituted for different rules at any time, and anyone who earns the reward under those new rules would be equally as entitled to it.
The people in this thread demanding they get raid rewards for doing open world content are that second person collapsing to the ground, demanding they be handed something,
No, they’re paying customers, playing an entertainment product, who feel that their interest as customers should be taken into account. Now that doesn’t mean that they automatically deserve to get what they want, but their desires should be considered, and if there is a method to please both parties, or if one party if larger than the other, then their interests should win out.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
I made my initial analogy while walking, on my phone. I appreciate that it has flaws.
The point I’m trying to make that if two people have equal access to something, but only one of them is willing to do the task required to get it, only that person is entitled to the thing. The other person can’t flounce and cry and scream and demand it be handed to them the way they want it to be handed to them. They just don’t get it. They can stand themselves up and do the task required to get the thing, and it will likely be waiting there for them for a long long time, but until that happens, they don’t get the thing.The people in this thread demanding they get raid rewards for doing open world content are that second person collapsing to the ground, demanding they be handed something, just because person 1 has it, despite the fact that person 1 actually did the task required to get it.
They are the younger sibling, refusing to eat their (perfectly healthy, nutritional, and tasty) dinner, yet screaming and complaining and flailing and demanding they have dessert, just because big brother already has his.The thing that they want is there. It’s been put in the game so that they can have it. They just need to get over themselves and do what’s necessary.
I think the really contestable part of your argument is for me that everyone can do the raid if he can put the ressources and time into it, like you can do when you eat.
But raiding is not as easy as eating, and not as hard as higher mathematics. The largest majority of humans can count to three, but only the tinest minority can do mathematics at the highest level.
For you, raiding is probably near simple counting and easily in the reach of everyone if they really try.
For me, raiding is more of a junior college level thing and out of the reach of someone who barely managed to make a high school diploma.
Therefore, the real questions for me are:
Is it justified that high school diploma graduates have to fight for the same jobs as college level graduates? Of course not.
Is it justified that the college guy earns more money? Of course.
Should there be an extra currency for you just because you are a college guy? Of course not.
You would be right if all people were more or less the same in certain parameters, but they are not.
As you probably also noticed, I am not a fan of raids in general, but I am also generally willing to give them a try again in GW2, mainly because my guild mates demand it.^^
Why are people still replying to Ohoni? He has been writing massive posts for weeks because he just likes making up nonsense.
Look at this;
“Let’s say that the parent provided a meal that the younger child hates, while the older child really enjoys that food. Is it really an equal burden being placed on them to each finish the meal? Or let’s say that the child is mildly allergic to the meal, but the parent does not care because he prefers the older child, so while the younger might cramp down the meal because he really wants that desert, it would cause him to break out in hives. Is that fair to him?”
Does this need a reply? Nope, its insane.
I don’t mind exclusive items behind raids etc, but I do feel that there should be more exclusive items elsewhere, in WvW, PvP and even dropped from random mobs in open world.
One of the reasons I moved away from WoW was that so much high end gear was only available from Raids, not just armor and weapons, but recipes as well, so even as a crafter you couldn’t make good gear. I really hope that this isn’t the start of GW2 going down that slippery slope. At least i have a chance of crafting a legendary weapon and ascended armor at the moment.
Some people seem to think that being able to play ‘hardcore’ for several hours a day makes them better than people like myself who work all day and play for relaxation, I don’t want a game to feel like a job where you have to know exactly what to do, and do it perfectly and have 9 other people relying on you to do it right.
We all want shiny things to show we are better/luckier than everyone else so I feel that variations of those things should be available in all areas of game play.
Speaking as someone who is iffy on doing the raids – if they offer raid gear outside of raids, then raids are pointless and they might as well go the way of Dungeons.
I hate this attitude so much you have no idea. Like I should be able to get x equipment doing y.
No. You do X to get X Equipment or you don’t get it.
And it’s not like people running around shining like the sun have better stats than you – they don’t.
They put the time and effort into doing raids and got reward with Legendary armor – good on them. I shouldn’t be able to put time and effort into something else and get the same reward, unless the ‘something else’ is equally as difficult as raids.
However, aNet has always had kids gloves when it comes to the more entitled and whiny players of their game, so I have no doubt in my mind Legendary Armor will be achievable without doing raids.
Since they CAN allow players to earn these rewards through other, more convenient means, why shouldn’t they?
In order to make the game environment interesting. Various item skin telling you what a given player has done and likes to do is good because it lets you bond with others in a way. It gives the game character. Overcoming difficulty and inconvenience makes the result more precious because it required dedication. You needed to put something of yourself into it.
Dark Souls is a widely praised and critically acclaimed game because it’s based on the principle that challenges are good because they’re satisfying to overcome. And of course because the game does it very well! If you want Quelaag’s Furysword you need to defeat Quelaag. If you want the full set of pyromancy spells you need to find and enter the Painted World (and get out again!). It isn’t a matter of deserving or not deserving, it’s just that some things place demands on you in order to be true to the game world and be meaningful.
Only the ones who flat out say “I deserve this thing and you do not,” because that is literally what they are doing. It’s not a persecution complex when people are actively persecuting you.
They deserve it because they put in the effort. No one is preventing you from putting in the same and most would probably be more than happy to help you to stand there with them.
Get the kitten over yourself. This is absolutely a persecution complex.
The thing is, that car fits my model of the world better than yours, because while some people might be able to afford that car on only a fraction of a year’s salary, then even if it would take me decades to save up, I could still eventually get that car, because I would be making the same dollars as that other person, just in smaller amounts. It wouldn’t be a case where the car can only be bought using “Doctor bucks,” which are impossible to get outside of being a doctor no matter how many hours you put in.
Except there are more than enough cars that are absolutely beyond the reach of someone who may only be able to put away ~$1000 a year starting when they are in their 30-40s. People don’t live forever and they will not just eventually get that car.
The could put the effort in to instead get a better paying position/job to afford the car faster but then that would just prove my point even more.
And please stop butchering posts with misplaced quote tags…
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And regular, non-rich people could not just have inherited, won it on the lottery or have lend the car because of…?
Everything revolving around money and people deserving it is a highly unstable ground to move on when you try to argue for exclusive rewards. Does a CEO of a company really deserve to make so much more money than the friendly kindergarten teacher that takes care of your kids?
Speaking as someone who is iffy on doing the raids – if they offer raid gear outside of raids, then raids are pointless and they might as well go the way of Dungeons.
Lol. You seem to have forgotten why these raids were introduced. Let me remid you – it wasn’t in order to give elitists unique gear. It was to supply a challenging content. Which they would do regardless of exclusivity of the rewards.
But if what you are saying is true, then the raids are pointless, because the function they were created for is not needed. They could be replaced by a vending machine that offers the unique gear to you and few other chosen people, but not anyone else.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
I don’t mind exclusive items behind raids etc, but I do feel that there should be more exclusive items elsewhere, in WvW, PvP and even dropped from random mobs in open world.
Most of the people supporting raid exclusivity here, also support this, I’m more than happy to have exclusive rewards in each part of the game, it makes each player more unique based on what they can and can’t do. And makes each activitiy worthwhile as it’s no longer tied to its gold value.
And regular, non-rich people could not just have inherited, won it on the lottery or have lend the car because of…?
Everything revolving around money and people deserving it is a highly unstable ground to move on when you try to argue for exclusive rewards. Does a CEO of a company really deserve to make so much more money than the friendly kindergarten teacher that takes care of your kids?
The money analogy doesn’t really work in the fantasy world setting.
Think of it as , The magical item is only equip-able by those it sees as worthy and it set raid A , as the test for worthiness. Or something along those lines.
Bottom line the games a series of tests and challenges: you pass test A you get item A you pass test B you get item B, being able to pass test B does not and never will give you item A because test B is not test A and they are not equatable.
The whole “put equal effort” in is bull , if test A is jump 10 feet in the air, I don’t care how far you can swim or whatever else you can do, because that’s not jumping 10 feet in the air.
As to your example
Capable of minding and developing a child without damage or loss of life = 90%~ of the adult population
Capable of managing a multinational company in a profitable and sustainable way = 1%~ of the adult population.
The man minding the children is easily replaceable and the skill is widely available, due to supply and demand his position is valued less.
The woman acting as CEO of a fortune 500 company or the like has a rarer skill it is in high demand and low supply so the value of her position is higher.
I.E part of the basis for capitalism supply and demand.
[RoF] and [BL] guild leader
11x level 80’s 80+ Titles 2600+ skins , still a long way to go.
11x level 80’s 80+ Titles 2600+ skins , still a long way to go.
(edited by Conski Deshan.2057)
Speaking as someone who is iffy on doing the raids – if they offer raid gear outside of raids, then raids are pointless and they might as well go the way of Dungeons.
Lol. You seem to have forgotten why these raids were introduced. Let me remid you – it wasn’t in order to give elitists unique gear. It was to supply a challenging content. Which they would do regardless of exclusivity of the rewards.
But if what you are saying is true, then the raids are pointless, because the function they were created for is not needed. They could be replaced by a vending machine that offers the unique gear to you and few other chosen people, but not anyone else.
Well it was to give the illusion of challenging content ,yes.
There’s a huge difference. Raids are replacing execution challenge with accessibility challenge.
That and them trying to honestly meet requests for guild and multigroup content.
The money analogy doesn’t really work in the fantasy world setting.
Think of it as , The magical item is only equip-able by those it sees as worthy and it set raid A , as the test for worthiness. Or something along those lines.
Bottom line the games a series of tests and challenges: you pass test A you get item A you pass test B you get item B, being able to pass test B does not and never will give you item A because test B is not test A and they are not equatable.
The whole “put equal effort” in is bull , if test A is jump 10 feet in the air, I don’t care how far you can swim or whatever else you can do, because that’s not jumping 10 feet in the air.As to your example
Capable of minding and developing a child without damage or loss of life = 90%~ of the adult population
Capable of managing a multinational company in a profitable and sustainable way = 1%~ of the adult population.
The man minding the children is easily replaceable and the skill is widely available, due to supply and demand his position is valued less.
The woman acting as CEO of a fortune 500 company or the like has a rarer skill it is in high demand and slow supply so the value of her position is higher.
I.E part of the basis for capitalism supply and demand.
You can´t get lucky to get the item of a raid in open world, they are only in raids.
You can´t win the football championships if you are not part of the winning team.
You can get lucky and find a precursor from a trash mob.
You can win a car in RL without putting much effort into it.
The central question here is, is GW2 more of a street full of common people or the olympic village? And will the regular people pay by buying the game to watch the athletes play the game?
Regarding the CEO and the kindergarten teacher, ask 10 people on the street what they think about it, and you will get 15 opinions. Ask attac and they´ll shower you with arguments why the CEO is vastly overpaid. Ask the same question with a conservative, economy friendly political party and you will see them swarm out and shower you with arguments why the CEO is worth the money.
Ask the communal government if the kindergarten teacher is underpaid, and they will fight tooth and nail to prove that they are not underpaid and they could not pay more in any way.
Ask teachers and parents the same question and you will have to wade through arguments why education is important and the kindergarten teacher should not be forced to build programs for their children that involve begging for every penny from thier superiors.
The basis for manchester capitalism is indeed supply and demand only, the more social marekting models have long ago seen that this is not the case if the corporations loose money because they are stupid. Big, big banks came sniveling and groveling to states when their house of cards was blown away. i would have hesitated to use this argument before the world economy took a dive some years ago, but now I feel completely comfortable with it because the biggest CEOs have proven that they basically have no idea what they are doing and most of them don´t even care.
With this announcement, is it possible to cancel a preorder? I left WoW because they catered so hard to the raiders, and treated anyone who couldn’t or didn’t raid as second-class. I have no desire to support the decision to cater to a minority who enjoy raiding and force everyone else to endure something they don’t enjoy, or go without.
“entitled”: Ad Hominem fallacy condensed to a single word.
I think the examples people are giving are hardly on-topic anymore…
The best example on the topic is every other RPG ever released so far in gaming history, that doesn’t use a 100% pure random loot system. In every such RPG ever created, items are rewards behind content, very very specific content. Usually the hardest dungeons and the hardest bosses also have the best possible loot. That’s how every RPG ever works, video game or even not video games, like p&p RPGs.
The game masters make dungeons, and they add dungeon-appropriate rewards for them. Usually in a lot of RPGs, since they are single player, and not meant to be repeated, you get the exact item the boss character is using. You want that Staff of Awesome Time Bending that is held by a powerful Lich Wizard? Well you will probably have to go and kill him, or infiltrate his castle and steal it. Farming his minions that plague the countryside won’t reward you the item no matter how many you kill.
You want that epic gemstone that is part of a Dragon’s hoard? You will probably have to infiltrate said hoard and either kill the Dragon or find another way to get it, still doing the actual content. Farming the random goblin army minions won’t give you the item.
Yet in MMORPGs players have this weird idea of everything being available to every type of gameplay although this thing doesn’t exist in any other RPG, so why should it in MMORPGs?
I think the examples people are giving are hardly on-topic anymore…
The best example on the topic is every other RPG ever released so far in gaming history, that doesn’t use a 100% pure random loot system. In every such RPG ever created, items are rewards behind content, very very specific content. Usually the hardest dungeons and the hardest bosses also have the best possible loot. That’s how every RPG ever works, video game or even not video games, like p&p RPGs.
The game masters make dungeons, and they add dungeon-appropriate rewards for them. Usually in a lot of RPGs, since they are single player, and not meant to be repeated, you get the exact item the boss character is using. You want that Staff of Awesome Time Bending that is held by a powerful Lich Wizard? Well you will probably have to go and kill him, or infiltrate his castle and steal it. Farming his minions that plague the countryside won’t reward you the item no matter how many you kill.
You want that epic gemstone that is part of a Dragon’s hoard? You will probably have to infiltrate said hoard and either kill the Dragon or find another way to get it, still doing the actual content. Farming the random goblin army minions won’t give you the item.
Yet in MMORPGs players have this weird idea of everything being available to every type of gameplay although this thing doesn’t exist in any other RPG, so why should it in MMORPGs?
Because “Play your way” was one of the marketing promises? The ability to do what you ENJOY, not what was REQUIRED, and to be able to enjoy the top-tier rewards. Because for 3 years, we haven’t had raids with exclusive rewards, and quite honestly only a very small group of people even wanted them?
Now, ANet has drawn a line in the sand: raiders are more important than non-raiders, and get exclusive rewards that can’t be earned anywhere else. If that’s their decision, well, it’s their game, but its not the game I bought, and not a game I’m interested in supporting.
“entitled”: Ad Hominem fallacy condensed to a single word.
I think the examples people are giving are hardly on-topic anymore…
The best example on the topic is every other RPG ever released so far in gaming history, that doesn’t use a 100% pure random loot system. In every such RPG ever created, items are rewards behind content, very very specific content. Usually the hardest dungeons and the hardest bosses also have the best possible loot. That’s how every RPG ever works, video game or even not video games, like p&p RPGs.
The game masters make dungeons, and they add dungeon-appropriate rewards for them. Usually in a lot of RPGs, since they are single player, and not meant to be repeated, you get the exact item the boss character is using. You want that Staff of Awesome Time Bending that is held by a powerful Lich Wizard? Well you will probably have to go and kill him, or infiltrate his castle and steal it. Farming his minions that plague the countryside won’t reward you the item no matter how many you kill.
You want that epic gemstone that is part of a Dragon’s hoard? You will probably have to infiltrate said hoard and either kill the Dragon or find another way to get it, still doing the actual content. Farming the random goblin army minions won’t give you the item.
Yet in MMORPGs players have this weird idea of everything being available to every type of gameplay although this thing doesn’t exist in any other RPG, so why should it in MMORPGs?
Because “Play your way” was one of the marketing promises? The ability to do what you ENJOY, not what was REQUIRED, and to be able to enjoy the top-tier rewards. Because for 3 years, we haven’t had raids with exclusive rewards, and quite honestly only a very small group of people even wanted them?
Now, ANet has drawn a line in the sand: raiders are more important than non-raiders, and get exclusive rewards that can’t be earned anywhere else. If that’s their decision, well, it’s their game, but its not the game I bought, and not a game I’m interested in supporting.
There are plenty of rewards exclusive to open world pve that can’t be earned by raiding.
As with most things, that easily swings back at the Dungeon Master.
According to this logic, every random Goblin Minion has to drop something as he has a sword, club, some kind of armor and maybe a handfull of stolen coins.
Make it that every trash mob drops appropriate equipment he displays wearing (Bandits and Centaurs have weapons, Dredge have Armor etc etc), and the analogy you made is indeed hard to deconstruct. But sadly, they don´t follow this rule to save the economy, so it´s a little bit of cherry picking.
it would also stand when there is only ONE item ever to obtain, because the ONE wizard has only ONE Item. But again, everybody that does the content gets a copy of the supposed regular item, requiring you to suspend your urge to call fool on the system.
The central question here is, is GW2 more of a street full of common people or the olympic village? And will the regular people pay by buying the game to watch the athletes play the game?
Honestly? Yes i believe they would and that , that’s somewhat where games are going, it’s not what I want them to do completely but if the recent successes with LoL,DOTA, CS:GO, heck even to a lesser degree the GW2 PvP championships.
(I know we’re discussing exclusive rewards here but this is encompassed into my overall view on MMO’s)
I also believe that part of the selling point in an MMO is that it’s your chance to try and be an actual hero, not the crappy everyone’s a hero style single player version and part of a living world.
If you kill a dragon in a single-player game, it was designed so that you can and every other player can.
In an MMO, that dragon can be tuned so that only maybe 1% of the players can actually do it, or that dragon can die and no one else can even try.Then you have a story to tell and a reward to show, you’re unique and out of the faceless masses.
That’s what sold ME on mmo’s. A player might not be the hero, the game could gut punch them right off the bat and they never amount to anything, but that chance? I believe players will play for that chance.
I know it’s only virtual and a bit of fun, but that’s the experience I want it to be while im in it.
I see the version without any unique reward/once off events , all inclusive as keeping all the bad parts of an MMO (excessive grind, poorer quality story, lower quality of gameplay, unfocused content) while losing the only parts that make it an experience.
If everyone ends up at the same endpoint with the same pool of rewards that’s not a living world, that’s a generic single player game experience.
Even the smallest inequalities make stories, take the Royal guard outfit for example, in two years time you’ll be able to remissness about the time period it was released and how shortly after there was this once off mordrem invasion event.
My guildies asked about my spinal blades the other day, and I got to recount to them the story of the battle for lions arch. If that content was still in the game it would no longer be that story or an experience it would be yet another “feel like running battle for LA today?, nah the rewards suck after the first two weeks”.
A year from now after more events have occurred or they’ve made it into high end content for whatever area of the game they’re good at, they’ll have their own stories to tell, their own rewards to show and have had a unique experience.
[RoF] and [BL] guild leader
11x level 80’s 80+ Titles 2600+ skins , still a long way to go.
11x level 80’s 80+ Titles 2600+ skins , still a long way to go.
We´ll see then how many casuals are really at home in GW2. I am really anxious to see how this plays out. I even understand your point. I guess I probably just never was the kind of guy that wanted to be the first under equals and found that living story 1 was giving me what i was looking for, a dynamic world that made me part of the battle group that brought Scarlet down.
A raid is, from a point of lore, as uninteresting to me as a dungeon after I have seen it´s cinematics once. The story always stays the same, no progression for me there, just a number of items to collect. Fractals kind of have a privileged status for me there as they are only random islands from the mists and let you have a glimpse in the past.
I think the examples people are giving are hardly on-topic anymore…
The best example on the topic is every other RPG ever released so far in gaming history, that doesn’t use a 100% pure random loot system. In every such RPG ever created, items are rewards behind content, very very specific content. Usually the hardest dungeons and the hardest bosses also have the best possible loot. That’s how every RPG ever works, video game or even not video games, like p&p RPGs.
The game masters make dungeons, and they add dungeon-appropriate rewards for them. Usually in a lot of RPGs, since they are single player, and not meant to be repeated, you get the exact item the boss character is using. You want that Staff of Awesome Time Bending that is held by a powerful Lich Wizard? Well you will probably have to go and kill him, or infiltrate his castle and steal it. Farming his minions that plague the countryside won’t reward you the item no matter how many you kill.
You want that epic gemstone that is part of a Dragon’s hoard? You will probably have to infiltrate said hoard and either kill the Dragon or find another way to get it, still doing the actual content. Farming the random goblin army minions won’t give you the item.
Yet in MMORPGs players have this weird idea of everything being available to every type of gameplay although this thing doesn’t exist in any other RPG, so why should it in MMORPGs?
Because “Play your way” was one of the marketing promises? The ability to do what you ENJOY, not what was REQUIRED, and to be able to enjoy the top-tier rewards. Because for 3 years, we haven’t had raids with exclusive rewards, and quite honestly only a very small group of people even wanted them?
Now, ANet has drawn a line in the sand: raiders are more important than non-raiders, and get exclusive rewards that can’t be earned anywhere else. If that’s their decision, well, it’s their game, but its not the game I bought, and not a game I’m interested in supporting.
There are plenty of rewards exclusive to open world pve that can’t be earned by raiding.
^^ And they are behind excessive RNG and Grind too which makes them un-obtainable for players who want to replace RNG and Grind with “challenge”
Perhaps. I never raised Hall of Monuments as an issue, but there is an argument to be made for keeping those rewards exclusive. Still, those rewards were in place at launch, people knew what they were getting into.
Even before the game launched, exclusive rewards were already an established norm in the game. A precedent was set even before the game was released. If you bought Guild Wars 2 knowing how the Hall of Monuments and its rewards worked, then you knew that exclusive rewards were not only possible, but probable. Thus, you should have “known what you’re getting into” as you would say it. If you did not know, ignorance is your own fault.
There are plenty of rewards exclusive to open world pve that can’t be earned by raiding. [/quote]
But one has more barriers to entry than others.
There are plenty of rewards exclusive to open world pve that can’t be earned by raiding.
But one has more barriers to entry than others.
So you are fine with the concept and just haggling over price? Well Raiding is the price – pay or don’t pay – its up to you.
As with most things, that easily swings back at the Dungeon Master.
According to this logic, every random Goblin Minion has to drop something as he has a sword, club, some kind of armor and maybe a handfull of stolen coins.Make it that every trash mob drops appropriate equipment he displays wearing (Bandits and Centaurs have weapons, Dredge have Armor etc etc), and the analogy you made is indeed hard to deconstruct. But sadly, they don´t follow this rule to save the economy, so it´s a little bit of cherry picking.
I don’t know about your dungeon master, but at the higher level of play those goblin minions have regular items that aren’t worth anything if you sell them anyway. So it doesn’t matter in the end as far as gold is concerned. If all mobs dropped gear equal to a white item worth 2 copper it wouldn’t make much difference to the economy. They save us the trouble and give random drops instead, every 3-4 mobs you get the equal value of 3-4 mobs in one drop (or more) so it evens out.
it would also stand when there is only ONE item ever to obtain, because the ONE wizard has only ONE Item. But again, everybody that does the content gets a copy of the supposed regular item, requiring you to suspend your urge to call fool on the system.
That doesn’t make a difference either. I will kill the one wizard and get his item. You will kill the same wizard and get the same item. I can kill him in multiple playthroughs and get the item multiple times. Every player who plays the content will also get the item. Much like in an MMORPG. But the fact still stand, to get the item of the boss, you have to defeat the boss, it’s really simple.
In both cases, the argument of reward being behind specific content in all RPGs out there is still relevant.
A raid is, from a point of lore, as uninteresting to me as a dungeon after I have seen it´s cinematics once. The story always stays the same, no progression for me there, just a number of items to collect. Fractals kind of have a privileged status for me there as they are only random islands from the mists and let you have a glimpse in the past.
And doing SW, DT, or any of the LS1 dynamic events more than once was so much more interesting to you from a lore point? Doing the Battle for LA more than once didn’t make any lore sense, killing the Triple Trouble Wurm, destroying the Marionette, cleansing the Tower of Nightmares, fighting an invasion by Scarlet’s minions etc was so much better to you than dungeons?
There are plenty of rewards exclusive to open world pve that can’t be earned by raiding.
But one has more barriers to entry than others.
So you are fine with the concept and just haggling over price? Well Raiding is the price – pay or don’t pay – its up to you.
My first version of this was too harsh, but one of the advantages of the game to many professionals is that you can play it on an open schedule and in relatively small bites.
I’m happy to prioritize myself away from raids (I hate the way it seems to draw wamma be alpha-males), but I have empathy with the people who get annoyed that the ability to block off a few hours on a weekly schedule is the primary qualifier for special rewards.