Guild Wars 2

I vote that it should. You can’t have everything in the game if you don’t do all the content in it.

Why not? That’s a purely arbitrary choice on your part, and I don’t see any reason for it. Aside from items placed in there as a “try this mode” reward, there’s no justification for preventing players from earning every other item through whatever mode they enjoy playing.

You will be surprised at how many players say they hate PVP but after a few PVP games in good guild teams they become PVPers. It’s the same with raiding and any type of content, saying before hand you don’t like content is sad.

Why does this keep coming up? Yes, there is value in a “try it” reward, but again, “try it” rewards should be short and sweet, something you can earn through a couple hours of casual engagement with that mode, just to see whether you like it or not, but after that, there is no value to the “try it” principle, you’ve tried it and made up your mind, and the developers should respect that choice and allow you to be on your way.

As an example of ANet failing to respect that choice, their more recent Daily rotation changes, which made it so that you had to complete 3:4 PvE objectives, many of which are massively inconvenient, like running fractals, or running events in a zone that has horrible event schedules, or running a world boss that only spawns during times you do not play. This means that on many days, I can’t get a full three daily PvE challenges out of the way, and have to dip into the PvP challenges.

So because of this, I’ve ended up doing a few dozen rounds of PvP. I’m not terrible, I’m sometimes the best on my team, though I know I’m nowhere near the serious players, but I also know that I hate PvP. Just hate it. Knew that going in, knew that after one game, knew that after ten games, knew that after getting my third piece of Glorious armor.

I’ve hated PvP since Everquest, I’ve hated it in every game since, and done my very best to stay as far away from it as any game allows me. I have absolutely no interest in competitive play, I know that, and I appreciate games that respect that. If the game did a better job of respecting my choices, then it wouldn’t force me into PvP matches to get around the limited options in the PvE rotation. At least PvP matches only take about ten to fifteen minutes, if they were hour+ raids I would hate them even more.

Other people like PvP, and that’s fine, so long as PvP does as little to mess with me as possible. GW2 launched about as close to perfect on that regard as possible, PvP didn’t interact with PvE AT ALL. Then they added the PvP reward tracks and allowed all that cool loot that PvPers had accumulated to flood into the core game, throwing around weapons that would take a fortune to acquire through PvE methods. They used to have the PvE and PvP dailies separate, but then they made them shared, and made it so that it’s difficult to max out through PvE alone on most days. They frequently make balance changes that make no sense from a PvE perspective, but they insist on doing it anyways because players were abusing some technique in PvP, or because players just don’t like it if thieves are ever able to kill them in any way. I put up with that all. For now, I just don’t want to see raiding have a similar impact on the rest of the game.

Actually you do. Players with higher skill want recognition for it, I know if you’ve never tried to better yourself you won’t get it, if you are always happy to be mediocre and average, but if you ever try to do that something more in a game, you will understand.

I better myself constantly, I just don’t need to pretend that other players are fawning over me. If that’s something that’s actually important, they should pull a .Hack on the game, and just generate client-side NPCs that look like random player characters, and they’ll all bow and scrape as you walk by, so the narcissists can get their jollies without ruining it for the rest of us.

There is a reason most video game expansions (MMORPG or not) are usually harder than their original games. The developers AND the players have learned how to play, the developers found out how to make better encounters, and the players how to beat them. New players would still have to go through all the old content like the veterans.

That’s not really true. Plenty of expansions and sequels actually dial things back a bit, if players complain that the core game was too difficult. They might add new techniques, new opportunities, but the difficulty tends to react to the players wishes, not just arbitrarily increase in difficulty.

No player choice you never be respected because “rewards” are not a player choice. That’s fundamental video game design 101. There no such thing as “try” content then get rewards. Rewards are there so players MASTER that content not merely try it.

No. Mastery should be for those who want mastery, not for those who want an irrelevant reward. No, if you want players to try a new mode, you say “here, play this mode for about an hour, see how you like it, you get a free hat.” Then people do. They play an hour, they get their free hat. If it turns out they liked it, great! They’ll keep playing, because they can use that mode to earn the rewards they want. If they don’t like the mode, also great! They can leave and go have fun doing something else, and not be missing out on any cool rewards.

You should have to work hard to earn the rewards you want, but you should be able to work hard in the mode of your own choosing.

And there is one more little thing. IF (and that’s a huge IF) sometime in the future they want to make the raid rewards non-exclusive they can do it. However, adding multiple paths to those rewards from day 1 is a horrible move, if only because the devs themselves don’t have any idea about how hard their raid is going to be. Once they have better data on how hard it is, they can either just nerfing it or allow players to earn the legendary armor precursors through other types of content.

Maybe that is the best strategic way to handle it, I just hope they will be more agile about this than they’ve been in the past, and are ready to pounce at a moment’s notice to correct issues. This recent Mordrem invasion is a key example of not being agile enough.

In any case, raid exclusives are here to stay no matter what a vocal minority on these forums is saying. That’s set in stone, and probably every future raid will have exclusive content too.

You have absolutely no basis for this claim.

You say that, but I’m 100% certain that subconsciously you definitely do give recognition to people with impressive titles, impressive-looking armors, rare weapons or rare minis.

If you see someone with a full set of fractal weapons and the fractal backpiece, you’ll definitely notice it. You might not think “wow, that player is so good”, but you’ll definitely think “huh, that guy has a ton of fractal skins, he probably plays fractals a lot”.

Yeah, keep that dream alive. . .

Torolan.5816:

That is exactly the point, I most of the time don´t want it, and if I do, I put effort into it. If you already have it, good for you, but why should I recognize you for this instead of recognizing you as a person?

I think there is a misunderstanding. That comment I made was a response in wether getting better for your own sake is enough or not. So, defeating hard content should be rewarding because it’s hard content alone or it should also come as some extra recognition. In this case recognition = exclusive reward that shows you finished it.

I do not advocate people going around LA getting on tall places and start yelling how they have the best shinnies.

LucosTheDutch.4819:

Torolan.5816:

maddoctor.2738:

Actually you do. Players with higher skill want recognition for it, I know if you’ve never tried to better yourself you won’t get it, if you are always happy to be mediocre and average, but if you ever try to do that something more in a game, you will understand.

They may want it, but they will never get it. At least not from people like me. Pretty surprised about this argument to be honest.

I am actually the target of good natured puns from my fellow guildies with my heavy ascended armor because it looks a little like the bottom of sexy Flanders in that iron trouser, and up until the introduction of legendary armor this is the best armor available.
I also have any fractal success since ages. You won´t catch me parading this around when new people come in to play a fractal with me. I don´t care if they know about that, and they should not care too.

If people are so easily influencable that you can actually impress them with your shiny fractal back, legendary or similar rare item, I know they have a long way to go and smile at their efforts.

You say that, but I’m 100% certain that subconsciously you definitely do give recognition to people with impressive titles, impressive-looking armors, rare weapons or rare minis.

If you see someone with a full set of fractal weapons and the fractal backpiece, you’ll definitely notice it. You might not think “wow, that player is so good”, but you’ll definitely think “huh, that guy has a ton of fractal skins, he probably plays fractals a lot”.

Of course, nothing in GW2 is actually hard to get, so this (subconscious) sensation of seeing someone with impressive gear is not very present right now in GW2. Which is one of the issues of GW2. Skilled and dedicated players want recognition for their achievements but aren’t getting any because there is no way for them to show off their accomplishments other than maybe a title and a finisher. On top of that there really isn’t any hard content in GW2 right now, so there isn’t really much to brag about anyway.
So you managed to beat fractals at lvl 50? Big whoop. Anyone who isn’t senile can do that with a little practice and a proper team-comp.
Oh you managed to get to rank 80 in PvP? Big whoop, anyone who spends enough time in PvP can do that, even people who lose most of their matches.
Oh your server is the number 1 in WvW? Yeah, tell me more about how you outnumbered and outzerged the other servers.
Oh you have a legendary and full set of ascended armor? Good job, I’m sure mindlessly grinding your butt off was hella fun. Or did you use your credit-card?

It is a known fact that GW2 is not a very rewarding game and does not encourage people to try new things or challenge themselves. This would be fine if GW2 was an sandbox MMO, but it isn’t. It’s a themepark MMO, but it doesn’t have any interesting attractions for those who seek a real thrill. Right now GW2 is more like a kindergarten playground, not a proper themepark.

But I digress. Luckily, it does seem like GW2 is taking a step in the right direction with HoT. Challenging raids and exclusive rewards does sound like fun to me. It remains to be seen however how challenging these “challenging raids” really are.

I, as you and every other human on planet earth subconsciously saves everything that happens to us. So if a title, value or deed does not sit very high in my personal list of priorities, it will quickly sink in the list of things I actively remember. My claim to fame and recognition by strangers has severely weakened over time, so it sits really low on my list of priorities.

If you only mean by recognition that I give these guys a friendly nod and a good job, then yes, I do this of course.

Ohoni.6057:

You say that, but I’m 100% certain that subconsciously you definitely do give recognition to people with impressive titles, impressive-looking armors, rare weapons or rare minis.

If you see someone with a full set of fractal weapons and the fractal backpiece, you’ll definitely notice it. You might not think “wow, that player is so good”, but you’ll definitely think “huh, that guy has a ton of fractal skins, he probably plays fractals a lot”.

Yeah, keep that dream alive. . .

You’re the one living in a dream world buddy.

But if you want I’ll screencap all the whispers I get from people complimenting me on my character’s looks and/or asking me where I got the gear/skins/dyes that I’m wearing, and then post them here on the forum.

I vote that it should. You can’t have everything in the game if you don’t do all the content in it.

Why not? That’s a purely arbitrary choice on your part, and I don’t see any reason for it. Aside from items placed in there as a “try this mode” reward, there’s no justification for preventing players from earning every other item through whatever mode they enjoy playing.

It’s called basic video game reward design.

That’s not really true. Plenty of expansions and sequels actually dial things back a bit, if players complain that the core game was too difficult. They might add new techniques, new opportunities, but the difficulty tends to react to the players wishes, not just arbitrarily increase in difficulty.

Heh that’s the pipe dream here.

No. Mastery should be for those who want mastery, not for those who want an irrelevant reward. No, if you want players to try a new mode, you say “here, play this mode for about an hour, see how you like it, you get a free hat.” Then people do. They play an hour, they get their free hat. If it turns out they liked it, great! They’ll keep playing, because they can use that mode to earn the rewards they want. If they don’t like the mode, also great! They can leave and go have fun doing something else, and not be missing out on any cool rewards.

Nope. You still miss basic video game reward design. You saying so doesn’t mean that’s how it works in the industry as a whole.

Maybe that is the best strategic way to handle it, I just hope they will be more agile about this than they’ve been in the past, and are ready to pounce at a moment’s notice to correct issues. This recent Mordrem invasion is a key example of not being agile enough.

Sorry the recent Mordrem invasion is the worst content Anet has ever released thus far. Personally I don’t care at all about it it’s the worst of the worst.

In any case, raid exclusives are here to stay no matter what a vocal minority on these forums is saying. That’s set in stone, and probably every future raid will have exclusive content too.

You have absolutely no basis for this claim.

Which part?

http://heartofthorns.guildwars2.com/game/raids

Special note:
As part of rewards for raids, we’re introducing legendary armor. Conquering raid content will earn you the pieces to build legendary precursor armors, which can be forged into legendary heavy, medium, and light armor sets.

I have enough basis for it because that’s what they announced. As for what future raids might have it will all depend how the current ones will do, so it’s impossible to say.

Torolan.5816:

If you only mean by recognition that I give these guys a friendly nod and a good job, then yes, I do this of course.

Yes, that’s all I meant.

Because really, that’s all you can expect anyway in a casual game like GW2 where everything is so kitten easy.

Torolan.5816:

If you only mean by recognition that I give these guys a friendly nod and a good job, then yes, I do this of course.

When the game was new, watching someone with Sunrise was something good. After they put legendary weapons on the tp their “value” dropped and nobody cared. The most commonly used term was “he got it with a credit card”. Then legendary weapons became super common (regardless of adding them on the tp, that was bound to happen anyway) and even though Sunrise might be considered “pretty” by someone, it lost its value because it’s so common place.

A “rare” item doesn’t always mean an item that is hard to get, it can also mean an item that is in reality rare because few copies of it exist. See how owners of the Ghastly Grinning Shield respond to any post that request Anet to put them back in the game. Making the raid rewards exclusive behind hard content means a great deal of the playerbase won’t get them, therefore they will be this type of “rare”

An interesting bit on our “topic” of rewards from a paper called “Game Reward Systems: Gaming Experiences and Social Meanings”

In consideration of how rewards, reward mechanisms, and players interact, we believe
there are at least four reward system attributes that can be used to analyze their influences on different kinds of players (Bartle, 1996; Csikszentmihalyi, 1990; Ducheneaut & Moore, 2004; Yee, 2007).

• The first is social value, which is suitable for either comparison purposes or social interactions.
  <skip for space>
  Virtual items are convenient for comparisons among players— especially in MMORPGs, where players can show off their rare pieces of equipment as proof of their advanced skills. Avatars wearing hard-to-get but well-known items always draw attention, and funny virtual items may be displayed during social occasions.
  <skip for space>
  We have observed that players are more likely to compare their game-related accomplishments or luck rather than resources, which can be purchased for virtual or real-world currency. The ease of resource availability has been criticized as breaking the atmosphere of a closed play world, also known as Huizinga’s “magic circle” (Lin et al., 2007).

Which is easily viewable how much the legendary weapon value dropped when they made them available on the TP. In a similar way, that’s why many items of GW2 or black lion weapons also hold no value, because they are available for gold or cash. In a way even a token system (because it’s currency) also reduces the value of items. GW2 as a game NEEDS more rewards behind content, raids or not.

• The second attribute is how rewards affect gameplay, ranging from no direct effect, to helping advance a game, to providing new content.

Each type attracts different kinds of players. Using Bartle’s taxonomy as an example, achievers and killers focus on making personal progress, developing their avatars, challenging strong enemies, and defeating other players. These kinds of players are the least interested in visual rewards and minigames, and the most interested in accumulating treasure, weapons, titles, and other evidence of their advanced skills and accomplishments.

Achievers and killers have little to do in GW, and that’s what raids aim to do, provide something for achievers and killers to do. Those types don’t care how pretty an item looks, only if it’s reward from hard content.

• The third attribute is the suitability of a reward for collection and review, with players
  having motivations that range from building a sense of accomplishment to preserving
  game memories (Formanek, 1994). Obviously, items that require a lot of effort have
  greater value as reminders of past experiences, or as representations of goal fulfillment.
  From a social point of view, collecting helps players recognize other players with similar
  interests when gathering in online forums or at real-world meetings. We have observed an especially strong interest in collecting achievement titles in games such as World of
  Warcraft and the Metal Gear Solid series. Their clearly structured reward systems
  facilitate comparisons, create a sense of collecting aesthetics, and strengthen feelings of
  completion and perfection (Danet & Katriel, 1989). For these reasons it is important that rewards be easy to present and review.

What easier way to present and review a reward if it’s an armor set?

• The fourth attribute is the time required to earn and/or receive a reward. Whereas realworld rewards may take years to emerge (e.g., job promotions), game rewards can be as instantaneous as a pop-up message (e.g., “Perfect!”), or as delayed as achieving a new level after days of repetitive monster killing. Game companies clearly put a lot of effort into planning this aspect of reward distribution in order to enhance positive gaming experiences. Properly timed rewards can help create senses of accomplishment and value, while poorly timed rewards can cause players to give up and move on to other games (Gee, 2007; Koster, 2005). Differences in individual willingness to accept delayed satisfaction increase the complexity of reward timing. The designers of games that use item reward systems must carefully limit the potential for player frustration. Also, in order to attract casual players, designers must carefully balance required player
  commitment with reward quality (Juul, 2010).

But if you want I’ll screencap all the whispers I get from people complimenting me on my character’s looks and/or asking me where I got the gear/skins/dyes that I’m wearing, and then post them here on the forum.

Oh who doesn’t? But when I get compliments, it’s on the way my outfit’s been put together, not that any particular bit is “fancy.”

Sorry the recent Mordrem invasion is the worst content Anet has ever released thus far. Personally I don’t care at all about it it’s the worst of the worst.

I know, that’s my point. It’s the worst, and yet they apparently can’t fix it. If raids turn out to be the new worst, I expect them to be ready to fix it quickly, or at the very least come out and say how they intend to fix it, something which in the past they have not done either.

As part of rewards for raids, we’re introducing legendary armor. Conquering raid content will earn you the pieces to build legendary precursor armors, which can be forged into legendary heavy, medium, and light armor sets.

I have enough basis for it because that’s what they announced. As for what future raids might have it will all depend how the current ones will do, so it’s impossible to say.

And yet your claim was not about what they intend to do right now, your claim was about what they would be doing forever, which nobody knows, including them. I grant you that unless there was some massive loophole somewhere, that when they announced raids they fully intended for raids to have exclusive loot. I think it’s also fair to say that HoT will likely launch in that state. However, I think it’s impossible to make assumptions about where the raids will be in three, six, twelve months from now. Just because they launch with Legendary Armor somehow intrinsically tied to raiding, doesn’t mean it needs to stay that way. If there is enough community interest in seeing that changed, then they can and should change it. It’s quite possible that in six months time that stuff will be available through alternate means, even if that’s not at all the current plan.

A “rare” item doesn’t always mean an item that is hard to get, it can also mean an item that is in reality rare because few copies of it exist. See how owners of the Ghastly Grinning Shield respond to any post that request Anet to put them back in the game. Making the raid rewards exclusive behind hard content means a great deal of the playerbase won’t get them, therefore they will be this type of “rare”

I currently have a GreatChainsaw skin sitting in my inventory. I’d be willing to give it away if it meant opening up Legendary Raid armor for all players of the other game modes. This is generally a good community, don’t try to project selfish motivations on people.

I know, that’s my point. It’s the worst, and yet they apparently can’t fix it. If raids turn out to be the new worst, I expect them to be ready to fix it quickly, or at the very least come out and say how they intend to fix it, something which in the past they have not done either.

I suspect every player, no matter if they are raiders or not will complain if they don’t fix their raids. If they get the dungeon “treatment” (see: complete neglect) then yes raids will fail horribly.

And yet your claim was not about what they intend to do right now, your claim was about what they would be doing forever, which nobody knows, including them.

I said “probably” about the “forever” part. If raids go well then they will probably not change their reward structure and any developer worth their name would count on their content being good and successful.

Which is easily viewable how much the legendary weapon value dropped when they made them available on the TP. In a similar way, that’s why many items of GW2 or black lion weapons also hold no value, because they are available for gold or cash.

And yet, the cost of Legendary Weapons on the TP have only increased over time, and Black Lion weapons are some of the most expensive items other than the Legendary ones. The only items that are even more expensive are those that are literally impossible to get anymore. You can say that these items have reduced value to you, but they clearly do not to the community.

The designers of games that use item reward systems must carefully limit the potential for player frustration. Also, in order to attract casual players, designers must carefully balance required player
commitment with reward quality (Juul, 2010).

Good point.

maddoctor.2738:

An interesting bit on our “topic” of rewards from a paper called “Game Reward Systems: Gaming Experiences and Social Meanings”

-snip-

Yeah I linked that paper on page 31 of this thread. It’s a paper I had to peer-review as part of my graduation in Game Development & Architecture. It’s a good paper that proves our point. Of course I don’t expect Ohoni to listen though. He made up his mind, no amount of evidence to the contrary will change his mind. Hence I really think we should drop this discussion about rewards and actually get back on topic.

Ohoni.6057:

The designers of games that use item reward systems must carefully limit the potential for player frustration. Also, in order to attract casual players, designers must carefully balance required player
commitment with reward quality (Juul, 2010).

Good point.

Most certainly a good point indeed. Sadly your idea of what would be a good balance is not that good.

Ohoni.6057:

Which is easily viewable how much the legendary weapon value dropped when they made them available on the TP. In a similar way, that’s why many items of GW2 or black lion weapons also hold no value, because they are available for gold or cash.

And yet, the cost of Legendary Weapons on the TP have only increased over time, and Black Lion weapons are some of the most expensive items other than the Legendary ones. The only items that are even more expensive are those that are literally impossible to get anymore. You can say that these items have reduced value to you, but they clearly do not to the community.

Gold doesn’t give “value” to an item, also see: market manipulation. Also see: inflation. For months and months we’ve had nothing to spend gold on, yet prices aren’t skyrocketing. The “value” of an item for many player types isn’t measured in how much gold it requires to get, but how you get it.

The designers of games that use item reward systems must carefully limit the potential for player frustration. Also, in order to attract casual players, designers must carefully balance required player commitment with reward quality (Juul, 2010).

Good point.

Of course it’s a good point but doesn’t mean “getting every reward” though

You´re right, but how does this alter my level of recognition for a raid only reward?
It is basically the same reasoning for me that LucosTheDutch already stated so fittingly:
Oh, you managed to complete the raid. Big whoop, anyone who has a guild of like minded friends and a lot of time for tries/guides can do it.
Of course this would come first on the things he listed in terms of difficulty, but the reasoning stays the same.I would not even agree with the idea that anybody(slow, old, young, disabled etc etc) can do it, but let´s just assume it for the sake of a general feeling.

I also saw how people reacted on the electro blue gift for 3 year old players toons, and it was actually hillarious to watch how people clutched to a claim for something that had been invalidated over night. This is the kind of false fame I was writing about, with a healthy dose of entitlement and a pinch of I waited too long and screwed up feeling.

And for the ghastly grinning shield, a friendly nod and a smile because I remember people falling all over each over in an attempt to get one. Yes, it is rare, and people are glad if they somehow get it. Wasn´t it a RNG item? I don´t really remember much from it, only when a lucky guy posted it in the map chat then and when.
And again:
Oh, you managed to get the ghastly grinning Shield. Big whoop, anyone who was at the halloween event 2013 could have dropped it.

As long as Anet does not list people or guilds in meaningful categories(not pvp tables with private servers or something like that) and rankings, any claim of fame is weak at best in GW2 for me personally.

Edit: You can also prove that you were at the Halloween event if you have the witch outfit. Was available for corn or something, and shows you being there as good as the ghastly grinning shield.

Torolan.5816:

<snip>

You, and many others that post in this thread, should read more about the science of video game design. It includes video game reward systems too. It’s a topic that has been discussed and being researched a lot over the years.

Also, you should read more about player types. Let’s use one widely used (but somewhat flawed) method of splitting player types, the Bartle method. It splits players in 4 types, Achiever, Explorer, Socializer and Killer.

Achiever:
Also known as “Diamonds”, these are players who prefer to gain “points”, levels, equipment and other concrete measurements of succeeding in a game. They will go to great lengths to achieve rewards that confer them little or no gameplay benefit simply for the prestige of having it.

In other words, they don’t care how pretty legendary armor might look, but that it is behind hard content. It doesn’t matter how pretty the rewards are, but how you get them. Because the game uses achievement points it might look like chievers have a lot to do in GW2, but in reality they do not. There are very few prestige items that are worth something based on content and that’s where raids come in.

Explorer:
Explorers, dubbed “Spades” for their tendency to dig around, are players who prefer discovering areas, creating maps and learning about hidden places. They often feel restricted when a game expects them to move on within a certain time, as that does not allow them to look around at their own pace. They find great joy in discovering an unknown glitch or a hidden easter egg.

They have lots to do in GW2, after all it’s a game that was supposed to be great for explorers. There are a lot of things to find in the game, vistas, mini games, puzzles. Sadly, after 3 years the amount of new things for explorers are very few, but that’s why we get a big expansion with new areas. And judging by the BWE, exploration will be highly rewarding in the new maps.

Socializers:
There are a multitude of gamers who choose to play games for the social aspect, rather than the actual game itself. These players are known as Socializers or “Hearts”. They gain the most enjoyment from a game by interacting with other players, and on some occasions, computer-controlled characters with personality. The game is merely a tool they use to meet others in-game or outside of it.

The game has a lot of potential for socializers, although I’ll admit, the tools for roleplayers are rather limited.

Killer:
“Clubs” is a very accurate moniker for what the Killer likes to do. They thrive on competition with other players, and prefer fighting them to scripted computer-controlled opponents.

It might look like Killers do not exist in GW2 because it has very limited open pvp (only in WvW), however a Killer is also a TP manipulator, that plays the TP to “defeat” other players in a game of bids. With the GW2 economy based largely on gold, Killers of this type have too much to do. The PVP Killers will either stalk players in WvW or try to compete at the higher levels of structured PVP

maddoctor.2738:

Torolan.5816:

<snip>

You, and many others that post in this thread, should read more about the science of video game design. It includes video game reward systems too. It’s a topic that has been discussed and being researched a lot over the years.

Also, you should read more about player types. Let’s use one widely used (but somewhat flawed) method of splitting player types, the Bartle method. It splits players in 4 types, Achiever, Explorer, Socializer and Killer.

Achiever:
Also known as “Diamonds”, these are players who prefer to gain “points”, levels, equipment and other concrete measurements of succeeding in a game. They will go to great lengths to achieve rewards that confer them little or no gameplay benefit simply for the prestige of having it.

In other words, they don’t care how pretty legendary armor might look, but that it is behind hard content. It doesn’t matter how pretty the rewards are, but how you get them. Because the game uses achievement points it might look like chievers have a lot to do in GW2, but in reality they do not. There are very few prestige items that are worth something based on content and that’s where raids come in.

Explorer:
Explorers, dubbed “Spades” for their tendency to dig around, are players who prefer discovering areas, creating maps and learning about hidden places. They often feel restricted when a game expects them to move on within a certain time, as that does not allow them to look around at their own pace. They find great joy in discovering an unknown glitch or a hidden easter egg.

They have lots to do in GW2, after all it’s a game that was supposed to be great for explorers. There are a lot of things to find in the game, vistas, mini games, puzzles. Sadly, after 3 years the amount of new things for explorers are very few, but that’s why we get a big expansion with new areas. And judging by the BWE, exploration will be highly rewarding in the new maps.

Socializers:
There are a multitude of gamers who choose to play games for the social aspect, rather than the actual game itself. These players are known as Socializers or “Hearts”. They gain the most enjoyment from a game by interacting with other players, and on some occasions, computer-controlled characters with personality. The game is merely a tool they use to meet others in-game or outside of it.

The game has a lot of potential for socializers, although I’ll admit, the tools for roleplayers are rather limited.

Killer:
“Clubs” is a very accurate moniker for what the Killer likes to do. They thrive on competition with other players, and prefer fighting them to scripted computer-controlled opponents.

It might look like Killers do not exist in GW2 because it has very limited open pvp (only in WvW), however a Killer is also a TP manipulator, that plays the TP to “defeat” other players in a game of bids. With the GW2 economy based largely on gold, Killers of this type have too much to do. The PVP Killers will either stalk players in WvW or try to compete at the higher levels of structured PVP

Aye. I remember this from school. Good stuff. Largely accurate.

As a gamer, I mostly classify as a combination between “achiever” and “killer”. I like exploration too though. I don’t much care for the social part of MMOs except for finding skilled and like-minded players who I can fight or team up with.

As you can imagine, I spend 99% of my time in PvP these days. The rest of GW2 does not interest me anymore. I’m not saying GW2 is a bad game, it’s just stagnant. After 3 years there is barely any new noteworthy content, nothing in GW2’s PvE proves a challenge for me anymore, I’ve beaten everything, explored everything and crafted every legendary I care about.

PvP is all that keeps my interest right now and I know many like-minded people who feel the same way. I’m in 2 very large guilds and the consensus seems to be the same in both guilds: “we’re bored, there’s nothing to do anymore in GW2”.

That is why I’m so excited for raids in HoT. If HoT was just more of the same casual content, it would probably keep me busy for a month or two and then I’d be bored again. With raids, if they are actually challenging, the “achiever” and “killer” inside me will finally have something to strife for in GW2 (being among the first to beat these difficult raids and getting my exclusive legendary armor in the progress).

This is indeed interesting. I find myself somewhere between achiever(I collect recipes I´ll never use again, but the difficulty of the content is not important for me) and socializer, so this is probably not a you´re either X or Y type of characterization, like most of these attempts of categorization. I know several Killers that are also Socializers and at least a little bit of an achiever. I even know explorers who have socializer habits, but I guess this is pretty rare.

I would now take a guess and say that you are an achiever and a socializer(you could be also a killer and an explorer, but I could not verify that because we talk only in this subform) too, but with a different weighting. So different that we often disagree on this or that, even when we like the same kind of stuff.

So the big question probably is:
Are there enough Achievers in GW2 that can surround themselves with other Achievers, Socializers and Killers to make raids sustainable in the long run, or not?
I guess it is pretty easy to recruit other achievers, reasonably easy to get socializers but very hard to get killers and explorers.

Torolan.5816:

So the big question probably is:
Are there enough Achievers in GW2 that can surround themselves with other Achievers, Socializers and Killers to make raids sustainable in the long run, or not?
I guess it is pretty easy to recruit other achievers, reasonably easy to get socializers but very hard to get killers and explorers.

A raid can attract all character types. An achiever is the obvious target, but a socializer might come along for the opportunity to be social with other people, not in a pug group maybe, but I’ve seen guilds creating ultra strong bonds when they tackle hard content. On the other hand I’ve seen guilds disolve and fail if they have nothing serious to do as guilds. Friendships forged in the heat of “battle” can last very long. An explorer will be attracted to a raid to actually explore the area. Overcoming technical challenges might also apply to an explorer type, or finding hidden areas and easter eggs inside the raid (like the easter egg in SE story mode for example). Killers will be the least interested (if at all) in raids.

Because the game currently offers very little for Achievers it’s very hard to identify how many there are in the game. Once the raids are released we will have a more clear view of it and find out how many there are in the game.

LucosTheDutch.4819:

There are only 4 ways of creating scarcity:

1) Putting it behind challenging content.

2) Putting it behind a huge grind wall.

3) Putting it behind insane RNG.

4) Making the item available for only a very limited time.

Now which one of those 4 options do you think most people find the most fun?

The one that lets them have the item, obviously. The skilled ones would pick 1, the farmers would pick 2, the lucky ones would pick 3, Malediktus would defend 4 to the death. Those that would not get the item would likely pick neither.

LucosTheDutch.4819:

Which one of those 4 options do you think most people find fair and acceptable?

Depends whether you ask about “fair” or “acceptable”. Technically the most fair is 3, because everyone has an equal chance. It’s also not really acceptable, because that chance is way too low for most players’ tastes.

LucosTheDutch.4819:

I can tell you, the vast majority of players do find number 1 the most appealing options out of those four options.

Numbers, please? Or are you just guessing based on what you’d want to be an answer?

LucosTheDutch.4819:

Astralporing.1957:

LucosTheDutch.4819:

Ohoni.6057:

Raiding is more demanding than other content, but what about that makes it more entitled to superior rewards?

You already answered your own question. Because it’s more demanding, that’s why it should have superior rewards.

No, it doesn’t automatically follow. Remember, it’s only more demanding because raiders asked for it to be so. You are basically saying, that it should have superior rewards, because you’d like it to have superior rewards.

It being more demanding doesn’t make it objectively a superior type of content. You may attach some kind of worth to it, but it’s just your personal preference, nothing more.

That’s not how it works.

Challenging content and better rewards go hand in hand. You can’t have one without the other.

Without valuable rewards, the challenging content wouldn’t be worth playing.

Lol, that’s not how it is. Challenge is its own reward. In the real world there are many people working on improving themselves not because there’s a reward for it but just because it makes them feel better about themselves, or because it’s fun.

Just a signle example – there are people that climb mountains. In case of the highest peaks, that generally requires spending a lot of money and effort. It is also dangerous (you can actually die, and many of the top climbers do end their careers that way) There are no rewards for it whatsoever.

Are you saying, that this is something that doesn’t exist? Or maybe you are ignoring them, because you know people like that are worth way more respect that someone that won’t spend any effort unless he gets rewarded?

LucosTheDutch.4819:

A challenging itself might be fun, but getting wiped 100 times on a raid boss is not really fun if there isn’t a grand prize waiting for you at the end.

That just means that improving yourself is not what you are after and not what you find fun. You are not in it for challenge. “Challenge” (and i use quotes intentionally) for you is just a means to a different end.

LucosTheDutch.4819:

I want epic rewards, I want that grand, limited, exclusive prize. But I want to earn it. I want to be challenged for it.

Then what you want isn’t the challenge. What you’re really after is an excuse to get better loot.

Only, that excuse is fake. You want the difficulty bar to be low enought that you, personally will be able to pass, and yet high enough to stop others. And if you’ll qualify, it won’t be because you were that good. It would be because your voice was loud enough to place that bar below your abilities.

Moreover, it won’t be actual difficulty that will set a limit. If the content would be truly difficult, i bet that 90% of the would be raiders would not be able to pass it. The real cutout will lie with numbers and time required.

LucosTheDutch.4819:

When I get that grand prize, I want to feel that I got it because I earned it, because I managed to overcome a difficult challenge, because I managed to become among the top 10% best players of the game. I want to have that grand prize because I earned it and I want others to not have it because they didn’t earn it.

Why 10%? Why not 20%, or 5%, or 1%? Is it because you think you are within the top 10% but not within 5%?

LucosTheDutch.4819:

A lot of people feel this way.

I am aware of that. It is however the way of thinking we should work on eliminating, not promoting.

Ohoni.6057:

In the same way, there is no reason you are representative of a larger body of support either.

Eeeeeeh, I think your position there is a little less tenable. I certainly don’t have absolute proof of my numbers, but just based on the trends of what has and hasn’t worked for this game over the past three years, I think it’s far more reasonable to assume that most of the players in the game are not the hardcore raider types.

First of all i’m not even gonna react to the hot room thing, because it’s silly and the analogy isn’t even close to correct, try to discuss this like an adult will you.

People play GW2 for different reasons yes that is true, however your mistake is thinking people who like hardcore content only like this type of content. I myself love raiding in other mmo’s, yet i still love GW2 and i loved GW1. Liking whatever you like in GW2 now, does not in whatever reason exclude you from liking hardcore content. This illusion that all GW2 players fit into some kind of twisted mold needs to stop. GW2 is played by all kinds of people, and enjoyed by all kinds of people. You need to stop making up stuff, and claiming you have for some reason a good idea of what the playerbase wants, because you don’t. Neither do i for that matter, however i don’t claim to know.
We don’t even have the numbers of how many people do what content, and even then it would be hard to tell.
Again, i have no problem with your argument, and while i don’t agree with it, i respect the concept that you don’t want unique rewards. However, it is your opinion, and without actually asking around, you have no right to say most people would agree with you. I actually asked around, ingame, in all my guilds at primetime, about 30 people replied, none of them agreed with you. This is of course a very small sample size, but it’s better then making up stuff.

No, and I never said that they were, or that I cared whether they were or not. But they are wearing a skin I might like to have, and would not be able to have, and that is FAR worse than if they were just more powerful than me.

You do realise if stats would increase but skins would be available that the entire community would riot right? No powercreep is one of the biggest selling points in GW2, and i can’t believe you find skins more important. I think this makes it finally clear to me that you have absolutely no clue why people actually play GW2, in my opinion. I could be wrong of course, but i just asked in my guild again, 6 people were online, and i posted this comment of yours. 5 of them reacted, all saying things like “Wait what….” and “Oh hell no”.

Astralporing.1957:

LucosTheDutch.4819:

There are only 4 ways of creating scarcity:

1) Putting it behind challenging content.

2) Putting it behind a huge grind wall.

3) Putting it behind insane RNG.

4) Making the item available for only a very limited time.

Now which one of those 4 options do you think most people find the most fun?

The one that lets them have the item, obviously. The skilled ones would pick 1, the farmers would pick 2, the lucky ones would pick 3, Malediktus would defend 4 to the death. Those that would not get the item would likely pick neither.

LucosTheDutch.4819:

Which one of those 4 options do you think most people find fair and acceptable?

Depends whether you ask about “fair” or “acceptable”. Technically the most fair is 3, because everyone has an equal chance. It’s also not really acceptable, because that chance is way too low for most players’ tastes.

LucosTheDutch.4819:

I can tell you, the vast majority of players do find number 1 the most appealing options out of those four options.

Numbers, please? Or are you just guessing based on what you’d want to be an answer?

LucosTheDutch.4819:

Astralporing.1957:

LucosTheDutch.4819:

Ohoni.6057:

Raiding is more demanding than other content, but what about that makes it more entitled to superior rewards?

You already answered your own question. Because it’s more demanding, that’s why it should have superior rewards.

No, it doesn’t automatically follow. Remember, it’s only more demanding because raiders asked for it to be so. You are basically saying, that it should have superior rewards, because you’d like it to have superior rewards.

It being more demanding doesn’t make it objectively a superior type of content. You may attach some kind of worth to it, but it’s just your personal preference, nothing more.

That’s not how it works.

Challenging content and better rewards go hand in hand. You can’t have one without the other.

Without valuable rewards, the challenging content wouldn’t be worth playing.

Lol, that’s not how it is. Challenge is its own reward. In the real world there are many people working on improving themselves not because there’s a reward for it but just because it makes them feel better about themselves, or because it’s fun.

Just a signle example – there are people that climb mountains. In case of the highest peaks, that generally requires spending a lot of money and effort. It is also dangerous (you can actually die, and many of the top climbers do end their careers that way) There are no rewards for it whatsoever.

Are you saying, that this is something that doesn’t exist? Or maybe you are ignoring them, because you know people like that are worth way more respect that someone that won’t spend any effort unless he gets rewarded?

LucosTheDutch.4819:

A challenging itself might be fun, but getting wiped 100 times on a raid boss is not really fun if there isn’t a grand prize waiting for you at the end.

That just means that improving yourself is not what you are after and not what you find fun. You are not in it for challenge. “Challenge” (and i use quotes intentionally) for you is just a means to a different end.

LucosTheDutch.4819:

I want epic rewards, I want that grand, limited, exclusive prize. But I want to earn it. I want to be challenged for it.

Then what you want isn’t the challenge. What you’re really after is an excuse to get better loot.

Only, that excuse is fake. You want the difficulty bar to be low enought that you, personally will be able to pass, and yet high enough to stop others. And if you’ll qualify, it won’t be because you were that good. It would be because your voice was loud enough to place that bar below your abilities.

Moreover, it won’t be actual difficulty that will set a limit. If the content would be truly difficult, i bet that 90% of the would be raiders would not be able to pass it. The real cutout will lie with numbers and time required.

LucosTheDutch.4819:

When I get that grand prize, I want to feel that I got it because I earned it, because I managed to overcome a difficult challenge, because I managed to become among the top 10% best players of the game. I want to have that grand prize because I earned it and I want others to not have it because they didn’t earn it.

Why 10%? Why not 20%, or 5%, or 1%? Is it because you think you are within the top 10% but not within 5%?

LucosTheDutch.4819:

A lot of people feel this way.

I am aware of that. It is however the way of thinking we should work on eliminating, not promoting.

mountain climbers get a unique reward, an experience and view that most never see, which cannot be duplicated in any way.

that said, i really dont think mountain climbing is a good example of game design, in fact its probably a pretty poorly designed game.

Last time I checked this thread people tried to defend their point with books and movies. Now it is mountain climbing and golf.

phys.7689:

mountain climbers get a unique reward, an experience and view that most never see, which cannot be duplicated in any way.

that said, i really dont think mountain climbing is a good example of game design, in fact its probably a pretty poorly designed game.

Not to mention the climber could either leave a marker behind or take something back with them from the whole experience.

…Oh wait, that wouldn’t be fair, we need to make mountain climbing easier since not everyone is gaining that same reward since the task is impossible for some very capable people.

Anyone who dismisses effort as part of a formula for rewards should stop playing games that have this as part of their design or accept the fact that effort has always been fundamental to video game rewards since inception.

Imagine if Tetris were like this. There would be a checkbox for the normal game that would appropriately get harder and harder the higher score you got with the lovely fast falling blocks, and if you unchecked it the game would play out on the easiest, slowest falling blocks only difficulty and scaled up the score based on how much time you put into the game until like the normal game you maxed out the score. Of course the ‘leading scoreboard’ at the end would still be there, plug in your three initials and presto you got a high score! Everybody’s a winner!

I wonder if we would even like that game, or remember it.

That Tetris example was pure killer.

I’ve never ever ever heard an actual professional designer use cute card suite metaphors for player types.

Windsagio.1340:

I’ve never ever ever heard an actual professional designer use cute card suite metaphors for player types.

Is that supposed to dismiss those ‘player types’ listed above? Because it doesn’t.

Edit: Forgot link.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Bartle

Windsagio.1340:

I’ve never ever ever heard an actual professional designer use cute card suite metaphors for player types.

Do you know many actual professional designers?

Richard Bartle wrote those “cute card suite metaphors” to describe player types. I think they fit well don’t you think?

He is kind of the grand daddy of MMORPGs

Gold doesn’t give “value” to an item, also see: market manipulation. Also see: inflation. For months and months we’ve had nothing to spend gold on, yet prices aren’t skyrocketing. The “value” of an item for many player types isn’t measured in how much gold it requires to get, but how you get it.

Yeah, but as much as I’m not a fan of the gold economy in this game, gold value does provide a reflection of player demand for an item. Even if an item is very rare, if players don’t want it it can’t sustain a high price. See the various Legendary Weapons that nobody actually wants and that sit at barely at or above cost. You say that the value to you is going down, and that may be true, but I see no evidence that the value is falling for the community as a whole.

Of course it’s a good point but doesn’t mean “getting every reward” though

But it does mean that the developers should limit the point of player frustration, and having an element significantly more challenging, time consuming, and organized than typical GW2, behind which they lock some of the most desirable rewards in the game? That sounds like a textbook cause for unnecessary player frustration.

As long as Anet does not list people or guilds in meaningful categories(not pvp tables with private servers or something like that) and rankings, any claim of fame is weak at best in GW2 for me personally.

True, your raid leaderboard position would be a far better way to show off than armors. I still say the better compromise is to give people who complete the raid a trophy item that they can activate to wave a trophy around.

Also, you should read more about player types. Let’s use one widely used (but somewhat flawed) method of splitting player types, the Bartle method. It splits players in 4 types, Achiever, Explorer, Socializer and Killer.

Yeah, but here’s the thing, those four traits are only important if you want to, and can, attract them all in equal numbers. My theory is that if you polled the entire GW2 population on their Bartle scores, you would find statistically low numbers of achievers and killers. I feel like given the way the game is designed, a lot of those players either never showed up, or ran for the hills in the first few months, because as people keep saying, GW2 is lacking in what rewards them. I think the game’s focus has been on the explorers and socializers, and while it wouldn’t hurt them to attract more achievers, they need to be careful to not do so at the explorer and socializer’s expense. For the record I’m EASK, I do consider myself at least part achiever, I just don’t take it that seriously. I like to do what I can do, I don’t sweat the stuff that I can’t, unless that gets in the way of me getting the stuff I do care about.

People play GW2 for different reasons yes that is true, however your mistake is thinking people who like hardcore content only like this type of content. I myself love raiding in other mmo’s, yet i still love GW2 and i loved GW1.

Ok, but since you already like what GW2 is doing, couldn’t you continue to like what GW2 is doing without them having to add raids? Or wouldn’t you be satisfied if they did add raids, but did not exclude players that didn’t want to raid?

I’m not saying that the majority of people who play GW2 are not people who might enjoy raiding as an option, I’m saying that the majority of people who play GW2 are not people who need raiding as an option, because clearly they’ve been able to do without it.

I actually asked around, ingame, in all my guilds at primetime, about 30 people replied, none of them agreed with you. This is of course a very small sample size, but it’s better then making up stuff.

It’s actually not a sample size at all. That’s not how samples work. See, people who are in a guild with you, are more likely to share your view, whatever it may be, because they are people you’ve chosen to surround yourself with. It’s like if you go to the convention for the [insert political party here], and you polled them on [insert wedge issue upon which the two parties disagree], then you would find overwhelming support for that party’s position, but that doesn’t mean that it’s representative of the mood of the general population at all. Establishing a scientifically valid sample of GW2 players would be tricky, but polling within your own circle of friends accomplishes nothing.

You do realise if stats would increase but skins would be available that the entire community would riot right?

Many probably would. I honestly don’t care much about stats in this game. It doesn’t make a huge difference. Not one of my characters has full Ascended yet, even though I could gear most of them if I wanted, some of them are still running around with a piece or two of yellow gear just because I haven’t bothered to grab an exotic to replace it. I should probably get around to that, but it’s just not a priority. So yeah, if they announced that Legendary armor would have slightly higher stats than Ascended, but you could get the skins elsewhere, that would bother me less than if they announced it would have the same stats as Ascended but the skins would exclusive to the raids.

mountain climbers get a unique reward, an experience and view that most never see, which cannot be duplicated in any way.

And raiders get that same unique experience for having completed the raid, why do they also need unique armor? Mountain climbers do not get unique armor.

Not to mention the climber could either leave a marker behind or take something back with them from the whole experience.

Take only pictures, leave only footprints.

Imagine if Tetris were like this. There would be a checkbox for the normal game that would appropriately get harder and harder the higher score you got with the lovely fast falling blocks, and if you unchecked it the game would play out on the easiest, slowest falling blocks only difficulty and scaled up the score based on how much time you put into the game until like the normal game you maxed out the score. Of course the ‘leading scoreboard’ at the end would still be there, plug in your three initials and presto you got a high score! Everybody’s a winner!

Tetris doesn’t have any unique armor at all.

Sykper.6583:

phys.7689:

mountain climbers get a unique reward, an experience and view that most never see, which cannot be duplicated in any way.

that said, i really dont think mountain climbing is a good example of game design, in fact its probably a pretty poorly designed game.

Not to mention the climber could either leave a marker behind or take something back with them from the whole experience.

…Oh wait, that wouldn’t be fair, we need to make mountain climbing easier since not everyone is gaining that same reward since the task is impossible for some very capable people.

Anyone who dismisses effort as part of a formula for rewards should stop playing games that have this as part of their design or accept the fact that effort has always been fundamental to video game rewards since inception.

On a basic level, I don´t disagree. A reward requires an effort, no questions asked. But how much effort is enough, and can it be substituted?

To adress the mountain climbing:
Reinhold Messner, a guy that climbed everything even remotely high and in the general shape of a mountain, complained in an interview how comparetively easy it is now for tourists with money to climb the Mount Everest and even the K7 if they have really, really good guides and how much they pollute these mountains. 30 years ago, climbing was one of the hardest things to do, and only experienced mountain climbers with Sherpas made it to the top of the K7. So casual, slow movement guys even invade hardcore mountain climbing. Why? Because they could pay others for their efforts and could still by all means say that they climbed the Mount Everest as the Sherpas did not really carry them, only literally. So it is entirely possible that a weasely manager guy named Steve has climbed the highest mountains on earth and lived to tell the tale how he did it, just the same as Reinhold Messmer did with sweat, blood and tears some decades before him. Fair? Probably not. Reality? Yes.
not to mention the many, many people that could use a helicopter to have the same reward as Messmer had with the view, although they did not earn it by climbing.

Tetris on the other hand raises it´s speed until you can´t keep up anymore, so it is just a glorified reflexes test. I would even say that the reward for completing hard maps is really simple in Tetris, but still people like to play it to slay time. Only fair if you are that type of person.

Really rich tourists get a 6 month crash course of astronautics, then their wallet buys them a place in a Spacecraft that is usually piloted by people that train the biggest part of their lifes as adults for and still most of them fail to even set foot into a spacecraft that leaves earth for half of an hour, turnig the adventure of space travel into a glorified ride with the bus. Fair? Certainly not. Lucrative for Nasa and other space organizations? Of course.

That is the real power of getting things without being good at them, regardless of the type of (gamer) person you are. For our thread here, this are examples how people have farmed money(a different content) to buy themselves a seat in a spacecraft or at the highest mountain(a raid) without being really good astronauts or mountain climbers(casuals) and still getting the rewards(legendary armor).

A noticeable exception for this is competetive sports. You can probably buy yourself into Olympia like Vanessa May did, but it was pretty clear from the start that she would go home with zip, nada, nothing. GW2 is not even a competitive Esport, even if Anet thinks otherwise.

I am not saying that you have to like this, but hard content is bound to become easier over time, either with practice or by other means. The casuals just have to wait for it until they can buy it or when it has lost it´s novelty and it´s price has to be lowered. Hardcores are either Sherpas after a time or have to share their glory with Steve.^^

Ohoni.6057:

Take only pictures, leave only footprints.

Which mean entirely different things to those people. Though objectively different from physical rewards, the end result is a reward not many people will earn, not be entitled to.

Ohoni.6057:

Tetris doesn’t have any unique armor at all.

Have to simplify the analogy I suppose, the scoreboard and those on it represent the armor. Normally people who put the most effort and time into Tetris get better and earn a higher score. This nets them on the scoreboard, a visual marker of their achievement. That means that if Tetris were made into the example I proposed, a system where only Time really factors into success, then the scoreboard is filled with any single player who plays for any amount of time on any difficulty. Which, in turn, renders the entire scoreboard meaningless, what’s the point of tracking score when everyone can get the same score?

Kind of like what’s the point of getting Legendary Armor, which is supposed to be unique, when everyone can get it by just playing the game, effort be kittened?

Torolan.5816:

I am not saying that you have to like this, but hard content is bound to become easier over time, either with practice or by other means. The casuals just have to wait for it until they can buy it or when it has lost it´s novelty and it´s price has to be lowered.

I don’t disagree at all with the prospect of people finding their ways around a difficult objective. In fact Arah P4 runners selling their spots for gold is a perfect example of this. But I doubt they will remove the novelty, the Legendary Armor whether it be for the very slight convenience of changing stats to perhaps its impressive visual effect whatever it may be will still be a good to be earned or bought. I believe Colin also mentioned how raids won’t be any different in difficulty a year from their release, they will still retain that same bar of success and failure. I’ll have to go find that clip in the Raid announcement…

Does that mean 9-man guildmates selling boss runs in LA? Perhaps. It still signifies that players are putting a solid effort to doing the work, and this could hold especially true if the raid is tightly tuned so a 1-man handicap is extremely tough! Solo Lupi runs are a prime example of how players are more than willing to hop through hoops for a challenge, but that novelty has had years to mold, these players need something new to keep them around.

Sykper.6583:

Kind of like what’s the point of getting Legendary Armor, which is supposed to be unique, when everyone can get it by just playing the game, effort be kittened?

It’s not supposed to be unique. You can have more than one person with it. In fact, there’s no hard limit to how many of those are there.
It may be exclusive (which is a different thing). Which is an arbitrary distinction.

Also, nobody’s asking to be able to get legendary armor without effort. All what we ask for is for the effort to not be limited to a single type of content.

Because otherwise LA is not a reward for effort, but a reward for liking Raids. Or at least for containing your dislike of it for long enough. Oh, and being in a big guild.

Have to simplify the analogy I suppose, the scoreboard and those on it represent the armor.

Scoreboards are not armor. GW2 raids can, and should, have leaderboards. Nobody is asking that everyone be allowed to place highly on these leaderboards regardless of skill, only the best should be on them. But armor is NOT leaderboards, and not only the best should be allowed to have the cool armor.

Kind of like what’s the point of getting Legendary Armor, which is supposed to be unique, when everyone can get it by just playing the game, effort be kittened?

The point is in having the Legendary armor. If you don’t care about the armor itself, then don’t worry about getting it.

Because otherwise LA is not a reward for effort, but a reward for liking Raids. Or at least for containing your dislike of it for long enough. Oh, and being in a big guild.

Exactly.

Astralporing.1957:

It’s not supposed to be unique. You can have more than one person with it. In fact, there’s no hard limit to how many of those are there.
It may be exclusive (which is a different thing). Which is an arbitrary distinction.

Also, nobody’s asking to be able to get legendary armor without effort. All what we ask for is for the effort to not be limited to a single type of content.

Because otherwise LA is not a reward for effort, but a reward for liking Raids. Or at least for containing your dislike of it for long enough. Oh, and being in a big guild.

Twisting my words on unique isn’t helping, you know what I meant. There’s no truly ‘unique’ skin in this game based on what you defined it here (There isn’t one Sunrise in the game after all). Unique implies the skin in the raid can’t be earned doing another raid or another form of content. I suppose you could interchange unique and exclusive in this context, but I’ll keep using the former.

I agree to a point on limiting Legendary Armor. I would not want Legendary Armor as the tier of gear to be only limited to raids. Rather there should be Legendary Armor available in other mediums, likely requiring some barrier to overcome. However the Legendary Armor Skin(s) which will be in this new raid coming up, should be specific to that raid only. The system they have for the SPvP and Fractal Backpieces are a good example, independent pieces for two utterly different types of gameplay.

Personally I think there’s just a bit too much stigma associated with Raids. I am a bit more optimistic about how they will be received just because of how subtly the game rewards you for being a cooperator rather than a competitor in the PvE content for nearly all the content. When this game went F2P, there were so many videos of PvX guilds just being overall friendly to new players, players going out of their way to welcome and help newbies and each other out.

I think these kinds of guilds are definitely on the radar for the Raid content, well, we all will be getting acquainted with the new enemies in Magumma (which are consequently a bit tougher than what we have been dealing with for a while) so it’s my belief that if Arenanet can pull off helping the playerbase get better at playing the game, without those really against improving themselves to have fun, to the point where the Raid when it releases is still challenging but fun for a lot of players…

That is what will make or break this content. It might be too easy to just make the raid overwhelming even for the extreme players, rather the wall the Raid needs to be ought to encompass allowing players to earn their LA as they get better at it. We also need to bear in mind this content is very small compared to the full extent of HoT, there’s going to be content for everyone even if the LA isn’t for you.

Personally I think there’s just a bit too much stigma associated with Raids. I am a bit more optimistic about how they will be received just because of how subtly the game rewards you for being a cooperator rather than a competitor in the PvE content for nearly all the content. When this game went F2P, there were so many videos of PvX guilds just being overall friendly to new players, players going out of their way to welcome and help newbies and each other out.

I do not think that it will be possible to design a single content type that would both be appealing to raider-type players AND appealing to non-raider players at the same time. If it were possible, they would have done it with Fractals years ago. I think that the idea that this content could exist is right up there with carnivore-friendly meat substitutes.

there’s going to be content for everyone even if the LA isn’t for you.

The Legendary Armor is totally right for me, it’s just the raids that likely won’t be.

Ohoni.6057:

Have to simplify the analogy I suppose, the scoreboard and those on it represent the armor.

Scoreboards are not armor. GW2 raids can, and should, have leaderboards. Nobody is asking that everyone be allowed to place highly on these leaderboards regardless of skill, only the best should be on them. But armor is NOT leaderboards, and not only the best should be allowed to have the cool armor.

I am not literally comparing armor and scoreboards, 5 (I think its 5 for Tetris) people won’t be wearing the armor at any given time, and end up having to give that armor to someone else who surpasses them! The scoreboard however is WORTHLESS if every player regardless of their individual skill can get the same score if they spend an equal amount of time on the game! Why bother playing Tetris normally when you aren’t getting a better reward for your efforts, rather spend extra brain cells and reflexes elsewhere playing with my phone, man Tetris got boring all of a sudden.

A reward given universally undermines and diminishes any and all harder content from the easiest form. Players who want a challenge, and want a greater reward for risking their time on such a challenge aren’t masochists! They might even earn LESS than the ambient Silverwastes farmer if they fail! But at least they know that if they keep going at the Raid content they will get paid off in the end! That’s how you properly reward players for doing challenging content, for people doing anything ever!

Ohoni.6057:

The point is in having the Legendary armor. If you don’t care about the armor itself, then don’t worry about getting it.

And you will have the Legendary Armor if you can do the specific tasks set before you. Done. It’s there you just have to go get it when the Raid opens! Nothing is stopping you but yourself!

I am not literally comparing armor and scoreboards, 5 (I think its 5 for Tetris) people won’t be wearing the armor at any given time, and end up having to give that armor to someone else who surpasses them! The scoreboard however is WORTHLESS if every player regardless of their individual skill can get the same score if they spend an equal amount of time on the game!

Yes, and again, armor is not scoreboards. Raids can have scoreboards, the scoreboards can be exclusive, armor should not be.

Players who want a challenge, and want a greater reward for risking their time on such a challenge aren’t masochists! They might even earn LESS than the ambient Silverwastes farmer if they fail! But at least they know that if they keep going at the Raid content they will get paid off in the end! That’s how you properly reward players for doing challenging content, for people doing anything ever!

And the rewards for raiding should be balanced to be worth it, but it should come in quantity of loot, not in exclusivity of loot. And if they want some imagined “prestige” then it should come in the form of titles, achievements, and scoreboards, not in the form of exclusive weapons or armor.

And you will have the Legendary Armor if you can do the specific tasks set before you. Done. It’s there you just have to go get it when the Raid opens! Nothing is stopping you but yourself!

And the raid. If the raid isn’t stopping me from getting it, then where would be the “prestige” in completing the raid at all? Wouldn’t you prefer a raid that is actually difficult to complete, that not everyone can do it?

Ohoni.6057:

Personally I think there’s just a bit too much stigma associated with Raids. I am a bit more optimistic about how they will be received just because of how subtly the game rewards you for being a cooperator rather than a competitor in the PvE content for nearly all the content. When this game went F2P, there were so many videos of PvX guilds just being overall friendly to new players, players going out of their way to welcome and help newbies and each other out.

I do not think that it will be possible to design a single content type that would both be appealing to raider-type players AND appealing to non-raider players at the same time. If it were possible, they would have done it with Fractals years ago. I think that the idea that this content could exist is right up there with carnivore-friendly meat substitutes.

I agree mostly, it’s almost a pipe dream to see that kind of content. The only instance where I saw something really close to this was an old WotLK Raid in WoW, Ulduar. This raid was as brilliant as Karazhan, so how the raid would function is that many of the bosses in the Raid, aside from having specific achievements tied to doing or not doing certain things which made the encounter difficult in one fashion, had a ‘hard-mode’ switch tied to the fight. In fact Mimiron literally had a huge red button behind the boss that toggled a difficult enrage timer and lots and lots of fire everywhere during the fight, it was one of the most difficult hard-mode fights in the game at that point!

However, the raid if you did not want to do the hard-mode, you did not need to, you could play the whole thing normally. It was a moderately difficult raid, more close to entry-level but the fact that each boss could theoretically play out differently based on how the raid felt they could perform on that boss. That Raid, had additional levels of progression than just finally killing a boss for the first time, Ulduar was a crowning achievement in my books.

The caveat of the Hard-mode fights is that you got a slightly stronger set of gear (vertical progression) from those bosses, of course each piece unique to each boss. If that were translated to GW2, it would be something between an extra ‘horn’ on the shoulder-piece or maybe a glow effect. Still that system was amazing back in those days.

there’s going to be content for everyone even if the LA isn’t for you.

The Legendary Armor is totally right for me, it’s just the raids that likely won’t be. [/quote]

We will see, the whole playerbase I believe will get better at the first raid over months and the bar, artificially by the playerbase getting better, will become lower. Not to mention whether or not the raid is fun for people, even in the case of failure memories were had in old raiding.

maddoctor.2738:

Windsagio.1340:

I’ve never ever ever heard an actual professional designer use cute card suite metaphors for player types.

Do you know many actual professional designers?

Richard Bartle wrote those “cute card suite metaphors” to describe player types. I think they fit well don’t you think?

He is kind of the grand daddy of MMORPGs

I do in fact, I’m a (yeah actually paid) technical designer myself, and I’ve been in the business long enough to know at least some people. (It might be because we’re scummy mobile devs though, different culture)

And yeah, I’ve heard a lot of descriptions of the types of players in work discussion, but at least in our culture we don’t refer to them in that way.

~~

I’m not of course disputing the characterization into types, but honestly the card suite thing hit me as some annoying ‘paid design school bs’ and I shot my mouth off unreasonably :p

Ohoni.6057:

Yes, and again, armor is not scoreboards. Raids can have scoreboards, the scoreboards can be exclusive, armor should not be.

But it is, we are all valuing it even now. Armor is the only thing you can show off realistically in this game in other areas (Titles need a revamp to be mentioned in this category) ergo Legendary Armor is the scoreboard! Stop trying to deny that skins, being the measure of horizontal progression and thus the fruits of our effort in this game, are measured by time and effort. And if players can’t put effort into getting one skin of so, so many in this game, they won’t get the skin. Thus the skin is exclusive and valuable, and the want of many players who want that challenge, who will take that challenge time and time again to earn it!

And the rewards for raiding should be balanced to be worth it, but it should come in quantity of loot, not in exclusivity of loot. And if they want some imagined “prestige” then it should come in the form of titles, achievements, and scoreboards, not in the form of exclusive weapons or armor.

No, it has to come from exclusivity and likely quality of loot! Because it is a part of horizontal progression! There’s no imagined prestige, when another player who sees someone wielding that Legendary Armor walking around LA regardless of whether they are jealous or in awe, they know that person was involved in something grueling and came back successful! It might inspire them to go test their luck as well, you create a healthy community for that activity when you do so! I still get asked about my Green SAB Sword, and although sadly the response from some of these F2P is “What’s a Super Adventure Box?” makes me sad inside but I know they want the skin! And when SAB comes back (It will I know it!) they will try to get the skin there as well!

Ohoni.6057:

And the raid. If the raid isn’t stopping me from getting it, then where would be the “prestige” in completing the raid at all? Wouldn’t you prefer a raid that is actually difficult to complete, that not everyone can do it?

No, the raid isn’t stopping you from getting it at all, it is content that gives a reward when you complete it. If you can’t complete the raid you don’t get the reward. I imagine that for someone like you who values their personal skill level so low that the sheer concept of the raid’s prestige is dependent on whether or not you can do it, then obviously the balance wouldn’t be in your favor. I still think that players can improve on practice and time spent, and maybe at some point in the future you will get that LA piece if you put enough time and effort into it. But those who give up on it too soon won’t get that particular armor piece anywhere else, and that would be enough to add the necessary value to the Legendary armor.

The caveat of the Hard-mode fights is that you got a slightly stronger set of gear (vertical progression) from those bosses, of course each piece unique to each boss. If that were translated to GW2, it would be something between an extra ‘horn’ on the shoulder-piece or maybe a glow effect. Still that system was amazing back in those days.

But see, that would not be satisfying to players who might want that difference in appearance, but not want to difference in difficulty. There’s no way to “split the baby” on this one, any attempt you make is going to leave some people upset.

We will see, the whole playerbase I believe will get better at the first raid over months and the bar, artificially by the playerbase getting better, will become lower.

To some degree, there will be more players to “carry” the weaker ones, but keep in mind a few things. First, this effect will be weaker than in some other content. It won’t be as strong as in Teq, for example, because the number of players is lower, and the amount that 5-7 “veteran” raiders could help to carry the other three “newb” players would be less than the amount that 50-70 “veteran” Teq players could carry a less experienced map. And that’s for one relatively simple sequence of actions that takes about 15 minutes, not what we’re all assuming will be multiple complex encounters over 40+ minutes.

Second, as players do “lower the bar” on the first raid, they will begin to demand harder and harder new content, which means the bar will continually be raised, each time making it harder and harder for less skilled players to keep up. At least with gear progression, all you need to catch up is to get carried through enough content to have the appropriate gear, if it’s skill-based progression, you’re going to have plenty of players hitting their “hard cap” on skill well before the frontline players are satisfied.

Not to mention whether or not the raid is fun for people, even in the case of failure memories were had in old raiding.

I have good memories of playing sPvP, things that happened that were fun and surprising. That does not mean that my overall sPvP experience is a positive one, or that I would not have rather I had been able to do other things with that time. I would have had other positive experiences doing something else. I’m sure people who don’t like raids but are strong-armed into them will have the occasional positive experience, but that doesn’t mean that they will not resent having to do the raids to earn the gear they want.

But it is, we are all valuing it even now. Armor is the only thing you can show off realistically in this game in other areas (Titles need a revamp to be mentioned in this category) ergo Legendary Armor is the scoreboard!

Armor has some passing similarities to a scoreboard, but also some very clear differences which make it unsuitable for the comparison you’re insisting on. If you want better ways to show off your titles, achievements, or leaderboard position to others, then that’s fine, push for that, but armor skins do a poor job of filling that role, because they have an intrinsic value to them, regardless of their value as a scoreboard marker.

when another player who sees someone wielding that Legendary Armor walking around LA regardless of whether they are jealous or in awe, they know that person was involved in something grueling and came back successful!

Assuming that they look up where that particular armor comes from, maybe. Most people just wouldn’t care. They would perhaps see armor that they thought looked cool, but they would have zero interest in how the player got it, aside from wanting to know how they could get their own.

No, the raid isn’t stopping you from getting it at all, it is content that gives a reward when you complete it.

And doesn’t give me the reward if I don’t. You can’t argue that it’s not stopping me from getting the reward, that’s like saying that a locked vault door is not stopping me from getting the money inside it. Sure, if I can break the vault door then I can get at the money, but until I break that door, I’m not getting that money.

I imagine that for someone like you who values their personal skill level so low that the sheer concept of the raid’s prestige is dependent on whether or not you can do it, then obviously the balance wouldn’t be in your favor.

I’m not that bad, I could probably do the raid content about as well as most, I just have zero interest in it. The challenge of it does not add to my joy, it is not something that would make my gaming time better, and the hassles involved, of getting a party together, and setting out for what is likely to be a long dungeon run, none of that sounds at all interesting to me, even worse having to do that multiple times. It’s not that I don’t think I can do it, even though I’m sure there are plenty who would fall into that boat, it’s that there are so many other things I’d rather be doing with that time, so the idea that the game would force me into this particular activity if I want that reward is offensive to me. It is disrespectful of my time as a customer.

Ohoni.6057:

I do not think that it will be possible to design a single content type that would both be appealing to raider-type players AND appealing to non-raider players at the same time.

It may be possible, but that content is not raids. That is because one of the features of raids that make them appealing for raiders is that they are not meant for everyone.

Sykper.6583:

No, the raid isn’t stopping you from getting it at all, it is content that gives a reward when you complete it. If you can’t complete the raid you don’t get the reward.

Well, if i can’t complete a raid, then it means the raid did stop me, did it not?

Sykper.6583:

I imagine that for someone like you who values their personal skill level so low that the sheer concept of the raid’s prestige is dependent on whether or not you can do it, then obviously the balance wouldn’t be in your favor.

It’s not personal skill required that i find problematic. What stops me enjoying the raids are other requirements. Namely, number of people required (it’s not easy for me to gather 9 of my friends at the same time to do the same content) and possibly (if raiders from this topic will have their way) time requirement. Not only the times when i could participate in several hours long events are long over, but the longer the content is going to take, the more the chance of fulfilling the previous (numerical) requirement decreases.

Ohoni.6057:

But see, that would not be satisfying to players who might want that difference in appearance, but not want to difference in difficulty. There’s no way to “split the baby” on this one, any attempt you make is going to leave some people upset.

It’s still probably one of the better methods that attempted to compromise with parties that had difficulty with the raid and those who wanted a real challenge. But I agree, there will be never a solution that will appease anyone, no one has come up with it yet.

Ohoni.6057:

To some degree, there will be more players to “carry” the weaker ones, but keep in mind a few things. First, this effect will be weaker than in some other content. It won’t be as strong as in Teq, for example, because the number of players is lower, and the amount that 5-7 “veteran” raiders could help to carry the other three “newb” players would be less than the amount that 50-70 “veteran” Teq players could carry a less experienced map. And that’s for one relatively simple sequence of actions that takes about 15 minutes, not what we’re all assuming will be multiple complex encounters over 40+ minutes.

Second, as players do “lower the bar” on the first raid, they will begin to demand harder and harder new content, which means the bar will continually be raised, each time making it harder and harder for less skilled players to keep up. At least with gear progression, all you need to catch up is to get carried through enough content to have the appropriate gear, if it’s skill-based progression, you’re going to have plenty of players hitting their “hard cap” on skill well before the frontline players are satisfied.

Agreed, in a 10 man environment every person has a larger role than in a 100 man environment. But effect is still there, only the rate which players get better will be slower if anything.

As for harder and harder content, that’s an interesting subject as GW2 doesn’t use vertical scaling in its design, meaning that it likely won’t revolve around the tank needing better gear. Rather, I believe raids in GW2 will revolve around mostly mechanics and environment, each raid might be utterly different in difficulty for even the raider culture that would come from this. I am extremely curious about how Arenanet will create these encounters and keep them fresh without a powercreep. Well, with things like Glider Mastery I think they might have some creative ideas rolling around.

Ohoni.6057:

I have good memories of playing sPvP, things that happened that were fun and surprising. That does not mean that my overall sPvP experience is a positive one, or that I would not have rather I had been able to do other things with that time. I would have had other positive experiences doing something else. I’m sure people who don’t like raids but are strong-armed into them will have the occasional positive experience, but that doesn’t mean that they will not resent having to do the raids to earn the gear they want.

There’s a lot of things I might not have had the best experience doing. The WvW Mist Hero skins for instance weren’t necessarily hard to attain, but there’s only a certain set of things I really like doing in WvW that weren’t on that list to do for those skins. I still did them though, because I wanted the skins. Would I like them attained elsewhere? No, because it changed up what I do normally in the game, I did something other players actually love doing so interacting and working with them was interesting enough, and it wasn’t something I would be doing 100% of the time everyday for.

Raiding won’t be the fixation of all of our efforts, the hardcore PvE players won’t stick to raids, they have other focuses as well like Fractals and leveling up masteries and other potential open world events that will come about with Heart of Thorns. If there was JUST raiding and nothing else to unlock everything in Heart of Thorns, I’ll have my own pitchfork.

Ohoni.6057:

Armor has some passing similarities to a scoreboard, but also some very clear differences which make it unsuitable for the comparison you’re insisting on. If you want better ways to show off your titles, achievements, or leaderboard position to others, then that’s fine, push for that, but armor skins do a poor job of filling that role, because they have an intrinsic value to them, regardless of their value as a scoreboard marker.

The intrinsic value became the scoreboard marker however, because of how this game was designed. It’s not stats but skins that we progress by, and compare each other with. You wouldn’t be able to make an MMO successful if horizontal progression was only achieved through time, that’s not an MMO, that’s a mobile game in the making.

Ohoni.6057:

Assuming that they look up where that particular armor comes from, maybe. Most people just wouldn’t care. They would perhaps see armor that they thought looked cool, but they would have zero interest in how the player got it, aside from wanting to know how they could get their own.

People do care, they should care and that’s a problem. There’s is a scarce amount of skins in the game that people actively questioned and wanted them for. Nothing really takes anything to earn, but time, and that sucks so much, it kills GW2. If the LA that comes out is impressive enough, people will begin to care, and will do the content. Some will enjoy it, some won’t, but at least they know they will get it if they do the content. [/quote]

Ohoni.6057:

And doesn’t give me the reward if I don’t. You can’t argue that it’s not stopping me from getting the reward, that’s like saying that a locked vault door is not stopping me from getting the money inside it. Sure, if I can break the vault door then I can get at the money, but until I break that door, I’m not getting that money.

A locked door doesn’t care what gets through it, it serves a single purpose of being a locked barrier. It’s not capable of stopping you, you from breaking it apart or finding the key.

Ohoni.6057:

I’m not that bad, I could probably do the raid content about as well as most, I just have zero interest in it. The challenge of it does not add to my joy, it is not something that would make my gaming time better, and the hassles involved, of getting a party together, and setting out for what is likely to be a long dungeon run, none of that sounds at all interesting to me, even worse having to do that multiple times. It’s not that I don’t think I can do it, even though I’m sure there are plenty who would fall into that boat, it’s that there are so many other things I’d rather be doing with that time, so the idea that the game would force me into this particular activity if I want that reward is offensive to me. It is disrespectful of my time as a customer.

And it’s respectful of players who have been demanding it for so long. You aren’t the only player who plays GW2, and they haven’t forgotten to have other skins exclusive to other areas. I probably won’t get the super awesome skin from Raiding if it comes from a Vendor in the Magumma Jungle who will sell it if you have enough Mastery experience with them. The only thing that Arenanet needs to provide is the means for players to get said reward. There would only be a conflict if Arenanet made individual accounts impossible to receive some rewards given to other players, I mean 100% restricted, you can’t buy/earn that drop ever.

Astralporing.1957:

Sykper.6583:

No, the raid isn’t stopping you from getting it at all, it is content that gives a reward when you complete it. If you can’t complete the raid you don’t get the reward.

Well, if i can’t complete a raid, then it means the raid did stop me, did it not?

The raid didn’t kick you out, or take away your legendary armor physically did it?

Let me know when it does that.

Sykper.6583:

I imagine that for someone like you who values their personal skill level so low that the sheer concept of the raid’s prestige is dependent on whether or not you can do it, then obviously the balance wouldn’t be in your favor.

It’s not personal skill required that i find problematic. What stops me enjoying the raids are other requirements. Namely, number of people required (it’s not easy for me to gather 9 of my friends at the same time to do the same content) and possibly (if raiders from this topic will have their way) time requirement. Not only the times when i could participate in several hours long events are long over, but the longer the content is going to take, the more the chance of fulfilling the previous (numerical) requirement decreases.
[/quote]

This is true, which is why one of the things I hope for with the raid lock-outs is something close to tracking your progress so you can do the same raid over the course of the week. However there are several metrics and issues I am not sure of quite yet that might impact that possibility. I am more than certain though that with the lockout being a weekly basis players will find a time during the weekdays or more likely weekends to work on their raid.

A lot of questions float around in my head with concern to the GW2 raid, but those will have to be seen when it launches.

As for harder and harder content, that’s an interesting subject as GW2 doesn’t use vertical scaling in its design, meaning that it likely won’t revolve around the tank needing better gear. Rather, I believe raids in GW2 will revolve around mostly mechanics and environment, each raid might be utterly different in difficulty for even the raider culture that would come from this. I am extremely curious about how Arenanet will create these encounters and keep them fresh without a powercreep. Well, with things like Glider Mastery I think they might have some creative ideas rolling around.

That’s my point, since stats don’t creep up, if there are demands made to “increase difficulty,” then that would only widen the skill gap between what the average player has and what he would need, whereas in other games you can compensate for some of that by just gearing up better than is expected by the content. This makes it even less likely that lower skilled players will ever be able to actively participate.

I did something other players actually love doing so interacting and working with them was interesting enough, and it wasn’t something I would be doing 100% of the time everyday for.

Yeah, but that was only changing up your play style for a little bit (I knocked mine out over like an hour or two total in EotM), so it’s not a big deal, but imagine if instead you had to do that for several hours a week, for months at a time to earn the thing you wanted. There is a point where “close your eyes and think of England” just isn’t enough.

It’s not that we won’t have other things to be doing, it’s that these other things won’t do anything to unlock these armors, so raiding MUST become a part of your life if you want to unlock those armors. That’s the entire thing I take issue with.

The intrinsic value became the scoreboard marker however, because of how this game was designed.

No, the intrinsic value has nothing to do with the scoreboard marker. The intrinsic value is what the thing would be worth if it were easy to get. It’s what people value based on the appearance alone, without even considering the rarity. There are very rare skins with very low intrinsic worth, and very common skins with relatively high intrinsic worth, like the light armor starter miniskirt.

A scoreboard entry has no intrinsic worth, it would have zero meaning if not to show that you have earned that high score. This is why you can’t use the two interchangeably, a skin has a potential scoreboard element (or not, entirely the dev’s choice on any given skin), but it is not just a scoreboard.

A locked door doesn’t care what gets through it, it serves a single purpose of being a locked barrier. It’s not capable of stopping you, you from breaking it apart or finding the key.

But it is still an obstacle between me and my goal. You can’t characterize it as anything other than that.

And it’s respectful of players who have been demanding it for so long.

You shouldn’t disrespect one customer to please another. If they want to add raids, that’s fine, but don’t lock exclusive rewards behind them.

You aren’t the only player who plays GW2, and they haven’t forgotten to have other skins exclusive to other areas.

As I’ve said time, and time, and time, and time, and time again, “exclusive rewards in other areas” do not balance out exclusive rewards here. That is not a solution, that does not make it right. Exclusive skins are never “equal” to each other, they all have subjective value, so if the one that you want is locked behind content you don’t want to do, then it does not improve things in the slightest if some other skin that you don’t want is locked behind content that you do want to do. It’s like saying “no, you can’t have any ice cream, but you can have as much broccoli as you like, so it’s even.”

Ohoni.6057:

That’s my point, since stats don’t creep up, if there are demands made to “increase difficulty,” then that would only widen the skill gap between what the average player has and what he would need, whereas in other games you can compensate for some of that by just gearing up better than is expected by the content. This makes it even less likely that lower skilled players will ever be able to actively participate.

Not quite what I meant, without any numerical difference what will matter is mechanics correct? Mechanics mean a lot of things, it is easy enough just to make “Alright last time we had you jumping off the platform for a huge attack that will instadown you, now not only will you jump off the platform, but you gotta dodge things while flying wee! New mechanic!” However, that would be a direct mechanical increase, and although it is something many raiders would be familiar with it would be rather familiar and a bit boring for players to see a recycled mechanic made a bit harder.

Rather, what would likely happen is that each encounter and every new raid going forward will have a fresh, new mechanic not seen yet. How this mechanic is received will be entirely dependent on the player, so it’s possible after this 1st raid, new mechanics in the 2nd raid might be either easier or harder for the raiders at that time. Someone who struggled in this upcoming raid, might end up carrying more weight in the following one, just because the mechanics are something easier for that player. By that same notion, a player who knows the ins and outs of this first raid might have an abysmal time in the second raid just because the mechanics are harder for that player.

I don’t think the difficulty will rise, only that the required ‘skill-set’ to do the encounter correctly will change from raid to raid. At least that’s what I took from Colin’s presentation, hence his reasoning that the raid will still be quite challenging even after more raids are released.

Ohoni.6057:

Yeah, but that was only changing up your play style for a little bit (I knocked mine out over like an hour or two total in EotM), so it’s not a big deal, but imagine if instead you had to do that for several hours a week, for months at a time to earn the thing you wanted. There is a point where “close your eyes and think of England” just isn’t enough.

It’s not that we won’t have other things to be doing, it’s that these other things won’t do anything to unlock these armors, so raiding MUST become a part of your life if you want to unlock those armors. That’s the entire thing I take issue with.

A player spending…more than 6 hours in raiding every week is a pretty conservative amount especially during ‘Launch-Learning’ phases (Essentially when no one knows a thing, and people die reading new debuffs and buffs lol). Thinking of how much time you spend in game already, having one afternoon spent a week at least attempting to progress in a raid if you so choose isn’t an awful suggestion given the quality of gear you are trying to attain is Legendary. If it were to be compared to making a regular legendary weapon, how would the time invested be any different?

Actually that’s a good thought, have you made a Legendary Weapon yet? How long did it take you? Because Legendary Armor could be considered to take at least that long I presume.

Ohoni.6057:

No, the intrinsic value has nothing to do with the scoreboard marker. The intrinsic value is what the thing would be worth if it were easy to get. It’s what people value based on the appearance alone, without even considering the rarity. There are very rare skins with very low intrinsic worth, and very common skins with relatively high intrinsic worth, like the light armor starter miniskirt.

A scoreboard entry has no intrinsic worth, it would have zero meaning if not to show that you have earned that high score. This is why you can’t use the two interchangeably, a skin has a potential scoreboard element (or not, entirely the dev’s choice on any given skin), but it is not just a scoreboard.

Fair enough, however remember that although items do have an intrinsic value as you put it, quite a few players have put additional value on skins based on their attainability. The easiest earned skins, however intrinsic their value, offer no ‘value’ to these players when they share the same look as their more (lack of a better term) lazy friends.

Ohoni.6057:

But it is still an obstacle between me and my goal. You can’t characterize it as anything other than that.

Wall, Challenge, Block, etc. Think the metaphor died some time ago, my point being is that rather than finding a way to deal with something that will clearly Not be going away any time soon, people apparently want to just have that content made obsolete and pointless. Because ‘Carrot and Stick’ reward structure is how any game has marketed progression in any form since RPGs existed. Want to use the level 10 sword? Well you got to be level 10, which means you have to level! Oh no what a trial!

Ohoni.6057:

You shouldn’t disrespect one customer to please another. If they want to add raids, that’s fine, but don’t lock exclusive rewards behind them.

Then you are disrespecting the players’ wishes which the content was created for.

Ohoni.6057:

As I’ve said time, and time, and time, and time, and time again, “exclusive rewards in other areas” do not balance out exclusive rewards here. That is not a solution, that does not make it right. Exclusive skins are never “equal” to each other, they all have subjective value, so if the one that you want is locked behind content you don’t want to do, then it does not improve things in the slightest if some other skin that you don’t want is locked behind content that you do want to do. It’s like saying “no, you can’t have any ice cream, but you can have as much broccoli as you like, so it’s even.”

Yet here we are, doing pretty well so far even though that same reward structure has been in the game for years. Did you know you either need an atrocious amount of money or high-value materials (interchangeable really) for Infinite Light? No other means to attain it! Boy isn’t that a bother? Why couldn’t I just put in 1000 Badges of Honor?

I want to say I pay some amount of attention to various players and what they wear. Some things catch my eye until I get a clear picture and realize that the charr is actually just wearing a piece of Barbaric gear and I shrug. Whatever intrinsic value he puts into looking like a very brutish Charr, never really impresses me as much as seeing the not-so-often seen Yellow SAB Shield, those were around more frequently back then but to see someone with that skin brings back both a nostalgic vibe and an understanding that the player in question went through a lot of trouble to get that skin. Not quite to the point of me whispering him ‘Nice Shield’ but I do acknowledge it, even though some people might find its intrinsic value far less than I do.

The truth of the matter is, on the scale Intrinsic value matters less to a major portion of the playerbase than exclusive value. Enough that Raids are getting this exclusive gear against your plights, weighing out many factors I presume such as if this will make players leave the game if they can’t get a single armor they want from this game, versus retaining PvE veterans.

I don’t think the difficulty will rise, only that the required ‘skill-set’ to do the encounter correctly will change from raid to raid. At least that’s what I took from Colin’s presentation, hence his reasoning that the raid will still be quite challenging even after more raids are released.

Maybe, but then I would expect each raid attempt to include multiple sections with their own rules, so chances are that players who are not good “all-rounders” will have parts that they struggle with in all raids, they might get past the first bit easy but struggle with the second, or struggle with the first but if they can get by it the second is easy.

A player spending…more than 6 hours in raiding every week is a pretty conservative amount especially during ‘Launch-Learning’ phases

Yes, that is WAY too much time invested to chalk up to “oh, stop complaining and just do it.”

If it were to be compared to making a regular legendary weapon, how would the time invested be any different?

Yes. I probably spent a grand total of less than six hours working on my Legendary. I mean, if you’re counting World Completion that took longer, but 1. it was something I would have done even without Legendary weapons (and yes, I support them providing alternatives for those that don’t enjoy world completion), and 2. I did it over a period of about two months, about a year or so before I made my Legendary, and only did about a half-hour to an hour of map clearing per day, alongside other activities. There is no time in the past three years where I’ve spent more than about three hours in the game in a single sitting. I honestly doubt that most GW2 players have spent more than four hours in game at a time, aside from very special events.

The easiest earned skins, however intrinsic their value, offer no ‘value’ to these players when they share the same look as their more (lack of a better term) lazy friends.

Sure they do, they still look the same. To most players, that’s all that matters.

Want to use the level 10 sword? Well you got to be level 10, which means you have to level! Oh no what a trial!

But you can gain those levels through all sorts of means, exploration, questing, grinding mobs, crafting, etc. Options. That’s all I’ve asked for, not that I shouldn’t have to earn the thing through hard work, just that the method of hard work should be flexible.

Then you are disrespecting the players’ wishes which the content was created for.

They aren’t the only ones who matter. If their wishes are for other people to not have things, then those other people’s wishes should typically supersede their own. Hardcore PKs want to be able to slaughter new players outside starting towns, they can’t be allowed that because it would make those other players’ experiences worse.

Yet here we are, doing pretty well so far even though that same reward structure has been in the game for years. Did you know you either need an atrocious amount of money or high-value materials (interchangeable really) for Infinite Light? No other means to attain it! Boy isn’t that a bother? Why couldn’t I just put in 1000 Badges of Honor?

Yes, but there are dozens of ways to earn gold in the game, so there are dozens of ways to “earn” infinite light. That’s what I’m asking for, multiple methods of earning Legendary Armor.

Some things catch my eye until I get a clear picture and realize that the charr is actually just wearing a piece of Barbaric gear and I shrug.

That’s very sad. I feel the exact opposite. I couldn’t care less whether someone has a particularly hard to come by piece, all I care is that they have the right combination of pieces and dyes to make it work for them. I just complimented someone on their appearance in game, but as near as I can tell it was all pretty common stuff, it just looked great on her.

The truth of the matter is, on the scale Intrinsic value matters less to a major portion of the playerbase than exclusive value.

Source?

Honestly Ohoni your crusade doesn’t make sense.

Titles can be exclusive and weapons/armor not? Why? Because you don’t like tiles but you like weapons/armors?

Every games has a lot of exclusive rewards for some specific task, GW2 has a lot of exclusive rewards for many part of the game

WVW has exclusive weapons, Spvp has exclusive armors and back, SAB has exclusive weapons, Tequatl & Wurm have armor and weapons, Fractal has exclusive weapons, SW has exclusive armors etc.

So you complained about that at the same way or you are complaining for raid ONLY because it’s a LEGENDARY skin?