Guild Wars 2

Ohoni, I know some people can’t raid for time requirements, when I played WoW, I had that problem for half a year or so which I couldn’t raid. I however understood this and resigned myself from raiding. It sucked especially because its the thing I loved doing. The difference here is just because I couldn’t raid I didn’t go out of my way to attempt devalue it for those who could. The thing you seem to be attempting. You might not think so, that might not be your goal, but that is the outcome of your goal.

Then there are people who simply don’t want to raid. If they don’t want to raid, they need to understand that they can’t have the reward, honestly, its not that hard to understand. You have equal opportunity, its one of the basics of the thing we call liberty, but you also want equal outcome, which most certainly is not. I could have been a football player, I don’t like football, so I didn’t participate, so I don’t I don’t have a chance to win the NFL, I can’t get some golden football or something of that nature.

To raiders, those unique rewards are our golden football. But this is a game and its not limited as the real world, while I’m to old and out of shape to EVER play in the NFL, its never to late for you to raid, in fact as time goes on, its going to become easier for you to participate in raiding as the content becomes well rehearsed and probably nerfed. In fact, you can raid, pvp, farm you brains out in the Silverwastes, WvW and everything else you could possibly want to do in this game.

But you don’t want to participate, you want to participate in the NBA get your golden basketball and still get your golden football without participating in the NFL at all. Its not enough that you have equal opportunity, you want equal outcome. Would you want to participate in NFL, base your entire career around it and when you win, the thing that represents your achievement, all your hard work, is also handed out to all the baseball players, the basket ball players. soccer players and all the other sports you can imagine. I think not.

Edit: Typos

Yeah, but there’s not a lot of point in getting the armor twice either.

You might still want 2 legendary light sets to take advantage of stat swaping, but that’s beside the point anyway.

The second is, yes, I am talking about diminishing your reward from what it could possibly be, but do you really deserve more than that?

You are thinking about raids and raids alone, while exclusive rewards is something that affects the entire game and not only “challenging content”. It isn’t about raids only, it’s about all content in the game needing more exclusive rewards.True, you could potentially put only titles behind raids but what about other content?

Would you really want to put only titles as exclusive rewards behind content?
How do you think the game would be if the only thing to differentiate players is their title?
A super hard jumping puzzle gives the title “master jumper”, a super hard raid gives the title “master raider”, a pro-pvper gets the title “pro-pvper”, is that really a reasonable reward system for a video game? Is just a “title” enough? And think outside of raids (or challenging group content) for once.

maddoctor.2738:

I’m still waiting for that game that gives all the rewards to everyone.

What for? That was never the argument. The argument you brought up was that there’s no way to give the same reward through two wildly different avenues without making the harder option irrelevant. That has been debunked long ago. Only then you have switched to claiming that you need to see a game that gives everything through all avenues.

So, to sum it up, you have made a claim that you didn’t support with any evidence, instead of supplying that evidence you asserted that your unsupported claim is true until proved otherwise, and when that proof was supplied, demanded a proof for something unrelated.

Which only shows, that you can’t really support your own claim with sensible arguments.

phys.7689:

One thing i dont get with ohoni, he understands not all content is designed for him, but doesnt understand not all items are designed for him

Or he simply disagrees with it.
Just as the raiders were disagreeing with GW2 design that contained no raids, until Anet finally caved in.

It’s a game of tug now. You have made a situation where your goals, and goals of people like Ohoni are contradictory. Don’t be surprised then, that the other side is going to pull that rope in their direction with all their might – you have created that situation, when you have asserted that any sort of compromise is impossible (well, any sort of compromise besides the one where you get everything you want and cede nothing to others).

TheRandomGuy.7246:

Why would you think that raid armor is for you?

My method of deciding if an armor is for me or not is by looking whether one of my characters would look good in it. If the armor is good-looking and/or fits one of my chars theme, it is for me. If it’s ugly and wouldn’t fit any of my alts, it’s not for me. That’s the only factor that i consider sensible.
So no, i don’t know whether legendary armor will be for me or not, as i haven’t seen it yet. I do know however, that my decision on it will have nothing to do with raids whatsoever. After all, they won’t affect how that armor is going to look.

phys.7689:

Nike.2631:

phys.7689:

Truth is it really boils down to wanting everything on ones own terms.

Absolutely. As long as you realize that’s true of EVERYONE participating in this discussion .

not really at all.
The raiders arent asking that every item be available through raids.

Because they are not in it for every item. They are in it to create a system that will put them on pedestal and make all other players envy them. It is clear in this topic, that most of them do not even put any worth in how the armor skins will look like – as long as they are exclusive and easily recognizable.
So yes, the “compromise” they envision is where they get everything they ask for.

maddoctor.2738:

You should learn what a compromise is. here I will help you:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/compromise

We have 2 opposite sides, one wants unique/exclusive rewards, the other wants to get everything through a variety of content. How do we compromise? Put items behind both systems, that’s what a mutual concession is.

Which is exactly what one side wants, and exactly what the other side doesn’t want. A compromise that offers 100% to one side and 0% to the other is no compromise at all.

And of course, since raider group says that nothing less than full exclusivity of raid rewards is going to satisfy them and that the rewards must be armor skins, not just titles, achievements and leaderboard, the discussion is now purely binary, all or nothing. No compromise is even possible on these terms.

maddoctor.2738:

I will redirect to the word “compromise”, it’s a good word.

Yeah, i’d advise you to consider it yourself, because that’s not what you’re advocating.

Ohoni, I know some people can’t raid for time requirements, when I played WoW, I had that problem for half a year or so which I couldn’t raid. I however understood this and resigned myself from raiding. It sucked especially because its the thing I loved doing. The difference here is just because I couldn’t raid I didn’t go out of my way to attempt devalue it for those who could. The thing you seem to be attempting. You might not think so, that might not be your goal, but that is the outcome of your goal.

Whether raiding has value or not is up to the raiders. I’m just trying to make sure that the rest of the game doesn’t have less value because raiding is being added.

You might still want 2 legendary light sets to take advantage of stat swaping, but that’s beside the point anyway.

Right I addressed that, you would still be able to do that, nothing I suggested would reduce your ability to do that, it is indeed completely irrelevant to the discussion, but you were the one that brought it up.

You are thinking about raids and raids alone, while exclusive rewards is something that affects the entire game and not only “challenging content”. It isn’t about raids only, it’s about all content in the game needing more exclusive rewards.True, you could potentially put only titles behind raids but what about other content?

Same. Offer titles for significant accomplishments in any field. They already have Achievements, and in many cases titles for all sorts of things, just expand that out.

How do you think the game would be if the only thing to differentiate players is their title?

It wouldn’t be the only thing to differentiate players, it would be the only thing to differentiate between tasks. They would still have whichever armor they chose to wear, but even now most players wear armor that could have come from anywhere, or if it was specific to a certain location it was not a significant enough effort for that item to “define” the character. Armor does not define your life story in this game, it just defines the pieces that you thought looked good on your character. As I noted, one of my core characters has a PvP-based helm, if anyone takes from that that I actually care about PvP, or am particularly good at it, then they have been greatly mislead.

A super hard jumping puzzle gives the title “master jumper”, a super hard raid gives the title “master raider”, a pro-pvper gets the title “pro-pvper”,

They would likely be a bit more specific than that, like “Spekk’s Lab Assistant,” or “[Name related to raid that we don’t know about yet] Conquerer,” or “Mist Dominator” or something. They would be specific and flavorful, and as varied as there are piece of armor or weapons that are unique to a given location, if not moreso. They would clearly spell out exactly what feat you’re most proud of. My current main runs the title “Master Carver.”

But yeah, it has as much value as wearing Twilight Arbor armor to let people know “hey, at one point over the past three years, I spent at least a few hours inside a certain dungeon!” Beyond that, the function of the armor is to show off your fashion sense (or lack thereof).

I am not saying that titles should be the ONLY reward, very obviously. Too obviously for anyone to make that mistake, but I digress, all I’m saying is that they need be the only rewards that are specific to a single location or activity. That is all you need to show off “hey, I did that one thing that I’m pretty proud of.” Anything else, that can come from wherever you’d like to get it.

Astralporing.1957:

What for? That was never the argument. The argument you brought up was that there’s no way to give the same reward through two wildly different avenues without making the harder option irrelevant. That has been debunked long ago. Only then you have switched to claiming that you need to see a game that gives everything through all avenues.

That was never actually debunked though. The game was used as an argument due to all the silly examples given by many people over the last pages. Why give examples of sports, restaurants, food nutrition value for children, real military, fire brigade, the police, or anything to promote certain points of view, and not give an example of an actual video game to stay on topic?

maddoctor.2738:

You should learn what a compromise is. here I will help you:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/compromise

Which is exactly what one side wants, and exactly what the other side doesn’t want. A compromise that offers 100% to one side and 0% to the other is no compromise at all.

No it’s not. One side wants exclusivity for everything, the other for nothing, we get a compromise by having items on both sides, that’s what a compromise is.

maddoctor.2738:

I will redirect to the word “compromise”, it’s a good word.

Yeah, i’d advise you to consider it yourself, because that’s not what you’re advocating.

I do as explained above and that’s what I’m advocating.

You might still want 2 legendary light sets to take advantage of stat swaping, but that’s beside the point anyway.

Right I addressed that, you would still be able to do that, nothing I suggested would reduce your ability to do that, it is indeed completely irrelevant to the discussion, but you were the one that brought it up.

No you won’t be. If it’s legendary armor you will run the content multiple times to get more than 1 sets. If it’s a title you won’t. That’s why armor is more important than a title. Armor has way more replay value than a title.

But yeah, it has as much value as wearing Twilight Arbor armor to let people know “hey, at one point over the past three years, I spent at least a few hours inside a certain dungeon!” Beyond that, the function of the armor is to show off your fashion sense (or lack thereof).

And you are still missing the point that rewards = just skins isn’t how everyone thinks of them. Still missing it and still don’t get it, or maybe simply refuse to.

I am not saying that titles should be the ONLY reward, very obviously. Too obviously for anyone to make that mistake, but I digress, all I’m saying is that they need be the only rewards that are specific to a single location or activity. That is all you need to show off “hey, I did that one thing that I’m pretty proud of.” Anything else, that can come from wherever you’d like to get it.

If you think that just titles are enough motivation to play content in any video game then I have nothing to say on this other than we will get a dead game very soon if they ever did that.

Ohoni, let me get this straight, forgive me if I’m misinterpreting, but the rest of the game is being devalued because a game mode is being introduced with its own unique value? Mind you, you can’t acquire any of the unique values any other game modes have from this specific game mode.

“My gold ring is worth less to me because my friend has gold earrings!”

This feels kind of selfish to me.

Kaamau.5341:

Ohoni, let me get this straight, forgive me if I’m misinterpreting, but the rest of the game is being devalued because a game mode is being introduced with its own unique value? Mind you, you can’t acquire any of the unique values any other game modes have from this specific game mode.

“My gold ring is worth less to me because my friend has gold earrings!”

This feels kind of selfish to me.

Actually that almost exactly what people who want exclusive rewards are saying.

“I value this visual flourish NOT because of its visual appeal but because it stands for my accomplishment. If other people have it for any other reason that reduces its value.”

…And I agree — if it’s only purpose is to be a marker of accomplishment, handing it out other ways reduces its value as a marker. See buying Legendaries. Despite their stated purpose in the game as “a testament to your mastery of all aspects of play” they are MEANINGLESS as a marker of game-wide expertise because you can buy them through RMT with zero play expertise.

But skins — armor skins in particular — also have aesthetic value and there are people who would treasure them because of what they look like rather than their scarcity. I’m all for scarce and visible rewards for raiders. I’d just rather that reward not be delivered in the form of armor skins. I’d like to see a giant riding-battle-dolyak you can mount up on using the same tech as the riding broom item (what? Its a Dolyak, they aren’t any faster than moving on foot…) that gets progressively more ornate armor as you clear tiers of accomplishments through repeatedly succeeding on the raids or over coming additional side-challenges. Something GENUINELY UNIQUE for raiders without boxing up and partitioning a set of armor skins solely for their use.

Seriously. Take the Battle-Dolyak. Ride it right thought the middle of Lion’s Arch to the ’ooo’s and ’ahhh’s of awestruck newbs. It’s awesome. There can be raid armor skins too, but make those work like dungeon skins with a means of access for sPvP players.

(and maybe WvW, which remains screwed out of just about all cosmetic rewards)

maddoctor.2738:

No you won’t be. If it’s legendary armor you will run the content multiple times to get more than 1 sets. If it’s a title you won’t. That’s why armor is more important than a title. Armor has way more replay value than a title.

Than one title sure. But you can just as easily create titles for 1st success, 6th success (equivalent to one armor set), 12th success (equivalent to two sets) and 18th success (equivalent to the almighty 3 full sets… ooo, aaah!).

If you think that just titles are enough motivation to play content in any video game then I have nothing to say on this other than we will get a dead game very soon if they ever did that.

Are you familiar with City of Heroes? ‘Cause man, let me tell you, Badge Hunting was a thing. A highly competitive thing. Like, makes the frenzy of people fighting for top AP’s in this game look like some sort of super tranquil meditation retreat. If you aren’t familiar with it, imagine being able to inspect another character, only what you are inspecting is their entire array of achievements in condensed icon form. When you decided to swing your junk in that game there was a whole stack of checkmarks that revealed exactly which, what, and how many of the raids you’d mastered… along with pretty much every other activity in the game. No alternate methods, 100% verifiable on the spot.

phys.7689:

Torolan.5816:

maddoctor.2738:

Torolan.5816:

So yes, I object to the idea that a significant portion of the playerbase can´t make it whatever they do, how often they try and should not even make it.

Setting aside the weird examples everyone gives, that’s how video game rewards work.

So how do you expect to have a significant player base for raids if you rule out significant portions of the players by lack of skill already? And why did you argue with me earlier in this thread with you stating that anybody can do it if he really tries and puts effort and training into it?

Call me old fashioned if you want, but this reeks indeed very much of elitism for me. Not unfounded elitism probably, but with an attitude I don´t want to be a part of.

i’d just like to point out that mad doctor and conski are incorrect. They conflate rarity, with difficulty, and while there is overlap, they are not always connected.
Choosing a static task as means of achieving rarity will generally fail, because people are better than they think they are. I believe anyone(normal person) can succeed at any raid that i have seen.
Raids are group endeavors, Not everyone has to be the greatest player. Not everyone has to be great at all types of things.

the point of content specific items is NOT rarity it is to encourage achievement and incentivize deep play.

The only way difficulty= rarity is if it is competitive, and only takes the top X players.

I think the problem people have with raids is the same problem people had with Fractals:

Playerbase abuse. Or, as I call it, tough love.

No one wants to be told they suck and are dragging a team down – some people don’t want to be told it so bad they remove themselves from the situation (IE: don’t do raids).

Infact, I’m like that a bit, only different. I don’t want to actually suck and cause the other 9 players to have a bad time cause I can’t get my kitten together.

So me doing raids is up in the air at the moment.

I still don’t come on forums whining that I should be able to solo something and get a raid reward.

I want that reward? I do the content to unlock it.

I simply cannot wrap my head around people who feel differently.

Nike.2631:

maddoctor.2738:

No you won’t be. If it’s legendary armor you will run the content multiple times to get more than 1 sets. If it’s a title you won’t. That’s why armor is more important than a title. Armor has way more replay value than a title.

Than one title sure. But you can just as easily create titles for 1st success, 6th success (equivalent to one armor set), 12th success (equivalent to two sets) and 18th success (equivalent to the almighty 3 full sets… ooo, aaah!).

And that doesn’t look to you like a silly/boring grind which is exactly what we need to reduce?

If you think that just titles are enough motivation to play content in any video game then I have nothing to say on this other than we will get a dead game very soon if they ever did that.

Are you familiar with City of Heroes? ‘Cause man, let me tell you, Badge Hunting was a thing. A highly competitive thing. Like, makes the frenzy of people fighting for top AP’s in this game look like some sort of super tranquil meditation retreat. If you aren’t familiar with it, imagine being able to inspect another character, only what you are inspecting is their entire array of achievements in condensed icon form. When you decided to swing your junk in that game there was a whole stack of checkmarks that revealed exactly which, what, and how many of the raids you’d mastered… along with pretty much every other activity in the game. No alternate methods, 100% verifiable on the spot.

Actually I’m not but I can look into it.

Ohoni.6057:

The answer was in the part you cut out.

Yeah, I got that bit, but what’s the harm in personal housing? I’d think people would like that. That’s not an answer, it’s a non-sequitur.

It is the answer. My point was, that there is a difference between a reward and getting an item. Same as there is a difference between a guild-hall and personal housing.

There is nothing wrong with personal housing, but if you make a guild-hall accessible for every person (not- guild related) you can’t consider it a guild-hall anymore.

It was not a non-sequitur, it was just an example. And in your reaction you proof it yourself by saying “what’s the harm in personal housing?”

Ohoni.6057:

That is what adds the value to that item, that is what makes obtaining it more interesting.

Perhaps, but you don’t need to gild the lily. The item should be good enough to stand on its own merits, it doesn’t need to have added value.

For you maybe not, for many it does.

Ohoni.6057:

In an MMORPG at least. If not, what is the fun of an MMORPG.. You get a game to grind / buy items in that game to change the look that you only use to grind more items? That is not fun, that is boring.. heck that is not even a game. A game gives you challenges to overcome and in an MMO rewards those challenges with items.

Then what have you been doing playing this game every day for the past three years?

Not for the fun of obtaining the items.. the hunt for rewards… An element I very much do like in the other MMO’s (a huge part of MMO’s in general), An element I would love to experience in this game as well.. But I have not been playing that part of the game.. I do guild-stuff and WvW mainly. sometimes I run an event, but the hunt for items I do not do because it’s not really here other than grinding..

Ohoni.6057:

Not rewarding directly from content makes all challenges optional what really means it’s not a game anymore.

That makes no sense, of course all challenges should be optional. That’s part of the fun of an MMO, that it gives you a wide variety of things you can do and you can freely pick and choose the ones that most interest you. If you enjoy high challenge, you do high challenge. If you enjoy casual play, you play casually.

Optional for reaching a goal. maybe I should have added that.

Ohoni.6057:

You are basically asking to remove all those key components of a game or at least make them optional.. leaving you with something that not resembles a game.. but resembles work. We have had that to much already.

The system I described would still involve all those components. It would involve many goals, with their own rules, and their own challenges, some harsh challenges, some easier challenges, and of course interaction would be the most important thing through all of them. the only thing that would be different is that it wouldn’t try to impose a single standard of challenge on all players, it would allow players to choose the activities that suited themselves.

In a way, there are few MMOs out there that are a single “game” by the way you seem to be using the definition (and is not, btw, the definition you cited). An MMO is too complex for that (as are numerous single player games). Most games, especially MMOs, are more like a linked construct of numerous minigames, there is the sPvP minigame, the WvW minigame, the Citadel of Fire minigame, the Twilight Arbor minigame, the Queensdale minigame, the crafting minigame, etc., a lot of different games, some similar, many with almost nothing to do with the others, but all happening in a shared space, where the efforts at completing one can translate over to the others. I think it’s great that there are so many options, but if you’re forced into all of them then it becomes oppressive, and ultimately destructive. The great thing about a large menu is choice, not that you have to eat everything on it until you throw up.

What you are doing here is from moving inside of the context to out of the context then back in it.. Yes there are challenges and games in it.. But obtaining the item is not a game anymore.

maddoctor.2738:

Nike.2631:

maddoctor.2738:

No you won’t be. If it’s legendary armor you will run the content multiple times to get more than 1 sets. If it’s a title you won’t. That’s why armor is more important than a title. Armor has way more replay value than a title.

Than one title sure. But you can just as easily create titles for 1st success, 6th success (equivalent to one armor set), 12th success (equivalent to two sets) and 18th success (equivalent to the almighty 3 full sets… ooo, aaah!).

And that doesn’t look to you like a silly/boring grind which is exactly what we need to reduce?

Wuh- wait. Didn’t you just tell me they should string out raiding by making you do it at least 18 times to get all the armor??! How is that not “a silly/boring grind”? Repeating raid content for progressive rewards is repeating it for progressive rewards.

Nike.2631:

maddoctor.2738:

Nike.2631:

maddoctor.2738:

No you won’t be. If it’s legendary armor you will run the content multiple times to get more than 1 sets. If it’s a title you won’t. That’s why armor is more important than a title. Armor has way more replay value than a title.

Than one title sure. But you can just as easily create titles for 1st success, 6th success (equivalent to one armor set), 12th success (equivalent to two sets) and 18th success (equivalent to the almighty 3 full sets… ooo, aaah!).

And that doesn’t look to you like a silly/boring grind which is exactly what we need to reduce?

Wuh- wait. Didn’t you just tell me they should string out raiding by making you do it at least 18 times to get all the armor??! How is that not “a silly/boring grind”? Repeating raid content for progressive rewards is repeating it for progressive rewards.

I don’t get what you don’t get but let’s make it simple:
When you have to get 18 armors, you can get which armor you want, at any point you want. You might want to get 3 gloves first, then 2 leggings for all you care, in other words you have loads of choice on what reward to go for. With that title suggestion you can’t, you just get progressive rewards.
Understand the difference?

Sure. Do you understand the similarity that you have to do it 18 times to get the final reward?

Nike.2631:

Sure. Do you understand the similarity that you have to do it 18 times to get the final reward?

No you don’t have to do it 18 times to get the final reward. You can do it 6 times and have the final reward if you only want the medium armor, or you might get the light armor multiple times for the chance to change stats on multiple characters without having to use the bank to switch the gear around. There is no similarity.

An you can only do it six times if that the title you want. Having it all is having it all, and can take the same amount of effort/grind whether the rewards are titles, riding-dolyaks, or armor skins. If anything a title for doing it 18 times is more prestigious than three sets of armor because you can display the title proving you’ve finished the raid rewards cycle without having to swap characters twice .

Azumi.9572:

Playerbase abuse. Or, as I call it, tough love.

Tough love would be if they actively worked with the person in order to help them improve.

Most of the time it’s just a paper thin justification to be rude.

Nike.2631:

An you can only do it six times if that the title you want. Having it all is having it all, and can take the same amount of effort/grind whether the rewards are titles, riding-dolyaks, or armor skins. If anything a title for doing it 18 times is more prestigious than three sets of armor because you can display the title proving you’ve finished the raid rewards cycle without having to swap characters twice .

Not really. Where do you put the maximum title? 18 runs? With armor you’ll run it even more times to get more legendary armors available for your characters.

And then we get to the next part, if you are so adamant about having titles as rewards for raids, would you really like if the entire game only had titles as rewards? Do you think titles are enough to drive players to play a game?

Nike.2631:

Kaamau.5341:

Ohoni, let me get this straight, forgive me if I’m misinterpreting, but the rest of the game is being devalued because a game mode is being introduced with its own unique value? Mind you, you can’t acquire any of the unique values any other game modes have from this specific game mode.

“My gold ring is worth less to me because my friend has gold earrings!”

This feels kind of selfish to me.

Actually that almost exactly what people who want exclusive rewards are saying.

“I value this visual flourish NOT because of its visual appeal but because it stands for my accomplishment. If other people have it for any other reason that reduces its value.”

…And I agree — if it’s only purpose is to be a marker of accomplishment, handing it out other ways reduces its value as a marker. See buying Legendaries. Despite their stated purpose in the game as “a testament to your mastery of all aspects of play” they are MEANINGLESS as a marker of game-wide expertise because you can buy them through RMT with zero play expertise.

But skins — armor skins in particular — also have aesthetic value and there are people who would treasure them because of what they look like rather than their scarcity. I’m all for scarce and visible rewards for raiders. I’d just rather that reward not be delivered in the form of armor skins. I’d like to see a giant riding-battle-dolyak you can mount up on using the same tech as the riding broom item (what? Its a Dolyak, they aren’t any faster than moving on foot…) that gets progressively more ornate armor as you clear tiers of accomplishments through repeatedly succeeding on the raids or over coming additional side-challenges. Something GENUINELY UNIQUE for raiders without boxing up and partitioning a set of armor skins solely for their use.

Seriously. Take the Battle-Dolyak. Ride it right thought the middle of Lion’s Arch to the ’ooo’s and ’ahhh’s of awestruck newbs. It’s awesome. There can be raid armor skins too, but make those work like dungeon skins with a means of access for sPvP players.

(and maybe WvW, which remains screwed out of just about all cosmetic rewards)

any visual indicator has aesthetic value. There will always be someone who wants it. Armor isnt really any different than a mount, in fact a great many people would be more upset by a mount than armor.
You are drawing an arbitrary line based on your own ideas about whats you personally think people should want.

In THIS game armor has been behind specific content many times, this game always said that cosmetics was an endgame focus. They have ALWAYS said that armor/weapons would be how players showed mastery (original spvp, legendaries, dungeon armor) Anyone who thought this game was designed to have armor/weapons be a guarantee, was told the opposite by anet.

Nike.2631:

maddoctor.2738:

No you won’t be. If it’s legendary armor you will run the content multiple times to get more than 1 sets. If it’s a title you won’t. That’s why armor is more important than a title. Armor has way more replay value than a title.

Than one title sure. But you can just as easily create titles for 1st success, 6th success (equivalent to one armor set), 12th success (equivalent to two sets) and 18th success (equivalent to the almighty 3 full sets… ooo, aaah!).

If you think that just titles are enough motivation to play content in any video game then I have nothing to say on this other than we will get a dead game very soon if they ever did that.

Are you familiar with City of Heroes? ‘Cause man, let me tell you, Badge Hunting was a thing. A highly competitive thing. Like, makes the frenzy of people fighting for top AP’s in this game look like some sort of super tranquil meditation retreat. If you aren’t familiar with it, imagine being able to inspect another character, only what you are inspecting is their entire array of achievements in condensed icon form. When you decided to swing your junk in that game there was a whole stack of checkmarks that revealed exactly which, what, and how many of the raids you’d mastered… along with pretty much every other activity in the game. No alternate methods, 100% verifiable on the spot.

in this game, titles is not good enough to motivate people.
I also see that in city of heroes, titles could unlock costume pieces and special powers and better stats.

Sounds like in coh badges was a robust and varied system with multiple unique bonuses, with a game culture developed around it being one of the main types of progression. That wouldnt translate for this game without a large overhaul at best.

phys.7689:

any visual indicator has aesthetic value. There will always be someone who wants it. Armor isnt really any different than a mount, in fact a great many people would be more upset by a mount than armor.
You are drawing an arbitrary line based on your own ideas about whats you personally think people should want.

Absolutely. I don’t pretend otherwise. I am describing a request for change that would please/satisfy me and whatever fraction of the playerbase is like me. Notice how I am NOT throwing around imaginary statistics like “We all want” or “The majority feel” or any of that silliness . (I do occasionally use the indefinite ‘some’.)

In THIS game armor has been behind specific content many times, this game always said that cosmetics was an endgame focus. They have ALWAYS said that armor/weapons would be how players showed mastery (original spvp, legendaries, dungeon armor) Anyone who thought this game was designed to have armor/weapons be a guarantee, was told the opposite by anet.

And in THIS game they’re tried time and again to make rewards available through multiple playmodes (not playstyles, modes) — specifically in regards to armor & weapons skins, replicating dungeon armor skins as sPvP rewards without replicating the dungeon rare crafting recipes for example. You don’t see a sustained hue and cry over sPvP not getting recipes, but skins? Skins matter .

Eponet.4829:

Azumi.9572:

Playerbase abuse. Or, as I call it, tough love.

Tough love would be if they actively worked with the person in order to help them improve.

Most of the time it’s just a paper thin justification to be rude.

No player is here to hold your hand. I’m not playing with my teacher, Mother, Father, Sibling or Mentor. I don’t expect someone to spend their time teaching me like I’m some delicate flower who if spoken rudely too will wilt.

Tough love is tough love. It’s motivation to get better.

Player A: “You suck apples. This run is taking forever because of you. Your out of position and you’re way behind where your class should be. Don’t join up again until you learn better. Oh, and your rotation is terrible. Work on that.”

Then Player B, if of Mindset A, gets kittened. He wants to put Player A in his place. He reads guides, changes his build, practices his class more. He gets better.

Then he does a raid again and does excellent.

Then he morphs into a Player A and passes on the tough love to the next struggling player who needs it.

But if Player B is of mindset B (Entitled, Thin-skinned, Whiny, SJW, etc.) (s)he never raids again. Makes posts on forums whining.

If GW2 is full of Mindset B (which it is), raids become easier nerf after nerf. Rewards become non-exclusive. Raids die.

If GW2 is full of Mindset A (which it isn’t), raids remain hard and get harder. Rewards remain exclusive. Raiding becomes a thing.

By the way, Player C is the dude who reads all this happening, feels bad but kinda agrees with Player A. He’d put it in better terms and more delicately (treating Player B like a flower) but he also thinks Player B sucks and needs to improve.

Player C’s way is to spend his own time doing so. If this is the case, it’s handholding.

Teach me everything and I learn nothing.

Nike.2631:

And in THIS game they’re tried time and again to make rewards available through multiple playmodes (not playstyles, modes) — specifically in regards to armor & weapons skins, replicating dungeon armor skins as sPvP rewards without replicating the dungeon rare crafting recipes for example. You don’t see a sustained hue and cry over sPvP not getting recipes, but skins? Skins matter .

That doesn’t change the fact that in THIS game armor and weapon skins have been the major drive for specific content. Lumi armor, glorious armor, legendary glorious armor (or how it’s called), dungeon armor, balthazar back piece, they are all skins, that’s how they give rewards in THIS game.

You want them to make a complete turn and offer Titles instead. If they did that, why have the skins in the first place? Just give extra titles as rewards from content, why bother creating new skins. If you think that a Title is enough to keep players interested, then there is no reason to have new weapons and armor through content, titles are enough right?

Pick one:
A) Titles are enough to justify making content and attract players, therefore there is no need to make any weapon or armor skins anymore (just gemstore items because it’s their revenue model)

B) Titles aren’t enough, therefore exclusive armor and weapon skins should enter the game behind content as rewards to attract players.

Nike.2631:

phys.7689:

any visual indicator has aesthetic value. There will always be someone who wants it. Armor isnt really any different than a mount, in fact a great many people would be more upset by a mount than armor.
You are drawing an arbitrary line based on your own ideas about whats you personally think people should want.

Absolutely. I don’t pretend otherwise. I am describing a request for change that would please/satisfy me and whatever fraction of the playerbase is like me. Notice how I am NOT throwing around imaginary statistics like “We all want” or “The majority feel” or any of that silliness . (I do occasionally use the indefinite ‘some’.)

In THIS game armor has been behind specific content many times, this game always said that cosmetics was an endgame focus. They have ALWAYS said that armor/weapons would be how players showed mastery (original spvp, legendaries, dungeon armor) Anyone who thought this game was designed to have armor/weapons be a guarantee, was told the opposite by anet.

And in THIS game they’re tried time and again to make rewards available through multiple playmodes (not playstyles, modes) — specifically in regards to armor & weapons skins, replicating dungeon armor skins as sPvP rewards without replicating the dungeon rare crafting recipes for example. You don’t see a sustained hue and cry over sPvP not getting recipes, but skins? Skins matter .

dungeon armors in pvp is actually a step down. Its actually the concession made for spvp, who used to have all game armors earnable through that mode alone. The major motivator for putting in spvp wasnt about making dungeon arrmor more acessible, it was the fact that they needed to give them some items of value to fill out the reward tracks, and dungeon armor is an armor type that doesnt effect the economy. It was also a prestige type set, that is seen to have its value as a priceless item

And honestly it has failed at its goal. People are abusing spvp for dungeon progression, who have no desire to spvp.

And they really havent made everything obtainable by multiple means as the game evolved. A bunch of LS1 specific items are locked behind specific content, you saw it again in LS2. They added uniques to tequatl and wurm, halloween 2.

B) Titles aren’t enough… which is 100% unrelated to the rest of the sentence you tried to string on it. There are a LOT of rewards/visual cues other than armor skins that can be used along with titles to create an environment where you can show off your mastery of raids.

And while I’d like for armor skins to keep having multiple avenues like we’ve seen with the Dungeon skins and for any EXCLUSIVELY raid-based rewards to take other forms (like my beloved riding Doyak), I’m not profoundly worried about it. I’m in a large active guild and am an experience raid leader from MMOs that put out way more technical content than GW2 will ever be. I hate putting together raid group but I adore learning/devising raid strats and being the voice on the headset that sets the tempo and directs traffic. I’ll get the skins if I want them. But I’d like the option to WvW like a lunatic or crush some fools in sPvP for them alongside raiding and for the effort put into them to be used to attract and retain more than just the fraction of the player base with that particular passion.

Nike.2631:

B) Titles aren’t enough… which is 100% unrelated to the rest of the sentence you tried to string on it. There are a LOT of rewards/visual cues other than armor skins that can be used along with titles to create an environment where you can show off your mastery of raids.

Then you agree that titles aren’t enough so more exclusive rewards should be put behind specific content. Good to know. You are once again mentioning raids, nobody said anything about raids, if titles are enough to show off as rewards from raids, then they should be enough for everything else in the game. But since you say they are not, we need different rewards on content, therefore we get exclusives.

maddoctor.2738:

Nike.2631:

B) Titles aren’t enough… which is 100% unrelated to the rest of the sentence you tried to string on it. There are a LOT of rewards/visual cues other than armor skins that can be used along with titles to create an environment where you can show off your mastery of raids.

Then you agree that titles aren’t enough so more exclusive rewards should be put behind specific content. Good to know. You are once again mentioning raids, nobody said anything about raids, if titles are enough to show off as rewards from raids, then they should be enough for everything else in the game. But since you say they are not, we need different rewards on content, therefore we get exclusives.

he basically wants non armor based exclusive visual elements. He feels all armor should be attainable by all in many ways in his perfect world.

I personally think people would be just as upset if not moreso, if raids had unique visual effects that are less common than armor.
like auras, mounts or anything else visually cool, that you dont have 100 other options for.

Uh, check the title of the thread. I’m pretty sure raids are implicit in any on-topic discussion going on here.

And I JUST SAID no, in my opinion titles alone are not sufficient as a reward for raids. And IF there are exclusive rewards for raiding, I’d rather those rewards not be armor skins.

phys.7689:

he basically wants non armor based exclusive visual elements. He feels all armor should be attainable by all in many ways in his perfect world.

Thank you. I feel like maybe there some sort of selective reading going on making my position more obscure than usual. If we’re talking about my perfect world, it is shaped by a little bit of pragmatism. I want all armor skins available through similar levels of commitment in the PvE, sPvP, and WvW play modes. To me the redundancy creates a relief valve where you can say “Nope, I ain’t doing that slog” and check to see if either of the other two are more bearable. To me its a plus that other people might reject a different point of any given triangle than I do.

I personally think people would be just as upset if not moreso, if raids had unique visual effects that are less common than armor.
like auras, mounts or anything else visually cool, that you dont have 100 other options for.

Oh, I don’t disagree. Really, I’m not against raiders lording it over the lesser folk from the backs of their Dolyaks. And to be honest I don’t much care about exclusive WEAPON skins, because most of them are IMO overblown godawful eyesores.

Nike.2631:

Uh, check the title of the thread. I’m pretty sure raids are implicit in any on-topic discussion going on here.

So let me get this. You want just raids to have only exclusive titles as rewards but the rest of the game can be is always was with exclusive armor/weapon skins.

Why only raids?

Ok, I’m reasonably convinced I’m being trolled, but sure, one more time because for the most part the conversation has been a pleasant diversion .

We have already have exclusive titles all throughout the game. I have no objection to exclusive titles for specific activities, and think they’d be a fine component of a whole array of rewards for Raiding.

I’d be willing/happy to see some kind of new visual distinction like cosmetic non-speed-increasing mounts much like we’ve already seen in game with the riding broom added to the game and amongst the rewards for successful raiding. This could be exclusive or not as the mood takes the Devs. I would also group unlimited tonics that turn you into the raid bosses in this category.

We’ve seen activity-exclusive weapons skins in game (Fractals) and minis (Liadri). I’ve got no complaint if there were a set of these items added that were primarily or even exclusively raiding rewards. To me its a great way to flesh out the array of rewards Raids might offer.

I DO NOT WANT ARMOR SKINS USED AS EXCLUSIVE RAID REWARDS. Non-exclusive, multiple avenues of acquisition armor skin would be fine. A good idea even, as long as there is also an sPvP and/or WvW way to get them in addition to raiding.

Hopefully I’ve articulated my desires more clearly .

maddoctor.2738:

Nike.2631:

Uh, check the title of the thread. I’m pretty sure raids are implicit in any on-topic discussion going on here.

So let me get this. You want just raids to have only exclusive titles as rewards but the rest of the game can be is always was with exclusive armor/weapon skins.

Why only raids?

hes saying titles in conjunction with other unique visual items. like minis/mounts/auras/animations whatever they can come up with

Nike.2631:

We have already have exclusive titles all throughout the game. I have no objection to exclusive titles for specific activities, and think they’d be a fine component of a whole array of rewards for Raiding.

We also have exclusive armors and weapons in the game too.

We’ve seen activity-exclusive weapons skins in game (Fractals) and minis (Liadri). I’ve got no complaint if there were a set of these items added that were primarily or even exclusively raiding rewards. To me its a great way to flesh out the array of rewards Raids might offer.

So anything but armors is fine with you. Why?

phys.7689:

maddoctor.2738:

Nike.2631:

Uh, check the title of the thread. I’m pretty sure raids are implicit in any on-topic discussion going on here.

So let me get this. You want just raids to have only exclusive titles as rewards but the rest of the game can be is always was with exclusive armor/weapon skins.

Why only raids?

hes saying titles in conjunction with other unique visual items. like minis/mounts/auras/animations whatever they can come up with

And the next question is: are minis/mounts/auras/animations enough? If the answer is yes then they shouldn’t put anything else in the game ever again. Why only raids? That’s the big question.

maddoctor.2738:

We also have exclusive armors and weapons in the game too.

We do, and I’m not thrilled about that, but I also recognize when a ship has sailed. Raids haven’t been set in stone yet, so I think its still (mildly) worth agitating for a reward structure more to my tastes.

So anything but armors is fine with you. Why?

Ultimately it’s about identity in our shared space. Mounts, minis, and titles all float around ‘you’ in your vicinity. Tonics completely replace ‘you’. Even weapons are something ‘you’ are holding. But clothes doth make the man and armor skins have the most direct aesthetic impact on ‘youness’.

maddoctor.2738:

phys.7689:

hes saying titles in conjunction with other unique visual items. like minis/mounts/auras/animations whatever they can come up with

And the next question is: are minis/mounts/auras/animations enough? If the answer is yes then they shouldn’t put anything else in the game ever again. Why only raids? That’s the big question.

Wow. It’s not trolling. You really do see everything I’m saying inside out . It’s not a question of ‘is it enough’. I think it would be, but I’m happy to see armor skins as part of the raiding rewards. I just want the armor skins to not be exclusive to raids and to have alternate means of acquisition. Because of all of those things, I think armor skins are by far the most important and desirable to people who are interested in the aesthetics of their avatar and not just in the proclamation of status that exclusive visual cues provide.

Nike.2631:

Ultimately it’s about identity in our shared space. Mounts, minis, and titles all float around ‘you’ in your vicinity. Tonics completely replace ‘you’. Even weapons are something ‘you’ are holding. But clothes doth make the man and armor skins have the most direct aesthetic impact on ‘youness’.

That’s good and understandable/reasonable, at least you give some “room” for any kind of compromise by not dismissing everything exclusive. It’s funny if you consider the fact that Armor is by far the worse option to “show off” because unlike weapons, minis or titles, it is affected by graphic settings. In a crowd you won’t be seen at all.

I think the question we were all arguing about on this thread for many pages has been wrong all along. The question “should we have exclusive rewards?” isn’t the right one, because I think everyone that ever posted here agreed to some form of exclusivity, be it titles, minis, outfits, armor or weapons.

The real questions are:
What kind of rewards are better suited as exclusives. and the follow up:
Are those exclusives enough to make the content desirable.

Making progress after 30 pages

maddoctor.2738:

Nike.2631:

Ultimately it’s about identity in our shared space. Mounts, minis, and titles all float around ‘you’ in your vicinity. Tonics completely replace ‘you’. Even weapons are something ‘you’ are holding. But clothes doth make the man and armor skins have the most direct aesthetic impact on ‘youness’.

That’s good and understandable/reasonable, at least you give some “room” for any kind of compromise by not dismissing everything exclusive.

I like to think I’m reasonable . Ohoni has never responded to my posts in this thread that I recall, so I suspect they’ve either blocked me in some fashion or they simply consider me a traitor to the cause for not being militant/radical enough .

It’s funny if you consider the fact that Armor is by far the worse option to “show off” because unlike weapons, minis or titles, it is affected by graphic settings. In a crowd you won’t be seen at all.

That’s not a coincidence… it’s a byproduct of the exact crux of the difference in the two use cases: People who want exclusive visual rewards want to be seen by others as determined, capable, and skillful. People who want accessible cosmetic rewards want to be able to see themselves as pretty, scary, or tastefully refined.

I think the question we were all arguing about on this thread for many pages has been wrong all along. The question “should we have exclusive rewards?” isn’t the right one, because I think everyone that ever posted here agreed to some form of exclusivity, be it titles, minis, outfits, armor or weapons.

The real questions are:
What kind of rewards are better suited as exclusives. and the follow up:
Are those exclusives enough to make the content desirable.

Making progress after 30 pages

Indeed. Now you’re asking interesting questions.

I’ve said my piece on the first – visual cues are important, but armor is in a different class from other flags. And just to clarify, if they were to offer access to hairstyles and faces as rewards, I’d be as protective of those as I am of armor.

The second question… wooo. That one’s a doozy. As a successful raid leader in multiple MMOs… I don’t play raids for rewards. Ok, maybe a little when there’s stat advancement on the line that’ll makes the next run more likely to succeed, but really, I play for the pleasure of winning. I’m happiest when I’m there for the gameplay, not the chest. Ok, I also like enough coin to cover the cost of expenses for the evening (travel, consumables). In general all the people I care to convince I won were either in the raid with me or know me well enough to believe me when I’m in the mood to brag or regale them with a story of how we had this awesome time where things went pear-shaped but we pulled it out anyway… And for really awesome runs, posting a good video is way more effective than any in-game reward.

Titles, armor, etc. are for showing off to strangers. Not a big priority to me, but I understand the impulse. I do want a good reward structure – because happy raiders gives me a bigger pool to draw team members from. I want raiders with a variety of outlooks eager to participate. (ooo, enlightened self-interest)

Nike.2631:

maddoctor.2738:

Nike.2631:

Ultimately it’s about identity in our shared space. Mounts, minis, and titles all float around ‘you’ in your vicinity. Tonics completely replace ‘you’. Even weapons are something ‘you’ are holding. But clothes doth make the man and armor skins have the most direct aesthetic impact on ‘youness’.

That’s good and understandable/reasonable, at least you give some “room” for any kind of compromise by not dismissing everything exclusive.

I like to think I’m reasonable . Ohoni has never responded to my posts in this thread that I recall, so I suspect they’ve either blocked me in some fashion or they simply consider me a traitor to the cause for not being militant/radical enough .

It’s funny if you consider the fact that Armor is by far the worse option to “show off” because unlike weapons, minis or titles, it is affected by graphic settings. In a crowd you won’t be seen at all.

That’s not a coincidence… it’s a byproduct of the exact crux of the difference in the two use cases: People who want exclusive visual rewards want to be seen by others as determined, capable, and skillful. People who want accessible cosmetic rewards want to be able to see themselves as pretty, scary, or tastefully refined.

I think the question we were all arguing about on this thread for many pages has been wrong all along. The question “should we have exclusive rewards?” isn’t the right one, because I think everyone that ever posted here agreed to some form of exclusivity, be it titles, minis, outfits, armor or weapons.

The real questions are:
What kind of rewards are better suited as exclusives. and the follow up:
Are those exclusives enough to make the content desirable.

Making progress after 30 pages

Indeed. Now you’re asking interesting questions.

I’ve said my piece on the first – visual cues are important, but armor is in a different class from other flags. And just to clarify, if they were to offer access to hairstyles and faces as rewards, I’d be as protective of those as I am of armor.

The second question… wooo. That one’s a doozy. As a successful raid leader in multiple MMOs… I don’t play raids for rewards. Ok, maybe a little when there’s stat advancement on the line that’ll makes the next run more likely to succeed, but really, I play for the pleasure of winning. I’m happiest when I’m there for the gameplay, not the chest. Ok, I also like enough coin to cover the cost of expenses for the evening (travel, consumables). In general all the people I care to convince I won were either in the raid with me or know me well enough to believe me when I’m in the mood to brag or regale them with a story of how we had this awesome time where things went pear-shaped but we pulled it out anyway… And for really awesome runs, posting a good video is way more effective than any in-game reward.

Titles, armor, etc. are for showing off to strangers. Not a big priority to me, but I understand the impulse. I do want a good reward structure – because happy raiders gives me a bigger pool to draw team members from. I want raiders with a variety of outlooks eager to participate. (ooo, enlightened self-interest)

nah, in most of those cases in other games, i wanted it for myself. Im not really an external validation type. However, a reward that i can get doing something else diminishes my motivation to do specific tasks.

Also armor is not part of your charachters self imo, its a representation of what proffession/race they are, and what they achieved.

tatttos, hairstles, skin colors, those are the things that should be easy access always. But Armani suits, Military clothes, these things are about what you have earned (like armors)

That said as long as items are cool and compelling, it doesnt matter if they want to give those instead, but I wouldnt want to rule out clothes/armor for cosmetic progression rewards as an option.

phys.7689:

nah, in most of those cases in other games, i wanted it for myself. Im not really an external validation type. However, a reward that i can get doing something else diminishes my motivation to do specific tasks.

And there we differ (no worries, that’s normal ). To me the best “drop” from a raid is the experience of beating the raid – and there are no other avenues to get that reward. Nothing diminishes it.

Let me share a story.

A new raid came out in a game I was playing hard. I was bouncing between three different guilds at the time: two good sized raiding guilds and my RL buddies guild. We weren’t big enough to field our own raid groups but were welcome in both the other groups’ raid nights because of our proven reputation for being focused, well-geared, and knowledgeable on raid strats in our roles. I also had the free time and raid-ready characters for all three roles so I could fill in gaps in any composition.

We’d all beaten the first boss on soft-cuddly mode, but hard mode was kicking everybody’s butt. After a few weeks of this I finally end up approaching the raid leaders of both guilds asking if they’d give over some of their top people to me for a week (raid locks being a thing). I put together a hand-picked composition from the hardest of the hard from three guilds. I normally prefer to heal, but I had two healers better than me to play with and my tank was stronger than the second strongest tank available to me so I’m rolling in on my tank. Simultaneous raid-calling and tanking. Yeah, kinda crazy. We zone in and mad with power, I start putting them through drills: tackle some hard-as-heck trash pulls with certain people sitting out (“pretend Zane has DC’d”). People picked so guild A’s tank has to rely solely on Guild C’s healer that they’ve never played with before in a fight that’s lively with two healers. Or half the DPS sitting out so they can see the tanks and healers are still dishing major damage alongside their core roles. My version of a “getting to know you” party, only with bloodthirsty mobs serving the drinks .

I probably don’t have to tell you how the story ends. Ok, fine: In epic whupus form we beat down the boss encounter — all nine stages — on our third try of the evening. One of the other raid leaders put together a multi-angle video set to music where you can hear my voice calling the phases with occasional, tight commentary from the team as they very professionally call for assistance when they’re getting pressured. And cheering. Oh the cheering. Every contributing guild took home players who knew the strats first hand, veterans who would help their in-house teams make it happen in the following weeks.

I don’t have the slightest recollection what came out of the box that evening and I rarely ever log into the game anymore… but the story? Pure GOLD. Loot of the finest kind. I still go back and watch the video from time to time.

phys.7689:

Nike.2631:

maddoctor.2738:

Nike.2631:

Ultimately it’s about identity in our shared space. Mounts, minis, and titles all float around ‘you’ in your vicinity. Tonics completely replace ‘you’. Even weapons are something ‘you’ are holding. But clothes doth make the man and armor skins have the most direct aesthetic impact on ‘youness’.

That’s good and understandable/reasonable, at least you give some “room” for any kind of compromise by not dismissing everything exclusive.

I like to think I’m reasonable . Ohoni has never responded to my posts in this thread that I recall, so I suspect they’ve either blocked me in some fashion or they simply consider me a traitor to the cause for not being militant/radical enough .

It’s funny if you consider the fact that Armor is by far the worse option to “show off” because unlike weapons, minis or titles, it is affected by graphic settings. In a crowd you won’t be seen at all.

That’s not a coincidence… it’s a byproduct of the exact crux of the difference in the two use cases: People who want exclusive visual rewards want to be seen by others as determined, capable, and skillful. People who want accessible cosmetic rewards want to be able to see themselves as pretty, scary, or tastefully refined.

I think the question we were all arguing about on this thread for many pages has been wrong all along. The question “should we have exclusive rewards?” isn’t the right one, because I think everyone that ever posted here agreed to some form of exclusivity, be it titles, minis, outfits, armor or weapons.

The real questions are:
What kind of rewards are better suited as exclusives. and the follow up:
Are those exclusives enough to make the content desirable.

Making progress after 30 pages

Indeed. Now you’re asking interesting questions.

I’ve said my piece on the first – visual cues are important, but armor is in a different class from other flags. And just to clarify, if they were to offer access to hairstyles and faces as rewards, I’d be as protective of those as I am of armor.

The second question… wooo. That one’s a doozy. As a successful raid leader in multiple MMOs… I don’t play raids for rewards. Ok, maybe a little when there’s stat advancement on the line that’ll makes the next run more likely to succeed, but really, I play for the pleasure of winning. I’m happiest when I’m there for the gameplay, not the chest. Ok, I also like enough coin to cover the cost of expenses for the evening (travel, consumables). In general all the people I care to convince I won were either in the raid with me or know me well enough to believe me when I’m in the mood to brag or regale them with a story of how we had this awesome time where things went pear-shaped but we pulled it out anyway… And for really awesome runs, posting a good video is way more effective than any in-game reward.

Titles, armor, etc. are for showing off to strangers. Not a big priority to me, but I understand the impulse. I do want a good reward structure – because happy raiders gives me a bigger pool to draw team members from. I want raiders with a variety of outlooks eager to participate. (ooo, enlightened self-interest)

nah, in most of those cases in other games, i wanted it for myself. Im not really an external validation type. However, a reward that i can get doing something else diminishes my motivation to do specific tasks.

Also armor is not part of your charachters self imo, its a representation of what proffession/race they are, and what they achieved.

tatttos, hairstles, skin colors, those are the things that should be easy access always. But Armani suits, Military clothes, these things are about what you have earned (like armors)

That said as long as items are cool and compelling, it doesnt matter if they want to give those instead, but I wouldnt want to rule out clothes/armor for cosmetic progression rewards as an option.

So would you have an issue with Legendary Armor Skins Set 1 being exclusive to raids for say a year before being added to other areas of the game and Legendary Armor Skins Set 2 being added as a new raid exclusive reward. Then later set 2 going non-exclusive and set 3 being added as exclusive and so on and so on?

Nike.2631:

Ok, I’m reasonably convinced I’m being trolled, but sure, one more time because for the most part the conversation has been a pleasant diversion .

We have already have exclusive titles all throughout the game. I have no objection to exclusive titles for specific activities, and think they’d be a fine component of a whole array of rewards for Raiding.

I’d be willing/happy to see some kind of new visual distinction like cosmetic non-speed-increasing mounts much like we’ve already seen in game with the riding broom added to the game and amongst the rewards for successful raiding. This could be exclusive or not as the mood takes the Devs. I would also group unlimited tonics that turn you into the raid bosses in this category.

We’ve seen activity-exclusive weapons skins in game (Fractals) and minis (Liadri). I’ve got no complaint if there were a set of these items added that were primarily or even exclusively raiding rewards. To me its a great way to flesh out the array of rewards Raids might offer.

I DO NOT WANT ARMOR SKINS USED AS EXCLUSIVE RAID REWARDS. Non-exclusive, multiple avenues of acquisition armor skin would be fine. A good idea even, as long as there is also an sPvP and/or WvW way to get them in addition to raiding.

Hopefully I’ve articulated my desires more clearly .

What you’ve said is “I am fine with every conceivable unique reward being tied to raids except armour” what you haven’t explained is why armour is not allowed to be unique and tied to raids (I am not accepting “because I want to dress up in all the dresses” as an acceptable answer – GW2 is not a fashion simulator).

I’d rather it work like it did in GW1:

You clear an instance, that instance allows you to progress to the next one. You can repeat the first one if you want some specific stuff from it, but you don’t need that specific stuff to try instance 2.

See, WoW’s raid model is a chore. You work your butt off learning a raid, you finally beat it, but now you can’t go on to the next raid without repeatedly grinding the thing you’ve already demonstrated mastery over a bajillion times to get good enough gear.

The GW1 model for story instance progression and raid-tier instances uses a content gate, but in a way that’s sane. It doesn’t require you to grind the content, it simply asks you to prove you can beat step one to prove you can proceed to step 2.

As for the guy asking for more stats? No. The guiding principal of GW1 and GW2 is that you’re not constantly climbing a gear treadmill, and that once you hit end game you don’t just “need better gear” to tackle harder content, but that you have to get better at the game

Skins are the reward model of the game for this reason. They’re there so you have something special that proves you did a thing. You choose content to get the item you want rather than being forced to do content you hate over and over just to get an item you need.

If anet was going to change that, they wouldn’t have gone to all the effort of designing the mastery system to replace that gear treadmill. Your ascended gear is intended to be the end of your stat progression. Further progression isn’t about proving what your gear can do. it’s about proving what you can do, and getting shinies that prove you did it.

maddoctor.2738:

Astralporing.1957:

What for? That was never the argument. The argument you brought up was that there’s no way to give the same reward through two wildly different avenues without making the harder option irrelevant. That has been debunked long ago. Only then you have switched to claiming that you need to see a game that gives everything through all avenues.

That was never actually debunked though. The game was used as an argument due to all the silly examples given by many people over the last pages. Why give examples of sports, restaurants, food nutrition value for children, real military, fire brigade, the police, or anything to promote certain points of view, and not give an example of an actual video game to stay on topic?

I gave you such an example. That you chose to disregard it doesn’t mean you didn’t get it. Only that it didn’t fit your thesis.

maddoctor.2738:

maddoctor.2738:

You should learn what a compromise is. here I will help you:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/compromise

Which is exactly what one side wants, and exactly what the other side doesn’t want. A compromise that offers 100% to one side and 0% to the other is no compromise at all.

No it’s not. One side wants exclusivity for everything, the other for nothing, we get a compromise by having items on both sides, that’s what a compromise is.

Except what you are asking is exclusivity for content you like. Specifically, raids.

But okay, let’s go with your way of thinking. In that case, a “compromise” of having exclusivity in as much as 50% of content (but the one i like, so not raids), would be even better, right? After all, 50%/50% is better than the 10% exclusivity/90% nonexclusivity you have proposed earlier.
Or is it maybe it’s that specific 10% that really interests you, not the remaining 90%?

Kaamau.5341:

“My gold ring is worth less to me because my friend has gold earrings!”

This feels kind of selfish to me.

What about “My gold ring is worth less to me, because someone else managed to get the same one”?

maddoctor.2738:

Not really. Where do you put the maximum title? 18 runs? With armor you’ll run it even more times to get more legendary armors available for your characters.

See? You are advocating grind.

No it’s not. One side wants exclusivity for everything, the other for nothing, we get a compromise by having items on both sides, that’s what a compromise is.

Except that it’s not a compromise, since the one side gets what they want, that some of the things are exclusive, while the other side does not get what they want, that nothing be exclusive. It’s like if you have a vegetarian and a normal person trying to decide on a single food item that they both have to eat, and the normal person says “well how about it just has a little meat in it? You still get mostly not-meat, so that’s a fair compromise, right?”

No you won’t be. If it’s legendary armor you will run the content multiple times to get more than 1 sets. If it’s a title you won’t. That’s why armor is more important than a title. Armor has way more replay value than a title.

But like I said, you would still get the armor, that is on the table. You just wouldn’t have exclusive rights to that armor, other people would be able to get it through other means. So say there’s scenario A, what we assume they already plan to do, and scenario B, what I was suggesting instead (differences in bold):

Scenario A: You have to run the dungeon X number of times to earn your first Legendary Heavy Boot. You get that, unlock the skin that comes with it, can apply that skin to all your Heavy characters but only have one actual heavy boot, and would have to rerun that content 2X more times before you’d have three sets, at which point you really wouldn’t have much more to go for there.

Scenario B: You have to run the dungeon X number of times to earn your first Legendary Heavy Boot. You get that, unlock the skin that comes with it, and gain a title unique to that boot, can apply that skin to all your Heavy characters but only have one actual heavy boot, and would have to rerun that content 2X more times before you’d have three sets, at which point you really wouldn’t have much more to go for there.

That’s it, that’s the only difference, you get all the same stuff, AND a unique title, and that would be the only difference for you as a raider. Now the difference to other players, who are not raiders, is that they would gain an alternate way of earning the armor and skin, but it would be balanced out to be less efficient than a dedicated raider’s ability to earn them, so if you like raiding anyways, that remains your best bet.

And you are still missing the point that rewards = just skins isn’t how everyone thinks of them. Still missing it and still don’t get it, or maybe simply refuse to.

Not really “missing,” so much as “not caring.” I care about as much for those people as I do about your strawmen who want to earn Legendary armor by chatting in Lion’s Arch.

Ohoni, let me get this straight, forgive me if I’m misinterpreting, but the rest of the game is being devalued because a game mode is being introduced with its own unique value? Mind you, you can’t acquire any of the unique values any other game modes have from this specific game mode.

The items being added to raids have a value above and beyond content already existing in other modes. It’s more “my gold ring is being devalued because that guy is getting a platinum ring that was previously unavailable, and continues to be unavailable through any other means.”

Than one title sure. But you can just as easily create titles for 1st success, 6th success (equivalent to one armor set), 12th success (equivalent to two sets) and 18th success (equivalent to the almighty 3 full sets… ooo, aaah!).

But Nike, Mad Doctor doesn’t want to “grind.” He wants to have a reason to repeat the content infinitely, but he doesn’t want rewards that would require him to repeat the content infinitely, because that’s “grind.” Why can’t you think of something that would please him?!

No one wants to be told they suck and are dragging a team down – some people don’t want to be told it so bad they remove themselves from the situation (IE: don’t do raids).

True, and some people don’t want to be a part of any system that cares whether or not they suck, they just want to play the parts of the game that they are good at, and not feel penalized for that. If a player is not good enough to raid, don’t make him raid, problem solved.

I do guild-stuff and WvW mainly. sometimes I run an event, but the hunt for items I do not do because it’s not really here other than grinding..

Ok, cool, so continue to do what you do, and continue to not hunt for items, problem solved.

Not really. Where do you put the maximum title? 18 runs? With armor you’ll run it even more times to get more legendary armors available for your characters.

I would have one title related to each possible piece, another title related to acquiring each full set (ie “all light pieces”), and another related to maxing all 18 pieces, so 22 titles in all. The titles would in fact be considerably better for showing off than the actual armor itself, since 1. You could wear it even if you didn’t actually like the look of the full armor set and wanted to mix and match pieces instead, and 2. If you get a full set of Heavy armor on your Guardian, how will people know how impressed they should be that you also have the full Medium and Light sets, but can’t show them all off on a single character? If you have the “has all three armor sets” title, people would know, and would be soooooo impressed. ^

And of course you would be getting the same amount of actual armor pieces either way, that number would not be changing, so you’d have that too, and if you just wanted to grind out Light Armor boots, you’d end up with the same number of Light Armor boots as under the current system. And no, you wouldn’t be getting the title again on your second or third Light boot, but you wouldn’t be getting the skin again either because that was unlocked with the first one.

And then we get to the next part, if you are so adamant about having titles as rewards for raids, would you really like if the entire game only had titles as rewards? Do you think titles are enough to drive players to play a game?

Again, nobody, nobody is talking about titles being the only rewards. Just of them being the only rewards that are exclusive to a single type of content. You would still be getting plenty of other rewards along the way, just it would be stuff that it would be possible (if more difficult/time consuming) to earn through other methods.

any visual indicator has aesthetic value. There will always be someone who wants it. Armor isnt really any different than a mount, in fact a great many people would be more upset by a mount than armor.

Yeah, I have to say, raid exclusive mounts might really annoy me too. I do like a nice mount. I would care less about it though if you could get mounts elsewhere, but raids offered exclusive mount armor, than I would care about raids offering exclusive character armor. It’d be one step removed, so I’d be better with that. Can’t speak for anyone else on that one though.

No player is here to hold your hand. I’m not playing with my teacher, Mother, Father, Sibling or Mentor. I don’t expect someone to spend their time teaching me like I’m some delicate flower who if spoken rudely too will wilt. . .

And this entire post is a prime example of why a lot of people are sad that raiding is coming to GW2.

You want them to make a complete turn and offer Titles instead. If they did that, why have the skins in the first place?

If titles are not meant to convey accomplishments, then why would they have offered titles in the first place?

Just give extra titles as rewards from content, why bother creating new skins.

Because people like using the skins to customize their characters, they like variety. Again, nobody is talking about reducing the amount of skins you’d be getting from any activity, just in adding your ability to earn them elsewhere, so please stop talking like anyone is removing loot from the game.

Pick one:
A) Titles are enough to justify making content and attract players, therefore there is no need to make any weapon or armor skins anymore (just gemstore items because it’s their revenue model)

B) Titles aren’t enough, therefore exclusive armor and weapon skins should enter the game behind content as rewards to attract players.

C) Armor and weapon skins are awarded by a variety of content, and players can pursue the content that appeals to them, and ignore the content that doesn’t, but any content they choose to do, they get fun rewards for doing it. Titles are all you need to show off that you’ve completed specific content, if that is something you feel the need to do.

What kind of rewards are better suited as exclusives. and the follow up:
Are those exclusives enough to make the content desirable.

Exclusives should never be necessary to “make the content desirable.” If a given type of content is not desirable enough to do without exclusive rewards, then it is not worth applying exclusive rewards to it in the first place. That’s like taking a junker car and throwing in a fancy stereo, it’s still a junker car, and nobody should be driving it. Good content should have rewards to enhance the experience, but you should never be choosing one type of content over another because of the rewards. You should be saying “I love to raid, and the rewards are cool too,” NEVER “I hate this raid, but it’s worth slogging through because I really want that reward.”

For each person who says the latter, they have completely failed, no matter how many people are running the raids.

I like to think I’m reasonable . Ohoni has never responded to my posts in this thread that I recall, so I suspect they’ve either blocked me in some fashion or they simply consider me a traitor to the cause for not being militant/radical enough .

Lol, no, I’ve been reading them, I just didn’t have much that I disagreed with or could add to, so I’ve let you carry your end.

So would you have an issue with Legendary Armor Skins Set 1 being exclusive to raids for say a year before being added to other areas of the game and Legendary Armor Skins Set 2 being added as a new raid exclusive reward.

A year is too long. Three months (starting with the first successful clear) I would be totally fine with, six would be pushing it. I also don’t think that the “non-exclusive” period should be contingent on them adding new raids to the game. They can add them when they’re ready, but players shouldn’t have to wait for that to get access to the existing armors.

Also, still no comments on the idea of Raiders getting exclusive Outfits.

^ actual impressed people may exist only in your head, actual impressed people cannot be guaranteed by this or any other organization, and honestly are quite unlikely.

Coulter.2315:

What you’ve said is “I am fine with every conceivable unique reward being tied to raids except armour” what you haven’t explained is why armour is not allowed to be unique and tied to raids.

Keep reading. Answered in a later post.

(I am not accepting “because I want to dress up in all the dresses” as an acceptable answer – GW2 is not a fashion simulator).

Do you really want to make that claim in a game with over 4 times as many cosmetic options as all of the skills and traits of all 9 professions put together ? A game where hands down the longest running positive thread is about mixing and matching skins? Expression of identity is CRITICAL in MMOs. That you’re not the audience being served doesn’t mean that audience isn’t being served.

@Ononi, the reason Outfits aren’t being spoken about is because of your own reasoning would deny it, because it would be an exclusive reward behind content that doesn’t satisfy everyone’s wants.

We are all expecting these Legendary Armor pieces to be not just useful but to have a unique take on Armor not yet seen in game (I believe they heavily hinted at the armor being more ‘alive’). So a Legendary Outfit would be just as wanted by players much like yourself even though you strictly want Legendary Armor.

It’s not a solution, it’s just showing you just really want Legendary Armor, nothing else.

Nike.2631:

Coulter.2315:

What you’ve said is “I am fine with every conceivable unique reward being tied to raids except armour” what you haven’t explained is why armour is not allowed to be unique and tied to raids.

Keep reading. Answered in a later post.

(I am not accepting “because I want to dress up in all the dresses” as an acceptable answer – GW2 is not a fashion simulator).

Do you really want to make that claim in a game with over 4 times as many cosmetic options as all of the skills and traits of all 9 professions put together ? A game where hands down the longest running positive thread is about mixing and matching skins? Expression of identity is CRITICAL in MMOs. That you’re not the audience being served doesn’t mean that audience isn’t being served.

Oh so you genuinely believe its a fashion simulator and so you MUST go complain about PvP armour, Silverwastes Armour, all skins available through crafting only, anything gained from PS with unique skins… You are being selective and have a WEAK position that betrays not a philosophy but a greed.

Nike.2631:

Coulter.2315:

What you’ve said is “I am fine with every conceivable unique reward being tied to raids except armour” what you haven’t explained is why armour is not allowed to be unique and tied to raids.

Keep reading. Answered in a later post.

(I am not accepting “because I want to dress up in all the dresses” as an acceptable answer – GW2 is not a fashion simulator).

Do you really want to make that claim in a game with over 4 times as many cosmetic options as all of the skills and traits of all 9 professions put together ? A game where hands down the longest running positive thread is about mixing and matching skins? Expression of identity is CRITICAL in MMOs. That you’re not the audience being served doesn’t mean that audience isn’t being served.

Isn’t that bold part is an argument for exclusive rewards? I don’t necessarily mean behind a challenge, but at least belonging to different parts of the game and thus you can tell by someone’s armor what type of player and or person they are.

Of course it can be decided to be completely arbitrary by design. But in a game your game identity is largely based on what you do in-game, and not exactly what you do outside that game. There are some people that completely segregate their “gaming life” and real life and want either one to have nothing to do with the other.