Guild Wars 2

Fun fact.. here is what Anet indirectly said about content / a challenge giving value to an item.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Romke's_Final_Voyage
Trahearne: Nothing worthwhile is easy, or without a price.

So everything you can earn with a brainless grind is nothing worthwhile.

Devata.6589:

Fun fact.. here is what Anet indirectly said about content / a challenge giving value to an item.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Romke's_Final_Voyage
Trahearne: Nothing worthwhile is easy, or without a price.

So everything you can earn with a brainless grind is nothing worthwhile.

Notice there’s nothing here said about exclusivity however.

By a vocal minority on the forums, you said to me a few pages ago i can’t prove that many people want raids of a vocal minority asking them on the forums, so only you can use the forums in your advantage right? You are using 2 standards to justify your claims and devalue mine.

I’m saying “by the same standards.” So fine, if you want to dismiss that point from my side, then the similar points from the other go too, I’m comfortable with that.

You’re confusing boasting with gloating.

Ehhhhhh. . . I think the confusion would be in not considering them synonyms. There are minor distinctions, but too minor to make a difference. Boasting is never a positive trait, it’s at best narcissistic. Quiet pride is dignified, vocal pride is really not.

If someone accomplishes something difficult and shares that, then I will typically congratulate them on it, but if that person is a good person, then he would want as many people to also share in that accomplishment as possible, and not try to figure out ways to make it more difficult for them than it would have to be.

I persist because it’s the exact same thing, I don’t understand why you still don’t get it. Not able to do something because it’s against my belief is even worse than not doing it because I resigned and think I’m unskilled to do it.

I think you’re trying to twist words here, nobody said anything about resigning or thinking yourself unskilled, we were talking about cases where you actually would be physically incapable of the task, or at the very least incapable without an unhealthy amount of physical stress.

I think you’re trying to dismiss that situation entirely and make it out to be all in the other person’s head, presumably because you’ve never in your life run into an obstacle that was actually impossible for you. I congratulate you on your easy life, while assuring you that it is not a common one.

Your blindness example is bad, someone who is unskilled now, might become skilled later, there is nothing actually impossible

In some cases, they might. We are not talking about those cases. We are talking about the cases in which they can not.

Being “unskilled” enough is your own perception and your own fault. If others can do it, so can you.

That’s completely at odds with reality. I don’t even know where to go with that, it’s like saying “sure, you can fly, just keep jumping off that roof until it works.”

I like your suggestions for accessibility, and I’m sure they would help at least some people to progress through the raid, but you have to accept as fact that they won’t matter for some players, there is a ceiling, and if the final challenges of the raid are above that ceiling, they are above that ceiling.

I said it should take equivalent effort.

So you DO want rewards with less effort. Got it.

If you persist with translation errors this badly from English to English, I don’t understand how you expect to have a conversation.

“Equivalent effort” is just an impossibility because effort means different things for different players. A player with skill100 will put 100points of effort to get what he wants, a player with skill50 will need to put 200 points of effort to get the same thing. So how exactly do you count effort (and skill for that matter)? And please don’t say “time”.

It’s the same way the devs decide that a certain activity should reward 1 gold and another rewards 5. If you don’t believe this is possible, then I hate to tell you, but every game with multiple activities and a shared a reward system has been doing it since the dawn of time, including GW2 since the first beta. They certainly have made mistakes, and will continue to do so, but nothing I’m proposing would be out of line with the reward mechanisms already in place.

When trying to balance a reward system, you have to weigh the factors of difficulty (min/max/average), AND time (min/max/average), AND player engagement (light/heavy/active), and arrive at some fair value. The hardcore players will inevitably feel like the casual players are getting it too easy, and the casual players will inevitably feel that the hardcore players are just getting handed stuff in way less time than it should take, but if the balance is close enough then both will be reasonably satisfied with what they receive for their time and effort.

It’s the entire playerbase that matters and if you can get the vast majority of what you want by doing any type of content.

Yes, that’s my point, now what’s yours?

Then you put a select few behind exclusive content to cater to the other side, having a small amount of items that way is in no way invalidating the fact that the majority is not exclusive. Therefore, by using let’s say 90/10 percentage you appeal to both, which is the compromise. Individual players that might want that 10% is irrelevant, unless you can prove that the entire playerbase wants that 10%

I think it’s fair to say that in most such cases, more than the 10% that can access the item will want the item. Not all, most likely, but well more than those with access to it.

I post because you do.

Well there you go.

If it supports his argument then the vocal forum minority exists and has merit, if it’s against his argument then the vocal forum minority doesn’t exist and holds no merit.

I just don’t believe in unilateral disarmament. I’ll use flawed tools if the other person is using them, while pointing out that flaw, so maybe we can both stop using them.

These days you get rewards for logging in (I remember threads where people talked about rewards where this option was brought up as a joke.. an honestly, a reward for logging in is a joke), and when doing any content, you bags are getting filled up with bags full of stuff.

I wasn’t shocked by it, another game I was playing had them well sooner. It’s not a bad idea really. It’s not that players really need log in rewards, but it’s incentive to get people to at least load up the client every day, and hey, if they have the client open, they might as well clear their daily missions. And while they’re at it, their friends are on, maybe run a dungeon or fight a world boss. It’s a clever bit of psychology that makes it much more likely that people are going to be playing the game than without it. Without dailies, then players would be much more comfortable playing just a day or two a week, and much more likely to “fall off the wagon,” and once players fall off, they are much more likely to stay off.

Now, I would be as horrified as you if they attached actual really awesome rewards to the daily log-in, but they haven’t, the ones they have serve the roll well enough.

I have never ever played any game that did gave you so many ‘rewards’. It’s come to a point, that collecting all the rewards is giving you carpal tunnel syndrome.

Check out Marvel Heroes. Not only do they give you daily rewards, but every time you kill a “champ” mob, it throws a dozen or more “Masterpiece” armor pieces on the ground, and maybe also an exotic accessory or armor piece, plus piles of gold. The amount of loot they throw is so excessive, that they added a “Vacuum” key that sucks it all up, auto-selling it for 10% of it’s vendor value, leaving only the “Rare+ goods” by default. Given their smaller inventory sizes, on a good day you could fill your inventory from one or two bosses (and you can fight up to six of them at a time) if you didn’t use the vacuum function, or after maybe a couple dozen bosses (like 20 minutes or less) if you only collect the “Rare+” stuff. It works for them though, the real balancing factor they have is pure RNG, in that stats on each item are highly variable, so even if you get the item you want, it might have very low stats relative to its potential, and you’ll try to find a new one with better rolls.

And again, if you lock specific rewards behind specific content all over the place. Most items will be available for people, but for those who like / are good in JP’s the exclusive JP rewards would be the wants they would / could go for while the raid-players have they rewards.

But again, we have the inevitable situation where the guy who loves JPs really couldn’t care less about the JP armor, but really wants the raid armor, while a guy who hates JPs but loves raids really doesn’t like the raid armor, but loves the JP armor. I know, I know, you couldn’t care less whether either of these players is happy, but ANet should.

Not to mention that I have not seen many of those complains.. heck the content with those rewards, Liadri, SAB, MF have mainly been applauded and has been use as examples we should get more of, or that should come back.

It’s called “confirmation bias,” look it up.

Ohoni.6057:

I think you’re trying to twist words here, nobody said anything about resigning or thinking yourself unskilled, we were talking about cases where you actually would be physically incapable of the task, or at the very least incapable without an unhealthy amount of physical stress.

No, that was NEVER EVER the point, that’s something you came up with just now. Your entire point was about players who can’t do the content, that includes players who THINK they can’t do it, those who can’t do it because they don’t want to put the effort (but are physically very capable of doing it) and the very small amount of players who are indeed physically ill and can’t do it no matter how many times they try.

I’m sure you can do better than that and find actual arguments. I presented to you the flaw with your reasoning now I demand a respectful answer, or at least to admit you were wrong. No, you won’t change the subject now that you are out of arguments, the subject never changed.

But I still don’t get it. If that was your actual initial argument, then why in the world are you saying YOUR freaking side is the majority of the population in the game? Are the players who are physically incapable of playing the game really the majority of players in this game?

And about your remark on my life, I don’t need a life’s lesson from a spoiled rich brat who wants everything handed to them like in their actual real life. OK?

Astralporing.1957:

Devata.6589:

Fun fact.. here is what Anet indirectly said about content / a challenge giving value to an item.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Romke's_Final_Voyage
Trahearne: Nothing worthwhile is easy, or without a price.

So everything you can earn with a brainless grind is nothing worthwhile.

Notice there’s nothing here said about exclusivity however.

That was also not my point with this quote.

In this topic something was said about how all items should only require low skill to obtain them. But that also devalues the item value.. and that was the point here.

The topic really talks about two things.. locking rewards behind a challenge and making rewards exclusive to content. This comment only addressed that first element.

Ohoni.6057:

By a vocal minority on the forums, you said to me a few pages ago i can’t prove that many people want raids of a vocal minority asking them on the forums, so only you can use the forums in your advantage right? You are using 2 standards to justify your claims and devalue mine.

I’m saying “by the same standards.” So fine, if you want to dismiss that point from my side, then the similar points from the other go too, I’m comfortable with that.

Yet you base your entire argument on how people would want a system like the one you are suggesting, and you have absolutely no base to prove that. Even if we look at the forums alone, i’ve not seen more then 3 or 4 people even remotely agree with you. And maybe some more casual players would like this idea, and they aren’t on the forums, but again, you have NO stats at all to prove it, and the game currently doesn’t follow your system, and the more popular content updates all had exclusives behind them. You cannot claim that people support you in any way, so don’t, argue from you and stop claiming you have large support.

Nice to know that GW2 is bringing Raids though the trailer doesn’t really say much other than you have to know how to maneuver the right way to avoid getting killed. And the fact that it’s 10-man is a good start but still underwhelming for guilds with a lot of members. Here’s to hoping that as time goes on and if the GW2 version of raids are well-received, we’d have raids that can accomodate maybe 20 man?

No, that was NEVER EVER the point, that’s something you came up with just now. Your entire point was about players who can’t do the content, that includes players who THINK they can’t do it, those who can’t do it because they don’t want to put the effort (but are physically very capable of doing it) and the very small amount of players who are indeed physically ill and can’t do it no matter how many times they try.

No, MY point, at least through that line of discussion, was about players who couldn’t do the content, which is why I said “players who can’t do it,” rather than if I’d meant “players who don’t want to do it,” in which case I would have said “players who don’t want to do it.” Words are funny like that, sometimes they have meanings attached.

And don’t chalk it up to “a small number of people who are physically ill,” I’m not just talking about people with serious physical issues like MS, Parkinson’s, Arthritis, Carpal Tunnel, etc., I’m talking about visibly healthy people, who just do not have the level of dexterity or mental focus needed to perform at the level needed by a high skill game. If anyone could do it, everyone would. I really hate these condescending attitudes of “oh, everyone can do it, and if they don’t, then they just aren’t trying hard enough.” No. Have some respect for your fellow human beings and their limitations.

Now, people who don’t want to do it are an entirely different matter, and discussed elsewhere in the discussion, but I also believe that their desire not to do that sort of content is a worthwhile reason to not make them do it. But again, separate argument and not what we were discussing in that first exchange, as I made clear numerous times.

But I still don’t get it. If that was your actual initial argument, then why in the world are you saying YOUR freaking side is the majority of the population in the game? Are the players who are physically incapable of playing the game really the majority of players in this game?

Playing the game at the level currently required? Heavens no, most players are fine with that. But incapable of playing portions of the game if the difficult curve is ramped significantly? Then yeah, that would likely be the majority, by quite a bit. I mean, if they included Liadri-level personal challenges into the raid, that would exclude most of the players currently in the game. If they required you to play 4+ hours in a single go, that would likely exclude most of the players currently in the game (for a combination of health and logistical issues). We don’t know how much of a burden raids will place on the players, but it could very easily rise to the level that the majority of players would be incapable of shouldering that burden.

And about your remark on my life, I don’t need a life’s lesson from a spoiled rich brat who wants everything handed to them like in their actual real life. OK?

Lol, where did you ever get the impression that I was rich?

Yet you base your entire argument on how people would want a system like the one you are suggesting, and you have absolutely no base to prove that.

My basis is the population currently playing, and therefore likely comfortable with the game in its current state. I look at the population, not what individual members say, but what the players actually do, and think it’s reasonable to believe that they are content with content of the style that GW2 currently provides. I believe that the people who currently play the game, do so because it is NOT the sort of high pressure, high stakes game that raiding typically involves. If they did want that sort of game, they have plenty of options for it, so why would they be playing GW2 instead?

Again though, I welcome additional information, and if it happens to contradict my premise, then that’s fine.

Even if we look at the forums alone, i’ve not seen more then 3 or 4 people even remotely agree with you.

Yes, which is representative of nothing more than that, which is why we don’t use forum posts as a measure of anything. It’s worth noting, on the other hand, that there are also only 4-6 of your guys that actually disagree with me too, so if you are going to use forum numbers, keep in mind that they aren’t far apart, which is rather exceptional considering that this is a thread about raiding, and therefore you would expect to have overwhelming support of raids.

You cannot claim that people support you in any way, so don’t, argue from you and stop claiming you have large support.

I never claimed that I definitely do. I claimed that I believe that I do, and I do believe that. You don’t have to agree, and I never said that you do have to agree. If I’m wrong, then I’m wrong, but you telling me that I’m wrong without being able to back it up isn’t going to convince you, nor do I expect that me telling you I’m right is going to convince you that I am. That is not the point.

Ohoni.6057:

No, that was NEVER EVER the point, that’s something you came up with just now. Your entire point was about players who can’t do the content, that includes players who THINK they can’t do it, those who can’t do it because they don’t want to put the effort (but are physically very capable of doing it) and the very small amount of players who are indeed physically ill and can’t do it no matter how many times they try.

No, MY point, at least through that line of discussion, was about players who couldn’t do the content, which is why I said “players who can’t do it,” rather than if I’d meant “players who don’t want to do it,” in which case I would have said “players who don’t want to do it.” Words are funny like that, sometimes they have meanings attached.

And don’t chalk it up to “a small number of people who are physically ill,” I’m not just talking about people with serious physical issues like MS, Parkinson’s, Arthritis, Carpal Tunnel, etc., I’m talking about visibly healthy people, who just do not have the level of dexterity or mental focus needed to perform at the level needed by a high skill game. If anyone could do it, everyone would. I really hate these condescending attitudes of “oh, everyone can do it, and if they don’t, then they just aren’t trying hard enough.” No. Have some respect for your fellow human beings and their limitations.

Now, people who don’t want to do it are an entirely different matter, and discussed elsewhere in the discussion, but I also believe that their desire not to do that sort of content is a worthwhile reason to not make them do it. But again, separate argument and not what we were discussing in that first exchange, as I made clear numerous times.

But I still don’t get it. If that was your actual initial argument, then why in the world are you saying YOUR freaking side is the majority of the population in the game? Are the players who are physically incapable of playing the game really the majority of players in this game?

Playing the game at the level currently required? Heavens no, most players are fine with that. But incapable of playing portions of the game if the difficult curve is ramped significantly? Then yeah, that would likely be the majority, by quite a bit. I mean, if they included Liadri-level personal challenges into the raid, that would exclude most of the players currently in the game. If they required you to play 4+ hours in a single go, that would likely exclude most of the players currently in the game (for a combination of health and logistical issues). We don’t know how much of a burden raids will place on the players, but it could very easily rise to the level that the majority of players would be incapable of shouldering that burden.

And about your remark on my life, I don’t need a life’s lesson from a spoiled rich brat who wants everything handed to them like in their actual real life. OK?

Lol, where did you ever get the impression that I was rich?

Yet you base your entire argument on how people would want a system like the one you are suggesting, and you have absolutely no base to prove that.

My basis is the population currently playing, and therefore likely comfortable with the game in its current state. I look at the population, not what individual members say, but what the players actually do, and think it’s reasonable to believe that they are content with content of the style that GW2 currently provides. I believe that the people who currently play the game, do so because it is NOT the sort of high pressure, high stakes game that raiding typically involves. If they did want that sort of game, they have plenty of options for it, so why would they be playing GW2 instead?

Again though, I welcome additional information, and if it happens to contradict my premise, then that’s fine.

Even if we look at the forums alone, i’ve not seen more then 3 or 4 people even remotely agree with you.

Yes, which is representative of nothing more than that, which is why we don’t use forum posts as a measure of anything. It’s worth noting, on the other hand, that there are also only 4-6 of your guys that actually disagree with me too, so if you are going to use forum numbers, keep in mind that they aren’t far apart, which is rather exceptional considering that this is a thread about raiding, and therefore you would expect to have overwhelming support of raids.

You cannot claim that people support you in any way, so don’t, argue from you and stop claiming you have large support.

I never claimed that I definitely do. I claimed that I believe that I do, and I do believe that. You don’t have to agree, and I never said that you do have to agree. If I’m wrong, then I’m wrong, but you telling me that I’m wrong without being able to back it up isn’t going to convince you, nor do I expect that me telling you I’m right is going to convince you that I am. That is not the point.

Sorry, the idea that everything obtainable in game must be obtainable by everyone with any type of disability is not feasible.
The game design is built on certain assumptions of normal ability. You cant design basketball around paraplegic, it just doesnt work. Just like the game wont run on windows 95 there are some minimum requirements to access the game.

Also that idea stems from your false idea that the game exists to give you cosmetic items. It does not. The purpose of items in game, is to enhance play.

Even with your line of thinking the same can be aaid of any content in the game. There are people who cannot do repetitive activities they find boring. Add.

And have you ever done a raid? Its not impossible for anyone with a minimum level of ability. It ends up being about paying attention and following instructions. Its not pro basketball, or grandmaster chess, its a play. For some of the members its simply about following instructions. Run now, stand close now, hit that switch. Use cc now.
Just by the virtue of being 10 man content, it cant even be the hardest thing (from a personal skill level) in the game. The minimum skill required will mostly be about coordination and knowledge.

The biggest obstacle will be finding groups of people to play and learn with. Anyone who has that and baseline abilities can succeed at it.

And if dont have that, you dont have it, the purchase of the box guarantees you experiences and a chance, not success or every possible reward. The same as buying a bicycle, a basketball or a chess set.

The very basis of your argument ia false. Just buying the game and attempting to play should not entitle you to all rewards. It never does in any game

Ohoni.6057:

My basis is the population currently playing, and therefore likely comfortable with the game in its current state. I look at the population, not what individual members say, but what the players actually do, and think it’s reasonable to believe that they are content with content of the style that GW2 currently provides. I believe that the people who currently play the game, do so because it is NOT the sort of high pressure, high stakes game that raiding typically involves. If they did want that sort of game, they have plenty of options for it, so why would they be playing GW2 instead?

The game in it’s current state has tons of unique rewards aswell. In my eyes unique rewards are far more embedded into this game then “no raiding” is. Yet somehow you want to change all that, the core reward system of the entire game, but sure raiding being added is far worse. I don’t see how anyone can oppose adding more things to do in the game. If you don’t want to do it, don’t raid, it’s as simple as that.
If you really believe that GW2 as it currently is should stay like this and offer just the content it does now, because people like it, then it should also keep it’s reward system, because people seem to like that aswell right? If that is so, then this is purely about raiding, something you claimed it wasn’t. If this is false then you are again applying double standards for what you like and what you don’t like.

Is it so kitten hard to make a decent argument for what you would want without making unfounded claims about what the playerbase wants? If you need to justify it like that it’s probally not a very good argument in the first place.

Ohoni.6057:

Yes, which is representative of nothing more than that, which is why we don’t use forum posts as a measure of anything. It’s worth noting, on the other hand, that there are also only 4-6 of your guys that actually disagree with me too, so if you are going to use forum numbers, keep in mind that they aren’t far apart, which is rather exceptional considering that this is a thread about raiding, and therefore you would expect to have overwhelming support of raids

Learn to count, over 40 different people in the last 15 pages alone. Stop making up stuff. Seriously, this is like arguing vs a creationist.

Ohoni just can’t seem to accept the fact anet , along with MANY others debating on this topic absolutely hate his system of reward structure..

Once again, thank god you are not in charge of making decisions for this game Ohoni.

You clearly believe that anet is going in the wrong direction with raids and exclusive rewards.

News flash, your opinion/suggestion isn’t going to change a kitten thing…Anet has their goal/vision and its happening THEIR WAY. NOT OHONI’S WAY.

There are WAY more than 4-6 ppl disagreeing with your model Ohoni.
There is not even 4-6 ppl supporting your idea, the most important being ANET. They CLEARLY are not following your model and thank god they aren’t.

Keep on spewing your agenda, because for whatever reason, you still believe anet is going to change it to follow your glorious model. Its NOT. deal with it. If you don’t want to deal with it, quit the game, because crying about it “not being the way I want it!” isn’t going to work, and it doesn’t deserve to work.

Sorry, the idea that everything obtainable in game must be obtainable by everyone with any type of disability is not feasible.
The game design is built on certain assumptions of normal ability. You cant design basketball around paraplegic, it just doesnt work. Just like the game wont run on windows 95 there are some minimum requirements to access the game.

Yes, and again, I specifically said that I wasn’t talking about balancing around the disabled, I was talking about balancing around those with the “disability” of being average, of being completely incapable of being the best. If the content is balanced around high skill level, then it will necessarily exclude those who are not “the best,” which is most people. This is not their choice, it is how they were born. They can improve themselves to a certain point, but not indefinitely. this should never be confused with a lack of effort or will, it is a lack of potential. If you say “anyone can ‘git gud,’ they just have to try hard,” that’s just very insulting to those who can’t.

Also that idea stems from your false idea that the game exists to give you cosmetic items. It does not. The purpose of items in game, is to enhance play.

No, they are to enhance fun. If they don’t serve that function then they have failed.

Even with your line of thinking the same can be aaid of any content in the game. There are people who cannot do repetitive activities they find boring. Add.

Sure, and they shouldn’t have to.

And have you ever done a raid? Its not impossible for anyone with a minimum level of ability.

Have you ever done a GW2 raid? You have no idea what they do or don’t entail. I know what raids in other games are like, I know that in WoW there is a lot of bar watching and in some of them you can practically stand around and activate powers in rotation, but then I’ve played other games like Marvel Heroes where if you aren’t paying attention for half a second you can get one-shot. GW2 is an action RPG, when they try to make difficult content, I expect a lot of movement, a lot of actively avoiding attacks, and I expect them to leave out the “safe zones” where you can just plug away at the mob from maximum range. There is a lot of content in GW2 that you can “cheat” that way, but I think if they are serious about “challenging content,” they’ll try to plug as many of those leaks as possible. Have you tried to melee the Golem MKII? It’s hardly impossible or anything, but there’s certainly a lot more challenge to it than standing on the crates.

It’s possible that GW2 raids will be welcoming to players of all skill levels, but I’m not going to bet anything on that.

The biggest obstacle will be finding groups of people to play and learn with. Anyone who has that and baseline abilities can succeed at it.

And also, shifting the discussion a bit, the free time to do it. We still have no idea what the time investment on these will be, but they could even last more than an hour at a time, and many GW2 players just cannot invest that much time into a single continuous activity, for reasons entirely outside of their control. Again, maybe GW2 raids are better than that, but I am not overly hopeful.

And if dont have that, you dont have it, the purchase of the box guarantees you experiences and a chance, not success or every possible reward. The same as buying a bicycle, a basketball or a chess set.

And nobody is accusing them of false advertising or anything, nobody is saying that they guaranteed anything. But their job is to make as many players as they can, as happy as they can, and any place they fail to do that, they should work to correct it, whether they are legally obligated to or not. That should be their goal, and if they miss it, then they should consider themselves responsible for making it right.

The game in it’s current state has tons of unique rewards aswell. In my eyes unique rewards are far more embedded into this game then “no raiding” is.

The unique-to-content rewards are relatively few and far between. I don’t think they really drive much player attention.

I don’t see how anyone can oppose adding more things to do in the game. If you don’t want to do it, don’t raid, it’s as simple as that.

And I’ve said, quite repeatedly, that I am 100% with you on that, so long as they don’t give me reason to go in there (such as unique armor skins). If they do lock unique armor skins behind the raid, then I am stuck with the choice of having to do content that I absolutely do not enjoy, or never receiving that item that I want, so it’s lose/lose either way. Simple as that.

Ohoni just can’t seem to accept the fact anet , along with MANY others debating on this topic absolutely hate his system of reward structure..

I haven’t heard a single dev comment on this yet.

News flash, your opinion/suggestion isn’t going to change a kitten thing…Anet has their goal/vision and its happening THEIR WAY. NOT OHONI’S WAY.

Sure, but they believe that players will like the way they’re going, and if that turns out to not be the case, they might change their course, as they have on numerous features over the length of the game. Right?

There are WAY more than 4-6 ppl disagreeing with your model Ohoni.

I was talking mostly about the last few pages, but yeah, I would expect more than 4-6 people disagreeing with me overall, but I would also expect a lot more than that agreeing with me, especially outside of a thread devoted to raids.

Ohoni.6057:

And don’t chalk it up to “a small number of people who are physically ill,” I’m not just talking about people with serious physical issues like MS, Parkinson’s, Arthritis, Carpal Tunnel, etc., I’m talking about visibly healthy people, who just do not have the level of dexterity or mental focus needed to perform at the level needed by a high skill game. If anyone could do it, everyone would. I really hate these condescending attitudes of “oh, everyone can do it, and if they don’t, then they just aren’t trying hard enough.” No. Have some respect for your fellow human beings and their limitations.

I was certain you would say that, but that’s garbage and you know it. Let me tell you of a little story, you should know similar ones by now but you choose to “forget”:
During BWE we had Ascalon Catacombs Story Mode, I did it with a team and we had a bazillion wipes, in the end we were about to give up on it. Same with Ascalon Catacombs P1 where you have to defend Hodgins from the gravelings. Giganticus Lupicus, Subject Alpha, Simin, Liadri, revamped Tequatl, Marionette, Scarlet’s Hologram, all typical examples. Do you know how many times during those fights I said I didn’t have the dexterity, the skill or the mental focus to finish them? By your definition I was in that group once, then I went to the other, there is no clear distinction between the two groups and don’t you deny it.

Lack of skill and lack of mental focus CAN be fixed/improved in a game, they change over time, same goes with skill. You aren’t born with a specific skill level that will stay fixed for your entire lifetime playing a game, get over this, it’s not a fixed thing that can be quantified and identified.

Playing the game at the level currently required? Heavens no, most players are fine with that. But incapable of playing portions of the game if the difficult curve is ramped significantly? Then yeah, that would likely be the majority, by quite a bit. I mean, if they included Liadri-level personal challenges into the raid, that would exclude most of the players currently in the game. If they required you to play 4+ hours in a single go, that would likely exclude most of the players currently in the game (for a combination of health and logistical issues). We don’t know how much of a burden raids will place on the players, but it could very easily rise to the level that the majority of players would be incapable of shouldering that burden.

I will repeat the question which you dodged:
Are the players who are physically incapable of playing the game really the majority of players in this game? Since that is your entire point as explained above.
And by physical, we mean real physical limitation, not talking about skill, or dexterity, or mental focus, those are completely irrelevant, are the players with real physical limitations the majority as you claim?

During BWE we had Ascalon Catacombs Story Mode, I did it with a team and we had a bazillion wipes, in the end we were about to give up on it. Same with Ascalon Catacombs P1 where you have to defend Hodgins from the gravelings. Giganticus Lupicus, Subject Alpha, Simin, Liadri, revamped Tequatl, Marionette, Scarlet’s Hologram, all typical examples.

And yet you did it, didn’t you? That proves that you were not incapable of completing it. That does not prove that anyone is capable of completing it. It does nothing to support your claim. Everyone has stories of them having a tough time, persevering, and then eventually succeeding, that doesn’t mean that success was always an option for everyone.

Now it’s true, the bigger the group, the less the individual matters, and in large scale content, it’s possible to gets carried along in the flow even if you’re providing no benefit to the group, and perhaps even a significant burden due to requiring more help than you’re providing. And maybe such people will find groups that are cool with that, and will drag them along in a papoose if necessary, and they’ll make it out the other side. Fine. but on a personal level, people have their individual limits of skill, and saying that if someone fails at something, it’s because they just aren’t trying hard enough, is extremely disrespectful to people with lower limits than your own.

Lack of skill and lack of mental focus CAN be fixed/improved in a game, they change over time, same goes with skill. You aren’t born with a specific skill level that will stay fixed for your entire lifetime playing a game, get over this, it’s not a fixed thing that can be quantified and identified.

No, but there are limits. A dumb kid, though a lot of studying and very hard work, can eventually become as educated and capable as a relatively smart kid can do with no real effort, but he can never become a genius, And don’t trot out geniuses who had bad grades, bad grades didn’t mean they were any dumber as kids, they just didn’t care to achieve. Everyone’s born with a baseline and a maximum. With some people, they start low but can end up high. With others, they start high and can go higher still, with yet others, they start low and really can’t get much higher than that, no matter how they push it, and with others they start fairly high but really can’t do much more than that. It’s not an infinitely elastic proposition.

Just trust that if a goal is set that is even remotely challenging to those near the top of the skill spectrum, then those near the bottom would never be able to complete it through their own contributions.

Are the players who are physically incapable of playing the game really the majority of players in this game? Since that is your entire point as explained above.

Physically incapable as in they have a disability that prevents them from leading a normal life? No. Physically incapable as in they lack the physical and mental dexterity to rise to the level required by some hardcore videogame challenges? Physically incapable in that they are literally unable to set aside several hours at a time for constant serious content? Yes, I definitely do think that the majority of GW2 players fall into at least one of those categories. That’s one of the great things about GW2 relative to other games, it does not place those burdens on you.

Even if you disagree that the majority of players fill one of those categories, how many are you willing to write off? 5%? 10%? 25%? 49%? How much of the population are you willing to say “oh, you can’t do it? Too bad, so sad. How ya like mah shiny armor?”

And by physical, we mean real physical limitation, not talking about skill, or dexterity, or mental focus, those are completely irrelevant, are the players with real physical limitations the majority as you claim?

Dexterity and mental focus are as much a physical limitation as anything. You’re only capable of achieving what your meatsack can produce.

Ohoni.6057:

And yet you did it, didn’t you? That proves that you were not incapable of completing it. That does not prove that anyone is capable of completing it. It does nothing to support your claim. Everyone has stories of them having a tough time, persevering, and then eventually succeeding, that doesn’t mean that success was always an option for everyone.

Where do you draw the line and say “that’s enough for me”? Does nothing to support my claim? Really? If I could have it without trying (like your whole suggestion) I wouldn’t try it until I got it, there would be no point in it. That’s why exclusivity helped with all those encounters, in most cases you don’t even know if you are capable of finishing that content. I didn’t want to go in depth with the examples because I thought it was obvious but I guess I was wrong and I need to provide some more information and examples.

There is a fight with someone called Kholer in AC, back in the day his spin attack was a killer and players needed reflexes to avoid it. Now, by using high dps builds he doesn’t even get the chance to use his attack. In the Liadri fight you could use a condition heavy build and kill her much more easily, use endurance regen food/build or even use life stealing although that was probably an exploit. In the Deadeye fight you could very easily win by using a blind heavy D/P Thief that took next to zero skill to pull off. In the AC gravelings encounters, using a couple of Frostbows significantly reduces the difficulty of the encounter. In the uncategorized fractal, having a Guardian with lots of reflects makes the harpies much easier to deal with.

In other words, dexterity and mental focus or any kind of “skill” can be compensated for and reduce the need for them by using basic reading comprehension skills. You can search for naked runs, solo runs, afk runs of various pieces of content that very well illustrate that dexterity, “skill” and mental focus aren’t as much needed in this game as they are in an FPS game. And because most of the content is party based, you can always ask for help. Although you might not admit it, this is a friendly community, ready to provide information and help fellow players.

This isn’t Call of Duty.

Just trust that if a goal is set that is even remotely challenging to those near the top of the skill spectrum, then those near the bottom would never be able to complete it through their own contributions.

If it was an FPS game maybe, if it was a solo game maybe. But non of that holds true in an MMORPG.

Physically incapable as in they lack the physical and mental dexterity to rise to the level required by some hardcore videogame challenges?

That doesn’t make any sense as explained above. And once again, this isn’t Call of Duty. There are always ways to compensate for the lack of physical skills, the only “skill” you need is basic reading comprehension.

Even if you disagree that the majority of players fill one of those categories, how many are you willing to write off? 5%? 10%? 25%? 49%? How much of the population are you willing to say “oh, you can’t do it? Too bad, so sad. How ya like mah shiny armor?”

It’s not the majority of the population as you claim. Not even 50%. Someone already said it earlier:

Sorry, the idea that everything obtainable in game must be obtainable by everyone with any type of disability is not feasible.
The game design is built on certain assumptions of normal ability. You cant design basketball around paraplegic, it just doesnt work. Just like the game wont run on windows 95 there are some minimum requirements to access the game.

And one more thing, let’s say that Guild Wars 2 is a more “casual game”, that has a lot of casual gamers playing it (one of the main points of this thread)

Here is a definition of casual gamer from wikipedia:

The term “casual gamer” is often used for gamers who primarily play casual games, but can also refer to gamers who play less frequently than other gamers. Casual gamers may play games designed for ease of gameplay, or play more involved games in short sessions, or at a slower pace than hardcore gamers. The types of game that casual gamers play vary, and they are less likely own a dedicated video game console. Casual gamer demographics vary greatly from those of other video gamers, as the typical casual gamer is older and more predominantly female. “Fitness gamer”s, who play motion-based exercise games, are also seen as casual gamers.

“Ease of gameplay” is the only part that mentions difficulty in some form, but it means a game that is easy to play/start but it can be hard to master, it doesn’t mean an easy/not challenging game. Casual gamer by DEFINITION doesn’t mean a player who lacks the physical ability to complete content, they CHOOSE NOT TO do it. Once you understand that players who don’t do challenging content choose not to do it and are not prevented by some form of mental disability you will get the point and move on.

Where do you draw the line and say “that’s enough for me”?

Well, that’s a question with a two part answer. Sure, some people will give up after having spent what they consider a “reasonable amount of time” at something, while others will keep trying. That amount would differ from person to person. What would you consider a reasonable amount of time failing a specific amount of content before one should probably do something else with their time? An hour? Five hours? Ten hours? Fifty hours? Two hundred hours? Five thousand hours?

So yes, there likely is a reasonable limit to how much time a player can be expected to fail at something before giving up would be a fair option, but let’s not quibble about that, and stick with “the amount of time between now and when the servers shut down.” There are plenty of people who would fit into that category with sufficiently difficult content.

But let me ask you though. Say there is a content, and you do it once, and you fail horribly, just completely thrashed by it. And lets say you did not enjoy the experience at all, it was the worst hour you’ve spent playing a game, just all the worst sorts of experiences that you hate. Would you do it again? Sure you would, I’ve gathered that much. So you’d do it again, and you’d fail again, getting no closer to beating it than you did the first time. But you being you, you do it again, obviously, so three hours in, you haven’t gotten an inch further than the first time. So you do this for at least a dozen times, half a day of your life spent doing this, and no traction. You’d looked at all the online guides, watched videos, you know exactly what to so, all the cheesiest strategies anyone’s figured out, and it’s not getting you anywhere, you still can’t get past that one part, and there’s no way to get around it or for another player to make it easier for you. Total dead end. So how much longer do you spend on it before deciding that there are more productive uses of your time? Assume that no matter how many times you do try, you never move further than that one event, and you know that there are several harder ones beyond it. How much longer would you spend attempting it?

If I could have it without trying (like your whole suggestion) I wouldn’t try it until I got it, there would be no point in it.

So Liadri, you did that? And the only reason you did it is because you wanted a Liadri mini? If you could have gotten a Liadri mini for tokens then you never would have bothered with the challenge in the first place? I’m very sorry, that must be hard. You said you ran AC a bunch of times during beta, did you not realize that even if you completed it and got something fun, you wouldn’t get to keep it because it was beta?

Personally, I take on challenges all the time if I think they’ll be fun and interesting, even if there’s no reward for it. I mentioned meleeing Golem MKII, there’s nothing you get for that, you can just hang out in the corner and still get credit, but I still melee him every time, because it’s more fun that way. But I do it because I want it, not because I’ll be punished if I don’t.

If you don’t want to do something because the reward is not unique, then that’s fine. Don’t do that thing. Not everyone has to. If you don’t find the content fun then you shouldn’t have to do it.

That’s why exclusivity helped with all those encounters, in most cases you don’t even know if you are capable of finishing that content.

I think the devs should give you incentive enough to give it a try, but then trust each player to be comfortable with their own limitations, and decide for themselves what they feel is within their capabilities, and more importantly, what is worth their time.

In other words, dexterity and mental focus or any kind of “skill” can be compensated for and reduce the need for them by using basic reading comprehension skills.

And yet, a lot of people consider certain tactics to be cheesy, and hope that ANet erases those potentials from the raids. Maybe they have, maybe they haven’t, but chances are that if players figure out tactics like that for the raids, ANet might patch them out quicker than they have with previous content, in the name of keeping the content difficult. We don’t know where they’ll fall yet, but just imagine the raids as being all the most theoretically difficult portions of GW2, without any of the cheesy workarounds.

Yes, there might be ways to make things easier, or there might not, we don’t know. One thing we do know is that unlike raids in other games, there will not be level cap increases, where they just release a new expansion, and then everyone starts picking up blue/green level 83 gear off random mobs that is better than level 80 ascended, and suddenly people are roflstomping the raid in level 85 gear.

If it was an FPS game maybe, if it was a solo game maybe. But non of that holds true in an MMORPG.

I think it still applies. The twitch skills necessary are typically less, but in an action MMO like this one, they aren’t always less. Many challenges in GW2 require significant twitch skill, more if you aren’t permitted to use cheesy outs and have to run them as they were intended. I would not rate this game as terribly hard overall, but it has all the potential to be if they want it to be, and signs point to them wanting to try.

That doesn’t make any sense as explained above. And once again, this isn’t Call of Duty. There are always ways to compensate for the lack of physical skills, the only “skill” you need is basic reading comprehension.

That isn’t true. Strategy certainly helps, but it’s not always enough to overcome the actual challenge. In many cases, the only way a less skilled player could get through is purely by being carried, rezzed constantly, Mesmer portalled half the way, etc. Now I’m not saying that’s awful, I personally wouldn’t mind helping players like that out where I can, but that’s not actually contributing, that’s just being carried, and if someone is being carried, they are not “doing it,” even if they get the prize at the end. I’m not saying that it’ll be impossible for people to get carried, we don’t know that’s certain yet, I’m just saying that it’s quite likely there will be plenty of people who will be unable to carry their own weight in a party, that will contribute well less than 10% of the party’s strength, and could in fact contribute a negative amount.

Again, I don’t begrudge such players, I just think that if they can’t do it, and don’t even want to be there in the first place, why not just let them not be there?

It’s not the majority of the population as you claim. Not even 50%. Someone already said it earlier:

You have no proof to support that as a statement of fact. You asked how many people I believed fit into that category, I answered. Feel free to disagree, but there’s no way of knowing yet. We’ll see how many people make it through the raid, I suppose.

“Ease of gameplay” is the only part that mentions difficulty in some form, but it means a game that is easy to play/start but it can be hard to master, it doesn’t mean an easy/not challenging game.

Casual is a very broad term with a lot of meanings. When I use it to describe GW2 players, I mean players with average to low level of skill relative to other games, looking for relatively low engagement content, something that is fun, and challenging to the average player, but not challenging to a high-skill player. If such a player has any interest in personal improvement, it would come via consistent victories in which they improve on prior performances, not consistent defeats that teach them the error of their ways.

Casual gamer by DEFINITION doesn’t mean a player who lacks the physical ability to complete content, they CHOOSE NOT TO do it. Once you understand that players who don’t do challenging content choose not to do it and are not prevented by some form of mental disability you will get the point and move on.

The definition for “Casual Gamer” really doesn’t apply to anything I said one way or the other. I’m not sure why you think it would. I don’t think that the majority of GW2 players would be incapable of a high skill challenge because they are often referred to as casual gamers. They would be incapable of a high skill challenge and also they are often referred to as casual gamers, it’s just two separate, tangentially related facts, correlation, perhaps, but not causation.

maddoctor.2738:

“Ease of gameplay” is the only part that mentions difficulty in some form, but it means a game that is easy to play/start but it can be hard to master, it doesn’t mean an easy/not challenging game. Casual gamer by DEFINITION doesn’t mean a player who lacks the physical ability to complete content, they CHOOSE NOT TO do it. Once you understand that players who don’t do challenging content choose not to do it and are not prevented by some form of mental disability you will get the point and move on.

And once you get that not choosing to do a content does not preclude not being able to do that content (and in fact quite often goes in pair with it) we might also get somewhere.

There are many people that practice running. Most of them will never reach the heights required to participate in any professional meet, no matter how hard they try. Of those, most will never be able to run at the Olympic level. And of those, most (if not all) will still be inferior to Usain Bolt. And there’s not much they will be able to do about it – an accident of birth assinged to them different skill floors and ceilings. Trying to pretend otherwise, and claim that it was just the effort they put into it is willingly ignoring reality.

In this game we have people at the wildly different levels of ability. That means that the same level of challenge will require different levels of effort from different players. If you will make it challenging for the best, so they really need to put an effort into it to succeed, then the effort required from average players will become astronomically high, and those with below average inborn skill floors will never be able to pass it.

On the other hand, if you make it that anyone will be able to complete the content, assuming they do put a lot of effort init, then it will become a cakewalk for the best.

If you’ll try to circumvent that problem by making the challenge lie in the realm of knowledge and experience, and not skill execution, it will become an easy farm once the solution will become known – because knowledge and experience can be shared, and do not need to be continuously maintained.

Ohoni.6057:

What would you consider a reasonable amount of time failing a specific amount of content before one should probably do something else with their time?

Time required changes with the person. IF you fail repeatedly then perhaps it’s time to stop trying and let others try it instead. Then it’s a waiting and reading game, when someone else gets it you learn from them and beat it yourself. Let others fail and figure it out, then use their knowledge to beat it yourself. The only way “unreasonable amount of failure” would apply is if you were so determined to do the content without any kind of guide, without any kind of help, just relying on your own strength and ability. But that’s not the most common case in MMORPGs

I think the devs should give you incentive enough to give it a try, but then trust each player to be comfortable with their own limitations, and decide for themselves what they feel is within their capabilities, and more importantly, what is worth their time.

We’ve been through this before. I’ll let the devs decide on this, and so far their decision isn’t what you say.

And yet, a lot of people consider certain tactics to be cheesy, and hope that ANet erases those potentials from the raids.

It’s not all “cheesy”, some might be but not all of them, most of the time it’s using in-game skills and abilities the way they provide the most effect. I think most of the anti Frostbow, anti-stacking and similar threads are created by non-“hardcore players” and not be actual dungeon/speed runners. Some of those are indeed cheesy and shouldn’t exist in the raid (life stealing on Liadri for example) but not all of them. Creative usage of builds and skills to overcome content is a staple of RPGs

Yes, there might be ways to make things easier, or there might not, we don’t know.

I doubt there won’t be ways to make it easier. First runs are always a mess and lack strategy, proper mechanic and build knowledge. The more the content is run, the easier it becomes, with or without level cap increase or new gear tiers.

I think it still applies. The twitch skills necessary are typically less, but in an action MMO like this one, they aren’t always less. Many challenges in GW2 require significant twitch skill, more if you aren’t permitted to use cheesy outs and have to run them as they were intended. I would not rate this game as terribly hard overall, but it has all the potential to be if they want it to be, and signs point to them wanting to try.

I seriously doubt they want to make this a twitch game. But we’ll see I guess.

You have no proof to support that as a statement of fact. You asked how many people I believed fit into that category, I answered. Feel free to disagree, but there’s no way of knowing yet. We’ll see how many people make it through the raid, I suppose.

Similarly you have no proof of the numbers. And really making it through the raid doesn’t mean much on the subject.

I don’t think that the majority of GW2 players would be incapable of a high skill challenge because they are often referred to as casual gamers.

The Casual Gamer definition is very specific and doesn’t involve player skill in it at all. And here is where the main issue emerges, you think that the majority of GW2 players is incapable of a high skill challenge because of their limited physical/mental ability, I disagree with this, the majority of GW2 players are incapable of a high skill challenge because they don’t want to do the high skill challenge. Those are separate and that’s what I’ve been talking about in the last pages.

Being incapable of doing it because you lack the ability is different to being incapable because you don’t want to put the effort in, you don’t want to invest in it, you don’t want to read guides, ask for help, watch videos, get a proper working build, use appropriate traits/utilities and elites etc

You will be surprised at how many times I’ve joined a dungeon run with players who simply refuse to play the “meta” builds. I can understand them not wanting to use the “meta” builds in a dungeon, I never kick such people, in fact I will occasionally try some silly builds too. However, being unable to complete content because you refuse to use the “meta” build and instead you are playing how you want, and having a lack of physical ability are too completely separate things.

The anti-meta crowd will probably never finish the Raid, unless they change and use the meta builds at least only for the raid (not the dungeon meta builds, new specific builds for the raid). That means they don’t want to, not that they lack something and can’t do it.

I think that the vast majority of the casual GW2 population fits that category and they do not in fact lack anything. It’s a perception and a way of dealing with things, rather than a limitation of their body.

Astralporing.1957:

There are many people that practice running. Most of them will never reach the heights required to participate in any professional meet, no matter how hard they try. Of those, most will never be able to run at the Olympic level. And of those, most (if not all) will still be inferior to Usain Bolt. And there’s not much they will be able to do about it – an accident of birth assinged to them different skill floors and ceilings. Trying to pretend otherwise, and claim that it was just the effort they put into it is willingly ignoring reality.

I fail to see what does that have to do with MMORPGs or even gaming in general. Are we talking about PVP here? Competition? There is no competition in a raid other than finishing it first and then finishing it faster than the others. But anyone can compete. Also, I don’t see how your shoes can compensate for your lack of skill in running, or how having other players running with you can give you a boost. They are different. In an MMORPG there are always ways to compensate for the lack of a specific skill, in running (and most sports) you cannot do that.

If you’ll try to circumvent that problem by making the challenge lie in the realm of knowledge and experience, and not skill execution, it will become an easy farm once the solution will become known – because knowledge and experience can be shared, and do not need to be continuously maintained.

Yes and we see that in almost all content in this game, how it was considered impossibly hard at time, but then it turned easy. I don’t think the raid will stay hard forever either. Take the revamped Tequatl for example, when it was first released it was considered super hard by the majority of players, post were flooding the forums with screenshots of how empty the event is. Now, even pugs with zero knowledge of each other can do it.

I think the major component of the raid to keep it interesting it for a long time, will be the usage of the dynamic event system inside of it. Each time you will get a slightly different version, maybe once the current events get easier they could add different dynamic events in the raid to keep things fresh and interesting.

Astralporing.1957:

maddoctor.2738:

“Ease of gameplay” is the only part that mentions difficulty in some form, but it means a game that is easy to play/start but it can be hard to master, it doesn’t mean an easy/not challenging game. Casual gamer by DEFINITION doesn’t mean a player who lacks the physical ability to complete content, they CHOOSE NOT TO do it. Once you understand that players who don’t do challenging content choose not to do it and are not prevented by some form of mental disability you will get the point and move on.

And once you get that not choosing to do a content does not preclude not being able to do that content (and in fact quite often goes in pair with it) we might also get somewhere.

There are many people that practice running. Most of them will never reach the heights required to participate in any professional meet, no matter how hard they try. Of those, most will never be able to run at the Olympic level. And of those, most (if not all) will still be inferior to Usain Bolt. And there’s not much they will be able to do about it – an accident of birth assinged to them different skill floors and ceilings. Trying to pretend otherwise, and claim that it was just the effort they put into it is willingly ignoring reality.

In this game we have people at the wildly different levels of ability. That means that the same level of challenge will require different levels of effort from different players. If you will make it challenging for the best, so they really need to put an effort into it to succeed, then the effort required from average players will become astronomically high, and those with below average inborn skill floors will never be able to pass it.

On the other hand, if you make it that anyone will be able to complete the content, assuming they do put a lot of effort init, then it will become a cakewalk for the best.

If you’ll try to circumvent that problem by making the challenge lie in the realm of knowledge and experience, and not skill execution, it will become an easy farm once the solution will become known – because knowledge and experience can be shared, and do not need to be continuously maintained.

In an MMO raid, knowledge/practice will always trump base ability. Thats because the game has its own limitations on basic abilities.
maximum str is capped by stat
maximum speed is the same for everyone
maximum reaction time is limited by connection, and most likely anet caps it as well

The real “skill” is knowing how to deal with something, team work and execution.

also, why do you think that people who dont want to do everything in the game, should be entitled to get everything the game has to offer?
You buy the game because you enjoy MMOs, or guild wars, you didnt buy clothes for your charachter. If the game does not require you to play everything, why should you require the game to give you every possible reward?

Should they be required to put Zhaitan in your personal housing, because not everyone wants to do personal story, but some people want to be able to see all the enemies in the game?
If you dont want to beat twilight arbor, why should you be entitled to get the clothes from twilight arbor?
Purchase of the game does not unlock the wardrobe, it is expected that you must play the game to get things, so why does the same exact concept make you crazy in this situation?

edit:

not to mention they are not balancing it around everyone wearing beserker gear; that alone means that the room for error will be fairly large. Which means reaction based gameplay probably wont be the way most people will win, it will likely be about predictive behaviors and tactics.

AKA you can win by bringing more heals and tankier/supportive builds. Most likely if they add reactive elements, only 1-3 players will be required for those parts.

This doesnt mean you can just stand around, but rather once you know the encounter and follow instructions you can be useful and succeed, even with the minimum base level of ability.

maddoctor.2738:

Ohoni.6057:

If I hate the grind then it means I can’t do it as much as if you are unskilled you can’t do hard content, EXACT SAME THING

No, it is not remotely the same thing. Not looking at something because you choose not to look at it is NOT the same thing as not looking at it because you’re actually blind. I don’t even understand why you are persisting on this nonsense non-point.

I persist because it’s the exact same thing.

Indeed, I really don’t get this “unskilled” argument. If a crippled man who’s paralyzed from the neck down can do raids and competitive PvP ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t93xExjMAhg ), then you really have no excuse (looking at you Ohoni), especially not if you have a healthy set of eyes and hands.

Astralporing.1957:

maddoctor.2738:

“Ease of gameplay” is the only part that mentions difficulty in some form, but it means a game that is easy to play/start but it can be hard to master, it doesn’t mean an easy/not challenging game. Casual gamer by DEFINITION doesn’t mean a player who lacks the physical ability to complete content, they CHOOSE NOT TO do it. Once you understand that players who don’t do challenging content choose not to do it and are not prevented by some form of mental disability you will get the point and move on.

And once you get that not choosing to do a content does not preclude not being able to do that content (and in fact quite often goes in pair with it) we might also get somewhere.

There are many people that practice running. Most of them will never reach the heights required to participate in any professional meet, no matter how hard they try. Of those, most will never be able to run at the Olympic level. And of those, most (if not all) will still be inferior to Usain Bolt. And there’s not much they will be able to do about it – an accident of birth assinged to them different skill floors and ceilings. Trying to pretend otherwise, and claim that it was just the effort they put into it is willingly ignoring reality.

In this game we have people at the wildly different levels of ability. That means that the same level of challenge will require different levels of effort from different players. If you will make it challenging for the best, so they really need to put an effort into it to succeed, then the effort required from average players will become astronomically high, and those with below average inborn skill floors will never be able to pass it.

On the other hand, if you make it that anyone will be able to complete the content, assuming they do put a lot of effort init, then it will become a cakewalk for the best.

If you’ll try to circumvent that problem by making the challenge lie in the realm of knowledge and experience, and not skill execution, it will become an easy farm once the solution will become known – because knowledge and experience can be shared, and do not need to be continuously maintained.

“And once you get that not choosing to do a content does not preclude not being able to do that content”

This debate about not being able to is just useless distraction from the subject at hand. But let me address it anyway in the hope it moves on.

Is there a difference.. Sure there is, if somebody puts a gun to your head and he tells you to grind you can grind.. I personally did try to grind and within no-time I got so bored out of my mind I ‘could not go on’.. but your right, when forced to I would be able to.. So far the part where the people talking about “those not capable of doing it” are right.

But now to the practice..
1: Does it matter if I ‘can’t’ and won’t do it because it bores the hell out of me, or that I can’t do it because I am unable to? No it does not.. This is a game, it is supposed to be fun. The question if you are able to when somebody puts a gun to your head is irrelevant.. So looking at it from the relevant part both ‘cant’s’ are equal.

2: Physical not being able to.. Seriously, how many people would literally not be able to do any of that content? If we take away time-gate (as challenge has been the subject at hand, not time) so “not having the time to do it” is not being counted, we might talk about a hand full of people who are just not able to do the content.
And you can’t and should not base your design on these cases. It’s similar to the RNG thread where some people are focusing on the 1% possibility something will not drop vs the 99% it will. Or two politicians debating, where uses numbers and statistics, and the other then says you should not generalize and comes with this one exceptional example. You can’t and should not base the game around the 0,5% of the people who might not be able to do it.. And when people will put in the effort I am convinced 99,5% can do it.. It’s really a matter of being willing to put in the effort.

I did also time being mentioned as a reason for people not to put in the effort. But then you could just as well say ‘What would you consider a reasonable amount of time being bored of grinding before one should probably do something else with their time?’.

So really this debates about those that are not able to is some new bad excuse in an effort to push the “everybody should be able to get everything” agenda.

Look at ranger pets.. Who cares about those in GW2?.. yeah it’s nice to have some of them but that’s about it.. There is no real thrill in getting them. Now compare that to games where there are also rare and hard to get ranger pets (GW1, WoW). There the collecting of pets is fun. It’s game-play value.. Here where getting a ranger pet means walking up to him and pressing ‘H’ it’s not. It’s a perfect example in practice where you see that this “everybody should be able to get everything” idea is just bad.

If it’s really just a matter of “being willing to put in the effort” and learning the encounter, then i’ll fully expect top raiders to start complaining that the content is too easy mere weeks after implementation.

If it is to stay difficult for longer, if it really is meant to be a challenge, and not just an illusion of difficulty created by making it harder by the way of non-skill based requirements, then the number of people for whom it will be too difficult (or just plain impossible) will be high.

If it’s the first, then it has no real reason to exist and will be just wasted developer time that will not change anything beyond introducing more in-community friction.

Time required changes with the person. IF you fail repeatedly then perhaps it’s time to stop trying and let others try it instead. Then it’s a waiting and reading game, when someone else gets it you learn from them and beat it yourself.

No.

No.

Please stop with this meme, it is not relevant.

We are not talking about people who don’t know how to do it, and that can benefit from “letting other people figure it out for them.” That’s obviously a thing, not everyone should be a front-liner, but that’s not what we’re talking about here. What we’re talking about here assumes that this person is already content with not being a front liner, is attempting this months after the content came out, has watched the videos and read the blogs, knows exactly what to do, but is personally incapable of the skills necessary to apply that knowledge in real time.

I doubt there won’t be ways to make it easier. First runs are always a mess and lack strategy, proper mechanic and build knowledge. The more the content is run, the easier it becomes, with or without level cap increase or new gear tiers.

Well, I certainly think it will become easier, later runs will obviously be more streamlined than early ones. My point is that I don’t trust that they will ever become easy enough.If their goal is to make content that is challenging for the higher skilled players in the game, then practice, tactics, etc. will allow those players to have an easier and easier job of it, but still might never be enough to bridge the gap to what the lower-skilled players would need to accomplish it.

Also, you seem to have missed this question, probably because I edited it in after initially posting, but here it is again:

But let me ask you though. Say there is a content, and you do it once, and you fail horribly, just completely thrashed by it. And lets say you did not enjoy the experience at all, it was the worst hour you’ve spent playing a game, just all the worst sorts of experiences that you hate. Would you do it again? Sure you would, I’ve gathered that much. So you’d do it again, and you’d fail again, getting no closer to beating it than you did the first time. But you being you, you do it again, obviously, so three hours in, you haven’t gotten an inch further than the first time. So you do this for at least a dozen times, half a day of your life spent doing this, and no traction. You’d looked at all the online guides, watched videos, you know exactly what to so, all the cheesiest strategies anyone’s figured out, and it’s not getting you anywhere, you still can’t get past that one part, and there’s no way to get around it or for another player to make it easier for you. Total dead end. So how much longer do you spend on it before deciding that there are more productive uses of your time? Assume that no matter how many times you do try, you never move further than that one event, and you know that there are several harder ones beyond it. How much longer would you spend attempting it?

The Casual Gamer definition is very specific and doesn’t involve player skill in it at all.

The definition you used, perhaps. As I said, “casual gamer” is a very broad term with several valid meanings. One is to mean any gamer that only plays a little bit at a time, say an hour or two a week, verses “hardcore” players that play many hours a day. Another definition is one who only seeks out low engagement content, stuff you can sleepwalk through, relative to those that seek high-engagement content that requires utmost attention. I believe the typical GW2 player tends to fit both models to some degree.

And here is where the main issue emerges, you think that the majority of GW2 players is incapable of a high skill challenge because of their limited physical/mental ability, I disagree with this, the majority of GW2 players are incapable of a high skill challenge because they don’t want to do the high skill challenge. Those are separate and that’s what I’ve been talking about in the last pages.

I think both are true, and that either would be a perfectly good reason to provide them with alternatives. Even if we buy into your theory that anyone is capable of anything, and that they just don’t want to do it, why would that not be good enough reason to give them an alternative method? Shouldn’t a commercial product seek to define itself by what the average customer wants?

I fail to see what does that have to do with MMORPGs or even gaming in general. Are we talking about PVP here? Competition? There is no competition in a raid other than finishing it first and then finishing it faster than the others. But anyone can compete. Also, I don’t see how your shoes can compensate for your lack of skill in running, or how having other players running with you can give you a boost. They are different. In an MMORPG there are always ways to compensate for the lack of a specific skill, in running (and most sports) you cannot do that.

The point is that if you balance a race against Olympic standards (ie “run the 100m in under 10 seconds”) then it would exclude a lot of people who cannot meet that standard. GW2 is not a competitive game, but if they balance content against the best, then there will be those that fall well short of that standard.

In an MMO raid, knowledge/practice will always trump base ability. Thats because the game has its own limitations on basic abilities.
maximum str is capped by stat
maximum speed is the same for everyone
maximum reaction time is limited by connection, and most likely anet caps it as well

Reaction speed makes a significant difference in a lot of content, especially when a player has high latency. You raise a valid point, that what might be easy for an average speed player with low ping, might become very difficult for even a highly skilled player with very high ping, or even impossible for a low skilled player with high ping, simply because they’re given a much smaller window in which to react.

Should they be required to put Zhaitan in your personal housing, because not everyone wants to do personal story, but some people want to be able to see all the enemies in the game?
If you dont want to beat twilight arbor, why should you be entitled to get the clothes from twilight arbor?
Purchase of the game does not unlock the wardrobe, it is expected that you must play the game to get things, so why does the same exact concept make you crazy in this situation?

Should you be able to construct a human analog, using straw as the base material? No, no you should not.

Indeed, I really don’t get this “unskilled” argument. If a crippled man who’s paralyzed from the neck down can do raids and competitive PvP ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t93xExjMAhg ), then you really have no excuse (looking at you Ohoni), especially not if you have a healthy set of eyes and hands.

He was playing WoW, not GW2. We aren’t talking about WoW raids, we’re talking about GW2 raids. Totally different game. I doubt there will be the option to punch on a training dummy for ten minutes in a GW2 raid.

1: Does it matter if I ‘can’t’ and won’t do it because it bores the hell out of me, or that I can’t do it because I am unable to? No it does not.. This is a game, it is supposed to be fun. The question if you are able to when somebody puts a gun to your head is irrelevant.. So looking at it from the relevant part both ‘cant’s’ are equal.

So you agree that if someone feels that way about doing raids, they should not have to do the raids.

2: Physical not being able to.. Seriously, how many people would literally not be able to do any of that content? If we take away time-gate (as challenge has been the subject at hand, not time) so “not having the time to do it” is not being counted, we might talk about a hand full of people who are just not able to do the content.

But we can’t take away time gates, as the devs have already confirmed that the bosses will have enrage timers. You will have to complete each one within the time allotted. If you mean that some players will be incapable of setting aside several hours to do the raid, if that is necessary, then that is a gate as valid as any other. If you can’t find the time, you can’t find the time.

You can’t and should not base the game around the 0,5% of the people who might not be able to do it..

Nor should you base it around less than 10% who can. You should base it around the middle 50%.

There the collecting of pets is fun. It’s game-play value.. Here where getting a ranger pet means walking up to him and pressing ‘H’ it’s not. It’s a perfect example in practice where you see that this “everybody should be able to get everything” idea is just bad.

Before guides it was pretty fun to find the more carefully hidden Ranger pets. Pets in Wow stopped being fun when they stopped retaining their original sizes.

It all comes down to this: “Does a raid having a unique skin mean that you now absolutely have to do that content?”

The answer is no.

It all comes down to this: “Does a raid having a unique skin mean that you now absolutely have to do that content?”

The answer is no.

All just as true as it is irrelevant.

What it really comes down to is this: "does it benefit anyone to have players in a game doing activities that they do not want to do?

The answer is no.

Ohoni.6057:

It all comes down to this: “Does a raid having a unique skin mean that you now absolutely have to do that content?”

The answer is no.

All just as true as it is irrelevant.

What it really comes down to is this: "does it benefit anyone to have players in a game doing activities that they do not want to do?

The answer is no.

Indeed! And their previous attempt at selling gold allowing people to get what they want by doing whatever, has resulted in exactly that.

A huge part of the PvE community is doing content they do not like.. Grinding, grinding and more grinding. At best they find it acceptable, but most just grind (while watching a movie on the other screen) for the gold to buy the items they want.

They don’t like what they are doing but they do it anyway because it’s the most viable way to get pretty much everything they want.

When we put items behinds its own specific content, then some people might still in some cases do something they do not like, because the item they want is behind content they do not like. But overall, a lot of the time they are just playing the game as they should, exploring the world, doing the content they like.

Ohoni.6057:

Time required changes with the person. IF you fail repeatedly then perhaps it’s time to stop trying and let others try it instead. Then it’s a waiting and reading game, when someone else gets it you learn from them and beat it yourself.

No.

I’d say yes. I’d love to see data on it, but I believe players who watched every video, read every guide, tried the content a lot of times, used the proper builds, used the proper skills, proper weapons, proper team composition, proper team-mates and STILL fail the content are a very small minority of the population. The majority of the casual population would’ve stopped caring about it, or resign and say “I can’t do it”, way way sooner, like try Liadri 3 times then give up, no asking for help, no looking up guides, no nothing. That’s what the definition of the “casual gamer” tells us, a “casual gamer” will probably never reach this point:

What we’re talking about here assumes that this person is already content with not being a front liner, is attempting this months after the content came out, has watched the videos and read the blogs, knows exactly what to do

So your “assumption” isn’t very good. I’d guess if they actually reached that point, then the vast majority of the population would actually finish the raid. But the point is, maybe the majority of the population won’t reach that point in the first place.

But let me ask you though. Say there is a content, and you do it once, and you fail horribly, just completely thrashed by it.

I’ve been there multiple times. And actually I’ve been at that point that reading/watching wasn’t enough, that happened specifically at Simin in Arah P4. That required a different approach, calling for help. There was a huge thread on the dungeon forums at the time, where dungeon community members offering to help newbies to do the dungeons, they had their names there. So I picked one and called them, he came along and explained everything to my team. We did it with his help, sometimes even watching a video isn’t enough. Then he left the group, we re-invited the party member we kicked for him to join and finished Arah P4 (last boss is a joke)
The question still stands, how many players will actually reach that point?

The definition you used, perhaps.

I used the wikipedia definition if you have a problem with it, blame the wiki. But anyway if casual gamers want games to sleepwalk through, then why is it that many “casual games” (games aimed at casuals by definition) are very challenging? That’s a contradiction. Skill doesn’t play a role in being a “casual gamer”.

Even if we buy into your theory that anyone is capable of anything, and that they just don’t want to do it, why would that not be good enough reason to give them an alternative method?

The answer to that is why we are having this entire thread, I can’t answer that in a single quote.

GW2 is not a competitive game, but if they balance content against the best, then there will be those that fall well short of that standard.

Don’t worry “the best” at playing GW2 isn’t as high up there as you might think. Unfortunately GW2 has a major problem, there is no challenge/difficulty build up, you go from grinding/farming to hardcore content, so those players who are “the best” are very hard to define. I think before adding raids to the game, they should’ve given us more challenging general content that gradually gets more difficult until we reach the raid. This difficulty spike will cause some problems, at least at release.

maddoctor.2738:

But let me ask you though. Say there is a content, and you do it once, and you fail horribly, just completely thrashed by it.

I’ve been there multiple times. And actually I’ve been at that point that reading/watching wasn’t enough, that happened specifically at Simin in Arah P4.

Better, if groups will NOT have this (so are able to complete) the first raid within the first week, you will see many complains (rightfully so) that it’s too easy. If it’s challenging there always is the possibility you fail.. that is what you want because it makes winning more fun.

Is anybody excited for killing a trash mob? No because it’s easy… Well this is completely true.. I do remember killing trash mobs and every kill was kind of fun… you know why? That group had a low probability to drop a special unique reward only they dropped.

Combining the two.. killing a hard to kill boss that you might fail.. and that can drop a unique skill is even better. That is what we need in this game.

A huge part of the PvE community is doing content they do not like.. Grinding, grinding and more grinding. At best they find it acceptable, but most just grind (while watching a movie on the other screen) for the gold to buy the items they want.

Yes, and I proposed ways to fix that, I am not against you on that, but it isn’t really relevant to the topic at hand.

When we put items behinds its own specific content, then some people might still in some cases do something they do not like, because the item they want is behind content they do not like. But overall, a lot of the time they are just playing the game as they should, exploring the world, doing the content they like.

Not if the items they want can’t be earned doing the content they like. That’s why the content they like needs to always provide a path towards the items they want, problem solved, nobody’s doing content that they don’t like.

I’d say yes. I’d love to see data on it, but I believe players who watched every video, read every guide, tried the content a lot of times, used the proper builds, used the proper skills, proper weapons, proper team composition, proper team-mates and STILL fail the content are a very small minority of the population.

So you think that the majority of people who watched video guides were able to complete Liadri? The majority of players who’ve watched videos were able to complete the Mad King’s Clocktower? That they would be able to complete raid content on that level of personal skill? Again, most of GW2s content is not challenging, simply because the devs allow us to cheat most of the time in the name of casual play, but if they really tightened the reigns, it could get VERY hard, VERY quickly, and they’ve given every indication that this is their goal here.

The majority of the casual population would’ve stopped caring about it, or resign and say “I can’t do it”, way way sooner, like try Liadri 3 times then give up, no asking for help, no looking up guides, no nothing. That’s what the definition of the “casual gamer” tells us, a “casual gamer” will probably never reach this point:

Ok, so let’s say you’re right about that, and that those players do drop out, you do not care whether those players are happy or not? No matter how large a portion of the playerbase they make up? Those players might have been fine passing up a random inkblot mini, would they have been as “casual” about passing up Legendary Armor?

I’ve been there multiple times. And actually I’ve been at that point that reading/watching wasn’t enough, that happened specifically at Simin in Arah P4. That required a different approach, calling for help. There was a huge thread on the dungeon forums at the time, where dungeon community members offering to help newbies to do the dungeons, they had their names there. So I picked one and called them, he came along and explained everything to my team. We did it with his help, sometimes even watching a video isn’t enough. Then he left the group, we re-invited the party member we kicked for him to join and finished Arah P4 (last boss is a joke)

You’re dodging the question. I did not ask you, “what do you do if you fail it once,” I said “what do you do if you fail it ALWAYS?” I specifically said that you took ALL avenues to help you pass it, and none of them worked. The example is that you CAN NEVER finish the objective, so no answer from you that involves “so here’s how I’d beat it anyways” is actually an answer to the question posed. I’ll ask again, If you could NEVER pass the objective (but of course each time you would not know that you could not pass it), If every try was a failure no matter what you did, how many tries would it take you to reasonably decide that your time is better spent elsewhere? How many hours would you spend running the content without making any progress, before giving up?

The question still stands, how many players will actually reach that point?

That really depends on where they set the bar. If they set it high enough, it would be “most players.” If they set it low enough, it would be “very few players.” My concern, based on their comments, is that they intend to set that bar fairly high.

I used the wikipedia definition if you have a problem with it, blame the wiki.

It’s an ill-defined modern term. I trust Wikipedia on established topics, but any social concept invented in the last decade or two is subject to rational debate.

But anyway if casual gamers want games to sleepwalk through, then why is it that many “casual games” (games aimed at casuals by definition) are very challenging?

Because again, the term is very poorly understood in general, and means something different to each person, because it is such a new term. Therefore, “casual” is used to mean one thing one place, and another someplace else. If you ever start a comment with “this is labeled casual, therefore. . .” the following statement is more likely to be inaccurate than not.

Skill doesn’t play a role in being a “casual gamer”

Again, if you’re talking a “duration casual,” someone who’s concern is that they only want to play in small increments of time, then this is true. If you’re talking an “engagement casual,” someone who does not want anything too mentally or physically challenging and just wants to kill time, then that comment is extremely false. I believe GW2 skews more towards both fo these things than most other MMOs.

Don’t worry “the best” at playing GW2 isn’t as high up there as you might think.

You’re the one arguing that GW2 is chock full of master gamers that can overcome any challenge set before them.

Unfortunately GW2 has a major problem, there is no challenge/difficulty build up, you go from grinding/farming to hardcore content, so those players who are “the best” are very hard to define. I think before adding raids to the game, they should’ve given us more challenging general content that gradually gets more difficult until we reach the raid. This difficulty spike will cause some problems, at least at release.

The VB stuff seems to be aiming for more challenging, although it’s circumvented in large parts by their flawed breakbars. We don’t know that other difficulties will await. The S2 story missions could be pretty challenging, if you soloed them or used the challenge motes and were aiming for the achievements. I know that when I went for the centaur camp achievement it took me 3-4 tries to get through it in a group, and another 4-5 tries until the last member of the group was dragged across the finish line.

I don’t get some people in this thread, at all. There are a gazillion rewards in this game, from a lot of different content. Some pieces are harder to get, some are just handed to you. Getting the shiniest fractal backpiece comes to mind, as in contrast to the first +1 power back piece you get as a low lvl reward.

Following the logic of the vocal minority in this thread I will now state that I, as a roleplayer, want all skins (legendary weapons and armor) by just roleplaying in LA. I wish that I could earn a token per emote I do and that I after say 30 tokens can go and get MY Twilight or MY legendary armor in HoT. I want everything accessible by the way I play the game. Because I am entitled to. Why should I need to put any effort into stuff I don’t like?

God forbid challenges, gief all now!

/rant

maddoctor.2738:

Don’t worry “the best” at playing GW2 isn’t as high up there as you might think.

If that’s true, then raids will not solve the problem of lack of a difficult content. Because they can’t be that content without being, you know, actually difficult. And knowledge and experience can’t be considered a serious difficulty nowadays, not where you can consult a guide as soon as the first group figures things out.

Granted, it will be difficult for that first group, but only until they’ll get it right once. If that’s all the challenge the content will have, then all the subsequent runs will be as easy as what some people claim dungeons are now.

The only way to make a challenge that will last longer is to make it skill-based. One where even knowing a winning strategy by heart doesn’t mean that you will be able to succesfully execute it. But if we go that way, then, if it’s to be challenging for those with high skill ceilings, it will need to be near impossible (or flat out impossible) for those with lower skill ceilings. There’s no way to avoid that.

Again, unless what you want is not a challenge, but merely a fake difficulty that only exists as a means to make you feel better by pretending you are somehow superior. Out of respect i will assume that’s not what you are after.

Morlaug.3267:

I don’t get some people in this thread, at all. There are a gazillion rewards in this game, from a lot of different content. Some pieces are harder to get, some are just handed to you. Getting the shiniest fractal backpiece comes to mind, as in contrast to the first +1 power back piece you get as a low lvl reward.

Following the logic of the vocal minority in this thread I will now state that I, as a roleplayer, want all skins (legendary weapons and armor) by just roleplaying in LA. I wish that I could earn a token per emote I do and that I after say 30 tokens can go and get MY Twilight or MY legendary armor in HoT. I want everything accessible by the way I play the game. Because I am entitled to. Why should I need to put any effort into stuff I don’t like?

God forbid challenges, gief all now!

/rant

Be careful, some people might not understand you are being sarcastic!

I remember sarcastic comments like this in threads over a year ago where people sarcastically asked for a reward for logging in.

Astralporing.1957:

maddoctor.2738:

Don’t worry “the best” at playing GW2 isn’t as high up there as you might think.

If that’s true, then raids will not solve the problem of lack of a difficult content. Because they can’t be that content without being, you know, actually difficult. And knowledge and experience can’t be considered a serious difficulty nowadays, not where you can consult a guide as soon as the first group figures things out.

Granted, it will be difficult for that first group, but only until they’ll get it right once. If that’s all the challenge the content will have, then all the subsequent runs will be as easy as what some people claim dungeons are now.

The only way to make a challenge that will last longer is to make it skill-based. One where even knowing a winning strategy by heart doesn’t mean that you will be able to succesfully execute it. But if we go that way, then, if it’s to be challenging for those with high skill ceilings, it will need to be near impossible (or flat out impossible) for those with lower skill ceilings. There’s no way to avoid that.

Again, unless what you want is not a challenge, but merely a fake difficulty that only exists as a means to make you feel better by pretending you are somehow superior. Out of respect i will assume that’s not what you are after.

You are 10% right about knowledge and skill not being the same thing, and challenging content should be based more on skill then challenge. Because knowledge becomes a trick at some time.

Having said that.. you can also get more skilled at something, and doing that is similar to getting knowledge only with one addition to it.. practice.

For knowledge you just read “wear this and do that” and that’s it. With skill you read ”dodge in time”, “try to save the speed-skill for when you really need it”, “When jumping, hold your right mouse-button to move.”

But doing that correctly required practice. By practice you will be getting better at dodging at the right time, saving the spells for the right time and jumping from stone to stone before the floor eats you (clock-tower JP).

But you guys are acting as if challenging raids is something nearly impossible for a normal human being to achieve. And this is nonsense. Nearly every gamer is able to complete nearly every challenge (not talking about the time) in every game. Only people with real disabilities might not be able to.

Ohoni.6057:

Again, most of GW2s content is not challenging, simply because the devs allow us to cheat most of the time in the name of casual play, but if they really tightened the reigns, it could get VERY hard, VERY quickly, and they’ve given every indication that this is their goal here.

Yes just like how they said Tequatl will be impossible to beat. I’ll have to see what they come up with before I can form some form of a conclusion. I admit, Liadri wasn’t the best example because it was a solo encounter. But in a lot of encounters yes, watching videos and adapting to what they say is enough to make them easy mode, like getting enough reflects for Uncategorized fractal, using a blind build against Deadeye, Frostbows for gravelings in AC and a billion other examples. Maybe it will be much harder to do something like this in the raid, but I don’t think it will be impossible.

Do a simple test. Start a new LFG listing and say “everyone welcome to join”. See what kind of players you get, that Rifle Warrior who stays at 1200 and gets no party buffs, the P/P Thief who doesn’t know what Stealth is and the Guardian who doesn’t use reflects are not doing it because they are incapabable, dumb or lack the skill to do it. It’s a different gameplay style they choose to do, or maybe they are just new.

How many hours would you spend running the content without making any progress, before giving up?

It’s not a matter of repetition, it’s not a counter “at how many do I stop?” And I still believe the amount of players who will do everything, watch all videos, use all builds, have perfect team compositions and still fail will be extremely limited (see below for why)

If you’re talking an “engagement casual,” someone who does not want anything too mentally or physically challenging and just wants to kill time, then that comment is extremely false. I believe GW2 skews more towards both fo these things than most other MMOs.

That’s exactly the thing. Let’s say that the GW2 playerbase doesn’t want (the magic word) engagement and wants to kill time in the game. If someone just wants to kill time and doesn’t want to be engaged/challenged, then it doesn’t mean he is unfit/incapable of finishing the content, he chooses not to do it. A player who doesn’t want engagement in a game won’t watch videos, won’t use the meta builds, won’t find optimal team compositions and because of that, he won’t finish the challenging content. That’s where the difference is between “incapable of doing it” vs “choose not to do it”.

Now if you include those players that don’t want engagement into the “incapable of doing it” then I can’t do anything about it, I guess we will have to agree to disagree on that part. But I still believe that the players who don’t want challenge in their daily gaming are way way more than those who won’t finish the content no matter what they do.

The VB stuff seems to be aiming for more challenging, although it’s circumvented in large parts by their flawed breakbars

Yes they are making progress in their “difficulty spikes”.

I think this “incapable of doing it” vs “don’t want to do it” argument has gone for way too long already

Astralporing.1957:

If that’s true, then raids will not solve the problem of lack of a difficult content. Because they can’t be that content without being, you know, actually difficult. And knowledge and experience can’t be considered a serious difficulty nowadays, not where you can consult a guide as soon as the first group figures things out.

Knowledge and experience are part of difficulty in a video game.

Following the logic of the vocal minority in this thread I will now state that I, as a roleplayer, want all skins (legendary weapons and armor) by just roleplaying in LA. I wish that I could earn a token per emote I do and that I after say 30 tokens can go and get MY Twilight or MY legendary armor in HoT. I want everything accessible by the way I play the game. Because I am entitled to. Why should I need to put any effort into stuff I don’t like?

God forbid challenges, gief all now!

Are you made out of straw? You sound suspiciously like a person made out of straw. . .

Granted, it will be difficult for that first group, but only until they’ll get it right once. If that’s all the challenge the content will have, then all the subsequent runs will be as easy as what some people claim dungeons are now.

Yes, and as Maddoctor noted, the old dungeons WERE very challenging, until people found the various workarounds to bypass the challenge, so now people complain that they are no longer challenging. So yeah, the guys around here are talking in circles, promoting how “easy” these raids will become once everyone figures them out, while at the same time hopefully understanding that the whole point of these is that they should never become that easy, and that the developers will do everything they can to prevent it, at least on their present course.

But you guys are acting as if challenging raids is something nearly impossible for a normal human being to achieve. And this is nonsense. Nearly every gamer is able to complete nearly every challenge (not talking about the time) in every game. Only people with real disabilities might not be able to.

Bull kitten.

Yes just like how they said Tequatl will be impossible to beat. I’ll have to see what they come up with before I can form some form of a conclusion.

Again, I have a feeling that they’re going to stick with this one more, and continue tuning it as necessary if people figure out cheesy outs. It’s much easier to balance out ten-man content than 150-man content anyway. I think that in their current state, they will intend to patch any exploit people find until players are forced to run the raid as intended. The only thing that would change that is if community feedback is overwhelmingly that it is too hard and they change their goals for the project, but I trust them when they say that currently they intend for it to be a high challenge, and intend to reach that goal.

But in a lot of encounters yes, watching videos and adapting to what they say is enough to make them easy mode, like getting enough reflects for Uncategorized fractal, using a blind build against Deadeye, Frostbows for gravelings in AC and a billion other examples. Maybe it will be much harder to do something like this in the raid, but I don’t think it will be impossible.

but this is the thing, those tactics still work because the devs ALLOW them to work. They have decided that the players enjoy doing those things, so they will let them. Imagine if they actually got serious about the content, about making it all hard? What if they made the attacks non-reflectable in Uncategorized, gave Deadeye some Dredge goggles, changed up the pacing and locations in AC so that Frostbows no longer worked as well, etc.? What if they took as their goal to make that content jhard, and thus patched up every hole.

I’m not arguing that current content is too hard, I’m arguing that the only reason it isn’t too hard is because the devs allow it.

Do a simple test. Start a new LFG listing and say “everyone welcome to join”. See what kind of players you get, that Rifle Warrior who stays at 1200 and gets no party buffs, the P/P Thief who doesn’t know what Stealth is and the Guardian who doesn’t use reflects are not doing it because they are incapabable, dumb or lack the skill to do it. It’s a different gameplay style they choose to do, or maybe they are just new.

Maybe so, but why shouldn’t they be allowed to? If the developers put those options in the game, then it’s their job to make them roughly as viable as anything else. If those options aren’t viable, then the devs have work to do to fix them.

It’s not a matter of repetition, it’s not a counter “at how many do I stop?” And I still believe the amount of players who will do everything, watch all videos, use all builds, have perfect team compositions and still fail will be extremely limited (see below for why)

You still haven’t answered the question. Assuming it takes roughly an hour each time to reach your “wall,” the point you just can’t seem to get past, and assuming you’ve tried everything you would think to try, and still can’t ever get past it, at what point would you give up? You can phrase it in repetitions or in hours or whatever, but answer the question.

That’s exactly the thing. Let’s say that the GW2 playerbase doesn’t want engagement and wants to kill time in the game. If someone just wants to kill time and doesn’t want to be engaged/challenged, then it doesn’t mean he is unfit/incapable of finishing the content, he chooses not to do it.

Yes, and that’s a valid opinion for him to have, which the developers should respect, but remember that I did say that I thought most of the players were BOTH, both engagement casual (which you seem to have no respect for), and that many of them would actually be incapable of extreme difficulty scenarios, if they even bothered to try, which they would not.

Now if you include those players that don’t want engagement into the “incapable of doing it” then I can’t do anything about it, I guess we will have to agree to disagree on that part. But I still believe that the players who don’t want challenge in their daily gaming are way way more than those who won’t finish the content no matter what they do.

I think there’s a great deal of overlap. I think that the majority of those who don’t want challenge, don’t want it because they’re aware of their own limitations, and don’t want to waste time on something they know they’ll never achieve anyway. I think there are some portion of the low engagement players who have unrealized potential, but I don’t think they make up the bulk of that group. If a school offers a “walking” class, a “jogging” class, and a “running” class, could some of the walkers make tournament qualified runners, given the proper training? Maybe, but not likely a lot of them.

But anyways, say you are right, say it is all them choosing to not do that content, why is their position not worthy of respect as a human choice? Why do you see that as license to not care whether they are happy or not?

I think this “incapable of doing it” vs “don’t want to do it” argument has gone for way too long already

I’ll remind you that you were the one that insisted on starting it with your “I don’t like grind, so it’s impossible for me” premise. I’ve always held that it really doesn’t matter to me whether people are actually incapable or just unwilling, what matters is what they want to do, and that what they want should be taken with respect and dignity, regardless their reasons.

Ohoni.6057:

Again, I have a feeling that they’re going to stick with this one more, and continue tuning it as necessary if people figure out cheesy outs.

I don’t think using a combination of skills available to you as cheesy outs nor the devs simply “allow” it. There are cases of outright exploits but that’s not the case everywhere.

Maybe so, but why shouldn’t they be allowed to?

In the “old” dungeons all you are missing if you don’t use the meta builds is time. In the raid you might not even finish it. That’s the big difference.

You still haven’t answered the question. Assuming it takes roughly an hour each time to reach your “wall,” the point you just can’t seem to get past, and assuming you’ve tried everything you would think to try, and still can’t ever get past it, at what point would you give up? You can phrase it in repetitions or in hours or whatever, but answer the question.

There is no clear answer, no amount of hours or repetitions, the answer is simple: it depends on the content and the rewards (exclusives) it has. It will be much easier to give up on a jumping puzzle and go ask for portals because a) portals make it very easy b) there isn’t any kind of benefit if I finish it all myself. I’d try it for the challenge for a time, but if I couldn’t do it no matter what then I’d stop after some time, I can’t specify because it depends if I was having fun doing the puzzle. Now, if there was no way to get portals and there was an exclusive reward behind that jumping puzzle, chances are I would try it until I got it no matter how much time it would take.

I think there’s a great deal of overlap. I think that the majority of those who don’t want challenge, don’t want it because they’re aware of their own limitations, and don’t want to waste time on something they know they’ll never achieve anyway.

I don’t think anyone knows their own limits especially for things they haven’t even tried.

But anyways, say you are right, say it is all them choosing to not do that content, why is their position not worthy of respect as a human choice? Why do you see that as license to not care whether they are happy or not?

See below:

I think this “incapable of doing it” vs “don’t want to do it” argument has gone for way too long already

I’ll remind you that you were the one that insisted on starting it with your “I don’t like grind, so it’s impossible for me” premise. I’ve always held that it really doesn’t matter to me whether people are actually incapable or just unwilling, what matters is what they want to do, and that what they want should be taken with respect and dignity, regardless their reasons.

I see you remember how it all started. So you agree that if I don’t want to grind they should respect it. Remember this part:

Third, you cannot compare not wanting to do content because you find it boring to not being able to do content because it is outside your skill range.

So you were wrong back then and you CAN compare it because it doesn’t matter (your words) if you are actually incapable or just unwilling. Then why were you so insistant all this time to prove otherwise?

Again, that’s just insulting to intelligent humans everywhere.

Yes, because the words you’ve chosen to string together do not form a rational combination. you are insisting on comparing a lack of capability to a lack of interest.

The result may be the same, but the reason behind it is entirely different. It’s like you’re saying that a blind person is no worse off, or more deserving of support, than someone who just chooses to keep his eyes closed because he can’t be bothered to open them.

If being unwilling and incapable was the same, why all the hostility?

Ohoni.6057:

LucosTheDutch.4819:

Indeed, I really don’t get this “unskilled” argument. If a crippled man who’s paralyzed from the neck down can do raids and competitive PvP ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t93xExjMAhg ), then you really have no excuse (looking at you Ohoni), especially not if you have a healthy set of eyes and hands.

He was playing WoW, not GW2. We aren’t talking about WoW raids, we’re talking about GW2 raids. Totally different game. I doubt there will be the option to punch on a training dummy for ten minutes in a GW2 raid.

Way to go to disrespect a crippled man, real cool of you.

You do realize WoW is more difficult than GW2 right? Like, way more difficult.

And you doubt there will be the option to punch on a training dummy for ten minutes in a GW2? Dude, are we playing the same game? That is exactly what all world bosses and dungeon bosses are right now. They’re basically just loot pinatas. I doubt raids will be much more difficult. Probably a little more difficult, but not so difficult that you as an healthy abelist man with working eyes and hands won’t be able to do them.

PS: Please stop editing out my name when you quote me. You will address me properly with my name at the top of my comment. If you can’t do that, then please don’t reply to me at all. What you’re doing now is confusing (mostly to other readers) and annoying as kitten.

Ohoni.6057:

It all comes down to this: “Does a raid having a unique skin mean that you now absolutely have to do that content?”

The answer is no.

All just as true as it is irrelevant.

What it really comes down to is this: "does it benefit anyone to have players in a game doing activities that they do not want to do?

The answer is no.

I don’t even understand your argument anymore. You don’t have to do activities you don’t want to do, that is the entire point of only cosmetics being rewards.

It would be far more damaging to the game to have little to no incentive to do content then it would be to have some skins locked to that content.

maddoctor.2738:

the Guardian who doesn’t use reflects are not doing it because they are incapabable, dumb or lack the skill to do it.

I actually don’t use reflects that often because i do lack the skill. I have a trouble with positioning in some cases, and can’t get the timing right. I could have done things like that at some point in the past, but nowadays my reaction time, situational awareness and precision in directing my character is simply not as good as it used to be. I am literally unable to perform at the level i was once used to. And that’s not due to any disability. Just age (and mind you, i am not even that bad compared to many of my friends, nor am i very old. Just past my prime).

As thus, i am painfully aware that the ceiling not only does in fact exist, but also is low enough to matter in even such a laid back game as this one.

You are obviously in a better situation, and that’s why you may think otherwise, but you should be aware that your personal point of view influences too heavily your judgement in this case.

maddoctor.2738:

Astralporing.1957:

If that’s true, then raids will not solve the problem of lack of a difficult content. Because they can’t be that content without being, you know, actually difficult. And knowledge and experience can’t be considered a serious difficulty nowadays, not where you can consult a guide as soon as the first group figures things out.

Knowledge and experience are part of difficulty in a video game.

So is skill. And since knowledge and experience do not necessarily need to be acquired by you, personally and can be thransferred via guides, the only meaningful difficulty after a time will be skill-based.

People asking for raids are considering dungeons easy because they have already obtained the knowledge, that’s true, but also because after obtaining it they are above the required skill floor for the content. And when they are asking for a challenging the content, they must be aware that the fist point (knowledge) will hold up for no more than few weeks (at best). So, are they asking for a content that two months from implementation will be as easy as dungeons are? Or are they asking for something that will be more difficult even after some time?

Again, if it’s the first, then there’s no point. Anet should just keep introducing new dungeons and fractals, there’s no reason to introduce a new gamemode just for that.

If it’s second however, then again, due to difference in personal skill things that will be hard for average players will end up easy for the top ones. And if you’ll want it to be difficult for the top players, it will get even harder for others. Quite possibly just plain too hard.

LucosTheDutch.4819:

That is exactly what all world bosses and dungeon bosses are right now. They’re basically just loot pinatas. I doubt raids will be much more difficult.

Then there’s no point in them existing.

Fox.3469:

Ohoni.6057:

It all comes down to this: “Does a raid having a unique skin mean that you now absolutely have to do that content?”

The answer is no.

All just as true as it is irrelevant.

What it really comes down to is this: "does it benefit anyone to have players in a game doing activities that they do not want to do?

The answer is no.

I don’t even understand your argument anymore. You don’t have to do activities you don’t want to do, that is the entire point of only cosmetics being rewards.

It would be far more damaging to the game to have little to no incentive to do content then it would be to have some skins locked to that content.

His entire agenda has become a joke in itself.

He still can’t seem to grasp that raids will be launching with exclusive skins.
PvP will be launching leagues with exclusive skins
Fractals will be improved/upgraded with exclusive skins.

There is literally NO argument he can make that will make anet say “yup, ohoni is right, lets cancel everything we had in mind for raid rewards and follow his philosophy”

As I’ve said before, Ohoni is 100% supportive of PvP and WvW not getting ANY major updates. He doesn’t want dev resources on those game modes because of his ridiculous philosophy (no benefit in spending resources on PvP/WvW since no one plays it according to him….)

His entire agenda is an absolute joke.

Fox.3469:

Ohoni.6057:

It all comes down to this: “Does a raid having a unique skin mean that you now absolutely have to do that content?”

The answer is no.

All just as true as it is irrelevant.

What it really comes down to is this: "does it benefit anyone to have players in a game doing activities that they do not want to do?

The answer is no.

I don’t even understand your argument anymore. You don’t have to do activities you don’t want to do, that is the entire point of only cosmetics being rewards.

It would be far more damaging to the game to have little to no incentive to do content then it would be to have some skins locked to that content.

Funny right.. it started with “people should be able to get rewards by playing whatever content they like and it should be easy”.

That moved on to the point where “what some people want, is to hunt down exclusive cosmetics behind challenging content” because of what it adds to the content and to the reward itself, also talking about compromises where you could put half of the rewards behind specific (challenging) content and the other half behind multiple things.

So with that, the “people should be able to do what they want” kind of failed as an argument because what the one wants, the other dislikes and a compromise was not an option.

So in an effort to still try to move in that direction, they moved to another argument.. people might simply not be able to do it, so they should be able to do whatever they are capable of in order to get it.

But now that argument is also falling apart, you simply go back to the “People should do what they want” as if you forget that that argument had already fallen apart.

Astralporing.1957:

As thus, i am painfully aware that the ceiling not only does in fact exist, but also is low enough to matter in even such a laid back game as this one.

People who will be incapable of finishing the raid will exist, there was hardly an argument against it by me, I didn’t say the infamous “everyone can do it”, others did and I disagree with that. I’ll pull some numbers out of thin air to illustrate the next point, because it’s easier with numbers, even fake ones.

Suppose that 10% of the GW2 population will finish the raid and find it enjoyable and “content for them”. My main concern was that the other 90% wasn’t failing the raid because they were incapable to do so. Maybe a 20-30% of that 90% won’t be capable of finishing the raid no matter what they do. That leave us with a 70-60% of players who are perfectly capable of finishing the raid (or any other challenging content) but they choose not to.

If we agree with the stats that I’ve seen posted around of ~10% hardcore, ~90% casual players in GW2, the above split fits it perfectly. Again, nobody has the numbers, I’m just contesting the point that 90% of the GW2 population won’t do the raid, because they are incapable of doing it. I refuse to believe that the vast majority of the players will be like that and instead see them as players who don’t want to do it, they don’t want the engagement or to put effort in playing that part of the game.

The actual reason I started this entire discussion a few pages back, was over putting exclusive rewards behind “easy” content as a reason to try it, and leave “hard” content without exclusives, which was the argument back then. The point of contention was that “difficulty” is based on the individual player, just like one player is unwilling to do the raid, because it’s too hard for them, similarly another player is unwilling to grind/farm, because it’s too hard for them. Hence the whole “incapable vs unwilling” discussion. Just so everyone can get the perspective here.

maddoctor.2738:

The point of contention was that “difficulty” is based on the individual player, just like one player is unwilling to do the raid, because it’s too hard for them, similarly another player is unwilling to grind/farm, because it’s too hard for them. Hence the whole “incapable vs unwilling” discussion. Just so everyone can get the perspective here.

That’s not really equivalent. In the group that finds grinding too hard there are no players that are incapable of it. Only those that do not like it. On the side that doesn’t raid, there are players that might have liked to raid, but they will be prevented from it by too high skill requirements.

TL/DR; there will be people incapable of doing raids, but there are no people incapable of farming (well, at least at the silverwastes level – i am sure there will be people farming and grinding raids after all).

And i still think, that if the raids will truly be challenging and difficult, then many more people will be incapable of participating than you assume.
(of course, the probability that Anet will fail in supplying actual challenge is also high).

Astralporing.1957:

TL/DR; there will be people incapable of doing raids, but there are no people incapable of farming (well, at least at the silverwastes level – i am sure there will be people farming and grinding raids after all).

Here, read this again:

Suppose that 10% of the GW2 population will finish the raid and find it enjoyable and “content for them”. My main concern was that the other 90% wasn’t failing the raid because they were incapable to do so. Maybe a 20-30% of that 90% won’t be capable of finishing the raid no matter what they do. That leave us with a 70-60% of players who are perfectly capable of finishing the raid (or any other challenging content) but they choose not to.

maddoctor.2738:

Astralporing.1957:

TL/DR; there will be people incapable of doing raids, but there are no people incapable of farming (well, at least at the silverwastes level – i am sure there will be people farming and grinding raids after all).

Here, read this again:

Suppose that 10% of the GW2 population will finish the raid and find it enjoyable and “content for them”. My main concern was that the other 90% wasn’t failing the raid because they were incapable to do so. Maybe a 20-30% of that 90% won’t be capable of finishing the raid no matter what they do. That leave us with a 70-60% of players who are perfectly capable of finishing the raid (or any other challenging content) but they choose not to.

You’re only counting a skill cap there. Time and organization are a factor. I don’t doubt my ability to do challenging content. I doubt my ability to join (or form) a group with a set time and raid until it’s done. Of that 60-70% you hypothesize, how many would WANT to do it, if it didn’t take hours of dealing with other people in a schedule?

SkiTz, why are you even still in this thread? You haven’t made a relevant post in 10+ pages, you just step in to personally insult Ohoni, without actually adding anything to the discussion. I wanted to leave this thread alone and just watch, but honestly, watching you interrupt actual discussion with insults every page or so is irritating. Try to at least follow the conversation. We know, you think Ohoni’s dumb and his ideas are dumb. Thanks for your contribution.

Ohoni: you’re trying to argue with people who really, truly believe that something they earn can be diminished by letting others have it too. Logic and reason won’t sway people who insist that they need to feel special by making sure nobody else can get what they have. If that means 90% of the players can’t get something, they’re fine with that. They want unique rewards for the content they enjoy, and expect everyone else to either do their favorite content, or go without. That’s who you’re arguing with. They’ll attack your motivations, but never acknowledge that their own motivations are purely selfish too.

Here’s something I’d love to see: ANet makes the announcement that each raid wing will have 3 full sets of skins: the very first boss kill will grant a full set of 18 skins to each player involved. For 24 hours, each boss kill will award 1 set (heavy, medium, OR light) to each player involved. After 24 hours, those skins would retire and never be in-game again. Now THAT would be incentive to be the very best, and be a truly unique (limited-time, skill-gated) reward. I wonder if the people who are arguing for “unique” rewards would be for this? Especially knowing that they might actually NOT get it, and might never.

Sounds fine to me actually, assuming the content had some sort of ongoing unique reward I’d be all for a unique set of “world first kill” skins.

People complained about the jetpack/monocle drop rates for instance. This was valid because the acquisition method for them wasn’t about being better at something, or getting extremely rare rewards for exceptional ability, alacrity, or going above and beyond. It had the same flaw as precursors do right now, its rarity was gated completely by RNG.

I’ve said this before, and I’ll say it again:

The idea that a thing can maintain its value when it is trivial to obtain (and all grind methods are tirvial to obtain) is a logical fallacy which does not take in to account the very real economic and physical definition of value and rarity.

There is a reason Chest skins command a higher price than champion dropped exotics in most cases. It’s not because of a sense of personal value based upon how much people like the skins. It is a simple economic fact of rarity = value.

Simply handing out 500 tokens for a raid and 1 token a day for logging in and using the same tokens to buy everything absolutely diminishes the value of those items in the same way that handing out a stanley cup to everyone who bought tickets to an NHL game would.

I’ve kept out of this as I felt I said my piece on it, but it’s ridiculous that certain posters are still espousing this idea that everyone deserves every reward for doing nothing special.

It’s not about people not having stuff. I don’t care if every single player also has the raid skins. I care that the players that do actually had to earn them in the same exact manner

That’s what gives them value. They’re trophies, not sensible blue jeans marketed by myriad vendors with varying brand names.

The real issue here is the idea that some people are concerned that there is something in the game they might not be able to obtain

Right now I have in my bank a tier 3 might boon. This item was mistakenly left on certain vendors at release. It was part of the old food buff system that they forgot to remove. You can no longer acquire it, and you’ll never be able to acquire it. it is functionally useless. You don’t care that I have that, but you very much care that perhaps someone will have a shiny armor skin that you don’t.

The position that “I don’t care if others have things and the people that do are selfish jerks” isn’t accurate. You’re worried that other people have things you don’t I don’t think a single person really cares how many people have the raid armor. What they care about is that every person who has it actually got it from a raid, just like every person with a legendary had to do world completion, every person with the liadri mini had to fight liadri, and every person with the GW2 ball cap was actually around at release.

Exclusivity is about those rewards having meaning in an intrinsic and irrefutable way. it’s about seeing an item and going ‘cool, where’s that from?’ and being able to say ‘well, to get this, you have to do something special, and I did that’ rather than ‘well, I got it the hard way, but you can buy it off the auction house by grinding silverwastes’

I realize the idea of trophies, and the use of skins as the highest value and thus most desirable trophies doesn’t make sense to you, but the fact that you’re even concerned that you might not have access to a skin says everything about why they make the best trophies.

Astralporing.1957:

maddoctor.2738:

The point of contention was that “difficulty” is based on the individual player, just like one player is unwilling to do the raid, because it’s too hard for them, similarly another player is unwilling to grind/farm, because it’s too hard for them. Hence the whole “incapable vs unwilling” discussion. Just so everyone can get the perspective here.

That’s not really equivalent. In the group that finds grinding too hard there are no players that are incapable of it. Only those that do not like it. On the side that doesn’t raid, there are players that might have liked to raid, but they will be prevented from it by too high skill requirements.

TL/DR; there will be people incapable of doing raids, but there are no people incapable of farming (well, at least at the silverwastes level – i am sure there will be people farming and grinding raids after all).

And i still think, that if the raids will truly be challenging and difficult, then many more people will be incapable of participating than you assume.
(of course, the probability that Anet will fail in supplying actual challenge is also high).

Not really falling for the “ahh poor people” vibe. I think by far most are capable of it. And sure a few might not be able to, just as some people are not able to run a marathon, and you know what, those people then also not get the medal. To bad, if everybody could easily get it, the medal would not be interesting.

You don’t design a system (a game, or really any system) around the exceptions, you design it around the average.

PopeUrban.2578:

People complained about the jetpack/monocle drop rates for instance. This was valid because the acquisition method for them wasn’t about being better at something, or getting extremely rare rewards for exceptional ability, alacrity, or going above and beyond. It had the same flaw as precursors do right now, its rarity was gated completely by RNG.

Those rewards where some of the best we have seen, including the way it was implemented. The RNG is fine as is creates re-playability..

There was however one huge problem with it, and that is that they where only available temporary. That is what made it really bad because if you did not get it to drop within the 2 weeks or so, the dungeon was up, you missed out on it.

If that dungeon would have been permanent, including it’s rewards it was perfect. We in fact need more of that, and those dungeons should get those rewards (with RNG) back, even if it’s in fractal.