Guild Wars 2

I don’t think using a combination of skills available to you as cheesy outs nor the devs simply “allow” it. There are cases of outright exploits but that’s not the case everywhere.

I think that a lot of the tactics you suggested, while not being outright “exploits” in the sense that they would be deserving of a ban, they do seem to be bypassing the intended way of dealing with the fight. Whether ANet chooses to do anything about that is entirely up to them, but if they want the content to actually remain challenging, and that is their stated goal, then they would have to patch out those tactics wherever they were found.

In the “old” dungeons all you are missing if you don’t use the meta builds is time. In the raid you might not even finish it. That’s the big difference.

That’s my point though, why shouldn’t you be able to finish if you lack a metabuild? if the build is given by ANet as an option, why should it not be a valid option with which you can play and succeed? If it is not a valid option with which you can play and succeed, they why would they even offer it?

There is no clear answer, no amount of hours or repetitions, the answer is simple: it depends on the content and the rewards (exclusives) it has. It will be much easier to give up on a jumping puzzle and go ask for portals because a) portals make it very easy b) there isn’t any kind of benefit if I finish it all myself.

We’re talking a raid-like content in this scenario, there would be no shortcuts, workarounds, or “please carry me” options, if you can’t pull your weight then you simple cannot ever get what’s on the other side, and for the purposes of the scenario, you are incapable of pulling the expected weight.

Now, if there was no way to get portals and there was an exclusive reward behind that jumping puzzle, chances are I would try it until I got it no matter how much time it would take.

So infinite time then? If it launched today, you could spend the next few years constantly banging your head against that wall, getting nowhere, until they closed the servers? That’s pretty depressing to contemplate.

I don’t think anyone knows their own limits especially for things they haven’t even tried.

You’d be surprised. And keep in mind, I’m still in favor of mechanisms to “get people to try” things, so I would expect everyone to try everything at least for a little bit. They would just be willing to gauge whether it’s something they can do, or want to do, and then make a decision and have that decision respected.

I see you remember how it all started. So you agree that if I don’t want to grind they should respect it. Remember this part:

I’ve always agreed that they should respect it, the point of disagreement was that I did not feel that it was equally as kittenomeone who genuinely couldn’t do it. If you don’t want to grind then you shouldn’t have to grind, but you are not equally as deserving of special dispensation as someone who genuinely cannot pass the intended content, no matter how determined they are.

It’s like how people can now bring animals on flights just because they get freaked out by flying and the animal helps them calm down a bit. I think that’s ok, they should be allowed that, but if you’re going to draw a line, they are not equally as deserving of bringing that animal as someone who needs an animal to help lead them around, or to detect seizures, or other more serious medical conditions.

If being unwilling and incapable was the same, why all the hostility?

Because again, they are not the same, they should not be considers the same, they are different, but they are both deserving of respect as players and reparation.

So can we come to an agreement then? Players should neither be required to grind nor required to pass high skill bars in order to earn the rewards they seek. If you prefer high skill challenges, then that should be an option, if you prefer a slower and steadier path, then that should be a reasonable option as well, and no player should be forced into one or the other that he does not prefer, or give up entirely on a given reward if he does not.

Way to go to disrespect a crippled man, real cool of you.

I have respect for his accomplishments, but that doesn’t mean that I think he could beat Liadri.

And you doubt there will be the option to punch on a training dummy for ten minutes in a GW2? Dude, are we playing the same game? That is exactly what all world bosses and dungeon bosses are right now. They’re basically just loot pinatas. I doubt raids will be much more difficult. Probably a little more difficult, but not so difficult that you as an healthy abelist man with working eyes and hands won’t be able to do them.

Some world bosses are that way because they are tuned for 150 people. Some dungeon bosses are that way because they allow stacking in corners. If I were a dev working on what was intended to be “challenging group content,” step 1 would be trying to eliminate any of those options. If people can just “punch a training dummy” to defeat the boss, then they’ve failed completely.

I don’t even understand your argument anymore. You don’t have to do activities you don’t want to do, that is the entire point of only cosmetics being rewards.

It would be far more damaging to the game to have little to no incentive to do content then it would be to have some skins locked to that content.

Nobody is talking about “no incentive to do content,” the incentive would eb to earn rewards, it’s just that the rewards would be spread around so that you could do the activities you wanted and earn the rewards you wanted, rather than be locked into a single reward for a single prize. Think of it like an arcade vs. a carnival. In a carnival, you typically have a bunch of booths with different games, each offering a selection of prizes. Want the giant SpongeBob? You have to play the mini-basketball. Want the giant bear? You have to play the ring toss. With an arcade, you typically have a bunch of different games that offer tickets, and then can exchange those tickets, from any of those games, for rewards at the booth.

What I’m saying, is that it should be the player’s choice. Have the carnival’s set-up. and if you want to go for the reward specific to that booth then you can, and it’ll cost you less “wins” to do it that way, but if you really want the bear, but really enjoy basketball a lot more than ring toss, then you can play the basketball game instead, and work towards earning that bear.

He still can’t seem to grasp that raids will be launching with exclusive skins.
PvP will be launching leagues with exclusive skins
Fractals will be improved/upgraded with exclusive skins.

No, I grasp the reality of it just fine, I just disagree that it is the correct choice, and I am pushing for change in that plan.

So in an effort to still try to move in that direction, they moved to another argument.. people might simply not be able to do it, so they should be able to do whatever they are capable of in order to get it.

Look, my positions have remained consistent. The actual sub-topics being discussed have shifted around because other people raise a question, and I answer it. That does not mean that what I want, or what I believe in has changed significantly, it just means that certain elements of the discussion are set aside while another is being discussed. It’s like if a waiter asks what you want to eat, and you say “steak,” and then he asks “and for your side?” you say “baked potato,” that doesn’t mean that you no longer want the steak, just that it’s not relevant to the topic currently on the table.

Suppose that 10% of the GW2 population will finish the raid and find it enjoyable and “content for them”. My main concern was that the other 90% wasn’t failing the raid because they were incapable to do so. Maybe a 20-30% of that 90% won’t be capable of finishing the raid no matter what they do. That leave us with a 70-60% of players who are perfectly capable of finishing the raid (or any other challenging content) but they choose not to.

Ok, I disagree with those numbers, I would go more with 20-30% would be capable, but just for the purposes of discussion I’ll go with your numbers for now, even if 60-70% of the people just “decided not to do it,” do they deserve no option for earning rewards that they want, without doing content that, whatever their reasons, they do not want to do? And what about the 20-30% of players that even you believe might be completely incapable of passing, do you not care at all that they’ll never receive the rewards they want?

You’re only counting a skill cap there. Time and organization are a factor. I don’t doubt my ability to do challenging content. I doubt my ability to join (or form) a group with a set time and raid until it’s done. Of that 60-70% you hypothesize, how many would WANT to do it, if it didn’t take hours of dealing with other people in a schedule?

I tend to fall into that camp as well. I am not at the highest skill level in the game, but I’m not too worried about my own ability to keep up in difficult content, I’ve done “most of the things” in this game. I’m personally more concerned about the concentrated time and group building involved in this, although I do respect those players who would hit the skill cap, and advocate for them as well.

Ohoni: you’re trying to argue with people who really, truly believe that something they earn can be diminished by letting others have it too. Logic and reason won’t sway people who insist that they need to feel special by making sure nobody else can get what they have.

I tend to agree, but I’m not really debating for the benefits of the participants so much as for the audience. I doubt I’ll ever get one of the hardliners to say “you know, that makes sense, let’s do that,” but that’s not the point. The point is to test and refine my ideas against the best rebuttals they can manage, until hopefully it convinces some people who are not actually engaged in the discussion, but have some means to do something about it. I mean, I could bring maddoc, Devata, and skitz all over to my side, and what would that accomplish? Not a thing. I’m after bigger game.

The idea that a thing can maintain its value when it is trivial to obtain (and all grind methods are tirvial to obtain) is a logical fallacy which does not take in to account the very real economic and physical definition of value and rarity.

I tend to agree on all points aside from your definition of “trivial.” If an item takes a relatively short, but brutal challenge to acquire, I don’t see that as having value different from an item that can be earned via a relatively easy, but time consuming method. The point is that you balance it out fairly. Having to work at something for months is not “trivial,” no matter how low-engagement that effort might be.

Simply handing out 500 tokens for a raid and 1 token a day for logging in and using the same tokens to buy everything absolutely diminishes the value of those items in the same way that handing out a stanley cup to everyone who bought tickets to an NHL game would.

First, nobody has suggested tokens as log-in rewards, just to get that out of the way. Second, if you could get 500 tokens for a raid and only 1 for logging in, then how would that devalue the raid item? I mean, even if the raid item only took 500 tokens, that would still be a year and a third for the other player to earn it. You would not consider that a reasonable time disparity? And considering that the raid would likely require multiple runs to actual earn the item, more like 2500+ tokens by that measure, it would take over eight years to earn enough tokens that way. You don’t think that’s enough?

It’s not about people not having stuff. I don’t care if every single player also has the raid skins. I care that the players that do actually had to earn them in the same exact manner

But just a minute ago you were saying that the entire point is “rarity = value,” and now you’re saying that rarity is entirely irrelevant to you, and instead that “identical effort” is what is important, that it’s important that everyone play how you play, enjoy what you enjoy. Which is it?

That’s what gives them value. They’re trophies, not sensible blue jeans marketed by myriad vendors with varying brand names.

Again, I do not agree that skins should be used as trophies. Trophies are trophies, they are hunks of metal that have no value beyond the status assigned by the act of earning them, whereas skins have value regardless of how they are earned. If the game wants to dispense exclusive trophies in the form of Titles, Outfits, actual trophies in the guild hall/home instance/inventory, then that’s all well and good, but it should not extend to weapons or armor skins.

You don’t care that I have that, but you very much care that perhaps someone will have a shiny armor skin that you don’t.

True.

The position that “I don’t care if others have things and the people that do are selfish jerks” isn’t accurate. You’re worried that other people have things you don’t

Not true. I don’t care that other people have it, and I don’t, I care that it exists in the game and I don’t have it. It has nothing to do with how many or few other players have the item, if it’s something that I want, then I want to have it. And it’s also not about having “everything,” exactly, it’s about having “anything.” I’ve already said that it’s unlikely that I’ll actually care about getting all the raid armor pieces, based on their track record most of it will look silly. But chances are that at least some of the pieces will be pretty cool, and I’ll want those pieces, at least.

just like every person with a legendary had to do world completion,

Or had a few thousand gold lying around.

I realize the idea of trophies, and the use of skins as the highest value and thus most desirable trophies doesn’t make sense to you, but the fact that you’re even concerned that you might not have access to a skin says everything about why they make the best trophies.

And the worst trophies.

Devata.6589:

You don’t design a system (a game, or really any system) around the exceptions, you design it around the average.

Agreed. And raiders are an exception, not an average.

Astralporing.1957:

Devata.6589:

You don’t design a system (a game, or really any system) around the exceptions, you design it around the average.

Agreed. And raiders are an exception, not an average.

Dungeoneers are an exception. SPvPers are an exception. WvWers are an exception- well you catch my drift.

We don’t know how many players will turn raider, nor do we have any specifics on how many players will be raiding as well as farming, or RPing in Divinity’s Reach, etc.

Don’t spin the argument here, you know exactly what Devata was referring to in this context.

Astralporing.1957:

Devata.6589:

You don’t design a system (a game, or really any system) around the exceptions, you design it around the average.

Agreed. And raiders are an exception, not an average.

Good. My point always was that (nearly) everybody can do raids, if they really want to.. (put in the effort of learning and training the skill) that’s how it’s designed.

Not around the few that might not be able to do it. And as we agree raids are designed this way, we can drop the “but some people can not do it” debate.

Most people will be able to do it, most people will even give it a try, whether most people keep on trying is debatable, and not likely, luckily the game is designed in such a way that there is other content that they are maybe more willing to do, they just will then not get the rewards belonging to the content they do not do. What is fine.

And for the point you are trying to make.. No GW2 should indeed not be designed around raiders. And guess what, it isn’t, even not when we they put unique rewards behind content, including challenging raids.

http://www.twitch.tv/woodenpotatoes/v/17208511 @1:46:30, gonna take wp’s advice and just imagine a 13 year old and ignore him.

I just wanna say one last thing, I love this game, and i’m really excited for heart of thornes, for raids just aswell as other stuff. Keep up the good work devs.

-37 to 2k replies.

At 2k Ohoni will unlock an exclusive chest where it will get a full legendary armor for free.

Lucky guy

Devata.6589:

Astralporing.1957:

Devata.6589:

You don’t design a system (a game, or really any system) around the exceptions, you design it around the average.

Agreed. And raiders are an exception, not an average.

Good. My point always was that (nearly) everybody can do raids, if they really want to.. (put in the effort of learning and training the skill) that’s how it’s designed.

Not around the few that might not be able to do it. And as we agree raids are designed this way, we can drop the “but some people can not do it” debate.

I actually don’t agree with you here. I am certain, that if the raids will be only as difficult as you claim they will, it won’t be enough for those that want challenge. And if they’ll be difficult enough to satisfy those people, then i really doubt that most people would be able to do it.

It seems, that what you really expect is for raids to be actually easy, but with a scary reputation that will keep people away and prevent thus others from having the same exclusives you will get. And i again say, that in such a case they have no reason to exist. No content should exist for the sole purpose of segregating players.

Astralporing.1957:

Devata.6589:

Astralporing.1957:

Devata.6589:

You don’t design a system (a game, or really any system) around the exceptions, you design it around the average.

Agreed. And raiders are an exception, not an average.

Good. My point always was that (nearly) everybody can do raids, if they really want to.. (put in the effort of learning and training the skill) that’s how it’s designed.

Not around the few that might not be able to do it. And as we agree raids are designed this way, we can drop the “but some people can not do it” debate.

I actually don’t agree with you here. I am certain, that if the raids will be only as difficult as you claim they will, it won’t be enough for those that want challenge. And if they’ll be difficult enough to satisfy those people, then i really doubt that most people would be able to do it.

It seems, that what you really expect is for raids to be actually easy, but with a scary reputation that will keep people away and prevent thus others from having the same exclusives you will get. And i again say, that in such a case they have no reason to exist. No content should exist for the sole purpose of segregating players.

What I except is for raid to be about the same difficulty as what you see in most MMOs. While GW2’s version might not require you to grind gear first (what by itself is a problem, because will you then scale the dungeon according to ascended gear stat, or exotic.. I would hope to ascended (Just for the record, I have almost no ascend gear) because it might become too easy in ascended).

So the same difficulty as for example the dungeon in the video somebody posted before in this thread. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9r34qSyYg0 (See 7:30). And I think that nearly every gamer is able to complete those dungeon when he is willing to put in the effort. Maybe it might take one person 5 tries, and another 8. But I think it is not physically impossible for the largest group of the game community. When you would define that as “easy”, that is up to you. Overall those raids are considered “hard” so I apply that term.

Content (including raids) do not have the purpose of segregating, raids have the purpose of providing a challenge to those who like that, but all content has the property of segregation. Some players will like and so do JP’s, other don’t. Some do dungeons, others don’t. Some do grind, other don’t. So all content segregates.

Fox.3469:

http://www.twitch.tv/woodenpotatoes/v/17208511 @1:46:30, gonna take wp’s advice and just imagine a 13 year old and ignore him.

Lol, well I guess he might then also imagine me as a 13 yo when he sees my raging (well I never rage, always say exactly how and why) about the gems-store focus vs expansion-focus.

On the other hand, in a recent video he even said that he did think that the lack of a hunt for items (freely translated) because they moved to the gem-store was one of the biggest problems for GW2’s endgame according to him.

And thats the main reason I don’t like it.. so I guess we are kinda on one line with that. It really touches the same subject, that is also why I refuse to ignore the gem-store / black lion weapons if it comes to the discussion at hand here.

Devata.6589:

What I except is for raid to be about the same difficulty as what you see in most MMOs.

In other MMO’s most of the difficulty comes from needing to fulfill gear requirements, so i’m sure this won’t be the case here.

Astralporing.1957:

That’s not really equivalent. In the group that finds grinding too hard there are no players that are incapable of it.

This is incorrect.

Astralporing.1957:

Devata.6589:

What I except is for raid to be about the same difficulty as what you see in most MMOs.

In other MMO’s most of the difficulty comes from needing to fulfill gear requirements, so i’m sure this won’t be the case here.

You are wrong. Gear may have more meaning in other mmo’s but the true catalist is understanding the fight.

What I except is for raid to be about the same difficulty as what you see in most MMOs. While GW2’s version might not require you to grind gear first (what by itself is a problem, because will you then scale the dungeon according to ascended gear stat, or exotic.. I would hope to ascended (Just for the record, I have almost no ascend gear) because it might become too easy in ascended).

I believe that a “raid that is as hard as raids in other games” would actually end up being harder in GW2. That is because raids in other games have a lot more fixed roles and inter-dependencies, and GW2’s combat involves both tactical button pressing, and also complex reactive movement that is often lacking in other MMOs. Assuming ANet succeeds in matching other MMOs in the “puzzle” layout of the raid, it would likely also involve a lot more twitch movement and reaction. And since it doesn’t have the Trinity, you can’t just unitask, and be a healer sitting in the corner, watching everyone’s bar go down and timing out your cooldowns, you have to do that while DPSing a bit, and avoiding incoming damage, because you’re DPSing and Tanking at the same time.

I remember DCUO having at least some of this, I ran some raid content in that game as mostly a Healer-spec, but even that game still had the Trinity, I had a very well defined primary role. GW2 lacks that, and while I generally see that as a strength of the game rather than a weakness, it does raise everyone’s personal responsibility level.

Of course they could choose to “auto-correct” this stuff, and make the puzzle mechanics easier than in other games, so that when combined with the added GW2 juggle, it averages out to “about as hard,” but if they aim to make the puzzle content “about as hard,” then the final result would be “way harder.”

Of course, even if it does end up being “about as hard,” the GW2 community may not be as cool with that as the communities that have built around different games. The GW2 community built around a game that did not have raids for three years, it’s perfectly reasonable for those players to have different goals and standards than players of WoW and other similar games.

Also, since GW2 doesn’t have gear progression, it lacks the ability for players to “outlevel” a raid like in many other games. If you suck at it today, you’ll suck at it next year too, you won’t have level 85 armor to carry you through.

Content (including raids) do not have the purpose of segregating, raids have the purpose of providing a challenge to those who like that, but all content has the property of segregation. Some players will like and so do JP’s, other don’t. Some do dungeons, others don’t. Some do grind, other don’t. So all content segregates.

Yes, and nobody is really arguing against that. If people don’t want to do raids, they shouldn’t have to do raids. The problem is that if the content segregates, and also segregates players from cool rewards that are relevant elsewhere in the game. Let’s use another potential, masteries. What if there were masteries that only raiding could unlock/clear? I’m not saying this is happening, I’m posing it as a thought problem. What if this were a thing, but, the masteries unlocked ONLY made any difference within raids. They were masteries that, say, gave you a defense against some raid boss that would never trouble you outside that raid.

That would be an example of a reward that would be fine to segregate into raids, because people outside of raids literally have zero use for it. Skins do NOT fit that criteria, because people’s use for raids are entirely subjective, and if someone tells you that he has a use for a given skin, you have zero right to challenge him on that, for any reason.

Lol, well I guess he might then also imagine me as a 13 yo when he sees my raging (well I never rage, always say exactly how and why) about the gems-store focus vs expansion-focus.

More. . . single-minded? I understand your goals, I just think that your inability to set them aside when they are so impractical tends to make reasonable discussion more difficult. I get why you want what you want, but since it would obliterate the funding mechanisms keeping the game afloat, and you haven’t yet figured out a way to balance that out, it isn’t really practical to discuss it. It’s like discussing evolution with someone who insists that the earth is under 6000 years old, and won’t entertain discussions to the contrary.

Skins absolutely fit that criteria specifically because skins do not have a use at all as purely cosmetic, non-mechanical rewards.

People don’t ever have a “use” for a skin, only a desire for it.

If there was a specific stat combo you could only pick up by raiding? That’s not cool, and not how GW2 works. Will they add additional legendary armor sets outside raids? I sure hope they will so people can get the little QoL stat swapping feature even if they just farm open world stuff all day.

Skins, however, are fine to segregate by content and have been done this way since release, including but not limited to being segregated not only by content, but by class and race as well because they don’t produce a barrier to accessing other content.

PopeUrban.2578:

Skins absolutely fit that criteria specifically because skins do not have a use at all as purely cosmetic, non-mechanical rewards.

People don’t ever have a “use” for a skin, only a desire for it.

If there was a specific stat combo you could only pick up by raiding? That’s not cool, and not how GW2 works. Will they add additional legendary armor sets outside raids? I sure hope they will so people can get the little QoL stat swapping feature even if they just farm open world stuff all day.

Skins, however, are fine to segregate by content and have been done this way since release, including but not limited to being segregated not only by content, but by class and race as well because they don’t produce a barrier to accessing other content.

/rant
Specific Stat combo you can only pick up from raiding? That’s not how GW2 works? Have you played since launch? Because that’s exactly how GW2 has always worked. They have always played specific combos or gear levels behind certain content.

At release you could only get certain gear in certain places. WvW only provided soldier stats. Karma vendors only provided 6 stat combos so if you wanted another you were forced into farming dungeons, which also provided a lot less tokens per run. Then it was ascended rings and if you wanted them you were forced into Fractals. Then it was amulets/earrings and if you wanted them you had to do fractals, guild missions, or dailies, which forced people to do things they didn’t want to do in their own right, Then ascended weapons/armor which forced people into crafting, which forced them into farming.

The idea that GW2 was built on letting people play they way they want was officially dead when ascended was announced. The funniest thing is they even did an Reddit AMA during the whole controversy and said it was a mistake to release Ascended with only one avenue to obtain it and that they would add more avenues soon. They kinda did with Dailies and guild missions although that still forced a large portion of players to forced into something. Then of course they completely forget that mistake and make ascended armor/weapons crafting only(.0001% drop rate doesn’t count). The biggest tell of all though is Karma. The supposed universal currency that allowed players to play the way they want and still be rewarded is…useless.

/rant

Top stats should be easily acquired and skins should be hard to obtain. That’s what the game was sold as and that’s how I think they need to design going forward. Raids should have some awesome looking skins and the legendary armor should require doing things in every part of the game, not just raids. They won’t do that though because without some giant carrot people will do the raids once and never return. Another major issue that ArenaNet has had with using skins as a carrot is that most of the skins are just not that great, at least not good enough to warrant doing a dungeon 50x for it.

Woah, calm down. The initial offering of most stat sets is content locked. Beyond that, however, they always end up making the recipies tradable or easily acquired through a braindead token grind of faceroll content.

Also, “crafting only” is not a content barrier, as crafting is not a content type. It’s a resource usage mechanic with no inherent challenge or gameplay, so that doesn’t even really count. Crafting is not a “play style” or “content type” it’s simply a thing the game expects you to do, like salvaging or using vendors. Whether people like that or not is another thing, but it’s right there in the DNA of every character as a “required” rather than “optional” element of play.

Point I’m making here is that people need to sit down and realize that Not having skins is not a mechanical disadvantage

I don’t know why you’re riffing on my post specifically, as I absolutely agree with you, as I said in the post. Skins are now and should remain the real “focus rewards” for content because they don’t create an underclass of lesser-equipped players if those players can’t or won’t do specific content for them. I’ve been saying that since the beginning. You are preaching to the choir,and you’re also preaching to a pope

Skins absolutely fit that criteria specifically because skins do not have a use at all as purely cosmetic, non-mechanical rewards.

Again, that is not true. Their use is subjective. If a player says “I have use for that skin, it would look nice on me,” then he is absolutely right, and you cannot argue against him on it. All you can do is argue that he does not have the right to receive what he wants, not that he needs it any less than any other player.

If there was a specific stat combo you could only pick up by raiding? That’s not cool, and not how GW2 works.

Agreed, but nobody needs a specific stat combo any more than they need a specific skin, it’s all subjective. They might want that specific stat combo, and to you the stat combo might be more important than the skin, but you cannot project your desires onto other people.

Point I’m making here is that people need to sit down and realize that Not having skins is not a mechanical disadvantage

And the point that I’m making here is that people need to sit down and realize that mechanical disadvantage is only more important than cosmetic availability if you choose to see it that way. It is not a universal fact. Nothing in a game is a need, everything in a game is a want. You want to have the best stats, you don’t need to have the best stats, and from your comments you seem to want to have the best stats more than you want to have your favorite skins, but this balance of desires is not true for all players, so dismissals of “well, you can’t have what you want, but you can have the things I want, so your concerns are not valid,” is not a constructive response.

Ohoni.6057:

Skins absolutely fit that criteria specifically because skins do not have a use at all as purely cosmetic, non-mechanical rewards.

Again, that is not true. Their use is subjective. If a player says “I have use for that skin, it would look nice on me,” then he is absolutely right, and you cannot argue against him on it. All you can do is argue that he does not have the right to receive what he wants, not that he needs it any less than any other player.

If there was a specific stat combo you could only pick up by raiding? That’s not cool, and not how GW2 works.

Agreed, but nobody needs a specific stat combo any more than they need a specific skin, it’s all subjective. They might want that specific stat combo, and to you the stat combo might be more important than the skin, but you cannot project your desires onto other people.

Point I’m making here is that people need to sit down and realize that Not having skins is not a mechanical disadvantage

And the point that I’m making here is that people need to sit down and realize that mechanical disadvantage is only more important than cosmetic availability if you choose to see it that way. It is not a universal fact. Nothing in a game is a need, everything in a game is a want. You want to have the best stats, you don’t need to have the best stats, and from your comments you seem to want to have the best stats more than you want to have your favorite skins, but this balance of desires is not true for all players, so dismissals of “well, you can’t have what you want, but you can have the things I want, so your concerns are not valid,” is not a constructive response.

There is a big difference between stats and skins.
Different stats objectively make 2 players of the exact same skill level have different damage output. The one with the higher stat, will do more damage. It makes one player better then the other, by pure numbers. Hence that one player has an advantage over others.
Skins are not better then other skins, some players may think of certain skins better then others, but that doesn’t make it so, they are subjective to opinion. They do not give one player advantage over another.

Mechanical advantage directly impacts the gameplay, since bosses die faster, content get easier and players aren’t treated equally. Different stat combo’s also have a direct impact on your gameplay.
Skins have 0 effect on the gameplay.

This guy is bringing up very valid points and gets attacked again for not a single good reason, without a single even close to valid argument. PopeUrban, don’t pay attention to Ohoni, your opinion is spot on.

There is a big difference between stats and skins.
Different stats objectively make 2 players of the exact same skill level have different damage output. The one with the higher stat, will do more damage. It makes one player better then the other, by pure numbers. Hence that one player has an advantage over others.

Yes, and that only matters if you CARE whether another player has a numerical advantage over you or not. I mean, of all my characters, only a handful have ascended weapons, only my main has ascended armor, the rest mostly have exotic, a few still have a piece or two of rares that I haven’t bothered to upgrade. And yet all of them have the armor skins on them that I want them to have.

The value you choose to put on performance is not an absolute value, especially in a game like this where you can still be highly effective with less than ideal stats.

Skins are not better then other skins, some players may think of certain skins better then others, but that doesn’t make it so, they are subjective to opinion. They do not give one player advantage over another.

But again, that is subjective. If one player wants a given skin, and another player has it, then that player does have an advantage over the first.

Mechanical advantage directly impacts the gameplay, since bosses die faster, content get easier and players aren’t treated equally. Different stat combo’s also have a direct impact on your gameplay.
Skins have 0 effect on the gameplay.

And nobody said that they did, but nobody said that they had to for them to matter.

This guy is bringing up very valid points and gets attacked again for not a single good reason, without a single even close to valid argument.

I know, and thank you, but I try not to take it personally.

Ohoni.6057:

Skins are not better then other skins, some players may think of certain skins better then others, but that doesn’t make it so, they are subjective to opinion. They do not give one player advantage over another.

But again, that is subjective. If one player wants a given skin, and another player has it, then that player does have an advantage over the first.

You don’t seem to be understanding what having an advantage means…
If one player wants a given skin, and another player has it, then that player is in the first player’s eyes better looking then him, but that doesn’t give him any advantage in playing the game, being better looking itself is not an advantage, at least not in a game. Having ascended gear over exotic, no matter how small the numbers, does give you the ability to kill mobs just that bit faster then someone who doesn’t have it (if that someone is equal to your skill lvl). That is having an advantage in the game.

The way your gear looks is irrelevant when it comes to having an advantage over others in this game. Numbers are not subjective, even if you don’t care about it, i still have an advantage over you if i’m fully ascended geared and you are not.

You don’t seem to be understanding what having an advantage means…

I would say “no, you don’t seem to be understanding what having an advantage means,” but that just sounds cheap. So I’ll explain:

• Advantage:
• a condition or circumstance that puts one in a favorable or superior position.

Now, if you are valuing your ability to do a certain content, or engage in direct combat with another player, then having superior stats would certainly give you an advantage. No question.

If you care about looking your best, then someone else having an armor piece that you want would, undeniably, put them in a more “favorable or superior position” to your own, just as him having +25 Power would.

It’s entirely subjective which advantage is of more interest to you.

If you tell me, “I could give you one of two things. I could give you a sword with stats that are 5% better than Ascended stats (but it looks like a normal ascended sword), OR I could give you a sword that has Exotic stats, but includes the Sunrise skin,” then I would take the Sunrise sword every single time, no hesitation. I assume you would take the higher stats sword, and that’s fine too, that’s your choice, just don’t assume that it’s an objective choice to make.

Ohoni.6057:

If you tell me, “I could give you one of two things. I could give you a sword with stats that are 5% better than Ascended stats (but it looks like a normal ascended sword), OR I could give you a sword that has Exotic stats, but includes the Sunrise skin,” then I would take the Sunrise sword every single time, no hesitation. I assume you would take the higher stats sword, and that’s fine too, that’s your choice, just don’t assume that it’s an objective choice to make.

I would also pick sunrise probally, well if i didn’t have it already. However, that doesn’t mean i’m so ignorant to claim that it would give me an advantage, or that this even is a real linked possibility in the game. Skins are flavor, just like tonics and outfits and titles are. They have no impact gameplay wise.

Don’t get me wrong, i like skins, in fact i love skins, so much that i have to buy transmutation stones from the gemstore from time to time to keep up how much i like swapping stuff around and trying new looks. However certain skins not being available to me, mostly the grindy ones, or the achievement point ones, since i hate doing the daily, does not in any way affect my gameplay.

I would also pick sunrise probally, well if i didn’t have it already. However, that doesn’t mean i’m so ignorant to claim that it would give me an advantage, or that this even is a real linked possibility in the game.

Again, you’re clinging to an incomplete definition of “advantage.” What you describe is, at best, “combat advantage,” and it’s true that a skin will not offer any combat advantage, but in a broad game like an MMO, combat advantage is not the only sort of advantage there is.

Skins are flavor, just like tonics and outfits and titles are. They have no impact gameplay wise.

And yet, you seem to value skins highly enough that you would place them above an objective combat advantage. That seems to indicate that even you value the advantage they bring, even if you don’t articulate that understanding as such.

However certain skins not being available to me, mostly the grindy ones, or the achievement point ones, since i hate doing the daily, does not in any way affect my gameplay.

But given what you say, I’m going to assume that it does effect your enjoyment of the game to some degree, and enjoyment of the game is the single most important factor. Whether you have combat advantage or not is just a subfactor of enjoyment, if you have better stats then content becomes easier and you tend to win more, which may result in more happiness, but the combat advantage is not the goal, the happiness is. If the skin leads to more happiness than the performance, then that is the greater overall advantage.

It is not a subjective definition. It is completely objective.

10% more of a stat is more

It doesn’t matter if you want to use it, need to use it, or if you care. It is actually more.

You’re arguing that having a choice between a red shirt and a blue shirt is the same as having a choice between a red shirt and a blue bulletproof vest.

You don’t have the get shot for the bulletproof vest to be better at stopping bullets

It’s a mechanical difference. Those differences are where GW2 draws the line and says “everyone should have equal access to this” because those differences are actually what have the potential to prevent you from running builds, running content, or playing at a handicap in WvW.

Skins are cosmetic and have no mechanical value.

They are locked in acquisition behind content, and locked from use behind class, gender, the gem store, character race, and a host of other factors for this exact reason

No one is disputing that skins are desirable. That’s the whole point. Skins are designed to be harder to acquire than stats on purpose, because they’re the primary reward model of the game. There is no objective definition of cosmetic “advantage” as the very word first necessitates an objective system to measure value.

Preferring one skin to another is not a matter of advantage it is a matter of preference

Preferring to have less stats to wear an item you think looks better is not a matter of advantage, it is a matter of preference.

You can’t treat “enjoyment” or “happiness” as an objective measuring stick and assign skins a numerical value that competes with stats because “happiness” is not objective.

You’re grasping at straws here.

We all know what you want. We know. You have explained it. You don’t need to go out on a limb to prove it is somehow objectively logical because it is not. it is a matter, like what skins or dyes someone likes, of preference.

You’d prefer all skins could be obtained by doing whatever you want. There is not an objective case for this any more than there is an objective case for the way the game already works, and will continue to work.

Stop treating your opinion as a scientific fact. You have made your point, yet you keep responding as if there’s some greater truth we’re all not getting, or that you’re saying 2+2 = 4 and we’re all like “no man, it’s seven”

We get it. We don’t agree with you, but we get it.

There is not going to be some epiphany or come to melandru moment here. We simply do not agree with your opinion.

xD are we going to need to ask devs to keep fashion balance now? Please nerf Guard and War they get more metal armour than me :**(

It is not a subjective definition. It is completely objective.

10% more of a stat is more

Yes, and a red that is closer to orange in the color spectrum is objectively of a lower wavelength, but just as it is subjective whether a more orangey red is more appealing to you, it is subjective whether more of a stat is appealing to you.

More of a stat is objectively more, just as more skin options are objectively more. How much each matters to you is entirely subjective, and you cannot argue that one is objectively more important than the other.

You’re arguing that having a choice between a red shirt and a blue shirt is the same as having a choice between a red shirt and a blue bulletproof vest.

You don’t have the get shot for the bulletproof vest to be better at stopping bullets

No, but you do have to decide whether it is more important to you whether you have protection from bullets or look your best. The Pope, for example, often chooses to do without the bulletproof glass on the Popemobile, because he values the opennes that affords him.

Preferring one skin to another is not a matter of advantage it is a matter of preference

No, preferring one skin is not a matter of advantage, having a desirable skin is an advantage. Preferring that skin is merely making note of that advantage.

Preferring to have less stats to wear an item you think looks better is not a matter of advantage, it is a matter of preference.

Exactly, and preferring to have more stats rather than wear an item you think looks better is also not a matter of advantage, it is a matter of preference, but getting the thing that you prefer, whichever that may be, is an advantage.

You can’t treat “enjoyment” or “happiness” as an objective measuring stick and assign skins a numerical value that competes with stats because “happiness” is not objective.

Well, you’re the first person talking about assigning them numerical values. That isn’t really a factor here, although in a sense the game already does this, by locking certain skins behind various conditions that are considered more difficult than others, it assigns them as having objectively more value than the others, although whether an individual agrees with their pricing is entirely subjective.

We get it. We don’t agree with you, but we get it.

Then why do you keep talking if you have nothing to say?

PopeUrban.2578:

It is not a subjective definition. It is completely objective.

10% more of a stat is more

It doesn’t matter if you want to use it, need to use it, or if you care. It is actually more.

You’re arguing that having a choice between a red shirt and a blue shirt is the same as having a choice between a red shirt and a blue bulletproof vest.

You don’t have the get shot for the bulletproof vest to be better at stopping bullets

It’s a mechanical difference. Those differences are where GW2 draws the line and says “everyone should have equal access to this” because those differences are actually what have the potential to prevent you from running builds, running content, or playing at a handicap in WvW.

Skins are cosmetic and have no mechanical value.

They are locked in acquisition behind content, and locked from use behind class, gender, the gem store, character race, and a host of other factors for this exact reason

No one is disputing that skins are desirable. That’s the whole point. Skins are designed to be harder to acquire than stats on purpose, because they’re the primary reward model of the game. There is no objective definition of cosmetic “advantage” as the very word first necessitates an objective system to measure value.

Preferring one skin to another is not a matter of advantage it is a matter of preference

Preferring to have less stats to wear an item you think looks better is not a matter of advantage, it is a matter of preference.

You can’t treat “enjoyment” or “happiness” as an objective measuring stick and assign skins a numerical value that competes with stats because “happiness” is not objective.

You’re grasping at straws here.

We all know what you want. We know. You have explained it. You don’t need to go out on a limb to prove it is somehow objectively logical because it is not. it is a matter, like what skins or dyes someone likes, of preference.

You’d prefer all skins could be obtained by doing whatever you want. There is not an objective case for this any more than there is an objective case for the way the game already works, and will continue to work.

Stop treating your opinion as a scientific fact. You have made your point, yet you keep responding as if there’s some greater truth we’re all not getting, or that you’re saying 2+2 = 4 and we’re all like “no man, it’s seven”

We get it. We don’t agree with you, but we get it.

There is not going to be some epiphany or come to melandru moment here. We simply do not agree with your opinion.

PopeUrban (so you don’t get confused again Ohoni) just gave the best solid argument as to why stats are totally different then skins, i couldn’t have done it better myself. Of course Ohoni couldn’t counter any of his arguments so he started trowing mud in the general direction and missed completely, only helping to enpower PopeUrban’s statement.

Well done PopeUrban

Btw Ohoni you are gloating over my answer to a question that was loaded, and unlike anything GW2 will ever be, grow up will you.
I’m starting to think WP is right, you are a 13 year old… At least in discussing this.

Making a raid without a tank or a dedicated healer,i am pretty sure raids will go the way of dungeon difficulty,

we have already seen content like fractals ,dungeons and world bosses with this setup, you think raids will be any different ??

Ohoni.6057:

It is not a subjective definition. It is completely objective.

10% more of a stat is more

Yes, and a red that is closer to orange in the color spectrum is objectively of a lower wavelength, but just as it is subjective whether a more orangey red is more appealing to you, it is subjective whether more of a stat is appealing to you.

I’m sorry, Ohoni, but in this case you are being wilfully dense. I don’t find bigger stats appealing at all (which is why i was against introduction of ascended gear), but a game advantage that they give is undeniable. I mean, the only situation where it doesn’t matter is if you are not playing at all.

Ohoni.6057:

More of a stat is objectively more, just as more skin options are objectively more. How much each matters to you is entirely subjective, and you cannot argue that one is objectively more important than the other.

That’s true, but that’s not what you are saying. Or rather, if that was all you were saying on the matter, i might agree with you. Unfortunately, you go further.

Ohoni.6057:

You want to have the best stats, you don’t need to have the best stats.

That’s true only on the same level as “you don’t need to play this game”. No, there are some game requirements that make having better stats advantageous and a no-brainer option. I mean, barring any other considerations, there is absolutely no advantage to not choosing the higher tier.

If you are presented two items that look the same but one has greater stats, you’d always pick that higher-stats one. In case of two items with identical stats but different look, the choice is not so obvious however (because in this case, it is a choice). The claim that “you don’t need better stats” so far has been used only by the group that supported introduction of ascended gear (and the fact that it is hard to acquire), and only as a cheap way to ignore the arguments of the other side.

By the way, I’m pretty sure, that even if you asked people that agree, in general, with you, you’d find that most of them (if not almost all) think that while skin exclusivity is bad, stat exclusivity would be even worse.

Fox.3469:

PopeUrban (so you don’t get confused again Ohoni) just gave the best solid argument as to why stats are totally different then skins, i couldn’t have done it better myself.

Well, of course they are. Apples and oranges. Now, what he didn’t give was the reason why that difference somehow makes skins a perfect choice for exclusivity.

My reasoning, agree with it or not, is that skins being exclusive do not have the potential to function as access gates for content. This is the model that WoW and a lot of other raiding setups work. Raiding gear is simply more powerful, and without those advantages you don’t even have the option of tackling subsequent raids. Without that gear you don’t have the option of walking through and cleaning up other content at a severely inflated power level.

So, my reasoning, and how I interpret Anet’s use of the system across GW1 and GW2.

• They are highly desirable rewards for all types of players. PvE, PvP, Hardcore, Casual, it seems that all players find skins more compelling rewards than titles, trinket icons, or other cosmetic systems due to the versatility, mix and match ability, and dye system.

• Not having access to a skin does not impact your ability to compete in PvP, or adequately fulfill a role or design a build for PvE content.

• Desire for specific skins is subjective, encouraging players to try content related to specific rewards that does not immediately funnel every player in to the same content. This is better for the overall longevity of all content, as different player desires will lead to different priorities rather than a “better stats” approach that simply funnels the entire player base in to whatever content pays out the “best” item (which they then skin with their preferred skins)

• Usability of skins is varied. Skins tend to have variant appearances and access across the range of playable races, genders, and classes, again creating a larger breadth of desirable content in stead of funneling everyone in to a single “best” reward.

That’s true only on the same level as “you don’t need to play this game”. No, there are some game requirements that make having better stats advantageous and a no-brainer option. I mean, barring any other considerations, there is absolutely no advantage to not choosing the higher tier.

But what about the example of choosing between the best stats and the best appearance? I mean, sure, if you ask someone in a vacuum to choose between +50 or +60 in a stat, they will choose the +60, but if you ask them to choose the +50 and they get an appearance they like, or +60 but it requires an appearance they like less, they might reasonably choose the +50, because they subjectively value the appearance over the stat difference. Another player might choose the opposite because he would subjectively value gameplay power over appearance.

By the way, I’m pretty sure, that even if you asked people that agree, in general, with you, you’d find that most of them (if not almost all) think that while skin exclusivity is bad, stat exclusivity would be even worse.

In some games I might agree with you, but given the way that scaling works in this game, having a minor stat advantage over other players in PvE really doesn’t make a whole lot of difference. In some games, a lack of ideal stats can make certain gameplay impossible, thus making those stats necessary to enjoying the game fully. In GW2, having those stats just makes things slightly easier.

In this game if they introduced a new set of armor that was as far above Ascended as Ascended is about Exotic, but it still used the Ascended skins, and they offered another set that just has Ascended stats, but had a unique skin that I quite liked, I might want to get both, but if forced to choose, I’d definitely go with the latter.

My reasoning, agree with it or not, is that skins being exclusive do not have the potential to function as access gates for content.

Which is true, but stats in GW2 do not act as a gate for content either. The only gear that even marginally acts as a gate is Ascended gear in Fractals, and even then it only applies to the higher tiers. Raids aren’t likely to be gear-gated, I fully expect people to be tackling them in Exotic armor. Armor can be used for gear-gating, and other games do, but GW2 doesn’t, so it’s a moot point in relation to GW2.

Desire for specific skins is subjective, encouraging players to try content related to specific rewards that does not immediately funnel every player in to the same content. This is better for the overall longevity of all content, as different player desires will lead to different priorities rather than a “better stats” approach that simply funnels the entire player base in to whatever content pays out the “best” item (which they then skin with their preferred skins)

With a balance of rewards though, you can just have people playing the content they enjoy, which should spread them out just as well.

Usability of skins is varied. Skins tend to have variant appearances and access across the range of playable races, genders, and classes, again creating a larger breadth of desirable content in stead of funneling everyone in to a single “best” reward.

This can apply to stats too, wherein if some people want Power stats, while other want Condi or balanced stats, and content offers specific stat bonuses, people might migrate towards their preferred stats.

It’s highly unlikely that would ever happen, as GW2 (and indeed most modern MMOs) are designed around the admission that players generally want to have the best possible stats for their build, and want to have freedom in their cosmetic appearance. Thus, we have transmutation systems and reward systems designed not to make use choose one or the other.

Creating a system in which you were forced in to a binary choice between a skin or better stats would be a massive step backward not just for GW2, but for MMOs in general. Giving plaers the option of acquiring both, and only asking them to prioritize on an individual level the order in which they do so and the level of importance they place in either is a much better way to go about it, and in general the GW2 system that essentially ensures that stats are widely accessible (because they impact play) and skins are not (because they have completely subjective rather than objective value) is a reward system that retains the idea of unique and interesting loot without the annoyance of actually requiring you to acquire specific loot from specific content in order to do other content.

Exclusivity is about having meaningful rewards for content while allowing you to actually determine on a personal level which rewards are meaningful to you.

As a thought experiment, let’s say you could log in tomorrow and completely unlock every skin. From that point forward what rewards would you find desirable?

It’s easy to say “I’d play content because it was fun” of course you would. However that’s not going to last when everything gained from playing that content is essentially meaningless.

Collection titles, skins, and every reward tweak to the game since release has been about making content not only fun, but rewarding because the vast majority of players find that rewards from doing things are just as important as doing things being fun.

“Loot is boring” has been a thorn in the side of GW2 for a long time, and one of its largest complaints. It is not a baseless complaint either. Most of the things you pick up in the game are carbon copies of things you can pick up anywhere else in the game. People don’t complain about blues and greens because of the stats or gold value, but because there is nothing interesting or exciting about getting the same item from a silverwastes chest as you get from killing shatterer. It begs the question “Well why would I bother to do shatterer more than once?” from most of the people in the world that aren’t Ohoni because production and release of PvE content can not keep up with its rate of consumption. Once you’ve done a piece of content once, you have, in terms of its fun factor, largely consumed that content.

What makes repeated completion of a piece of content compelling is the rewards. Those can take many forms, but the one people seem to agree universally are the most fun and interesting are skins.

These are the reasons people are proponents of exclusivity. It’s not about bribery, or limitations, but rather about feeling that what you’re doing is special and different than the other things you could be doing, and that the lasting mark on your character as a result is reflective of the stuff you did.

When skins are homogenized, the result is that the specific pieces of content you did to get them are homogenized. People don’t farm silverwatses because it’s the most fun content in the game. They do it because the things they want can be had with gold, and it’s the most efficient way to get gold. When the things you want can’t be had simply by trading currency, it shifts people away from the time/gold efficiency mindset, and spreads players throughout the game on a series of diverse and invidual quests for those things.

It’s highly unlikely that would ever happen, as GW2 (and indeed most modern MMOs) are designed around the admission that players generally want to have the best possible stats for their build, and want to have freedom in their cosmetic appearance. Thus, we have transmutation systems and reward systems designed not to make use choose one or the other.

I’m not saying that it is likely, I was merely posing it as a hypothetical to examine people’s reaction to that situation. I was highlighting how much players do value cosmetics over stats, to the point that they might take that deal.

As a thought experiment, let’s say you could log in tomorrow and completely unlock every skin. From that point forward what rewards would you find desirable?

I don’t know that there is anything in particular I’d be shooting for, but I will remind you that I’m not in favor of doing that, or of making skins in any way easier to acquire overall.

It’s easy to say “I’d play content because it was fun” of course you would. However that’s not going to last when everything gained from playing that content is essentially meaningless.

Right, which is why there should be some reward process, but there’s no need for those rewards to be tied to any specific content. You should basically be playing the game as a whole for the rewards, but within that game you should be playing the activities you want because you enjoy them.

but because there is nothing interesting or exciting about getting the same item from a silverwastes chest as you get from killing shatterer. It begs the question “Well why would I bother to do shatterer more than once?”

And the answer should be “because I find the Shatterer to be a fun and engaging experience.” I doubt many people would find that it is, but it should be. If it is not, then the correct answer should be “I shouldn’t do Shatterer more than once, because it is not a fun or engaging experience.”

Players should not do things that they do not enjoy.

What makes repeated completion of a piece of content compelling is the rewards. Those can take many forms, but the one people seem to agree universally are the most fun and interesting are skins.

And yet, even in the current system, people tend to gravitate towards content that is seen as the “most rewarding” in terms of generic loot, rather than towards content that offers unique skins.

When skins are homogenized, the result is that the specific pieces of content you did to get them are homogenized. People don’t farm silverwatses because it’s the most fun content in the game. They do it because the things they want can be had with gold, and it’s the most efficient way to get gold. When the things you want can’t be had simply by trading currency, it shifts people away from the time/gold efficiency mindset, and spreads players throughout the game on a series of diverse and invidual quests for those things.

In an overly idyllic world, sure, that’s what it does. In the real world, it presses players into grinding content that they do not enjoy, in order to access rewards that they do want, when they could be having more fun doing something else. Silverwastes is not a problem because the game provides generic loot, Silverwastes is a problem because it provides too much loot for too little effort. They could easily solve this by simply providing less loot or requiring more effort, they have done neither.

Again, perfectly balancing loot/effort is difficult and unlikely, but it is possible to do a better job of staying on top of it. The best situation would be to have everything in as close to a balance as possible, but then deliberately rotating what the “best” source is with daily/weekly/monthly shifts to the payouts from certain activities.

PopeUrban.2578:

What makes repeated completion of a piece of content compelling is the rewards. Those can take many forms, but the one people seem to agree universally are the most fun and interesting are skins.

These are the reasons people are proponents of exclusivity. It’s not about bribery, or limitations, but rather about feeling that what you’re doing is special and different than the other things you could be doing, and that the lasting mark on your character as a result is reflective of the stuff you did.

You do realize, that works only for the people that wanted to do that content in the first place? If you didn’t want to do it (because you don’t like the content, or, even worse, are not skilled enough for it), then it achieves the result exactly opposite. It makes you feel that what you are doing is a boring and painful slog, that saps the fun out of the game.

Besides, of course it is about bribery (“noone would be doing it otherwise”) and limitations (“it would be worthless if everyone could get it”).

Well, it doesn’t matter if you like it or not.

Exclusive skins were also just confirmed from the raid devs on stream from twitchcon

example was the tongue boss has a cool new shield skin, only available in raid.
Other bosses will have other exclusive skins (One of the boss has a pretty cool flamethrower that is a rifle skin and a Napalm backpack)

There will also be guild hall exclusive items to show off

That is in ADDITION to the precursors for the legendary armor….

So there you have it, even more exclusive stuff from raids. Love it.

And the tongue guy mini. Don’t forget him.

They do seem enthusiastic about it. Rubi said it was great to see these rewards given for doing specific content.

Astralporing.1957:

PopeUrban.2578:

What makes repeated completion of a piece of content compelling is the rewards. Those can take many forms, but the one people seem to agree universally are the most fun and interesting are skins.

These are the reasons people are proponents of exclusivity. It’s not about bribery, or limitations, but rather about feeling that what you’re doing is special and different than the other things you could be doing, and that the lasting mark on your character as a result is reflective of the stuff you did.

You do realize, that works only for the people that wanted to do that content in the first place? If you didn’t want to do it (because you don’t like the content, or, even worse, are not skilled enough for it), then it achieves the result exactly opposite. It makes you feel that what you are doing is a boring and painful slog, that saps the fun out of the game.

Besides, of course it is about bribery (“noone would be doing it otherwise”) and limitations (“it would be worthless if everyone could get it”).

In the broadest definition all forms of reward are bribery there is, however, a difference between effective bribery that encourages and rewards different content differently, and ineffective bribery like what you’re proposing, that only rewards the single least difficult and most efficient path toward a given reward

It’s easy to think we live in a world where people would do content just because it’s fun and be happy with getting more tokens from harder content, but it’s simply not true. If it were we’d see it as the predominant reward model. After you’ve done every given piece of content a few times fun takes a back seat to advancement and reward

LS2 is some of my favorite content. I have done it about five times now. However, I’m not going to run it a sixth time because At some point repeating an experience just for the experience is not fun any more

Exclusive rewards encourage people to try new content. They exist to extend, through what you pejoratively term ‘bribery’ and I call ‘fun loot’ the life span of a given piece of content because try as you might, it is impossible to push content at a rate that exceeds player consumption.

You’re going to be repeating something when you play a game like this. The goal of a fun and interesting loot system is that when you repeat something you enjoy you come out the other end with something unique to show for it.

A bad loot system says “yeah, you beat the end of the world like thirty times, here’s the same thing you could have obtained by picking flowers for three months while you watch netflix”

Should there be an exclusive reward for people that pick flowers for three months and watch netflix? Absolutely! Should the end result, mechanically, of all forms of play be the same? Absolutely! Should players expect to have access to every reward in the game if they are not also willing to tackle every type of content in the game? I don’t believe they should.

If I’m not willing to grind out 1200 daisies for the legendary armor of ultimate daisy picking, I shouldn’t have it, the same as if someone isn’t willing to work with a team of 9 people to fight the tongue monster shouldn’t have the legendary armor of tongue monster slaying.

It is my opinion, and it seems to be the opinion of the developers of this game that all content should be rewarding, but all content should not, however, have the same rewards.

The loot really isnt the main issue to discuss about raids anymore, imo.

The big issues are that;
Its the main endgame activity (challenge and goal)
It requires 10 men
It looks like it will need highly specific playstyles and builds (waiting for healer)

Feels like raids are going to highlight all the flaws of raids in other games and have little to no connection to the old gw2 ideals.

Gw2 raids should have been designed to be, easy to attempt
Able to be organically organized
Involve combat that requires reaction and short term prediction over stat crush
Designed to have many ways to solve a problem with various play types (guaranteed dmg bad)
Not require waiting for x role

Really seems like raids are at odds with gw2 design, and seems like gw2 is changing to accomodate raids rather than vice versa. Not looking forward to the effects on the game

phys.7689:

Really seems like raids are at odds with gw2 design, and seems like gw2 is changing to accomodate raids rather than vice versa. Not looking forward to the effects on the game

They do, and I wouldn’t have minded them being so if they were just more rewarding for their challenge, but the fact that they are being used to bridge the gap between the end of heart of thorns and the next story arc is upsetting. If these raids are as elite as stated, as a casual player who enjoys the lore I’m afraid I’m going to miss out on story.

phys.7689:

The loot really isnt the main issue to discuss about raids anymore, imo.

The big issues are that;
Its the main endgame activity (challenge and goal)
It requires 10 men
It looks like it will need highly specific playstyles and builds (waiting for healer)

Feels like raids are going to highlight all the flaws of raids in other games and have little to no connection to the old gw2 ideals.

Gw2 raids should have been designed to be, easy to attempt
Able to be organically organized
Involve combat that requires reaction and short term prediction over stat crush
Designed to have many ways to solve a problem with various play types (guaranteed dmg bad)
Not require waiting for x role

Really seems like raids are at odds with gw2 design, and seems like gw2 is changing to accomodate raids rather than vice versa. Not looking forward to the effects on the game

Did you watch the stream about raid design? They specifically made a point to address that they go out of their way to design the raid so that there isn’t a situation where “need class X” is a thing.

They are designing the raids around GW2’s combat system, and the changes to the combat system and PvE roles in general have more to do with build variety than raid design.

In fact, the process of designing raids has allowed skill and profession designers to ferret out unbalanced PvE builds and generally work toward a healthier game.

The point is that up until now you only really had to play the entire combat system in PvP. In PvE all you played was damage, reflect, dodge. That was boring compared to the extremely intricate PvE systems we had in GW1 where knowing enemy abilities, key interrupts, target order, range, and party composition was actually important, and the content was actually challenging.

PopeUrban.2578:

Did you watch the stream about raid design? They specifically made a point to address that they go out of their way to design the raid so that there isn’t a situation where “need class X” is a thing.

They also said that the raids will need specific group configurations. It may not be “Need Class X”, but it will be “Need role X”. And not only specific roles will be limited to only few classes each, but some of those roles will be roles that people in general do not like to play.

And so it seems that “LF Healer for Raid” will be a thing in the future.

phys.7689:

The loot really isnt the main issue to discuss about raids anymore, imo.

And it should be over by now. They even announced that not only you will get legendary armor precursors from the raid but also unique skins from specific bosses (like a unique shield skin from one of them)

Its the main endgame activity (challenge and goal)
It requires 10 men
It looks like it will need highly specific playstyles and builds (waiting for healer)

I don’t see any problems with the first two. Although the endgame of GW2 was supposed to start at level 1, it didn’t work that way and players were still looking for that imaginary thing called endgame. It’s a good thing that they want to increase the challenge rating in the game and make it more active, and giving new goals is always important.

The 10-player requirement isn’t so far fetched either. It’s 2 parties, and they specifically said that they won’t change the boon system for the raid, so it might be that they have put plans to split into 2 (or more) groups at certain points. I don’t think having 10 players stacking in a corner will be good for the game, I think they will avoid it as much as possible.

The last part is the most important one. Unfortunately with the Druid reveal, it seems like they want to add dedicated healing in the game. How good or bad it is will depend on how easily a raid team can compensate for the lack of a dedicated healer by having multiple extra healing skills.

PopeUrban.2578:

phys.7689:

The loot really isnt the main issue to discuss about raids anymore, imo.

The big issues are that;
Its the main endgame activity (challenge and goal)
It requires 10 men
It looks like it will need highly specific playstyles and builds (waiting for healer)

Feels like raids are going to highlight all the flaws of raids in other games and have little to no connection to the old gw2 ideals.

Gw2 raids should have been designed to be, easy to attempt
Able to be organically organized
Involve combat that requires reaction and short term prediction over stat crush
Designed to have many ways to solve a problem with various play types (guaranteed dmg bad)
Not require waiting for x role

Really seems like raids are at odds with gw2 design, and seems like gw2 is changing to accomodate raids rather than vice versa. Not looking forward to the effects on the game

Did you watch the stream about raid design? They specifically made a point to address that they go out of their way to design the raid so that there isn’t a situation where “need class X” is a thing.

They are designing the raids around GW2’s combat system, and the changes to the combat system and PvE roles in general have more to do with build variety than raid design.

In fact, the process of designing raids has allowed skill and profession designers to ferret out unbalanced PvE builds and generally work toward a healthier game.

The point is that up until now you only really had to play the entire combat system in PvP. In PvE all you played was damage, reflect, dodge. That was boring compared to the extremely intricate PvE systems we had in GW1 where knowing enemy abilities, key interrupts, target order, range, and party composition was actually important, and the content was actually challenging.

apparently they made a huge miscalculation, because they thought the problem was needing a specific class. It was, and has always been, needing a role that people dont enjoy playing. Coming from FFXI, where it was common to level multiple classes to max level, the problem wasnt really, no one has a healer, it was no one wants to play their healer.
Even in gw1, i had a smiting assassin sub monk. I had no problem with the monk class, but i didnt want to play healer.
The reason there is never enough healers and tanks in mmos, is because few people want to play that role.
Why is it, if they have 5 dps classes 2 healers and two tanks, that a 6 man party always has to wait for a healer? because few people wanted to play heals.

if i only had a ranger, i still wouldnt want to heal. the fact that my class can do it is completely irrelevant.

Also they are ignoring gear, which is a huge tax on inventory and will probably cost like 100 gold or more for alll the exotic pieces,

maddoctor.2738:

phys.7689:

The loot really isnt the main issue to discuss about raids anymore, imo.

And it should be over by now. They even announced that not only you will get legendary armor precursors from the raid but also unique skins from specific bosses (like a unique shield skin from one of them)

Its the main endgame activity (challenge and goal)
It requires 10 men
It looks like it will need highly specific playstyles and builds (waiting for healer)

I don’t see any problems with the first two. Although the endgame of GW2 was supposed to start at level 1, it didn’t work that way and players were still looking for that imaginary thing called endgame. It’s a good thing that they want to increase the challenge rating in the game and make it more active, and giving new goals is always important.

The 10-player requirement isn’t so far fetched either. It’s 2 parties, and they specifically said that they won’t change the boon system for the raid, so it might be that they have put plans to split into 2 (or more) groups at certain points. I don’t think having 10 players stacking in a corner will be good for the game, I think they will avoid it as much as possible.

The last part is the most important one. Unfortunately with the Druid reveal, it seems like they want to add dedicated healing in the game. How good or bad it is will depend on how easily a raid team can compensate for the lack of a dedicated healer by having multiple extra healing skills.

the problem is not that 10 man content exists, its that its the main challenging content going forward. Gw2 has a lot of low man type players, soloist, and small group types. They should also have some challenging endgame activities/goals for them, that are not about grinding.

But the biggest issue with the 10 man and the lockouts specific roles needed, it basically means this is going to end up being full of drama and problems.
all the problems like, when can all 10 guys get on
healer had to work late
jimmy has beef with sarah
2 guys want to raid, but raid team is busy for the week
jimmy the healer got all his drops he doesnt want to play anymore
Sam wants to play his dps ranger, but we need replacement for jimmy.

the more people required, the harder it is to organize, and the more screw ups. 1 week lockouts reduces the amount of skilled people participating.

you can basically copy paste all the flaws in other MMOs right in here, because nothing they have done eases the logistics. In fact they are less equipped than other MMOs which has item level checks, role checks, and teired raids, such that people are generally at the skill level of each raid, because they beat easier ones.
they also gonna have mastery rank check issues.

man, what a mess.

xarallei.4279:

And the tongue guy mini. Don’t forget him.

They do seem enthusiastic about it. Rubi said it was great to see these rewards given for doing specific content.

Yeah, great to see that Anet seems to finally understand what was so wrong with their reward system and that they are fixing it now.

I still have some reservation about how it will work in practice. If they keep the gem-store focus they are almost forced to put the best items in there to get people to buy them, what would totally ruin the ‘special’ rewards from specific content, and to really get this to work, it should be implemented in much more content, not only raids and PvP, but also the dungeons we already have, JP’s, events and so on.

We will see, but it for sure is a step in the right direction. Something I was very much h oping for with HoT, in fact something I see as a must for making HoT a success.

phys.7689:

man, what a mess.

I can imagine a guild team of 10 getting ready to do the raid. But everyone is an experienced player and they are all in full Berserker gear so they can finish dungeons/fractals faster. Now, how do you choose which players need to buy new gear for their characters so they can fill the now mandatory roles.

It’s funny, when it comes to gear for raids, legendary armor is the best answer, but to get legendary armor you need to finish the raid first. Unless of course the “other” roles will be filled with Exotic gear and not Ascended.

you can basically copy paste all the flaws in other MMOs right in here, because nothing they have done eases the logistics. In fact they are less equipped than other MMOs which has item level checks, role checks, and teired raids, such that people are generally at the skill level of each raid, because they beat easier ones.
they also gonna have mastery rank check issues.

That’s another major problem with their raid system. Going from difficulty 1/10 to difficulty 10/10 with nothing in between isn’t going to help the raids. The devs say they don’t want attunement quests to make the raid more accessible, but is this accessibility worth it? Players who’ve only finished the open world parts of the game will have hardly the skill and ability to do higher difficulty content, yet Anet will allow them to enter, then those players will be slaughtered by the first non-boss mob and never look back at raids.

Some difficulty progression is important, but there is none here.

So right. Now that we have shifted the focus slightly, let’s talk about ‘Tanking’ and ‘Healing’ for a bit.

I can’t speak from the healing perspective, however I was involved in much of the end-game from towards the end of Vanilla WoW to the end of WotLK hard-mode playing both DPS and Tank.

I can confirm everyone’s fear here of the problems with ‘Finding a Good Healer’ or ‘Finding a Good Tank’. If I wanted to play Damage, I expected to wait like a peasant. If I played Tank, as soon as I announced ‘LFG Kara Warrior Tank’ there would be a flood of whispers in my chat like I was royalty (Even though people in BC liked Paladins more because Consecreation was a thing).

The problem with Tanking though, was although the job entailed a much stronger presence in a raid and held more responsibility, performing the job was…more or less sitting in a spot. Or perhaps turning the boss, keep the adds on you, keep threat as high as possible. As a tank, I realized my job wasn’t quite killing the boss as much as keeping it from its killers. Sometimes playing the off-tank felt more rewarding because off-tanking might entail some running around and controlling mobs here and there, putting them into corners for our damage to kill.

I don’t know if its the same for Healing, but the job was boring, despite the fact that when Tank loot dropped I was guaranteed it more or less.

The damage side had more of a raider vibe, and sometimes it turned into a competition where my friends would try to out-damage each other on a boss which would show up on the damage meters we had running. If you died playing damage, the encounter could very well succeed still though it was sort of a demerit on your damage that fight and we would laugh at how you died. The atmosphere for playing damage was so much more fun than playing a tank, where calling cooldowns for certain boss actions would be life or death, yet the numbers you pumped out as a tank were abysmal.

Now, in GW2 we got a glimpse on what the raids would require. Yes, so far we have gotten hints that players will end up needing to swap traits and likely gear around to fill the role requirements. Control is more or less having someone running a substantial amount of CC in their build rather than optimizing for damage, and perhaps likely tankier gear to absorb a lot of hits. Support sounds to me like a role requiring key boon application (like a well-timed protection) and additional sustain for your group’s sustain. There may be a required amount of healing power for what profession/build you are running to fit that Role.

All this being said, GW2 combat is so substantially different that I don’t believe it would turn into something completely uninteresting to play a control or support role. ‘Threat’ for tanking is weird in this game, and I doubt there will be a true tank role, just a guy doing enhanced CC at certain phases and taking a mechanic to the face rather than letting his backline zerker/condition allies go down. ‘Healing’ was as far as I know, just straight up keeping allies alive with healing and if there was downtime, auto-attack to preserve cooldowns and mana. Support should be more active, given how many abilities with support capabilities have actual mechanics tied to them. If playing a Control or a Support is actually fun rather than straight up damage, then these fears will go away.

Finally, as an added point, there is a huge difference between what a Tank’s damage would push out in WoW, versus what a Control player would theoretically push out in a raid. Tanks would do something like 10-20% of a damage player, and a healer (given auto-attacking) would be even less. Control and Support players shouldn’t be doing such an extremely low amount of damage in HoT, many stat combos have a damage stat associated after all.

Astralporing.1957:

PopeUrban.2578:

Did you watch the stream about raid design? They specifically made a point to address that they go out of their way to design the raid so that there isn’t a situation where “need class X” is a thing.

They also said that the raids will need specific group configurations. It may not be “Need Class X”, but it will be “Need role X”. And not only specific roles will be limited to only few classes each, but some of those roles will be roles that people in general do not like to play.

And so it seems that “LF Healer for Raid” will be a thing in the future.

We can only hope so.. because one of the problems with combat in GW2 was that it missed roles. No roles means you all kinda do the same and your participation does not feel that meaningful.. Not like where you as healer are indeed needed to heal up the group and so play an important role.

And before anybody says “but that does not fit with GW2”. That is nonsense. What GW2 did try was to give any multiple professions the ability to fulfill multiple roles, and instead of DPS, Tank, Healer they had Damage, Support, Control. Only the implementation of this horribly failed making everything DPS, and making nobody in a group really fulfilling a special role.

One may only hope they succeed in setting up a new role system for HoT. While indeed it does look like it’s not Damage Support Control anymore as they clearly talked about healers and tanks, but also about support.

As far as I know they did not revealed / told yet how they envisione it now, but to me it looks like they now try to set up.. Control, Healer, Tank. Next to that, everybody has some extent of Support and Damage.

Not sure how that will work out, but we will see.

Personally I would have loved to have seen roles more based around profession. Like pets or minion and DPS role (rangers / necro), speed and invisibility-role (mesmer and thief) and so on.

phys.7689:

PopeUrban.2578:

phys.7689:

The loot really isnt the main issue to discuss about raids anymore, imo.

The big issues are that;
Its the main endgame activity (challenge and goal)
It requires 10 men
It looks like it will need highly specific playstyles and builds (waiting for healer)

Feels like raids are going to highlight all the flaws of raids in other games and have little to no connection to the old gw2 ideals.

Gw2 raids should have been designed to be, easy to attempt
Able to be organically organized
Involve combat that requires reaction and short term prediction over stat crush
Designed to have many ways to solve a problem with various play types (guaranteed dmg bad)
Not require waiting for x role

Really seems like raids are at odds with gw2 design, and seems like gw2 is changing to accomodate raids rather than vice versa. Not looking forward to the effects on the game

Did you watch the stream about raid design? They specifically made a point to address that they go out of their way to design the raid so that there isn’t a situation where “need class X” is a thing.

They are designing the raids around GW2’s combat system, and the changes to the combat system and PvE roles in general have more to do with build variety than raid design.

In fact, the process of designing raids has allowed skill and profession designers to ferret out unbalanced PvE builds and generally work toward a healthier game.

The point is that up until now you only really had to play the entire combat system in PvP. In PvE all you played was damage, reflect, dodge. That was boring compared to the extremely intricate PvE systems we had in GW1 where knowing enemy abilities, key interrupts, target order, range, and party composition was actually important, and the content was actually challenging.

apparently they made a huge miscalculation, because they thought the problem was needing a specific class. It was, and has always been, needing a role that people dont enjoy playing. Coming from FFXI, where it was common to level multiple classes to max level, the problem wasnt really, no one has a healer, it was no one wants to play their healer.
Even in gw1, i had a smiting assassin sub monk. I had no problem with the monk class, but i didnt want to play healer.
The reason there is never enough healers and tanks in mmos, is because few people want to play that role.
Why is it, if they have 5 dps classes 2 healers and two tanks, that a 6 man party always has to wait for a healer? because few people wanted to play heals.

if i only had a ranger, i still wouldnt want to heal. the fact that my class can do it is completely irrelevant.

Also they are ignoring gear, which is a huge tax on inventory and will probably cost like 100 gold or more for alll the exotic pieces,

Having specific roles is a good thing and is fun.. without it you get exactly the complain you hear some much about in GW2.. everybody does the same, dps, dps, dps..

But yes, it can become a problem when there is one role you require but nobody wants to play. So you need to try and make all roles interesting to play. Personally I enjoy the healer and Tank roles, so never really had this problem in other games. But I agree it is a problem you do see.

On the other hand, that ‘problem’ is also not that big. I don’t mind having to wait a bid before having a group.

Still they should try to make all roles fun to play.