Guild Wars 2

Yes.

Jerus.4350:

Guardians in Dungeons/Fractals almost always want Master of Consecrations making virtues really a must have for that content, now you can’t just slot 2 and call it a day.

This is where I see the problem this causes. I’m not going to gut another line just to get 1 useful trait, and be forced to pick between others that aren’t really bringing anything useful. The only master/grandmaster traits I see myself using are Absolute Resolution and Indomitble Courage, both of which are only going to be situationally useful.

I take WoR when it’s needed, and knocking 1 point off another line (I usually have 1 in Virtues anyway) for MoC when it’s important isn’t a big deal. But changing an entire spec line definitely is. One trait isn’t worth breaking 1/3 of my desired build.

We’re not getting any more diversity when the extra 4 trait points have to go into unwanted traits simply to keep what we have now.

I hear ya, but those extra 4 trait points are also free

You won’t be able to play with your other 12 though the way you used to be able to. No more 46202 build, no more 35042, but there will be quite a few variations within the combinations of 6 we have IMO. Could even potentially see going Medi build when I solo some dungeon stuff now that I don’t have to sacrifice as much to get it.

Jerus.4350:

MattyP.6954:

Jerus.4350:

MattyP.6954:

Killing build diversity? We don’t really have it now. We have the illusion of diversity while everyone shoves themselves into half a dozen cookie cutters, especially when pugging in dungeons. (Heaven forbid you try to not run a zerker when playing as a ranger).

I’m really hoping that more supportive/tanky builds become PvE viable with HoT.

Supportive is a huge thing already. Tanky will never become good though, you’re meant to actively defend yourself and stripping passive defenses to build up offenses will always be preferred assuming you can survive.

Supportive builds are common in PvP and WvWvW but are almost completely absent in PvE content (Silverwastes is actually an exception to this, largely because it behaves a lot like WvWvW). Running a world boss? Go Zerker. Running with Pugs in a Dungeon? Go Zerker.

I’ve been kicked from a pug group for running a condi build on my engineer—haven’t even tried running one with my shout warrior.

Stop for a second. Go back and look at the game and try to understand it. What is support? Ask yourself that question.

Support is not about healing, support is about buffs and blocks and negation of effects. That’s support in this game.

Right now the meta for Guardian in most dungeons is 45005, why 5 in virtues? You could get more damage running a 66200 build by a good amount, or 46202 w/ unscathed contender. But why is the meta so deep into virtues? SUPPORT! Master of Consecrations allows you to chain reflects with WoR and SotA for like 36s strait, HUGE addition. Then what about the other major trait in Virtues? It’ll bounce, basic one is Absolute resolution for the 3 condi instant cleanse on use of Virtue of Resolve… great trait, Indomitable courage is also used for the extra stability in some situations, and then slotting Unscathed contender can be a nice little damage boost if the other two aren’t going to be used.

So no, you’re absolutely wrong. Zerker is NOT a build it’s GEAR, Gear does NOT help support much at all. You have Healing power which scales horribly on purpose and that’s it. Vit/Toughness do not contribute to support. These “support” builds people talk about are often more tanky builds than actual support builds focusing on self preservation. I hear things like AH soldiers guard being called supportive, well it’s not, it’s a selfish tanky build that doesn’t help your group at all unless you properly use your tools in the same way a zerker guard would. If a person in Zealot gear came in saying they ran support, I could respect that, but that’s not what most people who run “support” are doing, they’re just being selfish.

ZERKER IS GEAR NOT A BUILD! get it through your head. Support is not heals but more the tools you use to boost your team and help them avoid damage. Learn to play GW2, this is not WoW or any other MMO, it’s a different concept, there is no trinity.

I don’t usually like being so blunt and rude, but god it’s getting old. People really should undertand this game by now, it’s not overly complex. And if you don’t know why you got kicked from a group for running condi, then again, learn the game, though might be a waste at this point with condi stuff changing >.<

Done with the incessant lecturing? Yes, I am familiar with the fact that there is no trinity in this game (and yes, I even run a somewhat glassy ranger), and I am familiar with the fact that support involves condi cleanse, and boons (I run a shouts warrior ffs). Support also includes things like keeping poison up on mobs to limit their heals—supply blinds and knockdowns where appropriate and, you know, generally helping the party with non-dps.

In my experience, pug dungeon runs (things are much more fun with my guild, btw) amount to basically “Stand in the corner and dps-race the mobs before we all go into down state.” That’s not a fun, rewarding gameplay experience.

You have perfectly demonstrated the issue I have with some of the less savory parts of the community of this game. If you don’t bow to the shrine of the Meta and play exactly how everyone “should” play, you get berated, called a noob and kicked from a group even if you’re the one reviving all of the glass that doesn’t know how to dodge.

I play well, and I’ll play the builds that I enjoy playing and actually, you know, be creative with how I do it.

Morfedel.4165:

I’m not saying it IS doing this. I’m legitimately asking, curious whether others think this may be true.

I ask the question because, first of all, the Revenant: isn’t getting much skill selection from what we have seen. Weapon sets, and two legendaries which pretty much seem to fill slots 6-10 for you.

Second of all: it was that you could mix and match traits from several lines. Now, you get three. Or, two and an elite specialization. So I can essentially have three trees fully chosen, not 6 that I can pick and choose (to some extent anyway)

As such, it concerns me; it looks to me at first glance that we are having our build choices reduced for all classes, and very little choice for the Revenant at all.

But I’m not saying I’m right here, and I’d love to be proven wrong. So tell me, what do you think about this?

Potential build diversity does not equal actual build diversity. Right now there a lot of builds you could run, but those build are not viable and so wont be played. By restricting our choice it makes it easier for Anet to balance traits. Hopefully this will mean that their is more viable builds, and thus more actual diversity.

MattyP.6954:

Done with the incessant lecturing? Yes, I am familiar with the fact that there is no trinity in this game (and yes, I even run a somewhat glassy ranger), and I am familiar with the fact that support involves condi cleanse, and boons (I run a shouts warrior ffs). Support also includes things like keeping poison up on mobs to limit their heals—supply blinds and knockdowns where appropriate and, you know, generally helping the party with non-dps.

In my experience, pug dungeon runs (things are much more fun with my guild, btw) amount to basically “Stand in the corner and dps-race the mobs before we all go into down state.” That’s not a fun, rewarding gameplay experience.

You have perfectly demonstrated the issue I have with some of the less savory parts of the community of this game. If you don’t bow to the shrine of the Meta and play exactly how everyone “should” play, you get berated, called a noob and kicked from a group even if you’re the one reviving all of the glass that doesn’t know how to dodge.

I play well, and I’ll play the builds that I enjoy playing and actually, you know, be creative with how I do it.

My problem is not that you don’t ‘bow tot he shrine of the Meta", it’s that you complain about this:

MattyP.6954:

Running a world boss? Go Zerker. Running with Pugs in a Dungeon? Go Zerker.

Zerker/assassin/sinister is going to be the best gear because defensive stats are not needed in PVE unless you are unable to properly defend yourself (and your team), and healing power is intentionally crippled in power. It’s how things work.

The reason I like the proposed changes so much is actually because I think non meta builds will see a rise in use, the loss for taking non meta traits will be far less. If I want to grab fortified turrets on my Engi to help with reflects, I can at the loss of recharge on my toolbets/static discharge basically, not a huge deal. Currently it means dropping like 20%+ in modifiers, toolbelt recharge, and static discharge. Making it basically not worth it to do.

So no, I’m not asking you to bow to any meta, I just ask that people stop complaining that the glass stats perform the best, and ask that they understand that support in this game is not a gear thing, but a trait/utiity skill/weapon thing.

It just really bugs me when people claim that there are no support builds, because personally I’m all about supportive play styles, and I do it in zerker. I run D/F usually on my Ele to help where I can, and not afraid to swap water for condi cleanse or heal when I run staff. I run D/P a lot on thief for the defiance/blind stuff, I will swap in Elixir U/Net Turret and other stuff on my Engi if I think it’ll make things easier. I love support, being zerker does not mean you don’t play support. Playing meta doesn’t mean you don’t play support either, just means you drop anything you find superfluous, personally I like having some safety nets sometimes So I’m not always meta.

Zeick.2891:

Morfedel.4165:

I’m not saying it IS doing this. I’m legitimately asking, curious whether others think this may be true.

I ask the question because, first of all, the Revenant: isn’t getting much skill selection from what we have seen. Weapon sets, and two legendaries which pretty much seem to fill slots 6-10 for you.

Second of all: it was that you could mix and match traits from several lines. Now, you get three. Or, two and an elite specialization. So I can essentially have three trees fully chosen, not 6 that I can pick and choose (to some extent anyway)

As such, it concerns me; it looks to me at first glance that we are having our build choices reduced for all classes, and very little choice for the Revenant at all.

But I’m not saying I’m right here, and I’d love to be proven wrong. So tell me, what do you think about this?

Potential build diversity does not equal actual build diversity. Right now there a lot of builds you could run, but those build are not viable and so wont be played. By restricting our choice it makes it easier for Anet to balance traits. Hopefully this will mean that their is more viable builds, and thus more actual diversity.

That’s not necessarily true. Being non-meta and not being played are two different things. I’m constantly experimenting with new ideas. Some work, others don’t, but that doesn’t mean they aren’t being played. Just played less than the meta builds.

Zeick.2891:

Potential build diversity does not equal actual build diversity. Right now there a lot of builds you could run, but those build are not viable and so wont be played. By restricting our choice it makes it easier for Anet to balance traits. Hopefully this will mean that their is more viable builds, and thus more actual diversity.

When you take a massive hammer to potential diversity, you end up taking out a lot of viable options in the process. The question that remains is whether or not they can actually make up for that loss and have some gain on top of it, in a much more strictly limited system.

In my opinion, they are trying too much at once. It’s a massive over reaction. I think it would be best to keep the trait mergers/changes, but hold off on the other restrictions.

mrstealth.6701:

Zeick.2891:

Potential build diversity does not equal actual build diversity. Right now there a lot of builds you could run, but those build are not viable and so wont be played. By restricting our choice it makes it easier for Anet to balance traits. Hopefully this will mean that their is more viable builds, and thus more actual diversity.

When you take a massive hammer to potential diversity, you end up taking out a lot of viable options in the process. The question that remains is whether or not they can actually make up for that loss and have some gain on top of it, in a much more strictly limited system.

In my opinion, they are trying too much at once. It’s a massive over reaction. I think it would be best to keep the trait mergers/changes, but hold off on the other restrictions.

Then post what has been stamped out in here

so that ANet knows what will be removed from the game. They can then figure out what can be fixed.

runeblade.7514:

mrstealth.6701:

Zeick.2891:

Potential build diversity does not equal actual build diversity. Right now there a lot of builds you could run, but those build are not viable and so wont be played. By restricting our choice it makes it easier for Anet to balance traits. Hopefully this will mean that their is more viable builds, and thus more actual diversity.

When you take a massive hammer to potential diversity, you end up taking out a lot of viable options in the process. The question that remains is whether or not they can actually make up for that loss and have some gain on top of it, in a much more strictly limited system.

In my opinion, they are trying too much at once. It’s a massive over reaction. I think it would be best to keep the trait mergers/changes, but hold off on the other restrictions.

Then post what has been stamped out in here

so that ANet knows what will be removed from the game. They can then figure out what can be fixed.

That thread seems to be more about specifics and builds/playstyles that are being completely destroyed, not builds that are “salvageable” or have a “close enough” counterpart in the new system. What I’m saying is that I don’t think salvageable or close enough are good enough.

We can’t expect everything to survive any sort of balance update, but the massive cut in available options is going to big impact on the number of unique working builds.

I have a good number of builds that are mostly going to survive (in their general purpose), but I’m seeing variations reduced down to a single similar build. Where I see variation and choices to be a made in the current system, I see the new system herding me into obvious choices.

I think a lot of the new mesmer grandmaster (and some in other tiers) choices are a great a example of this. There are often clear “decisions” for a shatter, phantasm, and interrupt based builds. Some very blatant, obvious non-choices. Some of these traits do exist now, but the way they are placed in traitlines/tiers gives choice and variation. And there is always the option, currently, to choose to pass on such grandmaster traits in favor or more adept/master choices. This new system removes that in favor of herding each type of build into very narrow options.

Zeick.2891:

Potential build diversity does not equal actual build diversity. Right now there a lot of builds you could run, but those build are not viable and so wont be played. By restricting our choice it makes it easier for Anet to balance traits. Hopefully this will mean that their is more viable builds, and thus more actual diversity.

There isn’t a situation in which a build is not viable, in the great majority of PvE. Not optimal? Sure. Not viable? As easy as PvE is? It would be very hard for something to not be viable; you can probably get a character without any traits and do 99% of the PvE content in the game with it.

Really, the only group that talks about a build being “viable” is the dungeon speed running community. ArenaNet cares that much about those players that they aren’t even going to add dungeons in HoT, so…

Right now, the game has a lot of build diversity, as you can try any build combination and succeed. Want to play a 3/3/3/3/2 elementalist build? If you have fun with it, go ahead, you’ll evenually finish events like anyone else. Want to play a Guardian build focused on spirit weapons? It will be slower than other builds, but if you are playing to have fun and you enjoy that playstyle, go for it.

What ArenaNet is about to do is removing the ability of playing how we want, and instead making we play how they want.

And that, under the pretense that professions will be better balanced. To which I ask – if ArenaNet did not manage to balance the current traits after 3 years, to the point in which there were people saying almost all builds available are bad, what makes you think they will actually manage to balance an entire reworked sets of traits plus the new specializations any time soon?

Test.8734:

Zeick.2891:

Potential build diversity does not equal actual build diversity. Right now there a lot of builds you could run, but those build are not viable and so wont be played. By restricting our choice it makes it easier for Anet to balance traits. Hopefully this will mean that their is more viable builds, and thus more actual diversity.

There isn’t a situation in which a build is not viable, in the great majority of PvE. Not optimal? Sure. Not viable? As easy as PvE is? It would be very hard for something to not be viable; you can probably get a character without any traits and do 99% of the PvE content in the game with it.

Really, the only group that talks about a build being “viable” is the dungeon speed running community. ArenaNet cares that much about those players that they aren’t even going to add dungeons in HoT, so…

Right now, the game has a lot of build diversity, as you can try any build combination and succeed. Want to play a 3/3/3/3/2 elementalist build? If you have fun with it, go ahead, you’ll evenually finish events like anyone else. Want to play a Guardian build focused on spirit weapons? It will be slower than other builds, but if you are playing to have fun and you enjoy that playstyle, go for it.

What ArenaNet is about to do is removing the ability of playing how we want, and instead making we play how they want.

And that, under the pretense that professions will be better balanced. To which I ask – if ArenaNet did not manage to balance the current traits after 3 years, to the point in which there were people saying almost all builds available are bad, what makes you think they will actually manage to balance an entire reworked sets of traits plus the new specializations any time soon?

Ehh, if ANet holds true to their assertions that “challenging group content will be coming”, then viable will be a thing. Whether they will follow through with that or not… well I’m not holding my breath. (beta is being done through random drops in silverwastes…I wonder what kind of player they want?)

Nike.2631:

FrizzFreston.5290:

Erm, how did you get 418?

There are 6 master traits, not 4.

Upon review I did overcount by 20 (398 rather than 418). Thanks for making me stare at it more closely .

Really? There’s only 13 traits in a line. 3 are grandmaster. 6 are adept. :p I had to look on wiki myself too though.

Anet is destroying build diversity now so they can add much greater diversity later. We’re going to get more Elite Specializations in the future and each elite specialization will provide us with an entirely new trait line, a new weapon, new utilities, and a new elite, as well as fundamentally change how we interact with our profession mechanic. This will create far more build diversity than a bunch of weak traits almost no one used to begin with.

MiniEquine.6014:

FrizzFreston.5290:

MiniEquine.6014:

For a current 6/6/2 combination, my numbers are correct. If you do the math out like I explained above, it will make sense.

Your numbers for the “now” part are still incorrect. You simply added two amounts of combinations together without taking into account of all the different combinations of those combinations. (Oh dear) You did exactly the same thing for the new system (27*27*27) but no (594 *594) )

Not to mention that the 6 * 9 * 11 part is incorrect as well as it doesn’t take into account that it doesnt matter what order you pick the adept or master work traits in. (IE.: I, III, IV is the same as IV, III, I )

So no, that number is not correct at all.

A couple of things. First, please don’t use condescending “oh dears”. Explain your math or don’t bother. Now, onto the meat.

I took a look at the current system and, to my surprise, found that certain combinations produced far greater results in terms of number. For example, 6/4/2/2 produced a whopping 15,396,480 different combinations (nearly half of all possible). In all, there were 32,965,584 different combinations with the current system, but you’re right, this does not factor in repeat traits combinations but in a different order. For a filled line of traits in the current system, I have found 233 unique combinations. I used the following:

S(i=1 to 6 [i] (S(j=i+1 to 10 [j](S(k=i+2 to 13 [k])))) = # of combinations

That’s just a rough formula I used that starts at the lowest combination of traits (1,2,3) and works its way to the top with #1 (up to 6) less than #2 (up to 10) less than #3 (up to 13).

However, I did not “simply add two amounts” together. Probability is multiplicative, so I’m not sure where you thought I did that.

I don’t know where you got 594*594 from. The 27^3 is correct for the number of trait combinations in any three trait lines. If you think it’s not, please show your work. I already showed mine up above, and I’m not the only one coming to these numbers.

Edit: this forum does not like Sigma.

I already explained it. Everyone skipped over it I think. You need to reread your own posts really as it said *2 traitlines. I didn’t make it up or something. I even retyped those numbers to see if that’s how you got that specific 200k number and it did, which is likely to be more than others did. That it does give that number doesn’t mean it’s right though.. I also don’t care if other people came to the same. Math isnt a matter of who has the most people doing it their way.
That said I did at least say that my method could be just as wrong.

The 594 = 6 * 9 * 11 you did. 27 ^3 is because of 3 traitlines. Then 594*594 or 594^2 is when you have two traitlines completely full. Although I got 188 instead of that 594. Explanation of that is in my earlier posts. Feel free to check it out and say it’s wrong if it is.

Ehecatl.9172:

Anet is destroying build diversity now so they can add much greater diversity later. We’re going to get more Elite Specializations in the future and each elite specialization will provide us with an entirely new trait line, a new weapon, new utilities, and a new elite, as well as fundamentally change how we interact with our profession mechanic. This will create far more build diversity than a bunch of weak traits almost no one used to begin with.

Three years into the game using a system that was advertised as “made to be easy to add more to later”, and we’re ending up with half as many traits. I’d rather not wait another ten years to theoretically have as many options as we have now, in a system still far more restrictive in letting you use them.

There are an awful lot of people saying “no one used” the non-meta traits. You personally interviewed all the many thousands of players on that, then? Or did Anet release a graph of detailed trait use information that I missed? I should think a lot fewer people would be having differing opinions for you to disregard if they weren’t losing out in this deal.

If there’s a jar filled with jelly beans and they remove every color but red, it’s sure going to LOOK like there’s a lot more red, because now it’s all you can see. But it doesn’t mean there’s more, and just because red is your favorite doesn’t mean the jar is now therefore better for everyone than it was.

They didn’t remove that many traits they merged them together. At least make a analogy that preserves most of the traits effects while also limitting the variance. Some became baseline, some were merged together and some were removed. So if anything. You could buy a packet of one colored jellybeans. You always picked a special combinatiin of sachels. Then they decided to make mixed bags of jellybeans who always had a few standard jellybean colours. Which merged all similar tasting beans together in one sachel and outright removed some tastes in order to bring out new and never seen before tastes.

I run a lot of builds that depend on more than 3 trait lines, as well as use 2 major instead of one major one master, and the new system won’t cater for it.

I’ll wait and see what new traits and weapons etc they add to see whether it suits my play style and whether I just move to whatever is the new ‘meta’ build or continue to use my own.

Having stats shoved onto armor/weapons will make it interesting to see how those stats come out and how they interact with the new trait choices.

mtpelion.4562:

Right now, “build diversity” means “select the damage increasing traits so that you are using the exact same build as everyone else”.

Due to the way they are changing traits, it seems like there will be a LOT more build options now since we aren’t going to be shoehorned into taking the same selection as everyone else in order to get max DPS out of it.

You mean we will be “shoehorned” into set types of builds but from anet itself rather than….wait nvm it will be from both anet and the general trending meta itself.

Oh and the fact that it has to be full on 6 points invested into only three lines so you can’t slightly diversify….why even call them trait points/trait lines anyways…..why even call them builds at all. They would be more like predetermined templates since that’s what anet wants, set in stone builds that can’t be personalised.

Ironic how anet have made an expansion something to dread rather than expect within a positive manner.

The Primary.6371:

Ironic how anet have made an expansion something to dread rather than expect within a positive manner.

Speak for yourself. I have very positive feelings about these changes.

Gaaroth.2567:

Here’s the thing.
Is the total number of possible combination dropping? Yes.

Where all the possible combinations viable? No.

Is the total number of useful builds dropping? Sadly, yes. Some classes will get better out of this (guard specifically seems to come on top here, even if some builds got completely annihilated due to inability to spec in more than 3 lines), but others not so much (ele build diversity for example doesn’t look that hot to me in the new system at all).

In general, i see less options (actual, not just possible) in the new system than we have now – with the possible exception for the guardian (which still will get some nice build diversity, albeit at the cost of weapon diversity. And losing the flexibility of the old builds)

FrizzFreston.5290:

MiniEquine.6014:

FrizzFreston.5290:

MiniEquine.6014:

For a current 6/6/2 combination, my numbers are correct. If you do the math out like I explained above, it will make sense.

Your numbers for the “now” part are still incorrect. You simply added two amounts of combinations together without taking into account of all the different combinations of those combinations. (Oh dear) You did exactly the same thing for the new system (27*27*27) but no (594 *594) )

Not to mention that the 6 * 9 * 11 part is incorrect as well as it doesn’t take into account that it doesnt matter what order you pick the adept or master work traits in. (IE.: I, III, IV is the same as IV, III, I )

So no, that number is not correct at all.

A couple of things. First, please don’t use condescending “oh dears”. Explain your math or don’t bother. Now, onto the meat.

I took a look at the current system and, to my surprise, found that certain combinations produced far greater results in terms of number. For example, 6/4/2/2 produced a whopping 15,396,480 different combinations (nearly half of all possible). In all, there were 32,965,584 different combinations with the current system, but you’re right, this does not factor in repeat traits combinations but in a different order. For a filled line of traits in the current system, I have found 233 unique combinations. I used the following:

S(i=1 to 6 [i] (S(j=i+1 to 10 [j](S(k=i+2 to 13 [k])))) = # of combinations

That’s just a rough formula I used that starts at the lowest combination of traits (1,2,3) and works its way to the top with #1 (up to 6) less than #2 (up to 10) less than #3 (up to 13).

However, I did not “simply add two amounts” together. Probability is multiplicative, so I’m not sure where you thought I did that.

I don’t know where you got 594*594 from. The 27^3 is correct for the number of trait combinations in any three trait lines. If you think it’s not, please show your work. I already showed mine up above, and I’m not the only one coming to these numbers.

Edit: this forum does not like Sigma.

I already explained it. Everyone skipped over it I think. You need to reread your own posts really as it said *2 traitlines. I didn’t make it up or something. I even retyped those numbers to see if that’s how you got that specific 200k number and it did, which is likely to be more than others did. That it does give that number doesn’t mean it’s right though.. I also don’t care if other people came to the same. Math isnt a matter of who has the most people doing it their way.
That said I did at least say that my method could be just as wrong.

The 594 = 6 * 9 * 11 you did. 27 ^3 is because of 3 traitlines. Then 594*594 or 594^2 is when you have two traitlines completely full. Although I got 188 instead of that 594. Explanation of that is in my earlier posts. Feel free to check it out and say it’s wrong if it is.

SEE THE POST BELOW

I know math isn’t subjective. I do now acknowledge that my previous method for calculating the old trait lines was incorrect. After reviewing my work (and sleeping on it a bit :P ) I have reorganized my calculations and found the number of combinations.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1H9KAc7ghxmrxsq0bkWNALddKMkETmdQ1dW-eS7Xa8Hc/edit?usp=sharing

This should be the correct representation of the old values, so long as the revised methods I used still hold water. Sheet 1 will show how I found the different, non-repeating trait combinations for each tier (please feel free to see if this is accurate, but I did double-check this). That means for a filled line there are 233 unique combinations, a master-filled line there are 39 combinations, and for an adept-filled tier there are 6 combinations. For each trait line, the number of trait combinations are multiplied together in addition to the possible trait line combinations. [s] It seems that 5/5/4 yields the most results at over 21,000,000 combinations by itself.

80,399,886 [/s] (Seed Edit 2) 59,638,286 different combinations in total. The only thing this does not consider is swapping lines to get different minor traits for the odd-number-filled lines, but at this point I think it can get a bit excessive to bother factoring that in (especially since it does not add that many more combinations, in the long run).

Let me know what you think, or if you have anything to add.

Edit:
Sheet 1 is the non-repeating combinations sheets
Sheet 2 is the calculations sheet

Edit2: I found an error where I accidentally had 5/5/4 with the adept lines all filled. This was incorrect and has been revised, significantly reducing the number of combinations down to 59 million

Edit3: I can’t get strikethrough to work

Edit4: There are some errors I’m fixing with it, but I have found them.

Okay, NOW it should be good.

6/4/2/2 yields the most results with 19,627,920 different combinations
3/3/3/3/2 yields the least results with 7,776 different combinations
66,713,226 different possible trait combinations with the current system
196,830 different combinations with the new system
99.7049% reduction in trait combination by switching to the new system.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1H9KAc7ghxmrxsq0bkWNALddKMkETmdQ1dW-eS7Xa8Hc/edit?usp=sharing

MiniEquine.6014:

Okay, NOW it should be good.

6/4/2/2 yields the most results with 19,627,920 different combinations
3/3/3/3/2 yields the least results with 7,776 different combinations
66,713,226 different possible trait combinations with the current system
196,830 different combinations with the new system
99.7049% reduction in trait combination by switching to the new system.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1H9KAc7ghxmrxsq0bkWNALddKMkETmdQ1dW-eS7Xa8Hc/edit?usp=sharing

Yet only 39 viable pvp builds.

runeblade.7514:

MiniEquine.6014:

Okay, NOW it should be good.

6/4/2/2 yields the most results with 19,627,920 different combinations
3/3/3/3/2 yields the least results with 7,776 different combinations
66,713,226 different possible trait combinations with the current system
196,830 different combinations with the new system
99.7049% reduction in trait combination by switching to the new system.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1H9KAc7ghxmrxsq0bkWNALddKMkETmdQ1dW-eS7Xa8Hc/edit?usp=sharing

Yet only 39 viable pvp builds.

I can only posit that this is exactly why they are making changes to the system. And don’t forget, these numbers are for each class, so technically there’s some unfathomably large combination of traits if you expand your choices to every single class (66,713,226^8 or 3.92*10^62). Why have this insane number of combinations, when nearly 100% of them are not even useable, never mind even being close to optimal.

runeblade.7514:

Yet only 39 viable pvp builds.

According to an arbitrary line drawn by who-the-hell-cares.

Who after the changes will still draw the line so there are supposedly only 40ish winning builds without increasing that so-called “diversity” one bit.

MiniEquine.6014:

And don’t forget, these numbers are for each class, so technically there’s some unfathomably large combination of traits if you expand your choices to every single class (66,713,226^8 or 3.92*10^62).

Um… That’s 66,713,226 times 8, not to the power of 8 .

You can’t combine traits across profession lines.

Nike.2631:

MiniEquine.6014:

And don’t forget, these numbers are for each class, so technically there’s some unfathomably large combination of traits if you expand your choices to every single class (66,713,226^8 or 3.92*10^62).

Um… That’s 66,713,226 times 8, not to the power of 8 .

You can’t combine traits across profession lines.

I thought it was exponential. I’ve been second-guessing myself all day, so I could be missing something, but:

For every one build a class has, there are 66,713,226 other builds that a second class can have, an additional 66,713,226 builds that the third class can have, etc.

The first class has 66,713,226 different builds, so it would be 66,713,226^8.

MiniEquine.6014:

For every one build a class has, there are 66,713,226 other builds that a second class can have, an additional 66,713,226 builds that the third class can have, etc.

The first class has 66,713,226 different builds, so it would be 66,713,226^8.

Read that back to yourself. That you used the word “additional” (correctly) points to you knowing it in your gut but having spent a little too long working combinational problems .

If there are 66 million Ranger builds and 66 million Guardian builds there are 132 million ranger and guardian builds. Its additive, not multiplicative.

Nike.2631:

MiniEquine.6014:

For every one build a class has, there are 66,713,226 other builds that a second class can have, an additional 66,713,226 builds that the third class can have, etc.

The first class has 66,713,226 different builds, so it would be 66,713,226^8.

Read that back to yourself. That you used the word “additional” (correctly) points to you knowing it in your gut but having spent a little too long working combinational problems .

If there are 66 million Ranger builds and 66 million Guardian builds there are 132 million ranger and guardian builds. Its additive, not multiplicative.

We must be talking about different aspects of combining. If you add them, you are adding up the total combination of traits when only looking at one class at a time. When you use exponents, you are looking at all combinations of all 8 classes at the same time.

Say you have ranger combo #1, the guardian has 66,713,226 different combinations with ranger combo #1. Ranger combo #2 also has 66,713,226 guardian combinations that work, and so on until Ranger combo #66,713,226. That’s what I was talking about, haha.

Technically we’re both right, but it depends on which number you are trying to report. Since one of each class isn’t very useful, what might be more useful is the total number of variations that a 5-man team can have, assuming 5 different classes.

MiniEquine.6014:

We must be talking about different aspects of combining. If you add them, you are adding up the total combination of traits when only looking at one class at a time. When you use exponents, you are looking at all combinations of all 8 classes at the same time.

Which would be describing the trait permutations of an 8 player party made up of exactly one of each class .

Which would be a number no single player cares about . Adding them describes how many permutations you can personally play as.

Started out as a discussion about the game.

Ended in a statistics lesson

Jerus.4350:

Started out as a discussion about the game.

Ended in a statistics lesson

soon someone will try to explain how probability works, just you wait for it..
internet math ftw!

Let’s see? My current Mesmer build if completely and utterly removed from the game. What is the point of clones if not for a distraction and now when someone mistakenly attacks a clone and destroy’s it they are no longer punished by effects. My ascended armor is even made mute I can no longer spread conditions to the masses by spamming my clones to the field so Mesmer’s can no longer spread the gamut of conditions at the previous speeds.

Then they killed glamours as foes are no longer blinded, confused, or so forth so the other source of mass and random condition dmg is also removed.

So yes HoT is killing build diversity as they want everyone to be a physical Zerker
Wore ascended Rampagers and now there is no point I’m forced into the Zerker meta and I’m not even a Dungeon runner as I don’t care about mindless dungeon runs.

Not sure if they are killing diversity, but they have an interesting preference to find and nuke one by one the things and builds and mehanisms that I love(d) in the game.

MiniEquine.6014:

SEE THE POST BELOW

I know math isn’t subjective. I do now acknowledge that my previous method for calculating the old trait lines was incorrect. After reviewing my work (and sleeping on it a bit :P ) I have reorganized my calculations and found the number of combinations.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1H9KAc7ghxmrxsq0bkWNALddKMkETmdQ1dW-eS7Xa8Hc/edit?usp=sharing

This should be the correct representation of the old values, so long as the revised methods I used still hold water. Sheet 1 will show how I found the different, non-repeating trait combinations for each tier (please feel free to see if this is accurate, but I did double-check this). That means for a filled line there are 233 unique combinations, a master-filled line there are 39 combinations, and for an adept-filled tier there are 6 combinations. For each trait line, the number of trait combinations are multiplied together in addition to the possible trait line combinations. [s] It seems that 5/5/4 yields the most results at over 21,000,000 combinations by itself.

80,399,886 [/s] (Seed Edit 2) 59,638,286 different combinations in total. The only thing this does not consider is swapping lines to get different minor traits for the odd-number-filled lines, but at this point I think it can get a bit excessive to bother factoring that in (especially since it does not add that many more combinations, in the long run).

Let me know what you think, or if you have anything to add.

Edit:
Sheet 1 is the non-repeating combinations sheets
Sheet 2 is the calculations sheet

Edit2: I found an error where I accidentally had 5/5/4 with the adept lines all filled. This was incorrect and has been revised, significantly reducing the number of combinations down to 59 million

Edit3: I can’t get strikethrough to work

Edit4: There are some errors I’m fixing with it, but I have found them.

Nice xD writing them out is indeed always better.
I also see which ones I actually missed with my 188. I missed the case of adept adept grandmaster. Which is another 45. kitten . (6 adept #1 * 5 adept #2 / 2 permutations in a combination of two things) * 4 grandmaster… 188+45 is indeed 233.

All is good now xD

Diversity isn’t quite the right word for describing potential outcomes.

You wouldn’t look at the room full of White guys and say it was a Racially Diverse group of people. Even if the group could have been otherwise – you still don’t call it Diverse until it actually is.

Semantics aside,
I think taking the technical approach here is a bit academic. It downplays the human element, and that feels a bit like talking-around-the-point for something so dependent on user-input as Making Choices. I think it’s good to try and be objective, but be objective about people’s subjective responses – not systemic technicalities that have little real world application.

Less Permutation, More Statistics.

Vox Hollow.2736:

Diversity isn’t quite the right word for describing potential outcomes.

You wouldn’t look at the room full of White guys and say it was a Racially Diverse group of people. Even if the group could have been otherwise – you still don’t call it Diverse until it actually is.

Semantics aside,
I think taking the technical approach here is a bit academic. It downplays the human element, and that feels a bit like talking-around-the-point on something so user-input-dependant as Making Choices. I think it’s good to try and be objective, but be objective about people’s subjective responses – not systemic technicalities that have little real world application.

Less like Permutation, More like Statistics.

Statistics won’t mean much. Most players don’t have optimal builds at all.

Yes this patch will drastically cut diversity. Most people won’t care though because they increased power.

The main focus of the change is simplification, mostly for players. As far as balancing, yeah you have less variables, but now each variable is more important.

phys.7689:

Vox Hollow.2736:

Diversity isn’t quite the right word for describing potential outcomes.

You wouldn’t look at the room full of White guys and say it was a Racially Diverse group of people. Even if the group could have been otherwise – you still don’t call it Diverse until it actually is.

Semantics aside,
I think taking the technical approach here is a bit academic. It downplays the human element, and that feels a bit like talking-around-the-point on something so user-input-dependant as Making Choices. I think it’s good to try and be objective, but be objective about people’s subjective responses – not systemic technicalities that have little real world application.

Less like Permutation, More like Statistics.

Statistics won’t mean much. Most players don’t have optimal builds at all.

Yes this patch will drastically cut diversity. Most people won’t care though because they increased power.

The main focus of the change is simplification, mostly for players. As far as balancing, yeah you have less variables, but now each variable is more important.

So you’re telling me that most people don’t like it when they can play with 196,830 combination?

Sure it went from 66 million to 200 thousands, but 200 thousand combination is still a lot.

Has anyone tried more than 200 thousand different traits?

66,713,226 different possible trait combinations with the current system
196,830 different combinations with the new system

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1H9KAc7ghxmrxsq0bkWNALddKMkETmdQ1dW-eS7Xa8Hc/edit?usp=sharing

The math.

Phys:

Just to be clear:
I don’t really have a horse in this race, I’m basing my satisfaction of the system on multiple factors.

It’s just that reading people examine choices on the technical numbers level feels a bit like watching somebody struggle to dig a well two feet away from a river. It’s mean to question the effort….but hard not to say something.

I think it sucks you can’t partially invest in a line, it’s the whole line or nothing, that will certainly be a big regression in terms of build diversity and the fun of build-crafting.

Arguing the semantics of exactly how many possible combinations are in either system isn’t really the point; obviously no one is literally making hundreds of thousands of characters. It’s more like the face portion of character creation, in that some people just pick a pre-made face and go, and others poke at the sliders to customize every detail. The proposed change is basically removing the customization in exchange for a few new pre-mades. For people who only use those, it’s more variety with no real loss. For people who customize, it’s losing almost everything in exchange for almost nothing.

The case here is similar, in that the new system is very clearly catered to one part of the player base while very indifferently screwing over another. Claims of “we’re actually getting more variety” are not likely to be heard as anything but “I’m the one who benefits from this coin toss and that’s all that matters.”

Vox Hollow.2736:

Phys:

Just to be clear:
I don’t really have a horse in this race, I’m basing my satisfaction of the system on multiple factors.

It’s just that reading people examine choices on the technical numbers level feels a bit like watching somebody struggle to dig a well two feet away from a river. It’s mean to question the effort….but hard not to say something.

yes, looking at the pure possibilities, is a bit pointless, or rather its pointless if you look at it in certain ways.

but it does give you an idea of the difference in variability. If when you looked at the old system, you felt like you didnt have that many different builds you could make that were really different playstyle wise, likelyhood is you will feel that even more with the new system.

And I ve looked at what they have done, and i can objectively say the qualitative variation will definately be a lot lower than before.

the devs plan to make up for this?
basic increase in power
and increase in how much different things each build does.

but the devs knew this going in, the point was to make it less likely to have people roll a bad build, thus seeing more impactof traits on their build, and make it less daunting for newbs.

also, they have less traits to maintain, and design for new specs

Everything they’re doing with traits and specializations is good except for two things.

1. Were going to be forced into choosing 3 trait lines only. Not being able to go halfway into one line and use those extra trait points elsewhere is going to remove a lot of the diversity in making builds and create a cookie cutter set of builds that only a small group of people deviate from.

2. As you might have noticed each trait line for the most part is dedicated to a certain weapon/skill set. Meaning if you’re building around you’re weapon set/utilities, because let’s say you’re better at kiting and hitting from range so you don’t want melee traits, you’re more than likely going to have to choose a set of traits you didn’t want simply because the trait/s that applies to your preferred weapon is locked behind a trait line you didn’t want to use.

Oh well, they won’t listen anyways and just say that this new system is creating MORE build diversity even though it’s actually removing that diversity. Of course this also depends on how much change these traits see between now and then but for the most part every trait line i saw in the AMA video looked like it was forcing you to take a certain weapon or set of utilities if you took that “Specialization”.

As an example, just look at the Strength Spec for Warriors and tell me with the utmost honesty that you would take that spec without the intention of using physical skills OR that you would use the physical skills without taking this spec as one of your 3.

I wonder, how the possible build diversity went down, when they removed 14/14/14/14/14 builds.

Vox Hollow.2736:

Phys:

Just to be clear:
I don’t really have a horse in this race, I’m basing my satisfaction of the system on multiple factors.

It’s just that reading people examine choices on the technical numberslevel feels a bit like watching somebody struggle to dig a well two feet away from a river. It’s mean to question the effort….but hard not to say something.

I did that mainly for fun. Also it gives an insight into how much it has been simplified. The main cause of less amount of combinations is because you can’t pick multiple early traits and because you have a very strict set of traits.

While all the functionality is more or less still possible, the different combinations are smooched out and made one color. Instead of picking light red, dark red, blood red and normal red you just pick red. Which for most people doesn’t matter a great deal as red is red to most. While others want to create their own little details to their build.

From a creative standpoint the new system limits creative combining/building while from a practical standpoint the new system is alot better. So while all or rather, most builds are still possible, alot of the fun of making an unique build with ever so slight differences is not possible anymore which makes them not happy with this system. Other people see new possibilities and are more excited as there’s a few new builds in this system because of updated functionality of some traits and removal of certain types of traits (like the clone condi ones) which gotten a full redo on another functionality.

3 grandmaster trait combinations could also be excited as well.

Rin.1046:

The Primary.6371:

Ironic how anet have made an expansion something to dread rather than expect within a positive manner.

Speak for yourself. I have very positive feelings about these changes.

I type for years of experience playing gw1 and gw2, within both pve and pvp.

If you can type for the same deal, you still will be ignorant.

runeblade.7514:

MiniEquine.6014:

Okay, NOW it should be good.

6/4/2/2 yields the most results with 19,627,920 different combinations
3/3/3/3/2 yields the least results with 7,776 different combinations
66,713,226 different possible trait combinations with the current system
196,830 different combinations with the new system
99.7049% reduction in trait combination by switching to the new system.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1H9KAc7ghxmrxsq0bkWNALddKMkETmdQ1dW-eS7Xa8Hc/edit?usp=sharing

Yet only 39 viable pvp builds.

Can you predict how many of those 39 will not be inferior?

That’s just one question btw.

The Primary.6371:

Rin.1046:

The Primary.6371:

Ironic how anet have made an expansion something to dread rather than expect within a positive manner.

Speak for yourself. I have very positive feelings about these changes.

I type for years of experience playing gw1 and gw2, within both pve and pvp.

If you can type for the same deal, you still will be ignorant.

Erm, what he meant was that he isn’t dreading the changes. This isn’t a matter of how much experience one has, but an opinion. That you’re dreading the changes hasn’t got to do anything with experience, some people welcome changes with open arms, open mind.

In all my years that I played GW1 and GW2, I sort of expect them to change everything they can possibly change. I never dreaded any of the changes either way.

naphack.9346:

I wonder, how the possible build diversity went down, when they removed 14/14/14/14/14 builds.

Please set your straw man in the corner where it will be obvious even to you that it’s being ignored. The same as you’ve ignored the math behind permutations and the entire meaning of the word ‘diversity’.

The only builds that will benefit from this is builds that already max out 2 trait lines. Any personal builds you’ve created will be pigeon holed into this new style of builds.

Enjoy cookie cutter, dumb down gw2. We saw the same thing happen in Cataclysm for wow. The game was too dumb down at that point and they rang their own death knell.

bye bye gw2, it was good while it lasted.