Guild Wars 2

naphack.9346:

I wonder, how the possible build diversity went down, when they removed 14/14/14/14/14 builds.

It didn’t change. Every trait combination you could do in the original system, you can do in current one. The same cannot be said about the incoming change, however.

Morfedel.4165:

So what I hear some people saying is, this is not destroying diversity, except for the diversity for builds that suck?

I for one like experimentation. And what was meta today wasn’t a year ago, and may not be next year. Experimentation sometimes creates new more exciting builds.

So please don’t go around acting like they are just removing builds that “suck.” You never know if someone finds a combination that ends up being excellent.

Except, of course, that entire set of math is changing.

This I am generally always using less common traits and builds and dominating a lot of player that play the meta.

Nike.2631:

If you’re one of those people who understand the word ‘diversity’ has an actual meaning that encompasses all possible permutations that don’t crash the second you leave a city-safe zone then you know that the design space of the game if about to experience an apocalypse that will annihilate 99% of the game’s diversity. And since the reality has ALWAYS BEEN that new top builds emerge over time as people explore those deep and vast wilds of possibility, the future meta-builds of the game are being murdered in their sleep in favor of the blatantly obvious builds left in the wake of this change.

See, he gets it. Bottomline is this trait change was made, in my speculative opinion, purely for balancing reasons. When you have a metric ton less build options its easier to balance around. Balancing = Developer Time = MONEY. Less Balancing = Less Developer Time = Less MONEY Spent on Balancing. Boom.

Morfedel.4165:

I’ve never let publicly viewed metas influence my builds. I play what I want, and screw the meta.

And I’ve generally been just fine.

You’ve been just fine because every single build in this game is viable. Viable = Can complete content. Build Diversity has always been there. Just because it’s not Dungeon/Fractal, WVW, or PVP meta doesn’t automatically make a build not viable it just makes it not meta.

Oh, and just incase y’all forgot what viable means:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/viable

" capable of working, functioning, or developing adequately" = in GW2 that is every single build available. If you think a build is not viable because it is not meta, then you are wrong by viture of the definition of the word viable.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/diversity

“an instance of being composed of differing elements or qualities " = In GW2 that means that there aren’t limits on builds. If you artifically state there’s no diversity because it’s not meta, then you are wrong by viture of the definition of diversity.

FrizzFreston.5290:

The Primary.6371:

Rin.1046:

The Primary.6371:

Ironic how anet have made an expansion something to dread rather than expect within a positive manner.

Speak for yourself. I have very positive feelings about these changes.

I type for years of experience playing gw1 and gw2, within both pve and pvp.

If you can type for the same deal, you still will be ignorant.

Erm, what he meant was that he isn’t dreading the changes. This isn’t a matter of how much experience one has, but an opinion. That you’re dreading the changes hasn’t got to do anything with experience, some people welcome changes with open arms, open mind.

In all my years that I played GW1 and GW2, I sort of expect them to change everything they can possibly change. I never dreaded any of the changes either way.

Then you will love being locked into three trait lines.

By the way, was laughable to see you try to break apart the statements but this “isn’t a matter of how much experience one has, but an opinion” and this “That you’re dreading the changes hasn’t got to do anything with experience”.

Opinions are shaped by experience, which makes it matter.

Assuming that I care for the expansion at all shows off your ignorance and tendency to jump to conclusions (which is adorable). Knowing anets capabilities and faults that they have been demonstrated in the past, showcases a glimpse into possible outcomes. Seeing what they have so far completed or brain stormed, doesn’t yield to a positive atmosphere. You would just need to read the other posts within this forum to understand.

Though that was a different team in gw1 and anet have gone through a change over period in terms of staff. Something to keep in mind which makes you look towards current events during these 2 years. Could go “in depth” but that would be a waste of time.

Change is good for a game but if the actually developers, management and organisation itself choose to continue to go on a path that the majority don’t have confidence in without relaying their thoughts about the future change to the public’s build options and play style, don’t get confused when you think about it (that’s if you would bother to think about it).

Morfedel.4165:

So what I hear some people saying is, this is not destroying diversity, except for the diversity for builds that suck?

I for one like experimentation. And what was meta today wasn’t a year ago, and may not be next year. Experimentation sometimes creates new more exciting builds.

So please don’t go around acting like they are just removing builds that “suck.” You never know if someone finds a combination that ends up being excellent.

Except, of course, that entire set of math is changing.

According to this post,

MiniEquine.6014:

Okay, NOW it should be good.

6/4/2/2 yields the most results with 19,627,920 different combinations
3/3/3/3/2 yields the least results with 7,776 different combinations
66,713,226 different possible trait combinations with the current system
196,830 different combinations with the new system
99.7049% reduction in trait combination by switching to the new system.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1H9KAc7ghxmrxsq0bkWNALddKMkETmdQ1dW-eS7Xa8Hc/edit?usp=sharing

There is about 196 thousand ways to create your trait builds, down from 66 million.

Have you actually tried more than 196 thousand ways to build your character?

Gaaroth.2567:

Here’s the thing.
Is the total number of possible combination dropping? Yes.

Where all the possible combinations viable? No.

Where they easy to balance? kitten no.

What they are doing is giving us more meaningful choices, easier building for us and easier balance for them.

I don’t get why people feeaks out for loosing combinations when everyone was running with the same 10 viable ones. That’s hypocrisy. With the new system the number of viable build will most likely increase!

who says that the HoT combinations will be viable?

I’m trying to make a condi necro…. and you can be condi scepter or condi staff… but not both.

Is that diversity? or just one more example of how much necros suck?

Ezeriel.9574:

I’m trying to make a condi necro…. and you can be condi scepter or condi staff… but not both.

Is that diversity? or just one more example of how much necros suck?

It depends, is either build viable for PvP play?

If not, it is just one more example of how much necros suck. Also, an example of useless diversity.

The Primary.6371:

FrizzFreston.5290:

The Primary.6371:

Rin.1046:

The Primary.6371:

Ironic how anet have made an expansion something to dread rather than expect within a positive manner.

Speak for yourself. I have very positive feelings about these changes.

I type for years of experience playing gw1 and gw2, within both pve and pvp.

If you can type for the same deal, you still will be ignorant.

Erm, what he meant was that he isn’t dreading the changes. This isn’t a matter of how much experience one has, but an opinion. That you’re dreading the changes hasn’t got to do anything with experience, some people welcome changes with open arms, open mind.

In all my years that I played GW1 and GW2, I sort of expect them to change everything they can possibly change. I never dreaded any of the changes either way.

Then you will love being locked into three trait lines.

By the way, was laughable to see you try to break apart the statements but this “isn’t a matter of how much experience one has, but an opinion” and this “That you’re dreading the changes hasn’t got to do anything with experience”.

Opinions are shaped by experience, which makes it matter.

Assuming that I care for the expansion at all shows off your ignorance and tendency to jump to conclusions (which is adorable). Knowing anets capabilities and faults that they have been demonstrated in the past, showcases a glimpse into possible outcomes. Seeing what they have so far completed or brain stormed, doesn’t yield to a positive atmosphere. You would just need to read the other posts within this forum to understand.

Though that was a different team in gw1 and anet have gone through a change over period in terms of staff. Something to keep in mind which makes you look towards current events during these 2 years. Could go “in depth” but that would be a waste of time.

Change is good for a game but if the actually developers, management and organisation itself choose to continue to go on a path that the majority don’t have confidence in without relaying their thoughts about the future change to the public’s build options and play style, don’t get confused when you think about it (that’s if you would bother to think about it).

So you believe that it is a the majority of opinions (which you didn’t even bother to prove) meaning that there are people who have different opinions regarding this issue.

I didn’t assume anything about your relation to the game other than you dreading anything arenanet changes. Ofcourse it would be a non-statement saying you don’t actually care. Since it would mean theres people who don’t care as well as others who do like the changes.

My point was just that not everyone will simply agree because you “have experience”. It is all from your viewpoint at best anyway. Hence that speaking for yourself would be probably a better idea than to randomly draw conclusions based on nothing about what everyone is feeling about these changes.

in the end, the actual diversity is going up on both high level play, which is all that matters on the long run, thanks to more trait fombinations reaching the potential of the current few meta ones. the PHIW crowd also gets a relief thanks to no matter how they choose, they will likely be more effective with content than before.

As for actual, optimal combinations: it’s going to be 3 per trait line, 3 traitlines per build out of 5 possible, thats 2520 different builds per profession. (sans elite specs)

Knighthonor.4061:

Gaaroth.2567:

Here’s the thing.
Is the total number of possible combination dropping? Yes.

Where all the possible combinations viable? No.

Where they easy to balance? kitten no.

What they are doing is giving us more meaningful choices, easier building for us and easier balance for them.

I don’t get why people feeaks out for loosing combinations when everyone was running with the same 10 viable ones. That’s hypocrisy. With the new system the number of viable build will most likely increase!

who says that the HoT combinations will be viable?

Logic?

Really, just look at them, lots of things are getting a lot better, especially lesser used builds.

No longer do you choose between like 30% in damage modifiers and 200+ power vs some utility trait in the 3rd/4th/5th GM spot. You can get your utility and your damage. That alone will make a lot more builds quite a bit more powerful and less looked down upon.

I’m looking forward to working with Fortified Turrets and Experiemental Turrets on my Engi. As well as Healing blast and blasting heals

FrizzFreston.5290:

The Primary.6371:

FrizzFreston.5290:

The Primary.6371:

Rin.1046:

The Primary.6371:

Ironic how anet have made an expansion something to dread rather than expect within a positive manner.

Speak for yourself. I have very positive feelings about these changes.

I type for years of experience playing gw1 and gw2, within both pve and pvp.

If you can type for the same deal, you still will be ignorant.

Erm, what he meant was that he isn’t dreading the changes. This isn’t a matter of how much experience one has, but an opinion. That you’re dreading the changes hasn’t got to do anything with experience, some people welcome changes with open arms, open mind.

In all my years that I played GW1 and GW2, I sort of expect them to change everything they can possibly change. I never dreaded any of the changes either way.

Then you will love being locked into three trait lines.

By the way, was laughable to see you try to break apart the statements but this “isn’t a matter of how much experience one has, but an opinion” and this “That you’re dreading the changes hasn’t got to do anything with experience”.

Opinions are shaped by experience, which makes it matter.

Assuming that I care for the expansion at all shows off your ignorance and tendency to jump to conclusions (which is adorable). Knowing anets capabilities and faults that they have been demonstrated in the past, showcases a glimpse into possible outcomes. Seeing what they have so far completed or brain stormed, doesn’t yield to a positive atmosphere. You would just need to read the other posts within this forum to understand.

Though that was a different team in gw1 and anet have gone through a change over period in terms of staff. Something to keep in mind which makes you look towards current events during these 2 years. Could go “in depth” but that would be a waste of time.

Change is good for a game but if the actually developers, management and organisation itself choose to continue to go on a path that the majority don’t have confidence in without relaying their thoughts about the future change to the public’s build options and play style, don’t get confused when you think about it (that’s if you would bother to think about it).

So you believe that it is a the majority of opinions (which you didn’t even bother to prove) meaning that there are people who have different opinions regarding this issue.

I didn’t assume anything about your relation to the game other than you dreading anything arenanet changes. Ofcourse it would be a non-statement saying you don’t actually care. Since it would mean theres people who don’t care as well as others who do like the changes.

My point was just that not everyone will simply agree because you “have experience”. It is all from your viewpoint at best anyway. Hence that speaking for yourself would be probably a better idea than to randomly draw conclusions based on nothing about what everyone is feeling about these changes.

Who typed that it was my point of view?
Why would I type a non statement if I don’t care since it’s not from my point of view?
Why are the majority of your statements designed to shoot down statements manufactured to illuminate your hypocritical nature?
Why are you also constantly becoming confused and therefore making the wrong assumptions?
And when will the next “wall of text” appear that provides the same flavour as the previous?

Boro.7359:

in the end, the actual diversity is going up on both high level play, which is all that matters on the long run, thanks to more trait fombinations reaching the potential of the current few meta ones. the PHIW crowd also gets a relief thanks to no matter how they choose, they will likely be more effective with content than before.

As for actual, optimal combinations: it’s going to be 3 per trait line, 3 traitlines per build out of 5 possible, thats 2520 different builds per profession. (sans elite specs)

How is high level play “all that matters”? Should they orient balance around the fraction of a percent that makes up the top professional PvPers?

Even if we’re ending up with more meta-grade builds, and honestly I don’t even believe that much, there is a huge gap between that and more diversity. The “high level players” are just going to zero in on the top couple builds anyway, regardless of whether that’s the best out of ten or the best out of ten thousand.

“the PHIW crowd also gets a relief thanks to no matter how they choose, they will likely be more effective with content than before.” The fact that their choices don’t matter anymore is kind of the point of a lot of those complaints.

The Primary.6371:

Who typed that it was my point of view?
Why would I type a non statement if I don’t care since it’s not from my point of view?
Why are the majority of your statements designed to shoot down statements manufactured to illuminate your hypocritical nature?
Why are you also constantly becoming confused and therefore making the wrong assumptions?
And when will the next “wall of text” appear that provides the same flavour as the previous?

You tell me. Clearly you have me at an advantage with all your experience.

FrizzFreston.5290:

The Primary.6371:

Who typed that it was my point of view?
Why would I type a non statement if I don’t care since it’s not from my point of view?
Why are the majority of your statements designed to shoot down statements manufactured to illuminate your hypocritical nature?
Why are you also constantly becoming confused and therefore making the wrong assumptions?
And when will the next “wall of text” appear that provides the same flavour as the previous?

You tell me. Clearly you have me at an advantage with all your experience.

Looking purely at figures yes, the options have been reduced but your ignoring the simple fact that the reason options have been eliminated is by condensing similar traits into combination traits that support each other. In order to properly maximise builds traits with similar functions or targets where always chosen.. for example you select meditation skills and traits which reduce cooldown and add benefits. Currently that would require two trait choices where as now you only need one.

Sure we’ve lost a trait or two, but we now have a simpler choice which helps clarify the build your aiming for. Working with meditations? Boom single trait to boost their use. They did the same thing in WoW in either cata or pandaland i cant remember.

In essence your not losing any skills or traits and the only build diversity your losing are builds that are random and not synergised which tbh you should be thankful for because it means it will be less likely you’ll have someone in your team with a stupid useless build.

Kindeller.3072:

Looking purely at figures yes, the options have been reduced but your ignoring the simple fact that the reason options have been eliminated is by condensing similar traits into combination traits that support each other. In order to properly maximise builds traits with similar functions or targets where always chosen.. for example you select meditation skills and traits which reduce cooldown and add benefits. Currently that would require two trait choices where as now you only need one.

Sure we’ve lost a trait or two, but we now have a simpler choice which helps clarify the build your aiming for. Working with meditations? Boom single trait to boost their use. They did the same thing in WoW in either cata or pandaland i cant remember.

In essence your not losing any skills or traits and the only build diversity your losing are builds that are random and not synergised which tbh you should be thankful for because it means it will be less likely you’ll have someone in your team with a stupid useless build.

kinda true, but not true.
some things arent incredibly synergistic, but are incredibly good to have.
like lets say being able to create swiftness and vigor at will.

then there are also things that are synergistic, but cross lines.

so yeah you lose many beneficial builds.

I’m losing a huge amount of “synergized” builds as well. In many cases this seems to be a deliberate intent of the new system, or at the very least a side-effect of having so little flexibility/trait options that some are inevitably shoved into the same tier. Forcing a condition mesmer to choose confusion OR torment, for example, many traits they were able to take at once before.

“In essence we’re not losing traits or diversity,” you say immediately after acknowledging the loss of traits and diversity. Honestly, even whether you’re looking “purely at figures”, it seems obvious to me that the number of good/meta/obvious builds that people keep claiming are the only ones that matter are also shrinking. You can move into a shed after your house burns down, but just because the shed has most of the belongings you could save condensed in one place it doesn’t mean you actually have more, regardless of the illusion that you do.

Individual player skill accounts for a lot more than how meta their build is. Once everyone on the team is exactly the same it won’t save you from people who don’t know how to dodge.

mtpelion.4562:

Right now, “build diversity” means “select the damage increasing traits so that you are using the exact same build as everyone else”.

Due to the way they are changing traits, it seems like there will be a LOT more build options now since we aren’t going to be shoehorned into taking the same selection as everyone else in order to get max DPS out of it.

LOL yep I was waiting for a supporter of the Zerker movement to try to make this argument. It’s the same argument that’s been made in every major MMO out there when they realized they messed up the build diversity and role system in those games and their sweeping changes made it possible for people to run dungeons properly.

It’s even happened in games like NWO in which people were all DPS only and you can’t survive on DPS alone so they look for players with more diverse builds in groups.

What’s ironic is a game that has Trinity Lite has more current diversity options and roles in PVE and PVP than GW2, HoT is moving in the right direction trust me.

Tachenon.5270:

runeblade.7514:

HoT is destroying useless diversity so that there can be balance.

- Presenting the Banana Split Analogy -

Once upon a time one could have a banana split with a useless but glorious diversity of items like nuts and cherries and pineapple chunks and whipped topping and chocolate or caramel sauce, and of course a banana and some ice cream. Alas! Some felt this was unbalanced, and so…

Changes were wrought! And now the banana split consists of a banana and maybe, if you’re lucky, some ice cream. But it will be better, you see, because it’s balanced.

Or not.

People keep saying it will be balanced. People don’t know it will be balanced, any more than the people saying it will be awful know it will be awful, but least the people saying it will be awful have a year’s three year’s worth of awful precedent upon which to base their opinions.

FTFY

But yeah…

• We don’t know if it will be better
• We don’t know if it will be worse
• All we know it’s bad now, so it could get better… or go down more.

In terms of build diversity, I don’t care for having some insane number of available build options but only using maybe a handful of genuinely useful builds. I would rather have a smaller number of manageable and more useful builds. If HoT were to reduce the amount of possible builds down by a factor of 10 or so, then I would expect the each of the remaining build possibilities to be incredibly useful. In short, I want quality, not quantity.

DanteZero.9736:

In terms of build diversity, I don’t care for having some insane number of available build options but only using maybe a handful of genuinely useful builds. I would rather have a smaller number of manageable and more useful builds. If HoT were to reduce the amount of possible builds down by a factor of 10 or so, then I would expect the each of the remaining build possibilities to be incredibly useful. In short, I want quality, not quantity.

not clear here, are you saying you would rather have 10 good builds out of 20 than 20 good builds out of 100?

phys.7689:

DanteZero.9736:

In terms of build diversity, I don’t care for having some insane number of available build options but only using maybe a handful of genuinely useful builds. I would rather have a smaller number of manageable and more useful builds. If HoT were to reduce the amount of possible builds down by a factor of 10 or so, then I would expect the each of the remaining build possibilities to be incredibly useful. In short, I want quality, not quantity.

not clear here, are you saying you would rather have 10 good builds out of 20 than 20 good builds out of 100?

I’m pretty sure, he means he’d rather have 10 good builds out of 20 than 5 out of 100.

Diovid.9506:

phys.7689:

DanteZero.9736:

In terms of build diversity, I don’t care for having some insane number of available build options but only using maybe a handful of genuinely useful builds. I would rather have a smaller number of manageable and more useful builds. If HoT were to reduce the amount of possible builds down by a factor of 10 or so, then I would expect the each of the remaining build possibilities to be incredibly useful. In short, I want quality, not quantity.

not clear here, are you saying you would rather have 10 good builds out of 20 than 20 good builds out of 100?

I’m pretty sure, he means he’d rather have 10 good builds out of 20 than 5 out of 100.

well he said he would rather have a smaller number of manageable builds, which suggests he is concerned with having to find the actual good ones. but i could see him meaning what you say, which is why i asked him.

Its a different and valid opinion than we have heard for someone to say they dont want a ton of builds to have to figure out, though i personally disagree.

regardless there is nothing about the mechanics of specialization that would increase build diversity, other than the separation of stats/traits.
but one does not require the other.

Diovid.9506:

phys.7689:

DanteZero.9736:

In terms of build diversity, I don’t care for having some insane number of available build options but only using maybe a handful of genuinely useful builds. I would rather have a smaller number of manageable and more useful builds. If HoT were to reduce the amount of possible builds down by a factor of 10 or so, then I would expect the each of the remaining build possibilities to be incredibly useful. In short, I want quality, not quantity.

not clear here, are you saying you would rather have 10 good builds out of 20 than 20 good builds out of 100?

I’m pretty sure, he means he’d rather have 10 good builds out of 20 than 5 out of 100.

More like 3 good builds out of 20 instead of 3 good builds out of 1000. What HOT really kills is the small variations/personalisation of builds, and I really don’t think it’s a net improvement.

Making traits more impactful is good but limiting choice to 3 lines only is bad.

It’s definitely a step away from GW1 which would let people play around with their skillsset alot more.

Its really makes the system more streamlined and less about the little differences which sometimes didn’t matter that much. It will become alot easier to switch traits and combine them.

At least they tried to incorporate the current builds by trying to fit in as many buildstyles as they could. While taking out some specific styles while putting in others.
I think that on a personal level, these changes can either be good or bad. But the majority of players will have an easier time to change and make builds which might make it more fun to play with.
I think accessibility and build quality go a long way for the games health, even though we might lose a few options to explore and experiment with. If this makes people play around more with and pick different builds then that would be a good thing.

Of course that all remains to be seen.

FrizzFreston.5290:

If this makes people play around more with and pick different builds then that would be a good thing.

It seems to be aimed at doing exactly opposite – limit classes to only 2-3 sensible builds. In quite a number of cases the trait balance is still so bad that picking one option over the others is a no-brainer. Others have a must-take traitlines. There’s also a much bigger interdependence of traits, skills (not only utilities, but now also heal and elite) and weapons.
Most people will not end up playing with builds even if they did so in the current system – they will be locked into one build, or two-three alternates they will use depending on the situation and/or gamemode.
It may be even worse when we consider the potential impact of elite specs.

Astralporing.1957:

FrizzFreston.5290:

If this makes people play around more with and pick different builds then that would be a good thing.

It seems to be aimed at doing exactly opposite – limit classes to only 2-3 sensible builds. In quite a number of cases the trait balance is still so bad that picking one option over the others is a no-brainer. Others have a must-take traitlines. There’s also a much bigger interdependence of traits, skills (not only utilities, but now also heal and elite) and weapons.
Most people will not end up playing with builds even if they did so in the current system – they will be locked into one build, or two-three alternates they will use depending on the situation and/or gamemode.
It may be even worse when we consider the potential impact of elite specs.

Why would it be aimed to do the exact opposite? That is just not true, but I will agree that Arenanet misses from occasion to occasion. (Hence I said if)

I do agree there’s quite a few traits that you simply pick because they enhance a specific set of skills. But you don’t have stats on traitlines anymore and you will have several traits left to pick after you picked those.

But yeah, I mostly meant that from a pure systemetical aspect a more accessable system would lead to more playing around with it. There’s not the huge amount of choices to make anymore. That said, I rather would have seen a total rework on the traits so that every choice is indeed meaningful. Not all of the current traits are worth taking still indeed as you saif and I can only hope they adjust the lesser options so that the choice is more balanced.
So far we have seen the preliminary traits but I thought they said that they aren’t done balancing them yet.

But yeah I do agree about the balance they currently put forward.

I just want to know if I will be able to do a decent FT build like the one I have now (Hybrid damage, slightly tanky, great evasion, mobility and cc), or if I will be forced to abandon my pyromaniac.

In other words: will the suboptimal choices be improved to be more on the same level as the “top” ones, or will they be completely trashed so ANet don’t have to worry about them anymore?

I’m going to say no since this change is mostly attatched to the new Specialization paths.

We only have the first set of Specializations and with more to arrive later we can expect new diversity in builds as they add the other set of Specializations since eventually all Professions will have the ability to use all weapons.

Ardid.7203:

I just want to know if I will be able to do a decent FT build like the one I have now (Hybrid damage, slightly tanky, great evasion, mobility and cc), or if I will be forced to abandon my pyromaniac.

In other words: will the suboptimal choices be improved to be more on the same level as the “top” ones, or will they be completely trashed so ANet don’t have to worry about them anymore?

Rabid or Celestial gear (for hybrid of stats w/tankiness) Then, 06066 build. FT, Nade, Bomb/Toolkit?

Firearms: Precise Sights trait w/switness addition, Condi conversion trait, and any of the GMs would be decent, I’d probably go with Incendiary most of the time, and swap in Jugg when stab needed.

Alchemy: Invigorating speed, Backpack Regen, and whatever the TBD ends up most likely.

Tools: Power Wrench, Speedy Kits, and undecided on GM.

That’d give you your condi’s while still having power damage, and you’d have perma vigor as well as some passive regen with backpack regen for tankiness/evades. And then Speedy kit for mobility.

CC, you’d have rifle/FT/magnet and now with kit refinement you could even potentially work in some of those things.

Point being… looks like you could still make something

Sunds legit, but without might stacking (actual juggernaut+runes) I doubt it would be able to do even half of the already weak damage done today. It’ll also lose the second condition (bleed) used to lower the impact of condi cleanses.

I think most engies will just take the new mortar and explosives.

I supose Ill will just have to accept to be even less effective than now. Meh.

Ardid.7203:

Sunds legit, but without might stacking (actual juggernaut+runes) I doubt it would be able to do even half of the already weak damage done today. It’ll also lose the second condition (bleed) used to lower the impact of condi cleanses.

I think most engies will just take the new mortar and explosives.

I supose Ill will just have to accept to be even less effective than now. Meh.

And do you gain nothing with the new build? What was your old build exactly? You very much can still might stack, toss napalm down, flameblast,Magnetic inversion, and maybe supply crate or healing turret for extra blasts. You can get 2 flameblasts in a single napalm, so just between it and shield you can keep 9 stacks the majority of the time while also doing good damage witht he combo.

I don’t know, I’m sure you’ll figure something out. Sitting there and being defeatist isn’t going to find you a new variation to make a build you really want.

Could take Toolkit off of what I said and go with Bombs instead, giving more frequent fire fields. With it drop Alchemy, losing potential dodges but you could go inventions grabbing extra blasts and heals. Drop tools for explosions and grab even more blasts. And end up with a very very much mroe offensive version of what I said earlier.

Explosions = Bomb/Nade/Mortar stuffs
Firearms = Crit stuff
Inventions = support tools
Alchemy = personal defense tools
Tools = hodgepodge of tools.

Between the 5 of them there’s quite a few options I see. You may have lost specific options but there are new options that can fill in.

http://dulfy.net/2015/05/02/gw2-specialization-calculator-that_shaman/

bets way to check it meta battle:
take ucrrent number of build of meta battle compare them one month down the line after HoT release.

if the number is in a 10 ranger to one another then new variations only caome up or disappeared.
only if you have a huge difference oyu can claim diversity is gone.
but i doubt that.

not to mention that the word diversity…….UUGHH its soundsl like a SJW discussion if you replace builds with PoCs XD

It is not a question of diversity, but rather a problem of complexity of character development. Now core specializations looks like a talents from MOBA games. Unfortunately, the tendency to oversimplify the system of character development has become usual for modern MMOrpgs.
P.s. sorry for my english

Vorch.1807:

It is not a question of diversity, but rather a problem of complexity of character development. Now core specializations looks like a talents from MOBA games. Unfortunately, the tendency to oversimplify the system of character development has become usual for modern MMOrpgs.
P.s. sorry for my english

Oversimplified trait system will help gw2 a bit. There will be a lot less “omg why you are doing this to yourself T_T” builds. And a lot less “i want to be useless” anti-meta builds too.

TheFantasticGman.9451:

You’ve been just fine because every single build in this game is viable. Viable = Can complete content. Build Diversity has always been there. Just because it’s not Dungeon/Fractal, WVW, or PVP meta doesn’t automatically make a build not viable it just makes it not meta.

Oh, and just incase y’all forgot what viable means:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/viable

" capable of working, functioning, or developing adequately" = in GW2 that is every single build available. If you think a build is not viable because it is not meta, then you are wrong by viture of the definition of the word viable.

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/diversity

“an instance of being composed of differing elements or qualities " = In GW2 that means that there aren’t limits on builds. If you artifically state there’s no diversity because it’s not meta, then you are wrong by viture of the definition of diversity.

You’re wrong to claim every single build is viable by that metric. There are tons of builds, by that metric, that are not viable, in that they are inadequate and perform poorly, and struggle to the point where normal, decent players can’t complete content reliably if everyone (or even most people) in the party have builds along those lines.

So you’re hoist by your own petard there, I’m afraid.

As for the ranting about “TIME = MONEY”, well, that’s a gross oversimplification. Balance isn’t about money. You can’t throw money at it and hope to get balance. You can’t just add more members to the team and/or make them work longer hours and hope to get balance, so actually, not, looking for balance isn’t about “MONEY!!!” as you suggest.

It’s about balance actually being possible, about more builds being genuinely viable, as opposed to merely technically viable.

With other games where we’ve seen them vastly cut down on “build diversity” in order to improve balance and accessibility, it’s typically been a resounding success. WoW is a good example – they ditched the old, wildly complicated and fiddly talent system for an ultra-simplified one, and guess what? Their game got both easier to play for non-experts and vastly more balanced for everyone.

Anyway, you’ve scored a double-fault with your reasoning. Balance isn’t about “money”, and not “every” build in GW2 reached the level of adequacy.

Today, 9 might stacks is what I get by standing idle in FT. With blasts and combos and work I can go up to 16 most of the time. Even so, my damage on FT never get even close to the most simple of grenadier meta. The problem is I don’t like nades or bombs. I like FT.

If the change proposed can make both extremes closer, then I’ll support it, totally. More builds being valid choices only could be good. The point is, is this what is going to happen?

Will the traits change offer more “justice” for less standard playstyles? or will it only standarize a few meta while burying the subpar playstyles forever? That’s the point, IMO, and the reason I’m somewhat gloomy.

I supose we just have to wait. As Jerus kindly point, i’m not helping anyone by being defeatist, even if I feel deeply inside that this is going down the toilet. I TRULY HOPE I’M WRONG.

In my opinion, the goal of any character development system is to give the opportunity to play a role(or few) and the opportunity to create a unique character. The core spec. sys. increases the chances to create a copy of another player. Of course build/trait balance a very important aspect of the game. It should be cause for changing the existing traits/skills and their improvement, and not a cause to reduce the complexity of the system to the level of action games.

Fall Damage traits should have an additional, broader functionality. Because they are roaming/ exploration traits, Anet could give them something like +X movement speed, super speed procs, cripple/ immobilize/ chill cleansing procs, etc.

When Anet decided to fuse guardian’s downed health trait with another one that cleansed conditions, they said it was the kind of effect that no one would want to spec for specifically, but that it would be interesting to ahve when combined with another trait.

The same logic should apply to fall damage traits, even if they’re already situationally picked, and perhaps even to revive traits.

My worry is that the game is take a page out of the wrong books. Several other MMO’s have ‘streamlined’ the character build options in similar ways. I found this to be an overall disappointment in other titles.

Does anyone else enjoy the Boots Bad Builds videos on youtube? It’s some fun viewing of a couple fairly known GW2 youtube personalities fiddling around with wacky builds that are far from meta, but fun for their own interesting reasons.

It would be a shame to lose this lighthearted side of character building in exchange for a system that allows for effectiveness at the cost of imagination or whatever.

DiogoSilva.7089:

Fall Damage traits should have an additional, broader functionality. Because they are roaming/ exploration traits, Anet could give them something like +X movement speed, super speed procs, cripple/ immobilize/ chill cleansing procs, etc.

When Anet decided to fuse guardian’s downed health trait with another one that cleansed conditions, they said it was the kind of effect that no one would want to spec for specifically, but that it would be interesting to ahve when combined with another trait.

The same logic should apply to fall damage traits, even if they’re already situationally picked, and perhaps even to revive traits.

The way i see it, I love having traits that are situational. It’s neat to be able to build for a really specific function, and this is about the only MMO that lets you do that. Streamlining skills so that they are more effective doesn’t necessarily make for a better player experience.

I find that spec’ing as an roaming/exploring build in a game that so incentivizes exploration, is pretty awesome.

Eurhetemec.9052:

You’re wrong to claim every single build is viable by that metric. There are tons of builds, by that metric, that are not viable, in that they are inadequate and perform poorly, and struggle to the point where normal, decent players can’t complete content reliably if everyone (or even most people) in the party have builds along those lines.

With other games where we’ve seen them vastly cut down on “build diversity” in order to improve balance and accessibility, it’s typically been a resounding success. WoW is a good example – they ditched the old, wildly complicated and fiddly talent system for an ultra-simplified one, and guess what? Their game got both easier to play for non-experts and vastly more balanced for everyone.

Anyway, you’ve scored a double-fault with your reasoning. Balance isn’t about “money”, and not “every” build in GW2 reached the level of adequacy.

Viable is an iffy word to apply in general, as I would argue player skill is more important on either end. Players who can’t figure out how to dodge out of orange circles are going to get wrecked by both monsters and other players, regardless of build. I’ve seen people say they completed PvE content with any traits at all because they never bothered looking into the system, which is far less “viable” than even picking at random. Yet they got by just fine, apparently.

There is in no distinct border between meta and random nonsense builds. There are many, MANY builds that are made with thought and synergize and function just fine, but are not meta. The top 1% may be the “best” builds, but are they really that significantly different from the top 90-99%? What about 80-90%, who will still perform as well as or better if the players are better? How far down does it go until a build is “inadequate”?

Yes, I’m sure WoW got more balanced and easier to play. No one is really arguing that side of it? I bet GW2 would get even MORE easy to play and even MORE balanced if you removed character builds entirely and gave every profession identical stats and skills. Yet I don’t think many people would call this an improvement, even if it is a “resounding success” for the intention of increasing balance and simplicity.

Adequacy simply means “good enough to get the job done.” So yes, very nearly every build, even deliberately random ones, would be adequate. In PvP yesterday I joined a match with a ranger whose build was something like 0/0/6/0/6. I forget the exact placement but the last 2 weren’t even allocated. One of his two adept trait slots was completely empty. Yet at the time I joined he had the highest score on his team and appeared the most effective in combat.

Unfortunately, I do believe it’s about money, but not because balance = money. Because simplicity is money. It’s the same reason that game in general have fewer options and complications than earlier installments in the series, because they want to appeal to the broader market that isn’t as willing to put in the time or effort. It’s the same reason the NPE patch came into existence, an update that seemed to confuse and annoy much of the player base with changes nobody was asking for, but instead was clearly meant to make things “simpler” for new players. This specialization system is no different; it’s not about whether the gain is better than the loss, but about one group of players being shot in the back to make room for a group with more money to give.

To the OP´s question, a loud YES!

Another example from a “stupid fun” builder.
My current Rifle/Hammer Warrior will be dead as I am using 2 points off the path for Warrior´s Sprint and the rest for the actual build.

As WS will share a tier with Rifle, I will have to ditch my Rifle and go Long Bow like everybody else. Welcome to the new build diversity.

My suspicion is that the Devs are still suffering from Guild Wars 1 balancing PTSD, or rather the massive failure at it. The current system is still too flexible and diverse to them so they have to cut it down (aka. “slimline” ) even more.

Not the least because more Elites are probably in the pipeline and they have to be balanced too.

HawkMeister.4758:

To the OP´s question, a loud YES!

Another example from a “stupid fun” builder.
My current Rifle/Hammer Warrior will be dead as I am using 2 points off the path for Warrior´s Sprint and the rest for the actual build.

As WS will share a tier with Rifle, I will have to ditch my Rifle and go Long Bow like everybody else. Welcome to the new build diversity.

My suspicion is that the Devs are still suffering from Guild Wars 1 balancing PTSD, or rather the massive failure at it. The current system is still too flexible and diverse to them so they have to cut it down (aka. “slimline” ) even more.

Not the least because more Elites are probably in the pipeline and they have to be balanced too.

its not really about balance, its about simplifying the system so its easier for people to stumble on ok builds.

balance is not necesarrily easier by having less options,

Here are some builds with links to the new build lines. These builds are builds i’m looking at and will try when the new tree lines are out and ready to be used. You can take a look, comment on them, improve them. These are just a few I’ve made, i’m going to be making more. For some people changing their builds with the new system will take time, because they liked the builds they had, and they don’t want it to change. I see options with this system though. Different armor sets being used in the future.

I just make this one. It feels very… incoherent. It has things I never think to use, lots of choices I would have rather avoided, “themes” I have no interest in…

No doubt it could work, but I really think FT+Static Discharge+Kit Refinement is sort of a Frankenstein monster. It looks fun, just not “streamlined” at all.

http://dulfy.net/2015/05/02/gw2-specialization-calculator-that_shaman/#profession=engineer&traits=%22Tools%22,1,4,8-%22Firearms%22,3,4,9-%22Alchemy%22,3,4,7

Ardid.7203:

I just make this one. It feels very… incoherent. It has things I never think to use, lots of choices I would have rather avoided, “themes” I have no interest in…

No doubt it could work, but I really think FT+Static Discharge+Kit Refinement is sort of a Frankenstein monster. It looks fun, just not “streamlined” at all.

http://dulfy.net/2015/05/02/gw2-specialization-calculator-that_shaman/#profession=engineer&traits=%22Tools%22,1,4,8-%22Firearms%22,3,4,9-%22Alchemy%22,3,4,7

yeah, i doesnt seem to come together well, also i see you opted for the to be determined skill there, lol

Just doing a quick check- where did Eagle Eye go for Rangers? No more range increase for rangers?

I might have to do a complete check and see if any of my builds have survived at all under this new system of restricted choices and limited trait lines.