Is it time to nerf difficulty of metas?

Is it time to nerf difficulty of metas?

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Posted by: maddoctor.2738

maddoctor.2738

fixing forum bugs

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Posted by: Fancypants.9705

Fancypants.9705

OP – do you actually play this game.. or log in once a week, fail a meta, and consider it not doable? Playing during NA, i beat the TD, AA, and DS metas randomly for a week straight. Didn’t fail any of those 1 time. All in all I believe AA was beaten 7 times, TD 4 times, DS 3 times. I wasn’t even trying to complete these I just happened to log on and find people forming in LFG….

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Posted by: Vayne.8563

Vayne.8563

OP – do you actually play this game.. or log in once a week, fail a meta, and consider it not doable? Playing during NA, i beat the TD, AA, and DS metas randomly for a week straight. Didn’t fail any of those 1 time. All in all I believe AA was beaten 7 times, TD 4 times, DS 3 times. I wasn’t even trying to complete these I just happened to log on and find people forming in LFG….

I agree with you. Part of the problem is some people don’t really know to use LFG. It’s not organic. It’s not something they grew up with soloing. If you solo, why look at LFG? It’s a mindset thing.

But you can use LFG to taxi to a map doing the meta, and then leave the group and still complete metas.

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Posted by: Eponet.4829

Eponet.4829

Metas don’t always have to succeed. The fact that people think they do is a problem. Every event ideally should have at least a small chance to fail. In core Tyria that doesn’t happen so people get to end game stuff and think it should always succeed. Even on full maps you can lose something like Tarir by one side killing the octovine instead of waiting. A full map of TD can fail by Nuhoch Lane not stomping mushrooms fast enough. A DS full map can fail if one side can’t keep the blighting pods down.

There are enough people to do every meta. More people have to learn to organize those people. I’ve done it a few times, so I know it can be done. I’ve done it on maps where people have said there aren’t enough people to do the meta.

It often starts with a post to LFG.

And Verdant Brink Night fails whenever you don’t bring a small army of people to it, because the map never reaches the same numbers as the other HOT maps.

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Posted by: AliamRationem.5172

AliamRationem.5172

And Verdant Brink Night fails whenever you don’t bring a small army of people to it, because the map never reaches the same numbers as the other HOT maps.

VB is definitely the toughest meta to complete, but it isn’t because the map never has the numbers. How could you possibly know that? As far as I know, there is no means by which players may determine how many other players are present on a map. The best indicator we have is when a map is full, but the only method we have of observing that is via LFG – and we still don’t know what that number is.

The problem with the VB meta is that it doesn’t start when the bosses spawn and killing the bosses does not guarantee a T4 win. The meta is the entire night cycle. So here’s the problem with that…

This morning I logged in to VB to grab the shard of Caladbolg for the latest current event. It so happened that I logged in right as the night cycle started and a few players were asking in map chat if this was a meta map. I responded that LFG had no meta map in progress, but if they wanted to we could begin to organize one.

So I threw up my mentor tag (I don’t have commander) and explained that I’d need 2 or 3 others at my location to maintain the camp and that others should spread out and claim camps, tag up, and move on if more than 4 or 5 players were already present at a camp.

A few others followed my lead, but throughout the cycle players kept popping into map chat to complain that the map was dead. The map is dead! Nobody is doing the meta!

How could they know that? In this case, there were several groups actively participating in the meta. And when the boss cycle came it turned out there were quite a lot of players present on the map. In fact, we completed all of the bosses with several minutes to spare. Unfortunately, because players were convinced they were on a dead map, they didn’t do enough prior to the bosses to get a T4 win.

Obviously, part of that is players not understanding how the VB meta works. And part of that is the VB meta itself. I think in this case I could agree that it would be a lot easier to win VB if killing the 5 bosses were all that was required to score a T4 win. Players are much too quick to look for others to do all the work and will not participate otherwise. Megaserver and the LFG mini-game aren’t helping the situation here, even if it works adequately (for those who know) on all of the other HoT maps.

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Posted by: Vayne.8563

Vayne.8563

And Verdant Brink Night fails whenever you don’t bring a small army of people to it, because the map never reaches the same numbers as the other HOT maps.

VB is definitely the toughest meta to complete, but it isn’t because the map never has the numbers. How could you possibly know that? As far as I know, there is no means by which players may determine how many other players are present on a map. The best indicator we have is when a map is full, but the only method we have of observing that is via LFG – and we still don’t know what that number is.

The problem with the VB meta is that it doesn’t start when the bosses spawn and killing the bosses does not guarantee a T4 win. The meta is the entire night cycle. So here’s the problem with that…

This morning I logged in to VB to grab the shard of Caladbolg for the latest current event. It so happened that I logged in right as the night cycle started and a few players were asking in map chat if this was a meta map. I responded that LFG had no meta map in progress, but if they wanted to we could begin to organize one.

So I threw up my mentor tag (I don’t have commander) and explained that I’d need 2 or 3 others at my location to maintain the camp and that others should spread out and claim camps, tag up, and move on if more than 4 or 5 players were already present at a camp.

A few others followed my lead, but throughout the cycle players kept popping into map chat to complain that the map was dead. The map is dead! Nobody is doing the meta!

How could they know that? In this case, there were several groups actively participating in the meta. And when the boss cycle came it turned out there were quite a lot of players present on the map. In fact, we completed all of the bosses with several minutes to spare. Unfortunately, because players were convinced they were on a dead map, they didn’t do enough prior to the bosses to get a T4 win.

Obviously, part of that is players not understanding how the VB meta works. And part of that is the VB meta itself. I think in this case I could agree that it would be a lot easier to win VB if killing the 5 bosses were all that was required to score a T4 win. Players are much too quick to look for others to do all the work and will not participate otherwise. Megaserver and the LFG mini-game aren’t helping the situation here, even if it works adequately (for those who know) on all of the other HoT maps.

This is exactly the problem. You don’t need a million people for T4 meta. You need a bunch of people who understand how the meta gets done. You can’t zerg this meta. Zerging it is guaranteed failure.

So those that don’t understand pop into the map and leave. Or wait for the night bosses and do nothing before it.

The problem, in part, is the game does a kitten poor job of explaining what needs to be done.

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Posted by: zealex.9410

zealex.9410

did vb tier 4 like yday and it was with ppl that prob did it for their first time all you need to do and find a map early after the previous meta and lfg that one as a map that is going for t4 ppl will come.

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Posted by: Healix.5819

Healix.5819

And Verdant Brink Night fails whenever you don’t bring a small army of people to it, because the map never reaches the same numbers as the other HOT maps.

The metas truly only need around 20 people to complete or 3 per boss, but that also means you can’t faceroll it, which is why people do the whole LFG zerg. To make VB easy, encourage everyone to turn on their mentor tag, then cover each camp with 1 person, telling them to leave 1 enemy remaining during the camp defenses, which should allow them to easily solo the camps. Have someone call out 3 and 1 minute before the camp defenses start, as people should be doing the champs/escorts in between. For the bosses, simply spread out between them, using the mentor tags to estimate where others are.

Every map likely has enough people to legitimately complete T4, especially if people didn’t taxi.

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Posted by: Katastroff.1045

Katastroff.1045

Population is down or spread out. Still new players coming in. Metas were completely doable and achieved a healthy life cycle, but that was 2 years ago. Metas can still be done, but not as reliably as before even during NA prime time. Seen more and more metas fail that past few months and I’m showing up (when I do) the same time as I did a year or so ago. I think they had a good run, but if they are going to be reliably doable, I think they need the SW QoL adjustment.

I happened to drop by DS last night and this morning, both times there was an organized group. We even kill the ugly MF in less then 20 mins last night.

I go to Verdant Brink on a regular basis, just to waite my stack of crowbars and i see organized groups all the time, and it often scales up to T4.

Mayby you`re just unlucky or on a low populated server.

Why simplify things when its so easy to complicate them ?

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Posted by: zealex.9410

zealex.9410

just did ds a couple of hours ago ( 2 i believe ) so not sure how you find maps dead because the last couple of days that i farm currencies and ore for hot leggies iv found the maps running the meta and succiding (well not all the time but a reasonable amount)

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Posted by: Pepsi.8907

Pepsi.8907

They are not for groups but they are not an average trash mob. “Veteran”, or more challenging than normal, mobs exist in nearly every mmorpg out there and they all serve the same purpose, to be more like boss-like encounters for a single player, or if you go to an area that has lots of them, a place for groups. It’s not unique to GW2 to have more challenging foes out in the open world.

To be perfectly honest, I think the boss-like encounters for a single player should be reserved for Champions in core game. I don’t think it’s that farfetched to say that pulling 1-3 veteran with a bunch of satellites hovering around would not be infeasible. Even in the cursed shore (giants for example).
Champions are where it’s at in term of boss equivalent for solo.

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Posted by: Rognik.2579

Rognik.2579

I happened to drop by DS last night and this morning, both times there was an organized group. We even kill the ugly MF in less then 20 mins last night.

MF meaning Mordremoth Facet, right?

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Posted by: Chris McSwag.4683

Chris McSwag.4683

Metas are still run and completed multiple times per day och multiple maps. If anything it is time for the community to stop asking for easier content and git gud instead.

[eS] Ethereal Synergy
DPS Benchmarks, Raids, Low-mans etc.

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Posted by: Runiir.6425

Runiir.6425

Have been saying things along this line since the new player experience was put into the game and literally made the core game a joke.

It was already a joke. The core game was blanket nerfed in the original beta, basically halving everything. Enemy damage was originally a lot like HoT, even a little higher in some cases with dodge or die special attacks.

Most players simply do not want a challenge and attempting to force change will only come at a great loss, as they’ll simply go somewhere else. Look at any other MMO and solo content is usually a joke. ArenaNet has always been for the gamers however, rather than the majority. If they have no plans to continue supporting that audience, they really should revert the core game, simply to not mislead people early on.

Oh, i know that the game was nerfed during the beta because People were screaming about the oh so high difficulty.
But the new player experience turned the game into an even greater joke for me.

HoT is what Lvl 80 content should be..
And i’m not saying the entire Level curve should be like that but let’s be honest, when you Level your character, gain your first Utility Slot and gain a skill that you will most likely ignore because it’s a condi counter and most low level mobs had their conditions removed… yeah..

Events should scale better, Veterans should have better builds than normal enemies, Elites should have better builds than Veterans (not just more HP) and, let’s say for example, every 10 or so Levels the Areas should add something for you to learn, CC, Conditions, Breakbars and so forth.

If you had all that during leveling not only would you feel more accomplished in the higher areas, given a decent rework, it would also make lvl 80 characters scaled down less of a powerhouse in the lower areas because they had to look out too.

Challenge can be done gradually so that it doesn’t feel too hard but just that amount that would make you learn something.
Know enough people who quit the game because the easy mode that is core tyria is too boring for them.

Breakbars need to die and be stripped entirely from the kitten game. They are the reason so many builds are no longer viable (BAD game design) otherwise I agree with you that every 10 levels or so in core Tyria the enemies need to have something extra…and Orr changed back to what it was originally (worse than HOT originally).

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Posted by: Healix.5819

Healix.5819

and Orr changed back to what it was originally (worse than HOT originally).

Reverting Orr to how it was would actually be a pretty big nerf to it. The original major nerfs were toning down the amount of enemies and changing some of the CC, most notably the Putrifier’s anchor pull. After that however, they buffed enemies by giving them new, far stronger attacks and Dwayna and Grenth were reworked and made much stronger. As a sample of the new attacks, abominations didn’t originally charge and nobles didn’t have marks. Basically every AoE attack didn’t exist at the start, as they were added to counter the zergs.

It only feels easier today because everyone’s geared, whereas back then, it was common to reach Orr in level 60-75 fine/masterworks with no accessories, since they were crafted, and backpacks didn’t exist.

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Posted by: Illconceived Was Na.9781

Illconceived Was Na.9781

Breakbars need to die and be stripped entirely from the kitten game. They are the reason so many builds are no longer viable (BAD game design)

What exactly don’t you like about breakbars? What builds aren’t viable because of breakbars? Did you prefer the old defiance system, in which you had to count how many times the target was hit with a hard CC?

And what does this have to do with whether the HoT metas need to be nerfed?

John Smith: “you should kill monsters, because killing monsters is awesome.”

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Posted by: Runiir.6425

Runiir.6425

and Orr changed back to what it was originally (worse than HOT originally).

Reverting Orr to how it was would actually be a pretty big nerf to it. The original major nerfs were toning down the amount of enemies and changing some of the CC, most notably the Putrifier’s anchor pull. After that however, they buffed enemies by giving them new, far stronger attacks and Dwayna and Grenth were reworked and made much stronger. As a sample of the new attacks, abominations didn’t originally charge and nobles didn’t have marks. Basically every AoE attack didn’t exist at the start, as they were added to counter the zergs.

It only feels easier today because everyone’s geared, whereas back then, it was common to reach Orr in level 60-75 fine/masterworks with no accessories, since they were crafted, and backpacks didn’t exist.

Well I meant more for the density. In many places it feels as though only half the mobs are there that used to be there.

Breakbars need to die and be stripped entirely from the kitten game. They are the reason so many builds are no longer viable (BAD game design)

What exactly don’t you like about breakbars? What builds aren’t viable because of breakbars? Did you prefer the old defiance system, in which you had to count how many times the target was hit with a hard CC?

And what does this have to do with whether the HoT metas need to be nerfed?

Break bars are bad design. A relatively popular and well loved build for warrior used to be sword/sword and a rifle. Goodluck surviving in HOT that way. You have no aoe, you also have nothing that reliably effects the break bars. Most of your utilities will not be breakers in such a build, they will be cleanses, sigils, shouts more likely than anything. Now play through the story, or play a meta that way. You are a leech in meta unable to help the break bar, and in any solo content you are a sitting duck because of that bar being so central a part of the game now for boss fights including metas.

EVERY attack should effect that bar so that every build can be viable. If you have no breaker skills (and not every build has them people, stop thinking how YOU play and start thinking about every possible combination) you are more or less a waste of space in the boss fights of a meta. In fact you not being there makes it easier as the boss will have less health and the break bar will be smaller.

In short, if you have to change your weapon choices and build to accomodate a mechanic…then you have built your game wrong. Part of GOOD game design is making every build you have allowed to be built by players into viable ones. At the very least viable for open world/story content.
Also, I prefered stability the original way of it being blanket immunity for 3-4 seconds. We had too many ways of gaining stability back then though which was the problem with it, making it the stacks you had to count (IE like PvP now) works just fine too. The better way is to simply trash break bars and put the weakeness that happens when the bar pops into the phases itself naturally. This allows every build to be viable again.

For example, the eir/garm fight. you drop garm she runs to revive him, if you smack her from behind even just once while she is reviving it pops her break bar and she goes into the stun phase, comes out of stun normally and finishes revive fight continues. BAM all builds viable that fast. No need to force people to change weapon choices/build just for a single mechanic that is too dang central to the game. Like Patriarch wyvern breakbar stun being integral to that meta boss fight. You have too many slug builds and you will never stun him, sure the fight is doable that way but congratulations for making a mechanic that requires specific weapons/builds to even be available for use.

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Posted by: SlippyCheeze.5483

SlippyCheeze.5483

What exactly don’t you like about breakbars? What builds aren’t viable because of breakbars? Did you prefer the old defiance system, in which you had to count how many times the target was hit with a hard CC?

And what does this have to do with whether the HoT metas need to be nerfed?

Break bars are bad design. A relatively popular and well loved build for warrior used to be sword/sword and a rifle. Goodluck surviving in HOT that way. You have no aoe, you also have nothing that reliably effects the break bars. Most of your utilities will not be breakers in such a build, they will be cleanses, sigils, shouts more likely than anything.

Given that warriors have several large break bar utility skills, the second half of that reads like “…and I choose not to have any…”. Between that, and the fact that it is perfectly possible to kill things without breaking the bar (and my ranger, and my kittenty mesmer build that has one BB shot every thirty seconds, say hi, and also, they completed multiple hot maps and metas.)

Now play through the story, or play a meta that way. You are a leech in meta unable to help the break bar, and in any solo content you are a sitting duck because of that bar being so central a part of the game now for boss fights including metas.

EVERY attack should effect that bar so that every build can be viable. If you have no breaker skills (and not every build has them people, stop thinking how YOU play and start thinking about every possible combination) you are more or less a waste of space in the boss fights of a meta. In fact you not being there makes it easier as the boss will have less health and the break bar will be smaller.

In short, if you have to change your weapon choices and build to accomodate a mechanic…then you have built your game wrong. Part of GOOD game design is making every build you have allowed to be built by players into viable ones. At the very least viable for open world/story content.

So, really, that’s the heart of the complaint, isn’kitten you don’t want to have enemies that are anything but big ol’ HP sponges, soaking up the damage you throw at them until they expire.

It’s not unreasonable to ask for that, but it’s not really something you get even in simpler ARPG or shooter games, let alone something like GW2. Mechanics, and having to think more than just “how do I hit thee now” are part of the new wave of design.

(WoW and FFXIV are much closer to what you ask for, actually, so perhaps you would find them more satisfying? They don’t have much by way of defense other than “be tough”, and much by way of mechanics other than “interrupt quick action button”, going on.)

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Posted by: Hyper Cutter.9376

Hyper Cutter.9376

Well I meant more for the density. In many places it feels as though only half the mobs are there that used to be there.

Why would you want the old mob density back? It made getting from point A to point B in Orr terrible (it wasn’t difficult, but it was disgustingly tedious).

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Posted by: Illconceived Was Na.9781

Illconceived Was Na.9781

Break bars are bad design.

You’ve repeated that several times, without explaining why it’s “bad design” — you’ve clarified why you don’t like it, which is not the same.

A relatively popular and well loved build for warrior used to be sword/sword and a rifle.

The game evolves and what was popular/good one day needn’t be the next day.

EVERY attack should effect that bar so that every build can be viable.

Why? I doubt I’d like to play a game with two identical mechanics (Health and Breakbar, both affected by every attack)

If you have no breaker skills (and not every build has them people, stop thinking how YOU play and start thinking about every possible combination) you are more or less a waste of space in the boss fights of a meta. In fact you not being there makes it easier as the boss will have less health and the break bar will be smaller.

I don’t follow. Why should I play this game as if it has the mechanics of some other game? This game has breakbars; effective builds to fight bosses necessarily will include skills that can break defiance.

That’s like saying I should be able to run a build that does little damage and has no synergies with itself (or my teammates) and still expect to do as well. That wasn’t true before HoT; it’s less true since.

In short, if you have to change your weapon choices and build to accomodate a mechanic…then you have built your game wrong. Part of GOOD game design is making every build you have allowed to be built by players into viable ones. At the very least viable for open world/story content.

I don’t accept that as a definition for “good design” — that’s a description of a game structure that would please you. It sounds boring to me.

In chess, you can ‘open’ with any piece, but that doesn’t mean that all opening are equally useful and certainly not against any particular opponent.

This allows every build to be viable again.

I don’t see that as a design goal for an interesting game.

It’s very hard to come up with a build that is entirely useless, since we are required to take a heal and each weapon comes with a predetermined set of skills, designed to offer a balance of abilities. All the same, some builds have always been more effective and some barely usable; that’s just a mathematical inevitability of a complex system.

For examples, the eir/garm fight. you drop garm she runs to revive him, if you smack her from behind even just once while she is reviving it pops her break bar and she goes into the stun phase, comes out of stun normally and finishes revive fight continues. BAM all builds viable that fast. No need to force people to change weapon choices/build just for a single mechanic that is too dang central to the game. Like Patriarch wyvern breakbar stun being integral to that meta boss fight. You have too many slug builds and you will never stun him, sure the fight is doable that way but congratulations for making a mechanic that requires specific weapons/builds to even be available for use.

That conflates a bunch of different issues. The Eir/Garm fight is definitely tough, arguably tougher than it ought to be. There are all sorts of ways that it could be simplified and/or made easier without changing defiance at all (for example: scaling her defiance strength to party size).


In short, I see why you do not like a setup which requires you to swap some skills out for specific fights. Personally, I find that more interesting — without stuff like that, all fights begin to feel the same to me and end up just getting in the way of the story.

Which is fine: we can agree to disagree about what makes a fun game.

I draw the line, however, at the claim that it’s inherently bad to reward people for learning the game’s mechanics or including fights that are extra-difficult if those mechanics are ignored.

John Smith: “you should kill monsters, because killing monsters is awesome.”

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Posted by: IndigoSundown.5419

IndigoSundown.5419

Break bars are bad design. A relatively popular and well loved build for warrior used to be sword/sword and a rifle. Goodluck surviving in HOT that way. You have no aoe, you also have nothing that reliably effects the break bars. Most of your utilities will not be breakers in such a build, they will be cleanses, sigils, shouts more likely than anything. Now play through the story, or play a meta that way. You are a leech in meta unable to help the break bar, and in any solo content you are a sitting duck because of that bar being so central a part of the game now for boss fights including metas.

The current state of the art for a condi warrior is Longbow & Sword/Torch, which features four soft CC options on the weapons bars alone. The build also includes a stun, Head Butt, on a 20 second CD.

A Rifle + Sword/Sword Berserker build has access to Cripple (Aimed Shot), Immobilize (Brutal Shot), Knockback (Rifle Butt), and Daze (Gun Flame), Immobilize (Flurry), Cripple (Hamstring) and Cripple (Savage Leap). Seven skills that are either soft or hard CC and affect break bars.

If Sword/Sword + Rifle is no longer viable, it’s more likely that the reason was the removal of the bleed from Rifle #1. Since sword is a condi weapon, this meant that Rifle’s only access to condition damage was via Gun Flame. That’s certainly why the ranged weapon choice in the meta condi DPS build is Longbow which has less CC than rifle.

(edited by IndigoSundown.5419)

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Posted by: DarcShriek.5829

DarcShriek.5829

I just completed a T4 VB. AB’s and DS’s metas are completed routinely. These definitely don’t need to be nerfed. TD’s meta, may need to be looked into.

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Posted by: Runiir.6425

Runiir.6425

I love it when everyone jumps on me. Usually means I am pushing the right buttons.

Sarcasm aside. Every attack was over the top, however every weapon should have an attack on it, somewhere, that effects that bar.

As for the person that goes “you choose not to use those utilities” everyone’s playstyle is different. Many people prefer tankier builds which means your utilities are all for self defense/cleanses/etc, not for attack purposes. As I’ve said before, forcing that change without recompense is bad design.

Yes I’ve beaten the story without any breakbar skills. Not what I would consider fun though heh.

There just has to be a better way to handle this.

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Posted by: flog.3485

flog.3485

I love it when everyone jumps on me. Usually means I am pushing the right buttons.

Sarcasm aside. Every attack was over the top, however every weapon should have an attack on it, somewhere, that effects that bar.

As for the person that goes “you choose not to use those utilities” everyone’s playstyle is different. Many people prefer tankier builds which means your utilities are all for self defense/cleanses/etc, not for attack purposes. As I’ve said before, forcing that change without recompense is bad design.

Yes I’ve beaten the story without any breakbar skills. Not what I would consider fun though heh.

There just has to be a better way to handle this.

If you completed it without breakbar skills why do you complain about needing one ?

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Posted by: Runiir.6425

Runiir.6425

I love it when everyone jumps on me. Usually means I am pushing the right buttons.

Sarcasm aside. Every attack was over the top, however every weapon should have an attack on it, somewhere, that effects that bar.

As for the person that goes “you choose not to use those utilities” everyone’s playstyle is different. Many people prefer tankier builds which means your utilities are all for self defense/cleanses/etc, not for attack purposes. As I’ve said before, forcing that change without recompense is bad design.

Yes I’ve beaten the story without any breakbar skills. Not what I would consider fun though heh.

There just has to be a better way to handle this.

If you completed it without breakbar skills why do you complain about needing one ?

I do not always take positions I personally feel in discussions. This is a forum, it’s purpose is for discussions, preferably with emotion removed from the equation and neither side feeling anything personal.
Breakbars are also a thing I see in mapchats that people complain about. The Patriarch meta boss I see a lot of complaining about the breakbar…or rather lack of people trying to break it to stun it.

Remove emotion, remove any personal attachment, feelings that ‘you can do it with this’, and simply look at the merits. Can this be changed to open up more builds, or to reduce the lack of non-involement with it?

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Posted by: Vayne.8563

Vayne.8563

I love it when everyone jumps on me. Usually means I am pushing the right buttons.

Sarcasm aside. Every attack was over the top, however every weapon should have an attack on it, somewhere, that effects that bar.

As for the person that goes “you choose not to use those utilities” everyone’s playstyle is different. Many people prefer tankier builds which means your utilities are all for self defense/cleanses/etc, not for attack purposes. As I’ve said before, forcing that change without recompense is bad design.

Yes I’ve beaten the story without any breakbar skills. Not what I would consider fun though heh.

There just has to be a better way to handle this.

If you completed it without breakbar skills why do you complain about needing one ?

I do not always take positions I personally feel in discussions. This is a forum, it’s purpose is for discussions, preferably with emotion removed from the equation and neither side feeling anything personal.
Breakbars are also a thing I see in mapchats that people complain about. The Patriarch meta boss I see a lot of complaining about the breakbar…or rather lack of people trying to break it to stun it.

Remove emotion, remove any personal attachment, feelings that ‘you can do it with this’, and simply look at the merits. Can this be changed to open up more builds, or to reduce the lack of non-involement with it?

The patriarch doesn’t have a break bar, so I assume you’re talking about the matriarch. And yes, people complain about it, but just as many people or more used to complain about defiance which was the mechanic that break bars replaced. They do the same thing but break bars are easier to visually see what you’re doing. Defiance was terribad.

The thing is, just because people complain about something doesn’t make it bad for the game. People complain about not having mounts, but a lot of people seem to think that’s a good idea.

There are a bunch of CC skills that were basically sitting and gathering dust. There was no variety in PvE before. There was no reason to take a CC skill pretty much ever in PvE. That lack of variety in skills, where everything was about damage damage damage, hurt the game and there were tons of complaints about that.

The break bar solved a problem. That doesn’t mean it was introduced well, and it doesn’t mean there’s enough explanation of it, but those two things don’t mean it was bad for the game either. It added to the game an element of thought and strategy that had previously been missing.

Surely the mechanic isn’t so hard that people can’t learn it. And yes, having to learn stuff is part of playing MMOs.

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Posted by: flog.3485

flog.3485

I love it when everyone jumps on me. Usually means I am pushing the right buttons.

Sarcasm aside. Every attack was over the top, however every weapon should have an attack on it, somewhere, that effects that bar.

As for the person that goes “you choose not to use those utilities” everyone’s playstyle is different. Many people prefer tankier builds which means your utilities are all for self defense/cleanses/etc, not for attack purposes. As I’ve said before, forcing that change without recompense is bad design.

Yes I’ve beaten the story without any breakbar skills. Not what I would consider fun though heh.

There just has to be a better way to handle this.

If you completed it without breakbar skills why do you complain about needing one ?

I do not always take positions I personally feel in discussions. This is a forum, it’s purpose is for discussions, preferably with emotion removed from the equation and neither side feeling anything personal.
Breakbars are also a thing I see in mapchats that people complain about. The Patriarch meta boss I see a lot of complaining about the breakbar…or rather lack of people trying to break it to stun it.

Remove emotion, remove any personal attachment, feelings that ‘you can do it with this’, and simply look at the merits. Can this be changed to open up more builds, or to reduce the lack of non-involement with it?

You know I was asking a simple question. I founded weird that you complain about breakbars and yet state in your experience that you were able to complete your personal story without breakbar skills. Anyway back on your complain because I just can’t agree with you. Using skills that contribute to breaking the bars does not kill diversity. I mean you could play the tankiest warrior nomad build and still contribute to breaking the bar in a fight by using headbutt, and if your use shield for example, by pressing skill 4. Following your example I remember reading from, you could play rifle and 2 swords, and also contribute through rifle butt, aimed shot and gun flame for example. Furthermore, in case you haven’t noticed, some people also ask to not break the bar for some encounters like tangle depths meta and dragon stand.

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Posted by: Drakz.7051

Drakz.7051

Whenever you want to break the bar no one uses cc, when you want them to slowly knock it down they tear it down in seconds, the game needs to put some mandatory training in their story content, like a new mob appears and Rytlock or someone tells you that you need to break their bar or not so.

Onto the main topic, eventually they will need to nerf the HoT meta because when you content comes out old is left behind, when the new expac is out a huge majority will be in that and HoT (requiring a few members to do map stuff) can be the wall blocking off new players because they get destroyed due to lack of players.

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Posted by: Kumouta.4985

Kumouta.4985

All you need stuns for is a few raids. Otherwise it isn’t NEEDED. Those chak flies can be killed with cripple or chill, and most enemies i know of with breakbars just die faster when broken; not invulnerable until broken.
It isn’t time to nerf metas because the maguuma jungle is still populated enough. Perhaps upping the rewards will keep players in there for when new stuff comes out.
If that doesn’t work then, and only then, should the metas be nerfed.

I can apply over 3 stacks of bleeding.

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Posted by: Rink.6108

Rink.6108

I agree that atm the content doesn’t really have to be nerfed, as the maps have enough population. Some hero points with champions aren’t easy to complete solo, but people help out if you ask in mapchat or after the meta (I completed VB, AB and TD on the weekend without problem). And there is only one (mushroom in TD) that maybe isn’t possible to complete with 1 teammate. But LS3-maps show, that the content will be probably better scaleable in the future also for solo-players.

Breakbars: I also think it would have been nice to have learned this new mechanic through story before it was implemented in the world. Now I know how it works and what skills have a big or small effect on the breakbars, but it really isn’t “easy” to understand. You have to check the internet to find out what skills you have do how much to breakbars.

I am not sure what the next expansion will bring. If it is the same as HoT, then we can expect that all classes get more powerful through the expansion and this would make future nerfing of HoT-maps unnecessary.

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Posted by: Ayrilana.1396

Ayrilana.1396

They could just make a new daily category such like how all vistas are within one category. They can then add back daily dodger and interrupts. I think blast fields were a daily for a short time. They could then add breakbars to the list. Use these as a means to teach players through repetition.

I personally don’t know how impactful this would be though as I’m pretty sure the issue isn’t a lack of knowing about these.

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Posted by: AliamRationem.5172

AliamRationem.5172

I agree that atm the content doesn’t really have to be nerfed, as the maps have enough population. Some hero points with champions aren’t easy to complete solo, but people help out if you ask in mapchat or after the meta (I completed VB, AB and TD on the weekend without problem). And there is only one (mushroom in TD) that maybe isn’t possible to complete with 1 teammate. But LS3-maps show, that the content will be probably better scaleable in the future also for solo-players.

Breakbars: I also think it would have been nice to have learned this new mechanic through story before it was implemented in the world. Now I know how it works and what skills have a big or small effect on the breakbars, but it really isn’t “easy” to understand. You have to check the internet to find out what skills you have do how much to breakbars.

I am not sure what the next expansion will bring. If it is the same as HoT, then we can expect that all classes get more powerful through the expansion and this would make future nerfing of HoT-maps unnecessary.

Some breakbar training would be welcome, but again it isn’t that critical. Certainly players who have no knowledge of breakbar mechanics are a burden during certain boss encounters (most notably wyvern matriarch), but for the most part in open world play it isn’t that big a deal. Certainly not to the point where players are forced to make drastic changes to their builds just to deal with breakbars, as another player asserted.

I solo’d that mushroom queen HP on my elementalist. I used my preferred weapon set (daggers) instead of a ranged weapon, and swapped out only one utility (arcane wave for mist form) and one trait line (earth for water) from my normal open world build. Although I am capable of breaking her bar with this build, it requires dropping soft CC on her with overload earth at close range which is not ideal. So I didn’t bother trying to break her bar and just beat her straight up.

Still, I would welcome some form of training as part of the initial HoT experience. It really couldn’t hurt, even if we’re making a bit too big a deal about the importance of breakbars here.

As for future expansions, I have a feeling new elite specs will emerge and that they will be mutually exclusive such that players choose 1 of however many elite specs are available and two of the other specs. If not, they will probably have to rebalance the trait system so that non-elite trait lines don’t become irrelevant. This may or may not involve further power creep. But it’s all just guesswork, really. I suppose we’ll cross that bridge when we come to it.

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Posted by: Ookamikun.6472

Ookamikun.6472

I think the only non-boss/champ/legendary enemy with breakbars that are a chore to fight are the Jade Constructs, and only because it is a mandatory phase because they become invulnerable.

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Posted by: Cyninja.2954

Cyninja.2954

To lazy to read the entire post, skimmed some of it. TC does not know or understand how to use the lfg feature in game. Solution: learn to use the lfg tool. Problem solved.

The HoT difficulty was already nerfed post HoT launch twice. It was fine before the very first nerf (and people managed to complete the metas back then) and it is most certainly fine now. Not every map event needs to roll over and provide loot when the minimum effort to succeed is literally:

- check time of next event
- spend 15 – 30 seconds of moving to an organized map
- ????
- profit.

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Posted by: Kumouta.4985

Kumouta.4985

“i don’t take a weapon with a stun or a utility with a stun, so breakbars are bad”

I can apply over 3 stacks of bleeding.

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Posted by: Abelisk.4527

Abelisk.4527

If there are no leaders, become one.

For example for the Ley-Line Anomaly events I always yell in map chat that the event will start, then I yell stuff like Hold CC, CC, Coals, etc.

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Posted by: LONGA.1652

LONGA.1652

Things I found why HoT meta map fell.

1 People not wanting to start LFG or Tag up. Becasue they aren’t sure if it worth their time.

2 Mega server keep closing when there any stalled event on the map. Causing population to scatter all over the palce.

3 Some events are too easily scaled up when peopel walk pass it. Especially Fed-ex Type event where people don’t bother cause they don’t get more loot running it

4 Lack of critical tool to communicate strategically in Pugs zerg . People just follow tags blindly.

5 The Yolo 11111 Pugs who cried for HP train .HP train that refuse to leave map .Map chat commander who doesn’t really tag up but rather insult the guy that tag up.

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Posted by: rwolf.9571

rwolf.9571

If there are no leaders, become one.

For example for the Ley-Line Anomaly events I always yell in map chat that the event will start, then I yell stuff like Hold CC, CC, Coals, etc.

You don’t even need to command most of them. Just hosting a LFG is enough to get a meta going.

First time I ran Dragon Stand, all I needed to do was just assign one sub-group for the boss lane. And tell the main group to follow the tag.

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Posted by: Solstace.2514

Solstace.2514

The only issue I have with some of the metas is the massive investment in time needed. Dragon stand is fun but takes over an hour. Tangled depths event is shorter but you have to taxi in early or you will not be able to get into the one map doing it. AB is shorter but since they nerfed the drops it’s harder and harder to find active maps.

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Posted by: AliamRationem.5172

AliamRationem.5172

The only issue I have with some of the metas is the massive investment in time needed. Dragon stand is fun but takes over an hour. Tangled depths event is shorter but you have to taxi in early or you will not be able to get into the one map doing it. AB is shorter but since they nerfed the drops it’s harder and harder to find active maps.

TD meta doesn’t usually organize much earlier than 15 minutes ahead of start time. I did it twice yesterday and both groups organized in the 10 minutes leading up to the meta.

DS and VB are much worse, since they more or less require the entire event cycle to succeed. And DS you can’t even join in late most of the time!

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Posted by: Genlog.4983

Genlog.4983

what i see in many meta maps most players are to squishy build focus way to much only for full dps with no good vitality and toughness they die in a few hits like the sniper mops

its nice for pvp to go berserk build but for pve not really
if i walk behind a player that try to walk true a area full off chaks they die in a few seconds already -.-

i keep ressing him back over and over again and i think omg plz use a difrent build/gear you cant make it here

but again am a ranger and its for me a little bit easier to go true areas and fight bosses
as long my pet get the argo its part off the build i use my pet can tank allot and heal allot to

and for me i use a full asec settler set tougness healing condition damage
and for rings amulets and so on a mix off ased cleric and settler

am pretty tanky and do some nice con damage not that ubber but i can stack up to so 20 bleeding and some poision damage from my ased short bow

and some skills to get more bleeding

but the most dps comes from my pets

for me a love to play it more save then die all the time

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Posted by: Hyper Cutter.9376

Hyper Cutter.9376

I think the only non-boss/champ/legendary enemy with breakbars that are a chore to fight are the Jade Constructs, and only because it is a mandatory phase because they become invulnerable.

Bristlebacks (why do they even have breakbars).

Also Mordrem Desolaters, because nothing about them makes any godkitten sense (why doesn’t breaking the bar make them vulnerable, instead of “wreck your face then arbitrarily become vulnerable”?).

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Posted by: Ayrilana.1396

Ayrilana.1396

I think the only non-boss/champ/legendary enemy with breakbars that are a chore to fight are the Jade Constructs, and only because it is a mandatory phase because they become invulnerable.

Bristlebacks (why do they even have breakbars).

Also Mordrem Desolaters, because nothing about them makes any godkitten sense (why doesn’t breaking the bar make them vulnerable, instead of “wreck your face then arbitrarily become vulnerable”?).

Bristlebacks have breakbars for their annoying rapid fire attack. It becomes more relevant with veteran types and higher as the breakbar interrupts it.

I can’t say much about desolators as I don’t encounter them often.

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Posted by: AliamRationem.5172

AliamRationem.5172

what i see in many meta maps most players are to squishy build focus way to much only for full dps with no good vitality and toughness they die in a few hits like the sniper mops

I agree and I’ve discussed this often on the forums. I’ve come to the conclusion that raid-level players don’t much care about solo open world play. Efficiency and group damage contribution are more important in that context. Many group events can be done solo by skilled players with a full glass build, and the rest are simply a waste of time. Given that, why would you use anything but the most efficient build?

However, players at the lower end of the spectrum can use all the help they can get. Many players in the above category push the idea that defensive stats do nothing (literally nothing!) and that the only way to succeed is by killing enemies before they can kill you. From their perspective, there’s a lot of truth to that. But it often doesn’t work at all for players with different priorities and a different skill level.

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Posted by: Solstace.2514

Solstace.2514

It would be nice to see better scaling. I was in AB last night but missed the one map doing it and was placed in overflow. We had about 14 to 16 total players and split to about 4 per lane. Everyone knew mechanics but it was just impossible to do with that few people.

With declining player populations due to the multimap nerf, it’s becoming harder and harder to do successful metas.

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Posted by: mtpelion.4562

mtpelion.4562

I agree that they need to revisit the low end of their scaling process. Overall population on these maps is down from launch, and when you get onto a low population instance some of the events (and most of the non-channel Hero Points) can be brutal.

HoT is old content now, and thanks to poor scaling needs to be retuned.

Server: Devona’s Rest

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Posted by: Moonyeti.3296

Moonyeti.3296

It would be nice to see better scaling. I was in AB last night but missed the one map doing it and was placed in overflow. We had about 14 to 16 total players and split to about 4 per lane. Everyone knew mechanics but it was just impossible to do with that few people.

With declining player populations due to the multimap nerf, it’s becoming harder and harder to do successful metas.

It seems pretty all or nothing. It should evenly distribute better once a map is full enough to have a few medium population maps instead of 1 completely full one and a few empty spillover maps. I go in early and usually have no problems at all because the map is bursting with people. But if you miss that brief window, you may as well wait for the next meta cycle. It’s either overkill or way too few people to do it.

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Posted by: Ayrilana.1396

Ayrilana.1396

I’ve done all sides with less that 10 each before. A full map isn’t needed.

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Posted by: mtpelion.4562

mtpelion.4562

I’ve done all sides with less that 10 each before. A full map isn’t needed.

Yes, they are doable, but the added difficulty combined with the fact that you’ve done it several times takes it out of the “fun” realm and into the “chore” realm.

When playing a game is a chore, it is failing at being a game.

Server: Devona’s Rest

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Posted by: Moonyeti.3296

Moonyeti.3296

I’ve done all sides with less that 10 each before. A full map isn’t needed.

Absolutely, none of the mechanics are very complicated. If you have a small group of people who have the basic knowhow and basic coordination it can be done with a lot less. Those do not tend to be the people that end up on the overflow maps though. That’s why I would love to see that maps evenly fill up rather than a huge full map and barren ones.