Guild Wars 2

Nike.2631:

A trick he gets surprise people with once and even that only gives him a fixed set to tools. Some of which I’ll know he can’t use yet because of the way the energy mechanic resets to 50%.

You are assuming that there are skills that would require more than 50% of the skill bar.

Breckmoney.6387:

BrunoBRS.5178:

Breckmoney.6387:

I like the idea of legend skills being locked, personally. Legends should in theory be iconic for some reason or another; it’d be weird to have some of Jalis mixed with some of Mallyx or whoever else is introduced. Asking ANet to make too many utilities per legend is probably just not reasonable from a design standpoint.

And I don’t even know if they’ll be less flexible in the end – in the two example legends today you can go from tanky and supportive to what I assume is a higher DPS condition class with just a legend swap. That’s more than many classes can say. What they might be is hard to gear around and maybe people will just run celestial to be decent at everything.

The problem is that theorycrafting and buildmaking is severely stripped down if all you can really choose are the legends. I honestly don’t know how they would adapt the current system to allow for more in-build flexibility (i.e. adding your personal touch or variation to a typical build), but I hope they can find a solution, or else revenant will get really stagnant really fast.

They still have traits and the Revenant’s specialization to play with some of that. Worst case I think they end up being perhaps less flexible overall but maybe much more flexible in any given encounter since they can change so much of how the class works on the fly. Not sure which is better but both have high points.

traits are modifiers, not whole new skills. traits are meant to complement your main choice (i.e. weapons and utilities). unless those traits wildly affect the playstyle of a legend to the point it’s hardly recognizable, they won’t be enough.

and you have to keep in mind that you’ll probably want to pick two complementary legends, not suddenly going from DPS to support, as the revenant playstyle will be much more centered on swapping legends frequently (not as frequently as an ele swaps, but the push and pull of energy with swapping legends giving you a fresh energy bar are still there), and you don’t want to be bursting a guy down, run out of energy, and then swap to some support dude or AA the guy to hell. similarly, you don’t want to be a sitting duck once your support skills are done, because you have the DPS of a wet noodle.

VodCom.6924:

You already know the playstyle of an opponent by looking at his weapons and buff bar. It’s not like you’ll cross a ranger running a condition trait setup with a greatsword.

Bruh I see Rabid ranger with LB/GS,celestial Ham/GS war you would be surprised what people use now.

The fact that Revenants are most likely going to be stuck with just melee or range is kind of a bummer, honestly. At least Elementalists can conjure ranged or melee weapons…

It would be cool if Revenants had a spammable or AA melee skill and a spammable or AA ranged skill within the same weapon skill set…

Test.8734:

Nike.2631:

A trick he gets surprise people with once and even that only gives him a fixed set to tools. Some of which I’ll know he can’t use yet because of the way the energy mechanic resets to 50%.

You are assuming that there are skills that would require more than 50% of the skill bar.

why not? thief has weapon skills that cost up to 6 initiative from a pool of 12 (7 if you count underwater weapons, but lolunderwaterthief). and running short of energy while your other dude is on cooldown is bound to be a bad thing, so i doubt many revenants would burn their whole bar in a single attack right after swapping.

Khenzy.9348:

The fact that Revenants are most likely going to be stuck with just melee or range is kind of a bummer, honestly. At least Elementalists can conjure ranged or melee weapons…

It would be cool if Revenants had a spammable or AA melee skill and a spammable or AA ranged skill within the same weapon skill set…

engis have a single melee option, and it takes a utility slot. think about that for a moment :P

BrunoBRS.5178:

Khenzy.9348:

The fact that Revenants are most likely going to be stuck with just melee or range is kind of a bummer, honestly. At least Elementalists can conjure ranged or melee weapons…

It would be cool if Revenants had a spammable or AA melee skill and a spammable or AA ranged skill within the same weapon skill set…

engis have a single melee option, and it takes a utility slot. think about that for a moment :P

and from the looks of it rev´s hammer is gonna be aoe…so it can be easily used in melee aswell…like nades

BrunoBRS.5178:

Breckmoney.6387:

BrunoBRS.5178:

Breckmoney.6387:

I like the idea of legend skills being locked, personally. Legends should in theory be iconic for some reason or another; it’d be weird to have some of Jalis mixed with some of Mallyx or whoever else is introduced. Asking ANet to make too many utilities per legend is probably just not reasonable from a design standpoint.

And I don’t even know if they’ll be less flexible in the end – in the two example legends today you can go from tanky and supportive to what I assume is a higher DPS condition class with just a legend swap. That’s more than many classes can say. What they might be is hard to gear around and maybe people will just run celestial to be decent at everything.

The problem is that theorycrafting and buildmaking is severely stripped down if all you can really choose are the legends. I honestly don’t know how they would adapt the current system to allow for more in-build flexibility (i.e. adding your personal touch or variation to a typical build), but I hope they can find a solution, or else revenant will get really stagnant really fast.

They still have traits and the Revenant’s specialization to play with some of that. Worst case I think they end up being perhaps less flexible overall but maybe much more flexible in any given encounter since they can change so much of how the class works on the fly. Not sure which is better but both have high points.

traits are modifiers, not whole new skills. traits are meant to complement your main choice (i.e. weapons and utilities). unless those traits wildly affect the playstyle of a legend to the point it’s hardly recognizable, they won’t be enough.

and you have to keep in mind that you’ll probably want to pick two complementary legends, not suddenly going from DPS to support, as the revenant playstyle will be much more centered on swapping legends frequently (not as frequently as an ele swaps, but the push and pull of energy with swapping legends giving you a fresh energy bar are still there), and you don’t want to be bursting a guy down, run out of energy, and then swap to some support dude or AA the guy to hell. similarly, you don’t want to be a sitting duck once your support skills are done, because you have the DPS of a wet noodle.

Is this really much different than other classes, though? If you’re running an “optimal” meta build it’s usually one utility at most that can really be switched out, and even that usually comes back to traits. If I’m running med on my guard my utility, heal and elite are basically set in stone. Even if I’m going for more of a WvW-style build it’ll probably be one skill at most that I change out.

I’m not saying they’ll be the most flexible class, but I don’t think they’ll be that much different than a decent few already in the game.

BrunoBRS.5178:

Khenzy.9348:

The fact that Revenants are most likely going to be stuck with just melee or range is kind of a bummer, honestly. At least Elementalists can conjure ranged or melee weapons…

It would be cool if Revenants had a spammable or AA melee skill and a spammable or AA ranged skill within the same weapon skill set…

engis have a single melee option, and it takes a utility slot. think about that for a moment :P

Since when were conjured weapons that popular?? Yes engi are locked as well and are more dangerous then ele.

Test.8734:

You are assuming that there are skills that would require more than 50% of the skill bar.

Indeed I am.

Some skills will have a low energy cost, allowing you to use them more often, while others have a large cost with a very large payoff. When you invoke a new legend, you’ll begin at half energy and generate more energy over time. This creates a push-and-pull feel with the energy that you manage as you use your skills.

There is no way I get “no skill will ever cost more than 50%/the amount you start with” from that. There’s not much “push-pull” if you come in with all your buttons hot and are just waiting to store up double what you need for your best shot…

BrunoBRS.5178:

Khenzy.9348:

The fact that Revenants are most likely going to be stuck with just melee or range is kind of a bummer, honestly. At least Elementalists can conjure ranged or melee weapons…

It would be cool if Revenants had a spammable or AA melee skill and a spammable or AA ranged skill within the same weapon skill set…

engis have a single melee option, and it takes a utility slot. think about that for a moment :P

But they have it. And you say it as a bad thing, it’s an incredibly strong utility skill at that.
If Engineer utility skills are that strong, I can imagine Revenant’s being even stronger though. It’s even more of their profession mechanic than Engineer’s after all.

Nike.2631:

There is no way I get “no skill will ever cost more than 50%/the amount you start with” from that. There’s not much “push-pull” if you come in with all your buttons hot and are just waiting to store up double what you need for your best shot…

Assuming “your best shot” is a single skill – which is something that would be poor design – instead of a strategic combination of skills, which would require more than 50% energy.

Breckmoney.6387:

BrunoBRS.5178:

Breckmoney.6387:

BrunoBRS.5178:

Breckmoney.6387:

I like the idea of legend skills being locked, personally. Legends should in theory be iconic for some reason or another; it’d be weird to have some of Jalis mixed with some of Mallyx or whoever else is introduced. Asking ANet to make too many utilities per legend is probably just not reasonable from a design standpoint.

And I don’t even know if they’ll be less flexible in the end – in the two example legends today you can go from tanky and supportive to what I assume is a higher DPS condition class with just a legend swap. That’s more than many classes can say. What they might be is hard to gear around and maybe people will just run celestial to be decent at everything.

The problem is that theorycrafting and buildmaking is severely stripped down if all you can really choose are the legends. I honestly don’t know how they would adapt the current system to allow for more in-build flexibility (i.e. adding your personal touch or variation to a typical build), but I hope they can find a solution, or else revenant will get really stagnant really fast.

They still have traits and the Revenant’s specialization to play with some of that. Worst case I think they end up being perhaps less flexible overall but maybe much more flexible in any given encounter since they can change so much of how the class works on the fly. Not sure which is better but both have high points.

traits are modifiers, not whole new skills. traits are meant to complement your main choice (i.e. weapons and utilities). unless those traits wildly affect the playstyle of a legend to the point it’s hardly recognizable, they won’t be enough.

and you have to keep in mind that you’ll probably want to pick two complementary legends, not suddenly going from DPS to support, as the revenant playstyle will be much more centered on swapping legends frequently (not as frequently as an ele swaps, but the push and pull of energy with swapping legends giving you a fresh energy bar are still there), and you don’t want to be bursting a guy down, run out of energy, and then swap to some support dude or AA the guy to hell. similarly, you don’t want to be a sitting duck once your support skills are done, because you have the DPS of a wet noodle.

Is this really much different than other classes, though? If you’re running an “optimal” meta build it’s usually one utility at most that can really be switched out, and even that usually comes back to traits. If I’m running med on my guard my utility, heal and elite are basically set in stone. Even if I’m going for more of a WvW-style build it’ll probably be one skill at most that I change out.

I’m not saying they’ll be the most flexible class, but I don’t think they’ll be that much different than a decent few already in the game.

that’s the thing, though. you can change your heals, elite, and utilities. most people will run the prebaked variation, but some people might want to use the other heals (i like using the meditation heal on my medi guard, but shelter is still an extremely strong option for any builds), or swap a utility (replace one of your meditations with a stability source, or maybe wall of reflection or sanctuary), and so on.

there is no “personal touch” to revenant skills. every single hammer jalis build will look and play exactly the same. there’s no “let me use shadow trap instead of infiltrator signet”, no “do i go for withdraw or hide in shadows”, no “triple signet or do i bring lightning reflexes, and if so, which signet do i sacrifice”, etc. no element of surprise, no room for the meta to evolve without balance changes.

Roy Cronacher.1576:

morrolan.9608:

Roy Cronacher.1576:

Nike.2631:

Roy Cronacher.1576:

The skills on the right half of your bar are tied to the legend which you are currently invoking.

Lets see if I can phrase this unambiguously:

When I am invoking Bob the Mighty, will I have a Bob-themed pool of skills to choose from when filling out my right-hand tray, or does channeling Bob the Mighty give me an absolutely specific set of 5 skills without variation from any other Revenant invoking Bob?

I realize the answer may be different for buttons 6 and 0 than it is for buttons 7, 8, & 9.

That is not set in stone yet and something we are deciding still.

As noted earlier in the thread if there isn’t a choice it appears the revenant will feature less customisation than other classes and may be quite inflexible.

There options really are the legends you bring which offer unique playstyles and skills, I can see your point though.

Make it so that, for each legend, you can pick 3 out of 4 utility skills, plus any racial skill. I think that could be a solution.

Too many pages to go through but…isn’t slow already in the game, just called chilled?

Sagat.3285:

BrunoBRS.5178:

Khenzy.9348:

The fact that Revenants are most likely going to be stuck with just melee or range is kind of a bummer, honestly. At least Elementalists can conjure ranged or melee weapons…

It would be cool if Revenants had a spammable or AA melee skill and a spammable or AA ranged skill within the same weapon skill set…

engis have a single melee option, and it takes a utility slot. think about that for a moment :P

Since when were conjured weapons that popular?? Yes engi are locked as well and are more dangerous then ele.

It’s not about popularity, it’s about the choises being there or not. So far, from what little we know, Revenant’s choises really seem kind of restrictive, your choises would come down to: weapons and legends (not counting traits and gear, obviously). That’s it.

This is definetly stretching it a little too far though. With spammable or slightly spammabe skills due to the energy resource and possible trait effects, this profession could achieve some interesting combos, hopefully.

Although, being stuck on a single range like eles, though… darn… that ‘hypes me’ down.

Serophous.9085:

Too many pages to go through but…isn’t slow already in the game, just called chilled?

Chill increases the cooldowns ,but slow will increase the time it takes to execute the skill.

Most of the profession sounds really cool, but if the utilities are completely locked behind the legend (as in Jalis Legend only has 3 utilities and you have no choice but to use these 3 specific utilities in this Legend) gameplay is going to get boring really fast, and adaptability is going to greatly suffer. Both of these points are amplified by only being able to wield 1 weapon.

Ferever.7014:

Serophous.9085:

Too many pages to go through but…isn’t slow already in the game, just called chilled?

Chill increases the cooldowns ,but slow will increase the time it takes to execute the skill.

I’m betting Slow exists because someone at a design meeting finally got tired of the fact Thieves ignore the resource effects of Chill…

BrunoBRS.5178:

Breckmoney.6387:

BrunoBRS.5178:

Breckmoney.6387:

BrunoBRS.5178:

Breckmoney.6387:

I like the idea of legend skills being locked, personally. Legends should in theory be iconic for some reason or another; it’d be weird to have some of Jalis mixed with some of Mallyx or whoever else is introduced. Asking ANet to make too many utilities per legend is probably just not reasonable from a design standpoint.

And I don’t even know if they’ll be less flexible in the end – in the two example legends today you can go from tanky and supportive to what I assume is a higher DPS condition class with just a legend swap. That’s more than many classes can say. What they might be is hard to gear around and maybe people will just run celestial to be decent at everything.

The problem is that theorycrafting and buildmaking is severely stripped down if all you can really choose are the legends. I honestly don’t know how they would adapt the current system to allow for more in-build flexibility (i.e. adding your personal touch or variation to a typical build), but I hope they can find a solution, or else revenant will get really stagnant really fast.

They still have traits and the Revenant’s specialization to play with some of that. Worst case I think they end up being perhaps less flexible overall but maybe much more flexible in any given encounter since they can change so much of how the class works on the fly. Not sure which is better but both have high points.

traits are modifiers, not whole new skills. traits are meant to complement your main choice (i.e. weapons and utilities). unless those traits wildly affect the playstyle of a legend to the point it’s hardly recognizable, they won’t be enough.

and you have to keep in mind that you’ll probably want to pick two complementary legends, not suddenly going from DPS to support, as the revenant playstyle will be much more centered on swapping legends frequently (not as frequently as an ele swaps, but the push and pull of energy with swapping legends giving you a fresh energy bar are still there), and you don’t want to be bursting a guy down, run out of energy, and then swap to some support dude or AA the guy to hell. similarly, you don’t want to be a sitting duck once your support skills are done, because you have the DPS of a wet noodle.

Is this really much different than other classes, though? If you’re running an “optimal” meta build it’s usually one utility at most that can really be switched out, and even that usually comes back to traits. If I’m running med on my guard my utility, heal and elite are basically set in stone. Even if I’m going for more of a WvW-style build it’ll probably be one skill at most that I change out.

I’m not saying they’ll be the most flexible class, but I don’t think they’ll be that much different than a decent few already in the game.

that’s the thing, though. you can change your heals, elite, and utilities. most people will run the prebaked variation, but some people might want to use the other heals (i like using the meditation heal on my medi guard, but shelter is still an extremely strong option for any builds), or swap a utility (replace one of your meditations with a stability source, or maybe wall of reflection or sanctuary), and so on.

there is no “personal touch” to revenant skills. every single hammer jalis build will look and play exactly the same. there’s no “let me use shadow trap instead of infiltrator signet”, no “do i go for withdraw or hide in shadows”, no “triple signet or do i bring lightning reflexes, and if so, which signet do i sacrifice”, etc. no element of surprise, no room for the meta to evolve without balance changes.

But running stability instead of another med is a big deal and your effectiveness is changing pretty dramatically by making that choice. Similarly, if legends aren’t balanced to be “this is the one with crazy DPS, this is the crazy tanky one with no DPS and this is the one that’s super mobile” then someone can run Jalis/whatever #1 instead of Jalis/whatever #2 if they want to make personal changes. The amount of change will be larger since you’re dealing with larger distinct blocks of abilities, but I’m not sure that means it’s noticeably less flexible than some other classes.

GoldenTruth.2853:

Most of the profession sounds really cool, but if the utilities are completely locked behind the legend (as in Jalis Legend only has 3 utilities and you have no choice but to use these 3 specific utilities in this Legend) gameplay is going to get boring really fast, and adaptability is going to greatly suffer. Both of these are only amplified by only being able to wield 1 weapon.

I would hazard a guess that each Legend you’re able to channel will include one utility skill that switches out your weapon skills with another set of 5, similar to Engineer kits.

Its really the only solution I can think of that overcomes the lack of weapon swap, as only having 5 weapon skills seems quite restrictive in current game design.

I’d say that if that’s not the case, then the Utilities are going to have to be semi-spammable, and likely include a lot of “chain” skills to amp up the variability.

I wonder, if they have a large selection of legends to pick from, would that alleviate the customization concerns? There was no mention of how many legends there will be and having 5-6 legends would provide for a similar amount of options to what we currently have for traits in other classes. However, I think I’d prefer having 3-4 legends with a few selectable skills.

I GOT IT! (I’m way more excited about this than I should be)

I was thinking of how the revenants could be allowed choice on utilities without getting in the way of their main class mechanic, which is themed utility swapping.

It’s quite simple, really. They just need a small pool of generic skills to choose from (say, two utility types, one heal, and maybe one elite), unbound from their legends (did anyone say signets?). These skills would be slotted individually in each legend, so at the end of the day the Revenant would still have up to 10 utilities.

Of course, this comes with its own slew of balance considerations: energy costs would have to be considered as potential builds emerge (like a low-maintenance build that allows you to keep your energy levels constantly high while still using plenty of skills), or the generic options being so good people outright replace the whole set of utilities for them, for example.

The point would be that Legends still play a major role in the profession’s playstyle, while still allowing players some flexibility to add their own touch to builds.

On a side note, since we’re talking GW1 mechanics, signets in GW1 had no energy cost. That could be an interesting mechanic to play with.

PS: I understand that it might be too late to make such sweeping changes to the profession, but it seems like the dev team hasn’t decided yet on whether or not to go for fixed utilities, and there are bound to be a bunch of scrapped concept skills that can be somehow repurposed as “generic” skills.

Nike.2631:

Ferever.7014:

Serophous.9085:

Too many pages to go through but…isn’t slow already in the game, just called chilled?

Chill increases the cooldowns ,but slow will increase the time it takes to execute the skill.

I’m betting Slow exists because someone at a design meeting finally got tired of the fact Thieves ignore the resource effects of Chill…

Oh man, you ruin the hype for me not sure if I should laugh or cry.

pdavis.8031:

Roy Cronacher.1576:

pdavis.8031:

As far as resistance I read it as you’ll be immune to any condis during the duration, and if there was any remaining, they would continue as normal. Which would mean that they could still be applied during the time resistance was up, but have no effect until resistance ran out. But I could be wrong.

You are correct.

WOOT!!!!

What did I win!?

Winning is irrevenant.

Well, maybe not. I just wanted to say irrevenant. Looking forward to trying one of these guys. Carry on!

There are a couple ways the build limitations of legends could be worked around without much fuss:

1. Build the skills into legends as defaults, but allow swapping after the fact. A legend’s skills would be designed to work together, but players are free to change that up if they want. This would require a lot more balancing and testing than locking them, though.
2. Lock legend skills to their respective legends, but include a handful of non-legend skills. Aside from racial skills and Antitoxin Spray, the revenant would get a smattering of skills that aren’t bound to a specific legend, and can be swapped into any legend’s bar freely. These would have to be generic and useful for all legends, such as simple resource maintenance.
   1. I recommend creating a skill type based on minor legends. The historical characters that aren’t quite big enough be a proper legend can each get a single skill named and themed after them. These could additionally provide an attribute bonus when slotted, sort of like a signet that doesn’t deactivate. Seriously, who wouldn’t want a “Channel Prof. Yakkington” skill on their bar?

A decision to go with locked right-tray would also play merry havoc if we have another round of “all classes get a new healing skill” since the only way Revenants could do that is by receiving an entire new Legend to invoke.

Same if there was an all classes were to get a new Elite.

And the release of another shared skill like the Antitoxin Spray would snap the system like a twig.

Locking the tray means they have to be designed in complete blocks and released in complete blocks…

Torsailr.8456:

I wonder, if they have a large selection of legends to pick from, would that alleviate the customization concerns? There was no mention of how many legends there will be and having 5-6 legends would provide for a similar amount of options to what we currently have for traits in other classes. However, I think I’d prefer having 3-4 legends with a few selectable skills.

Honestly, even if they go for fixed skills, I’d bet we won’t get more than 6 (as in, that’s the most I could reasonably expect, but I’m not counting on it). Most professions have ~5 utility types (signets, shouts, traps, etc.), so it’s not unreasonable to expect the revenant to have a similar pool of skills, even if they’re stuck in bundles (“Jalis’ skills”, “Mallyx’s skills”, etc.).

It’s worth considering, though, most utility types have 4-5 different skills (not even counting heals and elites that have types, like venoms), and there are only 3 utilities slotted at a time. That could be an alternative way to give Revenants some wiggle room while still making all utilities bound to the selected legends, though I’d still rather see “unbound” utilities.

Nike.2631:

Ferever.7014:

Serophous.9085:

Too many pages to go through but…isn’t slow already in the game, just called chilled?

Chill increases the cooldowns ,but slow will increase the time it takes to execute the skill.

I’m betting Slow exists because someone at a design meeting finally got tired of the fact Thieves ignore the resource effects of Chill…

Chill isn’t deadly for thieves like it is for eles, but making a thief walk super slowly is still pretty dangerous (and our oh-so-important utilities are affected by it).

I think slow is an idea they came up with when they realized that thematically speaking, having a time mage (you just know chronomancer mesmers are coming) that freezes people to simulate slowing them down is a bit silly :P

As I read what the revenant will be about, I got excited, but slowly I begun to get jealous as I notice that they are so much better than the one class that I wish was decent which is the necromancer. They seem to do everything a necromancer could ever wish to do. Better resource management for their toggle, better way to handle conditions, better forms that are meaningful, close range weapons that are RANGED, and plus more. Maybe I am just jumping ship early, but if necro doesnt at least get some of these nice toys that helps it I’ll definitely be deleting my necro for the revenant as my new main.

Breckmoney.6387:

But running stability instead of another med is a big deal and your effectiveness is changing pretty dramatically by making that choice. Similarly, if legends aren’t balanced to be “this is the one with crazy DPS, this is the crazy tanky one with no DPS and this is the one that’s super mobile” then someone can run Jalis/whatever #1 instead of Jalis/whatever #2 if they want to make personal changes. The amount of change will be larger since you’re dealing with larger distinct blocks of abilities, but I’m not sure that means it’s noticeably less flexible than some other classes.

yes, you sacrifice one option (say, more DPS in the case of medi builds) in exchange for another (the safest heal in the game, stability so you’re not stunlocked, etc.). that’s the beauty of it.

let me put it this way. each profession right now has 4 heals, 3 elites, and what, 20 utilities? the actual number doesn’t matter, you’ll see why soon.

just taking utilities into account, you have (20 + 19 + 18) [the 3 utility slots] * 4 [the heal] * 3 [the elite] options.

meanwhile, the revenant has, assuming 5 legend options, 5 + 4 = 9 possible combinations.

as you can see, the number of possible options is far, far inferior in the revenant’s case (even if, yes, i’m counting non-viable builds on both sides).

for the record, that math has a very good chance of being grossly wrong (i haven’t played with statistics and discrete math in a looooooong time), but i’m pretty sure the actual numbers would give a similar depiction of the situation, so even if it’s wrong, the math serves its illustrative purpose.

My necro is not in the slightest bit intimidated by these new chaps.

Then again my build is bizarre .

DiogoSilva.7089:

Roy Cronacher.1576:

morrolan.9608:

Roy Cronacher.1576:

Nike.2631:

Roy Cronacher.1576:

The skills on the right half of your bar are tied to the legend which you are currently invoking.

Lets see if I can phrase this unambiguously:

When I am invoking Bob the Mighty, will I have a Bob-themed pool of skills to choose from when filling out my right-hand tray, or does channeling Bob the Mighty give me an absolutely specific set of 5 skills without variation from any other Revenant invoking Bob?

I realize the answer may be different for buttons 6 and 0 than it is for buttons 7, 8, & 9.

That is not set in stone yet and something we are deciding still.

As noted earlier in the thread if there isn’t a choice it appears the revenant will feature less customisation than other classes and may be quite inflexible.

There options really are the legends you bring which offer unique playstyles and skills, I can see your point though.

Make it so that, for each legend, you can pick 3 out of 4 utility skills, plus any racial skill. I think that could be a solution.

Alternatively, or in addition to, just make some traits that heavily modify each fixed skill.

Uriel.6310:

As I read what the revenant will be about, I got excited, but slowly I begun to get jealous as I notice that they are so much better than the one class that I wish was decent which is the necromancer. They seem to do everything a necromancer could ever wish to do. Better resource management for their toggle, better way to handle conditions, better forms that are meaningful, close range weapons that are RANGED, and plus more. Maybe I am just jumping ship early, but if necro doesnt at least get some of these nice toys that helps it I’ll definitely be deleting my necro for the revenant as my new main.

i’m not sure i get your problem? necros have only one melee option, everything else is ranged (including a commonly melee weapon), so why do you want more range options? necro is also the king of conditions in this game, with the best cleanses and the best condi potential. last but not least, the only thing i saw about revenant that sounded similar to necros was the condi part, where the attacks self-inflict conditions that periodically pulse to enemies without getting cleansed. necros can apply massive conditions on others without the self flagelation part (unless you count epidemic), they can turn boons into conditions, and they can grab the conditions on them and put them on an enemy (when they don’t outright eat the conditions and gain health from it).

“Revenants use their powers to enhance the hammer in order to use it as a ranged weapon.”

That’s all I needed to read. I read the rest, there was some cool stuff, but that killed any hype I have; sorry.

On the plus side, the new boons and conditions look like they’ll mix things up a bit… if they’re properly distributed.

I think I’m falling in the camp that would prefer there to be at least some choice in the utility skills. It probably doesn’t need to be much – each legend would only need 4-5 skills – but locking it to 3 is going to force what’s seen as the ‘best’ revenant build, and takes away one of the key fun parts of building characters in GW2: working out which of the 4 or 5 utility skills that work with your build you have to drop.

The way i see it is that there will be about 5 legends at the start (tank, support, control, condition, dps) and cause in general some of our utilities have up to 5-6 types (4 as utility, 1 as elite, 1 as heal) they might get a bit of flexibility at this point.

Even if they be locked in fine with that anyway. In general we trait in one type of utilities – just look at medi guard. We barely picking something else outside of that as we wont have synergy with traits.

And lol at the speculations that revenant will be predictable. Every class is predicable actually..

Merus.9475:

I think I’m falling in the camp that would prefer there to be at least some choice in the utility skills. It probably doesn’t need to be much – each legend would only need 4-5 skills – but locking it to 3 is going to force what’s seen as the ‘best’ revenant build, and takes away one of the key fun parts of building characters in GW2: working out which of the 4 or 5 utility skills that work with your build you have to drop.

6 max if they do it that way.If each legend is focus around a specific playstyle would that mean all utilities would be condi based,heal based and you would compensate with the other legend? I’m still thinking kick from war,that bundle trait from thief and many others…

I don’t get people with best build, requirements will create it’s own meta not you, personal build sure but are healing thief or tank mesmer viable on any level? Not skills only affect your spec.We need that demo or at least a proper skill showcase should have been made.

Sagat.3285:

Merus.9475:

I think I’m falling in the camp that would prefer there to be at least some choice in the utility skills. It probably doesn’t need to be much – each legend would only need 4-5 skills – but locking it to 3 is going to force what’s seen as the ‘best’ revenant build, and takes away one of the key fun parts of building characters in GW2: working out which of the 4 or 5 utility skills that work with your build you have to drop.

6 max if they do it that way.If each legend is focus around a specific playstyle would that mean all utilities would be condi based,heal based and you would compensate with the other legend? I’m still thinking kick from war,that bundle trait from thief and many others…

I don’t get people with best build, requirements will create it’s own meta not you, personal build sure but are healing thief or tank mesmer viable on any level? Not skills only affect your spec.We need that demo or at least a proper skill showcase should have been made.

you’re missing the point.

even if there is a meta build, choices allow you to step out of it a bit. for example, there are two viable thief heals in the D/P meta build, and what stunbreak you bring is up to you. you can even bring two stunbreaks (shadowstep and the signet are the most popular options). some people like to bring roll for initiative instead of shadowstep. some people like to use shadow trap. and so on.

but most importantly, having options is what allows the meta to evolve organically, without requiring the devs to release patch notes. someone tries something new that beats the old meta, then someone builds something that counters that new build, and so on.

choice is important because otherwise the game becomes stale, like a fighting game with 4 characters.

Roy Cronacher.1576:

Nike.2631:

Roy Cronacher.1576:

The skills on the right half of your bar are tied to the legend which you are currently invoking.

Lets see if I can phrase this unambiguously:

When I am invoking Bob the Mighty, will I have a Bob-themed pool of skills to choose from when filling out my right-hand tray, or does channeling Bob the Mighty give me an absolutely specific set of 5 skills without variation from any other Revenant invoking Bob?

I realize the answer may be different for buttons 6 and 0 than it is for buttons 7, 8, & 9.

That is not set in stone yet and something we are deciding still.

I hope that will change then. Having your utilities set in stone (similair to weapon skills) will take away build variety. I much rather pick my utility skills individually rather than by set. Otherwise it’s just like having a set of predetermined builds that we can choose from, I’d like to create a build myself.

All the other classes have that freedom, the Revenant should too imo.

BrunoBRS.5178:

Sagat.3285:

Merus.9475:

I think I’m falling in the camp that would prefer there to be at least some choice in the utility skills. It probably doesn’t need to be much – each legend would only need 4-5 skills – but locking it to 3 is going to force what’s seen as the ‘best’ revenant build, and takes away one of the key fun parts of building characters in GW2: working out which of the 4 or 5 utility skills that work with your build you have to drop.

6 max if they do it that way.If each legend is focus around a specific playstyle would that mean all utilities would be condi based,heal based and you would compensate with the other legend? I’m still thinking kick from war,that bundle trait from thief and many others…

I don’t get people with best build, requirements will create it’s own meta not you, personal build sure but are healing thief or tank mesmer viable on any level? Not skills only affect your spec.We need that demo or at least a proper skill showcase should have been made.

you’re missing the point.

even if there is a meta build, choices allow you to step out of it a bit. for example, there are two viable thief heals in the D/P meta build, and what stunbreak you bring is up to you. you can even bring two stunbreaks (shadowstep and the signet are the most popular options). some people like to bring roll for initiative instead of shadowstep. some people like to use shadow trap. and so on.

but most importantly, having options is what allows the meta to evolve organically, without requiring the devs to release patch notes. someone tries something new that beats the old meta, then someone builds something that counters that new build, and so on.

choice is important because otherwise the game becomes stale, like a fighting game with 4 characters.

“If you have a pool of utilities that’s too large then it becomes an issue” is all I’m stating. Others and I don’t trust them yet to balance or create proper counters. This a hybrid boon stacking meta and the #1 supposed boon remover can’t even be mentioned the same way I can point out is the skill/reward/purpose on many variations. Most of an MMO worth comes from the social aspect/content and a reason for it. In a game like L2 you wouldn’t stop playng because some of your friends did but rather because you have no one to challenge, GW2 is themepark but they should be careful of what they best offer and avoid previous mistakes. They don’t have to lock the utilities just control them..looks at current classes.

“Don’t create more demons then you can handle”.

I’m pretty sure that Revenants will be able to use mainhand sword, as well. We’ve seen Rytlock using one, and if we’re learning from him, it would make no sense for us to not know how to use one ourselves.

Also, there are few weapons more iconic and fitting to referencing legends than the sword.

Gulesave.5073:

1. Lock legend skills to their respective legends, but include a handful of non-legend skills. Aside from racial skills and Antitoxin Spray, the revenant would get a smattering of skills that aren’t bound to a specific legend, and can be swapped into any legend’s bar freely. These would have to be generic and useful for all legends, such as simple resource maintenance.
   1. I recommend creating a skill type based on minor legends. The historical characters that aren’t quite big enough be a proper legend can each get a single skill named and themed after them. These could additionally provide an attribute bonus when slotted, sort of like a signet that doesn’t deactivate. Seriously, who wouldn’t want a “Channel Prof. Yakkington” skill on their bar?

I like this idea, and it makes a lot of sense. “Crest of Durmand”, “Crest of Havocbringer”, and “Crest of Silverwing” as skill names, for example.

Palador.2170:

I’m pretty sure that Revenants will be able to use mainhand sword, as well. We’ve seen Rytlock using one, and if we’re learning from him, it would make no sense for us to not know how to use one ourselves.

Also, there are few weapons more iconic and fitting to referencing legends than the sword.

we’ve also seen a revenant in a livestream running around with a sword and doing that misty slash :P

Roy Cronacher.1576:

morrolan.9608:

Roy Cronacher.1576:

Nike.2631:

Roy Cronacher.1576:

The skills on the right half of your bar are tied to the legend which you are currently invoking.

Lets see if I can phrase this unambiguously:

When I am invoking Bob the Mighty, will I have a Bob-themed pool of skills to choose from when filling out my right-hand tray, or does channeling Bob the Mighty give me an absolutely specific set of 5 skills without variation from any other Revenant invoking Bob?

I realize the answer may be different for buttons 6 and 0 than it is for buttons 7, 8, & 9.

That is not set in stone yet and something we are deciding still.

As noted earlier in the thread if there isn’t a choice it appears the revenant will feature less customisation than other classes and may be quite inflexible.

There options really are the legends you bring which offer unique playstyles and skills, I can see your point though.

I can see locking the Heal and Elite skill to the specific Legend. That makes absolute perfect sense to me, and would be a big part of deciding which Legends to have equipped.

Slots 7, 8, and 9, however… Locking those is huge step backwards from one of the core aspects of GW2, customization. Reducing my choices down from Weapon, Heal, Skill, Skill, Skill, Elite… to “Weapon, Pet, Pet” is way too much. It works great for you, the developers, for balancing and class design, but I don’t think in practice that would be enjoyable for a good chunk of the player-base. (Beyond the initial wow factor of new skills.)

If each legend had a small pool of skills to choose from, that would even be better. Even if it was just five skills, and you get to choose three. That would still offer a lot of customization.

It’s not just the existence of customization, I am sure there are lots of combination options with the different Legends. But it’s the “Feel” of customization and control over actually “Building” my character that is fundamental, as a player, to my enjoyment of the classes in GW2.

Like I said, Heal and Elite being tied to the Legend is perfectly fine, and makes total sense. And I am sure locking the 789 skills “Works” just fine. But it would certainly feel like the most limited class in the game, and would be a step backwards for GW2.

Some simple changes that sound better to me, as a player:

1. Previously mentioned 5 skills you get to choose three of.

2. Each Legend comes with 3 unique skills, and the class has a base set (much smaller than other classes) you can choose to use instead (maybe with effects that change for each legend). You HAVE the option of choice, or can stick with the more synergetic uniques.

3. Each Legend has access to one specific “Skill Type” from your base skills that it can use along with it’s Unique skills. (Ex: Signets, Shouts and Kits from other classes). This would give a full set of “alternate” skills you can choose to equip, but still have a strong limit on what can be equipped by locking out the other types.

Roy Cronacher.1576:

morrolan.9608:

Roy Cronacher.1576:

Nike.2631:

Roy Cronacher.1576:

The skills on the right half of your bar are tied to the legend which you are currently invoking.

Lets see if I can phrase this unambiguously:

When I am invoking Bob the Mighty, will I have a Bob-themed pool of skills to choose from when filling out my right-hand tray, or does channeling Bob the Mighty give me an absolutely specific set of 5 skills without variation from any other Revenant invoking Bob?

I realize the answer may be different for buttons 6 and 0 than it is for buttons 7, 8, & 9.

That is not set in stone yet and something we are deciding still.

As noted earlier in the thread if there isn’t a choice it appears the revenant will feature less customisation than other classes and may be quite inflexible.

There options really are the legends you bring which offer unique playstyles and skills, I can see your point though.

I wish to echo this idea. I really hope you are considering giving at least some options per legend. Don’t get me wrong, I love the legend idea, but they are right now seeming too much like pre-made builds per legend.

Perhaps something small. Of the 3 utility skills, give 5 options. That way you aren’t added a huge amount of skills, but my Jalis could still be slightly different than the next guy’s Jalis, which gives me a few customization options.

Palador.2170:

Gulesave.5073:

1. Lock legend skills to their respective legends, but include a handful of non-legend skills. Aside from racial skills and Antitoxin Spray, the revenant would get a smattering of skills that aren’t bound to a specific legend, and can be swapped into any legend’s bar freely. These would have to be generic and useful for all legends, such as simple resource maintenance.
   1. I recommend creating a skill type based on minor legends. The historical characters that aren’t quite big enough be a proper legend can each get a single skill named and themed after them. These could additionally provide an attribute bonus when slotted, sort of like a signet that doesn’t deactivate. Seriously, who wouldn’t want a “Channel Prof. Yakkington” skill on their bar?

I like this idea, and it makes a lot of sense. “Crest of Durmand”, “Crest of Havocbringer”, and “Crest of Silverwing” as skill names, for example.

Ooh, “Crest” has a good ring to it. Or…

GW1 had the storybooks you used to experience the stories of Gwen, Saul, and the others, so what if we stole that theme and turned that into a “Story” skill type? It could just be called “Razah’s Story,” for an example that’s easy and clear, or something like “Khilbron’s Intent” to work in a little more lore. Skill icons could be something like a book cover or scroll.

To emphasize the “Story” nature of them, they could all be chain skills, (instead of giving the attribute bonus I mentioned earlier). Each part of the chain when activating one of these skills would be vaguely themed after a “chapter” in the story. These multiple activations would also improve the versatility of the skills, which would help them a little toward fulfilling their purpose of improving build diversity.

Conncept.7638:

There is one thing still very confusing to me about this blog post.

It sounds like the Revenant may get less customization than other classes. As per usual your first five skills are determined by your weapon, but unlike other classes they said your second five skills are determined by your legend. Are they determined only by your legend? As in, you pick a legend and get the five skills that come with it? Or will there be a selectable loadout of skills within each legend? And if so how many per legend?

I take it as you get to choose your utility with the same variety as any other class and each legend will change the affect of the utility, meaning more customization. So you get 5 types/sets of 4 utility skills each. This gives you 20 skills. The number of skills is then multiplied by each combination of Legends. This is what I believe it meant.

Dondagora.9645:

Conncept.7638:

There is one thing still very confusing to me about this blog post.

It sounds like the Revenant may get less customization than other classes. As per usual your first five skills are determined by your weapon, but unlike other classes they said your second five skills are determined by your legend. Are they determined only by your legend? As in, you pick a legend and get the five skills that come with it? Or will there be a selectable loadout of skills within each legend? And if so how many per legend?

I take it as you get to choose your utility with the same variety as any other class and each legend will change the affect of the utility, meaning more customization. So you get 5 types/sets of 4 utility skills each. This gives you 20 skills. The number of skills is then multiplied by each combination of Legends. This is what I believe it meant.

Read the dev posts in this thread. It is confirmed to be a static swap per legend. No choice.

They did say it is not set in stone, yet.

Monkey Fritz.9052:

Dondagora.9645:

Conncept.7638:

There is one thing still very confusing to me about this blog post.

It sounds like the Revenant may get less customization than other classes. As per usual your first five skills are determined by your weapon, but unlike other classes they said your second five skills are determined by your legend. Are they determined only by your legend? As in, you pick a legend and get the five skills that come with it? Or will there be a selectable loadout of skills within each legend? And if so how many per legend?

I take it as you get to choose your utility with the same variety as any other class and each legend will change the affect of the utility, meaning more customization. So you get 5 types/sets of 4 utility skills each. This gives you 20 skills. The number of skills is then multiplied by each combination of Legends. This is what I believe it meant.

Read the dev posts in this thread. It is confirmed to be a static swap per legend. No choice.

They did say it is not set in stone, yet.

Yep, just read it, shoulda seen that earlier~

Dondagora.9645:

Monkey Fritz.9052:

Dondagora.9645:

Conncept.7638:

There is one thing still very confusing to me about this blog post.

It sounds like the Revenant may get less customization than other classes. As per usual your first five skills are determined by your weapon, but unlike other classes they said your second five skills are determined by your legend. Are they determined only by your legend? As in, you pick a legend and get the five skills that come with it? Or will there be a selectable loadout of skills within each legend? And if so how many per legend?

I take it as you get to choose your utility with the same variety as any other class and each legend will change the affect of the utility, meaning more customization. So you get 5 types/sets of 4 utility skills each. This gives you 20 skills. The number of skills is then multiplied by each combination of Legends. This is what I believe it meant.

Read the dev posts in this thread. It is confirmed to be a static swap per legend. No choice.

They did say it is not set in stone, yet.

Yep, just read it, shoulda seen that earlier~

Also, if you look closely at the skill icons, you’ll notice that the “misty white” coloration is a bit different between the legends. Jalis’s skills are more cyan, and Mallyx’s skills are more purple. Each legend has its own theme color. In contrast, the weapon skill bar features a neutral “misty white.”