Guild Wars 2

Why will less people be doing the ABML event when its nerfed.
What else will they do in the same time that provides more loot?
Even without multimap, ABML still provides more loot for the time taken to do the event than any other event in the game.

Cristalyan.5728:

Obtena.7952

Hey, people will say any kind of ridiculous thing if they think it gets Anet’s attention. Don’t want 1G MC’s? Call it communism … hope you get some McCarthy-istic justice going on.

Well, I never complained about the price of MC. In fact, the price is not important as long it is a result of a free market. I considered an issue the way the MC are handled to the players. Like a charity / subvention / social aid. An no other sources allowed.
Read carefully, please. I never contested the price of the MC but the strictly controlled way the MC enters the game.

Just a curiosity: In your past posts, you acted and voiced as a true defender of capitalism / democracy. How it comes that now you have no problems with communism?

I’m not sure if you are responding to me or not. I’m all for whatever gives me the ability to make money from impatient players. I don’t care what it’s called or if people want to give it some political slant. Like somehow that’s going to impact Anet’s thinking on this? That’s funny to me.

mauried.5608:

Why will less people be doing the ABML event when its nerfed.
What else will they do in the same time that provides more loot?
Even without multimap, ABML still provides more loot for the time taken to do the event than any other event in the game.

For some the fun may have been the organized chaos of making sure multiple maps succeed and then stay open so that people can move from map to map without a map completely closing. And without it they might not do it at all or as often.

Cristalyan.5728:

Wanze.8410

And they recently renewed their stance during the AMA that they dont have a problem with the current value of mystic coins, so I dont know why people expect them to change anything.

Sorry to correct you, but we are not talking here about ANet’s problem. This is a player’s problem. And, because it’s supposed ANet is very careful with the playerbase problems, we expect that problem to be fixed.

Remember that ANet had no problem with all the initial issues from HoT – and a lot of players left the game. Then, this started to be an ANet problem and the Game Director left the game too.

Again, nobody on this Forum creates topics about ANet problems. All the topics are about players problems.
And in this case, it seems that ANet simply refuses to fix this problem – the reason is the health of the economy and the TP – at least this is what they say. I wonder, how the growing number of discontent players regarding this aspect can help ANet. Because, at least for me, is clear that not the TP or the economy is the real reason of this stubborn attitude.
Anyone remembers resonating sliver? The price for this product went down from 75s to few coopers in the moment ANet decided to add more sources. Was the economy killed by this? The TP crashed? NO. So, adding new sources and allowing the price to drop is not a problem for the economy or for the TP.
Why in the case of MC this is a problem? And for who is this a problem?

The Coins are used for a huge number of endgame-related goals. All MMO developers walk a tightrope with the fall on one side being that they lose players due to not having enough long term goals to keep players occupied, and the fall on the other being they lose players who want rapid gratification. Even when a developer finds a sweet spot for the rope, they’re going to lose some players on either side. MMO’s have always been about keeping you playing, so they’re likely to err on the side of goals.

The fact is that neither you nor I know just how many people want those long term goals, or are happy to sell their coins to get gold for something else they want, nor how many are dropping the game due to being unwilling to wait for gratification. Since ANet is not acting, it’s possible they’re shooting themselves in the foot. They’ve done that before. It’s also possible they’ve made the best decision for them in the situation. They’ve done that before, too.

And, for the record, I’m not part of your “We.”

Cristalyan.5728:

Sorry to correct you, but we are not talking here about ANet’s problem. This is a player’s problem. And, because it’s supposed ANet is very careful with the playerbase problems, we expect that problem to be fixed.

Sorry to correct you, but I’m not part of your “we” either. Your problem for this situation is not my problem since I’m one of the sellers and high prices are to my advantage. Speak for yourself and for your own problems with mystic coin prices and don’t try to include the whole player base for something that has two sides, buying and selling.

IndigoSundown.5419

And, for the record, I’m not part of your “We.”

Just a flesh wound.3589

Sorry to correct you, but I’m not part of your “we” either

Sorry, but, in my opinion, you are wrong. Both.
Because English is not my language it is very hard for me to phrase my arguments, so, instead, I will use an example: The game Warhammer Online. I read that in the old good days this game had around 300k subscription per month. And millions of copies sold.
Then, problems started to appear. Not major problems, generating a mass exodus of the players. Common problems – only parts of the playerbase were lost due to each of them. That problems were never solved. And although none of them affected all the players, in the end the playerbase reached a level of 50k subscription per month. In that moment the servers were shut down and the game is now history.
You see the point? For 50k of the players the game had no problem. But they eventually realized that the problems the other players had were, in fact, their problems also.
The same with GW2. A part of the playerbase has a problem. If we don’t try to solve this situation, in the end, we will be all affected.

I’m surprised also of ANet attitude. Remember the HoT launch?
A lot of complains – about a lot of issues. The official attitude? These are not problems, of the game. The players are: not good (git gud – remember? ), lazy, casuals, full of imagination – inventing false problems, enemy of the game! Remember Collin’s words? The complainers are not interested in GW2 but instead they want to hurt the game! Every single reason was valid, but not what the players said – the game has problems.
Well, you know what happened – some players (how many only ANet knows) left the game. And the players problems suddenly started to be ANet problems. And the Game Director had problems. And he left the game. Nobody learned from this?

A part of the community having a problem means that the community has a problem. Stating that you are not affected is a statement that you are not part of the community.

Back to the topic: The price for MC is not the real problem. The price is the consequence of the real problem: The way the MC enters the game. And this is what – in my opinion – ANet should fix. And they should try to fix other problems too.
Before the problems affecting – each of them – parts of the playerbase will start to affect even the players considering themselves to be not affected.

And if ANet changes how MC enter the game in order to address one group of players’ problem with the game it negatively affects other players causing a problem with the game for them…so ANet should then change it back?

Cristalyan.5728:

IndigoSundown.5419

And, for the record, I’m not part of your “We.”

Just a flesh wound.3589

Sorry to correct you, but I’m not part of your “we” either

Sorry, but, in my opinion, you are wrong. Both.
Because English is not my language it is very hard for me to phrase my arguments, so, instead, I will use an example: The game Warhammer Online. I read that in the old good days this game had around 300k subscription per month. And millions of copies sold.
Then, problems started to appear. Not major problems, generating a mass exodus of the players. Common problems – only parts of the playerbase were lost due to each of them. That problems were never solved. And although none of them affected all the players, in the end the playerbase reached a level of 50k subscription per month. In that moment the servers were shut down and the game is now history.
You see the point? For 50k of the players the game had no problem. But they eventually realized that the problems the other players had were, in fact, their problems also.
The same with GW2. A part of the playerbase has a problem. If we don’t try to solve this situation, in the end, we will be all affected.

I’m surprised also of ANet attitude. Remember the HoT launch?
A lot of complains – about a lot of issues. The official attitude? These are not problems, of the game. The players are: not good (git gud – remember? ), lazy, casuals, full of imagination – inventing false problems, enemy of the game! Remember Collin’s words? The complainers are not interested in GW2 but instead they want to hurt the game! Every single reason was valid, but not what the players said – the game has problems.
Well, you know what happened – some players (how many only ANet knows) left the game. And the players problems suddenly started to be ANet problems. And the Game Director had problems. And he left the game. Nobody learned from this?

A part of the community having a problem means that the community has a problem. Stating that you are not affected is a statement that you are not part of the community.

Back to the topic: The price for MC is not the real problem. The price is the consequence of the real problem: The way the MC enters the game. And this is what – in my opinion – ANet should fix. And they should try to fix other problems too.
Before the problems affecting – each of them – parts of the playerbase will start to affect even the players considering themselves to be not affected.

First of all, you dont pay a monthly sub for GW2 so you cant really compare it with Warhammer. 2nd of all, I still wonder where you got your info from on how many players like or dislike the price of MCs. I would argue that the mayority of players is fine with a price of 1g BECAUSE THAT IS THE PRICE THEY ARE BUYING AND SELLING IT FOR.

Cristalyan.5728:

IndigoSundown.5419

And, for the record, I’m not part of your “We.”

Just a flesh wound.3589

Sorry to correct you, but I’m not part of your “we” either

Sorry, but, in my opinion, you are wrong. Both.
Because English is not my language it is very hard for me to phrase my arguments, so, instead, I will use an example: The game Warhammer Online. I read that in the old good days this game had around 300k subscription per month. And millions of copies sold.
Then, problems started to appear. Not major problems, generating a mass exodus of the players. Common problems – only parts of the playerbase were lost due to each of them. That problems were never solved. And although none of them affected all the players, in the end the playerbase reached a level of 50k subscription per month. In that moment the servers were shut down and the game is now history.
You see the point? For 50k of the players the game had no problem. But they eventually realized that the problems the other players had were, in fact, their problems also.
The same with GW2. A part of the playerbase has a problem. If we don’t try to solve this situation, in the end, we will be all affected.

I’m surprised also of ANet attitude. Remember the HoT launch?
A lot of complains – about a lot of issues. The official attitude? These are not problems, of the game. The players are: not good (git gud – remember? ), lazy, casuals, full of imagination – inventing false problems, enemy of the game! Remember Collin’s words? The complainers are not interested in GW2 but instead they want to hurt the game! Every single reason was valid, but not what the players said – the game has problems.
Well, you know what happened – some players (how many only ANet knows) left the game. And the players problems suddenly started to be ANet problems. And the Game Director had problems. And he left the game. Nobody learned from this?

A part of the community having a problem means that the community has a problem. Stating that you are not affected is a statement that you are not part of the community.

Back to the topic: The price for MC is not the real problem. The price is the consequence of the real problem: The way the MC enters the game. And this is what – in my opinion – ANet should fix. And they should try to fix other problems too.
Before the problems affecting – each of them – parts of the playerbase will start to affect even the players considering themselves to be not affected.

I’m definitely not wrong about my not being part of the “we” that wants the MC price to be manipulated in favor of those who are impatient. I’m fine with the status quo.

I’m definitely not wrong about neither you nor I knowing how large the groups are that want (or don’t want) ANet to manipulate the price. Neither of us has a pipeline into the minds of every player.

Why don’t I care what my fellow players want? I do, to a point. However, I also know that when there are people who want the opposite of what other people want, it’s inevitable there will be someone who walks a way unhappy. I’m more likely to come down on the side of those who are willing to be patient than those who aren’t.

Wanze.8410:

I would argue that the mayority of players is fine with a price of 1g BECAUSE THAT IS THE PRICE THEY ARE BUYING AND SELLING IT FOR.

I’m pretty sure that the majority of players do not, in fact, buy MC’s at that price. If i’m wrong, and the number of players is indeed that small, we have a really big population problem.

Astralporing.1957:

Wanze.8410:

I would argue that the mayority of players is fine with a price of 1g BECAUSE THAT IS THE PRICE THEY ARE BUYING AND SELLING IT FOR.

I’m pretty sure that the majority of players do not, in fact, buy MC’s at that price. If i’m wrong, and the number of players is indeed that small, we have a really big population problem.

Equilibrium price isn’t necessarily the price where everyone is happy with the price. There just has to be enough players happy with the price to keep it there. Which is why if you want the price to go lower, then you need to not buy coins until they are as cheap you think they are worth.

Astralporing.1957:

Wanze.8410:

I would argue that the mayority of players is fine with a price of 1g BECAUSE THAT IS THE PRICE THEY ARE BUYING AND SELLING IT FOR.

I’m pretty sure that the majority of players do not, in fact, buy MC’s at that price. If i’m wrong, and the number of players is indeed that small, we have a really big population problem.

And thats not what I said. I said buying and selling. I didnt talk about players that neither buy or sell.

The mayority of new buy orders will be posted above 85s and most new listings wont be above 1.15g.

Seera.5916:

Astralporing.1957:

Wanze.8410:

I would argue that the mayority of players is fine with a price of 1g BECAUSE THAT IS THE PRICE THEY ARE BUYING AND SELLING IT FOR.

I’m pretty sure that the majority of players do not, in fact, buy MC’s at that price. If i’m wrong, and the number of players is indeed that small, we have a really big population problem.

Equilibrium price isn’t necessarily the price where everyone is happy with the price. There just has to be enough players happy with the price to keep it there. Which is why if you want the price to go lower, then you need to not buy coins until they are as cheap you think they are worth.

You only can blame those players that think mystic coins are overvalued and dont sell their own coins.

If all the players who think MCs should only cost 50s, would fill buy orders with their coins until the price goes down to that price. If only a small part of the player base is willing to pay higher prices, it should be easy for those that think its overvalued to fill that demand and once it is, they can start buying MCs from those, whose demand is filled.

Wanze.8410:

Seera.5916:

Astralporing.1957:

Wanze.8410:

I would argue that the mayority of players is fine with a price of 1g BECAUSE THAT IS THE PRICE THEY ARE BUYING AND SELLING IT FOR.

I’m pretty sure that the majority of players do not, in fact, buy MC’s at that price. If i’m wrong, and the number of players is indeed that small, we have a really big population problem.

Equilibrium price isn’t necessarily the price where everyone is happy with the price. There just has to be enough players happy with the price to keep it there. Which is why if you want the price to go lower, then you need to not buy coins until they are as cheap you think they are worth.

You only can blame those players that think mystic coins are overvalued and dont sell their own coins.

If all the players who think MCs should only cost 50s, would fill buy orders with their coins until the price goes down to that price. If only a small part of the player base is willing to pay higher prices, it should be easy for those that think its overvalued to fill that demand and once it is, they can start buying MCs from those, whose demand is filled.

Its not quite that simple. Take player A, an average player in GW2, who thinks MC should cost 50s each. He could put up his couple hundred MC he has saved up max and fill out a tiny fraction of the buy orders yea. But now he has no MC at all. If he wants to get them back he has lost money now since he will be paying more for new ones than what he gained from selling his. The only way he can break even is if thousands, or possibly even tens of thousands, of other players do the same thing as he did. Organizing that many people to sell their MC just to bring the price down just isn’t realistic, it turns into a massive version of the prisoner’s dilema except instead of prison and being released we are dealing with the price of MC (whether each user makes enough gold to get the MC they sold back for instance, and whether collectively they can lower the price).

However, assuming the near impossibility that the above happens, what will statistically happen is that most of those MC that were sold will end up in the hands of the people who are hoarding them, or starting new hoards. So now, even if the price temporarily went down to 50s like Player A wanted, an even larger supply than ever of MC would be controlled by an even smaller amount of players than ever. So they would have an even easier time controlling the market rate for MC and it could go even higher than it currently is incredibly quickly. And Player A, along with the thousands+ other players that magically cooperated with them, will now be worse off for it. There is no benefit to selling your own MC in a futile attempt to bring the price down. Absolutely none. But there are plenty of downsides to it if your goal is just to bring the price of MC down. This is a lose only outcome for the players you are talking about.

OriOri.8724:

Wanze.8410:

Seera.5916:

Astralporing.1957:

Wanze.8410:

I would argue that the mayority of players is fine with a price of 1g BECAUSE THAT IS THE PRICE THEY ARE BUYING AND SELLING IT FOR.

I’m pretty sure that the majority of players do not, in fact, buy MC’s at that price. If i’m wrong, and the number of players is indeed that small, we have a really big population problem.

Equilibrium price isn’t necessarily the price where everyone is happy with the price. There just has to be enough players happy with the price to keep it there. Which is why if you want the price to go lower, then you need to not buy coins until they are as cheap you think they are worth.

You only can blame those players that think mystic coins are overvalued and dont sell their own coins.

If all the players who think MCs should only cost 50s, would fill buy orders with their coins until the price goes down to that price. If only a small part of the player base is willing to pay higher prices, it should be easy for those that think its overvalued to fill that demand and once it is, they can start buying MCs from those, whose demand is filled.

Its not quite that simple. Take player A, an average player in GW2, who thinks MC should cost 50s each. He could put up his couple hundred MC he has saved up max and fill out a tiny fraction of the buy orders yea. But now he has no MC at all. If he wants to get them back he has lost money now since he will be paying more for new ones than what he gained from selling his. The only way he can break even is if thousands, or possibly even tens of thousands, of other players do the same thing as he did. Organizing that many people to sell their MC just to bring the price down just isn’t realistic, it turns into a massive version of the prisoner’s dilema except instead of prison and being released we are dealing with the price of MC (whether each user makes enough gold to get the MC they sold back for instance, and whether collectively they can lower the price).

However, assuming the near impossibility that the above happens, what will statistically happen is that most of those MC that were sold will end up in the hands of the people who are hoarding them, or starting new hoards. So now, even if the price temporarily went down to 50s like Player A wanted, an even larger supply than ever of MC would be controlled by an even smaller amount of players than ever. So they would have an even easier time controlling the market rate for MC and it could go even higher than it currently is incredibly quickly. And Player A, along with the thousands+ other players that magically cooperated with them, will now be worse off for it. There is no benefit to selling your own MC in a futile attempt to bring the price down. Absolutely none. But there are plenty of downsides to it if your goal is just to bring the price of MC down. This is a lose only outcome for the players you are talking about.

Conversely, he can get others to not buy MC’s until such time as the price is lower. And there’s no rule that states you can only sell your Mystic Coins if you sell them all. Let’s be realistic here, most players would not sell off 100% of their Mystic Coins unless they were sure they wouldn’t want anything that requires them for a good long while or are willing to buy them back at potentially a loss.

If he finds that hard to do, then it may just be something that he has to accept that many other players are fine with.

Wanze.8410:

Seera.5916:

Astralporing.1957:

Wanze.8410:

I would argue that the mayority of players is fine with a price of 1g BECAUSE THAT IS THE PRICE THEY ARE BUYING AND SELLING IT FOR.

I’m pretty sure that the majority of players do not, in fact, buy MC’s at that price. If i’m wrong, and the number of players is indeed that small, we have a really big population problem.

Equilibrium price isn’t necessarily the price where everyone is happy with the price. There just has to be enough players happy with the price to keep it there. Which is why if you want the price to go lower, then you need to not buy coins until they are as cheap you think they are worth.

You only can blame those players that think mystic coins are overvalued and dont sell their own coins.

If all the players who think MCs should only cost 50s, would fill buy orders with their coins until the price goes down to that price. If only a small part of the player base is willing to pay higher prices, it should be easy for those that think its overvalued to fill that demand and once it is, they can start buying MCs from those, whose demand is filled.

Buyers and sellers come into the equation with equilibrium prices. Given the pace of Mystic Coin generation by an individual player, it may be easier to talk others into not buying more instead of selling off unused coins. Which is why I suggested to mess with the buyer side of the equation.

Whats the rationale for thinking that MCs should cost 50s?
Thinking thats something should cost “what I think it should cost” is not how any economy works.

mauried.5608:

Whats the rationale for thinking that MCs should cost 50s?
Thinking thats something should cost “what I think it should cost” is not how any economy works.

Everyone has a price that they think things should cost. It’s called the maximum price we’ll pay to buy something or the minimum price we’re willing to sell things at.

Sometimes an item’s equilibrium price falls basically at that price. Sometimes it’s higher and sometimes it’s lower. Right now for some, the equilibrium price for mystic coins is too high. It just happens to have the most people who are happy spending that price (and that most may not be majority. Some may want it higher and some may want it lower – remember buyers AND sellers have prices they want things to be at).

Seera.5916:

Which is why if you want the price to go lower, then you need to not buy coins until they are as cheap you think they are worth.

Using this option would mean that players are making an effort and perhaps a minor sacrifice. I much prefer that option because it would be community derived without asking for the game’s “parents” to step in and “fix” things.

The problem with this option, of course, is that it would take a lot of effort to organize a sufficiently large boycott to make a difference. A spontaneous boycott is unlikely, I believe. The call for a reduction comes from impatience and desire for rapid gratification. After all, if the complainers were patient, they could just wait and eventually get all the coins they need for free.

MMO’s are marathons, but some players seem to want to turn this one into a sprint.

Wanze.8410:

I dont think MC can be treated as a time-gated material for legendary crafting on an individual basis because you can buy them from the TP.

They aren’t time gated on a micro/individual basis. They’re time gated on a macro/population basis, which is important from a scarcity perspective. They ensure that the top end rewards can only enter the economy so fast and thus remain scarce and valuable.

That time gating gives them very important economic properties (they’re a negative beta good as far as the rest of the economy is concerned) which some of these recipes take advantage of.

They aren’t so much to slow down you from getting a legendary, but to slow down everyone else, on average, so you only see so many legendaries or other high end skins in the game and thus when you get yours it still feels awesome and exclusive and not that you’re just catching up with everyone else.

Wanze.8410:

And for legendary crafting, we should also consider the other faucets for mystic clovers (reward tracks, chest of legendary crafting materials) as a “source” of mystic coins.

Absolutely. The lowered demand for Mystic Coins (and the burden of stockpiling them for a legendary) is a big deal. It makes me a lot less concerned about the need to stockpile coins for a traditional legendary. However, the 2nd generation legendaries do demand a pretty onerous amount of Mystic Coins, and the price impact of that is at least within smelling distance of a range I’d consider unhealthy.

Basically, the higher the Mystic Coin cost, in the aggregate, the less time relatively people are having to spend farming / acquiring materials / otherwise playing the game, and the more they are having to spend just waiting for coins to be generated. It is a canary of sorts, if the I/O is balanced right.

Since you get 20 Mystic Coins every 28 days by simply logging in, it takes about 11 months to get the Mystic Coins required to craft a Legendary. To amass the other required items takes about the same amount of time. I really don’t see what the problem is. You can get enough Mystic Coins for free to craft the Legendary in the amount of time it would take anyway to get the rest of the items.

Wanze.8410:

Astralporing.1957:

Wanze.8410:

I would argue that the mayority of players is fine with a price of 1g BECAUSE THAT IS THE PRICE THEY ARE BUYING AND SELLING IT FOR.

I’m pretty sure that the majority of players do not, in fact, buy MC’s at that price. If i’m wrong, and the number of players is indeed that small, we have a really big population problem.

And thats not what I said. I said buying and selling. I didnt talk about players that neither buy or sell.

The mayority of new buy orders will be posted above 85s and most new listings wont be above 1.15g.

Sure, but that’s not a majority of players. Merely a majority of players that are buying and selling.

As a side matter, the fact that people are buying/selling at a certain price does not mean they are fine with it. Merely, that they can stomach it at the moment.

SRoode.7318:

Since you get 20 Mystic Coins every 28 days by simply logging in, it takes about 11 months to get the Mystic Coins required to craft a Legendary. To amass the other required items takes about the same amount of time.

Only if you don’t do much beyond just logging in and out.
Remember, that by the time ascended gear got introduced (3 months after launch), there were already people with legendaries made. a year after launch i have personally knew more than one person that had several legendaries.
And getting the materials for legendaries now is easier than it was then.
Except for MC’s, that is.

Astralporing.1957:

Remember, that by the time ascended gear got introduced (3 months after launch), there were already people with legendaries made. a year after launch i have personally knew more than one person that had several legendaries.
And getting the materials for legendaries now is easier than it was then.
Except for MC’s, that is.

Yeah. A big difference between now and then is the demographics of the player base – back when the game launched there were tons of relatively low attachment casual players cranking out mystic coins and dumping them on the economy. Now the population is a lot more mature and dominated by more high attachment, high playtime players.

Coins were a lot more abundant when there were a lot more casual players around that weren’t realistically in the market for a legendary to support each high commitment gamer working on their 6th.

Ensign.2189:

Wanze.8410:

I dont think MC can be treated as a time-gated material for legendary crafting on an individual basis because you can buy them from the TP.

They aren’t time gated on a micro/individual basis. They’re time gated on a macro/population basis, which is important from a scarcity perspective. They ensure that the top end rewards can only enter the economy so fast and thus remain scarce and valuable.

That time gating gives them very important economic properties (they’re a negative beta good as far as the rest of the economy is concerned) which some of these recipes take advantage of.

They aren’t so much to slow down you from getting a legendary, but to slow down everyone else, on average, so you only see so many legendaries or other high end skins in the game and thus when you get yours it still feels awesome and exclusive and not that you’re just catching up with everyone else.

Wanze.8410:

And for legendary crafting, we should also consider the other faucets for mystic clovers (reward tracks, chest of legendary crafting materials) as a “source” of mystic coins.

Absolutely. The lowered demand for Mystic Coins (and the burden of stockpiling them for a legendary) is a big deal. It makes me a lot less concerned about the need to stockpile coins for a traditional legendary. However, the 2nd generation legendaries do demand a pretty onerous amount of Mystic Coins, and the price impact of that is at least within smelling distance of a range I’d consider unhealthy.

Basically, the higher the Mystic Coin cost, in the aggregate, the less time relatively people are having to spend farming / acquiring materials / otherwise playing the game, and the more they are having to spend just waiting for coins to be generated. It is a canary of sorts, if the I/O is balanced right.

Very good explanation of mystic coins and the role they play in the market.