Guild Wars 2

Title is too short to capture the thread but in a nutshell the Necro is not looking good for the rumored challenging group content in HoT. Really, if many of the current issues aren’t fixed before HoT i am not looking forward to being ostracized any more than we are today. What bothers me most is the trend seems to be continuing with the reaper. The shouts look dismal compared to Ele’s and yes i know it isn’t final but i don’t hold out much hope because the fundamental flaws that exist today have persisted for 3 years with no end in sight. Is Necro totally useless, nope but every other class has strengths we cannot match up to nor do we bring anything to a situation another class can’t do better.

The fact is they are sticking to this slow lumbering Hammer films monster vision which makes us a survivor but in the end it isn’t enough to justify being needed in most scenarios. The GS skills shown in the Reaper preview may look good on paper damage wise but don’t mean squat if by the time you land the skill your opponent is logged out eating a bowl of cheerios.

Vlad Morbius.1759:

Title is too short to capture the thread but in a nutshell the Necro is not looking good for the rumored challenging group content in HoT. Really, if many of the current issues aren’t fixed before HoT i am not looking forward to being ostracized any more than we are today. What bothers me most is the trend seems to be continuing with the reaper. The shouts look dismal compared to Ele’s and yes i know it isn’t final but i don’t hold out much hope because the fundamental flaws that exist today have persisted for 3 years with no end in sight. Is Necro totally useless, nope but every other class has strengths we cannot match up to nor do we bring anything to a situation another class can’t do better.

The fact is they are sticking to this slow lumbering Hammer films monster vision which makes us a survivor but in the end it isn’t enough to justify being needed in most scenarios. The GS skills shown in the Reaper preview may look good on paper damage wise but don’t mean squat if by the time you land the skill your opponent is logged out eating a bowl of cheerios.

Im unsure how often npcs log out of game and eat cheerios

Linken.6345:

Im unsure how often npcs log out of game and eat cheerios

A+ comment.

To contribute, the meta for pve is cheesy and really should be changing so I wouldn’t worry to much. Since you did bring PvP into this I will say that it should also be fine there, with good teammates and smart actions you should be able to set up for some massive blows. However of course I can’t be sure until it comes out, and that also means you can’t be sure. So relax, a beta will probably happen and then you can judge it, don’t overreact though if it is the beta like revs did, it’s a beta. If you want to see the Necro do well you want to participate when they beta test these elite specs and give back constructive criticism.

Mind you, Quickness is a thing and the more slow casting a skill is, the greater effect you net from having it. While Necro might not be able to achieve lots of quickness itself, if we’re looking at a PvE scenario, that just makes such support all the more useful and desired.

Vlad Morbius.1759:

Title is too short to capture the thread but in a nutshell the Necro is not looking good for the rumored challenging group content in HoT.

You mean the content that has not been revealed in any way shape or form?

Linken.6345:

Im unsure how often npcs log out of game and eat cheerios

Sad thing is you’re right, we will likely only do well against a stationary npc that won’t move when we take forever to wind up and slam down the GS lol.

I get that we don’t know where we will be I do, but one look at the Reaper Poi and it isn’t hard to see that the greatsword movements are slow and cumbersome and as such are telegraphed far enough in advance to give a player every opportunity to avoid them, especially considering the nerf to chill. Yes I know we haven’t beta tested it and yes I know a lot can change but many existing issues today haven’t been addressed and frankly it doesn’t give me hope they will be. Nobody at Anet even acknowledges there are issues, just spend 5 minutes trying to find feedback from Anet in the Necromancer forums.

I’d like nothing better than to beta the class I plan to play if only for some insight and potential to give some feedback because frankly if we don’t it could launch with horrid balance issues which could stay forever, just look at minion AI.

I encourage Anet to set the next beta so we can pick our class and specialization to get an early jump on correcting any flaws.

The speed of the attack doesn’t mean anything. The issue is DPS. We don’t have finalized numbers to comment on the actual DPS at all so it’s impossible to say how things will work out.

That said, the Necromancer is the least functional class in PvE currently. It has the lowest damage, least utility, and the few mechanics it does have are done better by other classes in a PvE setting. This means the amount of improvement the class needs to see in the expansions release to be relevant is quick extreme. So extreme in fact that I’d argue it’s not possible for the Reaper to solve all its problems and we’ve seen nothing to indicate the base class will change between now and release.

It seems unlikely they will ever fix necro because doing so would mean admitting they were wrong and reworking DS from the ground up.

Speed is very important if you don’t have a way to stop CC or catch up to your target. That said, everything else fundamentally wrong isn’t likely to be fixed. Also as many have stated already without a dev who is dedicated to playing this class being the one working on the balance we will likely never see the changes needed prior to HoT. I’m not taking anything away from Robert Gee but if your passion isn’t this class and it isn’t something you play continuously how can you ever hope to recognize and resolve all the issues.
It will only get worse if they follow through with more difficult content that every other class handles better.

Maybe my memory sucks, but I remember reaper attacking pretty fast and gs being slow. You don’t have to use the gs outside of reaper ya know.

CureForLiving.5360:

Vlad Morbius.1759:

Title is too short to capture the thread but in a nutshell the Necro is not looking good for the rumored challenging group content in HoT.

You mean the content that has not been revealed in any way shape or form?

Pretty much this.

I did notice that Necromancers Reaper specialization Greatsword skill 2, has insta-recharge when hitting foes below 50% HP or downed…

Azure.8670:

Maybe my memory sucks, but I remember reaper attacking pretty fast and gs being slow. You don’t have to use the gs outside of reaper ya know.

Sword was slower than the Reaper Shroud attack, but it’s all relative. A thief hitting for 50 every half a second is the same as a Necro hitting for 200 every 2 seconds. The problem is the thief is hitting for 50 and the necro is hitting for 50. That’s why it’s too early to complain about actual numbers unless we’re talking about the Necromancer as opposed to the Reaper.

Atherakhia.4086:

Azure.8670:

Maybe my memory sucks, but I remember reaper attacking pretty fast and gs being slow. You don’t have to use the gs outside of reaper ya know.

Sword was slower than the Reaper Shroud attack, but it’s all relative. A thief hitting for 50 every half a second is the same as a Necro hitting for 200 every 2 seconds. The problem is the thief is hitting for 50 and the necro is hitting for 50. That’s why it’s too early to complain about actual numbers unless we’re talking about the Necromancer as opposed to the Reaper.

Those aren’t equal at all in GW2. Here is a common scenario over 4s of play:

1. thief hits for 50, thief hits for 50, target dodges, thief hits for 50, thief hits for 50, target blocks, target blocks, thief hits for 50.

total of 250 dmg over 4s

2. target dodges, target blocks

total of 0 damage over 4s

Target didn’t even have to use both his blocks against the reaper

Slow attacks have no place in a game with active defenses like GW2 because they disproportionately punish slow attacks over fast attackers.

I was thinking the exact same thing about my own Necro when I logged in, traited for Reaper and did some HoT content.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Atherakhia.4086:

Azure.8670:

Maybe my memory sucks, but I remember reaper attacking pretty fast and gs being slow. You don’t have to use the gs outside of reaper ya know.

Sword was slower than the Reaper Shroud attack, but it’s all relative. A thief hitting for 50 every half a second is the same as a Necro hitting for 200 every 2 seconds. The problem is the thief is hitting for 50 and the necro is hitting for 50. That’s why it’s too early to complain about actual numbers unless we’re talking about the Necromancer as opposed to the Reaper.

Those aren’t equal at all in GW2. Here is a common scenario over 4s of play:

1. thief hits for 50, thief hits for 50, target dodges, thief hits for 50, thief hits for 50, target blocks, target blocks, thief hits for 50.

total of 250 dmg over 4s

2. target dodges, target blocks

total of 0 damage over 4s

Target didn’t even have to use both his blocks against the reaper

Slow attacks have no place in a game with active defenses like GW2 because they disproportionately punish slow attacks over fast attackers.

This is a PvE thread…

And for WvW/PvP, the attacks weren’t much slower than the slow weapons for other classes that get plenty of play. Hammers for Warriors and Guardians for example. Only one attack feels out of place, and that’s still only a little high in comparison.

Atherakhia.4086:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Atherakhia.4086:

Azure.8670:

Maybe my memory sucks, but I remember reaper attacking pretty fast and gs being slow. You don’t have to use the gs outside of reaper ya know.

Sword was slower than the Reaper Shroud attack, but it’s all relative. A thief hitting for 50 every half a second is the same as a Necro hitting for 200 every 2 seconds. The problem is the thief is hitting for 50 and the necro is hitting for 50. That’s why it’s too early to complain about actual numbers unless we’re talking about the Necromancer as opposed to the Reaper.

Those aren’t equal at all in GW2. Here is a common scenario over 4s of play:

1. thief hits for 50, thief hits for 50, target dodges, thief hits for 50, thief hits for 50, target blocks, target blocks, thief hits for 50.

total of 250 dmg over 4s

2. target dodges, target blocks

total of 0 damage over 4s

Target didn’t even have to use both his blocks against the reaper

Slow attacks have no place in a game with active defenses like GW2 because they disproportionately punish slow attacks over fast attackers.

This is a PvE thread…

And for WvW/PvP, the attacks weren’t much slower than the slow weapons for other classes that get plenty of play. Hammers for Warriors and Guardians for example. Only one attack feels out of place, and that’s still only a little high in comparison.

Yeah cause everyone runs a hammer warrior/guard in PvE…. Thanks for proving me point for me though.

Also I was assuming that enemies in the new challenging content would do things like dodge and block, thus the challenging part. Won’t be very challenging if they just stand there and eat the damage.

There will be no new challenging content. I honestly can’t believe you guys fell for that line. There’s absolutely no way GW2 can make challenging content that isn’t a zerg, 1 hit ko fest given their class design. But go on, keep that dream alive.

As for your other point… the reason people don’t run hammer warrior or guard in PvE has absolutely nothing to do with attack speed. It has 100% to do with DPS. PvE content will never get to the point where the highest DPS weapon isn’t the right weapon for the job unless the encounter is specifically designed around some obscure niche. This is especially true in GW2. If a hammer had higher DPS on paper it would be used.

you do realize hundred blade has a total of 3 1/2 seconds cast time…and it’s one of the most used skills in PvE..so is meteor shower..

and you are not forced to use shouts, you can use wells with greatsword for maximum damage sweetness.

Ok I need to get some facts straight quickly for some necro fans over here :

• Necro is NOT at the bottom of the DPS scale for dungeon speed clearing. Damage is actually on par with rangers and lower than warriors.
• Necro is not appreciated because what they bring to a group (boon control, vuln and condi cleanse) is done better by other classes.
• The reaper GS can hit while you move and has a chill on 3rd AA chain. I fail to see why hitting moving targets is impossible
• As other said, the numbers are not final and betas will help the dev adjust them
• If you look beyond the speed clear meta which is a niche activity that is practiced by a tiny minority of players, you’ll realise that a necro has lots of strengths and is very enjoyable to play (e.g : the necro are extremely efficient in the silverwastes).

Can the necro community stop having this inferiority complex that is unjustified and boring in the long run.

Atherakhia.4086:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

Atherakhia.4086:

Azure.8670:

Maybe my memory sucks, but I remember reaper attacking pretty fast and gs being slow. You don’t have to use the gs outside of reaper ya know.

Sword was slower than the Reaper Shroud attack, but it’s all relative. A thief hitting for 50 every half a second is the same as a Necro hitting for 200 every 2 seconds. The problem is the thief is hitting for 50 and the necro is hitting for 50. That’s why it’s too early to complain about actual numbers unless we’re talking about the Necromancer as opposed to the Reaper.

Those aren’t equal at all in GW2. Here is a common scenario over 4s of play:

1. thief hits for 50, thief hits for 50, target dodges, thief hits for 50, thief hits for 50, target blocks, target blocks, thief hits for 50.

total of 250 dmg over 4s

2. target dodges, target blocks

total of 0 damage over 4s

Target didn’t even have to use both his blocks against the reaper

Slow attacks have no place in a game with active defenses like GW2 because they disproportionately punish slow attacks over fast attackers.

This is a PvE thread…

And for WvW/PvP, the attacks weren’t much slower than the slow weapons for other classes that get plenty of play. Hammers for Warriors and Guardians for example. Only one attack feels out of place, and that’s still only a little high in comparison.

Only…that Hammer hard-CC’s if it ever hits. Multiple knockdowns. While Reaper GS gets the heavily nerfed chill -doesn’t impact movement skills anymore (meaning Reaper cannot follow up).

VodCom.6924:

Ok I need to get some facts straight quickly for some necro fans over here :

• Necro is NOT at the bottom of the DPS scale for dungeon speed clearing. Damage is actually on par with rangers and lower than warriors.
• Necro is not appreciated because what they bring to a group (boon control, vuln and condi cleanse) is done better by other classes.
• The reaper GS can hit while you move and has a chill on 3rd AA chain. I fail to see why hitting moving targets is impossible
• As other said, the numbers are not final and betas will help the dev adjust them
• If you look beyond the speed clear meta which is a niche activity that is practiced by a tiny minority of players, you’ll realise that a necro has lots of strengths and is very enjoyable to play (e.g : the necro are extremely efficient in the silverwastes).

Can the necro community stop having this inferiority complex that is unjustified and boring in the long run.

- I’d love to see your numbers on this
- not only is it done better it is also not needed in PvE. the one thing we do very well is transfer conditions and strip boons. Well enemies apply 10s boons every 5s while out boon strips have 50s CDs… worthless. Enemies purge conditions almost continuously while our transfers have long CD’s.
- clearly you’ve never tried to catch someone with a Necro. We have 0 mobility. A thief/mesmer/warrior/ele/ranger could be halfway across a map before we even ran a single body length, good luck landing a melee chill with a slow swinging attack lol
- being fun to play has pretty much nothing to do with this discussion. platformers are fun to play too and you do 0 damage in them.

We offer no finishers, no helpful fields, our new team support gives a wonderful 30 damage/healing per attack… and when we cause our team to fail due to lack of support and damage we can at least teleport their bodies onto us to show them we are the most likely reason they died.

VodCom.6924:

• Necro is not appreciated because what they bring to a group (boon control, vuln and condi cleanse) is done better by other classes.

This, plus the fact that enemies rarely use boons (when they do, it’s spammed on 3-5 second cooldowns or something like Swiftness where the stack & smack meta doesn’t care two bits about. Sadly, no exaggerations here) or conditions means the Necro’s two biggest strengths are completely irrelevant. It’s honestly the biggest problem with the Necro: they’re very good at doing irrelevant things.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

- I’d love to see your numbers on this
- not only is it done better it is also not needed in PvE. the one thing we do very well is transfer conditions and strip boons. Well enemies apply 10s boons every 5s while out boon strips have 50s CDs… worthless. Enemies purge conditions almost continuously while our transfers have long CD’s.
- clearly you’ve never tried to catch someone with a Necro. We have 0 mobility. A thief/mesmer/warrior/ele/ranger could be halfway across a map before we even ran a single body length, good luck landing a melee chill with a slow swinging attack lol
- being fun to play has pretty much nothing to do with this discussion. platformers are fun to play too and you do 0 damage in them.

We offer no finishers, no helpful fields, our new team support gives a wonderful 30 damage/healing per attack… and when we cause our team to fail due to lack of support and damage we can at least teleport their bodies onto us to show them we are the most likely reason they died.

I’m a pve player so my comment about hitting a target is for PvE. For PvP, mobility is a long lasting problem and HoT is NOT worsening the problem. Also keep in mind that cele signet necros are becoming a thing since the 23/06 update and that catching their target is not the biggest problem they face. Their biggest problem is their inability to escape a poorly executed gank (since no invuln for necros).

I don’t have the numbers though if you browse the dungeon subforum you’ll get an idea of the actual dps order (hint : mesmer and guards are at the bottom and not necros). And with the reaper upgrade, the necromancer will climb up the dps ladder and be a better blind field provider than the thief (i.e better team support).

Don’t even consider vampiric aura as group support for dungeon. Any form of support through healing is worthless in speed clear. The support necro bring in speed clear is vulnerability application (ele can give you 25 stack only for a few seconds) and boon control.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

VodCom.6924:

Ok I need to get some facts straight quickly for some necro fans over here :

• Necro is NOT at the bottom of the DPS scale for dungeon speed clearing. Damage is actually on par with rangers and lower than warriors.
• Necro is not appreciated because what they bring to a group (boon control, vuln and condi cleanse) is done better by other classes.
• The reaper GS can hit while you move and has a chill on 3rd AA chain. I fail to see why hitting moving targets is impossible
• As other said, the numbers are not final and betas will help the dev adjust them
• If you look beyond the speed clear meta which is a niche activity that is practiced by a tiny minority of players, you’ll realise that a necro has lots of strengths and is very enjoyable to play (e.g : the necro are extremely efficient in the silverwastes).

Can the necro community stop having this inferiority complex that is unjustified and boring in the long run.

- I’d love to see your numbers on this
- not only is it done better it is also not needed in PvE. the one thing we do very well is transfer conditions and strip boons. Well enemies apply 10s boons every 5s while out boon strips have 50s CDs… worthless. Enemies purge conditions almost continuously while our transfers have long CD’s.
- clearly you’ve never tried to catch someone with a Necro. We have 0 mobility. A thief/mesmer/warrior/ele/ranger could be halfway across a map before we even ran a single body length, good luck landing a melee chill with a slow swinging attack lol
- being fun to play has pretty much nothing to do with this discussion. platformers are fun to play too and you do 0 damage in them.

We offer no finishers, no helpful fields, our new team support gives a wonderful 30 damage/healing per attack… and when we cause our team to fail due to lack of support and damage we can at least teleport their bodies onto us to show them we are the most likely reason they died.

I run a frontline dps/support hybrid necro in the Silverwastes (the only PvE I do outside of the occasional world boss) and WvWvW, and I am really, really effective in groups. Consider, if you will, the following:

• 3k-4k AoE Healing on Shroud 4 plus revive and teleporting downed allies out of danger.
  *1.5k-2k AoE Healing upon Exiting Shroud
• Increased revive speed plus AoE Heal and Light Field on Revive
• Consistent 3k-4k autoattacks in Death Shroud
• Pulsing AoE Vuln and Vuln on AutoAttack in Death Shroud
• Not necessarily a support or dps feature, but I have a 7k heal on my utility bar in addition to my slotted heal skill, which heals for 4.6k + additional lifesteal
• I don’t even run Vampiric Aura (I get more use out of Banshee’s Wail)
• Above numbers achieved with all Exotic Gear

Necro is far from useless in PvE and WvWvW, and can provide plenty of support as is.

Honestly though, I don’t really care about the top tier meta or Dungeon Speed Clearing. Necromancer is fun for me, so I play it. If it’s not fun for you, then there’s plenty of other classes.

Vlad Morbius.1759:

i don’t hold out much hope because the fundamental flaws that exist today have persisted for 3 years with no end in sight.

This is pretty much my opinion

MattyP.6954:

…
Necro is far from useless in PvE and WvWvW, and can provide plenty of support as is.

Honestly though, I don’t really care about the top tier meta or Dungeon Speed Clearing. Necromancer is fun for me, so I play it. If it’s not fun for you, then there’s plenty of other classes.

Could not agree more, the same could be said about complaints about the other professions (and specific builds) too. There seems to be too much projection of expectations on given professions IMO, it seems to be primarily due to a kind of Elitism that ruins MMOs in general on the whole.

Providing we can play at least 1 profession in a way that we individually find fun and sufficiently rewarding then there is no problem as I see it.

Here’s the real reality and the fundamental issues are clearly spelled out for those who refuse to look past their own noses; http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/3efbu6/necromancer_does_it_need_a_rework/

MattyP.6954:

ZudetGambeous.9573:

VodCom.6924:

Ok I need to get some facts straight quickly for some necro fans over here :

• Necro is NOT at the bottom of the DPS scale for dungeon speed clearing. Damage is actually on par with rangers and lower than warriors.
• Necro is not appreciated because what they bring to a group (boon control, vuln and condi cleanse) is done better by other classes.
• The reaper GS can hit while you move and has a chill on 3rd AA chain. I fail to see why hitting moving targets is impossible
• As other said, the numbers are not final and betas will help the dev adjust them
• If you look beyond the speed clear meta which is a niche activity that is practiced by a tiny minority of players, you’ll realise that a necro has lots of strengths and is very enjoyable to play (e.g : the necro are extremely efficient in the silverwastes).

Can the necro community stop having this inferiority complex that is unjustified and boring in the long run.

- I’d love to see your numbers on this
- not only is it done better it is also not needed in PvE. the one thing we do very well is transfer conditions and strip boons. Well enemies apply 10s boons every 5s while out boon strips have 50s CDs… worthless. Enemies purge conditions almost continuously while our transfers have long CD’s.
- clearly you’ve never tried to catch someone with a Necro. We have 0 mobility. A thief/mesmer/warrior/ele/ranger could be halfway across a map before we even ran a single body length, good luck landing a melee chill with a slow swinging attack lol
- being fun to play has pretty much nothing to do with this discussion. platformers are fun to play too and you do 0 damage in them.

We offer no finishers, no helpful fields, our new team support gives a wonderful 30 damage/healing per attack… and when we cause our team to fail due to lack of support and damage we can at least teleport their bodies onto us to show them we are the most likely reason they died.

I run a frontline dps/support hybrid necro in the Silverwastes (the only PvE I do outside of the occasional world boss) and WvWvW, and I am really, really effective in groups. Consider, if you will, the following:

• 3k-4k AoE Healing on Shroud 4 plus revive and teleporting downed allies out of danger.
  *1.5k-2k AoE Healing upon Exiting Shroud
• Increased revive speed plus AoE Heal and Light Field on Revive
• Consistent 3k-4k autoattacks in Death Shroud
• Pulsing AoE Vuln and Vuln on AutoAttack in Death Shroud
• Not necessarily a support or dps feature, but I have a 7k heal on my utility bar in addition to my slotted heal skill, which heals for 4.6k + additional lifesteal
• I don’t even run Vampiric Aura (I get more use out of Banshee’s Wail)
• Above numbers achieved with all Exotic Gear

Necro is far from useless in PvE and WvWvW, and can provide plenty of support as is.

Honestly though, I don’t really care about the top tier meta or Dungeon Speed Clearing. Necromancer is fun for me, so I play it. If it’s not fun for you, then there’s plenty of other classes.

If you somehow think this post is supposed to say that necro is useful then I don’t think we can help you as you fundamentally misunderstand how GW2 combat works.

ZudetGambeous.9573:

If you somehow think this post is supposed to say that necro is useful then I don’t think we can help you as you fundamentally misunderstand how GW2 combat works.

Yeah, I mean what use do hitpoints, revives, light fields, and area of effect debuffing have in this game? Everyone knows that Vulnerability doesn’t increase your damage and everyone has an unlimited supply of HP

/snark

Not everything in GW2 needs to fit into a meta-build pigeon hole…

It is the meta-build elitists that can not see past their noses IMO

All I will say is this. When my maximum potential dps as a necromancer is worse than other classes 2nd or even 3rd best spec for dps it feels crappy. I feel like I’m holding everyone back WHILE not giving any (wanted) support.

DPS is not everything, I think there are too many people who think this is the be all and end all but it is not… as pointed out you do not have to play as a Necro.

As for holding ppl back and not giving any (wanted) support, that is down to the particular group you are playing with and their personalities. If you enjoy playing a particular way and it achieves the goals you set yourself it should not matter what others think.

Personally, I think Elitist criticism of (or prejudice against) other players (be it build, kit, or anything else) should be considered a reportable offence with the potential of repeat offenders being banned.

WSG Delen.9203:

DPS is not everything, I think there are too many people who think this is the be all and end all but it is not… as pointed out you do not have to play as a Necro.

As for holding ppl back and not giving any (wanted) support, that is down to the particular group you are playing with and their personalities. If you enjoy playing a particular way and it achieves the goals you set yourself it should not matter what others think.

Personally, I think Elitist criticism of (or prejudice against) other players (be it build, kit, or anything else) should be considered a reportable offence with the potential of repeat offenders being banned.

I agreed with everything but the last paragraph. Every game has elitist kittens, and this one is no different.

That being said, if HoT does what I think it will, support builds will become much more desired in PvE Content. Could you imagine a 5-man instance that actually punished stacking with intelligent mobs that didn’t sit in AoE? That might actually be fun!

It is a matter of what would generally be considered acceptable behaviour in the real world, the anonymity of the internet should not be used as a shield or an excuse to behave any differently. Unacceptable behaviour should be recognised and treated as such even if it is prolific, if no one draws the line things will not improve. This is moot in the context of GW/GW2 if A-Net do not have the iron to support it though. But we have drifted off-topic…

We will have to wait and see wrt the Necro elite specialisation, things may not be as bad as they are purported to be by some.

WSG Delen.9203:

DPS is not everything, I think there are too many people who think this is the be all and end all but it is not… as pointed out you do not have to play as a Necro.

As for holding ppl back and not giving any (wanted) support, that is down to the particular group you are playing with and their personalities. If you enjoy playing a particular way and it achieves the goals you set yourself it should not matter what others think.

Personally, I think Elitist criticism of (or prejudice against) other players (be it build, kit, or anything else) should be considered a reportable offence with the potential of repeat offenders being banned.

DPS isnt everything to you…. Imagine a world where we have a class that is themed around death and dark magics like the necro and then give it the thiefs DPS. I want to live in that world

@ Zalavaaris: I think MattyP has pointed out that a Necro can deal alot of damage with a Hybrid-Build. Whether some professions deal an unbalanced degree of damage is a point of discussion for another thread perhaps though.

Ok, so the Necro can not be played the way you want to play it… so what? I can understand the desire to be able to play specific professions a specific way but I disagree with the general principle that all professions should be equal in all ways.

Playing any given build of any given profession should be a matter of compromise and trade off. The choice of profession should perhaps be as significant as the choice of build, it would be even better if the choice of race had a significant impact too (more than just the personal story, looks, emotes, and racial skills that is). For example: A Norn might get a bonus to physical damage but a reduction to stealth capability and perhaps magic damage, a Silvari may gain an inherent bonus to nature based skills but a reduction to more abstract or physical skills, an Asura may gain an inherent bonus to magic based attacks but be weaker where physical skills and health are concerned, a Chaar might be more stealthy and have greater critical chance but could have a toughness penalty, and humans would be middle of the road overall.

I know the latter part drifts off-topic but hopefully it serves to demonstrate the point I have been trying to get at.

I agree, not everything has to be perfectly equal…. but…. an 8,000 dps discrepancy isnt ok for someone who wants to be competitive dps wise.

Vlad Morbius.1759:

Here’s the real reality and the fundamental issues are clearly spelled out for those who refuse to look past their own noses; http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/3efbu6/necromancer_does_it_need_a_rework/

Your reddit post barely scratched the surface of things and confuses symptoms and causes.

The necromancer is built with 3 principles in mind :

• Condition manipulation at the cost of condi application
• Low mobility compensated by high HP
• Selfishness

These 3 principles ALONE can explain the actual state of the necro in the meta. The necromancer is insane when it comes to self buffing. Both in pve, pvp and wvw. It only matters in WvW because these fights are so chaotic You need to be self sufficient to be efficient. In speed clear, someone can buff you and babysit you all the way.

Low mobility and high HP explains the poor state of necro in sPvP. You cannot escape a gank so you are your team’s weakpoint.

The necro does not need a rework. In pvp it is starting to become a thing. In WvW is it already a thing. In PvE, necros need content where they are useful. Not a rework to be an ele wannabe.

If the 8k dps is replaced with some other factor such as increased survivability or non-damage based controlling conditions, then there is not a problem.

Of course, if all a given player cares about is min-maxing their damage and the like then some of the classes may not suit their particular aims.

If there is an 8k damage disparity without a notional trade off then perhaps the overall problem is balance with one or more of the professions.

Generally speaking, I think A-Net need to take a hard look at ALL the skills and professions and rebalance them appropriately with a suitable sized scalpel rather than with the more clumsy bull-dozer/chainsaw they have a bit of a rep using.

The reality of PvE is there are 2 things that matter—DPS and Utility. At least in GW2 where the trinity has been abolished.

So of these things, and despite what people in this thread may want to ‘believe’, the reality is the Necromancer is bottom tier in both DPS and Utility. Now the above posters may want to claim their hybrid build does great damage, and that’s fine. Reality of thr situation is they’re wrong. A hardcore, full power build with 100% chance to crit on a stationairy target is the best DPS option for this class and that best isn’t anywhere close to leader of the pack.

So what about utility you ask? You’d expect, in a balanced world, that if a class isn’t able to top the DPS charts then they provide worthwhile utility to compensate for it so the class is still relvant to the group. Wrong again. Necromancer utility is inconsequential because numerous other classes provide the same utility or better while at the same time providing more DPS.

And the saddest thing of all, this ‘unbalanced degree’ of damage you want to discuss, the classes that are at the top in DPS are also at the top for utility.

And this is the problem. These are real problems, and while a small fraction of the playerbase actually plays to a level where any of this matters, they still perceive these problems. No one cares what you as a player are capable of. They care what your class is capable of. And as a Necromancer, in PvE, it’s not much.

This is the reality of the situation and there are numbers, examples, and scenarios to back this reality up. Until ANet takes a long hard look at the state their classes are in, things won’t change. No class should bring everything. There should be some degree of balance between utility and DPS. Otherwise why bring anything but 4 Elementalists and a Mesmer?

Theres nothing worth 8k dps that can be replaced to someone who wants to push their damage. In this meta you dont NEED survivability. You need high damage and group support (helping them do more damage).

You only don’t need survivability if all you do is play with blobs and zergs all the time… one of my biggest complaints about GW2 is the prolific nature of such groups across the board… they can cause as many problems as they solve from an individual player perspective.

WSG Delen.9203:

You only don’t need survivability if all you do is play with blobs and zergs all the time… one of my biggest complaints about GW2 is the prolific nature of such groups across the board… they can cause as many problems as they solve from an individual player perspective.

No zergs or blobs in dungeons im afraid

Zalavaaris.5329:

WSG Delen.9203:

You only don’t need survivability if all you do is play with blobs and zergs all the time… one of my biggest complaints about GW2 is the prolific nature of such groups across the board… they can cause as many problems as they solve from an individual player perspective.

No zergs or blobs in dungeons im afraid

And this goes back to that scam ANet’s trying to peddle about difficult content.

There’s no trinity to force group composition and we already have content that is designed to kill you in 1 hit unless you dodge. That’s pretty much the most extreme PvE you can muster in a game like this… if you mess up even once, you die.

The only way you make content like this harder is put a DPS check in there so if you don’t beat the boss in X seconds, he’ll do his 1 hit KO even faster until the point you can no longer dodge them. But that would be our worst nightmare considering the Necro in particular would have no hope.

One last misconception I’d like to shatter : Colin Johanson has stated recently that the team wants tanky builds to be relevant in high level content. The actual meta is the result of the inexperience of the team and not something they intended from the beginning.

Skipping for example is something they’ve fought against (look at TA aether).

So don’t claim that only dps and dps boosters matter in pve, because this might change.

It boils down to balancing across the board… which A-Net have been notoriously bad at with GW2.

For specific in-game events it may be that certain professions or builds are not viable but does that not indicate that the event may be balanced incorrectly as well as the professions themselves?

Min-maxing DPS and Utility should not be the sole driving force behind builds as this just leads us to Meta-build hell and general prejudice against players when they don’t fit into one specific pigeon hole or another.

Mega-Server is probably as much to blame for some of the balancing issues as anything else since the scaling of events seems to be a bit squirrelly at times.

VodCom.6924:

One last misconception I’d like to shatter : Colin Johanson has stated recently that the team wants tanky builds to be relevant in high level content. The actual meta is the result of the inexperience of the team and not something they intended from the beginning.

Skipping for example is something they’ve fought against (look at TA aether).

So don’t claim that only dps and dps boosters matter in pve, because this might change.

Id love for them to change it, but until they do, thats all that matters in dungeons.

This is so true. Sadly elementalist shouts blow the reapers away in every single catagory. I truly regret being dumb enough to pre order this game.

Elementalist shouts have lower cooldowns, more damage, team buffing utility, and roughly 1/2 to 1/4 the cast times of reaper shouts. Boy! Sure am glad I have a second healthbar to tank damage while lying on the floor. At least we get to look somewhat cool lying on the ground.

What the hell is wrong with the devs in charge of game balance? Reaper shouts are only offensive and still do roughly half the damage of ele shouts which also grant allies massive buffs. Literally all their shouts grant massive buffs to allies. Give me my kittening money back, or balance the kittening game.

Thor Rising.7850:

This is so true. Sadly elementalist shouts blow the reapers away in every single catagory. I truly regret being dumb enough to pre order this game.

Elementalist shouts have lower cooldowns, more damage, team buffing utility, and roughly 1/2 to 1/4 the cast times of reaper shouts. Boy! Sure am glad I have a second healthbar to tank damage while lying on the floor. At least we get to look somewhat cool lying on the ground.

What the hell is wrong with the devs in charge of game balance? Reaper shouts are only offensive and still do roughly half the damage of ele shouts which also grant allies massive buffs. Literally all their shouts grant massive buffs to allies. Give me my kittening money back, or balance the kittening game.

Can you get a refund? Money talks. It’s worth considering.

A very small minority of players are actually interested in those DPS meta’s and mostly this is because they’re also the speedrunners in dungeons.

Outside of it, most players, except those absolutely wanting to ‘save time’ will accept necro’s (and other classes) into their parties, wether it be fractals (also pve) or WB’s or in SW.

Most of us don’t care about those speedfreaks in their oh so precious dungeon runs. I don’t even want to know who broke what record in what instance, i don’t frikkin care, and 95% of the players don’t either.
You broke a speedrun record ? Grats, give yourself a pixelated medal and move on.

Fact is, every class has certain weaknesses and strengths, and those that choose a certain build, no matter what their class, do so because it’s fun.

Personally, i’d rather have a necro with me in an instance or in SW for example, that rezzes me when i get downed so i can contribute to the overall dps or goal, then some dps freak who just ignores everything around him/her while staring at their dmg numbers popping up.

Some like to maximize their damage, break records and whatnot, good for them. some like to have fun in other ways, contributing in other ways, playing a certain class even if it means they do less dmg, well, good for them, they got my 2 thumbs up.

Nothing is set in stone as far as HoT is concerned, so you can’t start worrying just yet, but my guess is that necro’s will bring something to the content that parties might need. Even if it’s a downed player with an extra hp bar. So to speak :s

Play the char you like, the build you like, the way you like.And wait to see what will change and what not. Nothing more to it.

… thats all that matters in dungeons.

Dungeons. right. Make one toon that goes there, full zerk meta, max dps (it’s over 9000!!!) and make all others for everything else. Problem solved.