Guild Wars 2

IndigoSundown.5419:

Vayne.8563:

I disagree with people who say the new zones are dead because you need LFG to get to them, because that’s how they were designed. It doesn’t make them dead, any mote than it makes any other form of content that needs coordination and people dead to use tools to find people to do it.

I don’t believe this to be the full story. The way mega server shards seem to propagate, and the number of people actually needed to complete zone metas says to me that ANet designed meta events to function independently of the LFG. If people stayed put, the mega server algorithms would likely result in most shards having enough people to advance a zone’s meta event. However, if people leave a zone to flock to fuller zones, this results in other shards being under-populated.

Throw in that there are (likely) a lot more followers than leaders. Even if there are enough people to complete an event, if the zone does not look organized, people will go to one that does. There is overwhelming evidence on these and other forums that as the MMO consumer base has aged, convenience has become of paramount importance.

I believe that the only way to ensure that mega shards don’t appear dead would be for convenience tools like the LFG and Join In to be removed. If that occurred, people might step up. I say might because while that’s what used to happen with dedicated servers, we also saw people guesting even back then. Guesting was a preview of the mega-server/LFG paradigm that’s in place now. I also say might because once a developer gives players convenience, at least some of them will rage and quit if that convenience is removed rather than reverting to a play-style where initiative and enterprise prevail.

Convenience, short attention spans and a desire for rapid gratification also cause at least some of the antipathy towards the LFG “solution” to “dead” zones. Once someone experiences the frustration of a “zone is full” notice when trying to Join In, the willingness to keep trying or come back later can get trumped by the myriad other forms of entertainment available on demand or other life concerns.

I really don’t think that there is a developer-side solution to the problem. ANet cannot remove the LFG or Join In without earning even more criticism than “dead” HoT maps bring. They cannot change peoples’ natures to make them choose a path of greater resistance. At best, they might be able to tweak the algorithms which open and close shards or change zone caps. I’m not convinced that either numerical manipulation would be better, though.

TL:DR: Mega-servers are designed so that most maps will have enough people to progress the meta. The “dead maps” issue’s primary cause is LFG/Join In, and there is little to nothing ANet can do to fix it. As seems to be par for the course in MMO’s these days, convenience is both the cause of complaints about the issue and the cause of the issue.

You may well be right, but the real take away from what I was saying should have been the zones are not dead, even though some people say they are. They’re not even close to dead. If they were, I couldn’t do the stuff I do pretty much every day or every other day.

IndigoSundown.5419:

I believe that the only way to ensure that mega shards don’t appear dead would be for convenience tools like the LFG and Join In to be removed.

Your belief is so wrong. This is probably the only way to really kill these zones, and here is why.

The current system allows you to join an instance with a reasonably high chances of success. Removing it would basically mean you need to rely on RNG to end up in a successful zone. And while now you actually can step up and ensure the success of your instance (I’ve done this myself on many occasions), without the LFG you will have literally no power to affect the chances of successful meta. Meaning the removal of the LFG system will directly discourage players from even trying to play these zones. It’s a horrible idea.

P.S. And what if you want to play the meta with a friend? You need to rely on RNG to end up in the same instance again?

Feanor.2358:

The current system allows you to join an instance with a reasonably high chances of success.

There would be no difference between a pug LFG map and a pug normal map, that is if megaservers weren’t actively trying to screw you. LFG allows you to fit around 25% to 50% more people into a map and more people means the content is easier, since scaling wasn’t designed to keep up the difficulty. If scaling was actually fair so that a full map was even slightly in line with the minimum scale, chances are the zerg would always fail. You don’t need 100 people for these maps, but only 20 decent players (1 group per objective) as group events are scaled for 3 people minimum. When people LFG, 1 full map is potentially killing off 3 other maps. The only reason to LFG is because the average player simply cannot handle the difficulty of HoT, so they rely on overpopulating to greatly reduce the difficulty, where a 100 person zerg is essentially scaled for half that.

LFG is also why megaservers break. Whenever a full map is closing or volunteering sends you to a dead map, it’s because people hopped the chain.

The bigger problem with LFG however is that the average player is simply going to login and play (usually solo), not use LFG, and chances are they’re going to hit a dead map every time. From their perspective, HoT is dead, most of the content is unplayable and that 1 full map doesn’t matter because they’ll never know. Furthermore, when the map is always dead or always fails, people are simply going to stop showing up, which is probably why HoT died within the first month or so. If ArenaNet has no intention of improving the megaservers, at the very least they need to be first come first serve, they either need to implement districts or simply avoid any content that requires multiple groups or splits the map, like how the farm in Lake Doric kills the rest of the map. Events designed for larger groups need to be split from the maps and put in their own area that you can simply queue into. At least that way it can be balanced for everyone participating.

Healix.5819:

Feanor.2358:

The current system allows you to join an instance with a reasonably high chances of success.

There would be no difference between a pug LFG map and a pug normal map, that is if megaservers weren’t actively trying to screw you. LFG allows you to fit around 25% to 50% more people into a map and more people means the content is easier, since scaling wasn’t designed to keep up the difficulty. If scaling was actually fair so that a full map was even slightly in line with the minimum scale, chances are the zerg would always fail. You don’t need 100 people for these maps, but only 20 decent players (1 group per objective) as group events are scaled for 3 people minimum. When people LFG, 1 full map is potentially killing off 3 other maps. The only reason to LFG is because the average player simply cannot handle the difficulty of HoT, so they rely on overpopulating to greatly reduce the difficulty, where a 100 person zerg is essentially scaled for half that.

I’d rather kill 3 other maps and be successful than rely on every player in my instance being decent. We both know how this would end up. And I believe players at large would make the same choice. Largely because they actually do. Explaining how something could potentially work if the players were something that they aren’t is just an utopia. And it is precisely the reason why utopias fail, by the way.

The system accounts for the player behaviour rather than ignore it and just wish it was different. That’s why it works.

This takes us back to the current issue with megaserver. How can you allow “first come, first serve” and also allow players to play with their friends without recreating the problem?

Let’s say you create a separate instance for the meta with a first come, first serve queue.

If you allow group queuing, what is to stop players from using LFG to organize prior to queue time and simply joining as a full squad? Result: Maps still get depleted during the meta for those who aren’t participating and players who don’t use LFG are left out in the cold. Not really any different from the current situation.

If you disallow group queuing, players can’t play with their friends. I think that’s just a dead-end, honestly. It’s a feature that must be included. But it’s also the source of these issues and why megaserver has never been “fixed”.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Vayne.8563:

I disagree with people who say the new zones are dead because you need LFG to get to them, because that’s how they were designed. It doesn’t make them dead, any mote than it makes any other form of content that needs coordination and people dead to use tools to find people to do it.

I don’t believe this to be the full story. The way mega server shards seem to propagate, and the number of people actually needed to complete zone metas says to me that ANet designed meta events to function independently of the LFG. If people stayed put, the mega server algorithms would likely result in most shards having enough people to advance a zone’s meta event. However, if people leave a zone to flock to fuller zones, this results in other shards being under-populated.

Throw in that there are (likely) a lot more followers than leaders. Even if there are enough people to complete an event, if the zone does not look organized, people will go to one that does. There is overwhelming evidence on these and other forums that as the MMO consumer base has aged, convenience has become of paramount importance.

I believe that the only way to ensure that mega shards don’t appear dead would be for convenience tools like the LFG and Join In to be removed. If that occurred, people might step up. I say might because while that’s what used to happen with dedicated servers, we also saw people guesting even back then. Guesting was a preview of the mega-server/LFG paradigm that’s in place now. I also say might because once a developer gives players convenience, at least some of them will rage and quit if that convenience is removed rather than reverting to a play-style where initiative and enterprise prevail.

Convenience, short attention spans and a desire for rapid gratification also cause at least some of the antipathy towards the LFG “solution” to “dead” zones. Once someone experiences the frustration of a “zone is full” notice when trying to Join In, the willingness to keep trying or come back later can get trumped by the myriad other forms of entertainment available on demand or other life concerns.

I really don’t think that there is a developer-side solution to the problem. ANet cannot remove the LFG or Join In without earning even more criticism than “dead” HoT maps bring. They cannot change peoples’ natures to make them choose a path of greater resistance. At best, they might be able to tweak the algorithms which open and close shards or change zone caps. I’m not convinced that either numerical manipulation would be better, though.

TL:DR: Mega-servers are designed so that most maps will have enough people to progress the meta. The “dead maps” issue’s primary cause is LFG/Join In, and there is little to nothing ANet can do to fix it. As seems to be par for the course in MMO’s these days, convenience is both the cause of complaints about the issue and the cause of the issue.

The meta event server interaction, isnt as simple as having enough people. You need people who actually either want to do the meta, or dont want to mess it up.

Scaling means you can do it with few people, relatively, but you cant do it with a few people if people are randomly entering the area, or doing some of the dynamic events tied to the meta, or are there, but not doing the needed objectives.

Basically the real key to the megaserver lfg channel surf, is to find a place where there arent too many randoms who will have a detrimental effect on the attempt.

I think the only truely viable solution is actually to give people choice. They main problem with the lfg work around, is that
A) people who dont know, dont realize why their maps are dead
B)The implementation wasnt meant for what it is used for, so it is not user friendly and is not effecient when used for server stacking.

In some way, let people Select whether to join a Meta focused Map, or an exploration(ill use this as a catch all phrase for everything else people may want to do on a map)
This will make it clear to players that maps arent actually dead, and will allow people with similar goals to be grouped together.
Essentially, one of the biggest problems with megaserver, is it puts people together on the wrong basis, its more important to group people with similar playing goals, than in arbitrary categories like servers/friendlist. as well as the fact that peoples goals may change from moment to moment.

I get OP on this too.
Opening up stuff on masteries was made the zones a lot more playable. I think that was the point. My husband felt much the same as well. HoT gated the ability to play the maps and its problematic for some players.

Vayne.8563:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Vayne.8563:

- snip -

— snip —

You may well be right, but the real take away from what I was saying should have been the zones are not dead, even though some people say they are. They’re not even close to dead. If they were, I couldn’t do the stuff I do pretty much every day or every other day.

The real take away ought to have been that the maps are not dead only for people who know how to and choose to work around the mega-server system. Experientially, maps appear dead because that is the experience of those who don’t do the work around for whatever reason, or those who try but get the full map message when they try to Join In.

Feanor.2358:

IndigoSundown.5419:

I believe that the only way to ensure that mega shards don’t appear dead would be for convenience tools like the LFG and Join In to be removed.

Your belief is so wrong. This is probably the only way to really kill these zones, and here is why.

The current system allows you to join an instance with a reasonably high chances of success. Removing it would basically mean you need to rely on RNG to end up in a successful zone. And while now you actually can step up and ensure the success of your instance (I’ve done this myself on many occasions), without the LFG you will have literally no power to affect the chances of successful meta. Meaning the removal of the LFG system will directly discourage players from even trying to play these zones. It’s a horrible idea.

P.S. And what if you want to play the meta with a friend? You need to rely on RNG to end up in the same instance again?

There is nothing wrong with my belief. That’s how the game used to work back when servers mattered for PvE. Those who chose not to guest to TC would hitch up their belts, go recruit people for metas in LA or DR and get stuff done, usually with far fewer people than we see in the shard of the cycle in HoT.

Had you chosen to quote my whole post instead of cherry-picking and taking out of context, you’d have seen that I said:

“I believe that the only way to ensure that mega shards don’t appear dead would be for convenience tools like the LFG and Join In to be removed. If that occurred, people might step up. I say might because while that’s what used to happen with dedicated servers, we also saw people guesting even back then. Guesting was a preview of the mega-server/LFG paradigm that’s in place now. I also say might because once a developer gives players convenience, at least some of them will rage and quit if that convenience is removed rather than reverting to a play-style where initiative and enterprise prevail.”

So, no. I’m well aware that once a developer has taken the genie out of the bottle, it’s unlikely to be put back in. Given the nature of the taxi system and the way people have grown to rely on it, it’s much more likely that your prediction would come true than that people who revert to older play patterns.

I’m probably missing some variables, but it seems like the general takeaway is that “finding your way to a populated map” needs to be a more transparent and obvious process to the player.

For instance, a system where…. say you port to VB and then you hit a checkbox that says you want to do meta events. It does some behind-the-scenes checks and then prompts you to join a map that is built on other players having hit the same checkbox. This could even be set as the “default” checked option for maps like VB, since it’s probably the most common way one would want to play the map.

Then you’d have a couple other options as well, like map completion (for things like exploring or HP trains), story. And maybe a more generic option like “other” that players can use to match for unique circumstances, like special farm areas.

In addition to this, I think it’d be a good idea to tweak how squads are put together and have this queue system automatically put people into the same squad, for options where grouping is an expected part of it (ex: meta events).

In other words, mimick how taxiing works for getting people grouped together, in a way that is more transparent and automated. Taxiing and LFG could be left in still as a manual option, if players want to go that route for edge cases that go outside the automated system (or in cases where the automated system is borked for whatever reason).

Oh and BTW, I did have a time frame a few days ago (I think it was like evening-ish on a weekday) where I was trying to do events in AB and could not find people, like at all. Taxiing was pretty much dead under that section. I tried multiple times telling people I was doing pylons in map chat… got maybe 3-4 people in total in the 20-30 minutes I tried for. Tried tagging up several times, including trying queuing up in LFG to try to get people to join me.

Was mind-boggingly dead. When I finally just gave up after it took a handful of us something like 20 minutes to activate one pylon, I peeked around in LFG and did notice that TD seemed to be at the height of its meta, so maybe that was pulling in most of the active players in HoT maps. I had no idea TD was nearing that stage when I started trying to find people for pylons though, and really no way to know, without tracking the meta somehow or going to TD myself. Plus I didn’t really want to be TD at that moment.

So I mean, dead zones are not bigfoot. They are certainly something that exists in some capacity. Granted, in the times I’ve played since I came back, that is the worst I’ve seen it when I was trying to do events.

Edit: Meant AB, not VB. Wrong initials.

Labjax.2465:

Oh and BTW, I did have a time frame a few days ago (I think it was like evening-ish on a weekday) where I was trying to do events in AB and could not find people, like at all. Taxiing was pretty much dead under that section. I tried multiple times telling people I was doing pylons in map chat… got maybe 3-4 people in total in the 20-30 minutes I tried for. Tried tagging up several times, including trying queuing up in LFG to try to get people to join me.

Was mind-boggingly dead. When I finally just gave up after it took a handful of us something like 20 minutes to activate one pylon, I peeked around in LFG and did notice that TD seemed to be at the height of its meta, so maybe that was pulling in most of the active players in HoT maps. I had no idea TD was nearing that stage when I started trying to find people for pylons though, and really no way to know, without tracking the meta somehow or going to TD myself. Plus I didn’t really want to be TD at that moment.

So I mean, dead zones are not bigfoot. They are certainly something that exists in some capacity. Granted, in the times I’ve played since I came back, that is the worst I’ve seen it when I was trying to do events.

Edit: Meant AB, not VB. Wrong initials.

The meta schedule is found on timer sights like gw2timer.com which is the one I use. It’s no different than tracking world boss events. I wouldn’t bother doing fire ele until it was going to be up. That’s just how it is.

Labjax.2465:

I’m probably missing some variables, but it seems like the general takeaway is that “finding your way to a populated map” needs to be a more transparent and obvious process to the player.

For instance, a system where…. say you port to VB and then you hit a checkbox that says you want to do meta events. It does some behind-the-scenes checks and then prompts you to join a map that is built on other players having hit the same checkbox. This could even be set as the “default” checked option for maps like VB, since it’s probably the most common way one would want to play the map.

Then you’d have a couple other options as well, like map completion (for things like exploring or HP trains), story. And maybe a more generic option like “other” that players can use to match for unique circumstances, like special farm areas.

In addition to this, I think it’d be a good idea to tweak how squads are put together and have this queue system automatically put people into the same squad, for options where grouping is an expected part of it (ex: meta events).

In other words, mimick how taxiing works for getting people grouped together, in a way that is more transparent and automated. Taxiing and LFG could be left in still as a manual option, if players want to go that route for edge cases that go outside the automated system (or in cases where the automated system is borked for whatever reason).

My answer to all of this was to find a couple of friends. 90% plus of the hot maps can be done by a group of 3.

Poisonedpawn.7085:

I get that it was trying to force the use of the glider and whatever bogus mushroom crap is in the game but it was FAR too forced. Its more annoying than its fun.

I start up my SOLO play story line. Let me say this again.. SOLO PLAY Story line. To find out that not only do the NPCs get absolutely annihilated leaving you alone to fight 15+ mobs, but you yourself get zerg gibbed in 2 seconds. Yes i dodged, Yes i tried to avoid everything. At some point you have to try and hit them and thats when you get gibbed.

After dying and grinding my way through a few solo missions and getting to the point where I had to defend the frog village only to once again have every single npc dead within seconds and dying over and over i gave up.

The SOLO PLAY story line is simply not designed properly. Its garbage. And thats it for me, I was COMPLETELY enjoying the game .. right up until the expansion. Solo play is just not balanced properly.

I always wondered why more people dont play this game. Now i know.

I hope the devs have learnt from their mistakes and will make a better second expansion.

You are right that it involved a lot of grinding to get those Masteries levelled (it is a piece of cake to play through HoT on your second and third character, once the Masteries are all up). It was no fun for someone entering HoT for the first time. It was in fact so painful that I didn’t touch it for another six months until I got myself to force myself through the pain of grinding through it.

Anyway, once you are all good and settled with the Masteries, it is actually quite enjoyable. Other than the last mission and certain Hero Points challenges (and the events, of course, but those are meant for squads), you can solo everything in HoT.

Vayne.8563:

Labjax.2465:

Oh and BTW, I did have a time frame a few days ago (I think it was like evening-ish on a weekday) where I was trying to do events in AB and could not find people, like at all. Taxiing was pretty much dead under that section. I tried multiple times telling people I was doing pylons in map chat… got maybe 3-4 people in total in the 20-30 minutes I tried for. Tried tagging up several times, including trying queuing up in LFG to try to get people to join me.

Was mind-boggingly dead. When I finally just gave up after it took a handful of us something like 20 minutes to activate one pylon, I peeked around in LFG and did notice that TD seemed to be at the height of its meta, so maybe that was pulling in most of the active players in HoT maps. I had no idea TD was nearing that stage when I started trying to find people for pylons though, and really no way to know, without tracking the meta somehow or going to TD myself. Plus I didn’t really want to be TD at that moment.

So I mean, dead zones are not bigfoot. They are certainly something that exists in some capacity. Granted, in the times I’ve played since I came back, that is the worst I’ve seen it when I was trying to do events.

Edit: Meant AB, not VB. Wrong initials.

The meta schedule is found on timer sights like gw2timer.com which is the one I use. It’s no different than tracking world boss events. I wouldn’t bother doing fire ele until it was going to be up. That’s just how it is.

Thing is though, in this case, I wasn’t wanting to do “whatever event other people are on now.” I wanted to do AB. And I couldn’t find people for doing AB. Being able to find somewhere in the realm of 5-10 people total, in 30+ minutes, with various attempts to get people (and some of those 5-10 trickling away… I don’t remember how many there were at every point… I just know when I gave up, there were maybe 4 of us tops and most of the time, there was no more than 2-3, including myself).

Point is, during that time-frame, the map was definitely what most people call “dead” for doing events.

If I have to wait for a meta timer on a flagship HoT map to find people to do events that are happening on that map, I’d rank that pretty much as population problems in that moment.

So I’m a bit confused by your response. I’m not sure if you’re trying to respond to what I said, or just talking about the timer as a separate thing.

Labjax.2465:

Vayne.8563:

Labjax.2465:

Oh and BTW, I did have a time frame a few days ago (I think it was like evening-ish on a weekday) where I was trying to do events in AB and could not find people, like at all. Taxiing was pretty much dead under that section. I tried multiple times telling people I was doing pylons in map chat… got maybe 3-4 people in total in the 20-30 minutes I tried for. Tried tagging up several times, including trying queuing up in LFG to try to get people to join me.

Was mind-boggingly dead. When I finally just gave up after it took a handful of us something like 20 minutes to activate one pylon, I peeked around in LFG and did notice that TD seemed to be at the height of its meta, so maybe that was pulling in most of the active players in HoT maps. I had no idea TD was nearing that stage when I started trying to find people for pylons though, and really no way to know, without tracking the meta somehow or going to TD myself. Plus I didn’t really want to be TD at that moment.

So I mean, dead zones are not bigfoot. They are certainly something that exists in some capacity. Granted, in the times I’ve played since I came back, that is the worst I’ve seen it when I was trying to do events.

Edit: Meant AB, not VB. Wrong initials.

The meta schedule is found on timer sights like gw2timer.com which is the one I use. It’s no different than tracking world boss events. I wouldn’t bother doing fire ele until it was going to be up. That’s just how it is.

Thing is though, in this case, I wasn’t wanting to do “whatever event other people are on now.” I wanted to do AB. And I couldn’t find people for doing AB. Being able to find somewhere in the realm of 5-10 people total, in 30+ minutes, with various attempts to get people (and some of those 5-10 trickling away… I don’t remember how many there were at every point… I just know when I gave up, there were maybe 4 of us tops and most of the time, there was no more than 2-3, including myself).

Point is, during that time-frame, the map was definitely what most people call “dead” for doing events.

If I have to wait for a meta timer on a flagship HoT map to find people to do events that are happening on that map, I’d rank that pretty much as population problems in that moment.

So I’m a bit confused by your response. I’m not sure if you’re trying to respond to what I said, or just talking about the timer as a separate thing.

What most people who defend HoT maps think is that if you’re not there to do the Meta, you’re doing it wrong. Of course they think that everything besides the Meta is solo-able also, so you won’t get much sympathy if you’re trying to find people to do non-Meta stuff.

That said, I can only imagine someone coming to AB for the first time and finding what you describe. Not sure what they are supposed to do in that case. If they can’t solo, gg I guess.

Djinn.9245:

What most people who defend HoT maps think is that if you’re not there to do the Meta, you’re doing it wrong. Of course they think that everything besides the Meta is solo-able also, so you won’t get much sympathy if you’re trying to find people to do non-Meta stuff.
…

Pretty much sums up my HoT experience.
With HoT I felt the games direction changed from a utopic “Play your way” to a much more regular “Play this way or get out of the way.”

Grinding “content” that annoys me for hours to have fun is simply to yesterdecade for me.
A lot of people seem to like the change which is fine – They could though, have found the exact same style/focus in so many other games!

Halandir.3609:

Djinn.9245:

What most people who defend HoT maps think is that if you’re not there to do the Meta, you’re doing it wrong. Of course they think that everything besides the Meta is solo-able also, so you won’t get much sympathy if you’re trying to find people to do non-Meta stuff.
…

Pretty much sums up my HoT experience.
With HoT I felt the games direction changed from a utopic “Play your way” to a much more regular “Play this way or get out of the way.”

Grinding “content” that annoys me for hours to have fun is simply to yesterdecade for me.
A lot of people seem to like the change which is fine – They could though, have found the exact same style/focus in so many other games!

As is my experience as well. Too much effort for the same old rewards….

Halandir.3609:

Djinn.9245:

What most people who defend HoT maps think is that if you’re not there to do the Meta, you’re doing it wrong. Of course they think that everything besides the Meta is solo-able also, so you won’t get much sympathy if you’re trying to find people to do non-Meta stuff.
…

Pretty much sums up my HoT experience.
With HoT I felt the games direction changed from a utopic “Play your way” to a much more regular “Play this way or get out of the way.”

Grinding “content” that annoys me for hours to have fun is simply to yesterdecade for me.
A lot of people seem to like the change which is fine – They could though, have found the exact same style/focus in so many other games!

Yes, what disappoints me is that GW2 was originally based on a great premise of playing your way. They radically changed it to force people to play Anet’s way. I wish Anet would have left that to the other MMOs and kept GW2 the way so many of us loved it.

Halandir.3609:

Djinn.9245:

What most people who defend HoT maps think is that if you’re not there to do the Meta, you’re doing it wrong. Of course they think that everything besides the Meta is solo-able also, so you won’t get much sympathy if you’re trying to find people to do non-Meta stuff.
…

Pretty much sums up my HoT experience.
With HoT I felt the games direction changed from a utopic “Play your way” to a much more regular “Play this way or get out of the way.”

Grinding “content” that annoys me for hours to have fun is simply to yesterdecade for me.
A lot of people seem to like the change which is fine – They could though, have found the exact same style/focus in so many other games!

There is something I personally do not understand about your view. How is grinding content in HoT maps anymore different than grinding content in core maps to lvl up a character ?

flog.3485:

There is something I personally do not understand about your view. How is grinding content in HoT maps anymore different than grinding content in core maps to lvl up a character ?

I did not consider it “grind” in core. I felt I had freedom in the sense that if one area started to feel boring or even annoying, I could always adventure on in a different region/area. Sure there was a level requirement to continue my personal story but I had a multitude of options to gain those levels.
I only did dragon events on occasion when I bumped into them. The need for timer-sites and “educating” myself with youtube videos to play a game never appealed to me.
In core I could have fun without feeling forced to do that. I wasn’t “effective” but that was never my motivation anyway.

HoT changed all of that for me. I found it hard just to wander about and explore the views without seeing red lines that prompted me to dodge instead of enjoying the view.
I needed specific masteries to get to certain places and those masteries were locked to a few (to me, annoying) maps. To spend my mastery points I had to spend even more time in those same limited, annoying maps. Combine that with timed events and the need to taxi to the right zerg – THAT felt like grinding.

It’s fine that some people like that. But it’s not what motivates me in a recreational game. If it was, I would have been playing one of the many games that have been doing it since launch!

Djinn.9245:

Halandir.3609:

Djinn.9245:

What most people who defend HoT maps think is that if you’re not there to do the Meta, you’re doing it wrong. Of course they think that everything besides the Meta is solo-able also, so you won’t get much sympathy if you’re trying to find people to do non-Meta stuff.
…

Pretty much sums up my HoT experience.
With HoT I felt the games direction changed from a utopic “Play your way” to a much more regular “Play this way or get out of the way.”

Grinding “content” that annoys me for hours to have fun is simply to yesterdecade for me.
A lot of people seem to like the change which is fine – They could though, have found the exact same style/focus in so many other games!

Yes, what disappoints me is that GW2 was originally based on a great premise of playing your way. They radically changed it to force people to play Anet’s way. I wish Anet would have left that to the other MMOs and kept GW2 the way so many of us loved it.

As an old GW1 player I expected that GW2 promise to fail. GW1 was based on the premise of almost no grind and they achieved that with prophecies but once the expansions hit they added titles that directly affected skills that were OP. Thus the GW1 grind began and the promise broken. Despite this I still liked playing GW1 but it just wasn’t my main game anymore at the time. This fully prepared me that the GW2 promise would fade.

One of the major reasons Anet couldn’t living up to their promise is they are very disconnected from their own player base, the mmo player base in general and it seems to be a trend with many devs over the last few years. They also keep losing devs with experience and seem to not know how to fine tune certain aspects of the game. Need proof? There are 8 things within GW2 that haven’t been touched by the devs in years.

In all honesty I was hoping GW2 would adopt a more defined trinity than what it started with because I played during the zerker meta and it wasn’t fun. It wasn’t the zerker stat lines fault it was just everything else was not needed given how much of the core game never demanded the other stat lines.

I recently came back to the game after three years and finished HoT with a zerk warrior and ranger and I can tell you the difficulty spike is high for solo play which is not good since most of the expansion is solo/open world. This is when tiers of clear defined difficulty are needed for the broad aspects of the game. Given how the game is atm it should go Raids>Dungeons>Open World group content>Solo content. Since HoT was released with zero dungeons or raids at the time all the difficulty was compressed into the open world maps and story to cater to all the casuals, vets and hardcore players. This is near impossible to accomplish in a realistic fashion and so the expansion was heavily mixed. If they had spent more time on it and added 2-3 dungeons while making the open world content a bit less difficult then I bet HoT would have been better received and sold more copies.

Dungeons are the huge black spot in GW2 and abandoning them was a huge mistake save Fractals. Poor Fractals has been updated like hell to bear the burden but I think Anet might see the light down the road since they actually implemented raids. I think a good start would be to take another look at the original dungeons and start from there. Maybe trash the paths and just make the dungeons a giant explorable area like they were intended to be in development and update the rewards and how they are earned.

Halandir.3609:

flog.3485:

There is something I personally do not understand about your view. How is grinding content in HoT maps anymore different than grinding content in core maps to lvl up a character ?

I did not consider it “grind” in core. I felt I had freedom in the sense that if one area started to feel boring or even annoying, I could always adventure on in a different region/area. Sure there was a level requirement to continue my personal story but I had a multitude of options to gain those levels.
I only did dragon events on occasion when I bumped into them. The need for timer-sites and “educating” myself with youtube videos to play a game never appealed to me.
In core I could have fun without feeling forced to do that. I wasn’t “effective” but that was never my motivation anyway.

HoT changed all of that for me. I found it hard just to wander about and explore the views without seeing red lines that prompted me to dodge instead of enjoying the view.
I needed specific masteries to get to certain places and those masteries were locked to a few (to me, annoying) maps. To spend my mastery points I had to spend even more time in those same limited, annoying maps. Combine that with timed events and the need to taxi to the right zerg – THAT felt like grinding.

It’s fine that some people like that. But it’s not what motivates me in a recreational game. If it was, I would have been playing one of the many games that have been doing it since launch!

Thx for explaining you view. I can’t agree with your perception of things, though. In the end I just think it is only matter of having 4 maps only at release of HoT vs having 24 maps for release of the core game. One another to consider however: obviously they didn’t want to create a situation where the playerbase would have been split between those who have HoT and thus spend their only time in HoT after having played core maps ad nauseam and the other half of players who stay in core game because they didn’t purchase the expansion. My guess is they purposefully made it long to acquire things in HoT so that players would always be encouraged to play in core game other than the obvious core masteries to gain. As much as I like and enjoy the addition of HoT, it would not have been healthy to only play HoT meta events, I always played the game ever since HoT release by alternating between core events and HoT events. The thing is, if they made HoT as easy as core maps, then all the people would just deplete core content and all the new players would have been leveling in empty maps with no veteran around to show them how the game operates.

flog.3485:

The thing is, if they made HoT as easy as core maps, then all the people would just deplete core content and all the new players would have been leveling in empty maps with no veteran around to show them how the game operates.

No matter what style the expansion maps were, players would still be playing in those maps as well as core Tyria.

And in HoT there is no guarantee of a vet player showing anyone the ropes. I have been in several failed AB metas lately where after it failed many “vets” criticized people doing things wrong. My comment in Map Chat was “why didn’t you tell people what to do while the event was running instead of waiting until after it failed?”

Djinn.9245:

flog.3485:

The thing is, if they made HoT as easy as core maps, then all the people would just deplete core content and all the new players would have been leveling in empty maps with no veteran around to show them how the game operates.

No matter what style the expansion maps were, players would still be playing in those maps as well as core Tyria.

And in HoT there is no guarantee of a vet player showing anyone the ropes. I have been in several failed AB metas lately where after it failed many “vets” criticized people doing things wrong. My comment in Map Chat was “why didn’t you tell people what to do while the event was running instead of waiting until after it failed?”

Because it’s older content and most vets probably assume most people do know what to do. When people come to an older game, if they have questions it benefits them to ask those questions. Or do some research, or join a guild, or make some friends. There’s a lot of ways to get info.

Depending on strangers in map chat is almost never the best way. It’s too random to be reliable.

Djinn.9245:

flog.3485:

The thing is, if they made HoT as easy as core maps, then all the people would just deplete core content and all the new players would have been leveling in empty maps with no veteran around to show them how the game operates.

No matter what style the expansion maps were, players would still be playing in those maps as well as core Tyria.

And in HoT there is no guarantee of a vet player showing anyone the ropes. I have been in several failed AB metas lately where after it failed many “vets” criticized people doing things wrong. My comment in Map Chat was “why didn’t you tell people what to do while the event was running instead of waiting until after it failed?”

I think you misunderstood what I was saying. As in for “showing the ropes” I wasn’t talking about HoT maps. I personally think that for any new player starting the game, it feels motivating to see players appearing as “vets” (due to their skin) still go back in core tyria. And that could only really happen if Anet devs, in the first place, did not make HoT content a carbon copy of how core maps operated.

flog.3485:

Djinn.9245:

flog.3485:

The thing is, if they made HoT as easy as core maps, then all the people would just deplete core content and all the new players would have been leveling in empty maps with no veteran around to show them how the game operates.

No matter what style the expansion maps were, players would still be playing in those maps as well as core Tyria.

And in HoT there is no guarantee of a vet player showing anyone the ropes. I have been in several failed AB metas lately where after it failed many “vets” criticized people doing things wrong. My comment in Map Chat was “why didn’t you tell people what to do while the event was running instead of waiting until after it failed?”

I think you misunderstood what I was saying. As in for “showing the ropes” I wasn’t talking about HoT maps. I personally think that for any new player starting the game, it feels motivating to see players appearing as “vets” (due to their skin) still go back in core tyria. And that could only really happen if Anet devs, in the first place, did not make HoT content a carbon copy of how core maps operated.

I’m still not understanding – you think that vets wouldn’t go back to core Tyria no matter what style the expansion maps were? We still have dailies…

Djinn.9245:

flog.3485:

Djinn.9245:

flog.3485:

The thing is, if they made HoT as easy as core maps, then all the people would just deplete core content and all the new players would have been leveling in empty maps with no veteran around to show them how the game operates.

No matter what style the expansion maps were, players would still be playing in those maps as well as core Tyria.

And in HoT there is no guarantee of a vet player showing anyone the ropes. I have been in several failed AB metas lately where after it failed many “vets” criticized people doing things wrong. My comment in Map Chat was “why didn’t you tell people what to do while the event was running instead of waiting until after it failed?”

I think you misunderstood what I was saying. As in for “showing the ropes” I wasn’t talking about HoT maps. I personally think that for any new player starting the game, it feels motivating to see players appearing as “vets” (due to their skin) still go back in core tyria. And that could only really happen if Anet devs, in the first place, did not make HoT content a carbon copy of how core maps operated.

I’m still not understanding – you think that vets wouldn’t go back to core Tyria no matter what style the expansion maps were? We still have dailies…

Didn’t ArenaNet kinda tell us they didn’t want the Vets in core when they killed the Champ Trains?

If memory serves me correctly folks were whining about the trains (Vocal Minority) so they killed it. Seems like the maps started losing population shortly afterwards.

Lite Ning Strike.5203:

Djinn.9245:

flog.3485:

Djinn.9245:

flog.3485:

The thing is, if they made HoT as easy as core maps, then all the people would just deplete core content and all the new players would have been leveling in empty maps with no veteran around to show them how the game operates.

No matter what style the expansion maps were, players would still be playing in those maps as well as core Tyria.

And in HoT there is no guarantee of a vet player showing anyone the ropes. I have been in several failed AB metas lately where after it failed many “vets” criticized people doing things wrong. My comment in Map Chat was “why didn’t you tell people what to do while the event was running instead of waiting until after it failed?”

I think you misunderstood what I was saying. As in for “showing the ropes” I wasn’t talking about HoT maps. I personally think that for any new player starting the game, it feels motivating to see players appearing as “vets” (due to their skin) still go back in core tyria. And that could only really happen if Anet devs, in the first place, did not make HoT content a carbon copy of how core maps operated.

I’m still not understanding – you think that vets wouldn’t go back to core Tyria no matter what style the expansion maps were? We still have dailies…

Didn’t ArenaNet kinda tell us they didn’t want the Vets in core when they killed the Champ Trains?

If memory serves me correctly folks were whining about the trains (Vocal Minority) so they killed it. Seems like the maps started losing population shortly afterwards.

And that’s a good thing. First of all they didn’t kill champ trains. They killed the Queendale champ train. They made zero changes to the Frostgorge champ train.

I think the Queendale champ train should have never existed at all. It was a bad thing for new players not a good thing.

I saw a guy once in Lornar’s Pass come into the zone and say where’s the train, because he leveled in Queensdale and didn’t know the game at all. That’s not the face to show new people.

The zone population was artificially increased by the champ train and it went back to normal. That’s a good thing. Still plenty of people roaming around Queensdale.

Lite Ning Strike.5203:

Djinn.9245:

flog.3485:

Djinn.9245:

flog.3485:

The thing is, if they made HoT as easy as core maps, then all the people would just deplete core content and all the new players would have been leveling in empty maps with no veteran around to show them how the game operates.

No matter what style the expansion maps were, players would still be playing in those maps as well as core Tyria.

And in HoT there is no guarantee of a vet player showing anyone the ropes. I have been in several failed AB metas lately where after it failed many “vets” criticized people doing things wrong. My comment in Map Chat was “why didn’t you tell people what to do while the event was running instead of waiting until after it failed?”

I think you misunderstood what I was saying. As in for “showing the ropes” I wasn’t talking about HoT maps. I personally think that for any new player starting the game, it feels motivating to see players appearing as “vets” (due to their skin) still go back in core tyria. And that could only really happen if Anet devs, in the first place, did not make HoT content a carbon copy of how core maps operated.

I’m still not understanding – you think that vets wouldn’t go back to core Tyria no matter what style the expansion maps were? We still have dailies…

Didn’t ArenaNet kinda tell us they didn’t want the Vets in core when they killed the Champ Trains?

If memory serves me correctly folks were whining about the trains (Vocal Minority) so they killed it. Seems like the maps started losing population shortly afterwards.

They certainly didn’t want the Champ Train, but that isn’t the same as not wanting vets. By having dailies in core maps they do invite everyone to go back. But because events are spread throughout the map, instead of everyone going to a single champ, it is less toxic.

Lite Ning Strike.5203:

Djinn.9245:

flog.3485:

Djinn.9245:

flog.3485:

The thing is, if they made HoT as easy as core maps, then all the people would just deplete core content and all the new players would have been leveling in empty maps with no veteran around to show them how the game operates.

No matter what style the expansion maps were, players would still be playing in those maps as well as core Tyria.

And in HoT there is no guarantee of a vet player showing anyone the ropes. I have been in several failed AB metas lately where after it failed many “vets” criticized people doing things wrong. My comment in Map Chat was “why didn’t you tell people what to do while the event was running instead of waiting until after it failed?”

I think you misunderstood what I was saying. As in for “showing the ropes” I wasn’t talking about HoT maps. I personally think that for any new player starting the game, it feels motivating to see players appearing as “vets” (due to their skin) still go back in core tyria. And that could only really happen if Anet devs, in the first place, did not make HoT content a carbon copy of how core maps operated.

I’m still not understanding – you think that vets wouldn’t go back to core Tyria no matter what style the expansion maps were? We still have dailies…

Didn’t ArenaNet kinda tell us they didn’t want the Vets in core when they killed the Champ Trains?

If memory serves me correctly folks were whining about the trains (Vocal Minority) so they killed it. Seems like the maps started losing population shortly afterwards.

Hmm if you take a look at our current situation, we now have bloodstone crazed foes, champion and legendary bandits and leyline events appearing. So yes I still think devs want vets to go in the core levelling zones.

Djinn.9245:

flog.3485:

Djinn.9245:

flog.3485:

The thing is, if they made HoT as easy as core maps, then all the people would just deplete core content and all the new players would have been leveling in empty maps with no veteran around to show them how the game operates.

No matter what style the expansion maps were, players would still be playing in those maps as well as core Tyria.

And in HoT there is no guarantee of a vet player showing anyone the ropes. I have been in several failed AB metas lately where after it failed many “vets” criticized people doing things wrong. My comment in Map Chat was “why didn’t you tell people what to do while the event was running instead of waiting until after it failed?”

I think you misunderstood what I was saying. As in for “showing the ropes” I wasn’t talking about HoT maps. I personally think that for any new player starting the game, it feels motivating to see players appearing as “vets” (due to their skin) still go back in core tyria. And that could only really happen if Anet devs, in the first place, did not make HoT content a carbon copy of how core maps operated.

I’m still not understanding – you think that vets wouldn’t go back to core Tyria no matter what style the expansion maps were? We still have dailies…

Yeah kinda because vets would have moved on to the next profitable zones released, but only if it was the same as core tyria. Ofc it is only an opinion.

April.2468:

I have recently come back after playing at launch but was busy in a certain other mmo and dropped the game, GW2 has always been installed though and kept updated as I knew I would go back when I was done with raiding etc in wow.

I finally leveled my ranger 80 and have been blown away by the game and sad I did not stick with the game originally, finished the main story and spent a fair bit on gems expanding inventory and buying living season 2 and I also bought HoT before I had finished around level 60, I was about to put down on a second game, my wife loves the original and for a non game player, she has banged some serious hours into the original, she just loves the world completion side of it and the hearts, in turn she has got my daughter interested as well and it has turned into a family affair on a evening which has been great.

My hardcore days are long left behind in wow and this is why I came back, the original game is brilliant for the casual solo player or just playing with my family and we have fun doing it which has been amazing, I cant thank Anet enough for this.

I decided to skip the living story season 2 to get my gliding sorted and then go back and do it, my initial impression of HoT is wtf as it really does flip the game and changes to something totally different.

HoT is just frustration and not fun, you just get on with it the best you can and grind it out, it forces you to change play style but not to one that’s enjoyable or fun and again its just more frustration after playing 80 levels a certain way, a lot of it is also based on the grouping of players which more often and not I find my self in overflow maps with not enough to complete the main events which again is just wasting precious play time, and creating boredom.

I would stick it out if the wife would carry on playing but she has no interest in HoT after seeing me play it and I guess we will all be moving on to a different game or to wow once she hits 80.

For me HoT just removes all the things I love about the original game, it seems rushed and badly thought out, it seems it was designed for the few and not the many.

I thought I would report back now I have now completed HoT, I have full map completion on all 4 maps and have finished the main story line and the world events, just going back now to complete LS2, from this I have 65 mastery points, I cant be bothered with event/race type mastery events as again i find them more frustrating than fun to do.

It is also a bit backwords, why do I have to unlock mastery points to make the maps playable, this just seems wrong to me, and the main reason I no longer play wow after 10 years is I could not face another grind to unlock flying in legion having done just that in wod, its just introduced grind as they can think of nothing else to fill the content gaps.

My wife definitely wont play through it after hearing me shout at the screen so much lol and I do believe a lot of the content designed to be challenging just crosses the line in to frustration far too often, over mobbed and far too many cripple effects, barrage which was my fave skill is pretty much rendered useless due to having to dance around so much the mobs like mushrooms and snipers make even exploring a frustrating experience due to some places being over mobbed, the main issue is its work, you have to be thinking far too much and while some find this fun I find it more like work and not enjoyable after a 10 hour day doing real work.

What I do like about HoT and absolutely love are the world events on all 4 maps, these are incredibly fun to do unless if you are not stuck on a over flow map with a small team.

I really do hope the next expansion is more like gw2 part one, these multi level maze maps I can stand for a experiment/ expansion but if they continue with this style than its not for me, drytop and tangled dephs are just terrible.

They are a lot of things I really love about the game, but equally they are a lot of things I hate, but I might hang about till more information about the expansion comes out, if it is more like the original and nice big open maps to explore I will be there, if its more the same like HoT then I will be moving on.

Poisonedpawn.7085:

New to guild wars 2. Been playing the last week leveling up a warrior through the main story line and base game. I was having a blast, great story line and fun interactions. I even enjoyed the new take on some of the quests and how you could do a quest a few different ways. Last night I gave Zhaitan a beat down and was hyped to jump into the next story line and expansion. I had NO problems at all through the main game.

Then today happened. I get into the new heart of thorns zones and right away the first thing that hit me is how GOD AWEFUL and annoying the layout and design of the zone was. this set a horrible tone. I get that it was trying to force the use of the glider and whatever bogus mushroom crap is in the game but it was FAR too forced. Its more annoying than its fun.

I start up my SOLO play story line. Let me say this again.. SOLO PLAY Story line. To find out that not only do the NPCs get absolutely annihilated leaving you alone to fight 15+ mobs, but you yourself get zerg gibbed in 2 seconds. Yes i dodged, Yes i tried to avoid everything. At some point you have to try and hit them and thats when you get gibbed.

After dying and grinding my way through a few solo missions and getting to the point where I had to defend the frog village only to once again have every single npc dead within seconds and dying over and over i gave up.

The SOLO PLAY story line is simply not designed properly. Its garbage. And thats it for me, I was COMPLETELY enjoying the game .. right up until the expansion. Solo play is just not balanced properly.

I always wondered why more people dont play this game. Now i know.

Hi there! Rpgs in general are meant to get more challenging and hot content is kind of meant to be grouped, sometimes it helps for solo stories to be grouped as well, but as others say you need to make sure you learn your profession, no mmorpg is not going to be easy mode all the way through because of no challenge/reward will get dull very quickly:)

Maybe we can help you, what profession are you playing?

Djinn.9245:

Lite Ning Strike.5203:

Djinn.9245:

flog.3485:

Djinn.9245:

flog.3485:

The thing is, if they made HoT as easy as core maps, then all the people would just deplete core content and all the new players would have been leveling in empty maps with no veteran around to show them how the game operates.

No matter what style the expansion maps were, players would still be playing in those maps as well as core Tyria.

And in HoT there is no guarantee of a vet player showing anyone the ropes. I have been in several failed AB metas lately where after it failed many “vets” criticized people doing things wrong. My comment in Map Chat was “why didn’t you tell people what to do while the event was running instead of waiting until after it failed?”

I think you misunderstood what I was saying. As in for “showing the ropes” I wasn’t talking about HoT maps. I personally think that for any new player starting the game, it feels motivating to see players appearing as “vets” (due to their skin) still go back in core tyria. And that could only really happen if Anet devs, in the first place, did not make HoT content a carbon copy of how core maps operated.

I’m still not understanding – you think that vets wouldn’t go back to core Tyria no matter what style the expansion maps were? We still have dailies…

Didn’t ArenaNet kinda tell us they didn’t want the Vets in core when they killed the Champ Trains?

If memory serves me correctly folks were whining about the trains (Vocal Minority) so they killed it. Seems like the maps started losing population shortly afterwards.

They certainly didn’t want the Champ Train, but that isn’t the same as not wanting vets. By having dailies in core maps they do invite everyone to go back. But because events are spread throughout the map, instead of everyone going to a single champ, it is less toxic.

Well I afraid that’s what happened, and to be honest myself and my friends and Guild mates only go through there when we level a new character. Even with a few more events thrown in it just isn’t worthwhile.

Sorry not trying to be negative but when I have time to play I want to maximize my return for time used.

I’ll redo a few dungeons 20 times before I will roam in the low level maps, just not worthwhile. Make it worthwhile and more Vets will return, until then…………………………………

Vayne.8563:

Lite Ning Strike.5203:

Djinn.9245:

flog.3485:

Djinn.9245:

flog.3485:

The thing is, if they made HoT as easy as core maps, then all the people would just deplete core content and all the new players would have been leveling in empty maps with no veteran around to show them how the game operates.

No matter what style the expansion maps were, players would still be playing in those maps as well as core Tyria.

And in HoT there is no guarantee of a vet player showing anyone the ropes. I have been in several failed AB metas lately where after it failed many “vets” criticized people doing things wrong. My comment in Map Chat was “why didn’t you tell people what to do while the event was running instead of waiting until after it failed?”

I think you misunderstood what I was saying. As in for “showing the ropes” I wasn’t talking about HoT maps. I personally think that for any new player starting the game, it feels motivating to see players appearing as “vets” (due to their skin) still go back in core tyria. And that could only really happen if Anet devs, in the first place, did not make HoT content a carbon copy of how core maps operated.

I’m still not understanding – you think that vets wouldn’t go back to core Tyria no matter what style the expansion maps were? We still have dailies…

Didn’t ArenaNet kinda tell us they didn’t want the Vets in core when they killed the Champ Trains?

If memory serves me correctly folks were whining about the trains (Vocal Minority) so they killed it. Seems like the maps started losing population shortly afterwards.

And that’s a good thing. First of all they didn’t kill champ trains. They killed the Queendale champ train. They made zero changes to the Frostgorge champ train.

I think the Queendale champ train should have never existed at all. It was a bad thing for new players not a good thing.

I saw a guy once in Lornar’s Pass come into the zone and say where’s the train, because he leveled in Queensdale and didn’t know the game at all. That’s not the face to show new people.

The zone population was artificially increased by the champ train and it went back to normal. That’s a good thing. Still plenty of people roaming around Queensdale.

Lets just agree to disagree on the Champ Train. When the guy asked about the train in Lornar’s did you explain the difference? I hope so that’s goes a lot farther in helping folks.

Most folks that are leveling don’t return to the starter areas without incentive, just the nature of the beast.

It can’t be both ways, if you want Vets make it worthwhile. If you don’t leave it like it is………

Lite Ning Strike.5203:

Djinn.9245:

Lite Ning Strike.5203:

Djinn.9245:

flog.3485:

Djinn.9245:

flog.3485:

The thing is, if they made HoT as easy as core maps, then all the people would just deplete core content and all the new players would have been leveling in empty maps with no veteran around to show them how the game operates.

No matter what style the expansion maps were, players would still be playing in those maps as well as core Tyria.

And in HoT there is no guarantee of a vet player showing anyone the ropes. I have been in several failed AB metas lately where after it failed many “vets” criticized people doing things wrong. My comment in Map Chat was “why didn’t you tell people what to do while the event was running instead of waiting until after it failed?”

I think you misunderstood what I was saying. As in for “showing the ropes” I wasn’t talking about HoT maps. I personally think that for any new player starting the game, it feels motivating to see players appearing as “vets” (due to their skin) still go back in core tyria. And that could only really happen if Anet devs, in the first place, did not make HoT content a carbon copy of how core maps operated.

I’m still not understanding – you think that vets wouldn’t go back to core Tyria no matter what style the expansion maps were? We still have dailies…

Didn’t ArenaNet kinda tell us they didn’t want the Vets in core when they killed the Champ Trains?

If memory serves me correctly folks were whining about the trains (Vocal Minority) so they killed it. Seems like the maps started losing population shortly afterwards.

They certainly didn’t want the Champ Train, but that isn’t the same as not wanting vets. By having dailies in core maps they do invite everyone to go back. But because events are spread throughout the map, instead of everyone going to a single champ, it is less toxic.

Well I afraid that’s what happened, and to be honest myself and my friends and Guild mates only go through there when we level a new character. Even with a few more events thrown in it just isn’t worthwhile.

Sorry not trying to be negative but when I have time to play I want to maximize my return for time used.

I’ll redo a few dungeons 20 times before I will roam in the low level maps, just not worthwhile. Make it worthwhile and more Vets will return, until then…………………………………

they shouldnt be trying to get vets in starter zones, unless they like newbie playstyle

Do you really want them to incentivize the most hardcore people to hang out in the lowest easiest zones?

Just because you’re 80 doesn’t mean you’re good, geared, invested, and/or skillful.

Especially when they’re literally giving out free max-levels and tomes like candy.

Why they give free 80 lvl boost when game is too dificult and hard understand?
havent played GW2 in 4 year and game is very overwhelming with all currents,loot types, million merchants in main citys.

agree with OP, new zones are awfull. i dont enjoy at all moving in new zones.

Lite Ning Strike.5203:

Vayne.8563:

Lite Ning Strike.5203:

Djinn.9245:

flog.3485:

Djinn.9245:

flog.3485:

The thing is, if they made HoT as easy as core maps, then all the people would just deplete core content and all the new players would have been leveling in empty maps with no veteran around to show them how the game operates.

No matter what style the expansion maps were, players would still be playing in those maps as well as core Tyria.

And in HoT there is no guarantee of a vet player showing anyone the ropes. I have been in several failed AB metas lately where after it failed many “vets” criticized people doing things wrong. My comment in Map Chat was “why didn’t you tell people what to do while the event was running instead of waiting until after it failed?”

I think you misunderstood what I was saying. As in for “showing the ropes” I wasn’t talking about HoT maps. I personally think that for any new player starting the game, it feels motivating to see players appearing as “vets” (due to their skin) still go back in core tyria. And that could only really happen if Anet devs, in the first place, did not make HoT content a carbon copy of how core maps operated.

I’m still not understanding – you think that vets wouldn’t go back to core Tyria no matter what style the expansion maps were? We still have dailies…

Didn’t ArenaNet kinda tell us they didn’t want the Vets in core when they killed the Champ Trains?

If memory serves me correctly folks were whining about the trains (Vocal Minority) so they killed it. Seems like the maps started losing population shortly afterwards.

And that’s a good thing. First of all they didn’t kill champ trains. They killed the Queendale champ train. They made zero changes to the Frostgorge champ train.

I think the Queendale champ train should have never existed at all. It was a bad thing for new players not a good thing.

I saw a guy once in Lornar’s Pass come into the zone and say where’s the train, because he leveled in Queensdale and didn’t know the game at all. That’s not the face to show new people.

The zone population was artificially increased by the champ train and it went back to normal. That’s a good thing. Still plenty of people roaming around Queensdale.

Lets just agree to disagree on the Champ Train. When the guy asked about the train in Lornar’s did you explain the difference? I hope so that’s goes a lot farther in helping folks.

Most folks that are leveling don’t return to the starter areas without incentive, just the nature of the beast.

It can’t be both ways, if you want Vets make it worthwhile. If you don’t leave it like it is………

Actually I don’t think they want GLOBS of vets in starter zones 1-15. But they do have reasons for vets to go to other zones. I know iron and softwood is a reason to go to 15-25 zones and many vets have farming routes.

Legendary collections require vets to do content in lower level areas.

Guild missions are also in older zones.

Current events are in older zones.

The Living Story Season 2 takes us to some older zones, including open world quests in Iron Marches, Diessa Plateau, and other zones.

And of course some people will go for world bosses, even just Teq or Jormag. And many of the events in older zones, like Fields of Ruins give you a chance to get items like Sam from the Ogre Wars event chain. I have guildies that do that content, or the Eye of Zhaitan quest chain from time to time.

There are reasons for people to go into old zones to do content. That’s very very different from the champ train.

Fortunately the expansion zones are well enough populated to get everything done I need to do, for much the same reasons. Collections, legendary weapons, achievements, or just fun.

phys.7689:

Lite Ning Strike.5203:

Djinn.9245:

Lite Ning Strike.5203:

Djinn.9245:

flog.3485:

Djinn.9245:

flog.3485:

The thing is, if they made HoT as easy as core maps, then all the people would just deplete core content and all the new players would have been leveling in empty maps with no veteran around to show them how the game operates.

No matter what style the expansion maps were, players would still be playing in those maps as well as core Tyria.

And in HoT there is no guarantee of a vet player showing anyone the ropes. I have been in several failed AB metas lately where after it failed many “vets” criticized people doing things wrong. My comment in Map Chat was “why didn’t you tell people what to do while the event was running instead of waiting until after it failed?”

I think you misunderstood what I was saying. As in for “showing the ropes” I wasn’t talking about HoT maps. I personally think that for any new player starting the game, it feels motivating to see players appearing as “vets” (due to their skin) still go back in core tyria. And that could only really happen if Anet devs, in the first place, did not make HoT content a carbon copy of how core maps operated.

I’m still not understanding – you think that vets wouldn’t go back to core Tyria no matter what style the expansion maps were? We still have dailies…

Didn’t ArenaNet kinda tell us they didn’t want the Vets in core when they killed the Champ Trains?

If memory serves me correctly folks were whining about the trains (Vocal Minority) so they killed it. Seems like the maps started losing population shortly afterwards.

They certainly didn’t want the Champ Train, but that isn’t the same as not wanting vets. By having dailies in core maps they do invite everyone to go back. But because events are spread throughout the map, instead of everyone going to a single champ, it is less toxic.

Well I afraid that’s what happened, and to be honest myself and my friends and Guild mates only go through there when we level a new character. Even with a few more events thrown in it just isn’t worthwhile.

Sorry not trying to be negative but when I have time to play I want to maximize my return for time used.

I’ll redo a few dungeons 20 times before I will roam in the low level maps, just not worthwhile. Make it worthwhile and more Vets will return, until then…………………………………

they shouldnt be trying to get vets in starter zones, unless they like newbie playstyle

Do you really want them to incentivize the most hardcore people to hang out in the lowest easiest zones?

I was actually giving my response to Djinn in regards to them not wanting Champ Trains but wanting Vets to stay in the areas.

All I was saying is “if” they want Vets in the area they need to make it worthwhile for the Vet otherwise it will not happen, unless (as Vayne mentioned) the Vet is passing through in need of Mats for crafting something or doing dailies and Guild Missions.

Lite Ning Strike.5203:

phys.7689:

Lite Ning Strike.5203:

Djinn.9245:

Lite Ning Strike.5203:

Djinn.9245:

flog.3485:

Djinn.9245:

flog.3485:

The thing is, if they made HoT as easy as core maps, then all the people would just deplete core content and all the new players would have been leveling in empty maps with no veteran around to show them how the game operates.

No matter what style the expansion maps were, players would still be playing in those maps as well as core Tyria.

And in HoT there is no guarantee of a vet player showing anyone the ropes. I have been in several failed AB metas lately where after it failed many “vets” criticized people doing things wrong. My comment in Map Chat was “why didn’t you tell people what to do while the event was running instead of waiting until after it failed?”

I think you misunderstood what I was saying. As in for “showing the ropes” I wasn’t talking about HoT maps. I personally think that for any new player starting the game, it feels motivating to see players appearing as “vets” (due to their skin) still go back in core tyria. And that could only really happen if Anet devs, in the first place, did not make HoT content a carbon copy of how core maps operated.

I’m still not understanding – you think that vets wouldn’t go back to core Tyria no matter what style the expansion maps were? We still have dailies…

Didn’t ArenaNet kinda tell us they didn’t want the Vets in core when they killed the Champ Trains?

If memory serves me correctly folks were whining about the trains (Vocal Minority) so they killed it. Seems like the maps started losing population shortly afterwards.

They certainly didn’t want the Champ Train, but that isn’t the same as not wanting vets. By having dailies in core maps they do invite everyone to go back. But because events are spread throughout the map, instead of everyone going to a single champ, it is less toxic.

Well I afraid that’s what happened, and to be honest myself and my friends and Guild mates only go through there when we level a new character. Even with a few more events thrown in it just isn’t worthwhile.

Sorry not trying to be negative but when I have time to play I want to maximize my return for time used.

I’ll redo a few dungeons 20 times before I will roam in the low level maps, just not worthwhile. Make it worthwhile and more Vets will return, until then…………………………………

they shouldnt be trying to get vets in starter zones, unless they like newbie playstyle

Do you really want them to incentivize the most hardcore people to hang out in the lowest easiest zones?

I was actually giving my response to Djinn in regards to them not wanting Champ Trains but wanting Vets to stay in the areas.

All I was saying is “if” they want Vets in the area they need to make it worthwhile for the Vet otherwise it will not happen, unless (as Vayne mentioned) the Vet is passing through in need of Mats for crafting something or doing dailies and Guild Missions.

Well there are far more vets than new people in my opinion so they probably don’t want vets to stay in those areas forever. What they have now, is a parade of people who are vets in those areas for short periods of time. Source, I’m often in those zones and virtually always see other vets on those zones.

Of course people who make a lot of legendaries spend more time in those zones, because they have to world complete on more than one character.

The HoT zones have people in them for similar reasons.

Yes, I just finished another round of world completing, and I bump into vets doing the same thing.

I think this might be the end of topic but I feel with all thats been said its clear that GW2 core was creative and really interesting in all aspects as it continued to get better. It has a little something for everyone, WvW and PvP were clearly better pre HOT. They had dungeons and fractals for group activities. The introduction of guild missions later (as well as fractals) and a interactive Living Story which i found really awesome.

HOT is one of those you either like it or you dont. Which is why there is a huge split.

Labjax.2465:

Vayne.8563:

Labjax.2465:

Oh and BTW, I did have a time frame a few days ago (I think it was like evening-ish on a weekday) where I was trying to do events in AB and could not find people, like at all. Taxiing was pretty much dead under that section. I tried multiple times telling people I was doing pylons in map chat… got maybe 3-4 people in total in the 20-30 minutes I tried for. Tried tagging up several times, including trying queuing up in LFG to try to get people to join me.

Was mind-boggingly dead. When I finally just gave up after it took a handful of us something like 20 minutes to activate one pylon, I peeked around in LFG and did notice that TD seemed to be at the height of its meta, so maybe that was pulling in most of the active players in HoT maps. I had no idea TD was nearing that stage when I started trying to find people for pylons though, and really no way to know, without tracking the meta somehow or going to TD myself. Plus I didn’t really want to be TD at that moment.

So I mean, dead zones are not bigfoot. They are certainly something that exists in some capacity. Granted, in the times I’ve played since I came back, that is the worst I’ve seen it when I was trying to do events.

Edit: Meant AB, not VB. Wrong initials.

The meta schedule is found on timer sights like gw2timer.com which is the one I use. It’s no different than tracking world boss events. I wouldn’t bother doing fire ele until it was going to be up. That’s just how it is.

Thing is though, in this case, I wasn’t wanting to do “whatever event other people are on now.” I wanted to do AB. And I couldn’t find people for doing AB. Being able to find somewhere in the realm of 5-10 people total, in 30+ minutes, with various attempts to get people (and some of those 5-10 trickling away… I don’t remember how many there were at every point… I just know when I gave up, there were maybe 4 of us tops and most of the time, there was no more than 2-3, including myself).

Point is, during that time-frame, the map was definitely what most people call “dead” for doing events.

If I have to wait for a meta timer on a flagship HoT map to find people to do events that are happening on that map, I’d rank that pretty much as population problems in that moment.

So I’m a bit confused by your response. I’m not sure if you’re trying to respond to what I said, or just talking about the timer as a separate thing.

That’s like saying I want to do the fire elemental when it’s not up. At any rate, I often do pylon events in AB and never had the problem you had even once. Not one single time. There was always someone around. Shrugs.

Vayne.8563:

My answer to all of this was to find a couple of friends. 90% plus of the hot maps can be done by a group of 3.

And this is the biggest problem I have with HoT maps.

I started playing GW2 because party play wasn’t required. Yes, you could make parties, but only because you liked the closer association that gave. Dungeons were the only place were parties where required. In all other areas you could do it alone. Having others around might have made it easier and more fun, but it wasn’t required.

Fast forward to HoT: parties are mandatory to even get the hero points, let alone events or most of the personal achievements.

I don’t have a lot of friends and I don’t want to always ask their help if I want to do something in HoT. They might be doing something else or just don’t feel like going to that one area/help with that one personal story bit.

LadyRhonwyn.2501:

Vayne.8563:

My answer to all of this was to find a couple of friends. 90% plus of the hot maps can be done by a group of 3.

And this is the biggest problem I have with HoT maps.

I started playing GW2 because party play wasn’t required. Yes, you could make parties, but only because you liked the closer association that gave. Dungeons were the only place were parties where required. In all other areas you could do it alone. Having others around might have made it easier and more fun, but it wasn’t required.

Fast forward to HoT: parties are mandatory to even get the hero points, let alone events or most of the personal achievements.

I don’t have a lot of friends and I don’t want to always ask their help if I want to do something in HoT. They might be doing something else or just don’t feel like going to that one area/help with that one personal story bit.

And party play isn’t required. It’s like the temples in Orr. I can’t solo them but I don’t have to be in a party to do them either. It’s no different.

Vayne.8563:

LadyRhonwyn.2501:

Vayne.8563:

My answer to all of this was to find a couple of friends. 90% plus of the hot maps can be done by a group of 3.

And this is the biggest problem I have with HoT maps.

I started playing GW2 because party play wasn’t required. Yes, you could make parties, but only because you liked the closer association that gave. Dungeons were the only place were parties where required. In all other areas you could do it alone. Having others around might have made it easier and more fun, but it wasn’t required.

Fast forward to HoT: parties are mandatory to even get the hero points, let alone events or most of the personal achievements.

I don’t have a lot of friends and I don’t want to always ask their help if I want to do something in HoT. They might be doing something else or just don’t feel like going to that one area/help with that one personal story bit.

And party play isn’t required. It’s like the temples in Orr. I can’t solo them but I don’t have to be in a party to do them either. It’s no different.

Really? No. Group events wherein most of the rewards in a given zone are found is not the same as wandering around a map trying to get HC’s, Vistas or PoI’s.

IndigoSundown.5419:

Vayne.8563:

LadyRhonwyn.2501:

Vayne.8563:

My answer to all of this was to find a couple of friends. 90% plus of the hot maps can be done by a group of 3.

And this is the biggest problem I have with HoT maps.

I started playing GW2 because party play wasn’t required. Yes, you could make parties, but only because you liked the closer association that gave. Dungeons were the only place were parties where required. In all other areas you could do it alone. Having others around might have made it easier and more fun, but it wasn’t required.

Fast forward to HoT: parties are mandatory to even get the hero points, let alone events or most of the personal achievements.

I don’t have a lot of friends and I don’t want to always ask their help if I want to do something in HoT. They might be doing something else or just don’t feel like going to that one area/help with that one personal story bit.

And party play isn’t required. It’s like the temples in Orr. I can’t solo them but I don’t have to be in a party to do them either. It’s no different.

Really? No. Group events wherein most of the rewards in a given zone are found is not the same as wandering around a map trying to get HC’s, Vistas or PoI’s.

I think what Vayne means is that many of these events can be done by a single player. If you’re the sort of player who has little difficulty soloing a champion or charging right into an army of mordrem, then HoT doesn’t seem all that restrictive.

The issue, of course, is that players have different skill levels and tolerance for certain types of gameplay. Obviously, players like Vayne and myself love soloing champs, and even if a group event is annoying to solo, since we have little difficulty staying alive we know that if we start working on an event chances are good that other players will happen along and join in.

Different story for players who can’t do that. Instead of hanging in there long enough for others to show up and join in, they just die repeatedly and are forced to waypoint and run back. Frustrating!

Worse, the players who might have stopped to help could be in the same boat, so they aren’t likely to start on the event themselves and thus it seems to both players in this scenario that HoT events are too difficult and nobody is willing to help. Not a fun experience.

But what can you do? Players like myself genuinely enjoy HoT content. It wouldn’t kill the game for me to make some changes that appeal to players less inclined to enjoy HoT, but some of what we discuss in these threads would be a return to core Tyria style content.

For me, that’s a deal-breaker. I didn’t play GW2 prior to HoT, and I’m fairly certain I wouldn’t have enjoyed it. But for me, HoT was a big hit! How do you reconcile that with some of the opinions on this forum?

I really love soloing the HP’s in HoT, u can do it with pretty much any class by experimenting on skills/traits and its very fun messing around with those.

AliamRationem.5172:

I didn’t play GW2 prior to HoT, and I’m fairly certain I wouldn’t have enjoyed it. But for me, HoT was a big hit! How do you reconcile that with some of the opinions on this forum?

Many (most?) of the threads complaining about HoT are from people who played GW2 before HoT like me. I really enjoyed GW2, it was the next MMO I was going to stay with long-term. When HoT was released, I was shocked. I HATED Verdant Brink. The entire experience there was horrible as I died and died – 50% of the time because I didn’t have the new Masteries. My solution was to get out of VB so I died my way across VB to Auric Basin. Auric Basin was better since it wasn’t so vertical, but many of the mobs were worse with more rapters, and adding so many more smokescales, arrowheads, etc. But while it was highly populated, AB is what saved me from quitting GW2. I eventually progressed into Tangled Depths and again was shocked: something worse than VB! I again died my way through TD in order to get to Dragon Stand. And of course there I was stymied as I couldn’t really do much of anything unless the Meta was active.

So HoT was almost a complete disaster for me. I left it after only progressing about 1/4 through the story and only returned because a couple Guildies came back and wanted to do the Story.

There’s another thread on the forums about Anet changing GW2 with extremes. HoT is a perfect example of that. If we had been introduced to the extreme vertical more gradually, and the expansion had more of a variety of maps, I would have liked it much better.