Guild Wars 2

Ohoni.6057:

Maybe, but then I would expect each raid attempt to include multiple sections with their own rules, so chances are that players who are not good “all-rounders” will have parts that they struggle with in all raids, they might get past the first bit easy but struggle with the second, or struggle with the first but if they can get by it the second is easy.

Pretty much up in the air at this point.

Ohoni.6057:

Yes, that is WAY too much time invested to chalk up to “oh, stop complaining and just do it.”

6 hours is too much? Well maybe, 3 might be the most I expect any given person really going for the raid-based armor, that’s over an entire week mind you. A week of gameplay, and only 3 hours put towards raiding, in which that 3 hours might start becoming less and less as the raid group gets better and faster at the content.

Ohoni.6057:

Yes. I probably spent a grand total of less than six hours working on my Legendary. I mean, if you’re counting World Completion that took longer, but 1. it was something I would have done even without Legendary weapons (and yes, I support them providing alternatives for those that don’t enjoy world completion), and 2. I did it over a period of about two months, about a year or so before I made my Legendary, and only did about a half-hour to an hour of map clearing per day, alongside other activities. There is no time in the past three years where I’ve spent more than about three hours in the game in a single sitting. I honestly doubt that most GW2 players have spent more than four hours in game at a time, aside from very special events.

You need to include all the time spent on getting the items, even as you were doing various other activities. ALL of those resources you might have been gaining while World-Boss Training, some SPvP here and there, ambient critter killing to get that Powerful Blood. THOSE activities that you might not have considered part of your Legendary Weapon Crafting at the time didn’t take you a solid 6 hours to make. 2000 T6 mats alone won’t be earned in 6 hours, unless you swiped that card for gems.

Ohoni.6057:

Sure they do, they still look the same. To most players, that’s all that matters.

See below shortly.

Ohoni.6057:

But you can gain those levels through all sorts of means, exploration, questing, grinding mobs, crafting, etc. Options. That’s all I’ve asked for, not that I shouldn’t have to earn the thing through hard work, just that the method of hard work should be flexible.

I could have chosen a better example, but my point is that the underlining condition of the weapon was that you needed to put some effort into leveling, something some players might really despise and not want to do. Would you extend the same level-exclusive weapon to those players who just want everything at level 1, much like how you want a raid-exclusive weapon to players who don’t want to raid?

Ohoni.6057:

They aren’t the only ones who matter. If their wishes are for other people to not have things, then those other people’s wishes should typically supersede their own. Hardcore PKs want to be able to slaughter new players outside starting towns, they can’t be allowed that because it would make those other players’ experiences worse.

Apples and oranges, Open-World PvP is different because a player is directly interfering with the experience of another player, not indirectly like wielding an exclusive weapon or armor from a raid the former really does not want to do. There’s no way then that one player’s wishes supersede another, especially when their wishes for certain content to exist that drops exclusive rewards hasn’t existed yet.

Ohoni.6057:

Yes, but there are dozens of ways to earn gold in the game, so there are dozens of ways to “earn” infinite light. That’s what I’m asking for, multiple methods of earning Legendary Armor.

That’s fine to ask for multiple methods for Legendary Armor itself, but the legendary armor skin that comes from this upcoming Raid should be unique and exclusive to that Raid. If Arenanet has a Heart of Thorns Legendary Armor Recipe drop (or better yet, sell from a mastery vendor) in the open world that players can craft, I am all for that skin being unique in its look as well.

Ohoni.6057:

That’s very sad. I feel the exact opposite. I couldn’t care less whether someone has a particularly hard to come by piece, all I care is that they have the right combination of pieces and dyes to make it work for them. I just complimented someone on their appearance in game, but as near as I can tell it was all pretty common stuff, it just looked great on her.

Certainly there’s a certain appeal to fashion wars, I am always going through it. But I am always wanting something that makes me stand out, more so than just an outfit or the same Luminescent Shoulder piece. I am already considering how to get those exclusive Legendary Back Pieces which not only look amazing, but carry a certain unique look and effect not seen yet in the game, and I know those players who have those pieces put a lot of time into whatever mode they worked at to earn those pieces.

It is a bit sad for players wanting to stand out more. These days the only thing amusing me would be all the occasion ‘Joker’ and ‘Hulk’ looks.

Ohoni.6057:

Source?

Continued from above.

Same source you have been using this whole time. I said ‘Major’ rather than ‘Majority’ because I don’t think there is a 50%+ group of players really wanting one thing or another. It’s probably more like 28, 22, 18, 16- etc. Player interests are all over the place, I ran into someone today at the TP that I recognized from meeting about 14 hours ago still there in the same spot. He probably logged at some point however I asked him what he’s been doing the whole time, 10 minutes of back and forth later amounted to me finding out people spend hours in this game just doing buy and sell orders as well as investments. Going to assume he’s probably part of that sub 1% portion.

Titles can be exclusive and weapons/armor not? Why? Because you don’t like tiles but you like weapons/armors?

No, because titles don’t change your avatar’s appearance. I should have thought that much obvious.

WVW has exclusive weapons, Spvp has exclusive armors and back, SAB has exclusive weapons, Tequatl & Wurm have armor and weapons, Fractal has exclusive weapons, SW has exclusive armors etc.

So you complained about that at the same way or you are complaining for raid ONLY because it’s a LEGENDARY skin?

Both.

I complained about all those things, and would like to see them changed, but attaching Legendary armor to raid-type encounters is doubly bad.

6 hours is too much?

6 hours total? Not really. 6 hours over the course of a single week, dedicated to a single task? That’s really pushing it. 6 hours over the course of a week, dedicated to a single task, and repeated for dozens of weeks? No. 6 hours in a single gaming session? Kitten that.

But then 60 hours spent doing various tasks all over Tyria, in pursuit of the goal? That I’d be totally fine with. Maybe more. I just want it to be an activity that I actually want to do (and want that same choice for everyone else).

A week of gameplay, and only 3 hours put towards raiding, in which that 3 hours might start becoming less and less as the raid group gets better and faster at the content.

Maybe, if it’s split up over 2-3 days, and the endgoal is well in sight, not months away.

You need to include all the time spent on getting the items, even as you were doing various other activities.

I could, but the thing is, that was doing stuff all over Tyria, which is the system I want to see here. If that’s the system we’re looking at, then I’m fine with it taking a while. But if you’re saying “add up all the minute elements that it took to make a Legendary weapon, and put ALL that time into just raiding,” then no, sorry, kitten that. Kitten that with Kraitkin in the kitten.

I could have chosen a better example, but my point is that the underlining condition of the weapon was that you needed to put some effort into leveling, something some players might really despise and not want to do. Would you extend the same level-exclusive weapon to those players who just want everything at level 1, much like how you want a raid-exclusive weapon to players who don’t want to raid?

No, but I think that’s a really bad comparison to make. You’re comparing someone who doesn’t want to expend ANY effort, to someone who is willing to do equivalent effort, but just wants options on how to do it. Leveling in this game, even to 80, includes TONS of options.

Apples and oranges, Open-World PvP is different because a player is directly interfering with the experience of another player, not indirectly like wielding an exclusive weapon or armor from a raid the former really does not want to do.

I’m not saying that a player who earns the armor through raiding is “like a PK,” they are doing nothing wrong, just playing the game given, but a player that argues in favor of keeping those armors out of the hands of others, is like a PK arguing in favor of being able to slaughter newbs, it is asking for something that benefits you selfishly, that takes things away from other players. For all the claims of “same-same” people have tried to make in this thread, my position is NOT equivalent to that, it is not asking to take anything away from anyone, aside from the right to gloat over others, and I feel that’s something perfectly valid to remove.

That’s fine to ask for multiple methods for Legendary Armor itself, but the legendary armor skin that comes from this upcoming Raid should be unique and exclusive to that Raid.

Why? The Infinite Light skin that you buy using gold that you got through dungeons is no different and the one bought with gold earned through open world PvE, WvW, sPvP, resource harvesting, chest farming, story mode, map rewards, TP farming, whatever you want. It’s the SAME skin, the exact same skin, whichever method you use to earn it. Now I don’t want gold to be the best way to earn things, but it is at least better than only having one way of earning things, and “separate but equal” is NOT equal.

Ohoni.6057:

Yeah, but as much as I’m not a fan of the gold economy in this game, gold value does provide a reflection of player demand for an item. Even if an item is very rare, if players don’t want it it can’t sustain a high price. See the various Legendary Weapons that nobody actually wants and that sit at barely at or above cost. You say that the value to you is going down, and that may be true, but I see no evidence that the value is falling for the community as a whole.

A small reflection. Just take a look at which items are expensive, those who don’t drop anymore. Legendary weapons are expensive because they require a ton of materials to make, individually those materials are cheap (with exceptions) but the sheer amount needed makes the price go up. I say the value for me is going down but I don’t see any evidence that it doesn’t fall for the community as a whole. Got a source to back that up?

But it does mean that the developers should limit the point of player frustration, and having an element significantly more challenging, time consuming, and organized than typical GW2, behind which they lock some of the most desirable rewards in the game? That sounds like a textbook cause for unnecessary player frustration.

Limit player frustration. Key word: limit. If 99% of rewards are easily attainable then the player frustration is limited.

Yeah, but here’s the thing, those four traits are only important if you want to, and can, attract them all in equal numbers. My theory is that if you polled the entire GW2 population on their Bartle scores, you would find statistically low numbers of achievers and killers.

Killers maybe. But I disagree with the achievers, there are a lot of people who “compete” just on the AP leaderboards, which is achiever behavior. As I said, we don’t have much worth doing for achievers, in terms of actual content and not grinding, now that they add something that a lot of achievers might like (raids) we will see how it goes.

For all the claims of “same-same” people have tried to make in this thread, my position is NOT equivalent to that, it is not asking to take anything away from anyone, aside from the right to gloat over others, and I feel that’s something perfectly valid to remove.

But you ARE asking to take something away from others. Content value and worth. It’s obvious that you don’t understand the gamer culture, and how a subtype of gamers feels about rewards. It’s OK, you are a different type and you don’t value content itself but others do, you need to stop dismissing the other opinion and try to impose yours on others. It’s getting really annoying how your crusade tries to crush any other opinion and any opinion that isn’t yours.

You choose to ignore them completely by choosing to make the rewards in the game worthless and value-less. You need to understand that not everyone is like you and the game CAN cater to all types of players, including those who value rewards in HOW you get them and not based on how pretty they are. And the simplest way is to have a limited amount of exclusive rewards for them, keeping everyone happy.

And this isn’t about raid exclusives. The idea of having every piece of reward through any piece of content is something many gamers find completely ridiculous and de-values ALL content. It goes against basic game reward design. It might work when you are the master of a game and play with a group of friends, you might give them the rewards they like, by doing content they like, but it doesn’t work in video games at all.

Ohoni.

WVW has exclusive weapons, Spvp has exclusive armors and back, SAB has exclusive weapons, Tequatl & Wurm have armor and weapons, Fractal has exclusive weapons, SW has exclusive armors etc.

So you complained about that at the same way or you are complaining for raid ONLY because it’s a LEGENDARY skin?

Both.

I complained about all those things, and would like to see them changed, but attaching Legendary armor to raid-type encounters is doubly bad.

So you’re totally against exclusive rewards for a specific task.

I’m sorry for you dude, but videogames (luckily) doesn’t work in this way and you re in A LARGE minority.

You’re basically wasting time.

Deal with it, a lot of people like exclusive rewards and Anet shares the same vision.

Gl

Sykper.6583:

I don’t disagree at all with the prospect of people finding their ways around a difficult objective. In fact Arah P4 runners selling their spots for gold is a perfect example of this. But I doubt they will remove the novelty, the Legendary Armor whether it be for the very slight convenience of changing stats to perhaps its impressive visual effect whatever it may be will still be a good to be earned or bought. I believe Colin also mentioned how raids won’t be any different in difficulty a year from their release, they will still retain that same bar of success and failure. I’ll have to go find that clip in the Raid announcement…

Does that mean 9-man guildmates selling boss runs in LA? Perhaps. It still signifies that players are putting a solid effort to doing the work, and this could hold especially true if the raid is tightly tuned so a 1-man handicap is extremely tough! Solo Lupi runs are a prime example of how players are more than willing to hop through hoops for a challenge, but that novelty has had years to mold, these players need something new to keep them around.

Let´s follow that thought for a moment then.

To do the raid at first, you need 10 dedicated people that put tooth and nail into it. After a while, the raid kind of turns into a routine, and a new raid is not there yet. What to do? Let´s make some money from the raid. Has happened before, will happen again.

I assume now that most raids have a leader or an organizer at least.
So the raid leader has to make the difficult desicion which one of the guys has to go, or tries to go the diplomatic route by majority vote.
-If he is lucky, one of the 10 guys just wanted the raid to be done, has all he wants and vanshes from the group. Problem solved, no sweat.
-If not, everyone wants a piece of the action and the raid is screwed. If you have two players that are willing to sit out a raid but are set for the next, problem solved.
-If everyone wants to stay in and the raid leader is a good achiever but not a good socializer, things will turn ugly. Factions will be built, borders drawn. For example, Steve the socializing Achiever will want to make Maria stay because he likes her, but Killer Achiever Bob thinks she is the weak link and has to go.
-The leader is also human and will want the best for his guys, but he has difficult desicions to make now:
Will he give up on his best player that stemmed the tide multiple timers because a large faction does not really like him because he is rude in TS?
Who has to go? Friendly Maria or effective Bob?

All of this endangers the tight group maddoctor has mentioned, so do we agree that these battle groups could also impode because they are finally defeated by success? Of course this also applies to fractal groups, dungeons ansd stuff, but all of this stuff is pugable if the need arises, and raids obviously not. It takes time to jump into an organized raid group that lost a member I guess, so I see the danger of:
a) People becoming outcasts because they are deemed the weak link and the other raiders prefer the money over the member.
b) A spiral of: we are done, where is the next raid?
I am not even talking about elitism here, just about simple math. You have 10, and 1 needs to go if you want to make the money.

A small reflection. Just take a look at which items are expensive, those who don’t drop anymore. Legendary weapons are expensive because they require a ton of materials to make, individually those materials are cheap (with exceptions) but the sheer amount needed makes the price go up. I say the value for me is going down but I don’t see any evidence that it doesn’t fall for the community as a whole. Got a source to back that up?

Look, obviously an item that is more rare will have a higher price, supply and demand guarantees that, but between items that are EQUALLY rare, there are still significant price variations based on how much people desire the item. If you factor out supply, then you get only demand, and actual demand varies wildly. Consider that the Gastly Gourd Rifle was no harder to earn than the Greatsaw, and yet is priced at only 2% the price on the market.

Yes, items in low supply will have higher prices, no, that does not mean that actual demand for them is higher.

Legendary weapons are expensive because they require a ton of materials to make, individually those materials are cheap (with exceptions) but the sheer amount needed makes the price go up.

Yes, but when you look at cases like Sunrise and Twilight, Twilight is several hundred gold more expensive to buy, and yet costs several hundred gold LESS to make, so material costs don’t account for the price difference, it’s purely that more people like the appearance of Twilight than Dawn.

I say the value for me is going down but I don’t see any evidence that it doesn’t fall for the community as a whole. Got a source to back that up?

Huh? You say that even though their market cost is constantly rising, you have some vague belief that their actual value to people is going down, and you want me to prove that your wishy-washy vibe is wrong? Um, no.

Limit player frustration. Key word: limit. If 99% of rewards are easily attainable then the player frustration is limited.

No. Again, it’s entirely a subjective matter. If the 99% of items are ones that the player doesn’t much care about, but the 1% is, then you’ve limited 0% of their frustration.

Killers maybe. But I disagree with the achievers, there are a lot of people who “compete” just on the AP leaderboards, which is achiever behavior.

Oh, there are achievers, sure, killers too. I’m just saying that I think you would find them in statistically lower numbers in this game than in other games, and that of those who would consider themselves foremost A or K players, they would rate the other elements higher than serious A or K players of other games, like 40/25/20/15, rather than 70/15/10/5, and therefore care less about having their A/K potentials limited than equivalent players of other games.

You need to understand that not everyone is like you and the game CAN cater to all types of players, including those who value rewards in HOW you get them and not based on how pretty they are. And the simplest way is to have a limited amount of exclusive rewards for them, keeping everyone happy.

And you need to understand that “separate but equal” is not a solution, not even a compromise, it’s just getting exactly what you want and nothing that the other side wants. If there’s a green shirt and a blue shirt, and only some people can have the green shirt but anyone can have the blue shirt, having the blue shirt means nothing to someone that wanted the green one.

To use Legendary weapons, if they made Twilight harder to earn, and Sunrise much easier, then that would mean nothing good for a player who really wanted the starfield theme to complement their “nightscape” themed Reaper. to him, you JUST made his goal harder, and offered nothing to make his goal easier.

That’s what you say when you say “Well, they won’t let you earn the raid armor outside of raids, but maybe they could offer some other armor.” It’s perfectly possible that I’ll like the “alternate” armor better, although across three material types and six slots it’s likely I’ll prefer the raid version for at least some bits. And maybe some raiders will prefer the non-raid versions to the raid versions. I’d prefer that if they’re going to have two different armors, that they allow the players to decide which pieces they want to earn.

Torolan.5816:

Sykper.6583:

I don’t disagree at all with the prospect of people finding their ways around a difficult objective. In fact Arah P4 runners selling their spots for gold is a perfect example of this. But I doubt they will remove the novelty, the Legendary Armor whether it be for the very slight convenience of changing stats to perhaps its impressive visual effect whatever it may be will still be a good to be earned or bought. I believe Colin also mentioned how raids won’t be any different in difficulty a year from their release, they will still retain that same bar of success and failure. I’ll have to go find that clip in the Raid announcement…

Does that mean 9-man guildmates selling boss runs in LA? Perhaps. It still signifies that players are putting a solid effort to doing the work, and this could hold especially true if the raid is tightly tuned so a 1-man handicap is extremely tough! Solo Lupi runs are a prime example of how players are more than willing to hop through hoops for a challenge, but that novelty has had years to mold, these players need something new to keep them around.

Let´s follow that thought for a moment then.

To do the raid at first, you need 10 dedicated people that put tooth and nail into it. After a while, the raid kind of turns into a routine, and a new raid is not there yet. What to do? Let´s make some money from the raid. Has happened before, will happen again.

I assume now that most raids have a leader or an organizer at least.
So the raid leader has to make the difficult desicion which one of the guys has to go, or tries to go the diplomatic route by majority vote.
-If he is lucky, one of the 10 guys just wanted the raid to be done, has all he wants and vanshes from the group. Problem solved, no sweat.
-If not, everyone wants a piece of the action and the raid is screwed. If you have two players that are willing to sit out a raid but are set for the next, problem solved.
-If everyone wants to stay in and the raid leader is a good achiever but not a good socializer, things will turn ugly. Factions will be built, borders drawn. For example, Steve the socializing Achiever will want to make Maria stay because he likes her, but Killer Achiever Bob thinks she is the weak link and has to go.
-The leader is also human and will want the best for his guys, but he has difficult desicions to make now:
Will he give up on his best player that stemmed the tide multiple timers because a large faction does not really like him because he is rude in TS?
Who has to go? Friendly Maria or effective Bob?

All of this endangers the tight group maddoctor has mentioned, so do we agree that these battle groups could also impode because they are finally defeated by success? Of course this also applies to fractal groups, dungeons ansd stuff, but all of this stuff is pugable if the need arises, and raids obviously not. It takes time to jump into an organized raid group that lost a member I guess, so I see the danger of:
a) People becoming outcasts because they are deemed the weak link and the other raiders prefer the money over the member.
b) A spiral of: we are done, where is the next raid?
I am not even talking about elitism here, just about simple math. You have 10, and 1 needs to go if you want to make the money.

The major raid rewards are given on a per week basis. Sellers just have to do their weekly run once and then sell runs, charging enough to make it worth while for them to do without the major rewards. And we’re not likely to see selling until people have learned the mechanics well enough to do them short a player or two consistently.

But that does not cancel out the problem. It rather additionally fires it, or not? Lets say a raid group does it´s success on Monday. Tuesday, all 10 people are there and want a piece of the cake that is selling the last place. What to do?

Torolan.5816:

But that does not cancel out the problem. It rather additionally fires it, or not? Lets say a raid group does it´s success on Monday. Tuesday, all 10 people are there and want a piece of the cake that is selling the last place. What to do?

Sell multiple times and rotate out. This may not be a huge issue on who gets to sit out first or not as over the course of the week, different players will be available at different times or may not want to raid that particular night anyway.

Have two people leave at the end, but give them a cut of the profits after the gold from selling the run is collected.

Seera.5916:

Torolan.5816:

But that does not cancel out the problem. It rather additionally fires it, or not? Lets say a raid group does it´s success on Monday. Tuesday, all 10 people are there and want a piece of the cake that is selling the last place. What to do?

Sell multiple times and rotate out. This may not be a huge issue on who gets to sit out first or not as over the course of the week, different players will be available at different times or may not want to raid that particular night anyway.

Have two people leave at the end, but give them a cut of the profits after the gold from selling the run is collected.

But isn´t that not a lot of micro management that really requires a raid by plan in a logistic aspect too? I can´t see many people wanting to bind this stone around their neck, maybe to jump from the bridge or something like that.
“Let´s see, we did the raid on wednesday. Until next wednesday, we have 6 chances to make it again by selling it. Who is there? Ok, 17 people. Who wants in? 12. Hm.”
Opens excel.
“Ok, according to my plan, Steve had 12 raid money, Maria 16, Frank 21 and Bob 27. so Bob and Frank are out and Steve and Maria are in today.”
“Yes, I know Frank, you have only time today, so you´re in and Steve is out…sigh.”

Sounds complicated to me and requires a really dedicated gamer and planer. And you don´t have set a suitable price, thought over individual expenses and people who have to rush out for an emergency or because it took to long and they have an important date with substitue players waiting to be managed too. And you also have not even sold it already. Kudos to you if you manage all of this without getting whispered angrily or needing aspirin after a while.^^

Sykper.6583:

Astralporing.1957:

Sykper.6583:

No, the raid isn’t stopping you from getting it at all, it is content that gives a reward when you complete it. If you can’t complete the raid you don’t get the reward.

Well, if i can’t complete a raid, then it means the raid did stop me, did it not?

The raid didn’t kick you out, or take away your legendary armor physically did it?

Let me know when it does that.

That’s not what “stopping” means. If something prevents a player from reaching an objective (in any way, wherher it is requiring a higher difficulty, than the player is capable of, greater time investment, or has some other requirement that the player is incapable of fulfilling) then it is stopping that player from obtaining the rewards.
Basically, you have said that already: “If you can’t complete a raid, you don’t get the rewards”. Well, if you can’t, you can’t. The raid has stopped you from obtaining the rewards.

Sykper.6583:

Ohoni.6057:

You shouldn’t disrespect one customer to please another. If they want to add raids, that’s fine, but don’t lock exclusive rewards behind them.

Then you are disrespecting the players’ wishes which the content was created for.

The players’ stated (quite clearly) wishes, were “we want a challenging content in this game”. I don’t see Ohoni disrespecting that.
Now, of course, it seems some players wanted something different that they asked for but weren’t brave enough (or truthful enough) to admit it. Until they spell clearly their real wishes however, i don’t need to respect those seriously.

Huh? You say that even though their market cost is constantly rising, you have some vague belief that their actual value to people is going down, and you want me to prove that your wishy-washy vibe is wrong? Um, no.

The actual value is those items is going down. If you recall what happened when they made legendary weapons available on the TP. Their value going up can be a matter of inflation and even market manipulation. How much gold is required to buy an item isn’t making them have actual value.

No. Again, it’s entirely a subjective matter. If the 99% of items are ones that the player doesn’t much care about, but the 1% is, then you’ve limited 0% of their frustration.

Yes. That’s how it works. If 99% of items are easier to attain then the frustration is limited. It doesn’t matter what an individual player needs and desires, it’s a more global effect. If it’s less frustration for the whole then the game reward system is successful, individual player desires are irrelevant.

Oh, there are achievers, sure, killers too. I’m just saying that I think you would find them in statistically lower numbers in this game than in other games, and that of those who would consider themselves foremost A or K players, they would rate the other elements higher than serious A or K players of other games, like 40/25/20/15, rather than 70/15/10/5, and therefore care less about having their A/K potentials limited than equivalent players of other games.

Where is your proof for that? Got any numbers? Because I think the opposite is true.

And you need to understand that “separate but equal” is not a solution, not even a compromise, it’s just getting exactly what you want and nothing that the other side wants. If there’s a green shirt and a blue shirt, and only some people can have the green shirt but anyone can have the blue shirt, having the blue shirt means nothing to someone that wanted the green one.

It doesn’t matter. You are ignoring a large segment of the player base, you want to impose your ideal on others and you are being disrespectful and ignorant. You just want to shut any other opinion than yours yet you provide no arguments other than “I want I want I want” stop thinking about only yourself for once. You are just being selfish like a spoiled brat.

That’s what you say when you say “Well, they won’t let you earn the raid armor outside of raids, but maybe they could offer some other armor.” It’s perfectly possible that I’ll like the “alternate” armor better, although across three material types and six slots it’s likely I’ll prefer the raid version for at least some bits. And maybe some raiders will prefer the non-raid versions to the raid versions. I’d prefer that if they’re going to have two different armors, that they allow the players to decide which pieces they want to earn.

Your wants are irrelevant. You are just being selfish and have no respect for other opinions or what other player types feel. You have no desire to compromise because the compromise is clear, have rewards for all types, yet you fail to even see that just because you put your own selfish desires in front.

IF you continue to be disrespectful and ignorant of other opinions and can’t even understand a compromise there is no reason to respond back.

Astralporing.1957:

Sykper.6583:

Astralporing.1957:

Sykper.6583:

No, the raid isn’t stopping you from getting it at all, it is content that gives a reward when you complete it. If you can’t complete the raid you don’t get the reward.

Well, if i can’t complete a raid, then it means the raid did stop me, did it not?

The raid didn’t kick you out, or take away your legendary armor physically did it?

Let me know when it does that.

That’s not what “stopping” means. If something prevents a player from reaching an objective (in any way, wherher it is requiring a higher difficulty, than the player is capable of, greater time investment, or has some other requirement that the player is incapable of fulfilling) then it is stopping that player from obtaining the rewards.
Basically, you have said that already: “If you can’t complete a raid, you don’t get the rewards”. Well, if you can’t, you can’t. The raid has stopped you from obtaining the rewards.

Sykper.6583:

Ohoni.6057:

You shouldn’t disrespect one customer to please another. If they want to add raids, that’s fine, but don’t lock exclusive rewards behind them.

Then you are disrespecting the players’ wishes which the content was created for.

The players’ stated (quite clearly) wishes, were “we want a challenging content in this game”. I don’t see Ohoni disrespecting that.
Now, of course, it seems some players wanted something different that they asked for but weren’t brave enough (or truthful enough) to admit it. Until they spell clearly their real wishes however, i don’t need to respect those seriously.

you dont seem to understand that a reward is given in recognition of an achievement.

“something given or received in return or recompense for service, merit, hardship, etc. "

therefore raids cant be seen as an impediment to a reward. Without raids, they wouldnt be rewards, they would just be items.

you dont deserve rewards without doing something of merit.
Is winning a championship stopping you from getting an NBA ring?
Is writing great articles getting in the way of your pulitzer award?
Is beating the heavyweight champion getting in the way of obtaining this belt? https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2625/4153355324_914c1088ed.jpg
selling 500 thousand copies of your song getting in the way of your gold record?

point is its a reward, by the very definition of the word, you are expected to do something of merit/difficulty to obtain it. And many rewards are made special by being something you can only get by doing something specific, that way they have no price, and are a pure representation of that achievement.

would you complain if they made WvW champion gear with logos of your server and the season they won?
Why do you think everything in a virtual community world should be designed to obtained by you, in only the ways you want to obtain it? Its a game for many types of people, they all need/want different things. Why cant you let people who enjoy that type of play have a something that means something to them?

phys.7689:

point is its a reward, by the very definition of the word, you are expected to do something of merit/difficulty to obtain it. And many rewards are made special by being something you can only get by doing something specific, that way they have no price, and are a pure representation of that achievement.

It’s the “I want everything handed to me” usually that disagree with this, they just can’t understand that there are different kinds of players who value rewards in a different way. While there is an easy way to cater to both crowds they just choose to ignore it.

Astralporing.1957:

The players’ stated (quite clearly) wishes, were “we want a challenging content in this game”. I don’t see Ohoni disrespecting that.
Now, of course, it seems some players wanted something different that they asked for but weren’t brave enough (or truthful enough) to admit it. Until they spell clearly their real wishes however, i don’t need to respect those seriously.

Now, here is something to discuss, the reward issue aside, many people wanted challenging content, 10 man raids may not be what they were looking for. I am one of those people (of course i spelled that out back when they started CDIs on raids)
BUT then you go on to talk about it as if you can dismiss everyone because some people maybe werent clear.
thats illogical, an assumption made only so you can ignore peoples wishes by claiming they wanted something but didnt want to say it.

maddoctor.2738:

phys.7689:

point is its a reward, by the very definition of the word, you are expected to do something of merit/difficulty to obtain it. And many rewards are made special by being something you can only get by doing something specific, that way they have no price, and are a pure representation of that achievement.

It’s the “I want everything handed to me” usually that disagree with this, they just can’t understand that there are different kinds of players who value rewards in a different way. While there is an easy way to cater to both crowds they just choose to ignore it.

in their defense its not so much i want everything handed to me, its more of a I want to everything, but i refuse to do anything but whatever i like to achieve it.

problem is, there does not exist such a perfect means for exchange of value in the world, and certainly not this game.

Astralporing.1957:

The players’ stated (quite clearly) wishes, were “we want a challenging content in this game”.

Got a source?

The actual value is those items is going down. If you recall what happened when they made legendary weapons available on the TP. Their value going up can be a matter of inflation and even market manipulation. How much gold is required to buy an item isn’t making them have actual value.

None of this makes any sense, but since on the one hand we have people willing to pay actual huge amount of gold for the items, more gold than they used to be even while the cost of staple goods has remained rather stagnant, and on the other hand we have your firm insistence that not only have they not maintained their value, but have actually gone down over time, I’m sorry, you’re going to have to provide evidence if you want to back up that claim.

Yes. That’s how it works. If 99% of items are easier to attain then the frustration is limited.

No, again, the amount by which the frustration is limited is not proportional to the percentage of items impacted, it is only proportional to the amount of items impacted which the player actually cares about. If the items available are not the ones the player cares about, and the items unavailable are the items he does care about, then none of the items that actually matter have been made available, and the frustration involved is in no way limited. What are you having trouble with on this point?

Where is your proof for that? Got any numbers? Because I think the opposite is true.

You seem to have a funny way with numbers. Like a Bizarro way with numbers. No, I have no proof for this, as I clearly said, this is just what I think, and I base that on looking at the content that GW2 has, and how the players have, and have not reacted to it, what they appeared to enjoy, what they appeared to dislike, the ones that stayed and the ones that left, and I just think it is likely that this community is E/S heavy relative to most other MMOs. There’s no way to prove that short of a massive random polling, and you don’t have to accept that as your own belief, but until given reason to believe otherwise, it will remain my belief.

therefore raids cant be seen as an impediment to a reward. Without raids, they wouldnt be rewards, they would just be items.

No, that’s rather nonsense. Whether they are called “rewards” or “items,” they are just skins that exist in the game. There is a team at ANet that makes skins. They continue to make skins. There are other places that decide where to put skins, under what circumstance, or in many cases likely “commission” skins from the art team to suit a particular location. But the point is, the skins get made. Now the content team decided to put these skins in the raid, and so they are in the raid, as a “reward” for completing it (or whatever you have to do to earn them). But if they had NOT been placed in that location, they still would have ended up someplace, or other skins would have been made, the point is, the raid is not responsible for creating the skins, people are, and if the raid is presented as a barrier to acquiring those skins, skins which could have filtered into the game world via other methods, then it IS a barrier.

I don’t care whether the raid skins are called “rewards” or “items,” I care whether or not they are permanently locked behind the raid.

you dont deserve rewards without doing something of merit.
Is winning a championship stopping you from getting an NBA ring?
Is writing great articles getting in the way of your pulitzer award?
Is beating the heavyweight champion getting in the way of obtaining this belt? https://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2625/4153355324_914c1088ed.jpg
selling 500 thousand copies of your song getting in the way of your gold record?

No, no, no, and no. All of these things can be purchased, for the right price, visual replicas (skins) for significantly less. Vladamir Putin has a Superbowl ring, but I can’t recall what position he played.

point is its a reward, by the very definition of the word, you are expected to do something of merit/difficulty to obtain it. And many rewards are made special by being something you can only get by doing something specific, that way they have no price, and are a pure representation of that achievement.

Yes, and those rewards, things like trophies, titles, acheivements, etc., you’ll notice nobody is arguing against. But skins are not these things, skins DO have value regardless of the task involved in acquiring them, and as such, should not be viewed merely as “pure representation of that achievement.”

would you complain if they made WvW champion gear with logos of your server and the season they won?

Me personally? No, because I wouldn’t want to wear that anyways, but if someone else did want that and was upset about it, I would defend their right to feel that way.

Its a game for many types of people, they all need/want different things. Why cant you let people who enjoy that type of play have a something that means something to them?

They can, so long as it doesn’t get in the way of me enjoying my type of play and having something that means something to me. I have as much right to that as they have to their feeling on the matter, so as individual that cancels each other out, and for the game as a whole it comes down to how many people like me there are vs. how many people like them, and we seem to be in disagreement over those relative numbers, but ANet is in a position to find out.

It’s the “I want everything handed to me” usually that disagree with this, they just can’t understand that there are different kinds of players who value rewards in a different way. While there is an easy way to cater to both crowds they just choose to ignore it.

If there is an easy way, then why don’t you spell it out? Please don’t tell me it’s still “separate but equal.”

problem is, there does not exist such a perfect means for exchange of value in the world, and certainly not this game.

There may not be a perfect means of exchange, but there are plenty of means that are better than nothing. “No form of exchange” is the worst form of exchange there is, because with a flawed means of exchange, the worst that can happen is that it doesn’t balance out right, and certain methods are either too efficient or inefficient and people are able to get the things they want too easily, or alternate methods are not worth the effort and people tend to do the original method instead.

With a “too hard” alternative, they can always make it slightly easier over time, but even if they don’t, it’s still better than nothing. Maybe the alternative is not worth the effort, but it’s at least available if the core path is truly impossible to you. I would not want a “too hard” alternative, and would press for it to be balanced out, but it’s at least still available.

With a “too easy” alternative, yes, more people would do it than intended, people would be lured away from the core task to pursue this path, but knowing this I think they should always err on the side of “way too hard” at first, then ease into “too hard,” and “just right,” as they gauge how the players interact with it. So long as they keep a firm hand on the tiller, it shouldn’t be a long term problem.

With no form of alternative, there is no form of alternative, if the original method is not an option, then you have no options. There is no way in which that is in any way superior to either of the two possibilities above.

54861:Ohoni.6057:

You need to understand that not everyone is like you and the game CAN cater to all types of players, including those who value rewards in HOW you get them and not based on how pretty they are. And the simplest way is to have a limited amount of exclusive rewards for them, keeping everyone happy.

And you need to understand that “separate but equal” is not a solution, not even a compromise, it’s just getting exactly what you want and nothing that the other side wants. If there’s a green shirt and a blue shirt, and only some people can have the green shirt but anyone can have the blue shirt, having the blue shirt means nothing to someone that wanted the green one.

To use Legendary weapons, if they made Twilight harder to earn, and Sunrise much easier, then that would mean nothing good for a player who really wanted the starfield theme to complement their “nightscape” themed Reaper. to him, you JUST made his goal harder, and offered nothing to make his goal easier.

That’s what you say when you say “Well, they won’t let you earn the raid armor outside of raids, but maybe they could offer some other armor.” It’s perfectly possible that I’ll like the “alternate” armor better, although across three material types and six slots it’s likely I’ll prefer the raid version for at least some bits. And maybe some raiders will prefer the non-raid versions to the raid versions. I’d prefer that if they’re going to have two different armors, that they allow the players to decide which pieces they want to earn.

That’s the whole idea with a piece of content and it’s reward made for a determined player set. It means they are catered to them only. If Arenanet wants to cater that specific playerset, then they cover more playertypes.

You can bring forward many an ill word about that specific playerset all you want, but that is just your opinion and nothing else. This is an MMO with a wide variety of players. Each player is as good as the next and each player deserves some content designed for them. When you promote to exclude a part of it you’re promoting to discriminate against that playerset.

What Maddoctor is saying is that the game as a whole can still cater to all players by offering many pieces of content with their respective rewards that cover as many player types as possible. That means people always have something in the game that works for them and have some rewards that is in their desires, unless they feel entitled to have all the rewards and the content to that reward designed for them. And that is never going to happen in an MMO.

I’m sorry, you’re going to have to provide evidence if you want to back up that claim.

What evidence? There has been nothing new to buy for months, there has been inflation entering the market (with nothing to buy) that’s all the proof I need for the increase in the price of items. Their value doesn’t play as much of a role in it.

What are you having trouble with on this point?

If it’s limiting frustration for the playerbase as a whole then it’s good. It’s as simple as that. Why are you having trouble with this point?

No, I have no proof for this, as I clearly said

Then if you are clueless don’t make assumptions you can’t back.

No, that’s rather nonsense. Whether they are called “rewards” or “items,” they are just skins that exist in the game.

For YOU. For other player types “Rewards” and “items” are completely different things. Just because YOU think there are the same doesn’t make it nonsense.

I don’t care whether the raid skins are called “rewards” or “items,” I care whether or not they are permanently locked behind the raid.

And that’s your own problem and Anet has no obligation to “fix” it for you.

They can, so long as it doesn’t get in the way of me enjoying my type of play and having something that means something to me.

Then you are just being selfish.

If there is an easy way, then why don’t you spell it out? Please don’t tell me it’s still “separate but equal.”

That’s it. It’s very easy just make some rewards work in one way and others the other way. Simple solution.

Torolan.5816:

But isn´t that not a lot of micro management that really requires a raid by plan in a logistic aspect too? I can´t see many people wanting to bind this stone around their neck, maybe to jump from the bridge or something like that.
“Let´s see, we did the raid on wednesday. Until next wednesday, we have 6 chances to make it again by selling it. Who is there? Ok, 17 people. Who wants in? 12. Hm.”
Opens excel.
“Ok, according to my plan, Steve had 12 raid money, Maria 16, Frank 21 and Bob 27. so Bob and Frank are out and Steve and Maria are in today.”
“Yes, I know Frank, you have only time today, so you´re in and Steve is out…sigh.”

Sounds complicated to me and requires a really dedicated gamer and planer. And you don´t have set a suitable price, thought over individual expenses and people who have to rush out for an emergency or because it took to long and they have an important date with substitue players waiting to be managed too. And you also have not even sold it already. Kudos to you if you manage all of this without getting whispered angrily or needing aspirin after a while.^^

There’s a wonderful invention called a calendar, which allows all the members to mark down days they are free each week. While I hope raid selling isn’t possible/made banable, you are making it seem like more work than it is. use the calendar to avoid conflicts, any un-resolvables use a randomiser.
Logistics , micro-management and good planning are all aspects of a raid too, it gives it the feeling of a proper military operation as opposed to the haphazard play that the open world is most of the time. Like your guild is actually a guild of trained adventurers rather than mindless ability spammers.

Astralporing.1957:

Sykper.6583:

Astralporing.1957:

Sykper.6583:

No, the raid isn’t stopping you from getting it at all, it is content that gives a reward when you complete it. If you can’t complete the raid you don’t get the reward.

Well, if i can’t complete a raid, then it means the raid did stop me, did it not?

The raid didn’t kick you out, or take away your legendary armor physically did it?

Let me know when it does that.

That’s not what “stopping” means. If something prevents a player from reaching an objective (in any way, wherher it is requiring a higher difficulty, than the player is capable of, greater time investment, or has some other requirement that the player is incapable of fulfilling) then it is stopping that player from obtaining the rewards.
Basically, you have said that already: “If you can’t complete a raid, you don’t get the rewards”. Well, if you can’t, you can’t. The raid has stopped you from obtaining the rewards.

Someone is going to be prevented from getting the rewards anyway, by virtue of them being rare rewards. There’s no scenario where the game designers would allow everyone to get legendary Armor.

Astralporing.1957:

Sykper.6583:

Ohoni.6057:

You shouldn’t disrespect one customer to please another. If they want to add raids, that’s fine, but don’t lock exclusive rewards behind them.

Then you are disrespecting the players’ wishes which the content was created for.

The players’ stated (quite clearly) wishes, were “we want a challenging content in this game”. I don’t see Ohoni disrespecting that.
Now, of course, it seems some players wanted something different that they asked for but weren’t brave enough (or truthful enough) to admit it. Until they spell clearly their real wishes however, i don’t need to respect those seriously.

Ohoni several pages back literally threatened to completely wreck our game-play if we don’t acquiesce to his demands, and I quote:

I don’t need to complete the raids, so long as I have alternative methods for earning the rewards. If there are no alternative methods, then we’re coming after the gameplay next, and we’ll get those raids nerfed into oblivion. Pick your poison.

Also you keep taunting and hinting that secretly we don’t want challenging content and just the rewards. We want both, it was always a parcel deal and it was made very clear in the Raid CDI that exclusive rewards should be part of raids. So the players most certainly made their “real” wishes clear from the start so you can stop your winking and nudging like a schoolgirl with a secret.

It’s a game where everyone is effectively a mercenary, of course they all want the shiniest loot and largest quantity, it doesn’t invalidate their point and it also doesn’t mean they don’t want challenging content.

Chellenging Group Content? Ok. Hardcore content? Ok
But please, no more annoying reaction/reflexes based content. No more something like Lupi, Marlona or Archidiviner where you need good reflexes and nothing more. AOE oneshots what you can evade less than 0.5 seconds? No, thanks. This is a bad design. What was a little worry about Raids…

Conski Deshan.2057:

There’s a wonderful invention called a calendar, which allows all the members to mark down days they are free each week. While I hope raid selling isn’t possible/made banable, you are making it seem like more work than it is. use the calendar to avoid conflicts, any un-resolvables use a randomiser.
Logistics , micro-management and good planning are all aspects of a raid too, it gives it the feeling of a proper military operation as opposed to the haphazard play that the open world is most of the time. Like your guild is actually a guild of trained adventurers rather than mindless ability spammers.

Now you make me curious(not with the calendar of course^^).
Are raids now accessible to anyone that can follow commands or not? I don´t know if you have military experience, but according to the trained adventurers aka strike teams like GSG9, Navy Seals etc etc not everybody can join if he puts effort in it. I´ve seen people try to become (just) policemen or firefighers who were as fit and learned as possible for them, but had to give up after several attempts because they simply did not cut it in one or another way. I don´t know about your country, but we don´t simply stuff a stupid gorilla in a policeman uniform and send him on the streets, they have to pass a college entry level test just to join the police.
And speaking of the leader, and the leutnant he will probably need if he can´t make it for weeks, what does the rest of the team? Hope that the temporary leader somehow cuts it?

That’s the whole idea with a piece of content and it’s reward made for a determined player set. It means they are catered to them only. If Arenanet wants to cater that specific playerset, then they cover more playertypes.

No, it’s a shared space. You can’t take a set of content, like raids in this case, and say “everything that goes into this, we only think about raiders.” You also have to consider how those decisions impact players of other areas of the game, because the things that come out of raids will impact the rest of the game.

It’s like back at launch, they could do this with PvP. They could make different reward models in PvP, and not have to worry about any other mode, because the items earned in PvP would never leave PvP (or so they thought). But now items can leave PvP, so they have to consider whether the items earned in PvP are fair to everyone else, whether the methods are fair, etc. They have the same responsibility with raids, to not only keep raiders happy, but also to keep everyone else happy with the changes.

What evidence? There has been nothing new to buy for months, there has been inflation entering the market (with nothing to buy) that’s all the proof I need for the increase in the price of items. Their value doesn’t play as much of a role in it.

But there hasn’t seemed to be any real inflation. Ectos are within a reasonable margin of what they were last year, iron ore is roughly where it was. What staple goods are you using to decide that there’s been inflation?

If it’s limiting frustration for the playerbase as a whole then it’s good. It’s as simple as that. Why are you having trouble with this point?

But you have no basis for the claim that is is limiting anyone’s frustration.

Then if you are clueless don’t make assumptions you can’t back.

I explained my reasoning, and it’s at the very least less baseless than your own assertions. Again, you don’t have to agree, but it’s the belief I’m working with until I see evidence to the contrary.

Then you are just being selfish.

In a sense, but at the least less selfish than those that want to keep items away from other people. The man who wants food for himself to eat is selfish, the man who could offer food to others, but wants to hoard it for himself just so that he has more than others is a monster.

That’s it. It’s very easy just make some rewards work in one way and others the other way. Simple solution.

Which works fine up until someone wants one of the “other way” items, at which point it does not work at all. “Separate but equal” is not a solution, try another one.

Ohoni several pages back literally threatened to completely wreck our game-play if we don’t acquiesce to his demands, and I quote:

Yup, but I’ve also said numerous times that I have no problem with raids being as raid-tastic as you want, so long as I don’t have to participate in them. Live and let live, so long as that’s the case, none of my business. But as soon as I’m “encouraged” to participate in raids, by having them be the only access to various rewards I want, well then I have to play them, and then I’m as important to the discussion as any of you, and what I want to happen in raids is of equal importance to what you want.

Note, this is not a threat, I personally have very little power to actually effect any change directly. Rather, it’s a prophesy, that there are a bunch of players in the game like me, player who have no interest in raiding and will not be raising any comments about raids so long as we’re given no reason to engage with them, but if we’re herded into them, prepare for a stampede until they are to our liking.

If the average player is funneled into raids against their will, then the average player will become the lowest common denominator, and push the bar down to their level. If you truly value challenging content, I assure you, you want us to be as far away from it as possible.

But there hasn’t seemed to be any real inflation. Ectos are within a reasonable margin of what they were last year, iron ore is roughly where it was. What staple goods are you using to decide that there’s been inflation?

Eternity is one piece that has been hovering between 4k and 5k and then 4k again, rinse repeat.

If it’s limiting frustration for the playerbase as a whole then it’s good. It’s as simple as that. Why are you having trouble with this point?

But you have no basis for the claim that is is limiting anyone’s frustration.

It’s called logic or rather common sense. If you put a great deal of rewards obtainable through any content then you solve the problem. The rest of the rewards can be exclusive to appeal to both types of players.

Then you are just being selfish.

In a sense, but at the least less selfish than those that want to keep items away from other people. The man who wants food for himself to eat is selfish, the man who could offer food to others, but wants to hoard it for himself just so that he has more than others is a monster.

You (and your kind) are the only selfish person here. You still fail to aknowledge what “the other side” says and twist and spin with random irrelevant examples. Players who want rewards for HOW you obtain them are those who want the raid rewards exclusive. They aren’t selfish in that regard, that’s how they want rewards to be, you on the other hand are being completely selfish for imposing your own ideal on them. You are seeing all rewards “just as skins”, others do not view them like this. Is that so hard to understand?

Which works fine up until someone wants one of the “other way” items, at which point it does not work at all. “Separate but equal” is not a solution, try another one.

And “all available to anyone” isn’t a solution either, so pick another one and stop advocating it. At least “separate but equal” works in a great percentage of the players because it caters to both types of players, your solution excludes particular player types, therefore your solution is FAR worse.

Torolan.5816:

Conski Deshan.2057:

There’s a wonderful invention called a calendar, which allows all the members to mark down days they are free each week. While I hope raid selling isn’t possible/made banable, you are making it seem like more work than it is. use the calendar to avoid conflicts, any un-resolvables use a randomiser.
Logistics , micro-management and good planning are all aspects of a raid too, it gives it the feeling of a proper military operation as opposed to the haphazard play that the open world is most of the time. Like your guild is actually a guild of trained adventurers rather than mindless ability spammers.

Now you make me curious(not with the calendar of course^^).
Are raids now accessible to anyone that can follow commands or not? I don´t know if you have military experience, but according to the trained adventurers aka strike teams like GSG9, Navy Seals etc etc not everybody can join if he puts effort in it. I´ve seen people try to become (just) policemen or firefighers who were as fit and learned as possible for them, but had to give up after several attempts because they simply did not cut it in one or another way. I don´t know about your country, but we don´t simply stuff a stupid gorilla in a policeman uniform and send him on the streets, they have to pass a college entry level test just to join the police.
And speaking of the leader, and the leutnant he will probably need if he can´t make it for weeks, what does the rest of the team? Hope that the temporary leader somehow cuts it?

Base access to raids is available for anyone (like in your example anyone can take the college test to be a police man). Success in raids, is not, is this not what you’re arguing against us for? you’re aware that part of raids is that significant portion of the playerbase can’t successfully complete it and you feel thats a bad thing?

You may be confusing skill and effort, everyone puts effort in (This is why I always laugh when people say in relation to rare items “Oh they can be rare but if someone puts effort in they should be able to get it”, that’s not a rare item everyone who wants it gets it.). Effort just means you are trying , maybe even going all out. But effort alone does not make it, It’s entirely possible to try your best and fail.
Skill is how effective your efforts are, it’s a combination of natural talents,luck, training, knowledge etc. It’s the sum of factors that make your efforts count for more.

As to the leader thing, I can’t speak for other guild groups but in mine all our top tier players are or have been guild leaders in the past and we just swap roles when needed. So if I was say the raid leader and I couldn’t attend one of them would take over.

Astralporing.1957:

That’s not what “stopping” means. If something prevents a player from reaching an objective (in any way, wherher it is requiring a higher difficulty, than the player is capable of, greater time investment, or has some other requirement that the player is incapable of fulfilling) then it is stopping that player from obtaining the rewards.
Basically, you have said that already: “If you can’t complete a raid, you don’t get the rewards”. Well, if you can’t, you can’t. The raid has stopped you from obtaining the rewards.

A paper on game design and reward design has been presented on this thread, it’s a good read for everyone. Game design and in particular rewards for games are a science, there is tons to read about it and even schools that teach it. It’s not something people (developers) haven’t thought about, discussed and perfected.

Yet I asked earlier in the thread for an example of single RPG which “gives everything to everyone” and nobody responded. I would love to see (and play) this game that works like that and doesn’t have any rewards locked behind content.

Someone even mentioned Guild Wars 2 as an example but it fails because you can’t get “everything” by doing anything you want. Even in Guild Wars 2 there are many rewards locked behind content. In other games also, some of their rewards are bought with gold (available from a variety of activities) and other available through multiple different paths. But without fail, you will find an item that is locked behind specific content in almost every RPG out there, even if it’s just ONE rare item, the “everything for everyone” argument fails.

And this is my “compromise” solution too. A solution that gives everything to everyone isn’t a solution because it leans 100% to one side and 0% to the other. The compromise is to give value to both sides of the argument.

I want the name of a single RPG which doesn’t follow the “reward behind specific content” paradigm.

I think the underlying question at work is “can the particular type of reward that is armor skins please not be used for raids or not be exclusively accessible through raids?” Nothing any more elaborate than that. People who like to customize their appearance and/or collect skins do not closely correlate to the raiding outlook. There’s overlap, but they’re not at all the same.

Should raids have rewards? Yes, setting them up sucks and succeeding at them takes a specific skill set that likes to be recognized. They should have rewards. Possibly even unique rewards.

Does the reward have to be an armor skin to be desirable? No. Titles and Minis are also immediately visible in-game and verifiable ways of announcing “I’m an at least marginally competent raider.” Cosmetic items like infinite tonics of the raid’s boss or new pseudo-mounts like the riding broom could be used as flags for raid completion. There are things MUCH more visible than armor that could be used to proclaim your success.

If armors skins are amongst the raid rewards, do they have to be exclusive to raids? No. Like Dungeon skins, its not unreasonable to allow the other game modes a way to access armor and weapons skins while NOT giving an alternative route to related titles like “Dungeon Master”. If there are infinite raid boss tonics, they’d also be ONLY accessible through the raid. No one’s saying the Raiders shouldn’t have flags, only that armor skins are not something that needs to be restricted that way.

This isn’t an issue of skill requirement or reward vs. effort. The alternative methods of acquisition can be just as time consuming and just as demanding of skill as any raid — there’s no hand outs going on here. No “slippery slope of communism.” But if we are going to have rewards that signify ANY particular brand of excellence or persistence be it Raiding or 1,000 wins in Southsun Survival, do those reward have to be armor skins?

No. They really don’t.

Nike.2631:

I think the underlying question at work is “can the particular type of reward that is armor skins please not be used for raids or not be exclusively accessible through raids?” Nothing any more elaborate than that. People who like to customize their appearance and/or collect skins do not closely correlate to the raiding outlook. There’s overlap, but they’re not at all the same.

Should raids have rewards? Yes, setting them up sucks and succeeding at them takes a specific skill set that likes to be recognized. They should have rewards. Possibly even unique rewards.

Does the reward have to be an armor skin to be desirable? No. Titles and Minis are also immediately visible in-game and verifiable ways of announcing “I’m an at least marginally competent raider.” Cosmetic items like infinite tonics of the raid’s boss or new pseudo-mounts like the riding broom could be used as flags for raid completion. There are things MUCH more visible than armor that could be used to proclaim your success.

If armors skins are amongst the raid rewards, do they have to be exclusive to raids? No. Like Dungeon skins, its not unreasonable to allow the other game modes a way to access armor and weapons skins while NOT giving an alternative route to related titles like “Dungeon Master”. If there are infinite raid boss tonics, they’d also be ONLY accessible through the raid. No one’s saying the Raiders shouldn’t have flags, only that armor skins are not something that needs to be restricted that way.

This isn’t an issue of skill requirement or reward vs. effort. The alternative methods of acquisition can be just as time consuming and just as demanding of skill as any raid — there’s no hand outs going on here. No “slippery slope of communism.” But if we are going to have rewards that signify ANY particular brand of excellence or persistence be it Raiding or 1,000 wins in Southsun Survival, do those reward have to be armor skins?

No. They really don’t.

“People who like to customize their appearance and/or collect skins do not closely correlate to the raiding outlook.” As someone who likes to collect skins I would like to see it being locked behind content (like raids) as that gives more value to the skin and it makes the experience of collecting them fun.

In fact.. I say “as someone who likes to collect skins” but this is false in the context of GW2.. It’s what I usually like in MMO’s, but this grinding some currency to buy the skin (like how it works 90% in GW2) is not what I like.

So for people who like to collect skins but are not of the hardcore casual grinder types it would be preferable to have items behind specific content like raids.

Nike.2631:

Does the reward have to be an armor skin to be desirable? No. Titles and Minis are also immediately visible in-game and verifiable ways of announcing “I’m an at least marginally competent raider.” Cosmetic items like infinite tonics of the raid’s boss or new pseudo-mounts like the riding broom could be used as flags for raid completion. There are things MUCH more visible than armor that could be used to proclaim your success.

I don’t agree.

There are 6 armor pieces, and you will probably need each piece 3 times to get all 18 armors (3 weights). So there is the potential to succeed at running a raid AT LEAST (based on RNG) 6-18 times. Because there are so many potential rewards, their RNG can be lessened. Also, even after you get your 18th armor there is still reason to continue running the raid for your other characters. This means that legendary armor has the potential to keep players occupied for a very long time.

On the other hand, Titles and Minis are both horrible ideas as (the only) raid rewards. Titles can only be acquired once, no need to re-run the raid once you get it. And as for minis… how many will there be? Too few and it will be just a grind, too many and it will be a mess. And even so, you might not like some of the minis, once you get those you like it’s over.

Titles and minis can keep you interested for some little time. Armor can keep you interested for a very long time.

Conski Deshan.2057:

Base access to raids is available for anyone (like in your example anyone can take the college test to be a police man). Success in raids, is not, is this not what you’re arguing against us for? you’re aware that part of raids is that significant portion of the playerbase can’t successfully complete it and you feel thats a bad thing?

You may be confusing skill and effort, everyone puts effort in (This is why I always laugh when people say in relation to rare items “Oh they can be rare but if someone puts effort in they should be able to get it”, that’s not a rare item everyone who wants it gets it.). Effort just means you are trying , maybe even going all out. But effort alone does not make it, It’s entirely possible to try your best and fail.
Skill is how effective your efforts are, it’s a combination of natural talents,luck, training, knowledge etc. It’s the sum of factors that make your efforts count for more.

As to the leader thing, I can’t speak for other guild groups but in mine all our top tier players are or have been guild leaders in the past and we just swap roles when needed. So if I was say the raid leader and I couldn’t attend one of them would take over.

Hm, this clears up pretty much for me i I get you right. So I can become a firefighter(raider) if I:
a) pass the college level test to show my mental progress
b) pass the physical fitness test to show my bodily abilities
c) need to have luck

So everyone can enter the police station and say:
“Well, I can come through your door, but I can´t be a policeman because how hard I try is irrelevant.”
So yes, I object to the idea that a significant portion of the playerbase can´t make it whatever they do, how often they try and should not even make it. I have no concrete numbers, but I am pretty sure that there are not many men and women who are firefighters compared to the general population who are not. Does indeed not sound like a very promising and sustainable playerbase for me.

Torolan.5816:

So yes, I object to the idea that a significant portion of the playerbase can´t make it whatever they do, how often they try and should not even make it.

Setting aside the weird examples everyone gives, that’s how video game rewards work.

Ohoni.6057:

That’s the whole idea with a piece of content and it’s reward made for a determined player set. It means they are catered to them only. If Arenanet wants to cater that specific playerset, then they cover more playertypes.

No, it’s a shared space. You can’t take a set of content, like raids in this case, and say “everything that goes into this, we only think about raiders.” You also have to consider how those decisions impact players of other areas of the game, because the things that come out of raids will impact the rest of the game.

You shouldn’t use quotationmarks for something no one ever said. I merely said that with each piece of content you design it with a specific type of player in mind. Raiders expect some level of exclusive rewards. That obviously doesn’t mean these extreme statements you’re making up. But that does mean that some amount of exclusive rewards should be obtained in raids. But not so much that every non-raider is left out of fancy rewards. There’s a balance. Everything non-exclusive is not balance.

You guys still arguing with Ohoni? What’s the point? It’s just the same arguments back and forth.

At least the thread moved on from the comparisons with movies, books and golf. I’m surprised this thread hasn’t gotten locked like all the others.

maddoctor.2738:

Torolan.5816:

So yes, I object to the idea that a significant portion of the playerbase can´t make it whatever they do, how often they try and should not even make it.

Setting aside the weird examples everyone gives, that’s how video game rewards work.

So how do you expect to have a significant player base for raids if you rule out significant portions of the players by lack of skill already? And why did you argue with me earlier in this thread with you stating that anybody can do it if he really tries and puts effort and training into it?

Call me old fashioned if you want, but this reeks indeed very much of elitism for me. Not unfounded elitism probably, but with an attitude I don´t want to be a part of.

Torolan.5816:

Skill is how effective your efforts are, it’s a combination of natural talents,luck, training, knowledge etc. It’s the sum of factors that make your efforts count for more.

Hm, this clears up pretty much for me i I get you right. So I can become a firefighter(raider) if I:
a) pass the college level test to show my mental progress
b) pass the physical fitness test to show my bodily abilities
c) need to have luck

I said combination, you require at least A and B to progress and having C doesen’t hurt either.

Torolan.5816:

So everyone can enter the police station and say:
“Well, I can come through your door, but I can´t be a policeman because how hard I try is irrelevant.”
So yes, I object to the idea that a significant portion of the playerbase can´t make it whatever they do, how often they try and should not even make it. I have no concrete numbers, but I am pretty sure that there are not many men and women who are firefighters compared to the general population who are not. Does indeed not sound like a very promising and sustainable playerbase for me.

I’m not sure how it operates in your country but in mine it’s a points system to get access to courses (following on from your police man example). If there are 20 places for the course and you tried your hardest got 400 points, but your course had a cut off of 405 points you don’t get it. Because while you tried your best, 20 other peoples best (heck maybe not even their best, their skill level can just be so much higher I’ve seen it happen) was better than yours.
That is what I’m trying to convey, Yes you can try your hardest and it increases the likelihood of you succeeding, but the possibility of failure is there. If in the big picture you were in theory in the bottom 10% of players then obviously the raid is designed so that you fail. That’s game theory using global difficulty. Someone has to be failing it, otherwise there’s no risk, if there’s no risk then it’s not a game because success is guaranteed.

Torolan.5816:

So how do you expect to have a significant player base for raids if you rule out significant portions of the players by lack of skill already? And why did you argue with me earlier in this thread with you stating that anybody can do it if he really tries and puts effort and training into it?

Call me old fashioned if you want, but this reeks indeed very much of elitism for me. Not unfounded elitism probably, but with an attitude I don´t want to be a part of.

I believe a significant portion of the population will interact with raids, that’s all they have to do. The content is measured by people playing it not succeeding it.
Take the mad kings clock-tower, I have not succeeded that jumping puzzle (only one I haven’t), I have still gotten game-play out of it and interacted with it. A dev when they first released it said they expected only 10% of the player-base to be able to complete it, I was not in that 10% when it was released and that is ok. I may improve and then be able to do it. I may not and never be able to do it, and that’s equally ok.

On the elitism front, I dislike the term but I can see why people use it. How would you separate out the desire for recognition/showing off skills and reward it to that class of players satisfaction?
I like to think that I’ve helped a lot more people than I’ve hindered in this game, I always answer questions from new players , help them out occasionally and don’t kick in dungeons (the stereotypes the elitist title promotes) at the same time I do have the strong desire to be unique^ and or gain passive recognition^^.
To me MMO’s have always catered to and promoted the ability to do so, some of my characters in other MMO’s , have massive amounts of things that move me towards that goal.

^ By unique the goal is to have less and less players capable of getting every item you have, ideally reducing that number to 0, this is actually the same definition I use for progression, you progress if less people are on the same level as you, which extends that my definition of cosmetic progression is that less people have the ability to wear the same skins as you at each step. (This is the factor that causes my support of limited time items, and rare items)

^^ Recognition is for skill based items, I would like to improve my abilities and move up in the world, getting better at the game in all aspects and be recognized for that achievement. (This is the factor that causes my support of achievement based items, untradeable specific drops, and raids unique items).

Torolan.5816:

maddoctor.2738:

Torolan.5816:

So yes, I object to the idea that a significant portion of the playerbase can´t make it whatever they do, how often they try and should not even make it.

Setting aside the weird examples everyone gives, that’s how video game rewards work.

So how do you expect to have a significant player base for raids if you rule out significant portions of the players by lack of skill already? And why did you argue with me earlier in this thread with you stating that anybody can do it if he really tries and puts effort and training into it?

Call me old fashioned if you want, but this reeks indeed very much of elitism for me. Not unfounded elitism probably, but with an attitude I don´t want to be a part of.

I’m still waiting for that game that gives all the rewards to everyone.

How much is significant for you? 10%? 50%?

I don´t think that Elitists are unfriendly persons in general. A well meaning elite can be good for everyone else too if they share a little bit of their success(Sharing is not showing off, mind you) or at least don´t mind if their exclusive content gets devalued in time and they can aim for the next gem instead after a while.

This interaction theory is probably pretty neat, but how does ist pay bills for Anet if interaction already counts as success? If a would be raider group tries a few times, failes and give up, how can this be good for the long term health? If a significant number of these people leave for being forcefully put in the backseat regarding, lets say, legendary armor, things are not looking good. However, I agree with it being a good band aid for angry shareholders until Anet has to close shop because the foundation has become too small.

I am also pretty sure that the police gets reprimanded, at least here, if they have to few recruits from the start and rattle the cage so hard that they only have a selected few left. Politicians start to scream and shout, scared citizens complain, and the police tries to wiggle out of it by saying that people just did not cut it or did not put in much effort. So you would be the police commisioner trying to wiggle out from under my protest as a citizen right now, or not? Who is in the right? The elitist police force that is not satisfied with a sporty guy and a brain that closely did not make it, or the citizens who just want a guy in a police uniform that can fluently speak and run quickly compared to them? And even then, 20 years later, the police car yawns if Officer Once Fit heaves himself in the police car somehow and can´t be fired because he is working for life for the state? I honestly don´t know.

My solution would be a medal system. Someone who receives the medal of honor can have served in the same war as the guy that has served there and only received a medal of good conduct. If the later one has for example given covering fire for the guy that received the medal of honor, was he less valuable then? The hero still gets the glory in that system, but the other bguy goes home with a pension too.

maddoctor.2738:

Torolan.5816:

maddoctor.2738:

Torolan.5816:

So yes, I object to the idea that a significant portion of the playerbase can´t make it whatever they do, how often they try and should not even make it.

Setting aside the weird examples everyone gives, that’s how video game rewards work.

So how do you expect to have a significant player base for raids if you rule out significant portions of the players by lack of skill already? And why did you argue with me earlier in this thread with you stating that anybody can do it if he really tries and puts effort and training into it?

Call me old fashioned if you want, but this reeks indeed very much of elitism for me. Not unfounded elitism probably, but with an attitude I don´t want to be a part of.

I’m still waiting for that game that gives all the rewards to everyone.

And I am still waiting for the explanation of why we argued then, so I guess we will both go home without an answer.

xarallei.4279:

You guys still arguing with Ohoni? What’s the point? It’s just the same arguments back and forth.

At least the thread moved on from the comparisons with movies, books and golf. I’m surprised this thread hasn’t gotten locked like all the others.

Some subjects gets locked very fast without good reasons (like cash-shop threads). Not so sure why that one got locked as it was a oke thread, yes it when into circles but every circle something was added.

I guess it shows, locking thread with no good reason is useless as a new thread will pop up sooner or later.

The discussion with Ohoni itself does become a little useless as he simply wants a currency grind, basically the same way as GW2 had it. He then points to many people liking it. The problem however is, that it’s the biggest negative about GW2 and the fact that many of the current players like it, simply is because those ho did not left. With HoT GW2 wants to not lose those players (who will likely come back for HoT) as they will not come back for a second expansion if they get bored again. So the game has to come up with a better reward system. It is as simple as that.

Torolan.5816:

And I am still waiting for the explanation of why we argued then, so I guess we will both go home without an answer.

I admit I missed the “can´t make it whatever they do” part, that’s dumb. Sorry

Dear Anet Developers and Players!

The problem:
I spent 8 years in WOW raiding, I understood one big disadvantage of their system.
The Story can not explain the multiple killing of the same boss again and again. Also here is no immersion in such actions. Also people feel disconnected each other in different raids, but they do the same job from the story point of view. After the 1st kills (if we exclude the loot topic) the motivation to go in to the raid again is close to 0. Why to defeat the boss again if this boss was already defeated?

KIlling the same boss several times from logical side looks stupid, you kill this boss and your friend kill same boss at same time, then later you need to kill this boss again, and again. How even you can kill the boss more than one time? What is the purpose of this epic battle and this achievment if you will need to kill him again soon? Just loot? But what about the story, will the story tell us that this boos will be ressurected just because hero-player need some more loot? Is it enough for immersion? Sounds very strange

I propose the simple solution which can create the purpose of mutiple defeating of the boss and even in simultaneous raids.

Solution – idea:
From the story point of view we can somehow explain that multiple victories against the enemy is requred, but then need to show this progress to players.
Also need to join the progress of each guild and each single victory in to the one clear picture and show it to players. Players must see their progress on this picture. Players must see progress of another raids on same picture. Players must have way to easily compare and understand who did better job. It will motivate players.

Implementation
It can be in-game diagram with black area in the beginning, where each defeat of the boss will fill 1 red-pixel, and win against stronger boss will fill several red-pixels, etc
Filling can follow from left to right or by another system (filling of the map-areas for example)
Different guilds can have little be different colors, then will be easy to see which guild made more victories and have bigger influence in to the big picture.
By mouse over will be possible to see immediately which guild achieved each specific victory and when.
I suggest to play around this idea:
- When picture will be fully filled we will achieve GREAT VICTORY and can OPEN another RAID-Tier.
- If we play bad, for example sigle boss was killed not often enough, or not killed at all, then he can influence to the BIG picture and can refill it slowly by black color back
- etc.

to moderator: the topic can be join to another thread “raids” if you like, I just want to be sure that developers will see it at lease once, and this idea is not about raids in the begin of HoT, it’s more about future raids system

I’ve always assumed that we only kill the boss once. Subsequent fights are deja vu all over again — the boss isn’t actually respawning, we just perceive it as a second fight. (For gaming purposes, we get to keep the loot.)

Anet should have set the bar for legendaries very high at the start and they should never have been BoE. Because the first set of legendaries were so easy (if grindy) to get everyone now feels they are entitled to getting the new legendaries. Legendaries are meant to be a prestige item and should be difficult to get. You should have to master all the game modes to get them imho. They are supposed to have meaning. They are LEGENDARIES for a reason. It seems like Anet is trying to correct their mistake this time around at least…

Illconceived Was Na.9781:

I’ve always assumed that we only kill the boss once. Subsequent fights are deja vu all over again — the boss isn’t actually respawning, we just perceive it as a second fight. (For gaming purposes, we get to keep the loot.)

In short: the idea is to utilize the fact that every boss will be kiled mutiple times by creating the visible progress of these facts, and by creating the BIG target (open new raid-wing for example). As a bonus: this system will create the competition between guilds that will improve the motivation as well.

xarallei.4279:

Anet should have set the bar for legendaries very high at the start and they should never have been BoE. Because the first set of legendaries were so easy (if grindy) to get everyone now feels they are entitled to getting the new legendaries. Legendaries are meant to be a prestige item and should be difficult to get. You should have to master all the game modes to get them imho. They are supposed to have meaning. They are LEGENDARIES for a reason. It seems like Anet is trying to correct their mistake this time around at least…

This is what they were supposed to be:
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/my-legend-grows-forging-your-first-legendary-weapon/

Legendary Weapons are an impressive meld of art and effects. They show off your accomplishments and allow you to change your character’s footprints, projectiles, and much more. They’re designed to stand out and show everyone that you are a true master of Guild Wars 2.

More like a True master of grinding in Guild Wars 2

And also:

You’ll complete dungeons, battle in World vs. World, collect karma, and visit the Temple of Balthazar.

Funny how other than collecting karma you don’t have to do any of those anymore :X

Otherwise, you design unkillable boss and the purpose of the player is to drive him away to claim an area. Since in the end you leave the instanced raid, it’s only logical that the Boss come again while you’re not here to claim the area.

That’s basically what is done with tequatl, jormag’s claw and the shatterer.

Nike.2631:

I think the underlying question at work is “can the particular type of reward that is armor skins please not be used for raids or not be exclusively accessible through raids?” Nothing any more elaborate than that. People who like to customize their appearance and/or collect skins do not closely correlate to the raiding outlook. There’s overlap, but they’re not at all the same.

Should raids have rewards? Yes, setting them up sucks and succeeding at them takes a specific skill set that likes to be recognized. They should have rewards. Possibly even unique rewards.

Does the reward have to be an armor skin to be desirable? No. Titles and Minis are also immediately visible in-game and verifiable ways of announcing “I’m an at least marginally competent raider.” Cosmetic items like infinite tonics of the raid’s boss or new pseudo-mounts like the riding broom could be used as flags for raid completion. There are things MUCH more visible than armor that could be used to proclaim your success.

If armors skins are amongst the raid rewards, do they have to be exclusive to raids? No. Like Dungeon skins, its not unreasonable to allow the other game modes a way to access armor and weapons skins while NOT giving an alternative route to related titles like “Dungeon Master”. If there are infinite raid boss tonics, they’d also be ONLY accessible through the raid. No one’s saying the Raiders shouldn’t have flags, only that armor skins are not something that needs to be restricted that way.

This isn’t an issue of skill requirement or reward vs. effort. The alternative methods of acquisition can be just as time consuming and just as demanding of skill as any raid — there’s no hand outs going on here. No “slippery slope of communism.” But if we are going to have rewards that signify ANY particular brand of excellence or persistence be it Raiding or 1,000 wins in Southsun Survival, do those reward have to be armor skins?

No. They really don’t.

your whole idea is wrong because your premise is that armor skins is somehow mechanically different from tonics, trophies, mounts and minis, in terms of people’s desire for them. Its not, they are all cosmetics and there are always people who want to get them. The fact that people want them is what make them appropriate rewards.

All you are really doing is saying these group of cosmetic people dont matter, because i personally think the only cosmetics that matter are armor skins. The question really is, is it ok to have cosmetic unique rewards for different types of gameplay. Thats the first question.
Ohoni is not comfortable with anything visual being specific. I brought up auras, color differences, even a small arbitray difference such as a star or number one, or different palette choice. Nothing is acceptable because he might want that one.

truth is it really boils down to wanting everything on ones own terms.