Guild Wars 2

Obtena.7952:

Oh I don’t disagree with that … Anet do want people to experience Raiding; in fact I think it’s key to future endgame content strategy. Expansions and LS are too ‘spiky’ to keep people ingame with the frequency they need to have constant revenues. If they attach rewards to raids that aren’t limited in usefulness to just raids, more people will try them out. They might not stick to it, but I bet some will like them and do it. That’s a smart move IMO.

If that happens to be true, I would have to give up on GW2 rather sooner than later. I don´t want to be pressed into making content, especially not raids. I think we both know after the last year that Anet can only make one thing at a time, and if the chosen endgame of GW2 will be raids, I am out.

Five pages, and not one Dev response. This speaks volumes, no?

For me, might Raid if given a group that isn’t so elitist and stuck up. Maybe my guild will set aside a day to Raid. Other than that, nope.

However, I could not care less than I do with regards to Spirit Shards.

Obtena.7952:

Tyger.1637:

Obtena.7952:

why should there be a reward for people with XP who haven’t completed their masteries?

Because it slowly unravels the tapestry they’re trying to create.

I’m going to challenge that; so IIRC, you saying that if you don’t get something for your XP once you ‘top level’, the game offers nothing to you that makes it interesting enough to play at level 80 to unravel its tapestry? Well, I can only think that’s a very exceptional player that views XP in this manner; there are ALL kinds of reasons to continuing unraveling that tapestry at level 80, other than gaining XP. In fact, I think gaining XP is such an inconsequential reward in this game, it hardly goes noticed when you get it, even while leveling. It’s basically thrown at you. I click a bloodstone stalagtite and get some 5 figures XP gain or something ridiculous like that … it’s participation rewards … it seems silly to insist we get some tangible reward for the continuous flood of XP obtained from doing anything in this game.

MAYBE if XP was not so freely given away, there would be a sensible reward item to attach to it.

Well done for clipping everything after my quote, strawmanning and making exactly the point I was making. I said I played my 80s less in Tyria, not stopped altogether:

Now I used to be a City player so I’m used to finding value elsewhere; I was a shameless AE powerleveller that could generate tickets at full bore every run-through when my maxed character who wouldn’t earn xp took equals and sidekicks in with them. But my farmer could still earn influence and prestige even if they didn’t earn XP.

So no, I do find other value.

The point is that it’s one less thing we get and makes several other connected things redundant; less reason to make or use food (sorry, chefs), XP scrolls have almost no draw (but at least we can turn them into Tomes and use to get Spirit Shards), auto-consume scrolls ‘go to waste’ and all these XP boosters are useless to our 80s. At the extreme example of players who have 80s, no more slots and no interest in doing 1-80 again that’s pulling at a thread that you really don’t want to pull at.

And if raiding is an optional exercise then either that raid masteries should be open should I decide later to do them or they should not be included as part of the region masteries because right now; I’m forced to do that, forced to do adventures, forced to go where I might not want to be and that is the exact opposite of ‘play how you want’.

misterman.1530:

Five pages, and not one Dev response. This speaks volumes, no?

For me, might Raid if given a group that isn’t so elitist and stuck up. Maybe my guild will set aside a day to Raid. Other than that, nope.

However, I could not care less than I do with regards to Spirit Shards.

Not really. They don’t respond to everything.

TBH, when it comes to raids, I see more vitriol coming from those that don’t raid regularly.

misterman.1530:

Five pages, and not one Dev response. This speaks volumes, no?

Not really. A lot of this thread is contributors going back and forth with each other. At this point most if not all angles have been stated in one form or another, but while we as contributors tend to take ideas to the first step, Anet has to delve far deeper – and thus take longer – before being able to say anything. Speaking before they have a solid plan isn’t their style.

We don’t know if this change was the only step they intended, or if they have future plans. We don’t know if our suggestions are easy to code for or not. We don’t know how the UI can be conveniently adjusted to accommodate the player with future changes (I still struggle with the Hero Panel ). We don’t know the potential economic impacts, etc. etc. But since we lack the details to make those assessments, our words naturally come out sooner than Anet’s.

Tyger.1637:

Obtena.7952:

Tyger.1637:

Obtena.7952:

why should there be a reward for people with XP who haven’t completed their masteries?

Because it slowly unravels the tapestry they’re trying to create.

I’m going to challenge that; so IIRC, you saying that if you don’t get something for your XP once you ‘top level’, the game offers nothing to you that makes it interesting enough to play at level 80 to unravel its tapestry? Well, I can only think that’s a very exceptional player that views XP in this manner; there are ALL kinds of reasons to continuing unraveling that tapestry at level 80, other than gaining XP. In fact, I think gaining XP is such an inconsequential reward in this game, it hardly goes noticed when you get it, even while leveling. It’s basically thrown at you. I click a bloodstone stalagtite and get some 5 figures XP gain or something ridiculous like that … it’s participation rewards … it seems silly to insist we get some tangible reward for the continuous flood of XP obtained from doing anything in this game.

MAYBE if XP was not so freely given away, there would be a sensible reward item to attach to it.

Well done for clipping everything after my quote, strawmanning and making exactly the point I was making. I said I played my 80s less in Tyria, not stopped altogether:

I read what you posted. Just because you were clipped doesn’t mean I didn’t consider it. If we agree, it didn’t seem like it to me. XP at this point in the game is simply a way to throttle leveling. It’s nothing more than a participation reward and I don’t feel it would be reasonable to attach material rewards to it.

misterman.1530:

Five pages, and not one Dev response. This speaks volumes, no?

For me, might Raid if given a group that isn’t so elitist and stuck up. Maybe my guild will set aside a day to Raid. Other than that, nope.

However, I could not care less than I do with regards to Spirit Shards.

This speaks volumes about what? The fact that devs aren’t paid to surf the forums and respond to every single question posed to them about the smallest issues?

Obtena.7952:

Oh I don’t disagree with that … Anet do want people to experience Raiding; in fact I think it’s key to future endgame content strategy. Expansions and LS are too ‘spiky’ to keep people ingame with the frequency they need to have constant revenues. If they attach rewards to raids that aren’t limited in usefulness to just raids, more people will try them out. They might not stick to it, but I bet some will like them and do it. That’s a smart move IMO.

If you want a traditional “raid or get lost” MMO, go play one. This game was supposed to be the exact opposite of that.

Obtena.7952:

if someone is going to suggest something need to change , it better be a really good reason to do so. Reasons like “I want it, but can’t be bothered to do what’s necessary” don’t cut it here.

Why do you keep touting this straw man?

I’ve completed the central masteries.. that seems to be “what’s neccessary” to earn rewards in central.
I’ve completed the HoT masteries which, based on the above logic, would seem to be “what’s neccessary” to earn rewards in the HoT maps.
Except it isn’t… because it also requires completing a separate game mode.

As I said in my post, I’m going to complete the raid masteries. I’m willing to do what’s required, even though I don’t agree with the requirements – for the reasons I outlined in my post. Whether those are “really good reasons” for suggesting the change is arguable, but you’ll notice those reasons don’t include the laziness you’re implying and it’s disingenuous (a word you seem to like using) of you to keep straw manning that laziness is the reason behind this issue.

Hyper Cutter.9376:

If you want a traditional “raid or get lost” MMO, go play one. This game was supposed to be the exact opposite of that.

It still is … there is nothing that requires you to raid … not even spirit shards.

Zoltar MacRoth.7146:

Obtena.7952:

if someone is going to suggest something need to change , it better be a really good reason to do so. Reasons like “I want it, but can’t be bothered to do what’s necessary” don’t cut it here.

Why do you keep touting this straw man?

Because it’s not … it’s in fact a VERY real factor when you have finite resources to do things with. It’s the same reason I believe they dropped developing more Legendary weapons … it’s not worth the return on the investment to do so when those resources can be put to better use to bring content to more people. This isn’t any different. If people want spirit shards from XP and NOT having to do raids, this would require Anet to actually undo something that they decided was a better approach than the old way in the first place. Seems rather stupid to make such a suggestion to me.

Obtena.7952:

Zoltar MacRoth.7146:

Obtena.7952:

if someone is going to suggest something need to change , it better be a really good reason to do so. Reasons like “I want it, but can’t be bothered to do what’s necessary” don’t cut it here.

Why do you keep touting this straw man?

Because it’s not … it’s in fact a VERY real factor when you have finite resources to do things with. It’s the same reason I believe they dropped developing more Legendary weapons … it’s not worth the return on the investment to do so when those resources can be put to better use to bring content to more people. This isn’t any different. If people want spirit shards from XP and NOT having to do raids, this would require Anet to actually undo something that they decided was a better approach than the old way in the first place. Seems rather stupid to make such a suggestion to me.

I’m sure you can see the irony in the bolded sentence.

Not really, but if you want to spell it out, go ahead. It’s generally bad practice to reverse your developments, especially if their isn’t anything wrong with their implementation.

Obtena.7952:

Zoltar MacRoth.7146:

Obtena.7952:

this would require Anet to actually undo something that they decided was a better approach than the old way in the first place.* Seems rather stupid to make such a suggestion to me.

I’m sure you can see the irony in the bolded sentence.

Not really, but if you want to spell it out, go ahead. It’s generally bad practice to reverse your developments, especially if their isn’t anything wrong with their implementation.

Before the current wheel-style skill unlock system in our Hero panel, there was a skill tree system. Anet must have decided that was a good approach at the time since they implemented it yet they later decided to change it for something they consider an even better approach. You might say they reversed their development. Or you could say they adapted the game to changing circumstances, as they do constantly, and rightly so. Ideas change and develop. What seemed like a good approach at one time may not seem so at another. Anet can, and have, undone something they originally did if it makes sense to them to do so. Nerf this. Buff that. It’s an evolving game.

“there isn’t anything wrong with their implementation” is clearly subjective. You don’t agree with this and that’s okay. That doesn’t make changing this wrong or impossible. Requiring only the completion of HoT masteries to earn rewards in HoT zones would make some players very happy and wouldn’t hurt you in the slightest.

Obtena.7952:

Not really, but if you want to spell it out, go ahead. It’s generally bad practice to reverse your developments, especially if their isn’t anything wrong with their implementation.

That’s not true. WoW does it. GW2 does it. It’s not even uncommon.

Blaeys.3102:

The obvious solution – and a way to future proof against this issue with the next raid – is to expand the raid experience to offer lower tiers of difficulty, making them more accessible and open to the entire playerbase.

Yeah cause ya know escort isn’t easy ? I would argue escort is more easy than any fractal. Yet all these posters don’t wanna do escort. Another example why easy mode raids would not work.

The problem is some people are spoiled and justitie wanna whine about anything raid related.

Zoltar MacRoth.7146:

Before the current wheel-style skill unlock system in our Hero panel, there was a skill tree system .

I’m not disagreeing with you that the old system was changed for a new one but in terms of apples and oranges we’re comparing a massively different skill system and one level of masteries.

I personally don’t care whether they do anything to allow people to get shards without doing raids and you’ve already said you’ll probably just go and do part of a raid to unlock masteries which, pragmatically, is the approach I’d take. But if we look at the new skill system being better than the old one and raids making for a better GW2 experience.. then this isn’t reverting a development, it’s improving it.

General Health.9678:

Zoltar MacRoth.7146:

Before the current wheel-style skill unlock system in our Hero panel, there was a skill tree system .

I’m not disagreeing with you that the old system was changed for a new one but in terms of apples and oranges we’re comparing a massively different skill system and one level of masteries.

I personally don’t care whether they do anything to allow people to get shards without doing raids and you’ve already said you’ll probably just go and do part of a raid to unlock masteries which, pragmatically, is the approach I’d take. But if we look at the new skill system being better than the old one and raids making for a better GW2 experience.. then this isn’t reverting a development, it’s improving it.

Adding rewards to post-80 experience gain independent of the mastery system is arguably an improvement as well.

AliamRationem.5172:

General Health.9678:

Zoltar MacRoth.7146:

Before the current wheel-style skill unlock system in our Hero panel, there was a skill tree system .

I’m not disagreeing with you that the old system was changed for a new one but in terms of apples and oranges we’re comparing a massively different skill system and one level of masteries.

I personally don’t care whether they do anything to allow people to get shards without doing raids and you’ve already said you’ll probably just go and do part of a raid to unlock masteries which, pragmatically, is the approach I’d take. But if we look at the new skill system being better than the old one and raids making for a better GW2 experience.. then this isn’t reverting a development, it’s improving it.

Adding rewards to post-80 experience gain independent of the mastery system is arguably an improvement as well.

This. The game throws experience at you post-80 regardless of whether there’s any benefit to be gained from it or not. Post-level-cap is, traditionally, endgame in an MMO. For the game to be healthy, endgame needs to have as broad an appeal as possible. Locking basic progression behind content traditionally avoided by large numbers of MMO players is not generating a “broad appeal.”

That said, I know that a lot of dev effort went into converting the XP system for Masteries. This may not be an easy fix. However, if ANet continues to focus new development on exclusionary reward systems, it could be bad for the game’s continued health. People are only going to take the message, “Hey, if you don’t want to do every single thing we develop, niche or not, endgame is not for you.” for so long.

Zoltar MacRoth.7146:

Obtena.7952:

Zoltar MacRoth.7146:

Obtena.7952:

this would require Anet to actually undo something that they decided was a better approach than the old way in the first place.* Seems rather stupid to make such a suggestion to me.

I’m sure you can see the irony in the bolded sentence.

Not really, but if you want to spell it out, go ahead. It’s generally bad practice to reverse your developments, especially if their isn’t anything wrong with their implementation.

Before the current wheel-style skill unlock system in our Hero panel, there was a skill tree system. Anet must have decided that was a good approach at the time since they implemented it yet they later decided to change it for something they consider an even better approach. You might say they reversed their development.

No one would call that a reversal … we haven’t gone back to that original tree system. #examplefails.

AliamRationem.5172:

Obtena.7952:

Not really, but if you want to spell it out, go ahead. It’s generally bad practice to reverse your developments, especially if their isn’t anything wrong with their implementation.

That’s not true. WoW does it. GW2 does it. It’s not even uncommon.

Not saying it doesn’t happen. I’m saying it’s not a good practice.

Obtena.7952:

Zoltar MacRoth.7146:

Obtena.7952:

Zoltar MacRoth.7146:

Obtena.7952:

this would require Anet to actually undo something that they decided was a better approach than the old way in the first place.* Seems rather stupid to make such a suggestion to me.

I’m sure you can see the irony in the bolded sentence.

Not really, but if you want to spell it out, go ahead. It’s generally bad practice to reverse your developments, especially if their isn’t anything wrong with their implementation.

Before the current wheel-style skill unlock system in our Hero panel, there was a skill tree system. Anet must have decided that was a good approach at the time since they implemented it yet they later decided to change it for something they consider an even better approach. You might say they reversed their development.

No one would call that a reversal … we haven’t gone back to that original tree system. #examplefails.

I’m trying really hard to believe you’re not intentionally misrepresenting what people say, but you’re not making it easy. You argued that:

Obtena.7952:

this would require Anet to actually undo something that they decided was a better approach than the old way in the first place

I put it to you that they made the first skill system (tree) then undid it and made the second system. Your straw man that “we haven’t gone back to that original tree system” is my example can get in line with all your other straw men, like the one that this thread is about laziness.

For other examples, every time anet buffs something they previously nerfed or vica versa is another case of them undoing a previous decision. Frankly, I’m with General Health on this and wouldn’t call anything a ‘reversal’ – it’s all improvements. But you’re not going to accept any example, are you? You’re determined to prove some point, though honestly I don’t know what it is. The original point of this post was that lumping raids with HoT masteries was a bad design. I still agree with that. I don’t see how it hurts you if this is changed or why you continue to rail against it so passionately and, sometimes, disingenuously.

Obtena.7952:

AliamRationem.5172:

Obtena.7952:

Not really, but if you want to spell it out, go ahead. It’s generally bad practice to reverse your developments, especially if their isn’t anything wrong with their implementation.

That’s not true. WoW does it. GW2 does it. It’s not even uncommon.

Not saying it doesn’t happen. I’m saying it’s not a good practice.

According to you. To others, iterative developmental improvements in response to changing needs are the sign of a healthy application.

You don’t seem to understand the difference between implementing something different and reverting back to something that was something already done.

Zoltar MacRoth.7146:

According to you. To others, iterative developmental improvements in response to changing needs are the sign of a healthy application.

Except we aren’t talking about iterative developmental improvement here because going back to giving shards without unlocking masteries is simply going back to the way it was prior to the change. There is no improvement here; they spent resources to get exactly zero …

so yes, there is no strawman; the idea they go back to what they did before is rather ridiculous and DOES have a very strong business element to it because business don’t take lightly to wasting their resources. Furthermore, defending that change as an iterative developmental improvement is disingenuous.

sophiewhite.3149:

General Health.9678:

Djinn.9245:

The objection is how the game has gone from being able to get XP for your character by doing anything you want in the game, to not being able to get XP/Spirit Shards unless you follow the very narrow path that Anet has dictated.

Maybe many players don’t mind this lack of choice. Or maybe Spirit Shards aren’t something that they need or want. But going from complete freedom of choice to a single path for progressing my character is not fun game play for me. I prefer choices.

Apples and oranges, you can’t compare pre-hot to post-hot and add shards.

I’m really unclear whether you’re complaining because this is affecting you or if you’re complaining on behalf of everyone because the wider playerbase doesn’t seem be complaining about this, it’s mentioned in a couple of places and people are either “do a simple raid”, “who cares about shards” or “oh my god this game sucks because anet forces us to raid (or whatever flavour of the month thing it is people suddenly take offence to)”. If you personally need to raid as the last thing to unlock spirit shards and you really, really want shards.. join a guild that offers training raids and just run one. It’s one tiny thing being blown out of all proportion.

Maybe there will be another way to get spirit shards in the future, maybe there’ll even be a need for them in the future.. in the meantime, try raids, might even enjoy them. Chances are if you are already frustrated by the rest of HoT you will not be able to but plenty of people here will show you round the HoT maps if you ask and the metas are really good fun, missing out if you’ve not tried them.

honestly im not sure how people can hate raids when they clearly never gave them a chance. find a guild. theyll group you up and youll never need to do it again.

Probably because they can’t give them a chance is why they hate raids.

Obtena.7952:

we aren’t talking about iterative developmental improvement here because going back to giving shards without unlocking masteries is simply going back to the way it was prior to the change. There is no improvement here; they spent resources to get exactly zero …

What change exactly? The reward system for xp has gone through several stages and before the last change, there wasn’t a reward for xp past cap – even for people who have unlocked all masteries. What period in the game are you talking about going back to?

Obtena.7952:

so yes, there is no strawman; the idea they go back to what they did before is rather ridiculous and DOES have a very strong business element to it because business don’t take lightly to wasting their resources. Furthermore, defending that change as an iterative developmental improvement is disingenuous.

The straw man is still there, in your claim that “the idea they go back to what they did before” is what’s being asked here, whatever that even means. That a complete reversal of the reward system is being asked for. Nobody is demanding what you claim is being demanded.

Here’s a reward system that gives spirit shards under certain conditions.
In central, the condition is that central masteries must be completed.
In HoT the condition is HoT masteries and raid masteries.
Nobody is asking for the reward system to be completely reversed as you’re implying. The system is fine – it’s just that the latter condition should not include the raid masteries.
To get rewards in HoT maps you would still have to complete all HoT masteries.
This isn’t a request from laziness, as you also keep implying. It’s consistency between HoT and central, and allowing open worlders to choose raiding rather than being herded into it deceptively. That was the point of my original post here and I regret getting drawn into a long argument over what should be a simple point.

Obtena.7952:

You don’t seem to understand the difference between implementing something different and reverting back to something that was something already done.

Zoltar MacRoth.7146:

According to you. To others, iterative developmental improvements in response to changing needs are the sign of a healthy application.

Except we aren’t talking about iterative developmental improvement here because going back to giving shards without unlocking masteries is simply going back to the way it was prior to the change. There is no improvement here; they spent resources to get exactly zero …

so yes, there is no strawman; the idea they go back to what they did before is rather ridiculous and DOES have a very strong business element to it because business don’t take lightly to wasting their resources. Furthermore, defending that change as an iterative developmental improvement is disingenuous.

I may have missed where anyone asked that we go back to the way it was prior to the change. Why would anyone ask for no reward from post-cap experience after a reward system was put in place?

I don’t think they need to remove any content. The problem is blocking progress by requiring us to complete that new content. It should be created and self sufficient enough to survive on it’s own rewards, and not be required to get something we used to get already in the past.
Blocking progress makes it punishment content. Regardless of how entertaining it is, when it’s required, many will refuse to take part. Block progress in enough areas and players simply leave. There are just too many other good games coming, and out, that allow us to play what WE like.
The sooner they get this, the longer the game will last.

AliamRationem.5172:

Obtena.7952:

You don’t seem to understand the difference between implementing something different and reverting back to something that was something already done.

Zoltar MacRoth.7146:

According to you. To others, iterative developmental improvements in response to changing needs are the sign of a healthy application.

Except we aren’t talking about iterative developmental improvement here because going back to giving shards without unlocking masteries is simply going back to the way it was prior to the change. There is no improvement here; they spent resources to get exactly zero …

so yes, there is no strawman; the idea they go back to what they did before is rather ridiculous and DOES have a very strong business element to it because business don’t take lightly to wasting their resources. Furthermore, defending that change as an iterative developmental improvement is disingenuous.

I may have missed where anyone asked that we go back to the way it was prior to the change. Why would anyone ask for no reward from post-cap experience after a reward system was put in place?

There WAS rewards for capping experience … spirit shards. That’s what the whole thread is talking about. Am I in the twilight zone here or something?

Obtena.7952:

AliamRationem.5172:

Obtena.7952:

You don’t seem to understand the difference between implementing something different and reverting back to something that was something already done.

Zoltar MacRoth.7146:

According to you. To others, iterative developmental improvements in response to changing needs are the sign of a healthy application.

Except we aren’t talking about iterative developmental improvement here because going back to giving shards without unlocking masteries is simply going back to the way it was prior to the change. There is no improvement here; they spent resources to get exactly zero …

so yes, there is no strawman; the idea they go back to what they did before is rather ridiculous and DOES have a very strong business element to it because business don’t take lightly to wasting their resources. Furthermore, defending that change as an iterative developmental improvement is disingenuous.

I may have missed where anyone asked that we go back to the way it was prior to the change. Why would anyone ask for no reward from post-cap experience after a reward system was put in place?

There WAS rewards for capping experience … spirit shards. That’s what the whole thread is talking about. Am I in the twilight zone here or something?

Some people started after HoT. True story.
For those people getting anything, including XP at all, after mastery cap is new.

And then those people should frankly ‘excuse’ themselves from the conversation, because for them, there isn’t any change in how shards are earned; for them, it’s always been necessary to unlock masteries to earn shards with XP.

Obtena.7952:

AliamRationem.5172:

Obtena.7952:

You don’t seem to understand the difference between implementing something different and reverting back to something that was something already done.

Zoltar MacRoth.7146:

According to you. To others, iterative developmental improvements in response to changing needs are the sign of a healthy application.

Except we aren’t talking about iterative developmental improvement here because going back to giving shards without unlocking masteries is simply going back to the way it was prior to the change. There is no improvement here; they spent resources to get exactly zero …

so yes, there is no strawman; the idea they go back to what they did before is rather ridiculous and DOES have a very strong business element to it because business don’t take lightly to wasting their resources. Furthermore, defending that change as an iterative developmental improvement is disingenuous.

I may have missed where anyone asked that we go back to the way it was prior to the change. Why would anyone ask for no reward from post-cap experience after a reward system was put in place?

There WAS rewards for capping experience … spirit shards. That’s what the whole thread is talking about. Am I in the twilight zone here or something?

Once Spirit Shards were created, there has never been a way to acquire them through XP bars. When the old Skill Points were removed (and split into Spirit Shards and Hero Points), we received nothing for completely filling out XP bars. We received no rewards whatsoever for 6-8 months, until HoT launched and Masteries became a thing.

Obtena.7952:

And then those people should frankly ‘excuse’ themselves from the conversation, because for them, there isn’t any change in how shards are earned; for them, it’s always been necessary to unlock masteries to earn shards with XP.

^Yes!!!!!!!!!! Agree!!!!!

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

Obtena.7952:

AliamRationem.5172:

Obtena.7952:

You don’t seem to understand the difference between implementing something different and reverting back to something that was something already done.

Zoltar MacRoth.7146:

According to you. To others, iterative developmental improvements in response to changing needs are the sign of a healthy application.

Except we aren’t talking about iterative developmental improvement here because going back to giving shards without unlocking masteries is simply going back to the way it was prior to the change. There is no improvement here; they spent resources to get exactly zero …

so yes, there is no strawman; the idea they go back to what they did before is rather ridiculous and DOES have a very strong business element to it because business don’t take lightly to wasting their resources. Furthermore, defending that change as an iterative developmental improvement is disingenuous.

I may have missed where anyone asked that we go back to the way it was prior to the change. Why would anyone ask for no reward from post-cap experience after a reward system was put in place?

There WAS rewards for capping experience … spirit shards. That’s what the whole thread is talking about. Am I in the twilight zone here or something?

Once Spirit Shards were created, there has never been a way to acquire them through XP bars. When the old Skill Points were removed (and split into Spirit Shards and Hero Points), we received nothing for completely filling out XP bars. We received no rewards whatsoever for 6-8 months, until HoT launched and Masteries became a thing.

I’m glad someone recalled this history because it illustrates the fundamental problem with this thread. For a period we didn’t get anything for XP bars … yet where was everyone then? I can tell you, they didn’t care because no one really expects to get something for XP once they level.

So what’s the problem here? The current situation is an improvement over getting nothing like it was for the 6 months … Oh, let me tell you in case we have forgotten … the problem isn’t that people don’t get a reward for XP (otherwise it would have been chaos around here for those 6 months). The problem is that people wanting additional spirit shards but without having to do the necessary activities to get it.

Obtena.7952:

Inculpatus cedo.9234:

Obtena.7952:

AliamRationem.5172:

Obtena.7952:

You don’t seem to understand the difference between implementing something different and reverting back to something that was something already done.

Zoltar MacRoth.7146:

According to you. To others, iterative developmental improvements in response to changing needs are the sign of a healthy application.

Except we aren’t talking about iterative developmental improvement here because going back to giving shards without unlocking masteries is simply going back to the way it was prior to the change. There is no improvement here; they spent resources to get exactly zero …

so yes, there is no strawman; the idea they go back to what they did before is rather ridiculous and DOES have a very strong business element to it because business don’t take lightly to wasting their resources. Furthermore, defending that change as an iterative developmental improvement is disingenuous.

I may have missed where anyone asked that we go back to the way it was prior to the change. Why would anyone ask for no reward from post-cap experience after a reward system was put in place?

There WAS rewards for capping experience … spirit shards. That’s what the whole thread is talking about. Am I in the twilight zone here or something?

Once Spirit Shards were created, there has never been a way to acquire them through XP bars. When the old Skill Points were removed (and split into Spirit Shards and Hero Points), we received nothing for completely filling out XP bars. We received no rewards whatsoever for 6-8 months, until HoT launched and Masteries became a thing.

I’m glad someone recalled this history because it illustrates the fundamental problem with this thread. For a period we didn’t get anything for XP bars … yet where was everyone then? I can tell you, they didn’t care because no one really expects to get something for XP once they level.

So what’s the problem here? The current situation is an improvement over getting nothing like it was for the 6 months … Oh, let me tell you in case we have forgotten … the problem isn’t that people don’t get a reward for XP (otherwise it would have been chaos around here for those 6 months). The problem is that people wanting additional spirit shards but without having to do the necessary activities to get it.

The point of the thread is (again) “Non Raiders blocked from XP bar spirit shards”. I.e.: we can’t get the same reward as everyone else unless we participate in raiding. And we’ve already been told how we can get Spirit Shards in other places besides the XP bar, but perhaps we’d like the Spirit Shards from those places AND the XP bar. Anet themselves have called raids “the ultimate challenge”. Not every player is interested in this mode of play and not every non-raider will be able to find groups for it if they want to try. Mastery completion should not be locked behind raiding.

There is no point to the thread then … it goes without saying that if you don’t do an activity, you don’t get the reward … I mean, how entitled do you want to be here? There is no “it shouldn’t be locked behind raiding”. There is no law or morality what Anet can and can’t do here. There is not a reason for this ADDITIONAL reward of spirit shards to not be locked behind raiding, other than the fact that people don’t want to raid but want spirit shards. Not being interested in a mode of play doesn’t qualify you to deserve rewards as a result of that mode. How obtuse is that kind of thinking?

Obtena.7952:

There is no point to the thread then … it goes without saying that if you don’t do an activity, you don’t get the reward … I mean, how entitled do you want to be here? There is no “it shouldn’t be locked behind raiding”. There is no law or morality what Anet can and can’t do here. There is not a reason for this ADDITIONAL reward of spirit shards to not be locked behind raiding, other than the fact that people don’t want to raid but want spirit shards. Not being interested in a mode of play doesn’t qualify you to deserve rewards as a result of that mode. How obtuse is that kind of thinking?

With the old skill point system, the spirit shard xp reward equivalent didn’t require any specific content. The new system added additional requirements. Also, I see no reason why raiders should get additional rewards from non-raid content. Should we also make it so PvPers get additional magnetite shards when they raid? It sounds pretty irrational to me. If spirit shards are supposed to be an xp reward, then it should be awarded to everyone who playes content that gives xp.

The reward for doing raids is legendary armor and access to certain stat sets for pieces of gear otherwise either unobtainable or difficult to obtain. There is no reason raiders should get increased access to rewards related to doing things OUTSIDE of raids.

For comparison, would it be reasonable for only legendary rank pvp players to get spirit shards from experience gained in PvE? If A-net wanted to do so it would certainly be their right as a company, but at the same time I think most people would find the idea patently ridiculous. The situation is the same here. Raiders are not given just the rewards for doing a particular raid wing itself, they’re also given a pedestal over other players in terms of the rewards for any activity that awards experience.

Don’t get me wrong, I really couldn’t care less about the spirit shards themselves. I’ll likely never even use those I already have. What I do care about is A-net setting a precedent of allowing raids to affect the rest of the game beyond basic balance tweaks. You must understand how, for those of us who don’t raid, that might be a bit concerning.

Obtena.7952:

I’m glad someone recalled this history because it illustrates the fundamental problem with this thread. For a period we didn’t get anything for XP bars … yet where was everyone then? I can tell you, they didn’t care because no one really expects to get something for XP once they level.

So what’s the problem here? The current situation is an improvement over getting nothing like it was for the 6 months … Oh, let me tell you in case we have forgotten … the problem isn’t that people don’t get a reward for XP (otherwise it would have been chaos around here for those 6 months). The problem is that people wanting additional spirit shards but without having to do the necessary activities to get it.

In my case, I wasn’t playing GW2 yet. I’m new to the game this year. But if you had asked me before I played GW2 whether it’s generally poor design to reward nothing for experience gained, you can be sure my answer would have been no different.

In my opinion, it would be superior design to provide this reward independent of the mastery system. The mastery system is its own progression and reward track. I suggest a reward track for experience the same way we have for achievement points.

As you say, there is no reason it has to be any which way. There is no moral obligation here. Poor design may cost the company money, but ultimately they determine the priority. So why don’t you relax and let people make their suggestions? ANet will make the call.

Onlysaneman.9612:

What I do care about is A-net setting a precedent of allowing raids to affect the rest of the game beyond basic balance tweaks. You must understand how, for those of us who don’t raid, that might be a bit concerning.

This, and Anet gating character progress behind other game modes in general.

Djinn.9245:

Onlysaneman.9612:

What I do care about is A-net setting a precedent of allowing raids to affect the rest of the game beyond basic balance tweaks. You must understand how, for those of us who don’t raid, that might be a bit concerning.

This, and Anet gating character progress behind other game modes in general.

It may be a concern but it’s already happening everywhere in the game since day 1. It’s already an established precedent.

Furthermore, this is not a gating of character progress … your progress is in no way gated by this. It’s disingenuous to refer to an additional reward from an activity as a barrier to how your character progresses. Nobody is your fool here.

Obtena.7952:

There is no point to the thread then … it goes without saying that if you don’t do an activity, you don’t get the reward …

If you think that there’s no point to this thread, then one has to wonder why you don’t ‘excuse’ yourself from the conversation and stop posting.

I was actually wondering why I found myself disagreeing with your posts as much as I did. After all, you are welcome to your own opinion, even if it differs with mine. However, there’s a very simple problem with your posts: You appear to be presenting your opinions as facts. However, a discussion like this is inherently subjective, not objective. To give a simple example of what I mean:

- You currently need to complete all masteries in a region (including raid masteries) to get spirit shards through XP – Fact (objective).
- This system is good/bad – An opinion (subjective).

Now, opinions generally aren’t right or wrong. Rather, you agree or disagree with them. For example, I may strongly disagree with your opinion, but that doesn’t make it any less valid. But it’s still an opinion, not an immutable law.

So tl;dr: No, it doesn’t ‘go without saying.’ Try ‘I strongly believe that people should only be rewarded if they achieve certain things/fulfil certain requirements’ or something similar instead. That’s far more persuasive and nuanced, and something I could actually agree with (to a certain extent).

Now, as far as I can see it, there are three main strands of thinking/opinions:

A: The current system is fine, people should do all masteries (including raid masteries) to unlock spirit shards through XP.
B: People should not have to do raid masteries (because they’re ‘elite’ content), but do need to finish all other (non-raid) mastery tracks to unlock spirit shards through XP.
C: People should be able to freely switch to spirit shards for XP regardless of mastery track completion (possibly implemented as a permanently looping mastery/reward track).

Personally, I’m most in favour of option B. I like the idea of having to put in some work to unlock spirit shards for XP as a reward – I just don’t think (like a number of others) that raids should be a requirement, as it excludes a very large portion of the player base and was marketed as ‘elite’ content, meant for a minority.

As for option C, I could see the merits of doing things this way, even if it doesn’t hold my own preference. Most importantly however, it wouldn’t affect me whether other people had easier access to spirit shards or not. As such, why would I oppose such a change, exactly? All it would do is provide a quality of life improvement to other people while not in any way affecting my own. I wouldn’t begrudge them this.

Now, to play the Devil’s advocate for a moment, each of the options mentioned above has its advantages and disadvantages. For instance, option A might get people who would otherwise never even considered raiding to at the very least give it a try. At the same time, it might also cause a number of players to resent raids or even the game as a whole for making them feel that they’re forced into content they’re not interested in, which could harm player retention in the long run. Option B would still see people complain about being unable to get spirit shards because they’re lacking in mastery points (and thus unable to finish the mastery track), while option C could see people complain about ‘spoiling’ players and rewarding them for not doing anything. The latter is not an opinion which I hold or agree with, but as this thread shows, some do.

At the end of the day though, whatever Anet does, they can’t please everybody. The best thing they can try to please as many people as possible without compromising their own views for the game, whatever those might be.

PS to Obtena: You may want to refrain from repeating the word ‘disingenuous’ over and over again. I know it’s a wonderful word to use (so far you’ve used it 5 times in this thread), but it has begun to weaken your arguments rather than strengthen them.

I will freely admit to being ignorant of all of the details of earning and using spirit shards as well as masteries and raids as I have not maxed my masteries, nor played the raid.

But, honest question here, is it possible to earn spirit shards through xp, without raiding, in core Tyria?

Pretty sure that if you max the tyria mastery lines you get spirit shards in core tyria when you level. So it’s also gated in core, not sure why we’re fixated on HoT.

General Health.9678:

Pretty sure that if you max the tyria mastery lines you get spirit shards in core tyria when you level. So it’s also gated in core, not sure why we’re fixated on HoT.

Because the OP’s topic is about the need to raid to get shards from XP in HoT. The raid Mastery is part of the HoT line, not the Central Tyria line. I don’t know about anyone else, but I have not expressed my opinion about gating in Central T. because it would be off topic.

Ashen.2907:

I will freely admit to being ignorant of all of the details of earning and using spirit shards as well as masteries and raids as I have not maxed my masteries, nor played the raid.

But, honest question here, is it possible to earn spirit shards through xp, without raiding, in core Tyria?

Yes, if you complete all of the Tyria Masteries.

General Health.9678:

Pretty sure that if you max the tyria mastery lines you get spirit shards in core tyria when you level. So it’s also gated in core, not sure why we’re fixated on HoT.

Cause a lot of people aren’t leveling in core Tyria anymore?

IndigoSundown.5419:

Ashen.2907:

I will freely admit to being ignorant of all of the details of earning and using spirit shards as well as masteries and raids as I have not maxed my masteries, nor played the raid.

But, honest question here, is it possible to earn spirit shards through xp, without raiding, in core Tyria?

Yes, if you complete all of the Tyria Masteries.

So, just to clarify, Non Raiders are not blocked from earning spirit shards through XP? There is, apparently, more than one approaches provided, allowing people who do not want to raid an alternative approach to earning spirit shards through XP?

Ashen.2907:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Ashen.2907:

I will freely admit to being ignorant of all of the details of earning and using spirit shards as well as masteries and raids as I have not maxed my masteries, nor played the raid.

But, honest question here, is it possible to earn spirit shards through xp, without raiding, in core Tyria?

Yes, if you complete all of the Tyria Masteries.

So, just to clarify, Non Raiders are not blocked from earning spirit shards through XP? There is, apparently, more than one approaches provided, allowing people who do not want to raid an alternative approach to earning spirit shards through XP?

To clarify, it’s not about spirit shards. It’s about xp after mastery completion meaning something which some players, myself included, find satisfaction in. The issue is that core maps reward for post-mastery xp simply by finishing central masteries. However, HoT maps don’t reward for completing all HoT masteries – UNLESS the raid masteries are also completed. This disparity is the core of this discussion because it feels like an attempt by anet to herd non-raiders into raiding.

Zoltar MacRoth.7146:

Ashen.2907:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Ashen.2907:

I will freely admit to being ignorant of all of the details of earning and using spirit shards as well as masteries and raids as I have not maxed my masteries, nor played the raid.

But, honest question here, is it possible to earn spirit shards through xp, without raiding, in core Tyria?

Yes, if you complete all of the Tyria Masteries.

So, just to clarify, Non Raiders are not blocked from earning spirit shards through XP? There is, apparently, more than one approaches provided, allowing people who do not want to raid an alternative approach to earning spirit shards through XP?

To clarify, it’s not about spirit shards. It’s about xp after mastery completion meaning something which some players, myself included, find satisfaction in. The issue is that core maps reward for post-mastery xp simply by finishing central masteries. However, HoT maps don’t reward for completing all HoT masteries – UNLESS the raid masteries are also completed. This disparity is the core of this discussion because it feels like an attempt by anet to herd non-raiders into raiding.

I think that it might be about spirit shards. This is what the OP, in his opening post, said in summation:

MashMash.1645:

You have to raid to get free Spirit Shards.

He was, apparently, mistaken. You do not have to raid to get free spirit shards.

Ashen.2907:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Ashen.2907:

I will freely admit to being ignorant of all of the details of earning and using spirit shards as well as masteries and raids as I have not maxed my masteries, nor played the raid.

But, honest question here, is it possible to earn spirit shards through xp, without raiding, in core Tyria?

Yes, if you complete all of the Tyria Masteries.

So, just to clarify, Non Raiders are not blocked from earning spirit shards through XP? There is, apparently, more than one approaches provided, allowing people who do not want to raid an alternative approach to earning spirit shards through XP?

Correct. I’m sure you can parse this list a few different ways, but to earn spirit shards you can:

1. Complete your daily.
2. Use tomes of knowledge on a level 80 character.
3. Play WvW and open reward containers. (May drop from kills in WvW?)
4. Play PvP and open reward containers.
5. Play PvE as a level 80 character. Get drops and open bags.
6. Open Noxious Pod in Dragon’s Stand. (I didn’t know that ’til now).
7. Complete your Core Tyrian Masteries, and gain enough experience to level up in Core Tyria maps.
8. Complete your HoT Masteries and gain enough experience to level up in HoT maps.

The last two are the new ones.

Ashen.2907:

Zoltar MacRoth.7146:

Ashen.2907:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Ashen.2907:

I will freely admit to being ignorant of all of the details of earning and using spirit shards as well as masteries and raids as I have not maxed my masteries, nor played the raid.

But, honest question here, is it possible to earn spirit shards through xp, without raiding, in core Tyria?

Yes, if you complete all of the Tyria Masteries.

So, just to clarify, Non Raiders are not blocked from earning spirit shards through XP? There is, apparently, more than one approaches provided, allowing people who do not want to raid an alternative approach to earning spirit shards through XP?

To clarify, it’s not about spirit shards. It’s about xp after mastery completion meaning something which some players, myself included, find satisfaction in. The issue is that core maps reward for post-mastery xp simply by finishing central masteries. However, HoT maps don’t reward for completing all HoT masteries – UNLESS the raid masteries are also completed. This disparity is the core of this discussion because it feels like an attempt by anet to herd non-raiders into raiding.

I think that it might be about spirit shards. This is what the OP, in his opening post, said in summation:

MashMash.1645:

You have to raid to get free Spirit Shards.

He was, apparently, mistaken. You do not have to raid to get free spirit shards.

Fair enough. I was getting OT there. My apologies.

Mercure.5689:

Obtena.7952:

There is no point to the thread then … it goes without saying that if you don’t do an activity, you don’t get the reward …

If you think that there’s no point to this thread, then one has to wonder why you don’t ‘excuse’ yourself from the conversation and stop posting.

I’m just pointing out that if the statement that the poster was making was correct, THEN the thread had little point. Is there value in complaining that a reward is not given to people that don’t do the activity that gives it? I don’t think so. That’s what this thread boils down to according to the person I was responding to.

Djinn.9245:

General Health.9678:

Pretty sure that if you max the tyria mastery lines you get spirit shards in core tyria when you level. So it’s also gated in core, not sure why we’re fixated on HoT.

Cause a lot of people aren’t leveling in core Tyria anymore?

That doesn’t mean they can’t if they want shards though XP … again, this isn’t BK … you can’t get it ‘your way’. You don’t get to dictate to Anet what you are willing to do for a reward. That’s not how MMO’s work.

Ganathar.4956:

If spirit shards are supposed to be an xp reward, then it should be awarded to everyone who playes content that gives xp.

I think that’s a good point because shards aren’t JUST an XP reward anymore .. they have additional requirements as you mentioned. People can’t seem to get their head around this.

so anet’s main reward system for new content is exp. I see no use for this as a level 80 but maybe they will add some things you can buy with spirit shards. so here is my problem. my exp bar is locked even though I have the masteries to max it. in order to do so I need to get a boss kill in raids. I can listen on discord but 19/20 of my characters are useless in other players opinions. my mouse doesn’t turn fast enough to play characters without toughness. I have an irl learning disorder that I don’t like talking about so I know teaching me anything can be a feat. I write this in the hopes someone else can help. the next section I write is in the hope that anet will see it and understand there is a problem that needs to be fixed.

For anet: problems encountered trying to get raids done to unlock bar.

1.the elitist cookie cutter scourge that flunked dungeons out of being updated strikes again in raids. only one build is allowed per class and only certain classes are even allowed. this could be fixed by making all raids a DCUO style hot join.

2. bar is locked until raid content can be done. please consider making raids their own mastery bar. that is to say while in hot or tyria a maxed bar would consist of heart of thorns masteries(except raids) and tyria would be central tyrian. this would allow players to stay away from all the crankiness in raids.

3. please do something about the player abuse occurring in unmonitored voip. which almost all players require for most content in groups. I have had every use of these programs result in social encounters that violate the gw2 code of conduct. but the players get away with it because it wasn’t in gw2 chat. possible solutions could be adding built in voip to gw2 that IS monitored. I realize short of this there is no solution shy of declaring voip to be 3rd party programs. which would upset a lot of players.

4. the only training run I managed (after hours of waiting) resulted in me being yelled at for over 4 hrs and still not getting the unlock. this is unacceptable

if the main reward for new content was not tons of exp. some of these issues would be mute. but it seems like the direction things are going.

Frustrated and confused. gw2 can and should be better then this.

if you dont raid anyway, you dont need the masteries, they are entirely useless to non raiders, your complaint is equally as pointless as spirit shards are