Guild Wars 2

MiniEquine.6014:

Neox.3497:

I wonder what people would call “League of Legends” if you could only buy the new champions with real money.

That would be pretty much the same. But blah blah blah. Yes Im wrong I know.

League is a Freemium game. It’s tough to compare the two. Also, you are wrong if you still don’t understand that an expansion is not Pay2Win. As others have stated, we’re not debating the definition of Pay2Win, as it is an established game payment method with a definition, but you are.

I’m talking about sPvP.
Also pay 2 win isn’t an established game payment method.
But it seems I’m talking to walls. I should have stopped 10 posts already…

Neox.3497:

MiniEquine.6014:

Neox.3497:

I wonder what people would call “League of Legends” if you could only buy the new champions with real money.

That would be pretty much the same. But blah blah blah. Yes Im wrong I know.

League is a Freemium game. It’s tough to compare the two. Also, you are wrong if you still don’t understand that an expansion is not Pay2Win. As others have stated, we’re not debating the definition of Pay2Win, as it is an established game payment method with a definition, but you are.

I’m talking about sPvP.
Also pay 2 win isn’t an established game payment method.
But it seems I’m talking to walls. I should have stopped 10 posts already…

We’re only walls because Pay2Win is an established method, and despite us informing you this entire thread you’ve done nothing but deny it. Feel free to think what you like, but the only wall here is you.

Neox.3497:

MiniEquine.6014:

Neox.3497:

I wonder what people would call “League of Legends” if you could only buy the new champions with real money.

That would be pretty much the same. But blah blah blah. Yes Im wrong I know.

League is a Freemium game. It’s tough to compare the two. Also, you are wrong if you still don’t understand that an expansion is not Pay2Win. As others have stated, we’re not debating the definition of Pay2Win, as it is an established game payment method with a definition, but you are.

I’m talking about sPvP.
Also pay 2 win isn’t an established game payment method.
But it seems I’m talking to walls. I should have stopped 10 posts already…

Established game payment method? Of course it isn’t. That isn’t something they will advertise. “Come play our new P2W game! Give us cash and you win!” Pay to win is when you spend money on microtransactions to get an advantage over other players. Box sales and expansions don’t count as content is tied to them as well. If you are able to strictly buy power over other players, that is pay to win. I don’t understand why you refuse to acknowledge this.

Ralanost.8913:

Box sales and expansions don’t count as content is tied to them as well. If you are able to strictly buy power over other players, that is pay to win.

So if the power is in a box sale or expansion how is that not pay to win?

HoT is not P2W. You pay once to unlock content, this is the definition of B2P, not P2W.

It would be P2W if the expansion made you stronger and ou could buy it as many times as you want and each time you bought it stacked power over the other times, or in other words, if I could buy HoT 10 times and get a lot more powerful than a guy that bought it once.

For what we know so far, HoT won’t even make you more powerful to the point of wrecking everything on sPvP just for having an specialization or playing the revenant… And even if it does, I am very sure that Anet will balance it again.

Neox.3497:

Ralanost.8913:

Box sales and expansions don’t count as content is tied to them as well. If you are able to strictly buy power over other players, that is pay to win.

So if the power is in a box sale or expansion how is that not pay to win?

Because Pay2Win is being able to repeatedly purchase power with real cash, where you outspending other players means that you have an objectively better starting point than them. You cannot spend any more money on an expansion than anybody else, and even if you can, then it is for vanity items or extra bag slots, both of which have no effect on any game mode. You cannot outspend other players with an expansion. Therefore it is Buy2Play.

Neox.3497:

Ralanost.8913:

Box sales and expansions don’t count as content is tied to them as well. If you are able to strictly buy power over other players, that is pay to win.

So if the power is in a box sale or expansion how is that not pay to win?

Because it is not power, it is content. There is a huge difference.

If they added a consumable item that can improve one stat on a character permanently and can only be bought through real money transactions, then it would be P2W.

Heck, in that case, I would agree to call it P2W even if it was on GW2 TP, available for gems that can be bought for in game currency…

MiniEquine.6014:

Neox.3497:

Ralanost.8913:

Box sales and expansions don’t count as content is tied to them as well. If you are able to strictly buy power over other players, that is pay to win.

So if the power is in a box sale or expansion how is that not pay to win?

Because Pay2Win is being able to repeatedly purchase power with real cash, where you outspending other players means that you have an objectively better starting point than them. You cannot spend any more money on an expansion than anybody else, and even if you can, then it is for vanity items or extra bag slots, both of which have no effect on any game mode. You cannot outspend other players with an expansion. Therefore it is Buy2Play.

But you can “play” without buying the expansion. How is it buy 2 play?

Why is this topic still active…
MMOs make money from expansions, just as single player games make money from sequels and DLCs.
You got what you payed for, if you want more then pay more.

/thread

Neox.3497:

Ralanost.8913:

Box sales and expansions don’t count as content is tied to them as well. If you are able to strictly buy power over other players, that is pay to win.

So if the power is in a box sale or expansion how is that not pay to win?

Didn’t I say microtransactions? Box sales and expansions aren’t those. They add content and longevity into the game. Comparing that to something unique you can get via the cash shop that gives you an advantage over non paying customers is a large difference.

For instance, anyone going into the new content is on a level playing field. People in the old content without the expansion even still get quality of life updates, but they just don’t get the new content. There is nothing to say that a person that just plays pvp will have to get the expansion, they will be just as competitive now as they will be once HoT launches. Nothing in HoT will give a numerical advantage over them. It’s just more options, ie more content.

It’s pretty much impossible to call anything in GW2 p2w as you can get gems from in game gold. So anything they add to the cash shop is basically just adding to the game. They are just trying out expansions since the little updates weren’t satisfying to a decent amount of customers. Since they are backloading content, they need revenue to fund it. That is why expansions cost money.

Neox.3497:

MiniEquine.6014:

Neox.3497:

Ralanost.8913:

Box sales and expansions don’t count as content is tied to them as well. If you are able to strictly buy power over other players, that is pay to win.

So if the power is in a box sale or expansion how is that not pay to win?

Because Pay2Win is being able to repeatedly purchase power with real cash, where you outspending other players means that you have an objectively better starting point than them. You cannot spend any more money on an expansion than anybody else, and even if you can, then it is for vanity items or extra bag slots, both of which have no effect on any game mode. You cannot outspend other players with an expansion. Therefore it is Buy2Play.

But you can “play” without buying the expansion. How is it buy 2 play?

How is what Buy2Play? You can’t play the expansion content without buying the expansion. You can’t play the base game without buying the base game.

Ralanost.8913:

Neox.3497:

Ralanost.8913:

Box sales and expansions don’t count as content is tied to them as well. If you are able to strictly buy power over other players, that is pay to win.

So if the power is in a box sale or expansion how is that not pay to win?

Didn’t I say microtransactions? Box sales and expansions aren’t those. They add content and longevity into the game. Comparing that to something unique you can get via the cash shop that gives you an advantage over non paying customers is a large difference.

If you think so. I think thats quite similliar. One just has much more stuff in it. You will also be able to buy the expansion online.
Also to repeat it I think it’s only slightly pay to win and totally acceptable especially since PvP is only a ‘rather smaller’ part of the main game.
It’s just if you look at it closely and ONLY look at the PvP part it’s like pay 2 win, the softer variants ofc.

MiniEquine.6014:

Neox.3497:

MiniEquine.6014:

Neox.3497:

Ralanost.8913:

Box sales and expansions don’t count as content is tied to them as well. If you are able to strictly buy power over other players, that is pay to win.

So if the power is in a box sale or expansion how is that not pay to win?

Because Pay2Win is being able to repeatedly purchase power with real cash, where you outspending other players means that you have an objectively better starting point than them. You cannot spend any more money on an expansion than anybody else, and even if you can, then it is for vanity items or extra bag slots, both of which have no effect on any game mode. You cannot outspend other players with an expansion. Therefore it is Buy2Play.

But you can “play” without buying the expansion. How is it buy 2 play?

How is what Buy2Play? You can’t play the expansion content without buying the expansion. You can’t play the base game without buying the base game.

In PvP you will play the same game as the people who bought the expansion but you are more limited on what to choose.

Neox.3497:

You will also be able to buy the expansion online.

This part is largely irrelevant. Whether you buy a digital copy or a hard copy at a brick and mokittenoesn’t change the product.

MiniEquine.6014:

Neox.3497:

You will also be able to buy the expansion online.

This part is largely irrelevant. Whether you buy a digital copy or a hard copy at a brick and mokittenoesn’t change the product.

That’s why it’s almost the same. Instead of buying product 1 (which is a new skill, potentially slightly more powerfull in the current patch) in the cash shop, you buy product 1 to 9001 (being everything in the expansion) online.

Couple of examples of pay to win
http://mmos.com/editorials/pay-to-win-mmorpgs
1) the ability to get stronger and better gear with a purchase that can’t be acquired by playing the game
“Forsaken World has a stat called resistance which can be trained for in-game gold or cash. The cost of training it increases exponentially, so non-paying members can only realistically train their resistances up to a certain point, while those willing to open up their wallets can train it much, much higher.”

2) debuffs put on players that require a purchase to remove in a reasonable amount of time
“Allods Online used to have a crippling debuff called “Fear of Death” that players would suffer through when they died. Players could wait up to 50 minutes for the debuff to go away on its own or pay for a removal with cash. This wasn’t seen as a pay for convenience, but rather “if I don’t pay, I can’t even play the game” sort of ordeal, since the debuff reduced offensive stats by a staggering 25%. "

Just a flesh wound.3589:

Couple of examples of pay to win
http://mmos.com/editorials/pay-to-win-mmorpgs
1) the ability to get stronger and better gear with a purchase that can’t be acquired by playing the game
“Forsaken World has a stat called resistance which can be trained for in-game gold or cash. The cost of training it increases exponentially, so non-paying members can only realistically train their resistances up to a certain point, while those willing to open up their wallets can train it much, much higher.”

2) debuffs put on players that require a purchase to remove in a reasonable amount of time
“Allods Online used to have a crippling debuff called “Fear of Death” that players would suffer through when they died. Players could wait up to 50 minutes for the debuff to go away on its own or pay for a removal with cash. This wasn’t seen as a pay for convenience, but rather “if I don’t pay, I can’t even play the game” sort of ordeal, since the debuff reduced offensive stats by a staggering 25%. "

That isn’t the only problem with Allods Online. The rune system is also EXTREMELY pay to win. You only get access to some of them in game and they give an extraordinarily large amount of power. If you spend very large sums of money, you can become obscenely powerful. And I’m talking about hundreds of dollars. In some cases over a thousand.

Do you know what pay to win means?

It means that the game offers some kind of avantage to people who use real life money for “special” in-game items.

An expansion is not included in those items. When you buy the game you expect (or better, hope) that an expansion will occur, which will include new features.

P2W would be to introduce a 5-10% dps increase only available through Gem Store. (Which in GW2’s case would still not be p2w because you can trade currencies)

So stop whining about P2W in the forums of one of the very MMOs who isn’t P2W in 2015

I guess this thing is on trend after other games debates with p2w… but no, GW2 is not a p2w, nothing else to add.

Guys, just give it up, it’s like explaining something to a door. He simply refuses to understand and thinks his twisted vision of what P2W game is right.

I just read 5 pages of people explaining what P2W means. Then the OP twisting the definition or backtracking to a question or example that was already explaining.

This is what wasted time feels like :I
https://youtu.be/wKjxFJfcrcA

Agreed, OP has no idea what pay2win means or is outright trolling.

The expansion is by definition (as in read it up in a frikken dictionary) perfectly viable BUY to play content.

Buying an expansion is now considered pay to win….

/facepalm

Well if you where playing an MMO and U finished everything on the base game wouldn’t u move onto the expansion pack anyway? I’m sure the specialisations will be balanced (in the long run) the specialisations are here just to add more options to a class through a new weapon and set of skills and mechanics so your beloved main can fulfil many of your dreams :p

Looking at GW1 and almost all games I’ve played, an expansion will give an advantage in new skills and ability’s you unlock if you own it.

In Gw1, you did have a skill unlock pack for each campaign, for those who where not interested in the content, but only in pvp-formats (you even have a pvp access kit, giving you only access to the pvp-parts of that game).

There is however nothing pay to win bout this, unless you want to call monthly subs pay to win as well (cause let’s face it, without paying those monthly subs, you can#t play, so you can’t win either).

The game is buy to play. This means that if you don’t buy the game, and don’t expand it, you will slack behind. Try beating GW1 prophecy’s without owning any of the other campaigns!

Just like to think what every thinks about this topic now that HoT has been out for a few months now

Buy 2 Play, not Pay 2 Win

People seriously need to learn what “pay to win” is. Go play Game of War or any similar mobile / browser game and then we can discuss “pay to win.” GW2 is not even remotely in the same arena.

Humphrey Bear.2698:

Just like to think what every thinks about this topic now that HoT has been out for a few months now

Was there an update that changed anything in the last few months?

No?

That’s what I thought. Still not p2w.

Humphrey Bear.2698:

Just like to think what every thinks about this topic now that HoT has been out for a few months now

I think this…

Windsagio.1340:

@Vayne, it does serve a purpose, it paints the setup in a negative moral light.

Accusations of pay-to-win over anything a poster doesn’t care for that cost money are a bald attempt to generate agreement and/or shame a developer by invoking a buzz-word, in this case an extremely loaded term that reeks of derision and scorn.

MiniEquine.6014:

Neox.3497:

MiniEquine.6014:

Neox.3497:

Ralanost.8913:

Box sales and expansions don’t count as content is tied to them as well. If you are able to strictly buy power over other players, that is pay to win.

So if the power is in a box sale or expansion how is that not pay to win?

Because Pay2Win is being able to repeatedly purchase power with real cash, where you outspending other players means that you have an objectively better starting point than them. You cannot spend any more money on an expansion than anybody else, and even if you can, then it is for vanity items or extra bag slots, both of which have no effect on any game mode. You cannot outspend other players with an expansion. Therefore it is Buy2Play.

But you can “play” without buying the expansion. How is it buy 2 play?

How is what Buy2Play? You can’t play the expansion content without buying the expansion. You can’t play the base game without buying the base game.

Base game was given away it’s free to play. The expansion is Buy To Play (for now).

IndigoSundown.5419:

Humphrey Bear.2698:

Just like to think what every thinks about this topic now that HoT has been out for a few months now

I think this…

Windsagio.1340:

@Vayne, it does serve a purpose, it paints the setup in a negative moral light.

Accusations of pay-to-win over anything a poster doesn’t care for that cost money are a bald attempt to generate agreement and/or shame a developer by invoking a buzz-word, in this case an extremely loaded term that reeks of derision and scorn.

Except for one point… In PvP and WvW where balance matters, the OP isn’t wrong. Elite specs are without question more powerful than base specs. More power behind a pay wall is what P2W means.

I think this thread is a bit over the top but balance is broken atm so have at it.

Aidenwolf.5964:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Humphrey Bear.2698:

Just like to think what every thinks about this topic now that HoT has been out for a few months now

I think this…

Windsagio.1340:

@Vayne, it does serve a purpose, it paints the setup in a negative moral light.

Accusations of pay-to-win over anything a poster doesn’t care for that cost money are a bald attempt to generate agreement and/or shame a developer by invoking a buzz-word, in this case an extremely loaded term that reeks of derision and scorn.

Except for one point… In PvP and WvW where balance matters, the OP isn’t wrong. Elite specs are without question more powerful than base specs. More power behind a pay wall is what P2W means.

I think this thread is a bit over the top but balance is broken atm so have at it.

Which may be resolved in tomorrow’s balance patch and subsequent patches.

Aidenwolf.5964:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Humphrey Bear.2698:

Just like to think what every thinks about this topic now that HoT has been out for a few months now

I think this…

Windsagio.1340:

@Vayne, it does serve a purpose, it paints the setup in a negative moral light.

Accusations of pay-to-win over anything a poster doesn’t care for that cost money are a bald attempt to generate agreement and/or shame a developer by invoking a buzz-word, in this case an extremely loaded term that reeks of derision and scorn.

Except for one point… In PvP and WvW where balance matters, the OP isn’t wrong. Elite specs are without question more powerful than base specs. More power behind a pay wall is what P2W means.

I think this thread is a bit over the top but balance is broken atm so have at it.

There is a subtle difference between unbalanced payed content and P2W content. It really depends only on ANet desire to balance thing properly, or to make it even worse and push sales. For now it’s hard to say. They are notorious for 1+year overdue balancing :P

Aidenwolf.5964:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Humphrey Bear.2698:

Just like to think what every thinks about this topic now that HoT has been out for a few months now

I think this…

Windsagio.1340:

@Vayne, it does serve a purpose, it paints the setup in a negative moral light.

Accusations of pay-to-win over anything a poster doesn’t care for that cost money are a bald attempt to generate agreement and/or shame a developer by invoking a buzz-word, in this case an extremely loaded term that reeks of derision and scorn.

Except for one point… In PvP and WvW where balance matters, the OP isn’t wrong. Elite specs are without question more powerful than base specs. More power behind a pay wall is what P2W means.

I think this thread is a bit over the top but balance is broken atm so have at it.

By that definition every game which has an expansion is an P2W game then.

Ohh yeah. This thread again.

A weapon that costs 60$ with +20% damage is “pay 2 win” in other “free 2 play” games.

However if you also get access to other content for the 60$ it’s suddenly not “pay 2 win”.

Remember that!

Also pay 2 win is an established game payment method. Everybody knows that.

There is no grey. Only black and white, good and evil, yes and no, 1 or 0, true or false. Because that’s how the world works! Right?

Aidenwolf.5964:

IndigoSundown.5419:

Humphrey Bear.2698:

Just like to think what every thinks about this topic now that HoT has been out for a few months now

I think this…

Windsagio.1340:

@Vayne, it does serve a purpose, it paints the setup in a negative moral light.

Accusations of pay-to-win over anything a poster doesn’t care for that cost money are a bald attempt to generate agreement and/or shame a developer by invoking a buzz-word, in this case an extremely loaded term that reeks of derision and scorn.

Except for one point… In PvP and WvW where balance matters, the OP isn’t wrong. Elite specs are without question more powerful than base specs. More power behind a pay wall is what P2W means.

I think this thread is a bit over the top but balance is broken atm so have at it.

So name an MMORPG where this isn’t the case? If EVERY MMORPG is p2w, then what meaning do those words actually have. Don’t you have a raised level cap in most MMOs? Doesn’t that make you more powerful?

In that case, this is the least pay to win of all MMOs, because there are still specs you can use without buying Heart of Thorns. In most MMOs that’s not the case.

Pay to win has traditionally been used to apply to cash shop transactions, not expansions. It was used to indicate legit MMOs from those that sell power in the cash shop.

If you change the definition you change the original meaning. Then you can SAY that this game is P2W. But since every other MMORPG will also be pay to win, what’s the point exactly?

other game = Pay2Win may be.

GW2 = pay to look good.

that’s all.