Guild Wars 2

There is zero need for a DPS meter in a game like GW2, where metas are figured out in usually less then a week. The tool would only expedite that process which in the case of GW2 is not necessary. You want to know what the best gear/traits/rotation is, wait a week go on to YouTube and you’ll find out. or better yet do the work yourself and play to experience it.
The notion that because one raid is introduced we now need to push through all the ridiculous add-ons is absurd, especially in light of the fact it got played for only 8 hours or so and only one section.

“Today’s logs are amazing, man. We are writing a live log, and if fights go very wrong, our RL just glance into it and within a few minutes can accurately pinpoint a problem.
You guys who saying meters are not needed, seem to care so much for mental health of ppl who cant pull their weight. But you COMPLETELY forgetting about other players, who are wiping because of them, just for being in same team/party/squad. Why these players must just stay silent and endure, because someone cant play properly? They did nothing wrond, so why they must fail because of someone else? Just answer me.”

I’m aware of live logging and it’s an amazing tool, much better than meters. Although for the guilds I played it it was rare to have to resort to looking at a live log to figure out what the problem was, I can see it being useful for players who are in lower end guilds where the raiders may not be as upfront about their mistakes or may not understand that they’re making mistakes.

As for the people not pulling their weight causing issues for raiders who are playing well: welcome to raiding. Unless you’re in a top end guild, you’ll have players bringing down the raid. You have to weed those out through logistics and leadership, not meters.

“But in the end without actual damage numbers or AT LEAST gearchecks you wont be able to see clearly who is underperforming.”

You can force people to ping their gear or you could form/join a guild where idiots aren’t tolerated. There’s no need for meters to weed those players out.

“Some of the people that downed him had minutes left on their timer, this isn’t a dps check fight, people just hit the enrage because they didn’t execute the mechanics correctly.”

It’s not a harsh numbers check, but it’s a number check nonetheless. You still need to put out great damage to kill it on time. And the groups that killed it did it with poorly optimized groups (at least IMO) and could have probably killed the boss with 2-3 minutes left with better group comps.

“There is zero need for a DPS meter in a game like GW2, where metas are figured out in usually less then a week. The tool would only expedite that process which in the case of GW2 is not necessary. You want to know what the best gear/traits/rotation is, wait a week go on to YouTube and you’ll find out. or better yet do the work yourself and play to experience it. "

That’s not the attitude the guilds striving for world first have. Those guilds need to figure out everything by themselves for themselves through practice, theorycrafting, discussion and spreadsheets. A week is more than enough time to lose the race to world first and the players at the top will not be able to afford to wait for theorycrafters to “figure out the meta”.

Zaroua.2714:

That’s not the attitude the guilds striving for world first have. Those guilds need to figure out everything by themselves for themselves through practice, theorycrafting, discussion and spreadsheets. A week is more than enough time to lose the race to world first and the players at the top will not be able to afford to wait for theorycrafters to “figure out the meta”.

So for the sake of a one time objective that a minor few works towards we should introduce an elitist shaming tool on the rest of the game’s player base, sorry but do it with the tools you have and let the rest of the player base play the game the way it was designed to be played. If you have the tools now, as restrictive as you might find them that’s what everyone one else has so it will still be a matter of the most deserving getting that title, no harm no foul.
I have played many games with this tool and it has been a direct cause of degradation of the player base and for every player that uses it correctly hundreds will abuse it, so no thank you. You have what you need to calculate what you need to know, that’s all that should be necessary. It’s kind of laughable, I have been doing this since MMO’s first came out long before we even had YouTube and somehow we managed to figure it all out on our own, guess that must mean we were better players right?

You haven’t read the thread at all, have you?

Labjax.2465:

Random.4691:

The issue is they are simply not needed and turns off a lot of people. If Anet says "yup, it’s ok, go ahead and create one for yoursleves) it becomes a mandatory feature even if it’s not needed. If they say no, then raids seem more friendly for everyone.

The unfortunate part is, there is no real middle ground, they will either be mandatory or they won’t be allowed. You could use the argument of players having the option but you and I both know that this is nothing more than an excuse and will not be the case at all.

I said it before, personally I have nothing against meters, but I can see the conflict they cause and will lean towards not having them based on this conflict.

Just let the people play the game, if they can complete a raid without it there is no need for it. If you feel that you and your group/guild/friends/whoever benefit from a meter then brainstorm a way to test all factors for yourselves and go forward with the builds and rotations you find to be the best results. You don’t need meters to do the work for you, put some effort in if its that important to you.

I don’t see anything in particular to disagree with here. I think I’ve made it clear that I am talking about IF Anet starts leaning in the direction of raids that have fine-tuned DPS checks. Right now, I have no idea. I have not tested the existing raids and they are in beta to boot.

I am talking about IFs here.

And in this IF scenario, you wouldn’t go in “for fun” and kill the raid bosses in a day. You can have fun doing it, of course, but the question is whether these raids are going to be for the casual-minded or whether they will delve into hardcore territory. Usually how raid cycles work (in games where they are more hardcore) is the raids are tougher on release, but they get nerfed after a few months.

As some one who played hardcore for years before I had my family, it was always about having fun, and myself and the people I played with were quite successful at having fun while playing/doing hardcore content. It doesn’t have to be a super serious try to have fun but don’t dare smile environment. If you have talented players to play with it is quite possible to have a lot of fun, not take the content to seriously, and advance at the content.

hellchamp.5412:

The only thing meters are good for are excluding players that others feel don’t meet there standards. You don’t heal enough, You don’t do enough dps , your rotation isn’t right. Meters to me = eletists
Gear checks I am ok with since all my 80s have multiple sets of ascended gear but I still roll with people in fractals or dungeons that use exotic it makes it rough but its a game so I don’t get upset. I don’t mind carrying a person or 2 or even helping them get gear maybe im a different kind of gamer….So I will take all the people that don’t cut it for the eletist with there meters and checks and raid with them there most likely better people any ways less attitude and chest thumping.

Not just that. I knew someone who was kicked out of a WoW raid guild for healing TOO MUCH. Which was ridiculous, she always did just fine in raids in WoW, never had any problems or complaints, but when they looked at her healing meter they said, “you are healing too much, its inefficient,” and kicked her out.

Meters can give you tools for fine tuning your build. It can also give jerks the excuse they need to legitimize them being jerks.

I guess I have to repeat it: in the end, dps and other statistics don’t matter anywhere near as much as skill, and there isn’t a meter for that. I’ve seen players in “meta” gear and builds before simply do worse in a fight that someone who wasn’t “meta” but also played much better.

And thats really the biggest reason for not having meters: it doesn’t take into account the skill of the player BEHIND a character.

No meters until classes are reasonably balanced

Meters exist in wow for instance however you’d still bring every class along for the raid besides a Shaman.(My poor poor alli shammy) Every classes brings something to the table this isn’t true for GW2 and at the very best you’d need the top healing and top support class with everyone else being the top DPS class. That’s three out of 9 classes if even at that while the other classes would get booted due to meter and other such nonsense.

I main a mez for the record

It think it’s safe to say the majority do not want to see any meters in place. Now before you say the forum users are the minority, if you can’t be bothered to log on to the forums and give suggestions or input then you can’t complain about what gets voted in or out. It’s like an election, if you can’t be bothered to vote, don’t complain about who wins.

It’s like an election except for the part where its NOT an election.

At all.

The Devs will act as they think best utterly without regard to the noise that comes parading through here.

I’ve seen meters used responsibly, and I’ve seen them made a tool to justify insanity. Either way, I don’t see them being consistent with a game that won’t show you a monster’s actual hp. Even more so in a game that tries at every turn to make all players on the same server allies and not competitors.

@hellchamp

Yeah, I don’t care about legendaries either, but being able to have gear that can change stats makes it far superior in function compared to ascended.

I’m not a serious raider myself, but I personally think meters and graphs are good for the long term health of the game. It’s a good tool for the players to have and the transparency helps the players to provide better feedback to developers as well. The benefits really do out weigh the random raid kitten drama that someone will complain about on the forums.

Many of ideas and input have been pulled from the forums, so yes it is very much like an election, you don’t show up to give your input, don’t complain about the input that is given and possibly implemented.

But ya let’s argue over and example given because that’s productive ….

Doam.8305:

No meters until classes are reasonably balanced

Meters exist in wow for instance however you’d still bring every class along for the raid besides a Shaman.(My poor poor alli shammy) Every classes brings something to the table this isn’t true for GW2 and at the very best you’d need the top healing and top support class with everyone else being the top DPS class. That’s three out of 9 classes if even at that while the other classes would get booted due to meter and other such nonsense.

I main a mez for the record

You do realize that players having access to more numbers will help provide accurate feedback to developers so they can balance better right???

Currently most feedback provided to developed is more about feeling and less about numbers. Think of this scenario… Someone plays both Druid heals then Ventari 10 times in a raid. They have their meters and graphs compiling info. At the end of each raid the player sees that the Ventari far out healed the Druid. With the statistics we can figure why that happened more easily, how to bring the Druid up to be the best heals as designed and prove accurate feedback for developers to review.

That’s just one scenario, but if you think deeper, you will see the benefits game wide. The tools are not only to maximize zomgdps, it can also help catch bugged stuff, op stuff, up stuff and will greatly improve communication with the devs.

Anet never ever listen to peoples UI complaints, it’s one big area they give us no say in. We have less UI customization than any other MMO I’m familiar with. I could get over meters if they would just get rid of the stupid circular health “bar”, squeeze the two halfs of the skill bar together, give us a healthbar/portrait/boons/condis to the left side and above the skill bar, the enemy healthbar/portrait/boons/condis above and to the right, and the profession specific skills in the center. Whenever someone raises the UI they go “oh it’s not that easy, it’d take up all this screen real estate” – Anet your current target bar takes up the best bit of screen real estate available. I’d rather have the whole bottom half of my screen covered in UI than continue to have you take up the center of the top half of the screen with my target bar. I think you do this because you want to game to feel contextual rather than have us staring at a UI, but currently I’ve got a huge bit of UI (the target bar) often covering my actual enemy such that their physical telegraphs (like raising a weapon) aren’t visible. We want to monitor EVERYTHING Anet – Our HP, Boons, Condis, and all the same for our target in the SAME PLACE.

“you will see the benefits game wide”

I don’t think anyone arguing that there are no benefits from meters. The problem is that there are a lot of problems and the problems that stem from meters should not be a part of GW2’s cooperative mindset.

The benefits are greater than the random picky elite person followed by the complaint thread on the forum taking up space.

DPS meters in GW2 are a horrible idea. Last thing this game needs is a bunch of irritating UI elements that are required by the raiding community just so we can judge each other’s performance. All it will do is make raids an ascetically unpleasing toxic mess.

We have already seen a lot of elitism and toxicity in regards to whether or not you have the proper gear or playing the proper build even without DPS meters. if you think that it won’t get at least as bad if not worse with meters added in, you’re kidding yourself. So yes there are benefits, but there are also a lot of unpleasant consequences, & a lot of people, myself included, feel the consequences outweigh the benefits by a vast Margin.

And if that serious raid team you want to join asks you to ping your gear from gw2 efficiency site approved by the devs, what do you guys and gals do?

“The benefits are greater than the random picky elite person followed by the complaint thread on the forum taking up space.”

Anet clearly doesn’t want people to be kicked out of groups for wearing an unoptimal gear set. That’s the reason we can’t inspect others. The whole game was designed from the ground up with the same mentality: cooperation over competition. Meters wouldn’t encourage cooperation in open world/dungeons/fractals, where the more casual and less skilled players will be spending most of their time. It won’t help you find groups or make friends, or won’t make others appreciate you because you survive well. In WoW that might be the case, where you can see a clear disparity on meters, but that’s due to ilvl, but that won’t happen in GW2 where there’s no treadmill.

Morfedel.4165:

We have already seen a lot of elitism and toxicity in regards to whether or not you have the proper gear or playing the proper build even without DPS meters. if you think that it won’t get at least as bad if not worse with meters added in, you’re kidding yourself. So yes there are benefits, but there are also a lot of unpleasant consequences, & a lot of people, myself included, feel the consequences outweigh the benefits by a vast Margin.

Sure, there will always be a great deal of elitism and toxicity when it comes to raids. I just don’t think the game should enable that kind of behavior by giving them tools to quantify their actions.

Swagger.1459:

And if that serious raid team you want to join asks you to ping your gear from gw2 efficiency site approved by the devs, what do you guys and gals do?

Leave the raid and join another, but then again I plan on raiding with guildies/friends and this won’t be an issue.

I think the people asking others to “ping” their gear will be the minority, this isn’t WoW.

Zaroua.2714:

“you will see the benefits game wide”

I don’t think anyone arguing that there are no benefits from meters. The problem is that there are a lot of problems and the problems that stem from meters should not be a part of GW2’s cooperative mindset.

I’d argue that the benefits are minimal at best, even ignoring the downsides.

Except for more efficiency in build and rotation (which is utterly unneccessary in 99% of the content), there’s really not much.

— And it puts the stamp of approval on a fixation with that build/rotation efficiency, which I doubt is a developer goal.

Mogget.2104:

Morfedel.4165:

We have already seen a lot of elitism and toxicity in regards to whether or not you have the proper gear or playing the proper build even without DPS meters. if you think that it won’t get at least as bad if not worse with meters added in, you’re kidding yourself. So yes there are benefits, but there are also a lot of unpleasant consequences, & a lot of people, myself included, feel the consequences outweigh the benefits by a vast Margin.

Sure, there will always be a great deal of elitism and toxicity when it comes to raids. I just don’t think the game should enable that kind of behavior by giving them tools to quantify their actions.

I agree, that post you responded to was specifically to refute the idea of DPS meters

Random.4691:

Swagger.1459:

And if that serious raid team you want to join asks you to ping your gear from gw2 efficiency site approved by the devs, what do you guys and gals do?

Leave the raid and join another, but then again I plan on raiding with guildies/friends and this won’t be an issue.

I think the people asking others to “ping” their gear will be the minority, this isn’t WoW.

Problem solved then

Zaroua.2714:

“The benefits are greater than the random picky elite person followed by the complaint thread on the forum taking up space.”

Anet clearly doesn’t want people to be kicked out of groups for wearing an unoptimal gear set. That’s the reason we can’t inspect others. The whole game was designed from the ground up with the same mentality: cooperation over competition. Meters wouldn’t encourage cooperation in open world/dungeons/fractals, where the more casual and less skilled players will be spending most of their time. It won’t help you find groups or make friends, or won’t make others appreciate you because you survive well. In WoW that might be the case, where you can see a clear disparity on meters, but that’s due to ilvl, but that won’t happen in GW2 where there’s no treadmill.

You do realize raids and high level fractals will require ascended gear?

You do realize that there is a site called gw2 efficiency that the devs have approved that allows for inspecting someone’s gear? Serious raiders and fractalers will ask for you to ping them your info before they accept you into the group right? And trust me they will use it for serious stuff.

“And if that serious raid team you want to join asks you to ping your gear from gw2 efficiency site approved by the devs, what do you guys and gals do?”

That serious raid team would be looking for a pug that’s able to fulfill a specific role for them. If you’re unable to fulfill that role because your gear isn’t appropriate for it, then you shouldn’t respond to them in the first because you’ll just be wasting each other’s time. If your gear is adequate, then there’s no problem.

If they’re asking for speed clear times, laugh at them and point out their stupidity publicly, since speed running dungeons isn’t a matter of skill, it’s a matter of practice and memorization.

Swagger.1459:

Zaroua.2714:

“The benefits are greater than the random picky elite person followed by the complaint thread on the forum taking up space.”

Anet clearly doesn’t want people to be kicked out of groups for wearing an unoptimal gear set. That’s the reason we can’t inspect others. The whole game was designed from the ground up with the same mentality: cooperation over competition. Meters wouldn’t encourage cooperation in open world/dungeons/fractals, where the more casual and less skilled players will be spending most of their time. It won’t help you find groups or make friends, or won’t make others appreciate you because you survive well. In WoW that might be the case, where you can see a clear disparity on meters, but that’s due to ilvl, but that won’t happen in GW2 where there’s no treadmill.

You do realize raids and high level fractals will require ascended gear?

You do realize that there is a site called gw2 efficiency that the devs have approved that allows for inspecting someone’s gear? Serious raiders and fractalers will ask for you to ping them your info before they accept you into the group right? And trust me they will use it for serious stuff.

What exactly does this have to do with meters ?
You can complete a raid or as many have been doing for so long, Fractals without a meter so no it’s not needed. Why your going on about gear is baffling … you know there is an entire separate thread discussing gear right ?

Random.4691:

Swagger.1459:

Zaroua.2714:

“The benefits are greater than the random picky elite person followed by the complaint thread on the forum taking up space.”

Anet clearly doesn’t want people to be kicked out of groups for wearing an unoptimal gear set. That’s the reason we can’t inspect others. The whole game was designed from the ground up with the same mentality: cooperation over competition. Meters wouldn’t encourage cooperation in open world/dungeons/fractals, where the more casual and less skilled players will be spending most of their time. It won’t help you find groups or make friends, or won’t make others appreciate you because you survive well. In WoW that might be the case, where you can see a clear disparity on meters, but that’s due to ilvl, but that won’t happen in GW2 where there’s no treadmill.

You do realize raids and high level fractals will require ascended gear?

You do realize that there is a site called gw2 efficiency that the devs have approved that allows for inspecting someone’s gear? Serious raiders and fractalers will ask for you to ping them your info before they accept you into the group right? And trust me they will use it for serious stuff.

What exactly does this have to do with meters ?
You can complete a raid or as many have been doing for so long, Fractals without a meter so no it’s not needed. Why your going on about gear is baffling … you know there is an entire separate thread discussing gear right ?

if you read what I replied to then you will understand.

Without completely reworking how buffs work in this game, DPS meters will never be useful in the manner that the people calling for them want them to be.

A buff maintaining rotation is, most of the time going to be a DPS loss. If the damage addition from it is added to the damage of someone else, everyone is going to throw them out, whether they’re needed or not in order to have that added to their bars, and, people with their own buffs will actively dodge out of buffs in order to sabotage their “competition”. If it’s not included, no one is going to take anything that’s a DPS loss, especially if it helps the other players but doesn’t give them credit, and if it’s possible to use the boss mechanics to kill off the other players/force them to slow their damage, even better, I mean, if they die to it, they deserved to anyway, it doesn’t matter if it was unnecessary that they should have to spend cooldowns doing so.

Adding meters will result in people playing the meters rather than playing the game.

Swagger.1459:

Zaroua.2714:

“The benefits are greater than the random picky elite person followed by the complaint thread on the forum taking up space.”

Anet clearly doesn’t want people to be kicked out of groups for wearing an unoptimal gear set. That’s the reason we can’t inspect others. The whole game was designed from the ground up with the same mentality: cooperation over competition. Meters wouldn’t encourage cooperation in open world/dungeons/fractals, where the more casual and less skilled players will be spending most of their time. It won’t help you find groups or make friends, or won’t make others appreciate you because you survive well. In WoW that might be the case, where you can see a clear disparity on meters, but that’s due to ilvl, but that won’t happen in GW2 where there’s no treadmill.

You do realize raids and high level fractals will require ascended gear?

You do realize that there is a site called gw2 efficiency that the devs have approved that allows for inspecting someone’s gear? Serious raiders and fractalers will ask for you to ping them your info before they accept you into the group right? And trust me they will use it for serious stuff.

Seriously, this again? Ascended gear will not be required only recommended.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/external?l=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2Fr%2FGuildwars2%2Fcomments%2F3mz8ta%2Fcrystal_reid_raids_will_be_balanced_around%2Fcvk6djq

Raids are balanced around ascended, thus it’s “recommended”…

“Earlier wings doable w/ some exotics by top players”…

It’s not mandatory to do raids for legendary gear, but if you want to do this optional stuff then you better have your ascended gear… Unless of course you will be sticking to doing earlier wings with some exotic gear while being carried by a group of top players…

Gear checks are already here and will be used by top player, groups and guilds. Meters and graphs to gather and display numbers and stats are coming next…

The gear thread is

<<<<<<<<<<<<< that way

Meters, stats, numbers, gear, roles, requirements… These are all intertwined and related topics, but thank you for your input. I would suggest reading things before commenting so we can avoid any unnecessary misunderstandings.

It has nothing to do with reading, you made a threads about meters, just because someone else brings up gear doesn’t mean you should go off topic. We have a gear thread, we don’t need 2, stop encouraging them by replying..

It’s related to the topic, but thanks for your concern.

Swagger.1459:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/external?l=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2Fr%2FGuildwars2%2Fcomments%2F3mz8ta%2Fcrystal_reid_raids_will_be_balanced_around%2Fcvk6djq

Raids are balanced around ascended, thus it’s “recommended”…

“Earlier wings doable w/ some exotics by top players”…

It’s not mandatory to do raids for legendary gear, but if you want to do this optional stuff then you better have your ascended gear… Unless of course you will be sticking to doing earlier wings with some exotic gear while being carried by a group of top players…

Gear checks are already here and will be used by top player, groups and guilds. Meters and graphs to gather and display numbers and stats are coming next…

Those meters graphs displayed numbers etc that you think are coming will only be coming from third party sources, just like the gear check you just mentioned. ArenaNet hasn’t done any of that themselves. There’s a difference between them allowing third party software and them actually inserting it themselves. It’s not going to happen. Not by ArenaNet anyway.

And yes the ascended gear is recommended not required. It is likely going to be difficult with exotic gear instead of ascended but that doesn’t mean it can’t be done. In other games when it’s required it means you can’t even get into the raid without the gear that is required. And that’s the difference.

Morfedel.4165:

Swagger.1459:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/external?l=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2Fr%2FGuildwars2%2Fcomments%2F3mz8ta%2Fcrystal_reid_raids_will_be_balanced_around%2Fcvk6djq

Any of that will be 3rd party at best, and not something directly from arena net. And yes ascended the gear is recommended but not required.
Raids are balanced around ascended, thus it’s “recommended”…

“Earlier wings doable w/ some exotics by top players”…

It’s not mandatory to do raids for legendary gear, but if you want to do this optional stuff then you better have your ascended gear… Unless of course you will be sticking to doing earlier wings with some exotic gear while being carried by a group of top players…

Gear checks are already here and will be used by top player, groups and guilds. Meters and graphs to gather and display numbers and stats are coming next…

Yup, third party API development that anet will eventually support.

Anet relies on third party to help improve qol features and to bring the community together more by getting involved.

Random.4691:

The gear thread is

<<<<<<<<<<<<< that way

Well the gear thread has become another rewards thread, so it only makes sense that the meters thread becomes the gear thread.

The rewards thread is in Hell, where it belongs.

Bringing in meters will change the game from what it is to more akin to a trinity game. Right now, people actually use skill. They dodge, strafe, spend 1 second helping a downed part member get back up. They use their utilities. Bring in meters and suddenly they won’t bother dodging out of the way of a swing or bad stuff. It might make their DPS drop and you can’t have that! They will ignore the downed ally because helping them would lower their DPS. They won’t use mechanics or utilities because again, that might lower their DPS.

So in a year or so, people will be screaming for the “healers” to be buffed more to heal them while they are rooted by their meter addiction. They will need more toughness to withstand hits while they are frozen in fear of their numbers dropping. So X & Y classes, you’re tougher. (oh look, tanks). A & B classes, you can heal better (wow.. we have real healers now!) and the rest? Well, since you don’t use Z utilities, we’re just going to ignore them, mmmkay?

Don’t think it will happen? Look at WoW. For anyone that played before… oh.. let’s say mid Wrath, you could probably rattle off every CC/Utility ability and spell your class(es) used and what they were best used for. Hybrids were actually aware that they had the ability to heal a bit, even in DPS form. People were more prone to move out of the bad stuff, to not face pull, to not scream GOGOGOOMGDIAF!!!!! Mechanics were used in dungeons/raids. From Cata on? Hahahaahhahahahahaa… good luck finding a DPS that knows what their CC abilities are and how to use them. Now it’s all about the holy meter and fastest zerg. Sadly, for years. And Blizzard just started building their game around that simplistic attitude. Don’t move, don’t help, don’t look at anything but your numbers. 90% of the community is so toxic you don’t even want to be around them. And they’re all in the middle. The “Hardcore” players don’t pug. They don’t need to. They sorta keep to themselves, but if you do happen to get one talking, they’re hysterical to chat with. The “casuals” aren’t really interested in pugging and stick to their small, personal guilds. The last thing they would want to do is ask a question in zone/trade chat and they don’t have the patience to deal with the middle group. That is where you find the “elitists”. The ones that give meters, gearscore, the WoW community a bad name. They are most likely the #1 reason anybody here -that is from WoW- wants to avoid meters like the plague. They’re not afraid of the meters. They don’t want the headache to come here. They left it behind in WoW, where it can stay.

With the way GW2 is designed, the meters are not worth the changes that could happen to the community and the game itself.

My first raiding was EverQuest. Started playing in 99, started raiding a couple years later. Was in one of the top 3 raiding guilds on my server. Raided in WoW as a variety of healers and sometimes DPS. So yes, my raiding mentality was born from not having or needing meters and addons. And I still don’t think you need them. I’ve always felt that if the mob dies and we don’t, that’s a win! Then again, I am more patient than some. I’d rather take the time to explain a fight than have to decipher meters as to why we wiped because someone was too afraid to speak up that they didn’t know for fear of being kicked.

I used to chuckle at people in WoW claiming to be big and bad raiders…. with so many addons, they barely could see the game. (What? Are you raiding the Matrix?) They made things easier, I agree. Nothing like hearing “RUN AWAY, LITTLE GIRL! RUN AWAY!” to make you start dancing the Time Warp (…it’s just a jump to the left…). As a healer, I used almost all of the panels of my meter. Usually to shut some moron up (you remember “that guy”. he always said he doesn’t have a meter, but if he ended a fight on top, would beg for someone to post it… oh here is the damage taken or heals received report! Oh? That isn’t what you wanted everyone to see? That you took every avoidable blast to the face and soaked up more heals than the main tank? My bad… which one does your ego need to feed off of again?) or to defend someone getting ripped apart by some egotistical social dunce on a power trip.

I think one of my favorite kicks, that highlights what is so wrong with a DPS meter, was when a raid leader tried using low DPS as a reason to kick me because I was on the same loot table as his buddy. I was main healer and assigned to the tank/raid leader. The next fight, my friend was calling me on the phone and almost dying laughing. I guess he was screaming at the healers and one of them piped up “We wiped because you kicked your own healer.”

There is a tremendous benefit to both players and developers by having numbers more transparent

No, there isn’t. You’re just so stubbornly blinded by your desire to validate your DPS you are willing to sacrifice the community to get it. This game is not designed that way. Go back to WoW and load up your 30 add ons when you start having meter withdrawals. GW2 will still be here when you get back.

Gryffenne.8639:

No, there isn’t. You’re just so stubbornly blinded by your desire to validate your DPS you are willing to sacrifice the community to get it. This game is not designed that way. Go back to WoW and load up your 30 add ons when you start having meter withdrawals. GW2 will still be here when you get back.

No it’s not just about dps. I would suggest that you look at all my posts in this thread first before assuming things.

I already have read your posts. Meters aren’t worth it. They are not required. They are not needed. Want a game like WoW, go back to it. Most came here because it was different. The community was different. Can’t it stay different? WoW may have been the most successful MMORPG. But their heyday is long gone. Right around the time gearscore and meters became more used (Mid Wrath) Hopefully, ANet looks at those numbers, not Recount.

Morfedel.4165:

Saying they’re going to support raids in no way means they’re going to insert DPS meters. That is one heck of an assumption

They have already had discussions about elements that are toxic to the community, in which they specifically called out the zerker meta, do you really think they’re they’re going to smack down the zerker meta and in the same breath put in DPS meter?

^this. I agree people are reading too much into that statement.

It’s still not needed.

Can raids be completed without them ?
Can fractals be completed without them ?

The truth is they are simply unnecessary, you can come up with all the excuses you like, they help players and devs (pretty sure devs have meters and logs so no they don’t need a third party add-on), we have survived 3 years without add-ons, raids all of sudden doesn’t make them a necessity.

Swagger.1459:

There is a tremendous benefit to both players and developers by having numbers more transparent

No there isn’t. There’s a specific impact from the information on one part of the game; from a designers perspective it’s likely not even a positive impact.

It’s not necessary to complete the content, it might not even be advisable for completing the content. The obsession with measuring and spreadsheet play is a dead end.

Swagger.1459:

Morfedel.4165:

Swagger.1459:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/external?l=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2Fr%2FGuildwars2%2Fcomments%2F3mz8ta%2Fcrystal_reid_raids_will_be_balanced_around%2Fcvk6djq

Any of that will be 3rd party at best, and not something directly from arena net. And yes ascended the gear is recommended but not required.
Raids are balanced around ascended, thus it’s “recommended”…

“Earlier wings doable w/ some exotics by top players”…

It’s not mandatory to do raids for legendary gear, but if you want to do this optional stuff then you better have your ascended gear… Unless of course you will be sticking to doing earlier wings with some exotic gear while being carried by a group of top players…

Gear checks are already here and will be used by top player, groups and guilds. Meters and graphs to gather and display numbers and stats are coming next…

Yup, third party API development that anet will eventually support.

Anet relies on third party to help improve qol features and to bring the community together more by getting involved.

There is a big difference between allowing third-party development and making it an essential experience. Until this thread I hadn’t even heard of Guild Wars efficiency. I asked my guild you are very active and they hadn’t heard of it either. It isn’t the landslide that you think it is by any stretch. & I highly doubt that anything you are referring to will be either.

Let me give you an example. Lucas Studios has been well known for allowing all kinds of authors to write all kinds of fiction about Star Wars. There are some things that are pretty crazy out there in many cases. But none of it is canon. By the same token any third party software that arena net allows isn’t the same thing as it being something made officially Canon for Guild Wars 2.

Don’t confuse acceptance with Reliance. They aren’t the same thing by any stretch of the imagination.

Good discussion, keep it up guys and gals

Inverse.2967:

Fox.3469:

I believe this all stems from the idea that the first fight was somehow a dps check, rather then a mechanics check. Some of the people that downed him had minutes left on their timer, this isn’t a dps check fight, people just hit the enrage because they didn’t execute the mechanics correctly.

Somehow you may be right.

By just not putting that timer in, oh how much of this drama could have been spared.

Isn’t that above all a much stronger argument against enrage “timers”, just to cut all the drama and start get playing against cool encounter mechanics ?

No, the enrage timer is needed, you didn’t understand my point. I’m saying the dps over all wasn’t the most important thing why people hit the enrage, it was the mechanics. The enrage is there to ensure people do the fight as intended. If you don’t have this enrage you allow the fight to be cheesed into oblivion, and this can’t be intended. Enrage timers serve a purpose even in GW2, but it has nothing to do with dps but with correct teamplay and execution of mechanics.

Let me give you an example, in most groups that failed because of the enrage timer, i saw nearly everyone runs to the orbs to catch them, even melee sometimes, this is a huge loss in dps BECAUSE the mechanics aren’t executed properly. This doesn’t have anything to do with the armor people are wearing, but rather with not doing damage because of the mechanic fail. And it should be like this. If you don’t have an enrage timer everyone can run to the orbs and catch them, making this fight much easier.