Guild Wars 2

Morfedel.4165:

We have already seen a lot of elitism and toxicity in regards to whether or not you have the proper gear or playing the proper build even without DPS meters. if you think that it won’t get at least as bad if not worse with meters added in, you’re kidding yourself. So yes there are benefits, but there are also a lot of unpleasant consequences, & a lot of people, myself included, feel the consequences outweigh the benefits by a vast Margin.

I want to make a quick point here: If you already see a lot of elitism and toxicity even with meters, why do you think meters would make a big difference?

Labjax.2465:

Morfedel.4165:

We have already seen a lot of elitism and toxicity in regards to whether or not you have the proper gear or playing the proper build even without DPS meters. if you think that it won’t get at least as bad if not worse with meters added in, you’re kidding yourself. So yes there are benefits, but there are also a lot of unpleasant consequences, & a lot of people, myself included, feel the consequences outweigh the benefits by a vast Margin.

I want to make a quick point here: If you already see a lot of elitism and toxicity even with meters, why do you think meters would make a big difference?

Because unlike the two other options, meters don’t show objectively what happens in the game. If people want only full ascended, sure, if they want people with certain builds, that’s fine also imo (in guild groups this is how it works anyway, you try and beat the boss as a team, and look for the optimal way together, if you want to pug, then you gotta go with what the leader wants, or start your own pug) however, dps meters, even if only in raids (wich i doubt it would be and that’s a problem by itself) do not give an accurate representation of skill at all. A certain person can do less dps but be way more skilled, because in that certain attempt of the boss, he had to dodge a whole lot while other people got lucky on positioning. Some of those people may have just straight up died if they got into a situation like the first person got into, but because of a number on a meter that first person now gets kicked. Meters do not represent skill, while armor is a pure stat increase (granted some people may be more skilled and have less armor, and thereby do better, but this is irrelevant to making a pug group, since you want at least optimal gear if you have all people you don’t know) and build is something the leader of a pug group should always have controll over. (not telling you to change, but if they demand a certain type of warrior, for example PS right now in fractals, then it’s their right to do so since they made the group and you got to meet what they want if you want to join, you can always create your own)

Imagine if a certain boss has a mechanic where you have to run out of the group or you blow up the entire group. You get this mechanic on you 6 times, while other people have it once or don’t have it at all. You execute this mechanic perfectly, yet you are kicked because you didn’t do enough dps. Meters don’t show that you were moving away from your group to not blow them up actively using movement skills rather then dpsing, meters also don’t show you missed 25 stacks of might because you had to be away from your group due to the mechanics of the fight.

And here’s the problem, if you add meters, people tunnel vision on them.

Also, an official meter is Anet putting their ‘seal of approval’ on meters as a method of measuring players.

It gives the bad attitude legitimacy.

Fox.3469:

Because unlike the two other options, meters don’t show objectively what happens in the game. If people want only full ascended, sure, if they want people with certain builds, that’s fine also imo (in guild groups this is how it works anyway, you try and beat the boss as a team, and look for the optimal way together, if you want to pug, then you gotta go with what the leader wants, or start your own pug) however, dps meters, even if only in raids (wich i doubt it would be and that’s a problem by itself) do not give an accurate representation of skill at all. A certain person can do less dps but be way more skilled, because in that certain attempt of the boss, he had to dodge a whole lot while other people got lucky on positioning. Some of those people may have just straight up died if they got into a situation like the first person got into, but because of a number on a meter that first person now gets kicked. Meters do not represent skill, while armor is a pure stat increase (granted some people may be more skilled and have less armor, and thereby do better, but this is irrelevant to making a pug group, since you want at least optimal gear if you have all people you don’t know) and build is something the leader of a pug group should always have controll over. (not telling you to change, but if they demand a certain type of warrior, for example PS right now in fractals, then it’s their right to do so since they made the group and you got to meet what they want if you want to join, you can always create your own)

So your argument is people would get kicked more often?

Labjax.2465:

So your argument is people would get kicked more often?

My argument is people would be kicked for reasons they cannot help, for random factors happening in the fight. I extended my post with an example.

Players do use meters of all sorts as an excuse to go on power trips, this is true. Meters often turn people into complete jerks, unfortunately.

Fox.3469:

Labjax.2465:

So your argument is people would get kicked more often?

My argument is people would be kicked for reasons they cannot help, for random factors happening in the fight. I extended my post with an example.

How often would this happen though, is the question, isn’t’ it?

I can buy, without proof, that it would happen some. But whether it would happen with any sort of frequency is anyone’s guess, as far as I can tell. Seems like the frequency would depend a lot on the community’s attitude in general.

“How often would this happen though”

On a daily basis, just like people are already getting kicked out of groups for a PERCEIVED lack of damage.

You all keep going on and on and on about dps meters…

There are threat meters… Healing meters… Damage parsers… There is a lot more information being processed that could be useful to individual players and groups.

Information gained could also serve to help player feedback to developers because we could have numbers and stats on our side instead of just complaining. Players can help discover bugs, show if something is indeed underpowered or overpowered… There is a ton of beneficial information to be had if numbers were more accessible and transparent.

Some of you are just stuck on some isolated scenario where that 1 out of a 1000 run has someone behaving badly and doesn’t play to your liking… It’s going to happen regardless so you move on to another group or start your own right?

The API development thread is full of info gathering and qol stuff but nobody is complaining that someone can monitor the trading post and log in to start flipping stuff for tons of profit. There are a bunch of Apps that provide advantages, time saving tools, monitoring tools… And more are coming so start thinking out of the box…

Heck, the economy is getting flipped upside down because of legendary gear and some of you are so worried about some random person or serious raiding group using personal stat meters and info graphs… Ascended gear costs are probably going to go through the roof, all while the devs are designing content around ascended gear and strongly “recommending” that we pour out thousands more gold because we will be far better off at tackling endgame that we have been dying for… Sorry but if players are being told that endgame content is designed around gear that will cost an arm and a leg to craft, and that builds and roles like healing and “tanking” are important now, then the very least we could get is something to keep track and monitor the performance of our very expensive and time consuming investments, builds that we put thousands of hours into tweaking and to monitor all the back end numbers and stats.

Labjax.2465:

Fox.3469:

Labjax.2465:

So your argument is people would get kicked more often?

My argument is people would be kicked for reasons they cannot help, for random factors happening in the fight. I extended my post with an example.

How often would this happen though, is the question, isn’t’ it?

I can buy, without proof, that it would happen some. But whether it would happen with any sort of frequency is anyone’s guess, as far as I can tell. Seems like the frequency would depend a lot on the community’s attitude in general.

Not at all, meters highly encourage this behaviour, i’m no stranger to the feeling myself, if i topped dps meters in wow and we didn’t down a boss, that made me just a little irritated, even if i was playing with close friends or people i knew who were skilled. The feeling that you top the meters is great, but it comes with a feeling that others maybe just don’t put as much effort into it as you do. It ranks party members in a way that is irrelevant to the actual gameplay. Pve should not in any way rank party members. Because once you rank people the ones on the lower part of the ranking will always be considdered “dragging the team down”, even if it’s in the back of people’s mind. This is plainly counterproductive to team spirit.

Fox.3469:

Not at all, meters highly encourage this behaviour, i’m no stranger to the feeling myself, if i topped dps meters in wow and we didn’t down a boss, that made me just a little irritated, even if i was playing with close friends or people i knew who were skilled. The feeling that you top the meters is great, but it comes with a feeling that others maybe just don’t put as much effort into it as you do. It ranks party members in a way that is irrelevant to the actual gameplay. Pve should not in any way rank party members. Because once you rank people the ones on the lower part of the ranking will always be considdered “dragging the team down”, even if it’s in the back of people’s mind. This is plainly counterproductive to team spirit.

True, but you can also get team spirit dragged down from flying blind and feeling mutinous when you begin to wonder if your teammate over there is not pulling his weight and that’s why you’re failing. You might even get a little Dunning-Kruger going on and think your contributions are amazing, when objectively, everybody else is doing much more.

I’m still not seeing how these attitudes are tied inexorably to meters. The meters cement, I guess, who has a reason to act a little superior, but

“How often would this happen though”

On a daily basis, just like people are already getting kicked out of groups for a PERCEIVED lack of damage.

If people can get kicked for a perceived lack of damage, then again I ask:

Where does this great difference come from?

What I am hearing over and over is “meters will be bad, similar to [example of people being elitists without meters even existing].”

That shows that people have it in them to be elitist, regardless of the presence of meters.

Here is an argument from me: Most elitist attitudes in MMOs stem from a few, similar psychological issues: Namely, fear of failure, fear of wasted time, and fear of loss of control. Even in games with meters, I can’t think of one time when people made a thing about DPS in open world content. Why? Because the content wasn’t hard and people largely zerged it until it was dead.

There was maybe a 1% chance of failure during any given world boss fight, so there was no motivation to get worked up about how well each person is contributing.

Go into a dungeon instead, where each player’s contributions are magnified and one kittenup can wipe the whole group, and suddenly competence is all-important. Depending on the game, the dungeon, and the group, you can spend 20 minutes doing a dungeon or you can spend 4 hours. Time management can disappear due to the ability to respawn and try again when you fail to kill a boss. Controlling your gameplay/environment becomes difficult, since so much hinges on the actions of a handful of people. Failing can easily be met with harsh consequences of having to start over, even if it’s only one person’s failure.

Compare that with zerg open world content, where the incompetence of one or two, or even twenty players can be mitigated by sheer numbers.

In short: Content that puts a lot of pressure on a small number of players is the single largest contributor to elitist attitudes. It breeds discontent with your teammates and instead of that discontent being mitigated by friendship and camaraderie, the fickle nature of MMO alliances means that many of the people you team with are barely acquaintances.

To forgive a friend for incompetence is easy. Forgiving a stranger for it is a lot harder.

I always found a DPS meter was an excellent teaching tool to help understand what was the best method of fighting in any situation, I know some people hate seeing proof that other people are out performing them but I personally find it useful.

Wouldn’t mind it being added.

Zaroua.2714:

“How often would this happen though”

On a daily basis, just like people are already getting kicked out of groups for a PERCEIVED lack of damage.

But htink of those who would no longer get kicked by that perception. DPS meters help to show idiots where the real damage comes from too. Everyone being more informed isn’t a bad thing.

Data is very important when raiding at a serious level, back in the day I was in a top 20 world WoW guild and we’d use whatever tools provided us with insight into how each member was performing, something like http://www.worldoflogs.com/ was a great resource. A lot of my fun came from pushing my class to its limit, something I couldn’t have done if all that data was hidden. Plus I think it makes people improve whether they want to or not, and increasing the overall skill of the community isn’t a bad thing. The only people who would be against this type of data being shown are people not willing to learn how to play their class correctly, if you’re massively behind someone with the same gear, class and build you’re doing something wrong and should want to do better.

But this is serious raiding I’m talking about, most casual guilds or PUGs aren’t going to scrutinise you to such a degree so I really don’t see the harm. Maybe they could even an option to allow your data to be shown, like how Dota allows you to hide your profile. This way you can hide in the shadows if you want to, but if you’re interested in improving you can see how you stack up against others.

DPS Meter = No one will ever invite a Necro.

i think a dmg metter would be usefull cuz lets say im in a raid group and everything goes perfect but the dmg and we wouldnt know this until the very end, dmg metter will lets us know if we are doing good dmg and adding the right preasure

I think some guys forget that it is a PERSONAL meter.

Neox.3497:

I think some guys forget that it is a PERSONAL meter.

Not sure what you’re trying to say here.

Meters will show everyone in the groups/raids numbers, not just your own.
Or
If your saying its a personal choice, this is part of the argument, it won’t be a choice, it will be “Do you have recount (or whatever it would be called) installed ? If no then you will need to leave the raid and try again once you have this addon”. This is the problem, once it’s in, it’s pretty much a requirement.

I think this is the biggest issue, many don’t want to be forced to use an addon, there is plenty of games out there you can play if you’re an addon freak, it’s not a necessity in GW2.

“Where does this great difference come from?”

The difference between getting kicked out of a group because of perceived lack of DPS and an actual lack of DPS is ignorance. If you get kicked out of a group for being a ranger or a necro, you can tell yourself that the people who kicked you out are completely ignorant and block them and go on your way, knowing you won’t interact with them again.

However, if you get kicked out because of low DPS on the meter, it could be based on a great number of factors that others in this thread have pointed out. But that’s not the important part. The important part is that frustrated players will look at the meter after a wipe, look at the lowest person and blame them for the wipe, regardless of the fact that this person could’ve been playing the best out of the group for that attempt. Lowest person gets kicked out for that reason and rage ensues.

And that’s the crux of the problem: getting kicked out because of ignorant idiots is one thing that’s annoying and frustrating, but getting kicked out for having the lowest damage when “playing well” doesn’t have much to do with doing the most damage is beyond enraging. And that feeling is one that doesn’t need to be introduced to GW2.

“DPS Meter = No one will ever invite a Necro.”

And this is exactly the kind of attitude I’m referring to when I say people are getting kicked out because of a perceived lack of DPS. LFM FRACTAL 50 HEAVIES ONLY SO THE WARRIORS CAN DO THEIR PITIFUL 2K DPS WITH THEIR RIFFLES BECAUSE THEY CAN’T MELEE WITHOUT ICEBOW STUN CHAINS AND WITHOUT AEGIS BEING ROTATED ON THEM//NO NECROS NO RANGERS.

Random.4691:

Neox.3497:

I think some guys forget that it is a PERSONAL meter.

Not sure what you’re trying to say here.

Meters will show everyone in the groups/raids numbers, not just your own.
Or
If your saying its a personal choice, this is part of the argument, it won’t be a choice, it will be “Do you have recount (or whatever it would be called) installed ? If no then you will need to leave the raid and try again once you have this addon”. This is the problem, once it’s in, it’s pretty much a requirement.

I think this is the biggest issue, many don’t want to be forced to use an addon, there is plenty of games out there you can play if you’re an addon freak, it’s not a necessity in GW2.

I was advocating for personal meters and such that keep track of your individual performance numbers and combat log stuff. I wasn’t asking for a real time group wide monitoring add-on.

There is alot of useful data that could be used and formatted in such a way that helps the individual player.

Except, beating the drum here, it really doesn’t.

It’s not that meaningful information, trying to squeeze an extra .15% dps out of your character is a kind of mental masturbation. Fun, but not really that productive at the end of the day.

It’s something people want, and people conflate that with it being useful not just to them but to the population as a whole.

Zaroua.2714:

“Where does this great difference come from?”

The difference between getting kicked out of a group because of perceived lack of DPS and an actual lack of DPS is ignorance. If you get kicked out of a group for being a ranger or a necro, you can tell yourself that the people who kicked you out are completely ignorant and block them and go on your way, knowing you won’t interact with them again.

However, if you get kicked out because of low DPS on the meter, it could be based on a great number of factors that others in this thread have pointed out. But that’s not the important part. The important part is that frustrated players will look at the meter after a wipe, look at the lowest person and blame them for the wipe, regardless of the fact that this person could’ve been playing the best out of the group for that attempt. Lowest person gets kicked out for that reason and rage ensues.

And that’s the crux of the problem: getting kicked out because of ignorant idiots is one thing that’s annoying and frustrating, but getting kicked out for having the lowest damage when “playing well” doesn’t have much to do with doing the most damage is beyond enraging. And that feeling is one that doesn’t need to be introduced to GW2.

This seems like kind of a weak argument. It sounds like you are saying that meters are worse than not having them because being kicked for having low damage while playing support is more enraging than being kicked because you play a specific class that people don’t think is good enough.

I mean, you’re really getting into subjective emotional reaction territory and while peoples’ emotional reactions are definitely valid, you can’t speak for everyone when it comes to how frustrating different kinds of group rejection are. You can only speak for yourself and, I guess, your friends if you ask them how they feel about it.

@Labjax

I’ve always thought the whole thing was somewhere in the Fundamental Attribution Error/Self Serving Bias neighborhood.

The reason I’m more likely to put it in the “blamey” section of Cognition is because, in my experiences, people focus the conversation on low meter output when they’re Losing and not when they’re Winning.

Technically, just because you’ve won doesn’t mean you don’t have room for self improvement. You don’t have Schrodinger’s Skillset, being simultaneously both N00b and Pro until you beat the boss. You’re on a certain point on the skillcurve regardless of winning and losing, so you should be pushing yourself all the time.

I don’t bring that up to imply people taking a self improvement stance are being disingenuous. Meters are totally valid tools for that, if not underwhelming.

The Space Information it can’t record hopefully ends up being very important in the Raids of an Action-RPG, and generally speaking improvement via competition operates vs. superstars – not vs. your teammates. Comparing to a recorded high performer across the entire server is a much more stable clear long-term goal, than an indicate your personal growth based on some ever-shifting random sample size of 9.

I do bring that up to conclude:
I think as ‘Self-Improvement Software’ a Meter could really use some improvement, but it’s absolutely flawless ‘Finger-Pointing Software’ straight out of the box.

They’ve proven they cna do this with the new PvP post-game damage totals. No reason to not add this for PvE.

Anyone who doesn’t want this is probably a kitten player who wishes not to be exposed.

It’s simple: remove terrible invention called ‘Enrage timer’ and make fights that aren’t dps race. It will effectively remove zerker meta and make every other armor in game viable.
Instead of enrage timer, there could be something like fatigue that would reduce your overal effectiveness as fight progressed (slightly more damage taken, slightly less damage done, less healing…). That way if someone would be having valkyrie instead of berserker, it would still make him viable because he could take more damage later on. Damage wouldn’t be priority and lack of damage could be compensated with survival stats.

Whole dps meter drama is because there is enrage timer and everyone wants to be efficient with damage because of it, which ultimately leads to zerker meta.

Gav.1425:

They’ve proven they cna do this with the new PvP post-game damage totals. No reason to not add this for PvE.

Anyone who doesn’t want this is probably a kitten player who wishes not to be exposed.

Anyone who does want this is probably kitten at the game and needs it to figure out a rotation, and enlarge that minuscule “peen” their sporting.

Gav.1425:

They’ve proven they cna do this with the new PvP post-game damage totals. No reason to not add this for PvE.

Anyone who doesn’t want this is probably a kitten player who wishes not to be exposed.

Being combative and insulting about it really only reinforces why people don’t want them. THey’ve known folks with this attitude, and know what those folks do with meters.

Edit: There’s a reason anyways, People are jerks

Obviously meters can be useful, but taking them as required and the ultimate measurement tool is wrong.

For which group will it be helpful or qintessntial? Speed runners, guilds who are actively aiming for xxx first achievements, people who ENJOY min/maxing. Or when there’s no progress after wipe number y.
Who doesn’t “need” it: Players who can still clear a dungeon smoothly w/o any deaths and are at the end nontheless happy with the result. Players who don’t seek actively how to improve their gameplay.

And now the important part: No group is less worth than the others, no matter what the meters state. The reason is simple because it all depends on one’s mindset and playstyle. Obviously there will still be name claling by some uneducatable kitten-controlled individuals and vice versa. But if you are not explicitely in a group for speed runs or similar, don’t assume the meter is the one-in-all solution nor your right to “evaluate” others.

Labjax.2465:

To forgive a friend for incompetence is easy. Forgiving a stranger for it is a lot harder.

So true. I find my blood pressure takes much less of a beating if I approach pug-dungeon runs from the standpoint “Everyone here is trying as best they are able”

I have my dunce-hat-moments and technical difficulties too. Performance is the sum of many factors, but as long as the intent to succeed is there, I can work with the rest.

My standards when building raid groups may be a little higher because the number of people whose time you can waste is higher, and within that arena I consider getting your gear in order a component of intent to succeed.

Turns out there is already a legal DPS meter for GW2 that shows your personal DPS.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/2xxdfo/gw2_dmg_meter/

So this whole thread is really for naught. It’d be nice to get a more involved version that can show us everyones dps and healing and other stats, but at least for dps the tool already exists, and will almost certainly be used.

Gav.1425:

They’ve proven they cna do this with the new PvP post-game damage totals. No reason to not add this for PvE.

Anyone who doesn’t want this is probably a kitten player who wishes not to be exposed.

And this post of yours completely proves the point we are trying to make. Thank you for being the perfect example.

DPS meters for personal growth is something I would find completely acceptable. DPS meters for a group working together to improve themselves is acceptable.

The problem is that sooner or later they would also get used to judge people. To marginalize them. To isolate them and in general to cause bad feelings. That is the problem that many of us have because once that starts, that will start having a negative impact on the entire community. We’ve already seen the bad feelings caused by requiring gear checks. Heck I know one guy that was kicked out of a speed run group because the group estimated without even having tools that he might have been less than efficient and cost them an entire 10 seconds on their speed run. That’s right he got kicked out for an estimated 10 seconds.

Perhaps if they had said instead they were having tryouts for a long term speedrun group and they were going to be working at finding the people who are the fastest in the community, then that attitude might have been acceptable. But it was a pug speedrun group who kicked someone out for a perceived not even proven 10 second slower run.

That’s kind of attitude may be great for the group but it’s toxic for the community and that’s the problem

Some of you take isolated instances and blow them way out of proportion.

If a player doesn’t like a group then there are options to join another group or start your own. If someone gets kicked from a group for whatever reason by the team leader, then that’s their prerogative anyway. Much like any of you can start a group and kick whoever you don’t like or want either.

The content coming is not about standing at a bosses foot with 50 players and auto attacking while you eat dinner or watch a movie. This end game content is designed around expensive ascended gear, roles and coordinated team efforts, it’s not spam and collect anymore. Serious players who are investing time and effort to beating these challenges are going to be naturally picky anyway, so no, they will not want to carry people and increase the chances of failure for themselves and the rest of their team who are likeminded.

Having personal tools like meters and such will have a ton of benefits game wide, and far outweigh the random “spoil sport” that will be complained about on the forum. Better access to data and transparency with numbers are important especially when we are being told that stats, numbers and coordination really matter now.

Nephar.3746:

Meters are not bad for themself, but for the attitude they bring to the game. It is a tool that is not used like it should be used 90% of times from 90% of ppl.. Everyone that played WoW (expecially good players) understand what i mean.

The problem with this logic is like gun laws. People argue that no one should have guns to keep criminals from having guns. Like criminals aren’t going to kill you with a knife or even a rock if they can’t get their hands on a gun. This is of course ignoring the obvious fact that gun laws aren’t going to stop criminals from getting a gun anyway.

Back to the in game point though, People are going to scrutinize and filter group members with or without meters. The only difference is that it is extremely more accurate and efficient with meters than without. You can save your group from hours of wiping just by having meters + good logs. I played WoW and we were very successful…so I consider myself a decent player. I was always in the top 5 on dps on my various characters when not relegated to some type of hybrid role in WoW. I don’t see a problem with meters at all. You are always going to have some idiots who misuse tools. They are just that…idiots…people will quickly recognize them as such and begin avoiding grouping with them. The benefits from the tools far outweigh the idiots. In depth analysis of strengths, weaknesses, failures allows players to improve and for groups to succeed and grow. Being able to see exactly what boss effects/attacks are killing you (amid the blur of particle effects) is a valuable tool. Being able to see uptime on boons and conditions is equally valuable. Being able to see what players are actually maintaining said boons and conditions and in what proportions allows the raid leader to balance group contribution and allows individual players to adjust their builds/skills to improve. Yes, dps is also a metric provided by meters and it is still very important…as clearing a raid encounter does still mean actually killing the boss. Just because people are so afraid of getting exposed for unacceptable dps performance does not make that an invalid metric to watch…regarding ensuring success. Any group that is worth playing with, should already know that all professions do not output equal dps. Dps should be measured by profession and role…not by raw output. No reasonable raid leader is going to expect a chronomancer to output elementalist or engineer level dps. What they should be expecting from the chronomancer would be alacrity, quickness, and slow uptime…with medium level dps…with boon stripping as applicable. I just chose the chronomancer as an example, but similar things would apply to different professions.

Meters are a valid tool for raids and there is no inherent negative to them. Its just business as usual to filter out bad elements…idiots who are going to be idiots with or without meters. Raids are what ANET has advertised as challenging group content. That means you need to put your best effort into being able to complete them. That means minimal mistakes and the ability to learn from and correct mistakes. Meters + logs are, by definition, a tool set that provides the information to do this. I agree with Azure, although less abrasively, that meters and logs should be available for this content type. How can you really improve if you don’t have all of the information on the problem? I agree with Azure that it is impractical and even unfair for a raid leader to be expected to eyeball everyone in the raid, during the entire encounter….just to see what they are doing wrong. It is extremely more practical to have tools to just review things after the encounter.

Btw…this was not all a replay to you Nephar…I just piggy backed off your post to avoid multiple posts.

ODB: Game design isn’t like civil rights law.

Inverse.2967:

Fox.3469:

I believe this all stems from the idea that the first fight was somehow a dps check, rather then a mechanics check. Some of the people that downed him had minutes left on their timer, this isn’t a dps check fight, people just hit the enrage because they didn’t execute the mechanics correctly.

Somehow you may be right.

By just not putting that timer in, oh how much of this drama could have been spared.

Isn’t that above all a much stronger argument against enrage “timers”, just to cut all the drama and start get playing against cool encounter mechanics ?

Actually, its an even stronger argument for meters and logs. I understand if you have some vested bias against meters/logs, but you need to at least present a valid argument. If there were meters and logs, then it would clearly show if the dps was where it needed to be…and if the enrage timer was reached anyway…that would clearly show that it was a mechanics issue instead of a dps issue. The meters would show the performance levels, the logs would show the downs, damage sources, etc. All that would be left is mechanics. Depending on the mechanics, the logs may even be able to show that too.

Windsagio.1340:

ODB: Game design isn’t like civil rights law.

very insightful reply, to a minor analogy instead of the major content of the post, but yes…the analogy was accurate. A restriction on some specific item or tool is not going to prevent the underlying behaviors and attitudes…which are already commonly known to be present anyway. There’s the analogy spelled out.

ODB.6891:

Windsagio.1340:

ODB: Game design isn’t like civil rights law.

very insightful reply, to a minor analogy instead of the major content of the post, but yes…the analogy was accurate. A restriction on some specific item or tool is not going to prevent the underlying behaviors and attitudes…which are already commonly known to be present anyway. There’s the analogy spelled out.

I had a longer post, but kind of got bored halfway and cut it.

The point is this: “A designer has to be very cautious with the tools they give players”.

The gun analogy is terrible on all kinds of level (earlier they were going for the same point using terrorism, which was equally dumb).

~~~

To the point you’re trying to make, you’re outright wrong. A tool (in this case a gameplay meter) sends a very specific message to the players on how the game should be measured. It puts emphasis on the things you meter.

Yes people will be jerks about groups anyways, but adding a meter says “You should be judging people based on these criteria.” Unless they want players playing that way (which would be madness) it’s just harmful to the game.

Windsagio.1340:

I had a longer post, but kind of got bored halfway and cut it.

The point is this: “A designer has to be very cautious with the tools they give players”.

The gun analogy is terrible on all kinds of level (earlier they were going for the same point using terrorism, which was equally dumb).

~~~

To the point you’re trying to make, you’re outright wrong. A tool (in this case a gameplay meter) sends a very specific message to the players on how the game should be measured. It puts emphasis on the things you meter.

Yes people will be jerks about groups anyways, but adding a meter says “You should be judging people based on these criteria.” Unless they want players playing that way (which would be madness) it’s just harmful to the game.

They never endorsed key farming, but they did allow it for a very long time. All they would need to do is open up the UI/add-on capabilities a bit more, such that making a group meter is both possible and within the ToS. The community would do the rest.

They don’t need to directly endorse meters at all.

And yeah, I’m splitting hairs a bit, but allowing (community does most of the work) and endorsing (Anet does most of the work) are different in terms of how people view them. If Anet never comes out and says, “We want there to be group meters,” but allows them to exist, people can say that Anet is bad for letting them exist, but they can’t say Anet is endorsing them.

There would be anger, but less of a justification for it.

Altho, at this stage of the game… with how long the game has not had group meters… it’s unlikely that it’ll happen unless Anet drastically changes their model, or they come up with some alternative to group meters that acts in a similar fashion. Too many people are emotionally invested in not having their damage on display and would probably quit over it.

Labjax.2465:

Windsagio.1340:

I had a longer post, but kind of got bored halfway and cut it.

The point is this: “A designer has to be very cautious with the tools they give players”.

The gun analogy is terrible on all kinds of level (earlier they were going for the same point using terrorism, which was equally dumb).

~~~

To the point you’re trying to make, you’re outright wrong. A tool (in this case a gameplay meter) sends a very specific message to the players on how the game should be measured. It puts emphasis on the things you meter.

Yes people will be jerks about groups anyways, but adding a meter says “You should be judging people based on these criteria.” Unless they want players playing that way (which would be madness) it’s just harmful to the game.

They never endorsed key farming, but they did allow it for a very long time. All they would need to do is open up the UI/add-on capabilities a bit more, such that making a group meter is both possible and within the ToS. The community would do the rest.

They don’t need to directly endorse meters at all.

And yeah, I’m splitting hairs a bit, but allowing (community does most of the work) and endorsing (Anet does most of the work) are different in terms of how people view them. If Anet never comes out and says, “We want there to be group meters,” but allows them to exist, people can say that Anet is bad for letting them exist, but they can’t say Anet is endorsing them.

There would be anger, but less of a justification for it.

Altho, at this stage of the game… with how long the game has not had group meters… it’s unlikely that it’ll happen unless Anet drastically changes their model, or they come up with some alternative to group meters that acts in a similar fashion. Too many people are emotionally invested in not having their damage on display and would probably quit over it.

Allowing the community is different, I just think they don’t think meters are right for their game at all.

You’re absolutely right that ‘allowing’ is different than ‘including one themselves’, but it still has an impact – and I have this sense that they at least used to be pretty regularly shocked about now spreadsheet-optimization oriented the players could be (I’d hope this no longer surprises them though).

Hello !

Im a new player to this game and I’m liking it very much thus far. I have been playing wow for 10 years and we just took a break since theres not much happening atm, although my experience as previously stated is limited I’d like to share my view on dps meters / healing meters and so on.

In wow its pretty much a fact that everyone who plays at a raidlevel use a dps meter, there are several reasons for this of course, ( among these, some might lead to toxic behaviour ) but it is also used for good and I would like to point out some obvious facts:

- Measuring how optimally you are performing.
In general when progressing a boss you will notice that you will have quite terrible dps in the first attempts but slowly you start doing better and better, a meter will help you determine if you’re doing things correctly or if you need to switch things up in order to help your raid.

- Helps officers track whats going on in the fight / what needs to change.
Most notable is a death meter, it shows what happened to you prior to your death in order to see if some players needs to change something / avoid dmg better or if theres a mechanic that needs to be dealt with somehow.

- If 2 players share a profession they can help eachother become better players
Comparing who did what and how much percent of total damage was done by what spell can help you help others players perform better ( obviously if the other person is a toxic player this wont help. My point is that dps / healing meters arent toxic, people are).

I… yeah, not sure what making up a ‘no I’m new and I want this!!!’ persona will do for ya,

Windsagio.1340:

I… yeah, not sure what making up a ‘no I’m new and I want this!!!’ persona will do for ya,

I’ts funny how you couldnt be any more ignorant and to a degree toxic against my post. Congratulations on being a prime example of ‘dps meters arent toxic, players are’

If you misunderstood what I was saying, read it again with a more open mind and I think we’ll be able to agree on some points

Tsukuni.7189:

Hello !

Im a new player to this game and I’m liking it very much thus far. I have been playing wow for 10 years and we just took a break since theres not much happening atm, although my experience as previously stated is limited I’d like to share my view on dps meters / healing meters and so on.

In wow its pretty much a fact that everyone who plays at a raidlevel use a dps meter, there are several reasons for this of course, ( among these, some might lead to toxic behaviour ) but it is also used for good and I would like to point out some obvious facts:

- Measuring how optimally you are performing.
In general when progressing a boss you will notice that you will have quite terrible dps in the first attempts but slowly you start doing better and better, a meter will help you determine if you’re doing things correctly or if you need to switch things up in order to help your raid.

- Helps officers track whats going on in the fight / what needs to change.
Most notable is a death meter, it shows what happened to you prior to your death in order to see if some players needs to change something / avoid dmg better or if theres a mechanic that needs to be dealt with somehow.

- If 2 players share a profession they can help eachother become better players
Comparing who did what and how much percent of total damage was done by what spell can help you help others players perform better ( obviously if the other person is a toxic player this wont help. My point is that dps / healing meters arent toxic, people are).

They work in WoW because of how WoW is set up, in terms of rolls, like tank, DPS and healers. I played WoW too and did raiding. I found that in most cases, DPS meters where used to weed out people not hitting the desired damage and removing them from the party. And lets be honest here. The meters made everything really easy. Not to mention the others like raid call(the one that tells you when a boss is going to do something, I think it’s called that. Not played WoW since cat, and have no intention of going back) the amount of raids I’ve been on that where just face rolls because of these meters was hysterical.

I know what you are going to say, and you already know the answer. If you didn’t use there tools. You could not go raiding. As a Tank I was always asked to have this meter and that. Or I couldn’t come.

Add the meters and I will bet vital parts of my anatomy that people will be complaining that raids are too easy.

A DPS meter is like having your mum hold your hand and tell you, “You’re doing a good job sweetheart, keep it up”.

I’m not interested in hand holding.

BrotherBelial.3094:

Tsukuni.7189:

Hello !

Im a new player to this game and I’m liking it very much thus far. I have been playing wow for 10 years and we just took a break since theres not much happening atm, although my experience as previously stated is limited I’d like to share my view on dps meters / healing meters and so on.

In wow its pretty much a fact that everyone who plays at a raidlevel use a dps meter, there are several reasons for this of course, ( among these, some might lead to toxic behaviour ) but it is also used for good and I would like to point out some obvious facts:

- Measuring how optimally you are performing.
In general when progressing a boss you will notice that you will have quite terrible dps in the first attempts but slowly you start doing better and better, a meter will help you determine if you’re doing things correctly or if you need to switch things up in order to help your raid.

- Helps officers track whats going on in the fight / what needs to change.
Most notable is a death meter, it shows what happened to you prior to your death in order to see if some players needs to change something / avoid dmg better or if theres a mechanic that needs to be dealt with somehow.

- If 2 players share a profession they can help eachother become better players
Comparing who did what and how much percent of total damage was done by what spell can help you help others players perform better ( obviously if the other person is a toxic player this wont help. My point is that dps / healing meters arent toxic, people are).

They work in WoW because of how WoW is set up, in terms of rolls, like tank, DPS and healers. I played WoW too and did raiding. I found that in most cases, DPS meters where used to weed out people not hitting the desired damage and removing them from the party. And lets be honest here. The meters made everything really easy. Not to mention the others like raid call(the one that tells you when a boss is going to do something, I think it’s called that. Not played WoW since cat, and have no intention of going back) the amount of raids I’ve been on that where just face rolls because of these meters was hysterical.

I know what you are going to say, and you already know the answer. If you didn’t use there tools. You could not go raiding. As a Tank I was always asked to have this meter and that. Or I couldn’t come.

Add the meters and I will bet vital parts of my anatomy that people will be complaining that raids are too easy.

A DPS meter is like having your mum hold your hand and tell you, “You’re doing a good job sweetheart, keep it up”.

I’m not interested in hand holding.

Fair points. maybe not a dps meter but something that you can put up combat logs up to? so you can look up buff uptimes, causes of deaths etc. This way there’s no hand holding but genuinely good information to read up on.

In any event the reason for my post wasnt ‘this is why you need dps meters’ only posted it to highlight that it can be used for good since alot of people seem to feel disgusted by the idea.

A game like gw2 might not need a dps meter for all I know, raiding isnt even out yet.

DPS meters are ultimately a divisive tool; a way for people to make snap judgments on strong vs weak players. (Not judging as I did this myself when I played WoW.) It also serves to extend the skill gap between good and bad players; good players will gain more of an advantage from things like DPS meters than a bad player will.

Most of the people (I’d wager close to 100%) in favor of a DPS meter on this thread are the ones that will do well on it so your viewpoints on the subject are naturally biased. (I.e, do you know how it feels to be on the lower part of the DPS meter?) I am personally torn on the subject because I am in favor of using a DPS meter but also know the harm it can do based on my experiences in other games. You can’t really separate the good from the evil as some have suggested.

Most of the arguments in favor of a DPS meter are moot anyways since these meters already exist for anyone truly interested in improving their gameplay. I’d wager that a good portion of the people in favor of an Anet supported DPS meter, wether they admit it or not, want one partly to wag their kittens with. (Again not judging, because I’ve been there and done that and regret doing so now that I’m older.)

Tsukuni.7189:

Windsagio.1340:

I… yeah, not sure what making up a ‘no I’m new and I want this!!!’ persona will do for ya,

I’ts funny how you couldnt be any more ignorant and to a degree toxic against my post. Congratulations on being a prime example of ‘dps meters arent toxic, players are’

If you misunderstood what I was saying, read it again with a more open mind and I think we’ll be able to agree on some points

I’ll play;

In all honesty , your bizarre and incongruous use of the word ‘toxic’ gives the game away. It’s very much not a normal usage beyond the reactionary “NO YOU GUYS ARE THE REAL TOXIC ONES!” meme that likes to go out.

So yeah, not terribly effective.

In the end it’s a classic catch-22. The people who most want meters (excepting Jerus), are the people who least should be allowed access to them.

It’s ok peeps, don’t fear the meters…