Guild Wars 2

Ohoni.6057:

Which was itself an argument of semantics, and didn’t really advance the dialog in any useful way other than to attack me as a person, and now here we are.

You are being defensive now. All I said were you were wrong, which was about your statement. No thing personal. I attacked your arguments which fall apart like leaves. If you make less fallacy you’ll understand.

Fair enough. 60% of the world’s population doesn’t even have Internet access, of of those that do, only a very tiny fraction own a copy of GW2, so I think it’s perfectly fair to say that the majority of the Earth’s population would have difficulty participating in GW2 raids. I didn’t think that needed hard data, but you constantly surprise me.

See? Another bad example. We were talking about the Guild Wars 2 World Population. Not the Earth population. Oh goodness gracious, please make a sensible statement for once.

Another lie. I never said “everyone has full ascended”. I said “everyone can get full ascended if they play the game”.

It’s the same thing, everyone plays the game. When you say “play the game,” do you mean “Play like Bacon does,” or do you accept the idea that there are perhaps people that are genuinely playing the game, just as often and robustly as you, but whom perform different activities than you do?

“has” vs “can” hm can you see the difference? Or “has” you the difference? Now to the point: I merely propose a method of making such process possible. It’s their choice not to use the methods. There are many other ways to get ascended you know.

We have shown that ascended has been planned since the release and came out 2 months after the game launched.

You have not proven that they were in development before launch, just that they released the easier to implement within two months of launch. And even if they were in development before launch, they were not in the game at launch, and they conflict with the statements developers made about the game prior to launch, so if they were planning to include them before launch, then those developers would have been falsely advertising the product they were selling. I do not believe that they would do such a thing.

[You have not proven that they were in development before launch ] Yes by the software development process cycle, it was proven that they clearly planned this at launch → Your mistake number 1.
[they conflict with the statements developers made about the game prior to launch,] This doesn’t contradict any statements the developers made → Your mistake number 2.
[so if …] the rest of the points are moot since your antecedent is false. They did not have false advertising.

Why do you insist on personally attacks on my game playing?

Wait? what? I merely offer to help you out. Please I’m very nice. If you don’t understand the process. I can show you.

And I was talking about the actual cost of the items, which is 400-600g. However much you wish to dismiss portions of the cost, the actual value remains. If you insist on only counting materials that you don’t have on hand, then the price of anything is meaningless and far too random to calculate.

Yeah if the stuffs you collect are worth 400-600g yeah but once they are ascended they are actually account bound, in fact it would be worth 0g by then. So the cost of making the stuffs are not 400-600g. Don’t be confused of the worth vs the cost.

So you agree it is possible to make 10g per hour. Now show me the statistical data that it " it’s not likely to happen."

Ok, fair enough. According to GW2 Efficiency, the mean player with up to 500h under their belt has a total account worth (including account-bound items) of around 960g. That would amount to 1.92g per hour in game. The mean player with 2000 hours in the game, has 7100g in value to his account, which would balance out to around 3.5g per hour. Even if we only consider the top 10% of players in the 2000 hour category, they have a total wealth of around 13,000g. or 6.5g per hour played.

Ah ha another misrepresentation of information. Yeah I said you can make 10g per hour if you so desire. I never actually said you would constantly make 10g per hour for every hour you play constantly continuously without stopping. You go afk sometimes. You roleplay sometimes, you go watch movies sometimes. See? This behavior on the forum. You deliberately take data, sources out of context so you can advance your own agenda. I have an advise for you: “Write in honesty. Don’t misrepresent information” Maybe that’s something too hard to do?

In fact your data proved my point. Most players layer with up to 500h under their belt has a total account worth (including account-bound items) of around 960g. Which means they have earned more than enough for a full ascended set. See?

And even then the data is not accurate but we can play the gw2efficiency game if you’d like to continue on that since you brought it up first.

So I think that’s solid reason to believe that 10g per hour is not typical, unless you have other data proving the opposite.

Except your data doesn’t show break time or afk time. Your data doesn’t show how much of those play time those player set aside to make money. What you data show is that the mean player easily has more than enough for 3 ascended sets.

Ohoni.6057:

How is that relevant? What’s the current problem with gold? Multiple activities with different gold incomes -> players choose the path of least resistance lowering the value of other types of content. Also, gold = more grind and leads to a less rewarding game.

If once again you add loads (one for each playstyle no less) methods of acquiring rewards then you cause the exact same problems, problems that the devs are trying to fix.

Being able to play the activities you enjoy is one of the best things about this game, not a “problem.” It becomes a problem if you are shoehorned into specific activities that you do not enjoy.

Nobody is preventing you from playing the activities you enjoy that was never a part of the discussion was it? And no being forced to play specific activities to get specific rewards is never a problem, in fact the opposite is a major problem.

Is there a problem by having everything hidden behind gold? There are many problems, it devalues the content and it causes an excessive grind to name a few problems with it. Adding a lot of ways of getting the rewards has the exact same problems. Remember how your solution for alternatives always has the option to replace a bit of challenge with extra grind, same thing as with gold.

You want to replace gold with a new currency and all that will change is how much of it you will be able to get from each activity. So we go in a full circle, game is unrewarding and grindy -> add more content specific items -> add more ways to earn said rewards -> back to being unrewarding and grindy. Circles circles

You are being defensive now. All I said were you were wrong, which was about your statement.

All you said was that I was wrong, and I’m being defensive for pointing out that I was not and that you were merely misinterpreting the statements. Oooooo-kay. . .

See? Another bad example. We were talking about the Guild Wars 2 World Population. Not the Earth population. Oh goodness gracious, please make a sensible statement for once.

You aren’t allowed to use the royal “we.” Perhaps you were talking about the game world’s population, but I was not. If we were to talk about the game’s population, there really isn’t much data to go on as to how many of them would be willing and able to stomach a WoW-style raid, but based on player trends, my personal assumption is that it would be a very small portion of the players. If long raids were something GW2 players actually wanted, then Fractals would have been much more popular than they actually are.

[You have not proven that they were in development before launch ] Yes by the software development process cycle, it was proven that they clearly planned this at launch ? Your mistake number 1.

You made a number of random assumptions. That does not “prove” anything.

[they conflict with the statements developers made about the game prior to launch,] This doesn’t contradict any statements the developers made ? Your mistake number 2.

Ascended gear does contradict the statements they made pre-launch, as building Ascended armor does require long term gear grind to earn stats, which is exactly what they claimed GW2 players would never have to do. Why do you continue to argue this point?

Wait? what? I merely offer to help you out. Please I’m very nice. If you don’t understand the process. I can show you.

Do not insult us both with passive-aggression. At the very least own your animosity. You have repeatedly implied that I am a less capable or engaged player than you are, with nothing to back that point beyond that we disagree on what is fun in the game. I play perfectly well, and there’s nothing that I would need your help to learn.

Yeah if the stuffs you collect are worth 400-600g yeah but once they are ascended they are actually account bound, in fact it would be worth 0g by then. So the cost of making the stuffs are not 400-600g. Don’t be confused of the worth vs the cost.

?

Ah ha another misrepresentation of information. Yeah I said you can make 10g per hour if you so desire. I never actually said you would constantly make 10g per hour for every hour you play constantly continuously without stopping. You go afk sometimes. You roleplay sometimes, you go watch movies sometimes. See? This behavior on the forum. You deliberately take data, sources out of context so you can advance your own agenda. I have an advise for you: “Write in honesty. Don’t misrepresent information” Maybe that’s something too hard to do?

You leave the game running while you go to the movies? I am positive that this is not typical player behavior. This is not “hours since they first logged in,” this is “hours playing the game,” it is presumably mostly spent actively engaged in the game.

And as I said, I don’t dispute that you can make 10g per hour, or more, my disagreement was that I did not believe that this accurately reflected actual player behavior, and apparently you totally agree with me, so good.

In fact your data proved my point. Most players layer with up to 500h under their belt has a total account worth (including account-bound items) of around 960g. Which means they have earned more than enough for a full ascended set. See?

And as I pointed out, that value includes numerous non-fungible items that would be of no use in constructing Ascended armor. It’s not that they have that much in liquid currency, or in tradable mats, a lot of it is tied up in account-bound items that they never had options with. If I were to liquidate my account today it would free up about half of the total value of the account.

And even then, even if they could liquidate to the point where they would have enough to create a single set of Ascended armor, that still wouldn’t account for multiple characters, and would leave them very little else to play with. A player should not have to completely cash out their account to earn a 10% stat boost.

Except your data doesn’t show break time or afk time.

It is the time that the player was engaged enough in the game to have the client running. That’s good enough. However they were playing the game, they were not averaging anywhere near 10g per hour.

Nobody is preventing you from playing the activities you enjoy that was never a part of the discussion was it? And no being forced to play specific activities to get specific rewards is never a problem, in fact the opposite is a major problem.

If there is a reward I want, and there is only a single way to earn that item, then I would be forced to do that one activity to earn that item. You may believe that this is not “forcing,” and that may be true for you, but understand that it is not universally true.

Is there a problem by having everything hidden behind gold? There are many problems, it devalues the content and it causes an excessive grind to name a few problems with it. Adding a lot of ways of getting the rewards has the exact same problems. Remember how your solution for alternatives always has the option to replace a bit of challenge with extra grind, same thing as with gold.

The problems with gold are that you can buy it with real money, and that you can take gold and convert it into more gold via the TP, both of which devalues it as an expression of merit. Having multiple ways of earning gold is a feature, not a bug.

Ohoni.6057:

The problems with gold are that you can buy it with real money, and that you can take gold and convert it into more gold via the TP, both of which devalues it as an expression of merit. Having multiple ways of earning gold is a feature, not a bug.

So your only issue with gold is that you can get it with real money and the TP flipping? I disagree even without gems to gold or the TP a universal currency is still bad for a game and makes it feel unrewarding. Multiple ways of getting the rewards are the same as having a universal currency, both lead to a non-rewarding game.

I’ll take a rewarding game over a game that gives everything to everyone any day. Non-rewarding games stop being fun quickly

Ohoni.6057:

Nobody is preventing you from playing the activities you enjoy that was never a part of the discussion was it? And no being forced to play specific activities to get specific rewards is never a problem, in fact the opposite is a major problem.

If there is a reward I want, and there is only a single way to earn that item, then I would be forced to do that one activity to earn that item. You may believe that this is not “forcing,” and that may be true for you, but understand that it is not universally true.

Is there a problem by having everything hidden behind gold? There are many problems, it devalues the content and it causes an excessive grind to name a few problems with it. Adding a lot of ways of getting the rewards has the exact same problems. Remember how your solution for alternatives always has the option to replace a bit of challenge with extra grind, same thing as with gold.

The problems with gold are that you can buy it with real money, and that you can take gold and convert it into more gold via the TP, both of which devalues it as an expression of merit. Having multiple ways of earning gold is a feature, not a bug.

You are like a criminal saying oh to satisfy by bloodlust I have to kill someone and that is the only way to do it, hence I was forced into killing someone. How about just don’t kill someone? It’s just life my Friend sometimes we want stuff we can’t get, I wanted to be a doctor but I wasn’t smart enough to get into Med school. That’s life.

Ohoni.6057:

If there is a reward I want, and there is only a single way to earn that item

Then you do that activity and earn what you want. Or you decide that it’s not worth it.
Simple.

Then you do that activity and earn what you want. Or you decide that it’s not worth it.
Simple.

Or, since it’s a game, and the goal is to have fun, and anything is subject to change, I petition the developers to alter the game such that I can earn the reward while doing things that I enjoy. Maybe they will, maybe they won’t, but it’s still better than just giving up.

Ohoni.6057:

Then you do that activity and earn what you want. Or you decide that it’s not worth it.
Simple.

Or, since it’s a game, and the goal is to have fun, and anything is subject to change, I petition the developers to alter the game such that I can earn the reward while doing things that I enjoy. Maybe they will, maybe they won’t, but it’s still better than just giving up.

So they must alter every single aspect to cater to every single player as they demand? That’s a mighty entitlement my friend.

Ohoni.6057:

Then you do that activity and earn what you want. Or you decide that it’s not worth it.
Simple.

Or, since it’s a game, and the goal is to have fun, and anything is subject to change, I petition the developers to alter the game such that I can earn the reward while doing things that I enjoy. Maybe they will, maybe they won’t, but it’s still better than just giving up.

And make the game an unrewarding mess in the process?

Ohoni.6057:

Or, since it’s a game, and the goal is to have fun, and anything is subject to change, I petition the developers to alter the game such that I can earn the reward while doing things that I enjoy. Maybe they will, maybe they won’t, but it’s still better than just giving up.

Funny thing you insist that exotic top tier even though anything (including top tier) is subject to change.
But nvm.

I guess you should petition they give you legendary precursor for daily login for three months. You already put your best effort logging in. It should be rewarded, kek.

I suggest you stop bullying Ohoni for making a valid argument to state his opinion on the matter.

Inverse.2967:

I suggest you stop bullying Ohoni for making a valid argument to state his opinion on the matter.

It’s actually my first time using his own statements against him.
I just can’t understand how can he say that everything is subject to change and still refusing ascended as a top tier (which is also subject to change with hot release and legendary armors).

Limenox.8320:

Inverse.2967:

I suggest you stop bullying Ohoni for making a valid argument to state his opinion on the matter.

It’s actually my first time using his own statements against him.
I just can’t understand how can he say that everything is subject to change and still refusing ascended as a top tier (which is also subject to change with hot release and legendary armors).

I didn’t cite your post specifically there, as it was meant to address the overall bashing of ohoni’s argument without bringing up any counter argument just for the sake of trying to belittle his opinion in general.

Inverse.2967:

Limenox.8320:

Inverse.2967:

I suggest you stop bullying Ohoni for making a valid argument to state his opinion on the matter.

It’s actually my first time using his own statements against him.
I just can’t understand how can he say that everything is subject to change and still refusing ascended as a top tier (which is also subject to change with hot release and legendary armors).

I didn’t cite your post specifically there, as it was meant to address the overall bashing of ohoni’s argument without bringing up any counter argument just for the sake of trying to belittle his opinion in general.

Which argument are you talking about?

Zephyria.6103:

I’m excited for raiding. I know I’m not ready for it, and that’s ok. My concern is that GW2 raiding will be too similar to WoW raiding…which I left that game because of.

I hated slogging through repeat runs to get gear drops so we could progress in the raid. If I want to kill a raid boss…great, let’s do it. Five or six times even, cool.

But once it becomes you running it just to check the loot drop, and then feeling dissappointed that you have to do it again because of course your gear didn’t drop….sigh. That is my biggest fear.

Just…don’t make gear required for raiding drop from raiding only. Give variety (even if it’s hard variety) in ways to obtain. There’s only so much wash rinse repeat I can take.

(keep in mind…I’m fairly new…and don’t have much good gear yet, so I’m still foggy on how it’s obtained currently)

I think (key word is think because I am not positive) that it’s not gear drops, it’s mats required for legendary gear. That’s not to say there wont be exotic gear or even ascended jewelry drops but both of those are not all that important and easy to obtain without raiding.

Since most people already have ascended, I seriously doubt there will be much in the way of exclusion. lol

Ohoni.6057:

All you said was that I was wrong, and I’m being defensive for pointing out that I was not and that you were merely misinterpreting the statements. Oooooo-kay. . .

Like you kept misinterpreting and misrepresenting information everywhere? Yeah. You definitely need to try not to do so.

Ohoni.6057:

You aren’t allowed to use the royal “we.” Perhaps you were talking about the game world’s population, but I was not. If we were to talk about the game’s population, there really isn’t much data to go on as to how many of them would be willing and able to stomach a WoW-style raid, but based on player trends, my personal assumption is that it would be a very small portion of the players. If long raids were something GW2 players actually wanted, then Fractals would have been much more popular than they actually are.

Nobody care about earth population. It’s irrelevant to the discussion. The only population we are interested in here is Gw2 population. Say on topic dude.

[You have not proven that they were in development before launch ] Yes by the software development process cycle, it was proven that they clearly planned this at launch ? Your mistake number 1.

You made a number of random assumptions. That does not “prove” anything.

It proved everything that ascended was planned before launch.

[they conflict with the statements developers made about the game prior to launch,] This doesn’t contradict any statements the developers made ? Your mistake number 2.

Ascended gear does contradict the statements they made pre-launch, as building Ascended armor does require long term gear grind to earn stats, which is exactly what they claimed GW2 players would never have to do. Why do you continue to argue this point?

There is no grind for ascended. Just play the game and you get it. Only you think that there is perceived grind or you force yourself to grind. No actual grind. Sorry to break that news to you.

Do not insult us both with passive-aggression.

No, I merely try to help you. It’s your pride and stubbornness that you can’t see how to make ascended easy.

You have repeatedly implied that I am a less capable or engaged player than you are, with nothing to back that point beyond that we disagree on what is fun in the game. I play perfectly well, and there’s nothing that I would need your help to learn.

I comment nothing on your gameplay capability but you apparently don’t understand how easy it is to make ascended (you kept saying its grindy and hard which is contrary to being easy) hence I offer you help to see how easy it is to make ascended.

?

You’re confused about cost vs worth?

You leave the game running while you go to the movies? I am positive that this is not typical player behavior. This is not “hours since they first logged in,” this is “hours playing the game,” it is presumably mostly spent actively engaged in the game.

Yeah sometimes. Yeah you hang out with friends in game. Yeah you do personal story, yeah you do living story, yeah you spend time help teaching new players. Yeah you spend time teaching your guildies how to might stack etc etc Yeah a typical player do do all these things. Your objection doesn’t defeat my point that: once a player set aside time to play the game properly, 10g per hour is easy

And as I said, I don’t dispute that you can make 10g per hour, or more, my disagreement was that I did not believe that this accurately reflected actual player behavior, and apparently you totally agree with me, so good.

Yeah so set aside sometimes to get gold

In fact your data proved my point. Most players layer with up to 500h under their belt has a total account worth (including account-bound items) of around 960g. Which means they have earned more than enough for a full ascended set. See?

And as I pointed out, that value includes numerous non-fungible items that would be of no use in constructing Ascended armor. It’s not that they have that much in liquid currency, or in tradable mats, a lot of it is tied up in account-bound items that they never had options with. If I were to liquidate my account today it would free up about half of the total value of the account.

And even then, even if they could liquidate to the point where they would have enough to create a single set of Ascended armor, that still wouldn’t account for multiple characters, and would leave them very little else to play with. A player should not have to completely cash out their account to earn a 10% stat boost.

600g out of 960g is hard cash out their account. And it’s not just for a 10% stat boost. Its for a “forever armor” as someone here mentioned. It’s a one time thing.

And again it’s a choice. Just like you made your choice of not making ascended. It’s like an item in the store. You either choose to buy it or you choose not to buy it. Or you can wait, albeit forever for it to be on sale (I mean it’s already on sale through RNG – free- sometimes if you actually play the game). And good luck with that.

So they must alter every single aspect to cater to every single player as they demand? That’s a mighty entitlement my friend.

It’s not that they must, it’s that they should try to adapt the game to as many players as possible, so long as it does no harm elsewhere. Look, if it were just me who wanted this then they should obviously not do it, Totally not worth it on their end. I don’t believe for a second that it’s just me though, and neither do any of you or you wouldn’t be trying so hard to get me to shut up about it. If my cause were as hopeless as you all make it out to be then there would be no reason whatsoever for the vitriol thrown my way.

And make the game an unrewarding mess in the process?

No, it would be more rewarding, since practically every activity available would progress you closer to the rewards that you want, as opposed to the system you want, in which many activities would only offer rewards that you don’t particularly care about, while plenty of other activities would offer rewards that you want, but only for engaging in activities that you cannot stand performing. How is that an improvement?

Funny thing you insist that exotic top tier even though anything (including top tier) is subject to change.

Nothing “funny” about it. I only insist that it was top tier at launch, which it was, and that it was top tier when they made promises that the bar would not be raised and that the game would not force you to grind out higher stats, which is what Ascended armor would be.

I guess you should petition they give you legendary precursor for daily login for three months. You already put your best effort logging in. It should be rewarded, kek.

If that’s something you want, argue for it, but that’s never been my position, and I do not support it.

It’s actually my first time using his own statements against him.

I do not think that means what you think it means.

I just can’t understand how can he say that everything is subject to change and still refusing ascended as a top tier (which is also subject to change with hot release and legendary armors).

It’s obviously top tier now, that was never in dispute, it was just not top tier at launch, when they were making claims that they would not raise what the top tier was.

Since most people already have ascended, I seriously doubt there will be much in the way of exclusion. lol

I’d like to see some basis for this. I wonder if there’s any way to figure out what percentage of the population has at least one full set of ascended, and how many have multiple sets. GW2Efficiency doesn’t seem to track this, but maybe they could.

There is no grind for ascended. Just play the game and you get it. Only you think that there is perceived grind or you force yourself to grind. No actual grind. Sorry to break that news to you.

And again, I’ve been “playing the game” daily for three years, and have only gotten two pieces of Ascended armor as a result (and no weapons). Anything else I have I had to buy or make myself, which takes specific effort towards that task. You’ve got to stop this “just play the game” nonsense.

Yeah sometimes. Yeah you hang out with friends in game. Yeah you do personal story, yeah you do living story, yeah you spend time help teaching new players. Yeah you spend time teaching your guildies how to might stack etc etc Yeah a typical player do do all these things. Your objection doesn’t defeat my point that: once a player set aside time to play the game properly, 10g per hour is easy

And yet the more hours a player puts into the game, the gold per hour doesn’t ride significantly, it seems to plateau off around 1000 hours and just stays roughly steady (presumably once they get most of their characters to 80). Again, I do not dispute that if you devote yourself to only activities that have good gold returns you could make 10g per hour, or more. My point has always been that this is not how most people play the game, nor how they should be expected to play the game, so the potential to make that amount of gold is irrelevant, what matters is how much gold they are expected to make of, as you would put it, “just playing the game,” which would include all those other activities you listed.

600g out of 960g is hard cash out their account.

I’m not sure where you get that. The players with 960g in account value apparently have only 84g in currency, 61g in their banks (not necessarily in resellable items, mind you), and 192g in mats, so even if they combined all of that it would only add up to 337, not enough for Ascended medium armor, and that’s assuming that they could sell everything they had.

And even if a player does get that one suit of Ascended armor, that would only account for one character, most players have several characters they would want to gear up. The price of Ascended is way too high for that.

And again it’s a choice. Just like you made your choice of not making ascended. It’s like an item in the store. You either choose to buy it or you choose not to buy it. Or you can wait, albeit forever for it to be on sale (I mean it’s already on sale through RNG – free- sometimes if you actually play the game). And good luck with that.

Thank you.

BaconofPigs.1683:

600g out of 960g is hard cash out their account. And it’s not just for a 10% stat boost. Its for a “forever armor” as someone here mentioned. It’s a one time thing.

Only with raids, it’s really not. Is it?

From the sounds of things, raids may require you to have multiple sets with different stats on them. It’s a natural way to slow down players’ progression through the raids, really. Make them earn more ascended gear to beat the raids. It’s part of “killing the zerker meta”, too.

And yes, I still support them being tuned to ascended, even thinking that.

Ohoni.6057:

Nothing “funny” about it. I only insist that it was top tier at launch, which it was, and that it was top tier when they made promises that the bar would not be raised and that the game would not force you to grind out higher stats, which is what Ascended armor would be.

Running a few dungeon paths on daily basis can hardly be called grind.

Ohoni.6057:

I guess you should petition they give you legendary precursor for daily login for three months. You already put your best effort logging in. It should be rewarded, kek.

If that’s something you want, argue for it, but that’s never been my position, and I do not support it.

It was sarcasm. Dunno how you didn’t get that.

Palador.2170:

Only with raids, it’s really not. Is it?

From the sounds of things, raids may require you to have multiple sets with different stats on them. It’s a natural way to slow down players’ progression through the raids, really. Make them earn more ascended gear to beat the raids. It’s part of “killing the zerker meta”, too.

And yes, I still support them being tuned to ascended, even thinking that.

Yea, but considering all ascended armor is account bound, and they made swapping stat sets both easy and cheap, that doesn’t seem like a huge inconvenience. You can get enough spirit shards to convert a full suit of armor in 20 days just from doing dailies, not even counting the ones from champ chests (personally about a 25-33% chance in my experience). then a little bit of gold (or if you got the mats saved up) you can theoretically take your one ascended suit, drop a portable mystic forge and even change armor suits between fights!

Or if you’re like some players who have a couple suits (I like heavy characters and have about 3 sets of heavy armor) you can drop em on a single character and set up the stats for different characters, etc. They’ve added so many avenues for getting ascended gear from world bosses, fractals, WvW, PvP, crafting, achievements (From LS1 and 2), I don’t know how much easier they can make it without selling it at vendors.

And wow… I can’t believe how much fail I see in this thread. Seriously, just because a reward or event comes out doesn’t mean every single player should have access to it. This whole “play how you want” mentality started off as a good idea, but people have taken it and run to mean “I can be worthless and you have to like it” idea. Seriously, it’s a game, and games are supposed to have challenges to be fun, otherwise you might as well just read a book or watch a movie. Final Fantasy 1 was an amazing and difficult game, Final Fantasy X had a freaking red arrow TELLING YOU WHERE TO GO! What has happened to gaming?! People want loot, but for that loot to have any kind of value (both monetary and emotionally) there should be some degree of challenge and a sense of accomplishment.

What happened to the days of getting together with a few of your friends and trying new content, the pain of defeat, the joy of busting your posterior for weeks trying to figure out the encounter and finally beating it, then the pride that came from rocking around your new and shiny loot for everyone to work towards? Where someone having a shiny wasn’t met with jealousy and envious feelings of bile, but rather serving as an inspiration for people to work towards? Now people are complaining about having to do a raid that’s like 30-45 minutes long that’s difficult and might take a few tries to learn how to do it? I work 70+ hours a week and still have time to log in every day for dailies and my daily rotation of fractals and dungeons, maintain a social life, spend time with my fiance, etc. If you want to do something, you’ll find a way to do it and budget your time accordingly. This whole mentality that a guy who spends an hour should have the same experience as a guy who plays 50 is ridiculous, and that’s all I’m seeing in so many MMOs. These are the same guys who cause my fractal runs to take twice as long because they want to “play their way” and demand I like it. Then they get mad when I boot them from my group because I don’t want to spend the next 30-45 minutes carrying them.

NO ONE is suggesting that you play this game like a full time job, those days are long gone (but we’re fun in their own right back then). Spending an hour a day trying out a raid to learn how to do it is not asking you to play the game like a full time job. If you can’t afford to spend an hour learning content then really gaming in general is not for you. Candy Crush is likely more your speed.

Celtic Lady.3729:

Since most people already have ascended, I seriously doubt there will be much in the way of exclusion. lol

Do you have a source for this claim? Are you referring to any piece of ascended gear, or full ascended? Fabricated statements, ending with a “lol” give the impression that you’re not contributing in good faith.

sicsempertyrannis.3510:

Celtic Lady.3729:

Since most people already have ascended, I seriously doubt there will be much in the way of exclusion. lol

Do you have a source for this claim? Are you referring to any piece of ascended gear, or full ascended? Fabricated statements, ending with a “lol” give the impression that you’re not contributing in good faith.

I think a way to better word his statement is: Most people could already have ascended. It’s been in the game for 2 years, and the market for said items has generally mellowed down. Earning a full set of ascended is a goal that takes some time, but is easily achievable with commitment.

Running a few dungeon paths on daily basis can hardly be called grind.

It is if you don’t enjoy dungeons.

It was sarcasm. Dunno how you didn’t get that.

Poe’s Law. There have been some really stupid posts lately, and I really do try to give people the benefit of the doubt that they aren’t just throwing out straw men.

Ohoni.6057:

No, it would be more rewarding, since practically every activity available would progress you closer to the rewards that you want, as opposed to the system you want, in which many activities would only offer rewards that you don’t particularly care about, while plenty of other activities would offer rewards that you want, but only for engaging in activities that you cannot stand performing. How is that an improvement?

Offering every reward from every activity isn’t making a game rewarding at all, it makes it a grindy mess. Progressing towards what you want by doing anything you want leads us to the gold problem, you can progress towards any reward on the TP by playing anything you want, yet that doesn’t feel rewarding the least bit.

Putting rewards behind specific content on the other hand is a huge improvement in how rewards work, it makes the game actually feel rewarding. And as far away of the gold paradigm as possible.

Universal currencies are bad for rewards. Multiple ways (to clarify: A LOT of them) to get rewards are like universal currencies, therefore multiple ways to get rewards are bad for rewards. Don’t get me wrong, I never had a problem with multiple ways to get rewards, but I thought they would be limited in scope, as I talked about with Torrolan, but alowing every single activity to give any rewards is taking us back to boring old grindy gold.

Why do you want those multiple ways if you can just use gold/karma then? Because you can buy gems with cash and flip the TP? That’s your only reason?

Ohoni.6057:

Nothing “funny” about it. I only insist that it was top tier at launch, which it was, and that it was top tier when they made promises that the bar would not be raised and that the game would not force you to grind out higher stats, which is what Ascended armor would be.

The funny part is you actually believe that? Really? As we have proven that ascended was planned launch yo.

It’s obviously top tier now, that was never in dispute, it was just not top tier at launch, when they were making claims that they would not raise what the top tier was.

November 2012 is as good enough as at launch. You just refused to accept it.

And again, I’ve been “playing the game” daily for three years, and have only gotten two pieces of Ascended armor as a result (and no weapons). Anything else I have I had to buy or make myself, which takes specific effort towards that task. You’ve got to stop this “just play the game” nonsense.

So you insist on not playing the game. What can we do?

I’m not sure where you get that. The players with 960g in account value apparently have only 84g in currency, 61g in their banks (not necessarily in resellable items, mind you), and 192g in mats, so even if they combined all of that it would only add up to 337, not enough for Ascended medium armor, and that’s assuming that they could sell everything they had.

Where do you get that number? Made up? Is that a specific player?

And again it’s a choice. Just like you made your choice of not making ascended. It’s like an item in the store. You either choose to buy it or you choose not to buy it. Or you can wait, albeit forever for it to be on sale (I mean it’s already on sale through RNG – free- sometimes if you actually play the game). And good luck with that.

Thank you.

You’re welcome.

It’s only natural that specific rewards require specific actions.
You can’t run dungeons and have www badges to buy gift of battle.
You can’t run ascalon for arah badges.

It was that way from the release of guild wars 2. For me at least.
If I want something I do what is required to get that.

Ohoni.6057:

Running a few dungeon paths on daily basis can hardly be called grind.

It is if you don’t enjoy dungeons.

You can also use that same argument to say every activity in the game is unenjoyable except for the reward part – which is clearly false. So your statement is just false. You’re just cherry picking. Typical.

I am curious to know what percentage of the community can actually achieve legendary armor. Let’s say that 60% of the community did achieve that goal. If that happened, would raids be deemed a failure as “hard content”. I see a lot of posts saying people choose not to acquire legendary armor but is it a choice or will the content be too hard for most of the community? Just curious as to your thoughts out there. Should the content be too hard for most of the community or should it be achievable once the mechanics are known?

Ohoni.6057:

It’s not that they must, it’s that they should try to adapt the game to as many players as possible, so long as it does no harm elsewhere. Look, if it were just me who wanted this then they should obviously not do it, Totally not worth it on their end. I don’t believe for a second that it’s just me though, and neither do any of you or you wouldn’t be trying so hard to get me to shut up about it. If my cause were as hopeless as you all make it out to be then there would be no reason whatsoever for the vitriol thrown my way.

It’s not that we’re trying to get you to “shut up” about it. We’re trying to explain to you that altering the game’s model and direction to cater to the Entitled is bad business.

If you don’t want to play Raids, don’t play. Simple as that. If you really want that Legendary armor, but don’t want to play Raids, then you’ve agreed to never getting it. It’s hard to make a complaint over something that you’ve consciously decided to not pursue. It’s illogical. It’s like saying “I want a college degree in Economics”, while also saying “and I prefer getting it without having to go to school”.

Yes there will be a lot of players who won’t like Raids. At the same time, there will be a lot of players without Legendary armor. And to the point of this thread, that is ok. I may very well be one of those players who won’t have Legendary armor. But that would just mean I don’t deserve it. Legendary gear, going forward, will only be for those who put in the efforts. You can call them Elites, Hardcore, what have you. The common theme they’ll all share is that they’re worthy of such gear.

Ohoni.6057:

Running a few dungeon paths on daily basis can hardly be called grind.

It is if you don’t enjoy dungeons.

Ok, Ohoni. From the little bit I read, I’m getting that you are in disagreement with where you think the game is going. I want to ask you a question, but first, let me clearify a couple things.

- You seem to be salty about the whole concept of ascended gear. From what I understand, one big reason you don’t like it is because it wasn’t in the game at launch, and you think A-net promised they wouldn’t run a system where they add additional tiers of gear to the game. To be clear, one of the biggest reasons it wasn’t in the game at launch is because A-net ran out of time to impliment it. If you were playing at release, you should understand that many core systems simply didn’t make it in time. This issue was further realized when A-net saw people were getting exotic gear far too easily, and partially as a result — running out of things to strive for. Realizing this, and the huge disparity between exotic and legenday, A-net finally got around to implimenting ascended (they were even nice enough to role the acquisition out nice and slow to give the more casual populous a chance at catching up with the hatdcore).

Furthermore, A-net has stuck true to their promise. Despite what you may believe, they never promised that they wouldn’t add an additional tier. Rather, they promised that they wouldn’t support a tier ladders in new content. This means that they decided to not continuously add new tiers of gear as the backbone for progression. “Adding” one tier wasn’t breaking that promise, it was filling in kitten that was left post-launch.

There, now with that out of the way, it is clear you do not want to work towards ascended gear — which is fine. But, I guess what I am getting at is: what are you working towards? You said you don’t enjoy dungeons, so what do you enjoy? Are you salty about “needing” ascended gear because without it, you think you will be excluded from raids? Assuming you answer yes to the previous question, If you don’t enjoy dungeons, what makes you think you would enjoy raids (essentially hardcore dungeons)? It is quite possibly just not content that works for you.

I have more to say, but first, I need to understand your mindset. Also, please forgive any missed typos…I wrote this from a phone at 1 in the morning out of intrigue. :P

Smooth Penguin.5294:

Ohoni.6057:

It’s not that they must, it’s that they should try to adapt the game to as many players as possible, so long as it does no harm elsewhere. Look, if it were just me who wanted this then they should obviously not do it, Totally not worth it on their end. I don’t believe for a second that it’s just me though, and neither do any of you or you wouldn’t be trying so hard to get me to shut up about it. If my cause were as hopeless as you all make it out to be then there would be no reason whatsoever for the vitriol thrown my way.

It’s not that we’re trying to get you to “shut up” about it. We’re trying to explain to you that altering the game’s model and direction to cater to the Entitled is bad business.

If you don’t want to play Raids, don’t play. Simple as that. If you really want that Legendary armor, but don’t want to play Raids, then you’ve agreed to never getting it. It’s hard to make a complaint over something that you’ve consciously decided to not pursue. It’s illogical. It’s like saying “I want a college degree in Economics”, while also saying “and I prefer getting it without having to go to school”.

Yes there will be a lot of players who won’t like Raids. At the same time, there will be a lot of players without Legendary armor. And to the point of this thread, that is ok. I may very well be one of those players who won’t have Legendary armor. But that would just mean I don’t deserve it. Legendary gear, going forward, will only be for those who put in the efforts. You can call them Elites, Hardcore, what have you. The common theme they’ll all share is that they’re worthy of such gear.

You worded it better than me.

When people were calling for “hard content” was it truly for the difficult gameplay or the exclusivity? I feel that there are some really dedicated players who honestly want to be challenged to the utmost of their skills. On the other hand, I also feel there is another element of players who are intent on creating an exclusive “caste system” within the game. I think that the second category of players is what causes all the hard feelings about legendary armor being gated behind these raids. If this is truly going to be “hard content” a lot of people will try but only a few should succeed…. right?

Dashingsteel.3410:

When people were calling for “hard content” was it truly for the difficult gameplay or the exclusivity? I feel that there are some really dedicated players who honestly want to be challenged to the utmost of their skills. On the other hand, I also feel there is another element of players who are intent on creating an exclusive “caste system” within the game. I think that the second category of players is what causes all the hard feelings about legendary armor being gated behind these raids. If this is truly going to be “hard content” a lot of people will try but only a few should succeed…. right?

It was for both. What many people posting here misunderstand is that many players do not want raids to have exclusive rewards, but every type of content to have exclusive rewards. And it’s really funny because all the arguments against it are only valid versus raids having exclusive rewards and not all types of content.

So, let’s stop pretending here, those who are asking for raids not to have exclusive rewards are not asking that at all, they are asking for no piece of content to have exclusive rewards, which leads the game back to being based on gold, a boring grindy mess.

I am just curious what success rate “hard content” should allow. Will it be hard content if 15 percent of the community get legendary armor? How about 10 percent of the community? Does anyone have an opinion on what they see as an acceptable percentage of players being able to get this stuff? For it to really be “hard content” what should the percentage be?

Offering every reward from every activity isn’t making a game rewarding at all, it makes it a grindy mess. Progressing towards what you want by doing anything you want leads us to the gold problem, you can progress towards any reward on the TP by playing anything you want, yet that doesn’t feel rewarding the least bit.

Because it’s on the TP, but progressing towards dungeon armors you want, or Silverwaste badge rewards, or geode purchases can be a lot of fun. The only point at which is becomes “grindy” is when the asking price requires you to spend more time in that specific area than you’d care to, because you’ve already done all you wanted to do there and would prefer to move on.

That’s why it’s best when you could then earn those same tokens in other areas, so that if you get, say, half the ambrite weapons, and still want the other half, but are totally bored with Dry Top and it would be a grind to stay there any longer, you could move on to another zone, but continue to collect something fungible into geodes, so you can continue to progress your ambrite collection, just at a slightly reduced pace.

It’s only grind when you’re not having fun.

Universal currencies are bad for rewards. Multiple ways (to clarify: A LOT of them) to get rewards are like universal currencies, therefore multiple ways to get rewards are bad for rewards.

None of these are statements of facts, they are all your opinion, and I disagree with all of them.

Why do you want those multiple ways if you can just use gold/karma then? Because you can buy gems with cash and flip the TP? That’s your only reason?

for gold, yes. The way the TP is run has ruined gold as a currency. Karma could have worked as a currency, but it was horribly mismanaged over the past three years and is currently impossible to fix. They did too poor a job of managing sources for karma, and too poor a job at creating sinks for it, to the result that anyone who has been in the game a long time now has millions of karma. If they attempted to do anything practical with karma then it would either result in A. Any veteran player could buy All The Things in the first day, or B. Any recent player would have to save up years to afford anything, or C. The new items would be very high priced but the new methods would be much more generous, effectively making the last three years of karma collection pointless. None of these things would go over well.

They would need to start with a fresh currency, one that they could start with each player having zero, and only earning what they intend for them to earn.

The funny part is you actually believe that? Really? As we have proven that ascended was planned launch yo.

Repeating that “it was proven” multiple times does not make it proven. You did not prove your case, you just made several assumptions and insisted that they constituted proof.

November 2012 is as good enough as at launch. You just refused to accept it.

No, it’s not. Launch is launch. Post launch is post launch. If it wasn’t there at launch, it wasn’t there at launch.

Where do you get that number? Made up? Is that a specific player?

It’s according to GW2Efficiency, of the median 100-500hour player that owns an account worth 960g.

It’s only natural that specific rewards require specific actions.
You can’t run dungeons and have www badges to buy gift of battle.
You can’t run ascalon for arah badges.

You can PvP and get dungeon tokens, why should you not be able to earn other things elsewhere? For the record, the system I had been discussing before, you wouldn’t actually be able to earn Arah badges in Ascalon, not directly, but you would be able to convert between the two at an NPC, at a lossy exchange rate and adjusted for relative difficulties. If you enjoy doing Arah, then running Arah would remain the most efficient way in the game to earn Arah tokens (aside from PvP, of course), but if you don’t enjoy Arah, you could pursue it via other activities, albiet at a slower rate.

You can also use that same argument to say every activity in the game is unenjoyable except for the reward part – which is clearly false. So your statement is just false. You’re just cherry picking. Typical.

If you don’t enjoy any activity in the game then you have no reason to be playing the game. The whole point of rewards is to enhance the time you spend playing in the game world, if you don’t play in the game world then there’s no point to earning rewards in that game, and you should probably seek rewards in some other game that you do enjoy.

If, however, you really enjoy some parts of the game, which I assume you do, but perhaps don’t enjoy other parts, then it benefits no one for the developers to pressure you into those areas you do not enjoy, when you could be in the areas that you do enjoy. The less time you spend doing things that you do not enjoy, the less you begrudge the game, making you more likely to continue playing, and keeping you happy enough to buy things in the gem store.

If you don’t want to play Raids, don’t play. Simple as that. If you really want that Legendary armor, but don’t want to play Raids, then you’ve agreed to never getting it.

And I’m saying that this attitude is bad business. It’s forcing a lose/lose situation on the customer. Either lose by giving up entirely on something that you want, or lose by engaging in activity that you do not enjoy, making that portion of your life a negative rather than a positive experience. Who benefits from that?

It’s like saying “I want a college degree in Economics”, while also saying “and I prefer getting it without having to go to school”.

And in the real world, we can both agree that this would be silly. But this is a game, the rules can be anything ANet says they are, and if they say you can get an economics degree without going to school for it, then sure, why not?

Yes there will be a lot of players who won’t like Raids. At the same time, there will be a lot of players without Legendary armor. And to the point of this thread, that is ok.

That is your opinion, I disagree.

Legendary gear, going forward, will only be for those who put in the efforts. You can call them Elites, Hardcore, what have you. The common theme they’ll all share is that they’re worthy of such gear.

Nobody is “worthy” of anything,. It’s a game. You are handed what the developers choose to hand you. The people that receive fancy things are not better or worse than other players, they just happen to fit into the right shaped hole that the things they are willing and able to do are the things that needed to get done to be handed that item. That’s it. I’m just asking that they widen the options for being given those items.

Ohoni.6057:

Because it’s on the TP, but progressing towards dungeon armors you want, or Silverwaste badge rewards, or geode purchases can be a lot of fun.

Yes, progressing towards dungeon armors by doing dungeons, progressing in Silverwastes to get your lumi armor and gathering geodes to get your ambrite skins is fun. Doing the above to get any of the rewards is the same as having them on the TP, equal to a boring grindy mess.

It’s only grind when you’re not having fun.

That’s false. Fun has nothing to do with grind.

None of these are statements of facts, they are all your opinion, and I disagree with all of them.

They are actually facts. Just because you don’t agree with them doesn’t make them less than facts. You just can’t understand it because your mind is stuck.

They would need to start with a fresh currency, one that they could start with each player having zero, and only earning what they intend for them to earn.

A fresh new universal currency will end up the same as gold/karma. A boring grindy mess.

Dashingsteel.3410:

I am just curious what success rate “hard content” should allow. Will it be hard content if 15 percent of the community get legendary armor? How about 10 percent of the community? Does anyone have an opinion on what they see as an acceptable percentage of players being able to get this stuff? For it to really be “hard content” what should the percentage be?

Do you want any content to have exclusive rewards or not? That’s the big question.

Ohoni, I do think there are players who do want exclusive fancy things to denote that they are a more skillful player than those without the items. These players do feel they are more worthy than you and they want the items to prove it. Note I didn’t say all “hard content” players are like this but there are some that are.

Yes there should be exclusive rewards.

Dashingsteel.3410:

Yes there should be exclusive rewards.

If you want exclusive rewards then what’s the problem in raids having them?

- You seem to be salty about the whole concept of ascended gear. From what I understand, one big reason you don’t like it is because it wasn’t in the game at launch, and you think A-net promised they wouldn’t run a system where they add additional tiers of gear to the game. To be clear, one of the biggest reasons it wasn’t in the game at launch is because A-net ran out of time to impliment it.

This is Bacon’s assertion. There is no proof to support it. If you could find me a developer quote, from any time period, that specifically says that Ascended was planned from before launch, then fair enough, but I haven’t seen such a quote. Ideally you could find a quote from before launch, anywhere, that says “we plan to have another tier of weapons and armor under Legendary, but have not got them in yet.”

That it took them a full year to implement the weapons and armor is a bit ridiculous if they intended them before launch, given that they implemented several other weapon and armor sets during that time, and the Ascended crafting system is NOT terribly complicated once they had the base crafts in place (and presumably, if they had intended them since before launch, they would also have the coding hooks to effortlessly extend the existing crafts). At that point, the code is mostly copy-paste. The delay in implementation suggests that it was a last minute patch.

And even if they did intend it from before launch, that would mean that they were openly lying to the players about gearing in the game, because they were promising that you would not have to grind to get the best stats, and you cannot for one seconds insinuate that Ascended armor is not grinding.

I prefer to believe that they changed their mind after launch than that they were bold-faced lying to the public in their pre-launch press, but you make your own choice on that one.

(they were even nice enough to role the acquisition out nice and slow to give the more casual populous a chance at catching up with the hatdcore).

The “slow roll out” had nothing to do with the disparity between casual and hardcore. Casual players had no easier time catching up because of it. In fact, if they had wanted to keep casuals at the pace of the hardcore, then they would have added all the tools of ascended crafting, like the Bloodstone-esc mats, and the crafting sets, so that casuals could get started on that, while leaving out some key element so that you couldn’t actually take that last step to making the item. That way, a hardcore player could get Tailor 500 in a day or whatever, and a more casual player might take months, but then months later when they unlocked the final step, both players could be making their first armor that day.

Furthermore, A-net has stuck true to their promise. Despite what you may believe, they never promised that they wouldn’t add an additional tier. Rather, they promised that they wouldn’t support a tier ladders in new content. This means that they decided to not continuously add new tiers of gear as the backbone for progression. “Adding” one tier wasn’t breaking that promise, it was filling in kitten that was left post-launch.

Adding a tier is adding a tier.

There, now with that out of the way, it is clear you do not want to work towards ascended gear — which is fine. But, I guess what I am getting at is: what are you working towards? You said you don’t enjoy dungeons, so what do you enjoy?

Mostly open world content, exploration, dynamic events, that sort of thing. There is plenty I intend to do once HoT launches, I just don’t want raids to prevent me from getting Legendary Armor skins along the way.

Are you salty about “needing” ascended gear because without it, you think you will be excluded from raids? Assuming you answer yes to the previous question, If you don’t enjoy dungeons, what makes you think you would enjoy raids (essentially hardcore dungeons)? It is quite possibly just not content that works for you.

I probably won’t enjoy raids, based on previous activities in the game, but for the time being raids are the only known source for Legendary Armor Precursors, and potentially other ingredients necessary for constructing the final armor, and possibly also other Legendary arms. Ideally they would announce alternative ways to earn them through things like open world content, but suggestions to that effect constantly get shouted down by the raiders too. They want to be able to exclude people from “their” rewards, AND they want those players to stop being upset about that, well I’m sorry, they can’t have both.

When people were calling for “hard content” was it truly for the difficult gameplay or the exclusivity? I feel that there are some really dedicated players who honestly want to be challenged to the utmost of their skills. On the other hand, I also feel there is another element of players who are intent on creating an exclusive “caste system” within the game. I think that the second category of players is what causes all the hard feelings about legendary armor being gated behind these raids. If this is truly going to be “hard content” a lot of people will try but only a few should succeed…. right?

I have no problem with players that genuinely enjoy difficult content, and perhaps want a pure “trophy” to celebrate that accomplishment. What I do have a problem with is players who insist that this trophy must come in the form of a weapon or armor skin that players might value without caring about it’s “trophy” value.

If you want difficult content, that’s great. If you want to use that difficult content to keep me away from a skin I want, then we have a problem.

It was for both. What many people posting here misunderstand is that many players do not want raids to have exclusive rewards, but every type of content to have exclusive rewards. And it’s really funny because all the arguments against it are only valid versus raids having exclusive rewards and not all types of content.

So, let’s stop pretending here, those who are asking for raids not to have exclusive rewards are not asking that at all, they are asking for no piece of content to have exclusive rewards, which leads the game back to being based on gold, a boring grindy mess.

Firstly, you’re the only one who is a true zealot on the “all items should be exclusive” end of things. Others have expressed an interest in that direction, but not to the extent you take it. You cannot claim that “many players” want what you want. And to be fair, I’m one of the few people pressing for all items to be available via a wide variety of means, more players are content with some items being available through exclusive means, so long as A. the items that they want are not exclusive, and/or B. The exclusive methods are ones which they feel comfortable doing. I just think “no items should be exclusive” is simpler because it makes both A and B irrelevant.

I never said there was a problem with raids having them. I think they should have exclusive raiding skins. Legendary armor is the problem.

Dashingsteel.3410:

I never said there was a problem with raids having them. I think they should have exclusive raiding skins. Legendary armor is the problem.

Oh my bad ok scratch that

Ohoni.6057:

Firstly, you’re the only one who is a true zealot on the “all items should be exclusive” end of things. Others have expressed an interest in that direction, but not to the extent you take it. You cannot claim that “many players” want what you want. And to be fair, I’m one of the few people pressing for all items to be available via a wide variety of means, more players are content with some items being available through exclusive means, so long as A. the items that they want are not exclusive, and/or B. The exclusive methods are ones which they feel comfortable doing. I just think “no items should be exclusive” is simpler because it makes both A and B irrelevant.

I don’t want all items to be exclusive but many of them to be exclusive, a great deal of them. And truly “many players” want what I want. You do understand that your A and B are both impossible if there are exclusives in the game.

Yes, progressing towards dungeon armors by doing dungeons, progressing in Silverwastes to get your lumi armor and gathering geodes to get your ambrite skins is fun. Doing the above to get any of the rewards is the same as having them on the TP, equal to a boring grindy mess.

If you enjoy playing CoF to earn Flame Legion armor is fun, and you believe that playing Silverwastes to earn Carapace armor is fun, then why would you not think that playing CoF for Carapace or Silverwastes for Flame Legion armor could be equally as fun?

That’s false. Fun has nothing to do with grind.

Fun, or the lack thereof, has EVERYTHING to do with grind. Doing the same thing a million times to earn something is no grind if you enjoy it every time. Doing it even once if you do not enjoy it is a grind. The grind is in the not enjoying it. Doing CoF Path 1 five times to earn a Flame Legion Coat can be a grind if you do not enjoy it, or running it 23 times to get a full set of armor might not be a grind if you really enjoy that dungeon.

The point is to find the things you enjoy, and do them, and find the things you don’t enjoy, and don’t do them. As they say, “find the job you love, and you’ll never work a day in your life.”

A fresh new universal currency will end up the same as gold/karma. A boring grindy mess.

Not if they balance it properly, and building on the lessons learned from previous currencies I believe they can do that.

Ohoni, I do think there are players who do want exclusive fancy things to denote that they are a more skillful player than those without the items.

Oh, there certainly are. The question is whether they deserve to get them. Do they deserve to be happy about having something that another player does not have, more than that other player deserves to be happy about having the item he wants? And if the reward is something that only, say, 20% of the players can earn, then do those 20% of players deserve to be happier because their items are exclusive, when that means that the other 80% is sadder because they do not have the thing that they wanted?

As I said, I’m fine with players receiving some sort of exclusive “trophy,” in the form of a title, or an Outfit, or a handheld bundle (like the torch given out at the Jubilee), or something to put in their home/guildhall, etc., but I do not believe that weapon or armor skins should qualify for that placement, because they have intrinsic worth, and trophies should only hold worth in being a trophy.

I don’t want all items to be exclusive but many of them to be exclusive, a great deal of them. And truly “many players” want what I want. You do understand that your A and B are both impossible if there are exclusives in the game.

You assert this, but I do not believe you are correct. Perhaps if you asked in the abstract “do you want exclusive items?,” you would get some amount of support, but if you were more specific about it “what if we took the item you wanted most, and put it behind content that you absolutely hate?” I doubt you’d get a lot of people agreeing with you.

Ohoni.6057:

If you enjoy playing CoF to earn Flame Legion armor is fun, and you believe that playing Silverwastes to earn Carapace armor is fun, then why would you not think that playing CoF for Carapace or Silverwastes for Flame Legion armor could be equally as fun?

Because A. it doesn’t fit thematically and B. it leads to easy mode grind (just like gold). Imagine this, someone manages to do CoF easy mode, why would he go to Silverwastes to get Carapace and not just stay doing what he was already doing (farming CoF) if it’s easier/faster to do so? There comes a time when a game needs to drag a player away of their comfort zone and if you look closely all living world releases do that. A company like Anet WANTS their newer releases, their newer zones and LS content to attract players.

Fun, or the lack thereof, has EVERYTHING to do with grind.

Grind is when you repeat things a lot of times. It has nothing to do with fun. There are lots of players who even say it out loud that they “love the grind”.

The point is to find the things you enjoy, and do them, and find the things you don’t enjoy, and don’t do them. As they say, “find the job you love, and you’ll never work a day in your life.”

That’s true. However there are limits to this for a video game that wants to expand. When they add new content they want that new content to have people running it even though running older content that you have more experience at running might be faster to get your gold. That’s why they ALWAYS make sure new rewards are obtained through new content, it’s ALWAYS been like this since release and I doubt it will ever change. It wouldn’t make sense from a game reward or even business stand point to offer the new content rewards from old content.

Not if they balance it properly, and building on the lessons learned from previous currencies I believe they can do that.

No they can’t. There is no way to balance a single universal currency.

Ohoni.6057:

You aren’t allowed to use the royal “we.” Perhaps you were talking about the game world’s population, but I was not. If we were to talk about the game’s population, there really isn’t much data to go on as to how many of them would be willing and able to stomach a WoW-style raid, but based on player trends, my personal assumption is that it would be a very small portion of the players. If long raids were something GW2 players actually wanted, then Fractals would have been much more popular than they actually are.

I think he used “we” as in we, the people living in the world of sense.

I advise you not to go to a 3rd world country, and tell starving children, that you have fought the good fight, and now they can have easier raids.