Guild Wars 2

I just watched the Revenant stream and all I can say is I am deeply concerned about the existing professions.
Revenant is designed using new tech, new animations and taking into consideration many lessons Anet learned after the game launched. It not only seems to be very fun to play, amazing to look at, but also skillfull and useful.

Writing this from a perspective of a necro player fills me with sadness. For instance, Mallyx legend seems like everything necro should have been and it seems to be taking high-end PvP meta into consideration, unlike necros. Existing professions, maybe excluding engie and ele, at least to me, feel extremely boring compared to what Anet has shown with the Revenant.

Could we see future reworks of exisitng professions to make them on par with Revenant or should everyone just reroll the new profession on day one and forget about the past?

Link to the stream for those who missed it: http://www.twitch.tv/guildwars2/b/627401366

What everybody thinks? Do people share my concerns?

EDIT: Clarification – this is not a discussion about power creep. Revenant won’t be stronger in numerical terms, Anet wouldn’t let that happen.
What it has high potential to be is being superior to other classes mechanical-, gameplay- and animation-wise and this is what this topic is all about. Why play a dagger necro spamming ‘1’ 90% of the time if you can play revenant that does balanced damage, but in a way that is ten times cooler and more fun.

leman.7682:

Could we see future reworks of exisitng professions to make them on par with Revenant or should everyone just reroll the new profession on day one and forget about the past?

Specializations.

You have no idea how other classes are going to be reworked naimly stab. If its so easy to make for an revz and they talked about rebalncing all stab ability its not that big of a leap that we will see stab become more of a trick of small but often windows more then the super long windows. So simply put your looking at this class from the point of view of the game now and not the game after revz getting put in.

Test.8734:

leman.7682:

Could we see future reworks of exisitng professions to make them on par with Revenant or should everyone just reroll the new profession on day one and forget about the past?

Specializations.

So you mean yes, old professions land in the dustbin.

Test.8734:

leman.7682:

Could we see future reworks of exisitng professions to make them on par with Revenant or should everyone just reroll the new profession on day one and forget about the past?

Specializations.

How do specializations solve the problem? From what we know, they take something away from a profession and give something new…

They don’t add cool animations and effects, they don’t make badly designed skills/weapons like necro axe/dagger, ranger sword/axe or warrior rifle good out of the sudden. Why? Because these weapons are based on simple tech like spam one to do dmg, press 2 to knock back, etc.

Not solving the problem.

Test.8734:

leman.7682:

Could we see future reworks of exisitng professions to make them on par with Revenant or should everyone just reroll the new profession on day one and forget about the past?

Specializations.

I don’t disagree, but it isn’t enough. So far each class gets one “specialization”, and those seem to be thematic changes as well as mechanic changes and/or additions. Its possible that specializations will be strictly superior to their bases, too; especially if they are supersets.

Perhaps existing classes shouldn’t or can’t be updated to compete with the revenant or their own specializations, but what definitely could happen is a second specialization that keeps the same theme as the base class and layers on mechanics changes. If the announced specializations are like taking a second profession, then this kind of specialization would be like taking the first profession as your second profession as well.

Of course, it is possible that the base classes will be updated, making them something like a default specialization.

(As a disclaimer, I absolutely intend to main the Revenant, with two characters on every class, regardless of its balance state, as I’m in love with the animations, concepts, and theme of the class).

The Revenant skills clearly have a lot of power. The class appears to have access to every mechanic plus the kitchen sink.

I didn’t see much balance commentary when Jalis and the Hammer were being discussed. Frankly, I’m not seeing a huge issue with anything in this section. Hammer is a beautifully designed kit. Its projectile block could be an issue, but overall, it appears to be within reason. Jalis is well done and brings a good balance of strengths that could synergize with just about anything.

The Mace/Axe weapon set and Mallyx were the point where the OP cries started, and it’s easy to see why. Huge amounts of Resistance (a powerful boon), plus two leaps (one for the weapon, one for the legend), pulls and displacement, and extreme condition pressure work together to make something downright scary.

Stability on Dodge was another clear point of contention. That could be ridiculous, though it is important to keep in mind that it a single stack of Stab in accordance with the Stab rework. That could very well balance it on its own, though it may require adjustment. This really sounds like something that should be a Grandmaster trait to me – whether minor or major.

Stun break on Legend swap seems absolutely ridiculous, especially for a Minor trait.

With that said….

A big balancing feature of the Revenant is that they have to manage two resources – energy (legend skills and weapon skills) and cooldowns (weapon skills only). When coupled with the existence of upkeep skills, there is a lot of resource pressure. Yes, the Thief has initiative, but this only dictates their weapon skills, so there is no contention between the two halves of their bar like there is with the Revenant.

Perhaps this will not be enough to balance the Revenant at its initial state, but it DOES add an extra level of balance for Anet to utilize in trying to bring this profession in line with others. When dealing with resources and cooldowns, weapon skills should be stronger than others, and when dealing with a resource that causes each utility/heal/elite skill to compete with eachother for usage, they should be stronger than the individual cooldowns of a standard profession. Anet, however, gets to decide between raising costs or lowering effectiveness of a skill when balancing it, and that will be a HUGE part in dictating how the Revenant class plays.

Another thing to keep in mind is that they do have fewer skills than a standard profession. They have 5 weapon skills, 2 healing skills, 2 elite skills, and 6 utility skills, for a total of 15 skills. The current profession with the smallest pool is the Warrior (10 weapon skills, 1 healing, 1 elite, 3 utility, one burst, for a total of 16). The loss is that the Legend swaps are technically not effective skills in themselves, much like Attunements aren’t – unless you trait them for swap effects. They do nothing but change the bar. It’s a small point of balance, but it is a point of balance all the same.

From one perspective its a condi build for the class just like every other class that has a condi build option. But we will have to wait and see what specialisations will bring to the game play. And what the other legends provide

I’m sorry I can’t point you to the specific quote but they have said that some abilities in existing professions – not just the new specs – are going to be reworked to take advantage of the new tech.

Relax

Warrior is still meta because of Phalanx, the trible blast doesn’t cut it.
Mesmer/Guardian is still master of reflects, the too far away from player wall doesn’t cut it and is on a raher weak weapon.

I see no problems in PvE.

We are forgetting that Mallyx stance also inflicts many conditions on himself and some like confusion stacks and the weakness from the heal can be pretty bad. He needs resistance or else he would get very weak (so boon strips would work great against him). There is also energy cost, it doesn’t seem that he can maintain a skill (like the hammer rings) and use other skills for long. He also doesn’t have weapon swap so he is predictable, especially with themed legends and in terms of attacks that he can spam (weapon skills) not versatile.

Duke Blackrose.4981:

Stun break on Legend swap seems absolutely ridiculous, especially for a Minor trait.

Or that stun break on dwarf elite.

As a Necromancer, I’m not concerned. My love for the Necromancer profession will never expire. I’ve overcome many challenges I’m sure I’ll overcome the Revenant. #ComeAtMeBro.

I want them to drop it as is in the game.

Maybe people will stop nitpicking the existing class strengths when something completely new steamrolls them.

Test.8734:

leman.7682:

Could we see future reworks of exisitng professions to make them on par with Revenant or should everyone just reroll the new profession on day one and forget about the past?

Specializations.

Shouldn’t, logically, base classes be on par with base classes and specializations on par with specializations?

This OP has a legitimate point. Nearly every single skill shown in the preview today had waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay more effects, more conditions, more utility, more combinations, just more everything than most any single skill among the original eight classes.

That said, I would much prefer they add to the original classes, bringing them up rather than bringing the Revenant down. Most of the vanilla class skills are really binary, their skills have some combination of effects that you just activate and then wait to activate again. Rubi even said during the preview livestream that these skills just felt better than those of the base classes!

But the question is, will ANet do something about it with the base vanilla content, or will they just add it with specializations and write off the original eight classes as relics? In which case the revenant will always have a usability advantage.

I’m still people are thinking of promos as too much.

When they reveal the each spec’s details, I expect the same “Oh my, over powered!!! NEW META!!!” response.

I think it’s probably new toy syndrome as much as anything given the skills they’ve shown off. It’s not like most or even many of their skills are built around some entirely new paradigm of skill design, they’re just some different mixtures of what we have. Balance is always tough to get right out of the box so I’m sure they’ll be broken some way or another then quickly fixed.

leman.7682:

How do specializations solve the problem? From what we know, they take something away from a profession and give something new…

Yep, “give something new”, so…

leman.7682:

They don’t add cool animations and effects

…They can very well add those things.

Test.8734:

Yep, “give something new”, so…

Are you going to compare a whole new class to e.g an offhand weapon for a mesmer?

rotten.9753:

Test.8734:

Yep, “give something new”, so…

Are you going to compare a whole new class to e.g an offhand weapon for a mesmer?

No, I’m going to compare a whole new profession to an old profession with reworked mechanics and new weapons.

hammer rev new wvw meta inc

I wonder how many baseline auto attacks skills are going to become 100% projectile finishers.

Test.8734:

rotten.9753:

Test.8734:

Yep, “give something new”, so…

Are you going to compare a whole new class to e.g an offhand weapon for a mesmer?

No, I’m going to compare a whole new profession to an old profession with reworked mechanics and new weapons.

The only reworked mechanics are the class mechanics, and only additions are new utilities and one new weapon.

So each class will still be made up, largely, of its original skills.

So the question of whether or not old weapons, old mechanics, and old abilities will be up to snuff when compared to the new ones is completely legitimate. Unless you are okay with seeing every single ranger use a staff and druid utilities, because none of the older weapons and utilities measure up to them.

Test.8734:

No, I’m going to compare a whole new profession to an old profession with reworked mechanics and new weapons.

Reworked mechanics…? Do you really believe they would rework 8 professions when we have to wait for a small “shaving” balance patch for ~6 months?

Revenant looks like necro 1.0

so new stability will be like guardians aegis but stackable? lol.

Flumek.9043:

Revenant looks like necro 1.0

Yepp it is frustrating that they get all those toys that should have been the necros but as mallyx revenant, i wouldnt want to fight a condition necro (or any boonhate build). Apart from resistence they have no way to deal with conditions. A good corrupt boon/dark path will destroy them.

Ragnarox.9601:

so new stability will be like guardians aegis but stackable? lol.

yeap seems guards go into the trashcan soon….zerk\rev\ele\war only…

WE all know that anet doesn’ t know the concept of balance.
Look at ranger status after 2 years and half…simply hilarious.
And ravenant..is litterally too op.
I won’ t buy the expansion.
I’ m done

Muchacho.2390:

Yepp it is frustrating that they get all those toys that should have been the necros but as mallyx revenant, i wouldnt want to fight a condition necro (or any boonhate build). Apart from resistence they have no way to deal with conditions. A good corrupt boon/dark path will destroy them.

Well, as long as they are in Mallyx yes. But a Mallyx/Jalis build can just swap to Jalis to cleanse condis with their heal.

Bhawb.7408:

Muchacho.2390:

Yepp it is frustrating that they get all those toys that should have been the necros but as mallyx revenant, i wouldnt want to fight a condition necro (or any boonhate build). Apart from resistence they have no way to deal with conditions. A good corrupt boon/dark path will destroy them.

Well, as long as they are in Mallyx yes. But a Mallyx/Jalis build can just swap to Jalis to cleanse condis with their heal.

Thats why you strip the boon or cc them until the boon falls off letting them get hit by the full burst of the condis or do both. There is a risk to applying so many condis to themselves let them stack it as much as they can and then just interrupt the hell out of them so they just tick down while flopping about. If they cant manage the condis i can see a revenant gathering to many and as soon as that boon drops of they will explode. I can also see lyssa runes becoming very popular with them or anyone else in the expac I am going to start stocking up on them.

Well what annoys me most is that Mallyx’ skills are “upogrades” to Necro skills, or necro-skills with a little twist. His ult is basically a 0-CD-upkeep-selftargeted epidemic, he has a 0 cd activatable “signet of plague” that gives resitance, too, he buffs himself for every condition (noncleansing selfbuffing well of power) and his heal is basically consume conditions (although I’m not sure if he cleanses conditions on that, either. Jalis’ heal does, though). What I’m really hoping for is a mass-rebalance, or at least finally a rebalance of conditions in PvE… why make Mallyx such a beastly condition-flinger if it will be useless half of the game?

I just pray that Necro get Marjory’s GS attackstring as their GS-1 (and obviously something that will make them a good fit in Dungeonruns), cause otherwise I’ll be REALLY sad X)

Mirdave.2014:

Elites with no cooldown (with the exception of the energy cost)? Is this fair?

It is absolutely fair if they’re balanced around this. Again, we’re talking about a profession with only 5 weapon skills. They have a much higher emphasis on their right bar than other professions.

Bhawb.7408:

Muchacho.2390:

Yepp it is frustrating that they get all those toys that should have been the necros but as mallyx revenant, i wouldnt want to fight a condition necro (or any boonhate build). Apart from resistence they have no way to deal with conditions. A good corrupt boon/dark path will destroy them.

Well, as long as they are in Mallyx yes. But a Mallyx/Jalis build can just swap to Jalis to cleanse condis with their heal.

Fair enough but if you get overwhelmend by conditions a 3 condition removel on a 30 second cooldown will not save you. I think Mallyx revenants will hate condition necros even more then condition engies.

Mirdave.2014:

Elites with no cooldown (with the exception of the energy cost)? Is this fair?

do you know what is a thief?

Simon.3794:

Mirdave.2014:

Elites with no cooldown (with the exception of the energy cost)? Is this fair?

do you know what is a thief?

Did you know that Thief utilities and elites use cooldowns, not Initiative?

look at those traits, WTF!>!>!>!>!>!>!> a minor trait that gives 2.5 seconds of stability every time they do a dodge roll? LOL i can’t even freakin buy stability for the necro. JESUS how can this be possible. SOrry going to destroy the meta and create a rev wow world. ANET are you looking at this and realizing on how it is going to restrict class to ele, rev, war, and mesmer? I mean all the rest are useless compared to this class. I am failing to see how you thought, hey, this is a good idea, lets create a superclass, and give him everything all the class are lacking, and then stick it in the meta without fixing existing classes. But hey, its really not about a good product, its about making money.

Gryph.8237:

look at those traits, WTF!>!>!>!>!>!>!> a minor trait that gives 2.5 seconds of stability every time they do a dodge roll? LOL i can’t even freakin buy stability for the necro. JESUS how can this be possible. SOrry going to destroy the meta and create a rev wvw world.

Stability is being redesigned in to a stacking condition, meaning they get 1 stack of stability which will last 2.5 seconds and may block a single control skill during that duration.

Gryph.8237:

look at those traits, WTF!>!>!>!>!>!>!> a minor trait that gives 2.5 seconds of stability every time they do a dodge roll? LOL i can’t even freakin buy stability for the necro. JESUS how can this be possible. SOrry going to destroy the meta and create a rev wvw world.

They are completely changing stability just so a trait like that could be potentially balanced. Time will tell as they will probably drop the stability update on us before the expansion to give the players time to learn how to play with the change in mechanics, and to try to adjust all the stability granting skill/abilities in the game.

even if it blocks one cc, it is still 100000 times better than a class with no or limited access to stability. a one button/rapidly refreshed, and stacked push cc cancel. it is op.

Gryph.8237:

even if it blocks one cc, it is still 100000 times better than a class with no or limited access to stability. a one button/rapidly refreshed, and stacked push cc cancel. it is op.

You expend a dodge in order to get 2.5s of stab , 1 stack, . If you’re rapidly dodging and expending damage mitigation that’s kind of dumb. You’ll be out of dodges to avoid whatever comes after it. With the rebalance, skills like Foot in the grave for necro, and SYG on Guard, Balanced Stance on warrior, Earth Armor on ele, are going to get touched so they provide 3-5 stacks at least. With this new Stability Rework, offhand pistol thieves are going to be pretty useful.

well… it looks like the rev is gonna kick a lot of classes into the trashbin….

foot in the grave, yah, a skill that is hardly taken, and a grandmaster trait that is not only dependent on a refresh rate, but the presence of DS health, and not present at the beginning of pvp matches. I still think anet had shown a tremendous amount of bias regarding specific classes while slow trashing other classes.

Duke Blackrose.4981:

Simon.3794:

Mirdave.2014:

Elites with no cooldown (with the exception of the energy cost)? Is this fair?

do you know what is a thief?

Did you know that Thief utilities and elites use cooldowns, not Initiative?

did you know that thief weapon skill use initiative?

There’s several skills that are not very used or that have mechanics to be balanced. Those could be reworked with the new mechanics and systems developed for HoT.

There will be also extra weapon and skill introduced with each specizalization.

Don’t think it will all be added just for revenants.

Remember how Torment has spread over time to several professions.

Simon.3794:

Duke Blackrose.4981:

Simon.3794:

Mirdave.2014:

Elites with no cooldown (with the exception of the energy cost)? Is this fair?

do you know what is a thief?

Did you know that Thief utilities and elites use cooldowns, not Initiative?

did you know that thief weapon skill use initiative?

Yes, yes I did. That was not the question however. He asked whether or not an Elite that has no cooldown is fair. There is no precedent for that.

Duke Blackrose.4981:

Simon.3794:

Duke Blackrose.4981:

Simon.3794:

Mirdave.2014:

Elites with no cooldown (with the exception of the energy cost)? Is this fair?

do you know what is a thief?

Did you know that Thief utilities and elites use cooldowns, not Initiative?

did you know that thief weapon skill use initiative?

Yes, yes I did. That was not the question however. He asked whether or not an Elite that has no cooldown is fair. There is no precedent for that.

do you think weapon skill has no cooldown is fair compare to other classes?
that will be your answer.

Simon.3794:

Duke Blackrose.4981:

Simon.3794:

Duke Blackrose.4981:

Simon.3794:

Mirdave.2014:

Elites with no cooldown (with the exception of the energy cost)? Is this fair?

do you know what is a thief?

Did you know that Thief utilities and elites use cooldowns, not Initiative?

did you know that thief weapon skill use initiative?

Yes, yes I did. That was not the question however. He asked whether or not an Elite that has no cooldown is fair. There is no precedent for that.

do you think weapon skill has no cooldown is fair compare to other classes?
that will be your answer.

You… wait, what?

Did you mean: “Do you think it is fair, them having weapon skills which have no cooldowns, to compare them to another class which does?” (Or possibly, “to another class which does not?”)

That’s the best I can come up with, and while it makes sense grammatically I still can’t see how it makes any sense in the context of the conversation.

Conncept.7638:

Simon.3794:

Duke Blackrose.4981:

Simon.3794:

Duke Blackrose.4981:

Simon.3794:

Mirdave.2014:

Elites with no cooldown (with the exception of the energy cost)? Is this fair?

do you know what is a thief?

Did you know that Thief utilities and elites use cooldowns, not Initiative?

did you know that thief weapon skill use initiative?

Yes, yes I did. That was not the question however. He asked whether or not an Elite that has no cooldown is fair. There is no precedent for that.

do you think weapon skill has no cooldown is fair compare to other classes?
that will be your answer.

You… wait, what? Do you English?

Did you mean: “Do you think it is far, them having weapon skills which have no cooldowns, to compare them to another class which does?” (Or possibly, “to another class which does not?”)

That’s the best I can come up with, and while it makes sense grammatically I still can’t see how it makes any sense in the context of the conversation.

I asked whether or not weapon skills that have no cooldown is fair
and that will be your answer.

A lot of that is going to depend on how well they balanced the energy system. If skills cost too little for effect then that will be a problem.