Guild Wars 2

Mirta.5029:

MauricioCezar.2673:

First of all my friend, study design, game design, or narative design before yelling “This is bad design!!”.

Only because you heard this expression somwhere, don’t means you have what it takes to evaluate something as bad design or not.

As I see (In my 9 years of carreer as game designer), this is a a interesting narrative aspect, that brings much more in-depth to the world game lore in game itself, and not outside of it (Wiki/books/etcetera).

Another point to note, is that this is indeedly the only way to make it works. maybe we even hear him in the end of the story when we face mordremoth itself, but if the lore is fair enoguh in game, we as other races should not understand the dragon words, by the simply fact that its a non-translated language, so should not ever be understandable by any other race.

What you are asking, is basically the same as ask that the walls and graes in tyria written in new krytan to be rewritten in english for example. This game has a big way to immerse us in tyria world and lore, and I assure you my friend : This is good design.

I am finishing game design this year and it is most definitely bad design in my eyes. You’re making select players lose on the narrative for not leveling a class that’s supposed to be for cosmetic purposes only. Effectively you’re excluding 4/5ths of your audience from the narrative that you designed.

With just how much of season 2 of the LS was sylvari centric and with sylvari getting exclusive narrative lines now I am just sure that Anet favour sylvari over anything else.

Also you saying that people can’t criticize design if they don’t have a degree is the same as saying “you can’t criticize cooking if you’re not the cook!”. Your customers are always free to critique you.

I’d suggest you study harder then. This is called “replay value” and is present in a lot of games, new and classic.

IF anyone loved the lore THAT much they’d want to see it from the aspect of many races.

There’s no reason to not roll a Sylvari. They have an amazing starting PS imo. There’s so much info packed into it. It’s my favorite tbh. Probably why I only roll Sylvari anymore. xD

I guess as Sylvari I should just end my post with “neener neener”

Mirta.5029:

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

Mirta.5029:

not leveling a class that’s supposed to be for cosmetic purposes only.

And that’s where you’re wrong. Different races aren’t just for different looks, they are there for different experiences. Otherwise there wouldn’t be racial skills and race specific story. If you never play a norn, you will never get to play the personal story that comes with it either. Same goes for this.

this isn’t race specific story. This is “lose out if you’re specifically not a sylvari”. Because no other races get anything special.

It’s just voice acting. If anything, a Sylvari might be around to give you the gist of what they heard. And even if they don’t, it’s another narrative angle to perceive the story from by shrouding parts of it in mystery for the player to speculate and piece together.

That said, you’re not losing out. You can still pick up a Sylvari character and hear the lines yourself.

What you’re seeing as a game design issue really isn’t because the game isn’t prohibiting you from experiencing it. It’s not really a problem from a narrative viewpoint either since it’s meant to be experienced differently but all the puzzle pieces will be filled to complete the same picture just in a different order.

The complaint brought about by the OP is the lack of being able to hear the lines spoken by the voice actor themselves to which I can just say ‘meh’. So many ways to alleviate that problem…

Leo G.4501:

I’d suggest you study harder then. This is called “replay value” and is present in a lot of games, new and classic.

it’s called race favoritism really. There are other ways to add replay value, without shoehorning people into specific races. Ergo bad game design.

Mirta.5029:

Rhomulos.2089:

Mirta.5029:

MauricioCezar.2673:

Mirta.5029:

Ashen.2907:

So, should all of the order and race story elements have been shoehorned into my human Whispers character play through?

nah, I just believe that if you’re giving one race an exclusive quirk, others should get their own. Else only one race has a unique experience making it only worth it to play as that race and that race alone, as it’s extra lines and not changed story in general. Meaning currently sylvari is the only race with the full personal story experience. Which is wrong.

Every post you do contradicts yourself. Weren’t you saying this a few posts ago:

if I have to race switch in order to live trough the game’s full story and fully understand it then yes, it’s bad design. Your player should be treated equal no matter he is an altoholic or not.

So how you now say that it should be fair to every race have its own story specific content (What would make you obligated to roll all 5 races in order to live trough the game’s full story and fully understand it) ?

if everyone is exclusive then nobody is exclusive. Currently every race as a predefined amount of missions that are different from each other. Meaning it’s satisfying no matter which one you roll.
However if the story is the same for everyone, except for one race and the difference is more lines rather than a different story, then the only way to experience the full story line is to play that specific race.

As far as we know, the story will actually be different for Sylvari players. This means that it will benefit us to play both Sylvari and non-Sylvari throught he same instances, adding replayability.

I do hope that the story for other 4 races won’t be identical though. I mean at the last Season 2 cutscene we got to see charr going witchhunting for example. My point is that if sylvari-non sylvari stories are different, then so should be asura -norn – human – sylvari and charr.

Chimming in again here.

The thing about making unique story aspects for things like this is that, these unique portions of story has to make sense AND fulfill some purpose for the story. You then have to wonder, is having different story branches for Norn, Human, Asura and Charr, story branches that all differ from each other, of any purpose? Why would there be anything at this point in the story that needs to be exclusive to Norn and only Norn? What purpose does it serve? And most importantly: does it not make sense to include it in the other race branches?

The thing is here, it makes absolute sense for Sylvari to be the only ones to hear Mordremoth. That isn’t bad game design, that’s common sense. And one thing a good story holds strong to is common sense. If your reader begins to question things that are common sense (“So if Mordremoth has been calling to the Sylvari all this time, and my Norn can hear him in the fights in HoT, why was my Norn never able to hear Mordremoth before?”) then you’ve failed to keep a comprehensible narrative that will only get worse with more mistakes.

Leo G.4501:

Why would there be anything at this point in the story that needs to be exclusive to Norn and only Norn? What purpose does it serve? And most importantly: does it not make sense to include it in the other race branches?

because they have a different upbringing and a different worldview.

Did you notice how it was only charr that voted to be very aggressive towards all sylvari? They’re insinuating a witch hunt and it would make sense for them to branch off there.

Humans are big believers of Gods. Do you really think that they wouldn’t go off to ask for help?

Asura are machine based. You think they would branch off to try and invent something?

See? Different races, different perspectives, even if there is a sole one goal.

This is conceptually brilliant and goes to show that Leah Hoyer can have a positive affect on the writing and the story(not that I thought she wouldn’t). It’s downright semi-chilling hearing Mordremoth ‘talk’ to your Sylvari character, and I can’t wait until I play my Sylvari through HoT(after my human character of course).

Mirta.5029:

it’s called race favoritism really.

No it isn’t, you are really grasping at straws now.

In fact, they should have taken this further, some story for revenants to explain their presence when you can then turn around and take the revenant in pre-HoT stories.

But no explanation on that. Just accept it and move on. Disappointing really. But with that in mind, I love what they are doing with the Sylvari and Mordremoth.

In fact, from what I gather there isn’t any new story elements, its just flavor text. A corrupted sylvari calls for mordremoth’s help, and:

1. Sylvari hear mordemoth say “ok here you go,” meanwhile
2. Everyone else hears a mighty dragon’s roar, and then…

reinforcements appear. Is it really questinable what hapened? In one case we heard a verbal response that basically mounted to an ok dude, while everyone else heard a roar before the reinforcements arrived.

All it was was flavor text. No story, no spoilers, just a sure here you go. You really aren’t missing out on anything really.

This is totally awesome! Great design decision. If you are upset about it, just create a Sylvari. They are cute, have a great story, and glow in the dark. What more can you ask for?

In an ideal world, all races would be more different in their approaches through the story. When you compare GW2 and GW1, races were “universalised” somewhat for gameplay reasons. Hence why Norn and Charr are joining Orders so seamlessly, which makes little sense. Yet it would have made more work to separate everything out and write for 5 distinct races every story season.

Having the Sylvari attuned to Mordremoth in such a way is outstanding design and I’m sure we’d all welcome more individuality and flavour between races, however resources are finite. You can call it bad design, but in reality this is a need to manage what is achieveable for the design team, the writers, the VA etc.
This is about the Sylvari, so it also makes sense to channel the focus into them.

I have no doubt when we come to Jormag, Norns will have exclusive story flavours as well. And perhaps Asurans when we go off to fight Primordus. If focussing one race at a time is the best way for them to manage it, then so be it.

Personally I welcome this direction they are going in.

Mirta.5029:

Leo G.4501:

Why would there be anything at this point in the story that needs to be exclusive to Norn and only Norn? What purpose does it serve? And most importantly: does it not make sense to include it in the other race branches?

because they have a different upbringing and a different worldview.

Did you notice how it was only charr that voted to be very aggressive towards all sylvari? They’re insinuating a witch hunt and it would make sense for them to branch off there.

Humans are big believers of Gods. Do you really think that they wouldn’t go off to ask for help?

Asura are machine based. You think they would branch off to try and invent something?

See? Different races, different perspectives, even if there is a sole one goal.

And? Asura’s inventions wouldn’t be exclusive to Asura, they would invent things for the Pact to use which include all races. The Human gods aren’t here so would that become a purposeful story point? The Charr may seem aggressive toward the Sylvari but they are a part of the Pact and soldiers that act without or against orders are considered insubordinate and thus punished and even if they take this route, what excludes Charr aggression from any others who feel the same?

FYI, I’m not against creating more unique story branches for races…on the contrary. They should even make more unique flavorisms for the profession you choose and even the crafting skills you have. But what I’m getting at is you have to make them purposeful and you can’t make them purposeful if we’re going to complain at every turn that things are exclusive to such and such.

Regarding the topic at hand, just because this ONE very specific flavorism is unique to the Sylvari story doesn’t mean there will only ever be such interesting additions for Sylvari and no one else or that this is the only instance where the choices you made for your character could have any sort of impact.

You already missed out on parts of the story if you didn’t play every race, seeing how the first 20 levels of the personal story are entirely based on your race. You missed hearing different voice acting and seeing different angles of the story from those as well.

I don’t see this as any different.

You should be happy that at least Mordremoth has a voice.

Zhaitan spoke as much as Chell did in the Portal series.

(And Portal also happens to be something that Nolan North is famous for)

AESOkami.1072:

You should be happy that at least Mordremoth has a voice.

Zhaitan spoke as much as Chell did in the Portal series.

(And Portal also happens to be something that Nolan North is famous for)

Who also did voice work for my favorite game of all time, Last of Us

It’s been stated sylvari characters will have a different experience than other characters. that’s because guild wars 2 by design is very alt-friendly, as well.

The sylvari players will be missing out on certain aspects of the story because of the way the story will treat them, and as such other races will not experience exactly what the sylvari will.

if you think suddenly all the races should be able to hear the voice of a dragon who CREATED the sylvari, then you’re a fool.

also isn’t Nolan north also the voice of Trahearne? sooo….

As somebody who doesn’t have any sylvari at max level, I can honesty say I completely support this. Why? Because it adds that much more to the immersion of the game. Its already been established that sylvari are Mordremoth babies, it thus makes complete sense that they’d be able to comprehend the Elder Dragon while others would not. Have we forgotten that a number of sylvari were also driven insane by the aforementioned Elder Dragon’s voice? Wouldn’t that make sense if everybody else just heard a terrifying roar? Really the only two options that make sense in this context are either nobody can understand Mordremoth or only the sylvari can. Again, I absolutely love that this is going to be a feature in the expansion.

10/10 for Anet sticking to its lore.

vanderwolf.7084:

also isn’t Nolan north also the voice of Trahearne? sooo….

Nope, that’s Matthew Brenher. North is just the human male PC and now Mordy.

I play without sound 9 out of 10 times and even I think this is a great idea that will make me want to play with sound in HoT again.

Great detail that makes sense, very much appreciated.

Did you know that the Charr have unique dialogues in both Divinity’s Reach and (especially) Ebonhawke/Fields of Ruin? The Humans do as well.

Did you know that Asura have atypical conversations throughout Metrica Province AND Caledon Forest?

Did you know that female Norn hear certain voiced lines that males don’t?

Races (and genders) are different, and sentient characters react to them differently based on personal prejudices and politics. That’s called “world building”. The Dragon Age and Elder Scrolls franchises, for example, are famous for it.

It’s awesome! I remember hearing a voice responding to the Mordrem Guard and thinking it was strange because I never heard other dragons speaking. But I was on my sylvari so now it makes sense!

If you don’t like missing content, get a sylvari! This is great stuff!

Since its Nolan North doing the vocals for it. Also as I am a Sylvari…

Can I swap sides and join Nolan… I rather be allied with our Lord and Savior Deadpool

I think that’s the way it is. and should be, beside, haha Sylvari dont get to hear the dragon! :P

i think this is the dreams with in dreams design, you cant get to hear everything!

Sylent.3165:

I think it’s a fantastic idea because it makes sense.

Do you really think the plant dragon that has 0 control over any other should be called to it to be it’s minion? It’s a great idea what they are doing. Luckily my revenant will be a sylvari and I’ll get to experience it. In the future in sure each dragon will be connected with the other races as well. I give anet an A+ for it.

Can already imagine Kralky saying: “Here, Kitty Kitty Kitty!”

Tinfoil hat theory:

Completing the story grants non-sylvari a translator item as part of the plot (so that everyone can hear his evil speech before the last boss fight) and they can use that when they replay it for challenge achievements.

latinkuro.7304:

From gamespot article, so Nolan North is voicing Mordremoth but.....

Source: http://www.gamespot.com/articles/destiny-uncharted-actor-nolan-north-voicing-guild-/1100-6430811/

" What’s especially interesting about Mordremoth is that *the only player race who can hear him are the Sylvari characters.* The game’s *other races only hear dragon-like noises.* It’s a nice touch that fans will no doubt recognize and appreciate."

This is BAD design !

The idea that such a huge voice actor lines can ONLy be heard by a single race is LUDICROUS !

I understand you want to give this race something unique but this is offensive to the rest of the player base that cares about the story.

I don’t wanna be forced to play a sylvari to actually get the full experience and intent of the story !!!

*I hope this is NOT how it works, if it ain’t you need to clarify this very very QUICKLY !!!*

I honestly don’t understand your problem with this? The story of heart of thorns is to do with Sylvari betraying the pact and giving into mordy’s call... They are going to be going through with an eternal struggle. Saying its a bad design is seriously laughable. It’s a great one it’s giving uniqueness to a race that will probably be repeated in future expansion packs to other races.

It’s not major game breaking it’s not like you have to make a sylvari or you cannot finish the story. Not everyone will care most people will just want to kill the dam oversized plant dragon (I will be playing through on a sylvari alt just to hear it) but in all seriousness how hard is it to make an extra character and play through the story? I always play through living world stuff with multiple characters.

Instead of pulling your hair out over a little flavour feature look forward to the game or start levelling a sylvari or hell just wait till wiki has quotes or someone has uploaded the clips on YouTube. I mean it’s going to happen no matter what anyone says

Oh and P.s. This isn’t offensive to other players in anyway? Have you polled this at all? Didn’t really think so.

I think this is a pretty decent idea. It does make sense that only Sylvari’s can hear him.

My main is not sylvari but got a few alts that are, but i like the idea.

I think it’s a nice idea. My main is a norn, but it will make it fun to play on my sylvari, too, for the little details like that.

Eeeh… I played beta and the only thing Mordremoth was saying was something like “kill them, bring them to me, blabla I am big bad dragon bla bla”

I think it is safe to say you won’t miss anything super important. Dragons don’t talk to their enemies. Zhaitan also didn’t say a word… and his minions were all like “kill, DEVOUR! Zhaitan will eat you blabla”….nothing special xD

Good story design is to keep to the story. Obviously. And that is why the Sylvari only can hear the dragons voice, because Modremoth in the end, doesn’t care about the other races. Sylvari is his children, is minions so it would be weird if he was to speak to anyone else. It might be a bid irritating that you have to re-roll as a Sylvari, but this expansion is about the Sylvari and where they come from.

This is actually something upsetting people? Really? We’ve known for awhile now that Sylvari can hear what Mordy is saying when he roars and growls. Also, from the Beta stuff it really doesn’t give more insight or anything- it’s just Mordy giving orders to his minions. Sure further into the story he may talk to the player and whatnot, but I don’t see it as much different than the fact that playing through the different races in the core game gave you a different experience and perspective on the events playing out.

Stick a Sylvari NPC in the story who can talk to non-sylvari players to give them an idea of what’s going on.

Sicarius.4639:

Stick a Sylvari NPC in the story who can talk to non-sylvari players to give them an idea of what’s going on.

You gave me an Idea:

• We get a Sylvari Sidekick NPC that translates for us:

Modremoth: RAAAWRRR! GRRRRRMPF! AHHHHRG!
Player: “What did he say?”
NPC: “RAAAWRRR! GRRRRRMPF! AHHHHRG!”
Player: -.-
NPC: “Sorry, was just a golden opportunity! He said: Sneak up from behind and kill them”
Player: …

I would much rather hear nothing but RAWR than constantly hear canach go “It says it wants all the minions to attack us now.”

I hope we human get a new dragon when Elona or Cantha gets remade and we only hear what it says. Even Norn only hearing Jormag and everyone else hearing Growls.

Yumiko Ishida.3769:

I hope we human get a new dragon when Elona or Cantha gets remade and we only hear what it says. Even Norn only hearing Jormag and everyone else hearing Growls.

I think you miss the point that sylvari are born from the dragon, so they are techically the same.

Do you really think that humans, norns, or whatever else are made out, or born from a dragon?

I find this awesome for two reasons. 1, it holds up to lore. 2, it sets a precedent.

Lore’s important, obviously, because it adds immersion to the game and ties you to your character more. It IS an RPG, after all, so treating all races the same even when the lore states that sylvari are freaking dragon minions would be the “bad design”, imo. If this wasn’t a thing I’d actually be pretty annoyed, so it’s nice to see that Anet cares about the lore of GW2 and ties it in to actual gameplay.

But what’s even sweeter about this is that it sets a precedent for future expansions if we assume one elder dragon = one expansion.

Maybe the next expansion has us facing Kralkatorrik down in the Crystal Desert or somewhere in Ascalon. Perhaps there will be a more charr-centric storyline? Maybe human-centric if we find some way to finally bust down into Elona? Perhaps it’s revealed that your human PC is actually of Elonian descent and you must lead your people (maybe the Pact or whatever faction exists at that time, if the Pact doesn’t survive) through the Crystal Desert, and Alain’s “prophecy” wasn’t actually the ramblings of a crazy man?

What about Jormag? Maybe only a norn character can damage Jormag’s tooth in Hoelbrak and other characters won’t even get that part of the story. Maybe they can see the Spirits of the Wild as they’re marching back into the Far Shiverpeaks, but to all the other races, they’re invisible?

I’m sure there could be asura-only stuff when dealing with Primordus, but I can’t think of any specifics because I don’t play short people. Sorry for being a bookah!

But my point is: the really cool thing, for me, about what Anet’s doing with the sylvari is that they haven’t removed race-specific features from the table. With HoT, they’re making it so your race actually matters and impacts the story in a pretty significant degree and it sets a precedent for such features to come back in future content. Remember how the second part of the PS was your character being a generic soldier-dude/dudette and how it threw all your character’s part 1 race-specific dialogue and mannerisms out the window? I can’t be the only one who hated that.

More options = good! More replayability = good! I’ve actually made a sylvari character, despite not even glancing in their direction previously! That’s GOOD!

Get over it, there are already bigger differences from one race to another. Personally I’m going to roll my Rev Sylvari to experience it, but I’m still going to definitely play it on another race to experience what that has to offer. It’s very unlikely that Sylvari will just get more content – it will just be different content and a different story. The exact same thing exists with the original story except they’re completely different stories, and there are multiple ways to play each racial story too. To play every part of the original story and experience all the voice acting you’d need to play loads and loads of characters. Zhaitan didn’t EVER have his own voice acting, I mean you’re complaining about the fact that you have to play a Sylvari to get it and yet there isn’t another alternative. This is what fits thematically with the actual story. If you had any appreciation for the story and weren’t just looking for something to whine about then you’d get that it has to be this way and it’s creative and exciting the way it is.

Wow..this is so racist it isn’t funny.

Tommyknocker.6089:

Roll a sylvari, or better yet just wait a week and people will post the vids on youtube. I see nothing wrong with a race being unique, and seeing as it fits the dragon/plot in this case I say good job ANet.

+This

On a related note, I do have to say that I’m not a fan of what Nolan has done with the voice. Maybe this audio is raw, but it’s nothing near what I’ve come to expect from something as massive and bad kitten as an elder kittening dragon.

At least turn up the base. It sounds like me trying to impersonate Lord Voldemort.

Gav.1425:

Tommyknocker.6089:

Roll a sylvari, or better yet just wait a week and people will post the vids on youtube. I see nothing wrong with a race being unique, and seeing as it fits the dragon/plot in this case I say good job ANet.

+This

On a related note, I do have to say that I’m not a fan of what Nolan has done with the voice. Maybe this audio is raw, but it’s nothing near what I’ve come to expect from something as massive and bad kitten as an elder kittening dragon.

At least turn up the base. It sounds like me trying to impersonate Lord Voldemort.

I think it’s raw audio. Mordremoth’s voice in the story slice we got in beta was far deeper and more resonant.

Well, glad I chose to roll Sylvari when Revenant drops.

Since the beginning of the game, you’d sometimes get different dialogues from NPCs depending on your race.
It would make absolutely 0 sense lore-wise to make other races hear Mordremoth.
I think it is a design worthy of a genius

I think it’s great, you say you want to be able to hear mordremoth on your non-sylvaris so you can experience the story, well guess what? The story doesn’t involve the other races being able to understand mordremoth.

Guess who created the sylvari? Mordremoth.
Guess who have a link with Mordremoth? Sylvari.
Guess who are being turned against the other races of tyria for the sake of the story? Sylvari.

Who, for lore and story reasons should be able to understand mordremoth? Sylvari.

It would make zero sense for any of the other races bar maybe Asura if they invented a “universal dragon translator” to be able to understand and hear Mordremoth.

If you don’t want to experience the dragons ramblings, then don’t, it won’t butcher your story because the voices aren’t meant for YOUR story if you don’t want to play a sylvari.

I think this whole thread can be resumed by saying what an RPG is: You make choices that affect your gameplay and turn it into a path. You have several other options, but that’s the one you chose. You want those other options? Roll a new character.
It’s been like that forever, you accept these options in every other RPG (or is this the only one you’ve ever played?) so why not this one?
Are you really kittening about having to choose an option in a game? Did you feel neglected by not playing the Durmand Priory story along with the Order of Whispers? Because that’s been there for 3 years now and it doesn’t seem like you complained… yet you had to roll another character to experience that part of the story.

TL;DR: RPGs are made of choices, choose wisely. Then roll another character and go crazy. Deal with it.

This is one of those moments where I’m glad I mained a Sylvari.

latinkuro.7304:

Tommyknocker.6089:

Roll a sylvari, or better yet just wait a week and people will post the vids on youtube. I see nothing wrong with a race being unique, and seeing as it fits the dragon/plot in this case I say good job ANet.

Are you a [censored] I wanna play the story myself NOT watch some lame video about it !!!

I do NOT want to be forced to play a sylvari to hear this amazing actor’s work as mordremoth ! and NEITHER should anyone else !!!

This is bad design !

If you’re not playing a Sylvari, and don’t want to, then it is thematically incorrect for you to hear Mordremoth. By not hearing him you are experiencing your story correctly as a non-sylvari. If you want to experience a different story, a story from the perspective of the pertinent different race, they you have to do it as a Sylvari.

Since you don’t want to play Sylvari, then you don’t want to experience that story. You want to experience the story that isn’t about how you are a traitor and that no one trusts you and everyone thinks you’re just going to turn on them and kill them. Because that’s the Sylvari story, not the story of every other race.

JoshuaRAWR.4653:

It would make zero sense for any of the other races bar maybe Asura if they invented a “universal dragon translator” to be able to understand and hear Mordremoth.

I really hope this is a thing by the end of the story. Just because I love Asura breaking everything by creating a new ridiculous invention.

I Dont agree with the OP. I think its an original idea & cool that only one race can hear it.