Some people don't like hard mode
That’s your opinion on how items work but that’s not how everyone feels.
And it’s your opinion that how items work is that they have to be uniquely obtained through certain content and only that content, but that also is not how everyone feels.
There are players who play the game and want to remember how they got something, the journey is equally important to the destination.
Right, so under the model I would like to see, they would look at the possible journies and choose the one they feel would be the most “epic”, or what have you.
I’m still not understanding how your journey suddenly becomes worthless because of how someone else decided to go on their journey. Why does how someone else obtains an item effect your journey? Your journey is the only one that should matter to you.
Anet has shown that they don’t care only for aesthetics, so your way of thinking doesn’t apply to them as well. I doubt they will come around and do it your way specifically for their new challenging content alone.
Anet has shown a lot of things. They flip their cares on a freaking dime. If HoT doesn’t pan out, expect them to change entire systems yet again, for the umpteenth time.
That’s the thing that is just its value to you, not its value in the context of the game.
But that’s the thing. If I don’t value the item, then for me, the context of the game does not matter.
You may hate white and black dyes but in the context of the game they are more valuable than say yellow.
Sure, but if I hate them, then their value doesn’t effect me.
There was also a black wooden sword, it was only obtained through a random drop As a result several players designed their entire outfits around showing off this sword, where it may not have been a look they would usually use they found a way to get value out of the item. Because of the game structures value on the item not the individuals tastes.
And that screams of bad game design to me. What good is a skin (in the context of this game) that you don’t actually like and only keep around because the game screamed out “Oh man, this is rare!”
People should be going after things because they actually like them and those things fit their tastes.
I see the disconnect.
you look at items as charachter customization primarily.
Because that’s what they are. This is a game of skins. You go after Bonetti’s Rapier because it’s a rapier and you’re a swashbuckling thief. You go after the SAB weapons because one of them is the Nintendo Zapper and another is a freaking lightsaber.
If all you’re after is rarity, then the skin serves no purpose. It could be anything. It could be a golden pineapple trophy.
But that does not create a rewarding game.
Says who? It certainly creates a rewarding game for me.
I look at some items as being a part of the game structure, a means of incentivizing behaviors, increasing satisfaction, and creating goals for playing the game.
I want people to aim to beat X battle and at the end feel like it served a purpose. I want people to explore a hidden area and come away feeling like the charachter has grown in doing so. I want the content to feel full, and purposeful. Some items a representation of how they played the game and what they achieved. to have a personal value.
All of that can occur without exclusive/unique items, though. Those items can still have personal value. Those battles can still serve a purpose, etc. The only thing keeping that from happening is yourself.
and yes anet could create a grindy horrible reward system with uniques, but they generally seem to make them less grindy if they dont involve multiple economies.
You’re kidding, right? When was the last time you got one of the Teq items? Or the TT items?
Or how about how long people have run high level fractals without an ascended chest? Or the horrible system that is ascended crafting?
ANet throws grind at all the content. They show basically no mercy.
Suffice to say if they create a legendary or ascended armor like level of grind while also being challenging, i agree that will be a huge failure of design.
Well, given their overall track record…
Edit: My apologies for a triple combo post extraveganza
Your fox story is EXACTLY my point, the dedication you showed to want and get that fox means YOUR fox is worth so much more than the ones people bought for 40 tokens.
But it’s not. It’s worth exactly the same as all those other foxes intrinsically. The only thing that makes that fox worth more than anyone else’s fox to me is that it is mine. “This is my fox. There are many like it, but this one is mine.” That would have still held true had I gotten it for 40 tokens as well.
See how the journey makes it worth it, giving the foxes away for free lessened their worth to their owners because they didn’’t have the experience you had to get yours.
There is no way to know that their experiences were any less than mine. I would dare argue they had a better experience than myself. Some of the Tol Barad quests were actually pretty interesting, especially as an engineer with a parachute.
In fact, it’s based on both, and one more.
Value of an item (ingame, and irl) is based on rarity, difficulty to obtain (what is linked with rarity) and popularity (demand supply).
And yet, if the item doesn’t aesthetically please me, it’s value is in fact zero (to me). Do you see where I’m going with this yet?
Not true… I’ll bet you used your fox mini for ages while almost everyone who bought it for 40 tokens rarely used it because it didn’t mean much to them.
You’re trying to obfuscate your true feelings when you use words like “intrinsically” when describing emotional worth. Why you’re trying to argue against me I don’t know – you can switch sides in the argument and people will be pleased you have shown yourself to not be rigid.
Items have the worth WE as players place on them, demanding there to be no reward for dedication rips apart those future bonds and feelings items have for us – you are trying to rip apart something we hold dear.
My backpack is Mawdry, my mini is Princess Mia, my sword is Storm Wizard’s and these matter to me because I put in effort and got attached. You are trying to create a world where I would not have these things mean as much to me… Why??
In fact, it’s based on both, and one more.
Value of an item (ingame, and irl) is based on rarity, difficulty to obtain (what is linked with rarity) and popularity (demand supply).
And yet, if the item doesn’t aesthetically please me, it’s value is in fact zero (to me). Do you see where I’m going with this yet?
Yes, you just want the skin you like best and so everything should be available to you without you having to do the content you don’t like.
But that then results in the grind we have now and while you might not have a problem with it, many people do.
Your fox story is EXACTLY my point, the dedication you showed to want and get that fox means YOUR fox is worth so much more than the ones people bought for 40 tokens.
But it’s not. It’s worth exactly the same as all those other foxes intrinsically. The only thing that makes that fox worth more than anyone else’s fox to me is that it is mine. “This is my fox. There are many like it, but this one is mine.” That would have still held true had I gotten it for 40 tokens as well.
Not true… I’ll bet you used your fox mini for ages while almost everyone who bought it for 40 tokens rarely used it because it didn’t mean much to them.
About the fox example, I think it’s partly true. You can also get some spiders there, first they where hard to tame (you needed to do special things to get them), in a later expansion you could tame the same spiders in other places very easy.
I did catch it when the easy spiders where already available, however I did still go for the kittene (that was also still available) simply because it was the kittene it gave added value for me to the spiders.
That said, I would still have loved it more if that hard way was the only possible way because it’s now so easy to get it it feels less valuable. In a way it undermines the work you did for at.. but at least that was still an option I had (while for many items currently in GW2 that option is not even available).
So it’s a two way thing. Both (looks, and how you get it) are important. Combining the two gives the best effect.
Not true… I’ll bet you used your fox mini for ages while almost everyone who bought it for 40 tokens rarely used it because it didn’t mean much to them.
I don’t know about the 40 token people, but I switch my pets around constantly when it comes to WoW. Whether the dedicated fox or the easily obtained penguin (the WoTLK one, not the Battle Net one), or the tiny hypogryph one that I got from the store when Blizz was donating funds for that Tsunami.
You’re trying to obfuscate your true feelings when you use words like “intrinsically” when describing emotional worth.
No, I’m trying to explain that so far as I’m concerned, what separates my items from anyone else’s is that they are mine, regardless of how I got them, regardless of their rarity, and regardless of whether 5 or 500 people are walking around with the same thing.
Items have the worth WE as players place on them, demanding there to be no reward for dedication rips apart those future bonds and feelings items have for us
But I’m not saying to not reward dedication.
I simply don’t understand how the dedication is diminished because of how other people get stuff. It’s a complete difference in…I can’t think of the word. A difference in philosophy I guess?
My backpack is Mawdry, my mini is Princess Mia, my sword is Storm Wizard’s and these matter to me because I put in effort and got attached. You are trying to create a world where I would not have these things mean as much to me… Why??
In the “world” I’m trying to create, you would still be able to put in that effort. That doesn’t change.
But that then results in the grind we have now and while you might not have a problem with it, many people do.
Only if the systems are designed as grindy.
Again, Teq and TT have “unique” rewards, and they’re still just as grindy. It’s about the implementation.
In fact, it’s based on both, and one more.
Value of an item (ingame, and irl) is based on rarity, difficulty to obtain (what is linked with rarity) and popularity (demand supply).
And yet, if the item doesn’t aesthetically please me, it’s value is in fact zero (to me). Do you see where I’m going with this yet?
Yes, you just want the skin you like best and so everything should be available to you without you having to do the content you don’t like.
But that then results in the grind we have now and while you might not have a problem with it, many people do.
Only if the systems are designed as grindy.
Again, Teq and TT have “unique” rewards, and they’re still just as grindy. It’s about the implementation.
Teq and TT are grindy because it’s content that gets grinded (especially Teq) for it’s general good loot. That general good loot instead of specific loot, is part of the problem. Many people do that content, so to keep the items unique they have to make a really really low drop-rate and that is why it gets grindy and earning the gold becomes the most viable option again.
When most items are behind specific content (but the general loot is not so good) you will not have this problem. What content is there to grind? If you want a specific item it’s always the fastest to simply do that content (even if a few of those items could be sold).
When you (in general) do not lock items behind specific content but use currency to get most items. Then people will start looking for what content gets them the currency the fastest and you will have the grind. (your examples are rewards placed behind some of that content people have selected to grind).
So yes it always has to do with the implementation, but one will almost always result in grind, the other is much less likely to result in grind.
heres the point, what type of incentive can you give for doing anything, if all incentives can be obtained by doing task A.
the type of system you guys are suggesting is one that may as well not exist. If you can get anything by doing anything, you may as well just give every one everything.
Beyond short term incentives designed to get people to try new content (which should be earnable within a few hours of effort), the “incentive” to run content should be fun gameplay. You should do it because it’s the thing you want to be doing. Classic arcade games offered nothing but gameplay. Best you could hope for is a high score on a leaderboard when you were done, and yet people spent thousands in quarters.
So I think the best game allows you to choose the activities YOU want to do, and provides you rewards for that activity relative to the time and effort you put into it, rather than only rewarding item A at content A, whether you like content A or not.
I want people to aim to beat X battle and at the end feel like it served a purpose. I want people to explore a hidden area and come away feeling like the charachter has grown in doing so. I want the content to feel full, and purposeful. Some items a representation of how they played the game and what they achieved. to have a personal value.
I do too, but you don’t need unique rewards for any of that. In fact, unique rewards holds that back, because if a given content doesn’t offer the specific rewards you want, you might have no incentive to bother with it at all, whereas if it helps your general progression towards any reward you want, then it’s always worth doing.
Now if items only exist for look customization, then perhaps your path is the way. But if that was the case, they shouldnt actually be giving cosmetics for anything, it should basically all be part of a appearance customizer.
Again, nobody is talking about not having to earn the things you want, just in being able to earn them through preferred means. The arguments being made do NOT amount to “everything should come free from the start.”
You are at least correct though that appearance and trophy value should not be conflated. People should be able to choose the appearance they want, and should be able to get trophies for achievement, but the trophies they get should not control what appearances are available to them.
and yes anet could create a grindy horrible reward system with uniques, but they generally seem to make them less grindy if they dont involve multiple economies. Suffice to say if they create a legendary or ascended armor like level of grind while also being challenging, i agree that will be a huge failure of design.
The problem with “grind” is that it’s entirely subjective. My impression of your position here, and correct me if I’m wrong, is that you believe that, say, “champ farming for gold to buy an item” would be a “grindy” activity to you, and is a negative aspect to the game, but that instead “fighting Tequatl daily in hopes of a Sunless weapon” would not be grindy? Well it depends on how much you enjoy each of those activities. If you enjoy the gameplay of champ farming more than you enjoy the gameplay of Teq farming, then the Teq grinding would be the more “grindy” experience. If there is a hard mode dungeon that you have to complete multiple times to get a complete set of gear, then that is grind.
Basically, anything that cannot be earned the FIRST time you complete an activity, is objectively grind. That does not automatically make it bad, but the degree to which it is bad is entirely subjective to the amount of fun you have doing that activity. There is no activity in the game that is objectively “less grindy” if you have to complete it ten times to get the reward you want, than any other activity in the game that you have to complete ten times. Even in content where you do get the reward for a single completion, if it’s difficult enough that you have to make nine failed attempts before you eventually succeed, then that’s “grind” too.
The concept of grind is fairly unavoidable in any game that isn’t based on “just playing through it once”, the best way to make that fun rather than punishment is to allow players to choose which activities they want to be grinding.
The SAB skins, Achievement skins(for weapons), Luminescent armor and Glorious armor all allow an average player to obtain a version of the item, while preserving the prestige by giving a second iconic version that carries the trophy status.
But this is a poor compromise, because if you want the fancier version and not particularly the “mundane” version, then you are still not getting the item you want, you’re just getting the cheap knockoff. In some cases, the “knock off” is the one I would have chosen anyways, like the SAB skins where the blue is just better than the yellow or green ones, but if they’d made the blue ones the “prestige” rewards I’d have been so kittened.
Again, skins should not be trophies, trophies should be trophies.
My backpack is Mawdry, my mini is Princess Mia, my sword is Storm Wizard’s and these matter to me because I put in effort and got attached. You are trying to create a world where I would not have these things mean as much to me… Why??
You would still have to put effort into earning them, you could just choose what form that effort took.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
Teq and TT are grindy because it’s content that gets grinded (especially Teq) for it’s general good loot.
Wrong. See: Teq’s Hoard
That general good loot instead of specific loot, is part of the problem. Many people do that content, so to keep the items unique they have to make a really really low drop-rate and that is why it gets grindy and earning the gold becomes the most viable option again.
Of course many people (supposedly) do the content! It’s in the open world! And you can’t grind gold for those rewards, at least not for Teq. Teq’s has exactly what you want. Unique rewards only available through him. You can’t even buy them, they’re account bound.
But Teq is still a horrible grind.
The reason the drop rate is so low isn’t because of how many people there are doing it. It’s because a low drop rate guarantees that certain players will keep coming back to that content again and again, and again until they are ready to scream. The drop rate is low to boost participation numbers.
When most items are behind specific content (but the general loot is not so good) you will not have this problem.
Prove it. Because so far, ANet has failed that test the majority of the time.
What content is there to grind? If you want a specific item it’s always the fastest to simply do that content (even if a few of those items could be sold).
The content to grind is -that- specific content, because don’t you dare think for one second that it isn’t going to be RNG’d into the ground. You’ll be running that content again and again and again waiting for that drop to ever appear.
Grind can only be avoided by having the drop be guaranteed the first time. The moment you’re running content multiple times, you are in fact grinding that content.
So yes it always has to do with the implementation, but one will almost always result in grind, the other is much less likely to result in grind.
And yet ANet has found a way to make both super grindy, so why exactly do you think this will be different?
Edit: In regards to Teq and Triple Wurm: Teq’s uniquie items come from Tequalts Hoard, Triple Wurm has the Great Jungle Wurm Chest, both have account bound unique rewards that can only be obtained through defeating that content, and even then, there’s still only a slim chance you’ll actually get any of those items. I was slightly vague with that in the post because I could not remember the reward chest names.
(edited by Gene Archer.8560)
I’m still not understanding how your journey suddenly becomes worthless because of how someone else decided to go on their journey. Why does how someone else obtains an item effect your journey? Your journey is the only one that should matter to you.
Maybe because everyone is different. Just like you for some reason think this is a game of skins, and not everyone think that way.
And if this game is really a game of skins. Why would I want to take so much effort doing hard content. While I can get the same thing half afk in silverwaste much faster.
It’s like me asking you why you would spend time grinding for skins. Doing content like mining, or farming silverwaste chest. You wont’ do it yourself if all those rewards is removed.
And if this game is really a game of skins. Why would I want to take so much effort doing hard content. While I can get the same thing half afk in silverwaste much faster.
Which is why ANet needs to work had to make it so that you can’t get any reward by being “half AFK in Silverwaste.”
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
And if this game is really a game of skins. Why would I want to take so much effort doing hard content. While I can get the same thing half afk in silverwaste much faster.
From what I’ve been told, because people supposedly enjoy hard content.
Teq and TT are grindy because it’s content that gets grinded (especially Teq) for it’s general good loot.
Wrong. See: Teq’s Hoard
What is yout point with Teq’s Hoard?
Of course many people (supposedly) do the content! It’s in the open world! And you can’t grind gold for those rewards, at least not for Teq. Teq’s has exactly what you want. Unique rewards only available through him. You can’t even buy them, they’re account bound.
But Teq is still a horrible grind.
The reason the drop rate is so low isn’t because of how many people there are doing it. It’s because a low drop rate guarantees that certain players will keep coming back to that content again and again, and again until they are ready to scream. The drop rate is low to boost participation numbers.
Yes they have some unique rewards, however they are mainly grinded for the general good loot they give. That has nothing to do with it being open world, people waypoint there when he is about to come up.
And it has everything to do with the number of people doing it if you want to keep an item rare.
You see, if a developer says “item x should be rare (about 1 in y people should have one)” and they put it behind content that on average gets done by 1 person a day, vs content that 10 people do every day, Then the drop-rate has to be 10 times lower to keep the same rarity.
If all you would want to do, is keep people doing the content for a longer time, lower drop-rates up to 1/50 might be enough as that means people would do it on average at least once every 50 time
And sure you could still mess it up when putting items behind specific content. But you are mixing things up.. you say. Making content available for everybody does not have to result in a grind, and then you try to prove that items behind specific content can also be turned into grind.. Do you see how the one does not proof the other.
Anyway, still if the RNG is doable / reasonable, farming specific content for a specific rewards is completely different from the grind. Because many other items you want will also be behind their own content. So you can switch between content and there is a direct approach towards your item. It’s completely different from the grind you get when items are basically locked behind a currency and you simply have to grind gold.
When most items are behind specific content (but the general loot is not so good) you will not have this problem.
Prove it. Because so far, ANet has failed that test the majority of the time.
Anet has not put most items behind specific content. And proof..? When you have items people are after, all behind specific content, especially when unique then people will be doing that content to get the rewards, instead of all ginding the currency needed to get it. That grind option is not even available. At best people farm specific content for specific items.. But that I don’t have a problem with.
What content is there to grind? If you want a specific item it’s always the fastest to simply do that content (even if a few of those items could be sold).
The content to grind is -that- specific content, because don’t you dare think for one second that it isn’t going to be RNG’d into the ground. You’ll be running that content again and again and again waiting for that drop to ever appear.
Grind can only be avoided by having the drop be guaranteed the first time. The moment you’re running content multiple times, you are in fact grinding that content.
“don’t you dare think for one second that it isn’t going to be RNG’d” it shouldn’t and it does not have to be. RNG could be of a more reasonable level. And yes people will still need to do it multiple times, but thats the replayability we talked about.. It’s something completely different from the grind we see now where people simply do whatever makes them the gold so they can buy the item they want.
So yes it always has to do with the implementation, but one will almost always result in grind, the other is much less likely to result in grind.
And yet ANet has found a way to make both super grindy, so why exactly do you think this will be different?
They made a grindy game, then put a few specific items behind the content people grind and then you say they made both grindy. No, what I say is that you have to put most items behind their on specific content. Anet did not do that.
(edited by Devata.6589)
I do see one common agreement between both sides. Everybody seems to agree the game is very grindy and also would prefer this to go.
And if this game is really a game of skins. Why would I want to take so much effort doing hard content. While I can get the same thing half afk in silverwaste much faster.
From what I’ve been told, because people supposedly enjoy hard content.
They do but mmorpg is a game of grind. After they complete the hard content for the first time, they won’t felt like going back and do it again if there is no rewards.
Everyone was doing TA aetherblade when it came out. But as time pass, very few people are still doing it. The reward is just not worth the effort.
Just like if silverwaste rewards is removed, the zone would be empty after the first month.
and maybe people like good rewards as well as hard content. So they want to do the hard content and at the same time get good rewards for it. The rewards is no longer good if there is a easier way to get it with less effort.
(edited by laokoko.7403)
Anet has not put most items behind specific content. And proof..? When you have items people are after, all behind specific content, especially when unique then people will be doing that content to get the rewards, instead of all ginding the currency needed to get it. That grind option is not even available. At best people farm specific content for specific items.. But that I don’t have a problem with.
Why do you not have a problem with that? If they do not enjoy that content, and only want that item, is that not an example of degenerative gameplay?
It’s something completely different from the grind we see now where people simply do whatever makes them the gold so they can buy the item they want.
No, it is not.
Replayable content is always grind if you’re repeating it for the result, rather than repeating it for the joy of playing it. If you are repeating content not because you’re having fun, but because you need to repeat it to get a prize, then it doesn’t matter in the least what that prize is, XP, gold, a unique reward, an achievement, etc., you are engaged in grind. Some degree of grind is unavoidable, but ideally you should be able to grind at the tasks you most enjoy, rather than being at the whim of the developers in which grinds they’ve paired with which rewards.
They do but mmorpg is a game of grind. After they complete the hard content for the first time, they won’t felt like going back and do it again if there is no rewards.
And that’s fine, if that’s their choice.
Everyone was doing TA aetherblade when it came out. But as time pass, very few people are still doing it. The reward is just not worth the effort.
That’s the conclusion you take from it. The conclusion I take from it is that people don’t particularly enjoy playing that sort of content.
Just like if silverwaste rewards is removed, the zone would be empty after the first month.
Perhaps, and that’s fine, people would shift to something they enjoy more.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
And if this game is really a game of skins. Why would I want to take so much effort doing hard content. While I can get the same thing half afk in silverwaste much faster.
From what I’ve been told, because people supposedly enjoy hard content.
They do but mmorpg is a game of grind. After they complete the hard content for the first time, they won’t felt like going back and do it again if there is no rewards.
Everyone was doing TA aetherblade when it came out. But as time pass, very few people are still doing it. The reward is just not worth the effort.
Just like if silverwaste rewards is removed, the zone would be empty after the first month.
and maybe people like good rewards as well as hard content. So they want to do the hard content and at the same time get good rewards for it. The rewards is no longer good if there is a easier way to get it with less effort.
Well they are progression based, and for some vertical progression is what they like, for other it’s horizontal progression. What really means, chasing fun items like toys and skins and mini’s and pets.
Still there is a big difference between farming specific content for specific rewards and just grinding a currency to buy your rewards. In the best case scenario, content has multiple (specific) rewards. One that you simply get for completing it, and some with some RNG for replayablity. Also upgrades for doing it better / faster is an interesting way to keep people replay the content.
Anet has not put most items behind specific content. And proof..? When you have items people are after, all behind specific content, especially when unique then people will be doing that content to get the rewards, instead of all ginding the currency needed to get it. That grind option is not even available. At best people farm specific content for specific items.. But that I don’t have a problem with.
Why do you not have a problem with that? If they do not enjoy that content, and only want that item, is that not an example of degenerative gameplay?
I want enjoyable content, else I would be joining the grind.. what I am not. Still I also like to chase the rewards. Both have to be interesting.
And yes people will still need to do it multiple times, but thats the replayability we talked about.. It’s something completely different from the grind we see now where people simply do whatever makes them the gold so they can buy the item they want.
No, it is not.
Yes it is, not to you clearly as you have no problem with the grind, but for many people it very much is.. a huge difference.
Yes it is, not to you clearly as you have no problem with the grind, but for many people it very much is.. a huge difference.
Indeed it is.
If you are looking for a cozy mature Dutch guild (EU) let me know.
What is yout point with Teq’s Hoard?
It’s exactly the unique content you claim would make the game better because it would remove the grindy nature of the game.
Except that it is still a grind.
My point is that you keep saying that unique rewards will make the game better and remove grind despite the fact they have done no such thing as of yet except in two instances, instances that avoid grind entirely by guaranteeing the reward off the first try (SAB Trib and Lidari)
And sure you could still mess it up when putting items behind specific content. But you are mixing things up.. you say. Making content available for everybody does not have to result in a grind, and then you try to prove that items behind specific content can also be turned into grind.. Do you see how the one does not proof the other.
My point is that your belief that unique rewards will remove grind doesn’t hold water.
Anyway, still if the RNG is doable / reasonable, farming specific content for a specific rewards is completely different from the grind. Because many other items you want will also be behind their own content. So you can switch between content and there is a direct approach towards your item.
And in my scenario, so long as you enjoy other content, you can switch between content to get towards the reward so you’re not in the same content all the time.
It’s completely different from the grind you get when items are basically locked behind a currency and you simply have to grind gold.
No it’s not, because instead of gold it’s locked behind low RNG. It’s still a bloody grind.
Anet has not put most items behind specific content. And proof..? When you have items people are after, all behind specific content, especially when unique then people will be doing that content to get the rewards, instead of all ginding the currency needed to get it. That grind option is not even available. At best people farm specific content for specific items.. But that I don’t have a problem with.
In other words, you don’t have a problem with grind. because that is exactly the same thing, only instead of a currency, you’re directly grinding the content. It’s the same kitten thing. You’ve removed currency and in it’s place you’ll have to put RNG, unless you want that content completed only once.
“don’t you dare think for one second that it isn’t going to be RNG’d” it shouldn’t and it does not have to be.
It does if it’s going to have any staying power.
RNG could be of a more reasonable level.
It definitely should be all over the entire game. This game has the worst RNG.
And yes people will still need to do it multiple times, but thats the replayability we talked about..
That’s exactly what grind is. It’s doing content multiple times to reach a reward.
No, what I say is that you have to put most items behind their on specific content. Anet did not do that.
But putting specific items behind specific content doesn’t automatically remove grind, regardless of how many specific items you put behind specific content! You’re still gonna wind up grinding.
The rewards is no longer good if there is a easier way to get it with less effort.
Why not? Why is the reward no longer good? Why do you care how someone else got the reward if what you want is to tackle hard content for that reward and that hard content is what you enjoy and that hard content is available? How does someone else’s journey impact you?
Yes it is, not to you clearly as you have no problem with the grind, but for many people it very much is.. a huge difference.
No, it is not.
You see an activity you do not like, and you label it as “grind.” I see an activity that I do not like, and I label it as “grind.” In your case you might be talking about champ farming, in my case I might be talking about Fractal running, they are BOTH GRIND. There are almost no activities in this game that are not “grind” from an objective perspective, whether you enjoy that grind is entirely subjective to your personal enjoyment of that activity.
What is important is to free up rewards from specific activities, so that you aren’t forced to do the things that you consider grind and I’m not forced to do the things that I consider grind, and we can both enjoy the activities we are engaged in, as we both progress towards the rewards that we desire.
TL;DR Replayability = Grind, so long as you are going it for the goal and not for the journey
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
What is yout point with Teq’s Hoard?
It’s exactly the unique content you claim would make the game better because it would remove the grindy nature of the game.
Except that it is still a grind.
My point is that you keep saying that unique rewards will make the game better and remove grind despite the fact they have done no such thing as of yet except in two instances, instances that avoid grind entirely by guaranteeing the reward off the first try (SAB Trib and Lidari)
And sure you could still mess it up when putting items behind specific content. But you are mixing things up.. you say. Making content available for everybody does not have to result in a grind, and then you try to prove that items behind specific content can also be turned into grind.. Do you see how the one does not proof the other.
My point is that your belief that unique rewards will remove grind doesn’t hold water.
No wait, I did not ever claim that when you make unique rewards, automatically every ‘grind’ would go, also I did never claim farming of content (what you seem to mean here) would go. In fact, we (not only me) pointed rewards out as a way to create replayability… you could define that as farming.
The MC dungeon is also an example I gave, and people dit farm that for the reward. But that is no problem for me, people will then do that dungeon for the molten backpack, and another for the cool eyepiece.
But that is something else as the grind we have now in the game.. And with the current approach where you can only buy most items with gold you will always have a grind. So there is a clear difference.
Besides.. do you also notice how the 3 examples you gave (especially SAB and Liadri), have been among the most praised content?
Anyway, still if the RNG is doable / reasonable, farming specific content for a specific rewards is completely different from the grind. Because many other items you want will also be behind their own content. So you can switch between content and there is a direct approach towards your item.
And in my scenario, so long as you enjoy other content, you can switch between content to get towards the reward so you’re not in the same content all the time.
First of all it’s still a completely different experience, and gives a completely different meaning to the reward (and the content). Chasing a reward directly vs grinding the gold is a world of difference. And secondly, as we have seen for the last 2,5 years this just is not how it works.
It’s completely different from the grind you get when items are basically locked behind a currency and you simply have to grind gold.
No it’s not, because instead of gold it’s locked behind low RNG. It’s still a bloody grind.
Farming directly for an item is a completely different experience then grinding gold. At least, for many people it is.
The content also gets a completely different meaning, and the reward gets a completely different meaning.
It’s still repetitive.. that is true, while specific rewards for specific content at least cuts it up in many smaller farms, instead of the one big gold grind when going the currency way.
So really, the only thing both have in common is repetitive, but even that is different.
“don’t you dare think for one second that it isn’t going to be RNG’d” it shouldn’t and it does not have to be.
It does if it’s going to have any staying power.
I did the math, showing it does not have to, a little earlier in the same post.
RNG could be of a more reasonable level.
It definitely should be all over the entire game. This game has the worst RNG.
And that could be less, when putting rewards behind specific content!
And yes people will still need to do it multiple times, but thats the replayability we talked about..
That’s exactly what grind is. It’s doing content multiple times to reach a reward.
Well there are many different types or `doing content multiple times`. Nobody in this thread ever said that had to go. So maybe that should have given you a hind, when we talk about the current grind in the game, we mean.. well the current grind. We don´t mean that there should be completely no form of replayability.
No, what I say is that you have to put most items behind their on specific content. Anet did not do that.
But putting specific items behind specific content doesn’t automatically remove grind, regardless of how many specific items you put behind specific content! You’re still gonna wind up grinding.
Clearly it depends on the implementation. When making items generally drop, or items only available behind some currency (as is not the case) you can only end up with grind.
When putting rewards behind specific content you can make the RNG still unreasonably high making it really bad farming sure. But there is way less need to have such bad RNG, RNG can be more acceptable so the content becomes a smaller farm. And then every content has it’s own reward so it become multiple smaller farms.
Of course you could also make guaranteed drops or drops based on how fast you do it, or on what difficulty you do it.
Implementing something bad, is always possible. I am not denying that.
Yes it is, not to you clearly as you have no problem with the grind, but for many people it very much is.. a huge difference.
No, it is not.
Funny that you know that it is not a difference for people, even f they say it is a difference for them.
Believe me or not, it does not really matter, but the fact is, that for many people it very much is a hige difference. Many can’t stand the grind as we have it now (but can stand farming (when reasonable!) specific content for a specific item they want), will get bored or burned out by it.. or in fact already have.
When they come (back) with HoT Anet should want to hold those people.
Replayability = Grind, so long as you are going it for the goal and not for the journey
You forget the combination of the two.. where content in combination with the reward is what you are going for.
(edited by Devata.6589)
I love how so many people seem to mention GW1 in this topic, saying that game had the same thing, wich is kind of true, you could buy most things with gold in that game.
BUT do you remember the 55 hp monk, or other farm focussed builds that let you round up the entire area and then murder them all together? That wasn’t easy, but it was the most gold effective way. It actually rewarded hardcore people to devellop their own gold making ways. Be it specific farm methods, from 55 hp monk to green farming assasins, to droknar runs, or other runs being sold. Every skill on your bar was essential in most of those builds. And missing one just ment you died.
This due to gw1 being instanced, so you could solofarm.
GW2 farming is pressing 1 over and over.
Don’t compare these games, they aren’t the same game.
If you are looking for a cozy mature Dutch guild (EU) let me know.
My backpack is Mawdry, my mini is Princess Mia, my sword is Storm Wizard’s and these matter to me because I put in effort and got attached. You are trying to create a world where I would not have these things mean as much to me… Why??
In the “world” I’m trying to create, you would still be able to put in that effort. That doesn’t change.
Ok here is the process.
Item is released, player thinks “oh I want that!”, player finds out how to get it, does it and gets the reward.
If the “how to get it” is ANYTHING, you immediately do the easiest method because you WANT the item. Which is where your world falls down, everyone will do the path of least resistance and so we then lose our unique journey for the item.
Why don’t you understand? Or do you think if someone wants something they will deliberately handicap themselves trying to get it?
The rewards is no longer good if there is a easier way to get it with less effort.
Why not? Why is the reward no longer good? Why do you care how someone else got the reward if what you want is to tackle hard content for that reward and that hard content is what you enjoy and that hard content is available? How does someone else’s journey impact you?
dude, no one care about how other people get their rewards. What people care is the reward is crap if they have a easier way to get it.
A 10$ an hour job looks like crap when you can get 20 or 30$ per hour.
and everyone wants to get a fun job which pay good. Just like everyone like to enjoy their content while they get good rewards.
You want the samething too. You just enjoy easier content more.
The rewards is no longer good if there is a easier way to get it with less effort.
Why not? Why is the reward no longer good? Why do you care how someone else got the reward if what you want is to tackle hard content for that reward and that hard content is what you enjoy and that hard content is available? How does someone else’s journey impact you?
its not someone elses journey its your journey thats impacted.
its not so much that someone else can get it easily, its that YOU can get it easily. So now doing whatever herculean task seems like a waste of time.
lets say there is two methods of getting a wizard hat. Breaking into the hidden wizards lair, destroying his defenses stealing the hat from his familiar.
or going to the starting npc in divinities reach and giving him 2 iron ore. Suddenly for me personally, going to the wizards lair is a waste of time. I may do it for the thrill, but the hat may as well not even be a reward.
Not only that, if the hat is unique, npcs could talk about the mysterious wizard hat give you clues, and the desire for the wizards hat can lead you to a grand adventure. But if the npcs tell the story of a wizards hat like the one that piebald pate over there will trade you for 2 iron ore, suddenly a grand adventure is an excercise in futility.
Funny that you know that it is not a difference for people, even f they say it is a difference for them.
I just know when people are misusing a word to mean something that it does not mean. It’s not that I don’t believe you, it it that you are wrong, regardless of what you believe. It’s like if you say “clowns do not exist,” you’re free to believe that, but that does not mean that you are right.
The fact remains, any activity that involves repeat play is “grind,” if the player is not enjoying himself as he goes.
There is no repeatable activity in the game that you can definitively and objectively say is more grind than any other, you can only state your own opinion as to which activities you personally feel are more of a grind than others.
Many can’t stand the grind as we have it now (but can stand farming (when reasonable!) specific content for a specific item they want), will get bored or burned out by it.. or in fact already have.
I don’t dispute this, but the point is, the activities that some people love are the activities that others hate. You can’t please everyone with the same activities. Therefor, the goal should be to allow players to freely choose the activities that they love, and avoid the activities they hate, without holding the rewards hostage to that choice.
You forget the combination of the two.. where content in combination with the reward is what you are going for.
Reward is irrelevant to grind. You can have four scenarios:
A. You have to repeat a dungeon an average of ten times before the very best item in the entire game drops.
B. You have to repeat a dungeon an average of ten times before a fairly boring item drops.
C. You have to do a champ train circuit ten times before the very best item in the entire game drops.
D. You have to do a champ train circuit ten times before a fairly boring item drops.
Which of those is a grind? The answer is all of them. A is no less a grind than B, C is no less a grind than D, just because the final reward is better. If only B and C are options, B is not less of a grind than C just because the loot is better, it is still grind.
Now if you ENJOY playing the dungeon, if you would play the dungeon even in a game without any loot, then it is not grind to you, and won’t become grind until you get bored with it, and this is true loot or no. If you are not enjoying the dungeon, but you have your eye on the prize, then it IS grind, it’s just grind that you’re willing to put up with. In either case, what is grind for you is not necessarily grind to someone else, and what is fun to you is not necessarily fun to everyone else.
Do you understand the point that I am making?
If the “how to get it” is ANYTHING, you immediately do the easiest method because you WANT the item. Which is where your world falls down, everyone will do the path of least resistance and so we then lose our unique journey for the item.
That’s entirely up to you. Assuming the systems are well balanced, while there likely will be an “easiest way,” it should not be all that much easier than “the hardest way.” Maybe a little more time and effort, but not so much that people who prefer the harder path should feel it would be a waste of their time. Besides, people choose the harder path all the time. You can just buy a Legendary off the TP if you want, but plenty of people go through the hassle of personally collecting as many of the pieces as they can and building their own, perhaps even trying their best not to just buy the Precursor or T6 mats involved.
When given multiple options, the journey towards your goal is whatever journey you choose to take. Don’t try to pawn off that responsibility on the game’s design.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
lets say there is two methods of getting a wizard hat. Breaking into the hidden wizards lair, destroying his defenses stealing the hat from his familiar.
or going to the starting npc in divinities reach and giving him 2 iron ore. Suddenly for me personally, going to the wizards lair is a waste of time. I may do it for the thrill, but the hat may as well not even be a reward.
That seems like a profoundly unbalance system. I would not support such a system, and have not heard of anyone (not made of straw, at least) that would support such a system.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
The rewards is no longer good if there is a easier way to get it with less effort.
Why not? Why is the reward no longer good? Why do you care how someone else got the reward if what you want is to tackle hard content for that reward and that hard content is what you enjoy and that hard content is available? How does someone else’s journey impact you?
rewards in games are not so much about what it is you get, so much as how you get them.
but also a game is a shared system of rules.
Example i create a game
catch the candy:
the goal is to get the candy!
chase your friend around the park, catch him and you win candy!
fun game.
add a new rule to the game. or go to the candy bag and take a candy.
suddenly the game is wack. One could ignore the candy bag, but what you are doing there is creating a new game, the game itself is lame, and flawed. The player has to make a new game within the game in order to be entertained.
now if you simply want candy, then second rule is great, but its still a crappy game, with nice candy.
lets say there is two methods of getting a wizard hat. Breaking into the hidden wizards lair, destroying his defenses stealing the hat from his familiar.
or going to the starting npc in divinities reach and giving him 2 iron ore. Suddenly for me personally, going to the wizards lair is a waste of time. I may do it for the thrill, but the hat may as well not even be a reward.
That seems like a profoundly unbalance system. I would not support such a system, and have not heard of anyone (not made of straw, at least) that would support such a system.
its an illustrative example to show that the ways in which an item is obtained effects its personal value, and thus its ability to be a compelling incentive for a course of action
When given multiple options, the journey towards your goal is whatever journey you choose to take. Don’t try to pawn off that responsibility on the game’s design.
no you are wrong, that is the main responsibility of game design.
the rules/bonuses of a game are supposed to guide your journey and experience in a game.
i think you are confusing good game design with good engine design.
the difference between basketball (the game) and a ball and a hoop and court.
(edited by phys.7689)
If the “how to get it” is ANYTHING, you immediately do the easiest method because you WANT the item. Which is where your world falls down, everyone will do the path of least resistance and so we then lose our unique journey for the item.
That’s entirely up to you. Assuming the systems are well balanced, while there likely will be an “easiest way,” it should not be all that much easier than “the hardest way.” Maybe a little more time and effort, but not so much that people who prefer the harder path should feel it would be a waste of their time. Besides, people choose the harder path all the time. You can just buy a Legendary off the TP if you want, but plenty of people go through the hassle of personally collecting as many of the pieces as they can and building their own, perhaps even trying their best not to just buy the Precursor or T6 mats involved.
When given multiple options, the journey towards your goal is whatever journey you choose to take. Don’t try to pawn off that responsibility on the game’s design.
A book is £10 from one shop and £20 from another – choose your path… Don’t put the blame on the shop owners for you taking the £10 one though – its totally your choice!
Your system now is looking like something for the rich and lazy, say we have rewards from hard content do they require you doing easy content 1000 times to keep it “balanced.” You’re asking for grind for the unskilled rather than incentives for trying to play better. Or that they are rich enough to buy it outright already.
People construct their Legendaries based on cost.. They decide they can do World Completion and w/e else for less effort than grinding the extra money.
You have no incentives to go do new things, no rewards for dedication to improvement, grind over gameplay, wealth getting you new things. Ugly ugly ugly game you’re making with no emotional connection to experiences.
Also there is ALWAYS an easiest way, not “likely,” its a requirement.
lets say there is two methods of getting a wizard hat. Breaking into the hidden wizards lair, destroying his defenses stealing the hat from his familiar.
or going to the starting npc in divinities reach and giving him 2 iron ore. Suddenly for me personally, going to the wizards lair is a waste of time. I may do it for the thrill, but the hat may as well not even be a reward.
That seems like a profoundly unbalance system. I would not support such a system, and have not heard of anyone (not made of straw, at least) that would support such a system.
Tell us exactly how you’d distribute the Wizard Hat then; grind SW, buying outright with pregathered money, how quickly should you get it from doing PvP/WvW/Dungeons?
Our system is go do the Wizard’s Tower content, designed with attention and love by people at Anet. What “do the best bot farm” system are you proposing?
No incentive to play new content, if lots of people stop doing the new content maybe Anet will just stop producing it..
What about adding an item, let’s say 1000 gold, that would let you unlock any 1 skin (non legendary), maybe another one that let’s you unlock any 1 armor set, just thinking out loud here. This would both pricecap skins to not go above this price(wich is a problem right now, some normal skins are more expensive then legendary weapons), and give an option for players that don’t like a certain type of content, to unlock a skin they wouldn’t be able to unlock otherwise, if they really wanted. While not undermining the achievements of players that do that content, and not undermining the content itself being the optimal way to get the reward, so still encouraging people to do it. Thoughts?
If you are looking for a cozy mature Dutch guild (EU) let me know.
(edited by Fox.3469)
Example i create a game
catch the candy:
the goal is to get the candy!
chase your friend around the park, catch him and you win candy!fun game.
add a new rule to the game. or go to the candy bag and take a candy.
suddenly the game is wack. One could ignore the candy bag, but what you are doing there is creating a new game, the game itself is lame, and flawed. The player has to make a new game within the game in order to be entertained.
now if you simply want candy, then second rule is great, but its still a crappy game, with nice candy.
It is. It’s a bad game. Nobody is asking for that game. Except maybe the Scarecrow, but what does he know, he has straw for brains.
its an illustrative example to show that the ways in which an item is obtained effects its personal value, and thus its ability to be a compelling incentive for a course of action
Yes, and that is a fact that nobody disputes.
What is at question is whether it is healthy to use attractive rewards to encourage people to engage in content that they do not enjoy, or whether it would be healthier to allow them to do the content that they already enjoy, and also feel rewarded for that.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
here is an idea that might please both camps, make it so you can get the rewards of this hardcore content without actually doing it but make it heavily time gated. You can still get it, but you have to spend weeks, maybe a month or two to get the same reward.
Maybe you earn 2 currency a day and need 60 maybe even 100 currency to buy one, you can earn those 2 from a wide spread of reasonably easy goals a day that should reasonable to even the laziest of casuals. At the same Time I think there should be certain prestige items from the hardest of the hardest content that you shouldn’t be able to buy through this method that resemble lower version of that items, but have something just a little special.
Fort Aspenwood
PRAISE GEESUS
PRAISE GEESUS
here is an idea that might please both camps, make it so you can get the rewards of this hardcore content without actually doing it but make it heavily time gated. You can still get it, but you have to spend weeks, maybe a month or two to get the same reward.
Maybe you earn 2 currency a day and need 60 maybe even 100 currency to buy one, you can earn those 2 from a wide spread of reasonably easy goals a day that should reasonable to even the laziest of casuals. At the same Time I think there should be certain prestige items from the hardest of the hardest content that you shouldn’t be able to buy through this method that resemble lower version of that items, but have something just a little special.
I think an issue might arise later if you don’t add new currencies for each item (which means lots of currencies which is bad), I for example have 496 Laurels atm, a time gated currency but would completely over power any time gated item.
the difference between basketball (the game) and a ball and a hoop and court.
There are no rewards to basketball (the game). All rewards are secondary to the experience.
A book is £10 from one shop and £20 from another – choose your path… Don’t put the blame on the shop owners for you taking the £10 one though – its totally your choice!
Are they right next to each other? If so, that’s bad design. But is the $10 (sorry, don’t have a pound key) shop much further away than the $20 one? Would it take me a $10 cab fare to get there and back? Would it take me an hour by bus with several transfers in between? Would it take me four hours to walk there and back? Would the $10 store ship it to me, but charge $5 and it would take two extra days? There are all sorts of ways that you could balance out a $10 and a $20 price for the same item, and people could choose whether or not it was worth it to take one of those alternative routes to it.
That’s my point, nobody is saying that you shouldn’t balance out the time and effort needed to get the reward, to make each a viable alternative.
Your system now is looking like something for the rich and lazy, say we have rewards from hard content do they require you doing easy content 1000 times to keep it “balanced.” You’re asking for grind for the unskilled rather than incentives for trying to play better. Or that they are rich enough to buy it outright already.
Again, I don’t think gold should ever be the ideal solution, and wouldn’t mind if it were entirely unavailable as an option. As for “grind vs. play better,” remember that to some people, the “play better” option IS the grind, IS doing the thing they don’t want to do. At least this would give them options. If they looked at the “farm for it” path and they looked at the “git gud” path, and decided that the farming path was too much hassle and the skill path was within their reach, then they might choose the latter, it’s up to them.
Tell us exactly how you’d distribute the Wizard Hat then; grind SW, buying outright with pregathered money, how quickly should you get it from doing PvP/WvW/Dungeons?
Our system is go do the Wizard’s Tower content, designed with attention and love by people at Anet. What “do the best bot farm” system are you proposing?
No incentive to play new content, if lots of people stop doing the new content maybe Anet will just stop producing it..
There would be a lot of variables at play there. How hard would the Wizard’s tower be? How long would it take to complete? Would you be guaranteed his hat if you could beat him? So let’s run the numbers.
Let’s say the Wizards Tower is reasonably difficult. Let’s say it is an average two-hour dungeon, maybe an hour if you know the tricks and skip what’s skippable, let’s say that 1% of active players can clear it within the first 1-2 attempts, 10% of players can clear it within their first several attempts (with a guide, at least), and 50% of players can clear it after a dozen attempts. You get the hat as a drop 10% of the time. That’s our baseline. It would take the average median player something around 20-40 hours to get one of those hats, while the lucky and skilled could get it within as little as 1 hour.
If people enjoy the Wizard’s tower, they will want to do the Wizard’s tower, with or without a hat at the end. If they don’t love the Wizard’s tower, then they might not want to do it unless you bribe them.
So alternate ways to get that hat? Let’s assume this map is in Kessex Hills, for reasons. Ok, so you can run the tower, and each time you reach a milestone, you get some tokens. Say up to 40 tokens per run even if you get to the boss and fail, and another 20 for beating him, 60 total. You accumulate 1200 tokens, you can buy the hat outright. That means if you beat the thing 20 times (twice the statistical average) and are not lucky enough to get the drop, then you can at least “cash out” and buy it with tokens. If you keep running the tower and failing midway, you’ll keep earning at least some amount of tokens.
Alternately, you can run certain events in Kessex Kills, the Overlord, the Witch, the Spider, etc., not all, but a few of them, and get a few tokens each from those. It would take 40-60 hours of Kessex farming to acquire enough tokens to buy the hat that way.
Alternately, you can run content elsewhere, Citadel of Fire, for example. and collect tokens from there. You could convert these into Wizard tokens at an exchange rate that would mean if you ran CoF for about twice as long as you’d need to run the wizard’s tower, you could also buy the hat that way.
As for the idea that this hat is meant to be some fancy “only one in the world” item, that’s complete nonsense, everyone will have one of these hats, it’s just immersion-breaking to try and many out any item in an MMO to be “unique,” unless there is literally only one of them given away as some uber-rare prize. You take the Wizard’kitten today, he has a new one for someone else to take by tomorrow, he’s a wizard, he can do that.
As for why Anet should design such content? They should design it because people want to play it. If they have to bribe people into playing it, then they clearly didn’t design good content, and don’t deserve to have anyone playing it.
What about adding an item, let’s say 1000 gold, that would let you unlock any 1 skin (non legendary). This would both pricecap skins to not go above this price(wich is a problem right now, some normal skins are more expensive then legendary weapons), and give an option for players that don’t like a certain type of content, to unlock a skin they wouldn’t be able to unlock otherwise, if they really wanted. While not undermining the achievements of players that do that content. Thoughts?
Again, gold is the absolute worst way to try and balance out the system. ANet has completely failed with their gold economy.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
ANet has completely failed with their gold economy.
Sigh. If it fails, I hope it fails harder because whatever it’s not doing, It’s doing it well enough for MANY people in this game. Some people don’t know when to accept their reality. Despite your questionable claim of failure, no solution you have presented is worth implementing or makes it a generally better approach for the game; it’s simply different. It’s not about getting it your way. BK is THAT way.
(edited by Obtena.7952)
the difference between basketball (the game) and a ball and a hoop and court.
There are no rewards to basketball (the game). All rewards are secondary to the experience.
A book is £10 from one shop and £20 from another – choose your path… Don’t put the blame on the shop owners for you taking the £10 one though – its totally your choice!
Are they right next to each other? If so, that’s bad design. But is the $10 (sorry, don’t have a pound key) shop much further away than the $20 one? Would it take me a $10 cab fare to get there and back? Would it take me an hour by bus with several transfers in between? Would it take me four hours to walk there and back? Would the $10 store ship it to me, but charge $5 and it would take two extra days? There are all sorts of ways that you could balance out a $10 and a $20 price for the same item, and people could choose whether or not it was worth it to take one of those alternative routes to it.
That’s my point, nobody is saying that you shouldn’t balance out the time and effort needed to get the reward, to make each a viable alternative.
Your system now is looking like something for the rich and lazy, say we have rewards from hard content do they require you doing easy content 1000 times to keep it “balanced.” You’re asking for grind for the unskilled rather than incentives for trying to play better. Or that they are rich enough to buy it outright already.
Again, I don’t think gold should ever be the ideal solution, and wouldn’t mind if it were entirely unavailable as an option. As for “grind vs. play better,” remember that to some people, the “play better” option IS the grind, IS doing the thing they don’t want to do. At least this would give them options. If they looked at the “farm for it” path and they looked at the “git gud” path, and decided that the farming path was too much hassle and the skill path was within their reach, then they might choose the latter, it’s up to them.
Tell us exactly how you’d distribute the Wizard Hat then; grind SW, buying outright with pregathered money, how quickly should you get it from doing PvP/WvW/Dungeons?
Our system is go do the Wizard’s Tower content, designed with attention and love by people at Anet. What “do the best bot farm” system are you proposing?
No incentive to play new content, if lots of people stop doing the new content maybe Anet will just stop producing it..
There would be a lot of variables at play there. How hard would the Wizard’s tower be? How long would it take to complete? Would you be guaranteed his hat if you could beat him? So let’s run the numbers.
Let’s say the Wizards Tower is reasonably difficult. Let’s say it is an average two-hour dungeon, maybe an hour if you know the tricks and skip what’s skippable, let’s say that 1% of active players can clear it within the first 1-2 attempts, 10% of players can clear it within their first several attempts (with a guide, at least), and 50% of players can clear it after a dozen attempts. You get the hat as a drop 10% of the time. That’s our baseline. It would take the average median player something around 20-40 hours to get one of those hats, while the lucky and skilled could get it within as little as 1 hour.
If people enjoy the Wizard’s tower, they will want to do the Wizard’s tower, with or without a hat at the end. If they don’t love the Wizard’s tower, then they might not want to do it unless you bribe them.
So alternate ways to get that hat? Let’s assume this map is in Kessex Hills, for reasons. Ok, so you can run the tower, and each time you reach a milestone, you get some tokens. Say up to 40 tokens per run even if you get to the boss and fail, and another 20 for beating him, 60 total. You accumulate 1200 tokens, you can buy the hat outright. That means if you beat the thing 20 times (twice the statistical average) and are not lucky enough to get the drop, then you can at least “cash out” and buy it with tokens. If you keep running the tower and failing midway, you’ll keep earning at least some amount of tokens.
Alternately, you can run certain events in Kessex Kills, the Overlord, the Witch, the Spider, etc., not all, but a few of them, and get a few tokens each from those. It would take 40-60 hours of Kessex farming to acquire enough tokens to buy the hat that way.
Alternately, you can run content elsewhere, Citadel of Fire, for example. and collect tokens from there. You could convert these into Wizard tokens at an exchange rate that would mean if you ran CoF for about twice as long as you’d need to run the wizard’s tower, you could also buy the hat that way.
As for the idea that this hat is meant to be some fancy “only one in the world” item, that’s complete nonsense, everyone will have one of these hats, it’s just immersion-breaking to try and many out any item in an MMO to be “unique,” unless there is literally only one of them given away as some uber-rare prize. You take the Wizard’kitten today, he has a new one for someone else to take by tomorrow, he’s a wizard, he can do that.
As for why Anet should design such content? They should design it because people want to play it. If they have to bribe people into playing it, then they clearly didn’t design good content, and don’t deserve to have anyone playing it.
What about adding an item, let’s say 1000 gold, that would let you unlock any 1 skin (non legendary). This would both pricecap skins to not go above this price(wich is a problem right now, some normal skins are more expensive then legendary weapons), and give an option for players that don’t like a certain type of content, to unlock a skin they wouldn’t be able to unlock otherwise, if they really wanted. While not undermining the achievements of players that do that content. Thoughts?
Again, gold is the absolute worst way to try and balance out the system. ANet has completely failed with their gold economy.
I’m sitting on several thousand Dungeon Tokens, so I get the Wizard’kitten instantly? Are you restricting your system to Kessex only events – what about the people who don’;t like Kessex events? What about the people who just like crafting?
Your “everyone gets to play the thing they like to get any item” is so narrowly conceived from your point of view once you start going down that road you will always be able to find a demographic that YOU find ridiculous for rewarding.
Does an RPer get the Wizard’kitten for organising an in game wedding? Or do they just need to play the way you like? (which kinda goes against your philosophy doesn’t it?)
You’ll require so many reward tracks with so many contributers and willl still be unable to please everyone.
DO the content, get the reward. Its involves gameplay that Anet want to encourage, gets people experiencing new content (don’t pretend people don’t need incentives every now and then) and learning their class/lore/story.
I’m sitting on several thousand Dungeon Tokens, so I get the Wizard’kitten instantly?
Good for you. You’ve clearly put a lot of time into running dungeons and deserve to get yourself something pretty with it. Keep in mind that this system would be implemented for all things too though, so spending all those dungeon tokens on the wizard’kitten would leave you poor for buying anything else you might want to buy with them. If they really wanted to make sure that nobody could use the alternate systems for a period of, say, a month or two, that would be fine too. So long as it’s a reasonable time period, a temporary lockout can be fine.
Are you restricting your system to Kessex only events – what about the people who don’;t like Kessex events? What about the people who just like crafting?
Kessex is where the easiest token availability would be because it’s in the region. They would have a variety of activities to pursue there. There can also be Wizard’s Tower PvE and PvP tracks, modeled along the same lines as existing dungeon tracks. Crafters would have to make their own hats.
Your “everyone gets to play the thing they like to get any item” is so narrowly conceived from your point of view once you start going down that road you will always be able to find a demographic that YOU find ridiculous for rewarding.
Sure, and they should not get that prize. Nobody is saying that it should be a truly infinite system, just that there should be a wide variety of options, representing a wide variety of difficulty levels and gameplay styles. While perhaps none of those would be the exactly perfect option for a given player, it would at least give them more options than just “you have to do it this one way, or nothing.” Chances are that anyone could fine a method that they would prefer to their least favorite method.
DO the content, get the reward. Its involves gameplay that Anet want to encourage, gets people experiencing new content (don’t pretend people don’t need incentives every now and then) and learning their class/lore/story.
Again, I feel I’ve addressed this point at least a dozen times now, there IS a place for rewards that “encourage you to try a new thing,” that’s fine and a positive design purpose, but such rewards need to be narrowly focused at getting players to TRY a new thing, not at keeping them there. A “try this please” reward needs to be something that you can earn within a couple of hours of trying that thing, and then you are allowed to leave if you prefer. If it turns out you really like that content, then you can stick around and it’ll be your primary reward mechanism until you get bored with it. If you try it and don’t like it, then the game should respect that and allow you to go on your way with your goodie-bag in hand.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
Saying gw2 is hard is like people complaining about having to use stairs and they should add escalators instead.(for one flight of stairs may i add)
Stairs are healthy for us, we dont wanna get lazy guys.
the difference between basketball (the game) and a ball and a hoop and court.
There are no rewards to basketball (the game). All rewards are secondary to the experience.
actually there are rewards in basketball, points. and they are given for playing the game in a certain way.
Thats the role items are in an MMO, these items are a part of the game, not something seperate from it.
The items are how the game shows you that you are doing something of value within the game.
a system that rewards anything for doing whatever you want
actually there are rewards in basketball, points. and they are given for playing the game in a certain way.
Points are not rewards, they are score keeping mechanisms. You don’t get to keep any of them when the game is over. A point would be equivalent to a kill count within a mission tracker.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
Another thing came to mind today:
Some people surely remember the elite collecting sign that you could equip in GW1 . I had a blast hunting for mobs that had skills I did not have, and it was mostly open world, at least I remember hunting a mob in the far shiverpeaks for a skill.
Hard content and a grind? Serious question.
actually there are rewards in basketball, points. and they are given for playing the game in a certain way.
Points are not rewards, they are score keeping mechanisms. You don’t get to keep any of them when the game is over. A point would be equivalent to a kill count within a mission tracker.
you dont get to keep any of these items when the game is over either.
these items exist for the purpose of game, and only within the game. They are how you can tell your progress within the game past level 80.
this is the purpose of points as well, it guides the players and encourages them for the appropriate actions.
your goal in basketball is to score points
your goal in GW2 post 80 game is to get items
if you dont want items to be a game goal, (like points) then you need to replace it with some other goal that is either as, or more compelling.
this is why people like unique rewards, it gives them a goal, while not diminishing other forms of play.
Some people want to collect all the fractal skins, not because they love every fractal design, but because it gives them a goal/reason to play fractals.