you dont get to keep any of these items when the game is over either.
Ok, now you’re just getting silly to try and make your original point relevant. A game of Basketball is equivalent to a night of GW2, not to your entire time spending the game, which would be equivalent to a lifetime of Basketball.
What is relevant is that “points” in Basketball are a transitory token, they confer no permanent value, and have no intrinsic worth beyond as a scorekeeping mechanism. If anything, using basketball points only further reinforces my idea that “status credits” should not be conflated with “intrinsic goods.” A player does not get a new jersey, shorts, or shoes every time he makes a basket.
A basketball “point” can at most be compared to achievement points, or to “Hero Points,” or other generic tokens that accrue over the time played, but do not, of themselves, actually have any uniqueness or inherent value beyond as a token.
If players feel the need to get “stuff” each time they “score,” then that’s fine, nobody is disputing that factor, what is in dispute is the insistence by some of you that this “stuff” absolutely MUST come in the form of tangible items, unique to that content, which is an entirely subjective position to hold, and not at all necessary to enjoyment of the content.
Some people want to collect all the fractal skins, not because they love every fractal design, but because it gives them a goal/reason to play fractals.
and that’s fine. Let them do that. And other people want to collect all the fractal skins, not because they enjoy playing Fractals at all, but because they love every fractal design. Let them collect the fractals skins they want, without having to do the fractal content that they don’t. Everybody gets to do what they want, and everybody is happy, so long as none of those people are the sort that are only happy when other people are sad.
It’s like if you say “clowns do not exist,” you’re free to believe that, but that does not mean that you are right.
No, it’s more like you say “Clowns are fun” and I say “Clowns aren’t fun.”
Or you say “Clowns have a red nose” and I say “I prefer a clown with a blue nose”.
Some people like clowns some don’t, some prefer clowns with a red nose, some with a green. They both might be clowns (repetition, in our conversation) but they are still different.
Personally, I name one type of repetition grind, and the other farming. But it does not really matter what you name it, the difference matter and there clearly is a difference no matter if you use a different name for it or not.
Now let me one more time try to explain the difference. First with some simple facts, then with describing the experience when playing the game.
While of course things can always be implemented different from my example.
- Rewards directly behind content means every content is rewarding in a similar way. Sure we might and should have the best skins behind the harder content but you would and should expect similar RNG for the rewards. So every content rewards its own item VS the current grind, where most rewards you need to buy. (let’s say the finishers, they all cost the same amount of gold). Now some content gets you the gold much faster and easier than the other.
- Meaning of the reward is linked to the content adding value to it. The item becomes a trophy.
- Wanting to collect many items will guide you to many different content. Chasing rewards becomes exploring and adventure.
Now the playing experience. You like fun and cool and good looking items, you are reward driven so set yourself goals getting those items.
Current approach.. find out how to get the item, it turns out that the only, or the only viable option is to buy it with some currency (usually gold). Look how to best earn that currency, start doing the content. Buy the reward, same for the next item and the next and the next. That is the grind.. you are grinding some currency to buy all the items, usually just doing much of the same content. Switching from one item to the other does not change much for you content-wise.
Now what happens in the “specific items behind specific content”. You see an item you like, find out how to do it. It’s an direct reward for completing dungeon x in y time. You go do dungeon x and increase your skill to be able to complete it in y time. If you find it a little hard you switch to another item you like. For that you need to complete a JP so you do that and get the reward.
The next item is a reward from a quest so you go do the quest and get the item, the next is an RGN drop from some boss in a mini dungeon so you do that.. if farming that bass gets boring you turn back to the dungeon you had to complete in y time.
This last approach sends you all over the world and as far as there are farms, it is split up into multiple smaller farms. The content feels rewarding and not just a way to grind some currency for the next item you are after.
It really is a completely different experience. And many (not all) people do like / prefer that other experience. You might name both grinding (while that is only true IF you implement something like RNG, what is not a must for the “reward behind content”, but it is to create re-playability.) however it still is completely different.
I don’t dispute this, but the point is, the activities that some people love are the activities that others hate. You can’t please everyone with the same activities.
And I do not dispute this, but in the current approach you are really making the content to pick from smaller.. Sure on paper you can do everything, so pick something you like, but in reality that starts feeling bad because you are punishing yourself..
I like JP’s.. But how many JP’s would I have to do, to earn the same amount of gold as doing the champ trains for an hour? So it’s nice on paper, but in reality it works different.
If there were just a few items in the game you would be after, this might in fact work because you did not need a lot of the currency. But it breaks down as soon you start chasing multiple rewards.
Also doing specific content for a specific item is for many a completely different experience by itself. When it’s hard content with a direct reward, it’s the experience of getting better. If it’s an RNG drop it’s the rush of “will it drop this time”. That is completely different from doing the content slowly increasing the currency until it reaches the number you need.
So on paper you can do what you want and everything stays the same. But reality works different.
(edited by Devata.6589)
lets say there is two methods of getting a wizard hat. Breaking into the hidden wizards lair, destroying his defenses stealing the hat from his familiar.
or going to the starting npc in divinities reach and giving him 2 iron ore. Suddenly for me personally, going to the wizards lair is a waste of time. I may do it for the thrill, but the hat may as well not even be a reward.
That seems like a profoundly unbalance system. I would not support such a system, and have not heard of anyone (not made of straw, at least) that would support such a system.
Well it’s a perfect example. It shows how the items behind the content (especially when unique) changes the complete experience and the value of the reward.
Here you see an example where your “play what you want” false appart in reality. Also it’s very clear here that when you said “if you do other content that is your choise” works different in reality.
However this is exactly how it works in GW2. If I want the flying broom it will cost me x amound of gold. I can do what I like (defending keeps in WvW or doing JP’s and doing guild-related stuff). But it wil take much much longer that way then using one of the used gold grind approaches. In fact, it will take so long, it’s not even a viable option when chasing multiple rewards And I get a lesser reward for it, as it really has not game-value (it’s not liked to content).
Having to kill the mad king to earn the broom would have been a way better experience.
(edited by Devata.6589)
No, it’s more like you say “Clowns are fun” and I say “Clowns aren’t fun.”
Or you say “Clowns have a red nose” and I say “I prefer a clown with a blue nose”.
No, I’ve never disputed your right to prefer some activities and not prefer others, you just keep trying to say that certain things are definitely “grind” to all people and others are “not grind” to all people, and that the game should be designed based on those distinctions, when the fact is that every aspect of the game is potentially “grind,” and what feels like grind to you is entirely subjective to your experience. If you are attempting to use the term to justify a gameplay decision that would impact everyone, then you need to use the objective version, not the subjective.
Now the playing experience. You like fun and cool and good looking items, you are reward driven so set yourself goals getting those items.
Current approach.. find out how to get the item, it turns out that the only, or the only viable option is to buy it with some currency (usually gold). Look how to best earn that currency, start doing the content. Buy the reward, same for the next item and the next and the next. That is the grind.. you are grinding some currency to buy all the items, usually just doing much of the same content. Switching from one item to the other does not change much for you content-wise.
That is certainly one type of grind. Another type of grind would be that the item only drops from a specific boss of a specific dungeon, at say a 5% chance, meaning you need to complete that dungeon on average 20 times for it to drop (potentially quite a bit more). You do not enjoy this dungeon at all, but you really want that item, so you run the dungeon over and over and over, bored the entire time, until the item drops. That is EQUALLY grind, from an objective position. Now whether you are more likely to prefer farming in the open world for currency or running a dungeon repeatedly is entirely subjective, but you cannot make the claim that either is objectively “right” or “wrong.”
Now, if you argue you should be able to run the dungeon just once and get the reward, that’d be nice, but there’s no way they could keep up with content for the entire game based on that principle, they need to convince players to repeat some activities, but ideally they let the players decide for themselves which activities they find fun to repeat. For me that’s open world events, for someone else it might be dungeons, to each his own.
You later argue that you should only get the reward if you can complete it in a minimum time, but if this goal is difficult enough that most players cannot complete it on the first try, then each failed attempt would be considered “grind” by most people, and far worse grind than farming for currency, since it is less rewarding on each failed attempt (usually).
This last approach sends you all over the world and as far as there are farms, it is split up into multiple smaller farms. The content feels rewarding and not just a way to grind some currency for the next item you are after.
And that is entirely your personal opinion on the matter.
If it’s me, I would appreciate it if all those areas you mentioned worked, but I had a choice at every point to do something else instead. I don’t want to farm away at a single location the entire time, but neither do I want the game to tell me that I can’t when I feel like it. If I want to farm the entire reward in a single location, then the game should be cool with that. If I want to farm it from ten different locations, some world events, some JPs, some mini-dungeons, etc., wandering as I see fit, then the game should be cool with that too. Not wanting to do the content in one area should not preclude me ever getting the rewards native to that area.
As for the rest of what you were saying, it goes back to the distinction I was talking about between the “get you to try it” reward and the “long term effort” reward. I think it’s perfectly fine to encourage players to travel the world and see a bit of everything by offering them rewards to do so, but the actual time and effort involved in acquiring any of these rewards should be minimal, they should be given for just showing up, maybe dabbling in the local content for a little bit, not camping out there for a week or more. Once you move beyond “ok, I’ve tried it, and I don’t like it,” the game should respect your choice and allow you to pursue your goal elsewhere.
Points in basketball are rewards. It’s just that in this thread we are talking about long term rewards. Something that is in the game that the player needs to plan out their course of action.
Also, rewards are never available the way you want to get them. They are only available through designed routes of acquirement. While it’s entirely possible to design different routes to a reward, this would require double the amount of design.
And instead of game design serving the rewards, it’s rewards that need to serve the game design. It’s not so much that unique rewards in certain content serves the player to do what they want because they serve the purpose of drawing players in to that part of the game.
Removing any pull from the events that everyone is doing anyway makes the game stale. People need rewards outside of their grasp in order to enjoy the game to its fullest. That’s not to say that every piece of content needs a unique reward. But at least it means it’s in the players decision whether they want a certain item and are willing to go through the effort to get that content. Unique rewards also serve as incentive that players at least try out different content. Depending on accessibility.
All in all. Having multiple routes for all of the rewards is a pretty dumb move. Not because it serves the players in a way they can do whatever they like. It’s because it removes incentive to do other things that they might or might not like.
Like PvP reward tracks are a great incentive to go do PvP. While a unique back item might incentive player to not only come to PvP but also get better at it.
So yes, certain rewards need to be always be slightly out of reach because they are part of the design. Players aren’t going to automatically flock to the content of their choosing if they aren’t pulled there by the rewards of the game.
However this is exactly how it works in GW2. If I want the flying broom it will cost me x amound of gold. I can do what I like (defending keeps in WvW or doing JP’s and doing guild-related stuff). But it wil take much much longer that way then using one of the used gold grind approaches. In fact, it will take so long, it’s not even a viable option when chasing multiple rewards And I get a lesser reward for it, as it really has not game-value (it’s not liked to content).
I’m by no means saying that the current system is even remotely ideal. I don’t know where you would get that impression.
For one thing, you’ll need to completely set aside your annoyance at the gem store and the items sold through it to have any credible discussion on this, or any other GW2 topic. That is how they make their money, there is no better alternative method for them to make money, it is staying, nothing about it will be changing, it is entirely pointless to discuss otherwise.
But now that we’re past that, let’s talk about the items that are not in the gem store that can be bought with gold, and how to acquire that gold. I agree that gold is a bad currency, for numerous reasons, which is why I favor the alternatives come from account bound currencies that have no market value.
I also agree that GW2 currently does a weak job of balancing out the various ways to earn gold, and they will need to do a better job of balancing out the methods of acquiring these new “loot currencies,” so that they DO present a fair choice and there are no “far and away” winners and losers. They should all be balanced out to be roughly equal, to the point that maybe at most an hour spent at one location would make you a little more than at another, but not by so much that you would do the one you hated instead of the one you really enjoyed, or feel like it was a terrible waste to not be doing the more profitable one.
The goal is to reach a state where you can fairly choose between several methods of progressing any goal you want, and they will all get you there with equivalent amounts of time and/or effort. Choose the one that best suits your temperament.
What about adding an item, let’s say 1000 gold, that would let you unlock any 1 skin (non legendary), maybe another one that let’s you unlock any 1 armor set, just thinking out loud here. This would both pricecap skins to not go above this price(wich is a problem right now, some normal skins are more expensive then legendary weapons), and give an option for players that don’t like a certain type of content, to unlock a skin they wouldn’t be able to unlock otherwise, if they really wanted. While not undermining the achievements of players that do that content, and not undermining the content itself being the optimal way to get the reward, so still encouraging people to do it. Thoughts?
Personally I think that when you put most items behind specific content and don’t make the content very rewarding in other ways, or don’t make a grind culture. Making some or even many items tradable would give this same effect.
Because now the difficulty of that content determines the price. People won’t grind that content for gold… well they can, to get that single item to sell it. But if many people would start doing that the item would drop to much, besides they could just as well do the content that rewards the item they like. So the design of the game pushes less towards grinding.
Of course, as long as most or best items are only available with a currency (looking as the cash-shop) you will always create the grind we now see as there really is no other option.
Removing any pull from the events that everyone is doing anyway makes the game stale. People need rewards outside of their grasp in order to enjoy the game to its fullest.
Of course, and like I’ve said, you shouldn’t start with everything, you shouldn’t be handed everything, you should have to earn it, my position is only that you be able to earn it via multiple methods, and choose the method that appeals to you. Players should not have to choose between whether they want to do something they don’t want or go without the item, there is no benefit to forcing that decision.
It’s because it removes incentive to do other things that they might or might not like.
There should be no incentives for players to do things that they know that they do not like. If there is something they know that they do not like, then they should not do that thing. If it turns out that there is a less than viable population who do want to do that thing, then that thing should be closed down. It’s not the majority’s job to do things that they do not enjoy, just to support an activity that only a small minority enjoy. If that minority wants to do that activity, then they need to justify its existence themselves.
And again, for about the two-dozenth time now, there is a place for rewards that encourage people to try a new activity, but once they’ve tried it and decided it isn’t for them, the game should respect that and let them go. If you respect your players, let them go. If they don’t return, they were never yours to begin with.
You just keep trying to say that certain things are definitely “grind” to all people and others are “not grind” to all people.
Rewards behind specific content does not have to be repetitive / grind.
When any us say you could make an item RNG-based within that content (while smaller RNG then with open world items) we do that because we understand that it is good there is a reason for people to do content multiple times.
But this is an addition to create the repetition. It’s not an property of rewards behind content.
Anyway I make it right with you. While I have no problem with some reasonable RNG within content to get specific rewards (I have no problem with those smaller and direct farms vs the big currency grind), we will get rid of that to not confuse some people to much, or to not have to go into the discussion about the meaning of different types of grind, and what is better.
So for the sake of argument, no RNG, you simply give content 3 difficulties and every difficulty rewards a different (upgraded) reward.
There is no required repetition in this. If you complete the hardest mode in the first run you get all the rewards in the first run.
There, the required farm / grind is completely gone and ‘we’ are still happy with having items directly behind content.
Removing any pull from the events that everyone is doing anyway makes the game stale. People need rewards outside of their grasp in order to enjoy the game to its fullest.
Of course, and like I’ve said, you shouldn’t start with everything, you shouldn’t be handed everything, you should have to earn it, my position is only that you be able to earn it via multiple methods, and choose the method that appeals to you. Players should not have to choose between whether they want to do something they don’t want or go without the item, there is no benefit to forcing that decision.
It’s because it removes incentive to do other things that they might or might not like.
There should be no incentives for players to do things that they know that they do not like. If there is something they know that they do not like, then they should not do that thing. If it turns out that there is a less than viable population who do want to do that thing, then that thing should be closed down. It’s not the majority’s job to do things that they do not enjoy, just to support an activity that only a small minority enjoy. If that minority wants to do that activity, then they need to justify its existence themselves.
And again, for about the two-dozenth time now, there is a place for rewards that encourage people to try a new activity, but once they’ve tried it and decided it isn’t for them, the game should respect that and let them go. If you respect your players, let them go. If they don’t return, they were never yours to begin with.
One of those methods will be branded the easiest and will farmed and accomplished into infinitude. Unless you want them all to be hard, then your title is extremely misleading. Also who quits a game because there is some item that is in a game mode they don’t play? I don’t do fractals and I think those fractal weapon skins are amazing, but I understand that no matter how much I like them, they are the reward for that game mode and the people who put in the effort deserve them, that not being me. In fact I despised dungeons in this game, but just recently I needed a set of monk runes for a build I was setting up. Those runes are exclusive rewards from AC, not difficult or hard by any standard, but I had to do it. For the few runs I did to get the full set, I had a blast, sure by the end I despised the kitten ed place, but it gave me an objective and a method to accomplish it, and you know what. I wouldn’t have had it any other way.
Understanding that you can’t get everything you want by doing what you want is part of being an adult, get over it.
However this is exactly how it works in GW2. If I want the flying broom it will cost me x amound of gold. I can do what I like (defending keeps in WvW or doing JP’s and doing guild-related stuff). But it wil take much much longer that way then using one of the used gold grind approaches. In fact, it will take so long, it’s not even a viable option when chasing multiple rewards And I get a lesser reward for it, as it really has not game-value (it’s not liked to content).
For one thing, you’ll need to completely set aside your annoyance at the gem store and the items sold through it to have any credible discussion on this, or any other GW2 topic. That is how they make their money, there is no better alternative method for them to make money, it is staying, nothing about it will be changing, it is entirely pointless to discuss otherwise.
Well if we do that, we could just as well stop the discussion. Most and best looking items are directly or indirectly sold there. When chasing rewards, they are just as important as any other items, if not more because of the usually better looks.
Most of the grinding going on, is to get many of those items (as it are the best items in the game).
It’s the main reason for the flawed reward system as we have it now. Ignoring that part would be like ignoring speeding when trying to decrease the number of people who die in traffic “because people will keep speeding anyway”.
They also have other options, while some I dislike (p2p) and some I prefer.. like the system the game was introduced with, and they used for GW1 (B2P.. more frequent expansion and mainly earning the money with that). Not really going into this discussion again as we have already done that a few pages back (I think you were not active in this thread at that point but go have a read). But those items very much count and Anet has options there as well. The reward-system is indeed very much linked to the used model. That is then also the reason I usually (in most threads) talk about the model (the source of this problem) instead of the reward-system.
However, this thread is about rewarding items for (hard) content. So here I simply look that.
Now maybe they could put those rewards also behind specific hard content.. You can now brainlessly grind for them so why not complete challenging content for them? If every items then gets its own challenging content. It would still remove the game-value for the item but at least there is an alternative to the current grind.
Remember that I said you could have 3 rewards depending on the difficulty. Then make second hardest always one of the gem-store items, and do that with all the gem-store items.
The hardest reward will then still holds its game-value and gem-store items can be grinded or gotten for doing challenging content. (and you can throw money at it).
Rewards behind specific content does not have to be repetitive / grind.
Again, in an MMO, most rewards do. They can’t generate enough content to keep people occupied otherwise. They can do “one time complete” rewards occasionally, but the bulk of their content needs to be repetitive. They can do this one of two ways:
A. You succeed at a task over and over until you get the reward somehow.
or
B. You are intended to fail over and over, until eventually you don’t get the reward.
With B, it’s tricky to balance in a way that is both achievable by most players eventually and not easy for the best players, because they need to keep the best players just as invested as the weakest ones. And if they balance against the best players then the vast majority of players get frustrated and quit. So B is unarguably the worst way to try and balance out a game.
So for the sake of argument, no RNG, you simply give content 3 difficulties and every difficulty rewards a different (upgraded) reward.
There is no required repetition in this. If you complete the hardest mode in the first run you get all the rewards in the first run.
There, the required farm / grind is completely gone and ‘we’ are still happy with having items directly behind content.
No, this content fails in all possible ways.
1. It fails to maintain skilled players. They will probably skip the easier modes entirely and complete the hard mode relatively quickly, and then they’re out of the loop. You have failed to maintain their interest for any reasonable amount of time.
2. It fails the highly unskilled. They will never be able to complete the hard mode, meaning the prize is permanently out of reach, which will make them frustrated and enjoy the game less. After several failed attempts, they will give up entirely and if you’re very lucky, move to other things rather than quitting the game entirely. The more often you present them with this experience, the more likely the latter is to be.
3. It also fails the moderately skilled, because they won’t be able to beat hard mode on the first try, but as that’s the mode they want to be doing, they will keep trying, and failing, and face the same frustrations as the unskilled group. Nobody will be satisfied with the sub-hard modes unless they provide meaningful progress towards the harder mode’s rewards (and no, “training” doesn’t count). Now some of those moderately skilled players, even though they could potentially pass hard mode eventually, will just decide it’s not worth the hassle and mode on, just like group 2. Some will stick with it, and perhaps even enjoy pushing that boulder up the hill every day, only to see it roll down over them, but ultimately this is a degenerative gaming experience and should not be encouraged.
The better experience allows you to succeed most of the time, and your improvement is not how much closer you get to maybe winning, but how much better you do relative to the minimum necessary to win. Yeah, beating the dungeon wasn’t that hard, but it took you 25 minutes. That other group was able to do it in only 15, can you beat that? Maybe, if you keep trying. In the meantime, you’re still getting the rewards for beating the dungeon each time you try, and there’s no prize for beating that time, beyond the satisfaction of knowing that you did it.
But anyways, yeah, the occasional “try it once, beat it, and get a prize” is a fun addition, it’s the desert after dinner, but it can’t be the primary form of content in an MMO, even a game as well funded as WoW cannot keep up that pace.
One of those methods will be branded the easiest and will farmed and accomplished into infinitude.
Sure, whatever, but so long as the other methods are not significantly “less easy,” they remain viable options, and those that prefer them can do those instead. Look, you may not have noticed that you’re not the first person to raise this point, but ultimately I’m just tired of it. If it happens, it happens, it’s still better than the alternative of leaving players no choice at all.
Also who quits a game because there is some item that is in a game mode they don’t play?
People do every single day.
If it’s over a single item? It’s rare. It happens, but it’s not often. There aren’t all that many people who go “they just added a new armor, and I’m never going to get it, so I quit!” Soime, but not many.
What is much more common is for the weight of many such situations piling up. When there are many items that seem permanently out of reach, maybe the player had dreams of one day getting one, of becoming good enough to complete that task, but after months or years of playing he knows he’s not getting there, or he just understands himself enough to know that it isn’t worth the effort. It’s a slow and steady burn-out, and he might not even attribute it to and single loot item, but the constant frustrations just pile up and he moves on to some other game where there are still plenty of things available that he can achieve.
Understanding that you can’t get everything you want by doing what you want is part of being an adult, get over it.
And understanding that other people are different than you, and that the way you react to things is not necessarily the way other react to things, and that you are not “more right” for your reactions than they are for theirs, is the most important part of becoming an adult, and something too few people bother with.
Well if we do that, we could just as well stop the discussion. Most and best looking items are directly or indirectly sold there. When chasing rewards, they are just as important as any other items, if not more because of the usually better looks.
Yes, but it’s an entirely moot point. Nothing you or I say will every change anything about the gem store, not unless you can come up with a better business model (and no, “B2P box sales alone” and “subscriptions” are both off the table).
It’s the main reason for the flawed reward system as we have it now. Ignoring that part would be like ignoring speeding when trying to decrease the number of people who die in traffic “because people will keep speeding anyway”.
No, it’d be more like ignoring tornadoes as a cause of property damage, because there’s absolutely nothing that can be done about them. The gem store is inevitable, any system you design has to accept it as a fact or it will be behaving outside of reality.
Now maybe they could put those rewards also behind specific hard content.. You can now brainlessly grind for them so why not complete challenging content for them? If every items then gets its own challenging content. It would still remove the game-value for the item but at least there is an alternative to the current grind.
As an alternative? Sure, so long as the alternative is reasonable. But of course the items used here would have to be unique to content, not something also on the gem store. Gem store content will always remain exclusive to the gem store.
Remember that I said you could have 3 rewards depending on the difficulty. Then make second hardest always one of the gem-store items, and do that with all the gem-store items.
Yeah, no, it’d be nice, of course, but it’s not going to happen, just like it’d be nice if tornadoes just stopped happening for no apparent reason. They will not implement rewards that steal money out of their own pocket, that would be lunacy.
Braindead SW facerolling should not be the most rewarding content in the game.
Now, that is a separate argument from the one we’re now having. We’re not talking here really about which content should be most rewarding, but about restricting rewards to specific content, which is a completely different topic.
Also…
There is no effort involved there.
That’s not really the case, you know. Effort and difficulty are also two different things.
Teq and TT are grindy because it’s content that gets grinded (especially Teq) for it’s general good loot. That general good loot instead of specific loot, is part of the problem. Many people do that content, so to keep the items unique they have to make a really really low drop-rate and that is why it gets grindy and earning the gold becomes the most viable option again.
First, you can’t get teq weapons for gold. Second, you are basically saying the the system you propose works well only when just a small number of people are doing the content with limited rewards. Yet you are also advocating unique rewards as an incentive so that more people would be doing that content. That doesn’t seem too well thought out, wouldn’t you say?
Everyone was doing TA aetherblade when it came out. But as time pass, very few people are still doing it. The reward is just not worth the effort.
Yeah, because that dungeon is just so bad that people will only run it of they get paid for it. If it was a content people would enjoy doing, you’d find a much better participation levels, regardless of the rewards.
Personally I think that when you put most items behind specific content and don’t make the content very rewarding in other ways, or don’t make a grind culture.
Grinding for items is in no way better (or worse) than grinding for gold. “Grinding culture” as you called it, is created by having to repeat the same content many times before getting the desired reward. This is unlikely to go away, regardless of the difficulty of the content.
Rewards behind specific content does not have to be repetitive / grind.
Of course not, but the rewards exclusive to the difficult content were proposed as a way to keep the participation levels up in the long run… which means they will need to be based aroud replayability, repetition and grind, or they won’t fulfill their function. And if they won’t fulfill their function, they are not needed in the first place.
No, this content fails in all possible ways.
1. It fails to maintain skilled players. They will probably skip the easier modes entirely and complete the hard mode relatively quickly, and then they’re out of the loop. You have failed to maintain their interest for any reasonable amount of time.
2. It fails the highly unskilled. They will never be able to complete the hard mode, meaning the prize is permanently out of reach, which will make them frustrated and enjoy the game less. After several failed attempts, they will give up entirely and if you’re very lucky, move to other things rather than quitting the game entirely. The more often you present them with this experience, the more likely the latter is to be.
3. It also fails the moderately skilled, because they won’t be able to beat hard mode on the first try, but as that’s the mode they want to be doing, they will keep trying, and failing, and face the same frustrations as the unskilled group. Nobody will be satisfied with the sub-hard modes unless they provide meaningful progress towards the harder mode’s rewards (and no, “training” doesn’t count). Now some of those moderately skilled players, even though they could potentially pass hard mode eventually, will just decide it’s not worth the hassle and mode on, just like group 2. Some will stick with it, and perhaps even enjoy pushing that boulder up the hill every day, only to see it roll down over them, but ultimately this is a degenerative gaming experience and should not be encouraged.
1. Then the content is not challeging enough.
2. I do not see that as a fail.. They can try to get better at it, and as long as they don’t the price indeed it out of reach for them. (you know, like with most games.. winning the world champions, means you need to become better or else you will never win that). I think more people will move (have moved) away getting bored by the grind as we have now.
3 They will need to do it a few times to get better indeed. But in your example where people grind a currency they also need to do things multiple times so why is it suddenly a problem. Not to mention that everybody is better in some things and worse in others. So your moderately skilled will be able to do multiple things in one or just a few tries. But there will indeed also be content that will then take them longer.
Remember the wizards hat example, where you said that would be unbalanced.. but if it was balanced it would be good (that’s basically what you seem to suggest there). well this is a way to balance it. The ‘grind’ is now completely based on the difficulty of the content.
“(and no, “training” doesn’t count)." Why not, because then your reasoning would fall apart? I would thing training, getting a bit further, or closer or faster for sure counts.
Anyway, when you seem to dismiss everything and the reasons for it then I am really interesting in your solution? Because I have a feeling, everything you point out here why something we suggest would not work… also exists in your solution.. in fact in exist in all solutions with the exception of one.. giving everything out for free. But that would really result in a dull game.
Yeah, beating the dungeon wasn’t that hard, but it took you 25 minutes. That other group was able to do it in only 15, can you beat that? Maybe, if you keep trying. In the meantime, you’re still getting the rewards for beating the dungeon each time you try.
But the when your goals are rewards (as is the case for many people) you would look what content rewards the currency you need best and start grinding that. That is the reality. What I find interesting is that in my example you say it’s bad for people to do the content multiple times, while here you suggest they do it just for the fun.
Nonetheless, reality has shown us what happed. There is nothing stopping you from increasing your time, but what happens is that people simply will do something else. The leaderboards are a good solution for this and might create some incentive, but when chasing rewards this is still not an interesting option.
But anyways, yeah, the occasional “try it once, beat it, and get a prize” is a fun addition, it’s the desert after dinner, but it can’t be the primary form of content in an MMO, even a game as well funded as WoW cannot keep up that pace.
No, so first I added RNG to fix thig, but then you said that would still be a grind (while completely different). So then I removed the RNG and added the challenge. But then that was not good because it would be too hard for people not willing to improve their skills.
(and no, “B2P box sales alone” and “subscriptions” are both off the table).
Lol, just as “skill improvements as progress” was of the table in the previous post?
So every time something gets in the way of your logic it’s “off the table”.
Also with any solution anybody gives, you say it’s not good because of something.. while that something might just as well be part of your own solution.
Sorry, but when you start talking like that you start to sound like a troll who is not trying to find a solution, or is trying to have a discussion, but who is just trying to dismiss everything.
Now maybe they could put those rewards also behind specific hard content..
But of course the items used here would have to be unique to content, not something also on the gem store. Gem store content will always remain exclusive to the gem store.
Exclusive to the gem-store.. well and available for brainless grinding.. Just not as accessible for people completing challenging content you mean?
Remember that I said you could have 3 rewards depending on the difficulty. Then make second hardest always one of the gem-store items, and do that with all the gem-store items.
Yeah, no, it’d be nice, of course, but it’s not going to happen, just like it’d be nice if tornadoes just stopped happening for no apparent reason. They will not implement rewards that steal money out of their own pocket, that would be lunacy.
Yet they are willing to “steal money out of their own pocket” by making it accessible to brainless grinders.
Hard content is not the problem, problem are rewards for this content which will be green and blue items as usual.
Remember, hard content without proper rewards will be failed content like that 3 worm boss.
hard content must be rewarded properly.
Teq and TT are grindy because it’s content that gets grinded (especially Teq) for it’s general good loot. That general good loot instead of specific loot, is part of the problem. Many people do that content, so to keep the items unique they have to make a really really low drop-rate and that is why it gets grindy and earning the gold becomes the most viable option again.
First, you can’t get teq weapons for gold. Second, you are basically saying the the system you propose works well only when just a small number of people are doing the content with limited rewards. Yet you are also advocating unique rewards as an incentive so that more people would be doing that content. That doesn’t seem too well thought out, wouldn’t you say?
It is. Just easy math. First of all, I said it does not work with content that already gets grinded heavily.. that is different from saying only a small amount of people should do it.
Now the math. 5 people do 5 different things (the content that rewards the best), in total doing 10 runs (based on amount time they play).. How many times is everything done? (5 * 10) / 5 = 10.
Now you spread out people over more content because they all have specific items.. So now 5 people do 50 different things, in total still doing 10 runs.
(5*10) / 50 = 1.
Personally I think that when you put most items behind specific content and don’t make the content very rewarding in other ways, or don’t make a grind culture.
Grinding for items is in no way better (or worse) than grinding for gold. “Grinding culture” as you called it, is created by having to repeat the same content many times before getting the desired reward. This is unlikely to go away, regardless of the difficulty of the content.
It is a huge difference for many people.
Rewards behind specific content does not have to be repetitive / grind.
Of course not, but the rewards exclusive to the difficult content were proposed as a way to keep the participation levels up in the long run… which means they will need to be based aroud replayability, repetition and grind, or they won’t fulfill their function. And if they won’t fulfill their function, they are not needed in the first place.
[/quote]
When you have enough of that content, and the hardest difficulty, is hard enough, you should be able to keep people busy until new content is added.
1. Then the content is not challeging enough.
No. You’ve just set an impossible standard. If the content is challenging enough to keep the high skilled players engaged then it is completely impossible for most players to ever achieve it. Think of it as a 20/60/20 situation, 20% high skilled, 60% medium skilled, 20% low skilled. Congratulations, you’ve just moved all 80% of the “less than high skilled” players into the “32” camp I described, the disgruntled burnouts who had lost all hope for the future. That is a game killed of Wildstar proportions.
2. I do not see that as a fail.. They can try to get better at it, and as long as they don’t the price indeed it out of reach for them. (you know, like with most games.. winning the world champions, means you need to become better or else you will never win that). I think more people will move (have moved) away getting bored by the grind as we have now.
It’s not about whether you see it as a fail or not, they do, and they are the ones deciding whether they are leaving or not.
3 They will need to do it a few times to get better indeed. But in your example where people grind a currency they also need to do things multiple times so why is it suddenly a problem.
I described it elsewhere, but basically, for most people, succeeding at something fun many times over is more enjoyable than failing at something annoying many times over. If you’re going to be doing something ten times, most people would prefer to win ten times, winning even more efficiently each time, than failing nine times and winning the tenth just barely. There are clinical terms to describe the other sort of person.
Not to mention that everybody is better in some things and worse in others. So your moderately skilled will be able to do multiple things in one or just a few tries. But there will indeed also be content that will then take them longer.
True, but since you’ve locked specific rewards behind specific content, if everything they want is locked behind content they are good at, then they fall into group 1, beating it easily and moving on, while if anything they want is trapped behind content they are terrible at then they fall towards group 2, and burn out. It’s a terrible place to be, the Straight of Messina.
Remember the wizards hat example, where you said that would be unbalanced.. but if it was balanced it would be good (that’s basically what you seem to suggest there). well this is a way to balance it. The ‘grind’ is now completely based on the difficulty of the content.
This would not “balance it out.” This si you just flat out saying "I don’t care that it’s unbalanced, I like it, therefore we’ll call it balanced and move on from that topic.
“(and no, “training” doesn’t count)." Why not, because then your reasoning would fall apart? I would thing training, getting a bit further, or closer or faster for sure counts.
No. Progress is actual, measured progress. It is having in hand one of ten tokens that you need to earn the item, not maybe being slightly better in run four than in run five, and therefore maybe likely to be better still in run six. Some people like that, but not as many as you seem to insist.
But the when your goals are rewards (as is the case for many people) you would look what content rewards the currency you need best and start grinding that. That is the reality.
If you are in it for the reward, and one method is WAY better than another, most people will take that method. If you are in it for the reward, and one method is slightly better than another, then many people will take that path, but many will choose the alternate paths, even if they are less efficient. For all that people complain about the current vogue “Silverwastes farming,” the people who actually do that make up only a tiny fraction of the game’s population at any given time. Most players are out doing some other activities, dungeons, world boss trains, DT, champ farming on other maps, etc. Give players choices, and they will take them.
What I find interesting is that in my example you say it’s bad for people to do the content multiple times, while here you suggest they do it just for the fun.
Getting them to do something multiple times is necessary. The goal is to make it as likely as possible that they will enjoy doing it multiple times. That each run will be fun for them. The way to do that is to make the best effort possible to allow them to do the activities that they enjoy doing, and feel rewarded for that, and to NOT pressure them into activities that they don’t enjoy, because they don’t feel they will get the reward they want any other way.
No, so first I added RNG to fix thig, but then you said that would still be a grind (while completely different). So then I removed the RNG and added the challenge. But then that was not good because it would be too hard for people not willing to improve their skills.
Yes, both are bad, because still at the end of the day you are forcing them to repeat that one thing over and over until they get their prize. There is no way to make that work for everyone. There will be people who like the content, and they will be fine with that, and there will be people who don’t like the content, and they will not be fine with that. This is why you need to give them the option to do something else entirely instead. If they don’t like running dungeons at all, let them farm open world,. let them run JPs, let them do any meaningful activity and progress in some manner towards the goal that they want.
At the end of the day, for the overall player population, I would say for any given reward, it goes
A. “A variety of gameplay styles and difficulties, any of which lead towards your chosen goal”
B. “A single gameplay style that involves repeatedly beating a dungeon with a token system that adds up to eventually earning the reward”
C. “A single gameplay style that involves repeatedly beating a dungeon with an RNG system that will randomly give you the item on your first, or 50th attempt”
D. “A single gameplay type that involves getting the item the first time you beat it, but is hard enough that the overwhelming majority don’t beat it quickly.”
A>B>C>D
Now individual opinions will vary greatly, people who are very skilled, or have aspirations to be very skilled will like D better, because chances are it;ll be faster for them than most people, gamblers will take their chances with C over B, but ultimately that’s the order I see it as being most healthy for the overall game’s population, especially for a game with GW2’s community.
(edited by Moderator)
So every time something gets in the way of your logic it’s “off the table”.
No, just every time it flies in the face of reality. I take a similar stance with climate change deniers.
Sorry, but when you start talking like that you start to sound like a troll who is not trying to find a solution, or is trying to have a discussion, but who is just trying to dismiss everything.
I don’t appreciate that sort of talk, but it isn’t going to make me any more likely to agree with you on issues where we cleanly disagree.
Exclusive to the gem-store.. well and available for brainless grinding.. Just not as accessible for people completing challenging content you mean?
If you mean that you can grind for gold, convert that gold to gems, and buy it off the gem store (or buy it on the TP from people who bought it off the gem store), then you’re still always talking about ANet making cash money to support the game. Any gems you buy with gold are gems someone paid cash money for. So however you get an item into your hands, ultimately you paid ANet cash for it, and they need that cash to keep making the game. They will not reduce the number or quality of items that they intend to make cash money on.
Now, if you can figure out a way that they can make cash money directly off of people doing this “challenging content for gem store items” thing, then go for that. Maybe people would have to buy a Gem store ticket for every chance at the challenging content? Personally I’d find that a nightmare.
Yet they are willing to “steal money out of their own pocket” by making it accessible to brainless grinders.
This leads me to believe that you don’t understand how the gem store functions in the gold economy. You do understand that every time someone buys a BLTC greatsword skin on the TP for a few hundred gold, ANet has pocketed somewhere around $4-5 maybe (I’m sure they have more exact figures, but they don’t talk about it). I mean, sure, there are technically ways to get keys for free, but all of them combined probably don’t add up to a fraction of the total market (and I factored them into that $4-5 figure, otherwise it’d be more like $10 each).
No, this content fails in all possible ways.
1. It fails to maintain skilled players. They will probably skip the easier modes entirely and complete the hard mode relatively quickly, and then they’re out of the loop. You have failed to maintain their interest for any reasonable amount of time.
2. It fails the highly unskilled. They will never be able to complete the hard mode, meaning the prize is permanently out of reach, which will make them frustrated and enjoy the game less. After several failed attempts, they will give up entirely and if you’re very lucky, move to other things rather than quitting the game entirely. The more often you present them with this experience, the more likely the latter is to be.
3. It also fails the moderately skilled, because they won’t be able to beat hard mode on the first try, but as that’s the mode they want to be doing, they will keep trying, and failing, and face the same frustrations as the unskilled group. Nobody will be satisfied with the sub-hard modes unless they provide meaningful progress towards the harder mode’s rewards (and no, “training” doesn’t count). Now some of those moderately skilled players, even though they could potentially pass hard mode eventually, will just decide it’s not worth the hassle and mode on, just like group 2. Some will stick with it, and perhaps even enjoy pushing that boulder up the hill every day, only to see it roll down over them, but ultimately this is a degenerative gaming experience and should not be encouraged.
1. Then the content is not challeging enough.
2. I do not see that as a fail.. They can try to get better at it, and as long as they don’t the price indeed it out of reach for them. (you know, like with most games.. winning the world champions, means you need to become better or else you will never win that). I think more people will move (have moved) away getting bored by the grind as we have now.
3 They will need to do it a few times to get better indeed. But in your example where people grind a currency they also need to do things multiple times so why is it suddenly a problem. Not to mention that everybody is better in some things and worse in others. So your moderately skilled will be able to do multiple things in one or just a few tries. But there will indeed also be content that will then take them longer.
Remember the wizards hat example, where you said that would be unbalanced.. but if it was balanced it would be good (that’s basically what you seem to suggest there). well this is a way to balance it. The ‘grind’ is now completely based on the difficulty of the content.
“(and no, “training” doesn’t count)." Why not, because then your reasoning would fall apart? I would thing training, getting a bit further, or closer or faster for sure counts.Anyway, when you seem to dismiss everything and the reasons for it then I am really interesting in your solution? Because I have a feeling, everything you point out here why something we suggest would not work… also exists in your solution.. in fact in exist in all solutions with the exception of one.. giving everything out for free. But that would really result in a dull game.
Yeah, beating the dungeon wasn’t that hard, but it took you 25 minutes. That other group was able to do it in only 15, can you beat that? Maybe, if you keep trying. In the meantime, you’re still getting the rewards for beating the dungeon each time you try.
But the when your goals are rewards (as is the case for many people) you would look what content rewards the currency you need best and start grinding that. That is the reality. What I find interesting is that in my example you say it’s bad for people to do the content multiple times, while here you suggest they do it just for the fun.
Nonetheless, reality has shown us what happed. There is nothing stopping you from increasing your time, but what happens is that people simply will do something else. The leaderboards are a good solution for this and might create some incentive, but when chasing rewards this is still not an interesting option.
But anyways, yeah, the occasional “try it once, beat it, and get a prize” is a fun addition, it’s the desert after dinner, but it can’t be the primary form of content in an MMO, even a game as well funded as WoW cannot keep up that pace.
No, so first I added RNG to fix thig, but then you said that would still be a grind (while completely different). So then I removed the RNG and added the challenge. But then that was not good because it would be too hard for people not willing to improve their skills.
1. Skill is not a term like on or off. What is skilled for you, may be too hard or too easy for me.
2. Bad example. You, me or anybody on this board is unable to beat Usain Bolt and become world running champion, regardless of the time we train, how young or old we are or how hard we try. So if you want to be a world champion, you have to aim for another endeavor or resign yourself to the fact that, while you can take part in the world championship if you really try, requiring of course that you are a trained world class athlete from the beginning, you will never win it. And i am pretty sure that Usain Bolt has not to try to run against for example a 65 year old granddad that jogs in the morning. And the world athletics association surely is not in the weird position of being forced to bundle people like Usain Bolt and the jogging granddad in one bracket at the world championship like Anet is forced to do.
Besides, every athlete at that world championship goes out of them with a consolidation prize, either in sponsoring money from their respective countries or with an advertisment deal if they are lucky and good enough. Even the worst soccer team of a given first class soccer league, be it English, German, Italian or Spanish, gets a boatload of money for showing up alone to play. So ss long as there is no consolidation prize for people that are at least trying to beat the hard content, any outcry for hard to reach prizes is uncalled for in my eyes.
3. Glass wall effect too. At some point, you hit a barrier you can´t breach, despite your best effort.
2. I do not see that as a fail.. They can try to get better at it, and as long as they don’t the price indeed it out of reach for them. (you know, like with most games.. winning the world champions, means you need to become better or else you will never win that). I think more people will move (have moved) away getting bored by the grind as we have now.
It’s not about whether you see it as a fail or not, they do, and they are the ones deciding whether they are leaving or not.
I think you missed a few announcements. they are implementing such a system for PvP.
Not to mention that everybody is better in some things and worse in others. So your moderately skilled will be able to do multiple things in one or just a few tries. But there will indeed also be content that will then take them longer.
True, but since you’ve locked specific rewards behind specific content, if everything they want is locked behind content they are good at, then they fall into group 1, beating it easily and moving on, while if anything they want is trapped behind content they are terrible at then they fall towards group 2, and burn out. It’s a terrible place to be, the Straight of Messina.
That is why you need to make sure it’s done all over the place with nearly all content a all items. Also there should not only be a difference in difficulty within the content, but also between the content.
Then, when chasing rewards it’s unlikely every item you like happens to be behind content you find easy,, and everything you dislike happens to be behind content you can’t complete. I mean it could happen, but is extremely unlikely.
What is more likely that everybody has stuff lucked behind content he finds easy, content he finds challeging, content that is now just out of reach but he might get with a bid of practice and content that is to hard for him… however when working to get the items that are just out of reach for him, he increases his skill. By the time he is able to get that, some of the rewards he would first define as out of reach might now be accesible with some practice.
~
1. Then the content is not challeging enough.
2. I do not see that as a fail.. They can try to get better at it, and as long as they don’t the price indeed it out of reach for them. (you know, like with most games.. winning the world champions, means you need to become better or else you will never win that). I think more people will move (have moved) away getting bored by the grind as we have now.
3 They will need to do it a few times to get better indeed. But in your example where people grind a currency they also need to do things multiple times so why is it suddenly a problem. Not to mention that everybody is better in some things and worse in others. So your moderately skilled will be able to do multiple things in one or just a few tries. But there will indeed also be content that will then take them longer.
Remember the wizards hat example, where you said that would be unbalanced.. but if it was balanced it would be good (that’s basically what you seem to suggest there). well this is a way to balance it. The ‘grind’ is now completely based on the difficulty of the content.
“(and no, “training” doesn’t count)." Why not, because then your reasoning would fall apart? I would thing training, getting a bit further, or closer or faster for sure counts.Anyway, when you seem to dismiss everything and the reasons for it then I am really interesting in your solution? Because I have a feeling, everything you point out here why something we suggest would not work… also exists in your solution.. in fact in exist in all solutions with the exception of one.. giving everything out for free. But that would really result in a dull game.
Yeah, beating the dungeon wasn’t that hard, but it took you 25 minutes. That other group was able to do it in only 15, can you beat that? Maybe, if you keep trying. In the meantime, you’re still getting the rewards for beating the dungeon each time you try.
But the when your goals are rewards (as is the case for many people) you would look what content rewards the currency you need best and start grinding that. That is the reality. What I find interesting is that in my example you say it’s bad for people to do the content multiple times, while here you suggest they do it just for the fun.
Nonetheless, reality has shown us what happed. There is nothing stopping you from increasing your time, but what happens is that people simply will do something else. The leaderboards are a good solution for this and might create some incentive, but when chasing rewards this is still not an interesting option.
But anyways, yeah, the occasional “try it once, beat it, and get a prize” is a fun addition, it’s the desert after dinner, but it can’t be the primary form of content in an MMO, even a game as well funded as WoW cannot keep up that pace.
No, so first I added RNG to fix thig, but then you said that would still be a grind (while completely different). So then I removed the RNG and added the challenge. But then that was not good because it would be too hard for people not willing to improve their skills.
1. Skill is not a term like on or off. What is skilled for you, may be too hard or too easy for me.
2. Bad example. You, me or anybody on this board is unable to beat Usain Bolt and become world running champion, regardless of the time we train, how young or old we are or how hard we try. So if you want to be a world champion, you have to aim for another endeavor or resign yourself to the fact that, while you can take part in the world championship if you really try, requiring of course that you are a trained world class athlete from the beginning, you will never win it. And i am pretty sure that Usain Bolt has not to try to run against for example a 65 year old granddad that jogs in the morning. And the world athletics association surely is not in the weird position of being forced to bundle people like Usain Bolt and the jogging granddad in one bracket at the world championship like Anet is forced to do.
Besides, every athlete at that world championship goes out of them with a consolidation prize, either in sponsoring money from their respective countries or with an advertisment deal if they are lucky and good enough. Even the worst soccer team of a given first class soccer league, be it English, German, Italian or Spanish, gets a boatload of money for showing up alone to play. So ss long as there is no consolidation prize for people that are at least trying to beat the hard content, any outcry for hard to reach prizes is uncalled for in my eyes.
3. Glass wall effect too. At some point, you hit a barrier you can´t breach, despite your best effort.
1. That is exactly what I said as reason why it’s good. What is easy for me is hard for you and the other way around so there will always be things I can get, things that are a bid harder but doable and so on.
2. There might be items unreachable for all of us. While most are not, some likely are. So it fits perfectly.
3. That might indeed happen, then that content really is out of reach for them (see 2) while I think that with PvE content, this is unlikely, their might be some. The trick is for Anet to release the next expansion by the time people are running the glass wall on all the content left.
Ok here is the process.
Item is released, player thinks “oh I want that!”, player finds out how to get it, does it and gets the reward.
If the “how to get it” is ANYTHING, you immediately do the easiest method because you WANT the item.
THEN YOU CLEARLY CARE MORE ABOUT THE ITEM THAN THE CONTENT.
Why don’t you understand? Or do you think if someone wants something they will deliberately handicap themselves trying to get it?
I don’t understand because it makes no sense. People keep saying how they enjoy harder content. How they want harder content. How they want the journey.
And yet they aren’t willing to take that journey unless they are absolutely forced to.
So if you have to be forced to take that journey, how could you possibly care about the journey? If you have to be forced to do the content, how good or enjoyable could that content really be?
If your first thought when seeing what you can do is “I’ll take the easiest route”, then you don’t actually like challenging content as much as you freaking claim.
Do you people choose easy mode on a game with multiple difficulties and then complain that the game didn’t give you enough of a challenge? Do you avoid hard mode because “why put in the effort in those games”?
dude, no one care about how other people get their rewards. What people care is the reward is crap if they have a easier way to get it.
But what makes the reward crap if there’s an easier way to get it? This is what I don’t get. This is what I don’t agree with.
If you think it becomes a waste of time just because of that, then your FULL ATTENTION is clearly towards the ITEM and NOTHING ELSE.
You want the samething too. You just enjoy easier content more.
Right, but I’m not saying to put rewards behind only easy content, because the reward doesn’t become worthless to me if it’s behind both sets of content, (as long as it’s behind both sets of content.)
now if you simply want candy, then second rule is great, but its still a crappy game, with nice candy.
THEN STOP CREATING SUCH RULES THAT CREATE THAT MUCH OF A kittenING GAP.
I’m sorry, but it’s not my problem that you think everything in this game short of Teq/TT/whatever is the equivalent of reaching into the bag and just taking a piece of kitten candy. If the game is THAT easy for you, you should have found a harder game to sate you AGES ago, because clearly this game never challenged you in the slightest and was going to take forever to catch up to your standards.
Maybe you should have supported Wildstar.
I am pretty sure that anyone who comes to any world championship is there to win it if they are not the novelty of the year act like Vanessa May was at some point. If I knew from the start that i don´t even have the chance to be world champion, i surely would not take part in the event if I did not get offered something in return. And no ,sweat and rage are not a currency I would accept, also no interest in doing it to become better at something that should be fun, not work.
As we´re not at work in GW2, I think players can indeed demand to get a copy of the world championship trophy even if they are unable to just win it.
If you really want a championship item, maybe just make it a championship instead of a regular content? Anet loves Championships in PvP, why not in PvE?
And no ,sweat and rage are not a currency I would accept, also no interest in doing it to become better at something that should be fun, not work. As we´re not at work in GW2, I think players can indeed demand to get a copy of the world championship trophy even if they are unable to just win it.
So when someone has to try something multiple times (and fail a lot) until they get it right is like work?
When you play a game and hit a wall that cannot pass, you try to be better so you pass it or you put it aside and never go back? I’m of the first type and I’m sure many players are too. The feeling of succeeding in what you couldn’t do before is part of it.
That’s not “work”, that’s enjoyment, that’s how all sports work, heck that’s how forms of entertainment work, when you are actively practising them. Paint, sculpt, write music, write stories, sing? You are saying when someone is trying to become better at something, it’s “work”?
I read this so many times by so many people, that “hard content” is like “work”. We obviously have a very different definition of work.
And no ,sweat and rage are not a currency I would accept, also no interest in doing it to become better at something that should be fun, not work. As we´re not at work in GW2, I think players can indeed demand to get a copy of the world championship trophy even if they are unable to just win it.
So when someone has to try something multiple times (and fail a lot) until they get it right is like work?
When you play a game and hit a wall that cannot pass, you try to be better so you pass it or you put it aside and never go back? I’m of the first type and I’m sure many players are too. The feeling of succeeding in what you couldn’t do before is part of it.
That’s not “work”, that’s enjoyment, that’s how all sports work, heck that’s how forms of entertainment work, when you are actively practising them. Paint, sculpt, write music, write stories, sing? You are saying when someone is trying to become better at something, it’s “work”?I read this so many times by so many people, that “hard content” is like “work”. We obviously have a very different definition of work.
Maybe that depends on where or what you work?
Some people are undoubtfullys happy when they do the same thing every day at work. I also thought for a while that these people just simply have resigned, but now, I think there are people that have even some meditative qualities found in this.
Others need octaine and action at work. I find that principle hard to grasp and lacking, but witnessed it too often to say that it is not there.
I am happy with content that is not too easy, but I want to see a progress. Someone used a comparision here that a guy that tries to beat lupi 5! hours and is unable to beat it, goes then to bed thinking how to beat it, is funny and rewarding. For me personally, that sounds like pure stress and grinding, repetive work at a broken production line because nothing countable came out the whole day.
I am happy with content that is not too easy, but I want to see a progress. Someone used a comparision here that a guy that tries to beat lupi 5! hours and is unable to beat it, goes then to bed thinking how to beat it, is funny and rewarding. For me personally, that sounds like pure stress and grinding, repetive work at a broken production line because nothing countable came out the whole day.
In the Lupi example, your “progress” might be his hit point total. First attempt, got downed on the first hit, second attempt brought him down to 75% hit points, third attempt at 50% and so on. There is progress to be had when you repeat (and fail) at content. I wouldn’t say I’d go to bed and feel excited about it… I’d rather search for help and find someone that can help me pass that, like I did nearly 3 years ago when I first reached Simin in Arah P4, than try for 5 hours on my own.
There is a reason a lot of “hard” bosses in MMORPGs have phases, so you learn their individual phase mechanics and progress one by one. When you manage to defeat phase 1 you start practising phase 2, until you reach the final stage and beat the boss.
In any case you ARE making some progress. Each 1% of hp you bring the boss down, or each new phase you unlock is progress.
Well this thread exploded… I only followed it to page 8… has anything changed or is it still just:
Player 1: I want all the unique rewards given to me for free without having to do the content
Player 2: I think we should have to earn unique rewards by doing challenging content.
I’m assuming that is pretty much still where we are at?
Well this thread exploded… I only followed it to page 8… has anything changed or is it still just:
Player 1: I want all the unique rewards given to me for free without having to do the content
Player 2: I think we should have to earn unique rewards by doing challenging content.I’m assuming that is pretty much still where we are at?
It would be if anyone was saying “Give it to me for free”.
But since nobody is, you are in fact wrong.
Why not just have separate rewards for “easy mode” and “hard mode”?
Personally, i think there should always be something for the elite to earn, its not an elitist thing – its a logical “self entitlement avoiding” conclusion. People who work hard to complete difficult content should be rewarded differently from the guy who strolled the easy path.
SAB is a prime example: same items for everyone doing it BUT different colour depending on the difficulty scale you chose.
if the problem is wanting a certain reward but not having it be behind a certain difficulty then can’t quantity fix the problem. Like you can get all the same stuff doing normal and hard mode, but hard mode you get a higher quantity of rewards for the added effort? everyone can get what they want then and hard mode is rewarding, as it should be.
Well this thread exploded… I only followed it to page 8… has anything changed or is it still just:
Player 1: I want all the unique rewards given to me for free without having to do the content
Player 2: I think we should have to earn unique rewards by doing challenging content.I’m assuming that is pretty much still where we are at?
Yeah that’s still where we’re at, I’ll be fair and say player 1 is more “I want to be guaranteed to get everything I want” which isn’t much better.
Why don’t you understand? Or do you think if someone wants something they will deliberately handicap themselves trying to get it?
I don’t understand because it makes no sense. People keep saying how they enjoy harder content. How they want harder content. How they want the journey.
And yet they aren’t willing to take that journey unless they are absolutely forced to.
So if you have to be forced to take that journey, how could you possibly care about the journey? If you have to be forced to do the content, how good or enjoyable could that content really be?
If it was a single player game they’d stop and take the long and ineffective route purely to enjoy the journey because it’s the only factor.
This is not a single player game there are other factors, to beat the other players you have to play effectively or it is not a wise use of game time and other players will catch up to you. (Thus the handicapping yourself comment).
Again the core difference is the belief that the game is not a competition vs the believe that the game is a competition.
Unique rewards for higher levels of competition, not uniformly rewarding people, and focusing on a minority are all perfectly acceptable and expected things in a competitive environment. Along with not having the expectation that you will be guaranteed to reach your goal.
Expected responses:
1. GW2 is “casual” its not competitive/can’t be competitive.
A: Competition takes many forms from the fairly relaxed like a coin toss/ friendly game of poker, all the way up to high stakes with high consequences like a war or Olympic level competition. Pretty much as long as there’s 2 players and something to fight over, there’s a competition.
2. No one plays like that.
A: I’m describing the base attitude, they may not actively think like that but their actions and language they’ll use are based loosely on that principle.
3. That’s not fun I want the game to be fun.
A: People always find ways to have fun within the competition, usually by setting personal goals and the like, If you truely believe that structure of game is not fun then I have bad news for you because it’s unlikely to change, people will play far more/ invest more effort into something if it’s competitive vs just have instant fun. Their gratification is delayed and comes either in the form of victory and its rewards, or in good fights that forced you to go all out and created unique experiences and stories to share.
(edited by Conski Deshan.2057)
Ok here is the process.
Item is released, player thinks “oh I want that!”, player finds out how to get it, does it and gets the reward.
If the “how to get it” is ANYTHING, you immediately do the easiest method because you WANT the item.
THEN YOU CLEARLY CARE MORE ABOUT THE ITEM THAN THE CONTENT.
Why don’t you understand? Or do you think if someone wants something they will deliberately handicap themselves trying to get it?
I don’t understand because it makes no sense. People keep saying how they enjoy harder content. How they want harder content. How they want the journey.
And yet they aren’t willing to take that journey unless they are absolutely forced to.
So if you have to be forced to take that journey, how could you possibly care about the journey? If you have to be forced to do the content, how good or enjoyable could that content really be?
If your first thought when seeing what you can do is “I’ll take the easiest route”, then you don’t actually like challenging content as much as you freaking claim.
Do you people choose easy mode on a game with multiple difficulties and then complain that the game didn’t give you enough of a challenge? Do you avoid hard mode because “why put in the effort in those games”?
dude, no one care about how other people get their rewards. What people care is the reward is crap if they have a easier way to get it.
But what makes the reward crap if there’s an easier way to get it? This is what I don’t get. This is what I don’t agree with.
If you think it becomes a waste of time just because of that, then your FULL ATTENTION is clearly towards the ITEM and NOTHING ELSE.
You want the samething too. You just enjoy easier content more.
Right, but I’m not saying to put rewards behind only easy content, because the reward doesn’t become worthless to me if it’s behind both sets of content, (as long as it’s behind both sets of content.)
now if you simply want candy, then second rule is great, but its still a crappy game, with nice candy.
THEN STOP CREATING SUCH RULES THAT CREATE THAT MUCH OF A kittenING GAP.
I’m sorry, but it’s not my problem that you think everything in this game short of Teq/TT/whatever is the equivalent of reaching into the bag and just taking a piece of kitten candy. If the game is THAT easy for you, you should have found a harder game to sate you AGES ago, because clearly this game never challenged you in the slightest and was going to take forever to catch up to your standards.
Maybe you should have supported Wildstar.
i am far from the most hardcore challenging player.
Never beat triple trouble, dont do speed runs, havent gotten around to getting fractals 50 yet.
That doesnt mean these goals, and some sort of incentive to do them should not exist.
also, the point of the candy example was to show people why how rewards are obtained does effect the game.
yes, one can get candy by chasing their friend, but the candy becomes of no real value as a reward since you can get it easier another way.
If you understand that concept, then yes, we can move on to theoretically balancing other aquisition methods for the candy.
problem is, as soon as you create other aquisition methods, you automatically set up a relationship between the two activities.
lets say method 2 is catching butterflies.
now someone has to figure out how to compare the value of catching butterflies to chasing a friend.
If designer decides that catching you should have to catch 15 butterflies to get 1 candy, it seems like he is saying catching butterflies is inferior to tag. Now butterflu hunters feel like they are inferior.
If designer decides 5 candies for 1 butterfly, its like hes saying you should be catching butterflies.
now even if he comes up with the perfect ratios, what about when jimmy finds the butterfly hideout. he basically takes a stick goes to sleep, and 20 butterflies land on it, he gets 20 candies, once you know this, getting candy from running is now a waste of time. Sure you can run for fun, but the candy itself is no longer an incentive increasing your enjoyment of playing tag
the more possible benefits hunting butterflies are attached to, the more things no longer have appealing incentives, once people find an easy path.
this is a point of failure in game reward design, where the rewards no longer are compelling. When the best way to play a game, is to ignore the reward system, the reward system is failing at its purpose
and thats the thing, a fractal weapon is not designed to be charachter customization, it is designed to be an incentive to play fractals. So if you want to make it cosmetic only, what would be a compelling reward for playing fractals now that you take away cosmetics?
I am happy with content that is not too easy, but I want to see a progress. Someone used a comparision here that a guy that tries to beat lupi 5! hours and is unable to beat it, goes then to bed thinking how to beat it, is funny and rewarding. For me personally, that sounds like pure stress and grinding, repetive work at a broken production line because nothing countable came out the whole day.
In the Lupi example, your “progress” might be his hit point total. First attempt, got downed on the first hit, second attempt brought him down to 75% hit points, third attempt at 50% and so on. There is progress to be had when you repeat (and fail) at content. I wouldn’t say I’d go to bed and feel excited about it… I’d rather search for help and find someone that can help me pass that, like I did nearly 3 years ago when I first reached Simin in Arah P4, than try for 5 hours on my own.
There is a reason a lot of “hard” bosses in MMORPGs have phases, so you learn their individual phase mechanics and progress one by one. When you manage to defeat phase 1 you start practising phase 2, until you reach the final stage and beat the boss.
In any case you ARE making some progress. Each 1% of hp you bring the boss down, or each new phase you unlock is progress.
I don´t agree with the HP total concept, it is of absolutely no consequence for me if a mob has 60% or 65% left when I wipe. Not that I think that it is not the case for some people, but I personally don´t memorize every attempt I make for something in detail, just the general idea and strategy I used.Then I try it maybe for 5 to 10 times, hit a brickwall with my tactic before being frustrated. If in a really competitive mood, I may try again at the same day after a break, but not very likely.
That motivation sinks even further if there is a way to go to the mob, from a waypoint or something like that, it´s a little bit insult added to injury.
The phase concept is much better, there you indeed have a visible progress, but it does not have to be a days filling quest to just reach phase 2.
Give me a game world where it really matters what your toon does faction wise, and I´ll follow you straight to the gates of hell to obtain the exquisite item if your cause is noble, funny or epic.
But I don´t really see the point to get the championship (to stay in that line of thought) in a semi-mobile and kind of development-senile Game world like Tyria where WvW is reset every week, Orr never changes despite 2 ingame years passing and a giant centaur army will never brand against the walls of Lions Arch. I kind of had a feeling like that with ls1 sometimes, and if there would have been a possibilty of Scarlet winning andplayers could have avoided it, you would have needed a crowbar to get me away from the screen.
In Tyria, a copy of the world championship is fully sufficient. Sadly.
If it was a single player game they’d stop and take the long and ineffective route purely to enjoy the journey because it’s the only factor.
This is not a single player game there are other factors, to beat the other players you have to play effectively
No, to beat the others players, those other players have to be actively competing with you. GW2 PVE is NOT a competitive environment. You can’t beat me, because I was never competing with you in the first place. Same goes for PVP and WVW. You can’t compete against me if I never entered the race to begin with.
But thank you for proving my original statement right: It’s about lording it over other players. It’s about being NUMBAH ONE!!!
or it is not a wise use of game time and other players will catch up to you. (Thus the handicapping yourself comment).
So in other words, you do in fact have a problem with other people being on the same plane as you. You want there to be haves and have nots, in order to prove you are better. So like I said so long ago, it’s about you stroking your ego.
SO THEN WHY DID YOU RUN ME AROUND IN kittenING CIRCLES THIS WHOLE TIME SWEARING UP AND DOWN IT WAS ABOUT SOME JOURNEY YOU NEVER EVEN CARED ABOUT!?
You wanna talk about wasting time? You just wasted a whole lot of mine.
if the problem is wanting a certain reward but not having it be behind a certain difficulty then can’t quantity fix the problem. Like you can get all the same stuff doing normal and hard mode, but hard mode you get a higher quantity of rewards for the added effort? everyone can get what they want then and hard mode is rewarding, as it should be.
this is not a horrible solution, some people have suggested it, the problem becomes the balance and the realities of such a solution.
as i said, in another post, you are basically telling people how much more valuable one task is compared to another, essentially pricing that type of play.
even though on paper its a play how you want system, in a reality its a play optimally system. Not only that, but it can negatively alter the gameplay.
If i say you can get this legendary sword by beating this hard fight, or by killing 10000 bandits
basically if it turns out its easier to beat the hard fight, the reward sucks for killing bandits, if it turns out the bandits is easier, the reward sucks for the hard fight. If they are well balanced both people may be satisfied.
but now you have created a new type of play where people run and gather all the bandits in an area and everyone is supposed to use low dmg gear so every one can get credit on the bandit train. Anyone in a party is unlikely to get bandit claim credit. People who arent in the bandit train are not supposed to kill bandits. All drops from bandits now flood the markets, lowering the value of people who may be engaged in totally different activities, but share a loot table with bandit items.
This is the type of problems you get, and have to solve, whereas if the rewards are unique, you dont have to worry about ecomomic concerns, perfect balance, relative value, and one exploit effecting a lot of other types of reward systems.
That doesnt mean these goals, and some sort of incentive to do them should not exist.
HOW IS THE INCENTIVE LOST IF YOU LIKE THAT CONTENT!?
Quit saying you like the content. Quit saying you like challenging content. If you choose the easier method for the same reward despite preferring the harder content then you don’t actually like the harder content. You like the item, and the item is the only thing you like.
Or you know, it’s because what you actually like about the item is that only you have it and there are others who do not.
Which is what I said to begin with.
yes, one can get candy by chasing their friend, but the candy becomes of no real value as a reward since you can get it easier another way.
Then you very clearly don’t actually care about chasing your friend. You don’t find chasing your friend fun. You only care about the item that chasing your friend gives you.
and thats the thing, a fractal weapon is not designed to be charachter customization, it is designed to be an incentive to play fractals.
Then fractals clearly are not as fun as people like to claim.
So if you want to make it cosmetic only, what would be a compelling reward for playing fractals now that you take away cosmetics?
How about leaderboards? How about titles? Why aren’t those compelling? What about a trophy that gets placed in your home instance, or a trophy that when you click it, is placed on the ground in front of you for a set time that works like a package (like the box of chocolates or bobble head stand)
Ahhhhh man this thread is a hoot and a half! Seems like people just can’t decide how hard or even what challenging content should be. Ahhh well, we’ll just see when the big announcement comes out. I just hope it’ll be fun, and from the looks and feel of the beta area, it will be rather interesting.
I don´t agree with the HP total concept, it is of absolutely no consequence for me if a mob has 60% or 65% left when I wipe. Not that I think that it is not the case for some people, but I personally don´t memorize every attempt I make for something in detail, just the general idea and strategy I used.Then I try it maybe for 5 to 10 times, hit a brickwall with my tactic before being frustrated. If in a really competitive mood, I may try again at the same day after a break, but not very likely.
That motivation sinks even further if there is a way to go to the mob, from a waypoint or something like that, it´s a little bit insult added to injury.
The phase concept is much better, there you indeed have a visible progress, but it does not have to be a days filling quest to just reach phase 2.
Someone might go to phase 2 first try, another after 2 hours, another after 1 month. Every player is different what is easy or hard for you is hard or easy for someone else, you can’t put limits like “after 5 attempts I should get it, otherwise it’s a grind”.
Otherwise it’s the same as if you want to succeed at everything after only a couple of tries. If there is a set number of “tries” then why even try and not have everything handed to you when you start the content?
You are not supposed to try it until you get it on a single day. You might fail then come again later, if you fail too many times it gets frustrating. Stop and come back the next day with a fresh mind to try new tactics. You might need to change builds completely, like in the Mystery Cave LS2 part having extra stability helps a LOT. No matter how many times you try and how good you play, without some good form of stability or invulnerability, or blocks, some achievements are just too hard to get.
You might need to bring a friend to help, or ask someone who has done it for pointers. There are many players willing to help if you ask them. I don’t think having content that is beatable by everyone on day one is good content. Sometimes you might need to ask for help or watch a video or too for pointers and help, that builds a good community, especially the GW2 community, which outside speed clear zerker groups I’ve found it to be very friendly and ready to help. This type of content builds strong guilds that try and fail together at content.
My guild failed our first couple of attempts at the Southsun Challenge. We adapted and found tactics that work on it and since then we never failed it. You don’t get that kind of feeling if everything is doable by everyone. Similar with Tequatl which was possible only with organized teams but now even random pugs bring him down.
But what makes the reward crap if there’s an easier way to get it? This is what I don’t get. This is what I don’t agree with.
If you think it becomes a waste of time just because of that, then your FULL ATTENTION is clearly towards the ITEM and NOTHING ELSE.
you are the one who is talking about rewards this whole time.
you are the one that want to do “easy content” to get the rewards.
maybe that question can be returned to you. You are not too different from other those you pointed at.
I never said Anet should make the rewards exclusive to hardcontent. I’m only saying why people are thinking the way they are thinking.
Anet can also put the rewards in easy content, but hard in another way. Kind of like ascended trinket or ring which you can either get from guild mission or fractals, but you can also buy from the vendor. It is just really expensive and time gated. So you still need to put in the effort to get it.
you are the one that want to do “easy content” to get the rewards.
Because easy content is generally the content I enjoy. So I want to be able to do that content to get the rewards I like.
. You are not too different from other those you pointed at.
Really, you don’t see the difference in what’s being said?
I never said Anet should make the rewards exclusive to hardcontent. I’m only saying why people are thinking the way they are thinking.
And I’m saying the way people are thinking with that makes no freaking sense.
Anet can also put the rewards in easy content, but hard in another way. Kind of like ascended trinket or ring which you can either get from guild mission or fractals, but you can also buy from the vendor.
And if you hadn’t noticed, there are people in this thread saying that isn’t acceptable, because they’ll just buy it from the vendor, instead.
It is just really expensive and time gated. So you still need to put in the effort to get it.
But according to people in this thread, that’s apparently not effort. And it’s not good enough. The reward has to be from the hard content and ONLY the hard content. Have you not read a single thing they’ve been saying?
if the problem is wanting a certain reward but not having it be behind a certain difficulty then can’t quantity fix the problem. Like you can get all the same stuff doing normal and hard mode, but hard mode you get a higher quantity of rewards for the added effort? everyone can get what they want then and hard mode is rewarding, as it should be.
That is exactly what Anet did try. But it turns out is extremely hard to balance it and in GW2 is results in people doing the easy content twice (while watching a movie on the other screen) instead of the hard content once.
Also it’s still jus a number you slowly see increasing until the moment you have the number you require (the amount of gold / currency you need). Not a very exciting form of progression imho.
if the problem is wanting a certain reward but not having it be behind a certain difficulty then can’t quantity fix the problem. Like you can get all the same stuff doing normal and hard mode, but hard mode you get a higher quantity of rewards for the added effort? everyone can get what they want then and hard mode is rewarding, as it should be.
That is exactly what Anet did try. But it turns out is extremely hard to balance it and in GW2 is results in people doing the easy content twice (while watching a movie on the other screen) instead of the hard content once.
Also it’s still jus a number you slowly see increasing until the moment you have the number you require (the amount of gold / currency you need). Not a very exciting form of progression imho.
If they balance out the currency some more it can work. But the “easy” version needs to account both for lower skill level players doing the harder content AND the number of tries/attempts required to finally finish the content in the first place.]
How possible is that is the big question
That doesnt mean these goals, and some sort of incentive to do them should not exist.
HOW IS THE INCENTIVE LOST IF YOU LIKE THAT CONTENT!?
Quit saying you like the content. Quit saying you like challenging content. If you choose the easier method for the same reward despite preferring the harder content then you don’t actually like the harder content. You like the item, and the item is the only thing you like.
Or you know, it’s because what you actually like about the item is that only you have it and there are others who do not.
Which is what I said to begin with.
yes, one can get candy by chasing their friend, but the candy becomes of no real value as a reward since you can get it easier another way.
Then you very clearly don’t actually care about chasing your friend. You don’t find chasing your friend fun. You only care about the item that chasing your friend gives you.
and thats the thing, a fractal weapon is not designed to be charachter customization, it is designed to be an incentive to play fractals.
Then fractals clearly are not as fun as people like to claim.
So if you want to make it cosmetic only, what would be a compelling reward for playing fractals now that you take away cosmetics?
How about leaderboards? How about titles? Why aren’t those compelling? What about a trophy that gets placed in your home instance, or a trophy that when you click it, is placed on the ground in front of you for a set time that works like a package (like the box of chocolates or bobble head stand)
i didnt say the content is not compelling, i said the incentive is not compelling. The candy is not doing its job as being a compelling incentive to play.
The tag game is no better for having candy attached to it, REWARDS IN GAME DESIGN ARE MEANT TO ENHANCE THE GAME.
a reward that does not enhance the objective is not doing its job.
a reward that you must ignore to enjoy the game is a failed reward
Rewards are fundamental to Game Design. Having the right Rewards is key to making sure players feel their is value to their actions. Keep in mind rewards are not necessarily physical or even things like points, sometimes acknowledgment and status are the most important rewards.
Do players care about your rewards?
Do you have unique rewards that players will cherish?
Do your rewards seem to be appropriate for the level of difficulty it takes to acquire them?
Can you possibly give players a choice in what kind of rewards they get?
the stuff im talking about here isnt crazy talk.
rewards in a game are there to drive gameplay. if players must ignore rewards for engaging gameplay, then the reward system is totally failing at its job.
What you keep saying is that if i liked challenging content i would ignore the rewards, thats a bad game design.
you also said i like that others dont have it, i dont care, i have no idea how many others have any item. I think i have seen more liadri minis than i have seen people in this https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Pit_Fighter_armor armor set. its about rewarding content properly.
and leaderboards is a bad reward for most players, they dont place high enough, also they exist outside the game world. Perhaps if the made a in game leaderboard system with interesting benefits, like npcs treat you different or you get discounts, or special consumables, that scales well from low rank to high rank, but that would be a rather large change.
titles are boring for many players, I dont even remember what title im using, but some people like em, i dont think its compelling for a lot of players though
home instance anything isnt very compelling, most people never even realize it exists. This may be because the home instance itself is not well done, but making home instances more cool, while awesome is a large endeavor. Wildstar had pretty compelling home instances, but for gw2, home instance stuff is pretty bleh for most players.
Also i think the type of players looking for PVE challenge dont have a huge overlap with home instances.
(edited by phys.7689)
People in this thread, that’s apparently not effort. And it’s not good enough. The reward has to be from the hard content and ONLY the hard content. Have you not read a single thing they’ve been saying?
I don’t have a problem with the rewards being available to for example laurels or a simular HoT currency, being seriously time gated.
However, for every single player actually doing or trying to do hardcore content, the hardcore content should still be the best way to get this item by far.
I’ve said before i have no problem with some bosses being super easy at the start, and them dropping for example 1 token, while endbosses and really hard stuff drops 10-20 tokens. I even don’t have a problem with the worldbosses in HoT, if there are any, dropping some tokens/day. I just want to make sure that even a casual who attempts hardcore content after a while, should have an incentive to do so.
Let’s say hardcore content atm has 3 armor sets, and a full weapon set. There should be no way that non-hardcore people get all this stuff within a year. It will take most hardcore people, if it’s decent hard content, a serious time to get trough this. And then they have to farm it. I don’t mind having multiple ways to gain rewards if you really want 1 item, however i feel that owning all these items, should still be something only the hardcore content players get to do. Don’t lock anyone out, but if you don’t play the content, you’ll have to choose wich reward you want, because it will take you longer.
Oh for the love of… You are cherry picking parts of my argument and ignoring the parts where I answer/explain your response preemptively. Last attempt,
If it was a single player game they’d stop and take the long and ineffective route purely to enjoy the journey because it’s the only factor.
This is not a single player game there are other factors, to beat the other players you have to play effectivelyNo, to beat the others players, those other players have to be actively competing with you. GW2 PVE is NOT a competitive environment. You can’t beat me, because I was never competing with you in the first place. Same goes for PVP and WVW. You can’t compete against me if I never entered the race to begin with.
They don’t have to be actively competing, If I win a match/move up a leaderboard I have beaten someone without having directly fought them. Heck by having a computer and broadband connection sufficent for an MMO you’re beating 99% of the world, are they competing against you? no the statement is still valid.
Just because you’re claiming that you’re not competing does not mean the game is not a competitive environment. Are you seriously going to claim PvP and WvW are not a competitive environment? If you don’t step foot in PvP those other players are still beating you by virtue of your base score being 0, If your world loses WvW on a certain week , that’s your loss even if you’re not competing.
But thank you for proving my original statement right: It’s about lording it over other players. It’s about being NUMBAH ONE!!!
Being number one is an unrealistic goal, it is about advancing as far as you are able and making do with what you can etch out for yourself.
Also being number one does not mean they are lording it over other players, the number one player could say curb stomp the entirety of your guild but would never do so or even care about you.
The idea that players are vindictively trying to “lord” things over you is silly for the most part. Them having something unique and being proud of it, is not them rubbing it in your face or actively being out to get you. (Some people do but they are a very small % of the elite group (heck sometimes they’re not even elites, just kitteny average players) and are the ones you’d call elitist.)
or it is not a wise use of game time and other players will catch up to you. (Thus the handicapping yourself comment).
So in other words, you do in fact have a problem with other people being on the same plane as you. You want there to be haves and have nots, in order to prove you are better. So like I said so long ago, it’s about you stroking your ego.
I have zero problem with people being on the same “plane” as me, heck my entire group is roughly on the same level. I am perfectly happy for anyone who gets their reward within the game structure.
I.E if the reward is for finishing x in under 10 minutes then I’m fine with anyone who does so getting it.
What I am not ok with is players getting that same reward, for say failing 10 times, or picking flowers on another map, or any activity other than that specific one.
They did not successfully complete the objective and thus do not get the reward.
SO THEN WHY DID YOU RUN ME AROUND IN kittenING CIRCLES THIS WHOLE TIME SWEARING UP AND DOWN IT WAS ABOUT SOME JOURNEY YOU NEVER EVEN CARED ABOUT!?
You wanna talk about wasting time? You just wasted a whole lot of mine.
You are equally wasting mine then , because for the 3rd time in this thread (and has been repeatedly stated to you by others too).
LIKING THE JOURNEY AND LIKING/WANTING THE REWARDS ARE NOT MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE.
http://www.darklegacycomics.com/412
A fun little comic.
(edited by Conski Deshan.2057)
i didnt say the content is not compelling, i said the incentive is not compelling. The candy is not doing its job as being a compelling incentive to play.
But if the content is not compelling without there also being a compelling reward attached, then the content isn’t actually compelling.
a reward that does not enhance the objective is not doing its job.
And I keep asking you why the reward ceases to be compelling when it is available through multiple avenues.
The only logical conclusion is that on its own, the content is not compelling. If the content only becomes compelling the moment a reward is attached THEN THE CONTENT IS NOT GOOD CONTENT.
a reward that you must ignore to enjoy the game is a failed reward
In order to enjoy the game, I must ignore fractal weapons.
Fractal weapons are now a failed reward.
In order to enjoy the game, I must ignore Teq rewards.
Teq rewards are a failed reward.
In order to enjoy the game, I must ignore glorious armor.
Glorious armor is a failed reward.
…Why are you arguing against me, exactly?
What you keep saying is that if i liked challenging content i would ignore the rewards, thats a bad game design.
NO I AM NOT.
I am saying that if you liked challenging content, and liked the reward, you would do the challenging content.
But you keep failing to tell me what makes the reward less desirable the moment it isn’t tied only to challenging content. Why does it lose value to you? Why is it suddenly lesser?
If you like the reward, and the challenging content is fun, why are you doing the other content instead?
Until you answer that question, I am going to ignore any more of your posts directed my way.
I am saying that if you liked challenging content, and liked the reward, you would do the challenging content.
But you keep failing to tell me what makes the reward less desirable the moment it isn’t tied only to challenging content. Why does it lose value to you? Why is it suddenly lesser?
If you like the reward, and the challenging content is fun, why are you doing the other content instead?
Until you answer that question, I am going to ignore any more of your posts directed my way.
I may in fact do the challenging content, but i wont be doing it with the reward as an objective. The reward is not enhancing my experience of doing the content. The reward can be in fact reducing my enjoyment. Because while i am doing it, i am thinking this is extremely ineffecient.
liking challenge and liking effeciency is not mutually exclusive. Most human beings like effeciency regardless of whether they like challenge or not.
why do you think this was in the article
Do your rewards seem to be appropriate for the level of difficulty it takes to acquire them?
i like challenge and i dont like being ineffecient. does that seem crazy to you?
like i said, they could create systems that scale rewards based on various activity, but that sort of thing is generally hard to balance, prone to exploits, creates degenerative play, etc.
and to be clear the reward does not lose its basic value, it loses its value in terms of being an incentive to do X. this cuts both ways.
If the reward is better obtained from challenge, then it sucks as a reward for easy.
If the reward is better obtained from easy, then it sucks as a reward for challenge.’
It only works when the reward is perfectly balanced which rarely happens.
(edited by phys.7689)
They don’t have to be actively competing,
Yeah, they kind of do. You can’t just draft people into a competition. That is not how it works at all.
If you enter a triathlon and I don’t, how exactly have you beaten me? I was never a competitor, so you can’t beat me. You can only beat the other people that were in the triathlon.
Heck by having a computer and broadband connection sufficent for an MMO you’re beating 99% of the world, are they competing against you?
no the statement is still valid.
No it’s not. I’m not competing against them. They aren’t competing against me. I haven’t beat anyone by having a computer and internet. I’m not superior to them because I have these things. That’s ridiculous.
Just because you’re claiming that you’re not competing does not mean the game is not a competitive environment.
Actually, yeah, it does. I don’t know if you noticed, but this game was set up a cooperative type MMO, rather than a competitive one like WoW. There are no formal world firsts in this game or anything like that, to begin with.
If you don’t step foot in PvP those other players are still beating you by virtue of your base score being 0, If your world loses WvW on a certain week , that’s your loss even if you’re not competing.
No it’s not. I was never “on the team”, I was never competing. You can’t just decide I have lost somehow when I never joined the competition to begin with, nor wanted to be a part of the competition.
You can’t just point at me and say “You’re in this competition, now!” because I will look you square in the eye, say “no”, and walk away. And you won’t be able to then say “Ha, I win!”. No judge on the planet will award you anything for that.
Being number one is an unrealistic goal, it is about advancing as far as you are able and making do with what you can etch out for yourself.
Okay, so do the challenging content, and I’ll do the content that I feel advances me as far as I wish to advance, and we’ll both get the items we want while doing it.
There, everybody wins.
The idea that players are vindictively trying to “lord” things over you is silly for the most part.
No more silly than the idea that I am somehow competing with you when I haven’t agreed to any competition.
I have zero problem with people being on the same “plane” as me,
You clearly do, because you have decided that you have beaten me when I was never in your stupid competition to begin with. Otherwise, why would you go through the trouble of claiming victory over me? (in the theoretical competition you are in and I am not, whatever those may be)
What I am not ok with is players getting that same reward, for say failing 10 times, or picking flowers on another map, or any activity other than that specific one.
And if the structure was changed so that all of those rewarded the item?
No, you would still not be okay with it. Because “reasons” that totally aren’t about being above other people. Totally.
LIKING THE JOURNEY AND LIKING/WANTING THE REWARDS ARE NOT MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE.
SO THEN DO THE CONTENT YOU LIKE TO GET THE REWARD YOU LIKE, SO THAT YOU CAN ENJOY BOTH THE JOURNEY AND THE REWARD.
If there are multiples way to get an item, and you choose the journey that is least fulfilling, that is on you and nobody else.
Have you not read a single thing they’ve been saying?
why are you arguing about everything to me. I’m not him nor I am you. I’m expressing my point of view. Other people not me are expressing theirs just like you are expressing yours.
My point of view is it’s ok the reward isn’t exclusive. But it should be as hard in terms of effort, so people are still willing to do the hard content. But there are alternative path, which while isn’t about doing hard content it is as hard in effort.
And you can always get the rewards you like from doing easy content. You just want to get all the rewards you want. And if other people can get it, you can’t, it bothers you. Which I dont’ understand why. It’s not like you have every legendary in the game(at least I guess you dont’).
Not affiliated with ArenaNet or NCSOFT. No support is provided.
All assets, page layout, visual style belong to ArenaNet and are used solely to replicate the original design and preserve the original look and feel.
Contact /u/e-scrape-artist on reddit if you encounter a bug.