Some people don't like hard mode
This is a very slippery slope which usually leads to nothing more than harsher forms of elitism. This game like most every other mmorpg before has already established meta’s that preclude many types of players, classes, gear etc. and the last thing it needs is more of the same. I always laugh at how many people cry for seriously challenging gaming and most of the ones designed specifically for that minority die out quite quickly, I’m looking at you Wildstar. Granted I’m not for or against just recognizing it for what it really is.
Anyway I will reserve further judgment until I hear their proposal for this but I see this as just another divisive element being introduced.
Vini, Vidi, Vici, Viridis…I came, I saw, I conquered…I got a green??
(edited by Vlad Morbius.1759)
My point of view is it’s ok the reward isn’t exclusive. But it should be as hard in terms of effort, so people are still willing to do the hard content. But there are alternative path, which while isn’t about doing hard content it is as hard in effort.
Then why are you arguing with me? Because as I’ve said, what I’m for is people being able to do the content they enjoy to reach the rewards they want.
Which is exactly what your point of view seems to be. You were the one that responded to me in a manner suggested you didn’t agree.
And you can always get the rewards you like from doing easy content. You just want to get all the rewards you want.
Well, yeah, because if I want them, then obviously I like them, and as such I want to do content I enjoy to get rewards I enjoy. But I can’t do that if the rewards are tied to exclusive content.
And if other people can get it, you can’t, it bothers you.
No, see you’re adding to much to that sentence.
What bothers me is if I can’t get the item, period, full stop. Because if I want an item, it’s because I like the item in question. I don’t care who else has the item. I don’t care if everyone in the game has the item.
Which I dont’ understand why. It’s not like you have every legendary in the game(at least I guess you dont’).
I don’t. I in fact have zero legendaries. I also have zero precursors, so you know, kind of part of the problem. But I also don’t like the overwhelming majority of the legendaries that are currently available. So I don’t go after them. And I still wouldn’t go after the majority of them whether they were only tied to easy content or hard content, or both. Because I don’t like them.
I may in fact do the challenging content, but i wont be doing it with the reward as an objective. The reward is not enhancing my experience of doing the content. The reward can be in fact reducing my enjoyment. Because while i am doing it, i am thinking this is extremely ineffecient.
Then once again, the reward matters more to you. If you enjoyed the content, why would you feel like it was inefficient doing it?
i like challenge and i dont like being ineffecient. does that seem crazy to you?
Yes, because by its very nature, challenging content is inefficient. That’s why it’s a challenge. If you could do it efficiently, then it wouldn’t be hard, it would be easy. When you become efficient at something, that something stops being difficult, because you have mastered how to avoid the difficulty.
and why do you keep trying to quantify what matters more? do you realize that when you like two things, having to choose one or the other is undesirable? Often causing people to refuse to choose? Which child do you love more? Do you like food, or painting more. Do you like your career or your girlfriend more.
the point is i like effeciency AND challenge.
Most people like effeciency. Most people drive to work, even if traffic is annoying, because they like effeciency. They may enjoy bike riding or walking more, but they are in the car cursing at people.
But give them the same job with same pay, where they can walk to work and they quit
no, challenging content is not by its nature ineffecient.
is playing a piano ineffecient?
is learning to paint?
is working out ineffecient?
is solving an equation ineffecient?
all of these things have exclusive rewards, they are all challenging, in fact in the case of the equation, it may in fact be way more effecient to solve the equation
even when you have mastered something it can still be challenging. It can still be engaging. Challenging isnt always about rate of success, its often about how much effort, and ability and engagement it requires to succeed.
My point of view is it’s ok the reward isn’t exclusive. But it should be as hard in terms of effort, so people are still willing to do the hard content. But there are alternative path, which while isn’t about doing hard content it is as hard in effort.
Then why are you arguing with me? Because as I’ve said, what I’m for is people being able to do the content they enjoy to reach the rewards they want.
My impression is you are saying other people is wrong.
No one is wrong. Everyone is just expressing what they want.
I’m not sure what you want is the popular opinion though. And Anet most likely will choose what the majority wants. And judging from what Anet is doing to pvp ladder(exclusive pvp rewards), I’m not sure if Anet will give you what you want.
If more people voice the same opinion as you. Anet will probably accept your opinion. Kind of like how ascended trinket is added in laurel or Anet making guild mission easily doable for small guilds since many people voice their opinion.
and why do you keep trying to quantify what matters more?
Because logic. Because if you cared about both equally or even close to equally, you would in fact choose to do challenging content to get the reward. So if you’re choosing instead to do the easier content, then either the reward matters more than the content portion to you, the content isn’t actually as fun as you think it is, or you don’t actually like that type of content at all.
do you realize that when you like two things, having to choose one or the other is undesirable?
Of course I do. Do you realize that? I don’t think you do.
Because, with your method, I would have to choose between never getting the reward I would like to get, or doing content I do not like to get that reward.
But you’re perfectly okay with that!
the point is i like effeciency AND challenge.
And my point is that you literally cannot have both. It isn’t possible.
Most people like effeciency. Most people drive to work, even if traffic is annoying, because they like effeciency. They may enjoy bike riding or walking more, but they are in the car cursing at people.
Because they get fired from their job if they aren’t on time, and their job is too far away for walking or bike riding to actually be a feasible alternative.
It is not at all the same thing.
But give them the same job with same pay, where they can walk to work and they quit
Then they are 100% stupid.
no, challenging content is not by its nature ineffecient.
Yes it is.
is playing a piano ineffecient?
is learning to paint?
is working out ineffecient?
is solving an equation ineffecient?
YES, IN THE BEGINNING.
And then you become efficient with it, and as such, it becomes easier, because you know the ins and outs.
even when you have mastered something it can still be challenging.
If it’s still challenging in some way, then you haven’t mastered it.
It can still be engaging.
Easy content can be engaging too.
My point of view is it’s ok the reward isn’t exclusive. But it should be as hard in terms of effort, so people are still willing to do the hard content. But there are alternative path, which while isn’t about doing hard content it is as hard in effort.
Then why are you arguing with me? Because as I’ve said, what I’m for is people being able to do the content they enjoy to reach the rewards they want.
My impression is you are saying other people is wrong.
No one is wrong. Everyone is just expressing what they want.
I’m not sure what you want is the popular opinion though. And Anet most likely will choose what the majority wants. And judging from what Anet is doing to pvp ladder(exclusive pvp rewards), I’m not sure if Anet will give you what you want.
If more people voice the same opinion as you. Anet will probably accept your opinion. Kind of like how ascended trinket is added in laurel or Anet making guild mission easily doable for small guilds since many people voice their opinion.
There is a thread every other day saying “X is too hard”, or something along those lines.
I highly doubt a majority is asking for more challenging content. I’d also like to remind you that ANet has put in challenging content several times, and most of that content gets abandoned by all but a small few until that content is made easy by some change.
They don’t have to be actively competing,
Yeah, they kind of do. You can’t just draft people into a competition. That is not how it works at all.
If you enter a triathlon and I don’t, how exactly have you beaten me? I was never a competitor, so you can’t beat me. You can only beat the other people that were in the triathlon.
This is a fun quote, you did in fact sign up for the competition, your presence in the game is automatic participation. (Like in say EVE, you may not want your ship to be blown up but someone can come along and do it anyway like it or not because you are in the game.)
Your argument on rewards is essentially you signed up for a triathlon, have decided you only want to do the cycling part but still expect the reward for full participation.
Or
A school example, you’ve decided you don’t like maths and are not going to participate in it. You are now locked out of a whole range of future career options and will have a lower overall score. Your passive decision not to participate still has consequences.
Heck by having a computer and broadband connection sufficent for an MMO you’re beating 99% of the world, are they competing against you?
no the statement is still valid.No it’s not. I’m not competing against them. They aren’t competing against me. I haven’t beat anyone by having a computer and internet. I’m not superior to them because I have these things. That’s ridiculous.
I mean that in a purely statistical way, your combined wealth, quality of life etc are objectively to a higher standard then theirs. Thus you are in that sense “beating” them.
Again you’re interpreting competition as a very “in your face” affair. Competition occurs passively too.
Just because you’re claiming that you’re not competing does not mean the game is not a competitive environment.
Actually, yeah, it does. I don’t know if you noticed, but this game was set up a cooperative type MMO, rather than a competitive one like WoW. There are no formal world firsts in this game or anything like that, to begin with.
No formal world firsts? really I must have hallucinated all that excitement over which group would be first to kill Teq, TT , The marionette etc, where devs were reporting on it.
Even in the non-formal section , first to get a legendary, hit certain achivements, certain ranks on PvP etc, were all things that got attention.
I’m sure when I call you out on saying the whole game is a cooperative MMO you’ll come back with some outdated quote, so I found it for you.
I had a look through “The game” section of the website, and the only mention of cooperative, is specifically to dynamic events " This creates an atmosphere where players naturally cooperate instead of competing with one another. The more the merrier!" Perhaps you took that to include the whole game?
Because I can find several quotes supporting unique rewards and competitive environments too (there’s even an entire section on competitive play).
A-nets actions since release have been towards , exclusive items , fixed rewards for fixed content and a large focus on competition, (The new adventures in HOT are to be competitive, the addition of fractal leaderboards is to encourage competition, the PvP seasons, The WvW seasons all of it is the drive player competition NOT cooperation.
The cooperation aspect still exists but is mostly relegated to the lower end content because it’s less exciting,and there’s no risks.
Being number one is an unrealistic goal, it is about advancing as far as you are able and making do with what you can etch out for yourself.
Okay, so do the challenging content, and I’ll do the content that I feel advances me as far as I wish to advance, and we’ll both get the items we want while doing it.
There, everybody wins.
Thats false equivalence though. Using a 1-10 difficulty scale.
If player A is a D9 class player and B is a D3 class player in your system A gets the reward in maybe 1 hour, while B eventually gets the reward in 3 hours.
While the reality would be no matter how much time player B invests they will never get to difficulty 9 so would never reach that reward.
(I.E if difficulty 9 requires a 280ms response time, while difficulty 3 requires 400ms, no matter how many hours B puts in it is not equivalent.)
It’s not a compromise and it’s not win win, in the end it achieves your goal completely (getting the reward you want) while destroying your opponents goal (Maintaining at least some level of uniqueness/exclusivity on rewards in relation to specific content. For objectively displaying more ability)
[RoF] and [BL] guild leader
11x level 80’s 80+ Titles 2600+ skins , still a long way to go.
11x level 80’s 80+ Titles 2600+ skins , still a long way to go.
This is a very slippery slope which usually leads to nothing more than harsher forms of elitism. This game like most every other mmorpg before has already established meta’s that preclude many types of players, classes, gear etc. and the last thing it needs is more of the same. I always laugh at how many people cry for seriously challenging gaming and most of the ones designed specifically for that minority die out quite quickly, I’m looking at you Wildstar. Granted I’m not for or against just recognizing it for what it really is.
Anyway I will reserve further judgment until I hear there proposal for this but I see this as just another divisive element being introduced.
QFT
In most games, Casuals are the majority. In GW2, Casuals are the game. Azumi.9572
PvE is a grind, why would we want that grind to be harder?.
The term Exploit means nothing in GW2 –
Vials Maize Balm Exploit(Halloween) 2014
Locked out of JP (Wintersday) 2015
Vials Maize Balm Exploit(Halloween) 2014
Locked out of JP (Wintersday) 2015
and why do you keep trying to quantify what matters more?
Because logic. Because if you cared about both equally or even close to equally, you would in fact choose to do challenging content to get the reward. So if you’re choosing instead to do the easier content, then either the reward matters more than the content portion to you, the content isn’t actually as fun as you think it is, or you don’t actually like that type of content at all.
do you realize that when you like two things, having to choose one or the other is undesirable?
Of course I do. Do you realize that? I don’t think you do.
Because, with your method, I would have to choose between never getting the reward I would like to get, or doing content I do not like to get that reward.
But you’re perfectly okay with that!
the point is i like effeciency AND challenge.
And my point is that you literally cannot have both. It isn’t possible.
Most people like effeciency. Most people drive to work, even if traffic is annoying, because they like effeciency. They may enjoy bike riding or walking more, but they are in the car cursing at people.
Because they get fired from their job if they aren’t on time, and their job is too far away for walking or bike riding to actually be a feasible alternative.
It is not at all the same thing.
But give them the same job with same pay, where they can walk to work and they quit
Then they are 100% stupid.
no, challenging content is not by its nature ineffecient.
Yes it is.
is playing a piano ineffecient?
is learning to paint?
is working out ineffecient?
is solving an equation ineffecient?YES, IN THE BEGINNING.
And then you become efficient with it, and as such, it becomes easier, because you know the ins and outs.
even when you have mastered something it can still be challenging.
If it’s still challenging in some way, then you haven’t mastered it.
It can still be engaging.
Easy content can be engaging too.
My point of view is it’s ok the reward isn’t exclusive. But it should be as hard in terms of effort, so people are still willing to do the hard content. But there are alternative path, which while isn’t about doing hard content it is as hard in effort.
Then why are you arguing with me? Because as I’ve said, what I’m for is people being able to do the content they enjoy to reach the rewards they want.
My impression is you are saying other people is wrong.
No one is wrong. Everyone is just expressing what they want.
I’m not sure what you want is the popular opinion though. And Anet most likely will choose what the majority wants. And judging from what Anet is doing to pvp ladder(exclusive pvp rewards), I’m not sure if Anet will give you what you want.
If more people voice the same opinion as you. Anet will probably accept your opinion. Kind of like how ascended trinket is added in laurel or Anet making guild mission easily doable for small guilds since many people voice their opinion.
There is a thread every other day saying “X is too hard”, or something along those lines.
I highly doubt a majority is asking for more challenging content. I’d also like to remind you that ANet has put in challenging content several times, and most of that content gets abandoned by all but a small few until that content is made easy by some change.
i paint, and i play music, its still challenging. It actually gets deeper the more you do it.
and doing an equation is still more challenging than trial and error to solve equations.
Working out also requires consistent effort, and it doesnt really get any easier. aside from the curve going from no work out, to working out consistently.
and yea, i guess i dont like rewards that much, because i just end up not doing much content at all.
the content i most enjoyed doing was fractals and SAB but people got cheesy with fractals, spamming the easiest instabilities for progress, so that is less entertaining, and SAB no longer exists.
dont get me wrong there are other entertaining things, certain jump puzzles, certain dynamic events if they arent over crowded, etc, but most i have either done to death, or have no compelling reason to participate in anymore.
This is a fun quote, you did in fact sign up for the competition
No, I did not. That would only be true if the open world had PVP enabled, and it does not. WVW and PVP are instanced areas. You cannot force me to compete in them because I can literally walk away from them, even so far as exiting the game.
Next you’ll tell me that we’re in a competition for who can log in and exit the game faster!
The competition is in YOUR head and nobody elses’
, your presence in the game is automatic participation. (Like in say EVE, you may not want your ship to be blown up but someone can come along and do it anyway like it or not because you are in the game.)
EVE is a horrible example because it is strictly a PVP environment. You’re SUPPOSED to compete with people in EVE, that’s why it’s set up the way it is.
The only thing I did by signing up for the game is sign up for the game. I don’t even have to set foot in PVP, as such, I am not competing. This isn’t the Hunger Games.
Your argument on rewards is essentially you signed up for a triathlon, have decided you only want to do the cycling part but still expect the reward for full participation.
No, my argument is that I signed up for a series of events that aren’t even competitive, and actually expect me to work together with other people.
A school example, you’ve decided you don’t like maths and are not going to participate in it. You are now locked out of a whole range of future career options and will have a lower overall score. Your passive decision not to participate still has consequences.
Math as a class isn’t a competition, though. Your school example makes no freaking sense.
I mean that in a purely statistical way, your combined wealth, quality of life etc are objectively to a higher standard then theirs. Thus you are in that sense “beating” them.
But again, I’m not. Because I’m not trying to beat them at anything. I didn’t get the computer to have a better life than them. I didn’t obtain wealth, or quality of life, or any of that to be better than anyone or to compete with anyone.
I’m not beating them in a statistical way because beating them implies I was trying to compete with them when it came to those things.
The kind of competition you are trying to foster is the reason the US government is such a joke. They’re so busy trying to beat the other party that they forgot they were supposed to be working for the country. Your type of competition is entirely degenerate.
Again you’re interpreting competition as a very “in your face” affair. Competition occurs passively too.
No it doesn’t. Competition by it’s very nature is “in your face”, that’s WHY it’s a competition. Because two people are competing against one another for a similar goal because only one of them can actually attain that goal because there is only one of that goal.
You have to compete for first place because only one person can be in first.
No formal world firsts? really I must have hallucinated all that excitement over which group would be first to kill Teq, TT , The marionette etc, where devs were reporting on it.
Sure, they reported on it.
And then did nothing else. There are no “Feats of Strength” in this game. There are no titles denoting world first. There are no achievements for being world first. there are no rewards for being world first.
Even in the non-formal section , first to get a legendary, hit certain achivements, certain ranks on PvP etc, were all things that got attention.
And that’s all they got. Attention. Five minutes of fame.
I had a look through “The game” section of the website, and the only mention of cooperative, is specifically to dynamic events " This creates an atmosphere where players naturally cooperate instead of competing with one another. The more the merrier!" Perhaps you took that to include the whole game?
Dynamic events, dungeons, nodes, world bosses, the entirety of the non-instanced world, basically.
The cooperation aspect still exists but is mostly relegated to the lower end content because it’s less exciting,and there’s no risks.
Really? Cause fractals and TT and all that “fun” stuff are still very much cooperative. You aren’t gonna solo TT on your own.
It’s not a compromise and it’s not win win, in the end it achieves your goal completely (getting the reward you want) while destroying your opponents goal (Maintaining at least some level of uniqueness/exclusivity on rewards in relation to specific content.
So in other words, I was right, from the start.
I said originally the people that don’t like this idea are the ones that want to be special snowflakes. They want to be unique, they want to have that which others do not or cannot have to prove how awesome they are.
And you just confirmed that.
But people swore up and down, up and down, that no. It was about the journey. It was about the challenge. It wasn’t about being better than someone.
But every time you bring up competition, you’re proving that IT IS about just that. It’s about being better than someone else. All the while claiming that no, that wasn’kitten
If you had just admitted it from the beginning, a lot of time could have been saved.
Teq and TT are grindy because it’s content that gets grinded (especially Teq) for it’s general good loot. That general good loot instead of specific loot, is part of the problem. Many people do that content, so to keep the items unique they have to make a really really low drop-rate and that is why it gets grindy and earning the gold becomes the most viable option again.
First, you can’t get teq weapons for gold. Second, you are basically saying the the system you propose works well only when just a small number of people are doing the content with limited rewards. Yet you are also advocating unique rewards as an incentive so that more people would be doing that content. That doesn’t seem too well thought out, wouldn’t you say?
It is. Just easy math. First of all, I said it does not work with content that already gets grinded heavily.. that is different from saying only a small amount of people should do it.
Now the math. 5 people do 5 different things (the content that rewards the best), in total doing 10 runs (based on amount time they play).. How many times is everything done? (5 * 10) / 5 = 10.
Now you spread out people over more content because they all have specific items.. So now 5 people do 50 different things, in total still doing 10 runs.
(5*10) / 50 = 1.
If you look at a Teq fight (which is where we started), your example breaks completely. It’s hardly the “content that rewards the best” – it doesn’t even come close to SW, for example. People do it because they either enjoy to do it, or because they want teq specific drops. And yet it is also a horrible grind. What gives you reason to think that duplicating content like that will turn out differently?
Personally I think that when you put most items behind specific content and don’t make the content very rewarding in other ways, or don’t make a grind culture.
Grinding for items is in no way better (or worse) than grinding for gold. “Grinding culture” as you called it, is created by having to repeat the same content many times before getting the desired reward. This is unlikely to go away, regardless of the difficulty of the content.
It is a huge difference for many people.
Sure. Notice however, that there are people that consider either side to be better than other. In the end, one grind is in no way superior to the other (except, as you said, for personal preferences, that differ among people).
Rewards behind specific content does not have to be repetitive / grind.
Of course not, but the rewards exclusive to the difficult content were proposed as a way to keep the participation levels up in the long run… which means they will need to be based aroud replayability, repetition and grind, or they won’t fulfill their function. And if they won’t fulfill their function, they are not needed in the first place.
When you have enough of that content, and the hardest difficulty, is hard enough, you should be able to keep people busy until new content is added.
that would require churning out only the challenging content, at an absurd rate. No matter how difficult the content, if it is possible to finish it, it will be done by first groups within days, weeks at most. Within a month or two, anyone that will be able to ever pass it, will pass it (excluding new players, of course). The only thing that upping the difficulty will do is to lower the pool of people able to finish it ever.
No developer is able to deal with such a turnout rate – and Anet is not really known for their content-creating speed.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
i paint, and i play music, its still challenging.
Because you haven’t mastered it.
and doing an equation is still more challenging than trial and error to solve equations.
I don’t get this example.
Working out also requires consistent effort, and it doesnt really get any easier. aside from the curve going from no work out, to working out consistently.
Sure it does. It’s challenging at first to run a mile. Then you become good at it, and it becomes easy.
Working out is only a constant challenge if you constantly up yourself to the next stage that is hard, again, and again. If you keep lifting 10lb weights, then lifting 10lbs stops being a challenge.
and yea, i guess i dont like rewards that much, because i just end up not doing much content at all.
Sounds like you like neither the rewards nor the content.
the content i most enjoyed doing was fractals and SAB but people got cheesy with fractals, spamming the easiest instabilities for progress, so that is less entertaining
Then get together with people who don’t do that and keep doing fractals.
, and SAB no longer exists.
Don’t remind me.
dont get me wrong there are other entertaining things, certain jump puzzles, certain dynamic events if they arent over crowded, etc, but most i have either done to death
Right, you’re burnt out on them. I get that. But that wouldn’t have changed with challenging content, because you’d eventually burnt out on that. That’s an issue only solvable by NEW content.
There is a thread every other day saying “X is too hard”, or something along those lines.
I highly doubt a majority is asking for more challenging content. I’d also like to remind you that ANet has put in challenging content several times, and most of that content gets abandoned by all but a small few until that content is made easy by some change.
You mean TA aetherblade and wurm?
Probably because the reward is terrible.
Kind of like how fractal are. Even though all those give exclusive rewards, they have to deal with RNG.
People rather do the easy content which give guaranteed and better rewards.
If all the rewards is removed from the easy content. You wont’ do it yourself. At least not repetitively.
This thread can be summed up as “I’m a casual, i don’t want you to have hard content because i won’t want to do it.”
Warrior 80 | Guardian 80 | Ranger 80 | Engineer 80 |
Thief 80 | Elementalist 80 | Mesmer 80 | Necromancer 80 | Revenant TBA
Thief 80 | Elementalist 80 | Mesmer 80 | Necromancer 80 | Revenant TBA
This thread can be summed up as “I’m a casual, i don’t want you to have hard content because i won’t want to do it.”
Actually most of them is ok with other people doing hard content. They just dont’ want those people to get exclusive rewards.
Consider those exclusive rewards wont’ even be created unless anet make those hard content, i’m not sure how it affect them.
You mean TA aetherblade and wurm?
Probably because the reward is terrible.
But it’s exactly the type of reward the challenge junkies are asking for. It is account bound, unique, and rare items that can only be obtained from that content.
Kind of like how fractal are. Even though all those give exclusive rewards, they have to deal with RNG.
Of course they deal with RNG.
You really think they’re just gonna drop that stuff the first time? No MMO has ever done that, challenging content or otherwise. In fact, challenging content is more likely to have RNG because that’s the only way to keep the item rare short of designing content that only 10 or so people can complete, ever.
People rather do the easy content which give guaranteed and better rewards.
Define better rewards, though. I would think that a couple champ bags with measly pittance of greens and blues and a tiny amount of coin would be far less desireable than the Wurmslayer stuff. You know, if people actually cared about exclusive rewards and challenge and all that jazz.
If all the rewards is removed from the easy content. You wont’ do it yourself. At least not repetitively.
Your point?
You mean TA aetherblade and wurm?
Probably because the reward is terrible.
But it’s exactly the type of reward the challenge junkies are asking for. It is account bound, unique, and rare items that can only be obtained from that content.
Many of my aetherblade pug take 3 hours. Wurm take me 1 hours including prep.
In the same amount of time I can make 30 gold and Anet is giving me 1.5 gold and 60 token for aetherblade.
I can do teq in 15 minutes without needing prep, and getting 20k karma and 4 champ bag and 1 gold. Anet is giving me even lesser karma for worum.
You act like the rewards is going to be so amazing for the new challenging content. Most likely it is same as fractal in which people QQ about the RNG and complain about how the reward is crap.
edit: fractal is decent now since you can change ascended stats. Before that people have been QQing on the dungeon forum for a year on how crap the reward is.
(edited by laokoko.7403)
You really think they’re just gonna drop that stuff the first time? No MMO has ever done that, challenging content or otherwise. In fact, challenging content is more likely to have RNG because that’s the only way to keep the item rare short of designing content that only 10 or so people can complete, ever.
Maybe you should realize the aetherblade weapon have less than 2% chance of dropping.
A group would be lucky if they can run it 10 times and it drop for “someone”. Even if it drop it wont’ be for you. And even if a weapon drop it probably wont’ be the weapon you want.
Which mmorpg have people run the same “hard cotnent” 50 times on average for people to get “something” they want. Hack which mmorpg have people run the same content 50 times.
Your point?
Think his point is that everything you do in GW2 is for rewards. If there were no rewards, you wouldn’t do the content you currently “enjoy” either.
There have been no real good reasons why exclusive skins should not be added to challenging content, in my opinion.
They all fall into these categories:
“Because they just shouldn’t!”
“Because then people will feel superior!” (also read: “Because I will feel inferior!”)
“It’s not fair because I want it! But I don’t want to do the requirements so it has to be available to everyone so that I can have it too! If I see someone with a skin I don’t have I would die, I would literally just DIE sobs "
“They just want to be special snowflakes! Screw them!”
Don’t think I’ve missed any.
I won’t stop because I can’t stop.
It’s a medical condition, they say its terminal….
It’s a medical condition, they say its terminal….
There is a thread every other day saying “X is too hard”, or something along those lines.
I highly doubt a majority is asking for more challenging content. I’d also like to remind you that ANet has put in challenging content several times, and most of that content gets abandoned by all but a small few until that content is made easy by some change.
“Challenging” Aetherpath has more “puzzles” and npc RP than actual combat. Only 1 boss in the whole path is somewhat hard. It got abandoned pretty fast because of how boring and timegated it is.
Wurm is easy. It is challenging only for like 10 people that try to organize it. Everyone else just needs to have a brain.
Think his point is that everything you do in GW2 is for rewards. If there were no rewards, you wouldn’t do the content you currently “enjoy” either.
There have been no real good reasons why exclusive skins should not be added to challenging content, in my opinion.
They all fall into these categories:
“Because they just shouldn’t!”
“Because then people will feel superior!” (also read: “Because I will feel inferior!”)
“It’s not fair because I want it! But I don’t want to do the requirements so it has to be available to everyone so that I can have it too! If I see someone with a skin I don’t have I would die, I would literally just DIE sobs "
“They just want to be special snowflakes! Screw them!”
Don’t think I’ve missed any.
How about a marketing reason you maybe missed?
All games that copied the hard raid/good content approach did not do too well, at least not compared to the market giant. Ok, no big deal, but why partially give one of the few stand alone criteria, casual gameplay at any time for anyone with any class, away for a probably small number of recipients?
Or the reason of it´s PvE, who needs exclusive rewards for pros?
According to Anet devs, every player is a PvE player. According to forum visitors, some of them are very good in PvE and want better reward. Others don´t. Why make life harder for the majority of your gamers, assuming that the silent majority not on the forums, is satisfied with their fix of game play?
Or the reason of not trying to achieve the unachievable?
If gaming history teaches you something, then it is that hardcore players are never satisfied. Never. They burn through the content and want more, more, more, preferably yesterday.
I may in fact do the challenging content, but i wont be doing it with the reward as an objective. The reward is not enhancing my experience of doing the content. The reward can be in fact reducing my enjoyment. Because while i am doing it, i am thinking this is extremely ineffecient.
Then once again, the reward matters more to you. If you enjoyed the content, why would you feel like it was inefficient doing it?
I see you and phys argue on about this for multiple pages now, so I will put my point about it here.
First or all, it’s not just the one or the other. The one enhances the other. Specific items behind specific content gives more meaning to the item and to the content. So it’s a combination.
You say “you don’t like the content if you just / mainly do it for the reward” but that is false.
My personal starting point in most MMO’s (Not in GW2 because of the current reward system) is chasing fun items / rewards.. I see something I like and that becomes my goal. So it’s item / fluff / reward based. (whatever you name it)
Then I like that experience of chasing the rewards, setting goals, it sends me all over the world, doing many different types of content, some more challenging then other, having story’s going with the rewards.
Maybe some items require a higher level, but (when the game is designed well) there will be many items I can go for first, and simply by chasing them I eventually end up at the right level for the other item I wanted. Or I get skilled enough to complete the content I was unable to complete before.
But in GW2 it does not work that way.. I see an item, check how to get it’s and there is usually no direct approach, so in most cases it simply comes down to getting gold. So no chasing, exploring all over the world.. no just grinding gold. I however am not doing the grind because I do not like that, while I would do that other content (showing that I indeed like that content better, while indeed it’s reward driven).
That is the big difference. And yes, the same content might be in the game, but it is the chase I am looking for, where the content is the challenge in the way to reach my goal.
I always laugh at how many people cry for seriously challenging gaming.
I don’t think people here are asking for GW2 to be turned into a seriously challenging game.
They just want a mix of content (including challenging content) and a rewards system that enhances the content and the rewards, where harder content also gets better rewards instead of everything being locked behind a brainless grind.
Teq and TT are grindy because it’s content that gets grinded (especially Teq) for it’s general good loot. That general good loot instead of specific loot, is part of the problem. Many people do that content, so to keep the items unique they have to make a really really low drop-rate and that is why it gets grindy and earning the gold becomes the most viable option again.
First, you can’t get teq weapons for gold. Second, you are basically saying the the system you propose works well only when just a small number of people are doing the content with limited rewards. Yet you are also advocating unique rewards as an incentive so that more people would be doing that content. That doesn’t seem too well thought out, wouldn’t you say?
It is. Just easy math. First of all, I said it does not work with content that already gets grinded heavily.. that is different from saying only a small amount of people should do it.
Now the math. 5 people do 5 different things (the content that rewards the best), in total doing 10 runs (based on amount time they play).. How many times is everything done? (5 * 10) / 5 = 10.
Now you spread out people over more content because they all have specific items.. So now 5 people do 50 different things, in total still doing 10 runs.
(5*10) / 50 = 1.If you look at a Teq fight (which is where we started), your example breaks completely. It’s hardly the “content that rewards the best” – it doesn’t even come close to SW, for example. People do it because they either enjoy to do it, or because they want teq specific drops. And yet it is also a horrible grind. What gives you reason to think that duplicating content like that will turn out differently?
Personally I think that when you put most items behind specific content and don’t make the content very rewarding in other ways, or don’t make a grind culture.
Grinding for items is in no way better (or worse) than grinding for gold. “Grinding culture” as you called it, is created by having to repeat the same content many times before getting the desired reward. This is unlikely to go away, regardless of the difficulty of the content.
It is a huge difference for many people.
Sure. Notice however, that there are people that consider either side to be better than other. In the end, one grind is in no way superior to the other (except, as you said, for personal preferences, that differ among people).
Rewards behind specific content does not have to be repetitive / grind.
Of course not, but the rewards exclusive to the difficult content were proposed as a way to keep the participation levels up in the long run… which means they will need to be based aroud replayability, repetition and grind, or they won’t fulfill their function. And if they won’t fulfill their function, they are not needed in the first place.
When you have enough of that content, and the hardest difficulty, is hard enough, you should be able to keep people busy until new content is added.
that would require churning out only the challenging content, at an absurd rate. No matter how difficult the content, if it is possible to finish it, it will be done by first groups within days, weeks at most. Within a month or two, anyone that will be able to ever pass it, will pass it (excluding new players, of course). The only thing that upping the difficulty will do is to lower the pool of people able to finish it ever.
No developer is able to deal with such a turnout rate – and Anet is not really known for their content-creating speed.
There are multiple reasons why people grind the world-bosses. Acting as if the masses only does it for the direct rewards is just a little strange. But obviously some people do.
Well then put all rewards behind specific content, but make 50% of it also not account-bound. While not making that content interesting to grind for anything else (like with the world-bosses). Then you can brainless grind for it if you like as some will come on the TP but just very expensive.
You are partly right, the very best will be done fast that way, but it’s not true you make it impossible for a bigger group. For a bigger group it will just take longer.
To in fact even keep the people busy that complete it fast I am personally in favor off still having some RNG rewards behind specific content.
Then you should easily keep people busy for 1 to 1,5 year and push out the next expansion.
Ohoni.6057:
It’s not about whether you see it as a fail or not, they do, and they are the ones deciding whether they are leaving or not.I think you missed a few announcements. they are implementing such a system for PvP.
The “they” in my example were the players, who would leave if they felt the activity was too frustrating for them to deal with, and do not care whether you feel they are justified in doing so. They likely feel the same way about PvP, whcih is why so few players actually want to engage in it and ANet has to keep upping the bribes.
That is why you need to make sure it’s done all over the place with nearly all content a all items. Also there should not only be a difference in difficulty within the content, but also between the content.
Then, when chasing rewards it’s unlikely every item you like happens to be behind content you find easy,, and everything you dislike happens to be behind content you can’t complete. I mean it could happen, but is extremely unlikely.
But the problem is, when rewards you do want are trapped behind content that you don’t like, it forces you to either do that content (which, I remind you, you do not like), or abandon that reward forever (which, I remind you, you do want). Neither of those choices are good.
So when someone has to try something multiple times (and fail a lot) until they get it right is like work?
Yes, for the most part. Ideally everything can be completed on the first try by a reasonably skilled and conscious player. If not, then it should at least be completed by the second, once you’ve learned the tricks to avoid from the first try. For most activities I take a “three strikes and you’re out” rule, if I lose against it three times, and each try involves a significant amount of time and effort down the tubes, then it’s not worth it. In some cases I’ll stick it out for a few more tries, but ultimately I would never be happier than if I’d just completed it on my first try.
I would rather beat something on the first try, but have reason to do it again, and each time I beat it I beat it more efficiently, in less time, with less wasted effort, than to fail something over and over and get closer and closer to success. Let me give you an example of content I do like, the Spider Scurry guild rush. It’s the one where you turn into a spider and have to run through a Dredge cave.
I didn’t complete that one on the very first attempt, but I did complete it on that first night, after a few tries (each of which were short). If it’d taken me several weeks of attempts to get it the first time, I doubt I’d have bothered. But I did clear it, and then cleared it again, and have by this point cleared it dozens of times, each time improving on my efficiency, to the point that I could now do it without using the radar, without needing other players to block enemies for me, and if perhaps not in “record” time, at the very least I can get there ahead of the pack. I enjoy that I made progress, but it’s progress after having passed the arbitrary victory condition, not towards that condition.
I read this so many times by so many people, that “hard content” is like “work”. We obviously have a very different definition of work.
Yes, we do, and that you fail to respect our definition is where the disconnect falls in this conversation.
In the Lupi example, your “progress” might be his hit point total. First attempt, got downed on the first hit, second attempt brought him down to 75% hit points, third attempt at 50% and so on. There is progress to be had when you repeat (and fail) at content.
Noooope.
Why not just have separate rewards for “easy mode” and “hard mode”?
Because that pleases no one. If you want the reward attached to hard mode, you still need to complete hard mode, so having an easy mode means nothing. Now, as far as content goes, an easy mode is still a nice idea, it lets you enjoy the story and the core mechanics of the mission without the punishing difficulty, but in terms of reward, it is wholly inadequate. If there is an easy mode and a hard mode, the easy mode needs to provide access to identical rewards, if perhaps at a reasonably slower pace.
SAB is a prime example: same items for everyone doing it BUT different colour depending on the difficulty scale you chose.
That only worked because the “elite” colors were do godawful that nobody wanted them. If the T3 color was the blue one I would have been so kittened off at the game.
I suppose if they took that approach to most things, I wouldn’t mind it too badly, if the “easy” version were clearly the best, and the “elite” version had these gaudy embellishments that make it look completely ridiculous, that wouldn’t be so bad, but since everything’s subjective, I’m such some people would still end up preferring the elite version and still be upset about not having access to it.
Again the core difference is the belief that the game is not a competition vs the believe that the game is a competition.
Ah, well that’s easily resolved then, this game is not a competition.
So in other words, you do in fact have a problem with other people being on the same plane as you. You want there to be haves and have nots, in order to prove you are better. So like I said so long ago, it’s about you stroking your ego.
SO THEN WHY DID YOU RUN ME AROUND IN kittenING CIRCLES THIS WHOLE TIME SWEARING UP AND DOWN IT WAS ABOUT SOME JOURNEY YOU NEVER EVEN CARED ABOUT!?
Because that’s how a troll “wins.”
basically if it turns out its easier to beat the hard fight, the reward sucks for killing bandits, if it turns out the bandits is easier, the reward sucks for the hard fight. If they are well balanced both people may be satisfied.
So long as the balance is even remotely close, it is better than having no alternative at all. Even if everyone agrees that the hard fight is more efficient, if I’m just incapable of the hard fight then I will appreciate the opportunity to kill the bandits instead, even if it is a grind. Even if everyone agrees that killing the bandits is a more efficient use of time, if I enjoy challenging content I’ll appreciate having the hard fight option, and do that instead of the grind of the bandits. Having options is always better, even when they can’t reach an ideal balance.
All drops from bandits now flood the markets, lowering the value of people who may be engaged in totally different activities, but share a loot table with bandit items.
This is part of the reason why GW2’s gold economy is such a disaster, but the gold economy should never be as an excuse to not do something good.
i didnt say the content is not compelling, i said the incentive is not compelling. The candy is not doing its job as being a compelling incentive to play.
The content itself should be all the candy you need to get you to play it. You shouldn’t need bonus candy. Good content should be like offering candy to a child, they shouldn’t then go “well yeah, I’ll take that candy bar. . . but what’ll you offer me if I do?”
I think rewards in general are good and important, but you shouldn’t need special rewards for content to convince you to do one content over another, you should just do the content you enjoy.
Actually most of them is ok with other people doing hard content. They just dont’ want those people to get exclusive rewards.
Consider those exclusive rewards wont’ even be created unless anet make those hard content, i’m not sure how it affect them.
That’s actually not true at all. ANet does not say “well, we made a dungeon, now we have to design some armor pieces to put in it.” They have a whole team who’s entire job is to just make armor pieces and weapons and stuff. That stuff WILL get made. Now sure, when they make content, they direct that team to design items thematic to that content, but if they weren’t designing that content, the “skins” teams would still be cranking out exactly as many skins, they would just be distributed into the game through some other means.
The quality and quantity of skins they produce has absolutely NOTHING to do with the difficulty of the content those skins are attached to.
You act like the rewards is going to be so amazing for the new challenging content. Most likely it is same as fractal in which people QQ about the RNG and complain about how the reward is crap.
I would not mind if the harder content is way more rewarding than the alternatives, so long as those rewards are not exclusive. I mean, between these choices, assuming a dungeon similar to your Wurm experience, taking about one hour to complete:
A. It offers 1 gold, some champ bags, and a chance at an account bound unique set of skins that you can only get by running this content.
B. It offers 35 gold and gold-tradable generic items.
I would much prefer they went with B. I don’t mind if hard mode content is more rewarding, so long as the disparity is not too high that the “elite” players runaway with the economy, what I mind is when the “elite” rewards are completely unobtainable without completing that specific content.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
Maybe you should realize the aetherblade weapon have less than 2% chance of dropping.
A group would be lucky if they can run it 10 times and it drop for “someone”. Even if it drop it wont’ be for you. And even if a weapon drop it probably wont’ be the weapon you want.
That’s kind of my point.
Which mmorpg have people run the same “hard cotnent” 50 times on average for people to get “something” they want. Hack which mmorpg have people run the same content 50 times.
Every one of them that has raids, WoW being the worst offender when it comes to rewards, once again, because RNG. WoW basically pioneered the “run this 1 million times and maybe never see the item, enjoy your 2% drop rate!”
And, well, GW2, clearly, does stuff like that, too.
Maybe you should realize the aetherblade weapon have less than 2% chance of dropping.
Do you seriously expect Anet to give any better drop chances on that new challenging content? Because good drop chances would be a massive divergence from their reward policy up to this point.
Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November
Remember, remember, 15th of November
That is why you need to make sure it’s done all over the place with nearly all content a all items. Also there should not only be a difference in difficulty within the content, but also between the content.
Then, when chasing rewards it’s unlikely every item you like happens to be behind content you find easy,, and everything you dislike happens to be behind content you can’t complete. I mean it could happen, but is extremely unlikely.
But the problem is, when rewards you do want are trapped behind content that you don’t like, it forces you to either do that content (which, I remind you, you do not like), or abandon that reward forever (which, I remind you, you do want). Neither of those choices are good.
Then again, in the current approach 90% of the items are behind this same grind (which, I remind you, we do not like), and doing anything else then the most optimal grind does not only feel punishing but will put many items also out of reach because you are getting further and further behind (which, I remind you, you do not like)..
So really, the currency grind approach might put (nearly) all rewards in reach of the hardcore casuals aka grinders. But also puts many rewards out of reach for those who don’t like / can’t stand that grind.
So if you are not a hardcore grinder (like me), in one scenario only those items that are behind content you really cant complete are out of reach, while in the other, most items are out of reach. Guess what I go for.
Think his point is that everything you do in GW2 is for rewards. If there were no rewards, you wouldn’t do the content you currently “enjoy” either.
For the most part? Most likely, aside from some JPs and SAB. I would do those regardless.
But a lot of this content, no matter how you slice the difficulty, is really, REALLY shallow. I mean more shallow than WoW content in some instances. And I don’t just mean shallow in mechanics. I mean overall. Story, mechanics, the works.
But again, I’m not saying that I want easy content and I will only be satisfied if that content gives unique rewards that nobody else can get (in the event that challenge seekers somehow can’t do easy content).
But by wanting unique rewards put behind challenging content, challenge seekers are saying that they want people to be left out.
There have been no real good reasons why exclusive skins should not be added to challenging content, in my opinion.
There have been no real good reasons why exclusive skins should be added anywhere, in my opinion. In fact, I’ve barely seen a reason beyond “Because I won’t do the content unless the item is unique”
Maybe you should realize the aetherblade weapon have less than 2% chance of dropping.
A group would be lucky if they can run it 10 times and it drop for “someone”. Even if it drop it wont’ be for you. And even if a weapon drop it probably wont’ be the weapon you want.
That’s…my point.
Which mmorpg have people run the same “hard cotnent” 50 times on average for people to get “something” they want. Hack which mmorpg have people run the same content 50 times.
Every single one that goes for the raiding end game? Are you new to MMOs?
(edited by Gene Archer.8560)
Then again, in the current approach 90% of the items are behind this same grind (which, I remind you, we do not like), and doing anything else then the most optimal grind does not only feel punishing but will put many items also out of reach because you are getting further and further behind (which, I remind you, you do not like)..
And that’s why a system like the one I discussed is an improvement, because it would mean that you could earn all these items through direct activities if you like, you would never be falling behind, you would only ever be advancing forward at a steady pace.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
Then again, in the current approach 90% of the items are behind this same grind (which, I remind you, we do not like), and doing anything else then the most optimal grind does not only feel punishing but will put many items also out of reach because you are getting further and further behind (which, I remind you, you do not like)..
And that’s why a system like the one I discussed is an improvement, because it would mean that you could earn all these items through direct activities if you like, you would never be falling behind, you would only ever be advancing forward at a steady pace.
The token system you mean. No because it would still be the number slowly going up. That just is not the same. Also it would still not reward based on content. Just as now people might do hard content or a brainless grind (doing only the first boss many times) and be rewarded the same, this problem still exists in your solution. I know, you don’t want people to be rewarded different but thats where our opinions differ.
Every single one that goes for the raiding end game? Are you new to MMOs?
You probably dont’ actually raid. Every raid game have a cool down of 1 week. You can’t even spam them like you do in GW2.
Most raid game in a few month you can already get a full set of gear. And you only need to run them like 4 times a month.
What is the last game you raid in that you run 50 times and it dont’ give you “anything”. 50 times is like a whole year of raiding which dont’ drop anything.
Every single one that goes for the raiding end game? Are you new to MMOs?
You probably dont’ actually raid. Every raid game have a cool down of 1 week. You can’t even spam them like you do in GW2.
Most raid game in a few month you can already get a full set of gear. And you only need to run them like 4 times a month.
What is the last game you raid in that you run 50 times and it dont’ give you “anything”. 50 times is like a whole year of raiding which dont’ drop anything.
yup, this is the truth, you actually grind a lot less in raid based games. Even rare drops are usually fairly high rate in raids.
The thing that used to hold people up a lot was raid politics.
getting a full set of dungeon armor probably requires more repetition than raids do, on average. Some people of course are super unlucky.
Maybe you should realize the aetherblade weapon have less than 2% chance of dropping.
A group would be lucky if they can run it 10 times and it drop for “someone”. Even if it drop it wont’ be for you. And even if a weapon drop it probably wont’ be the weapon you want.
That’s…my point.
Your point on what. The cough cough great exclusive rewards those hard content gives.
People are qqing for fractals over a year. If not for the recent ascended stats change, people would still be qqing.
If I really want great rewards I would be farming silverwaste and buy the better rewards from TP instead.
What is the last game you raid in that you run 50 times and it dont’ give you “anything”. 50 times is like a whole year of raiding which dont’ drop anything.
WoW, because a repeat item doesn’t count (because WoW is gear focused, remember, so an upgrade that you already have is worthless), and there are plenty of runs where I have gotten absolutely nothing, whether due to lack of drops or, before the personal loot system, because I lost the roll.
You can go a long time without drops in WoW, whether dungeons or raids, whether gear or pets/mounts.
To this day, there are people that have never seen Invincible from WoTLK, and they’ve been in the game since WoTLK, and doing ICC at every chance.
Your point on what. The cough cough great exclusive rewards those hard content gives.
Then what would be a great exclusive reward for fractals? What will it take to satisfy people that want challenging content and unique rewards behind challenging content?
Cause so far it seems the answer is NOTHING. Which begs the question why ANet should even bother.
What is it you imagine when you hear the words unique rewards and challenging content. Because I will tell you right now, whatever it is, it is NOT what ANet is known for producing.
Your point on what. The cough cough great exclusive rewards those hard content gives.
Then what would be a great exclusive reward for fractals? What will it take to satisfy people that want challenging content and unique rewards behind challenging content?
Cause so far it seems the answer is NOTHING. Which begs the question why ANet should even bother.
What is it you imagine when you hear the words unique rewards and challenging content. Because I will tell you right now, whatever it is, it is NOT what ANet is known for producing.
Since I spend 3 hours in a aetherblade pug. Just give me 30 gold instead of 1.5 gold. I dont’ care about the exclusive rewards. I get better rewards from buying in the TP anyway.
Dont’ tell me you care about people getting exclusive rewards in aetherblade or wurm bug you. Because you don’t.
(edited by laokoko.7403)
What is the last game you raid in that you run 50 times and it dont’ give you “anything”. 50 times is like a whole year of raiding which dont’ drop anything.
WoW, because a repeat item doesn’t count (because WoW is gear focused, remember, so an upgrade that you already have is worthless), and there are plenty of runs where I have gotten absolutely nothing, whether due to lack of drops or, before the personal loot system, because I lost the roll.
You can go a long time without drops in WoW, whether dungeons or raids, whether gear or pets/mounts.
To this day, there are people that have never seen Invincible from WoTLK, and they’ve been in the game since WoTLK, and doing ICC at every chance.
50 times is like 1 year of raiding. If you ran 1 year of raiding without getting anything and is still content. You are a better man than me.
and dont’ give me that I raid a couple of times and didn’t get anything. A couple of times is not a year of raiding.
What is the last game you raid in that you run 50 times and it dont’ give you “anything”. 50 times is like a whole year of raiding which dont’ drop anything.
WoW, because a repeat item doesn’t count (because WoW is gear focused, remember, so an upgrade that you already have is worthless), and there are plenty of runs where I have gotten absolutely nothing, whether due to lack of drops or, before the personal loot system, because I lost the roll.
You can go a long time without drops in WoW, whether dungeons or raids, whether gear or pets/mounts.
To this day, there are people that have never seen Invincible from WoTLK, and they’ve been in the game since WoTLK, and doing ICC at every chance.
50 times is like 1 year of raiding. If you ran 1 year of raiding without getting anything and is still content. You are a better man than me.
and dont’ give me that I raid a couple of times and didn’t get anything. A couple of times is not a year of raiding.
Then it’s a good thing I didn’t say anything like that.
Also it was admittedly in the 30s, but that’s still about 7 (7.5 I think) months where I obtained zero shinies and zero progression.
Was still not fun.
The token system you mean. No because it would still be the number slowly going up.
Remember, that’s just one option of many. You would still be able to just do the normal thing, whatever.
I mean, “do it once and get a prize” just isn’t an option for practical reasons, but the standard “do it many times and maybe RNG would drop it” would still be in place.
Since I spend 3 hours in a aetherblade pug. Just give me 30 gold instead of 1.5 gold. I dont’ care about the exclusive rewards. I get better rewards from buying in the TP anyway.
Fair enough, so long as the Aetherpath weapon skins and other drops can be bought using Bloom tokens.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
What is the last game you raid in that you run 50 times and it dont’ give you “anything”. 50 times is like a whole year of raiding which dont’ drop anything.
WoW, because a repeat item doesn’t count (because WoW is gear focused, remember, so an upgrade that you already have is worthless), and there are plenty of runs where I have gotten absolutely nothing, whether due to lack of drops or, before the personal loot system, because I lost the roll.
You can go a long time without drops in WoW, whether dungeons or raids, whether gear or pets/mounts.
To this day, there are people that have never seen Invincible from WoTLK, and they’ve been in the game since WoTLK, and doing ICC at every chance.
50 times is like 1 year of raiding. If you ran 1 year of raiding without getting anything and is still content. You are a better man than me.
and dont’ give me that I raid a couple of times and didn’t get anything. A couple of times is not a year of raiding.
Then it’s a good thing I didn’t say anything like that.
Also it was admittedly in the 30s, but that’s still about 7 (7.5 I think) months where I obtained zero shinies and zero progression.
Was still not fun.
I’m just saying the percentage really matters.
I was happily running fractal since I have a 10% chance of getting a fractal skin. Until I have fractal sword left and realize the chance of me getting that specific skin is 0.5%.
All I can say is the grass is always greener on the other side. You are complaining about exclusive skins, while there are probably tones of great skins you can buy from the trading the post.
And the people running the hard content are probably complaining about the gold they make is too small, and they can get similar if not better skin from the TP if they run silverwaste.
To this day, there are people that have never seen Invincible from WoTLK, and they’ve been in the game since WoTLK, and doing ICC at every chance.
Oh really? Because Invincible was a guaranteed drop if you defeated the final boss, the Lich King on heroic 25 man. Every person in my raid obtain one, even new recruits. It dropped one per week, guaranteed and it was split amongst a raid of 25 people. After the level cap was raised to 85, the mount’s drop rate was significantly reduced because it could now solo the raid.
So yeah, not sure what your point is. If they were in the game since WoTLK, this is irrelevant if they weren’t actually doing heroic Lich King on 25 man.
All I can say is the grass is always greener on the other side. You are complaining about exclusive skins, while there are probably tones of great skins you can buy from the trading the post.
But that does me no good if I don’t like any of those skins. Those skins aren’t actually great if I don’t like them.
And the people running the hard content are probably complaining about the gold they make is too small, and they can get similar if not better skin from the TP if they run silverwaste.
Which is why I keep saying that people should be able to do the content they enjoy to get the items they like!
To this day, there are people that have never seen Invincible from WoTLK, and they’ve been in the game since WoTLK, and doing ICC at every chance.
Oh really? Because Invincible was a guaranteed drop if you defeated the final boss, the Lich King on heroic 25 man. Every person in my raid obtain one, even new recruits. It dropped one per week, guaranteed and it was split amongst a raid of 25 people. After the level cap was raised to 85, the mount’s drop rate was significantly reduced because it could now solo the raid.
So yeah, not sure what your point is. If they were in the game since WoTLK, this is irrelevant if they weren’t actually doing heroic Lich King on 25 man.
Congrats! You had a non-sucky guild!
That aside, my point is that RNG is a cruel mistress.
(edited by Gene Archer.8560)
All I can say is the grass is always greener on the other side. You are complaining about exclusive skins, while there are probably tones of great skins you can buy from the trading the post.
And this is why the “well maybe just some of the skins can be exclusive to specific content” argument fails out of the gate, because if that specific item is the one you really want, then it doesn’t matter to you whether 90% of the items are exclusive to content or 10% are, all that matters is that that one is. There really is no such thing as “similar or better,” the item you want is the item you want, there is no reasonable substitute.
Oh really? Because Invincible was a guaranteed drop if you defeated the final boss, the Lich King on heroic 25 man. Every person in my raid obtain one, even new recruits. It dropped one per week, guaranteed and it was split amongst a raid of 25 people. After the level cap was raised to 85, the mount’s drop rate was significantly reduced because it could now solo the raid.
But raids like that are predicated on guaranteed drops, but not enough to go around. It’s guaranteed that someone is getting the drop that night, but also guaranteed that almost everyone in the raid will not. Now if the raid is repeated often enough, then enough loot will drop that eventually everyone will get one, and that’s one way to go, but it tends to lead to drama. Given the options, I tend to prefer GW2’s “everyone gets their own loot, what’s yours is yours and what’s mine is mine, let RNG sort it out.” It’s not ideal as the only solution, I like it to be paired with a token-based failsafe mechanism, but it’s better than an entire group getting one drop and having to figure out who gets it.
“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”
Maybe if you guys spent less time complaining on the forum and more time actually playing the game, it wouldnt be so hard for you.
TL:DR A common thing I hear and agree with, there isn’t anything real challenging in the game at all, especially not instanced because we all know how much anet loves dungeon and fractal players… :On top of that a lack of exclusivity for pve and harder content within pve has made this games pve a relative joke.
~ H8 me if you want, but I’m in the “Current endgame is still easy compared to other games boat”
My pvp friends refuse to run pve because it is too easy for them as they have gotten used to responsive combat from players, I kinda agree…
Anyways, just my 2 copper.
Cellenthia ~ 1.4k hours on ele ~ 3.8k account
Working on all legendary weapons for ele
[MYTH]
Working on all legendary weapons for ele
[MYTH]
Maybe if you guys spent less time complaining on the forum and more time actually playing the game, it wouldnt be so hard for you.
Thanks for saying this. People don’t practice content, it can be hard when you just pick up the game, and even if your whole team is running bad builds it’s still relatively easy, imo. Then again I have basic player skill and knowledge of content and can see tells of mobs to dodge.
Cellenthia ~ 1.4k hours on ele ~ 3.8k account
Working on all legendary weapons for ele
[MYTH]
Working on all legendary weapons for ele
[MYTH]
Removing any pull from the events that everyone is doing anyway makes the game stale. People need rewards outside of their grasp in order to enjoy the game to its fullest.
Of course, and like I’ve said, you shouldn’t start with everything, you shouldn’t be handed everything, you should have to earn it, my position is only that you be able to earn it via multiple methods, and choose the method that appeals to you. Players should not have to choose between whether they want to do something they don’t want or go without the item, there is no benefit to forcing that decision.
It’s because it removes incentive to do other things that they might or might not like.
There should be no incentives for players to do things that they know that they do not like. If there is something they know that they do not like, then they should not do that thing. If it turns out that there is a less than viable population who do want to do that thing, then that thing should be closed down. It’s not the majority’s job to do things that they do not enjoy, just to support an activity that only a small minority enjoy. If that minority wants to do that activity, then they need to justify its existence themselves.
And again, for about the two-dozenth time now, there is a place for rewards that encourage people to try a new activity, but once they’ve tried it and decided it isn’t for them, the game should respect that and let them go. If you respect your players, let them go. If they don’t return, they were never yours to begin with.
Instead of placing a challenge before the player, and/or effort if you will, it’s making players stream into one method rather than that you make players choose between them. Is basic psychology. Instead of the challenge becoming how to pass a certain content it becomes about which method to choose to that specific reward.
Making the game so it competes between methods you’re going to let players fight over which method is the right one to do things. Instead, recognizing that a game mode is in fact different, and it comes with it’s own rewards is more valuable than going in a way where one method clashes with another because they basically have shared rewards all around.
And yes, there will be content you like and dislike. This is entirely subjective. There’s no objective solution as long as you’re going to involve “what players want” or “what they think they want”.
When designing an MMO, you’re not only about “going with the majority”. Because then the game will cover a smaller and smaller playerbase. There is a need for there to be outliers, so that your world has more depth. That there’s things to do that lie outside the players usual playing ground and liking. If players can’t handle that there’s content for something they might not like, then you can apply your own logic, they should respect that, and let those players go.
The fact that you say that PvP should be let go because it’s not popular enough is an obvious proof that you have no understanding of how to manage the game. It’s important for the game to provide loads of different experiences. Those niche things that (some) players may totally hate like soloing Arah . Or (some) players totally like, like SAB. It provides perspective, it makes the game mode you’re enjoying more obvious, but also less stale.
That’s why I said, the reward should serve the content, rather than the content the reward. Or better, the reward shouldn’t be for the players, but it should make the content a better experience. Otherwise, there should be no rewards at all.
Plus, an unique reward doesn’t mean that you’re less or more rewarded than other players. It merely means that you get different rewards for different content. If everything was shared it would undervalue that content. It stops being a goal, the content isn’t a challenge but the picking of the content would be the challenge, the incentive would be gone, the place of the reward in the world would be less, a specific kind of content carefully designed would have been a waste of time because it doesn’t force players to face that challenge anymore.
It’s like a legendary weapon, stopped requiring exploration, because not everyone likes that. And instead you can do alot of events to get the Gift of Exploration. Yes it would provide choice, but it would take away the achievement, the expectation and the place of the reward in the world so that the name doesn’t even fit any more. You changed the reward itself into something totally different.
While your option is of course something up for design, it’s by no means a necessity or an ideal design. There’s different options to every problem. And every solution has downsides. I think in the end ArenaNet always has provided a decent reward plan with all kinds of different rewards. Some unique, some less unique. (Fractals came with achievements, fractal levels, ascended rings, some infusions and the backpiece + fractal weapons as rewards)
Saying all rewards need multiple routes is as sensible as saying every skin has to be pretty. It’s much better if there’s different kind of rewards. Some are gemstore, some are easy to get, some have multiple routes to get and some are unique to a specific piece.
If anything, search up the Extra Credits, Differences in Kind and Differences in Scale video. Although I’m not sure you understand the subtleties of the variations in rewards after it. Just realise that any differences in kind are generally forced.
“It isn’t working!” CL4P-TP
Ingame Name: Guardian Erik
Ingame Name: Guardian Erik
If hard mode content always takes more time to complete than the normal mode, even once you have it on farm, then it can provide a quantity of loot sufficient to make it no less rewarding than the easier mode per minute, but anything you can earn from that mode should be earnable in both. for example if a hard mode dungeon takes 500% longer than a normal mode one, even once people have mastered it, then it could offer 50% more loot drops, so that it balances out, but there should never be a super special armor type that you can only earn from that mode, or that technically drops in both but has a decent chance of dropping in hard mode while only a Precursor-level chance fo dropping in normal.
I bet a lot of my fellow players said it already, buuuut…
- NO. This is one point of it, TO GET THE SUPER SPECIAL STUFF! It is exclusivity and it is lacking in the game, only WvW and PvP have it. PvE has fractal weapons which are going to become a lot more frequent, with the next step being ugly gold ones… yay… This shouldn’t be the only ones. Imagine if farming hard mode dungeons gave you slightly different armor sets that had particle effects after you earned them, to show either dedication (farming it slowly) or skill (nailing the runs for quick farms). It is fair, and this everybody deserves everything is one of the biggest problems with this game.
Work for what you want, if you have to dedicate time to earn it, fine. If it has skill cutoffs and skill is more important than time, fine. I am not that great at the game, but I find difficult content lacking in both amount (there isn’t any…)- and what there is, simply is less rewarding than the 1 spam farms out in SW, and it’s totally unfair and biased towards casual players.
Sorry if I offended anyone 1-spammers.
Cellenthia ~ 1.4k hours on ele ~ 3.8k account
Working on all legendary weapons for ele
[MYTH]
Working on all legendary weapons for ele
[MYTH]
(edited by crazycraig.1245)