Some people don't like hard mode

Some people don't like hard mode

in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns

Posted by: Devata.6589

Devata.6589

Yes, because I’ve been talking about balancing ingame content vs. ingame content

So do I in this example. People can grind for example x hour to get the money needed to buy some item.

So then theoretically (while I think in practice this is near to impossible) you could say, that is equal to difficulty-level y. So that challenging content rewards that item because you can also buy that item for lets say 100 gold what required x hour of brainless grind.

The challenging content and the brainless grind are both ingame content.

May I then remind you that those items are already available in game.. Currently you can get them by doing a lot of very easy content.. You grind gold and buy them.

But you don’t. You grind gold, and you buy them from another player, and HE paid cash money for them. At some point, someone paid cash for it or it would not have entered into the game’s economy. The only way to get some BLTC loot into the game without anyone paying any money is through “key farming,” but this activity can’t account for most of the volume of BTLC items on the market, and if it were cutting seriously into their key profits then you can bet they would just disable the free keys entirely, or push them even higher up the leveling chain until people no longer found the effort worth it.

And that’s my point, if you want those items to drop as loot in some fashion into the game world, then you need to figure out a way that doing so causes some player to have to pay money for that to happen. Like I said, perhaps this could come in the form of having to pay cash to buy “dungeon tickets” and only if you use one of these tickets to run the content could you win a gem store prize for completing it, but personally I would find such a system abominable.

If it makes you feel better, I have been talking from the start about the gold loot from all content being better balanced, so if you feel that the best way to earn gold today is by doing “loot trains” and don’t like that, then running “hardcore content” after this change should make you the same or more money, so it would be an equally viable way to save up gold to buy these items on the TP.

“But you don’t. You grind gold, and you buy them from another player, and HE paid cash money for them. At some point, someone paid cash for it or it would not have entered into the game’s economy.”

This is getting bid weird. You do play the game right? It’s not like you never really played it and now came back for HoT or anything?

It does not have to be on the marked, you can simply buy it for gold (after converting it). In the conversion they do take money spend vs spend gold into consideration, but you could keep doing that, counting every rewarded item as spend gold.

So the premise you base your statement on here is false.

“Like I said, perhaps this could come in the form of having to pay cash to buy “dungeon tickets” and only if you use one of these tickets to run the content could you win a gem store prize for completing it"

In a way, that is what the B2P model is, only you don’t buy the tickets, you buy the expansion that contains the dungeon (including the rewards) and you buy new content on a more regular basis. (instead of cash-shop games where many expansions are free, cheap (when compared to B2P) or / and have big gaps between them, usually releasing a lot of free content in-between.. pretty much what we have seen with GW2 over the last 3 years).

“If it makes you feel better, I have been talking from the start about the gold loot from all content being better balanced”

Let me be clear.. we where just talking about an example here why something would, or would not be possible. Grinding for gold or being able to get all those items in many multiple ways is still not my preferred solution because of the many reasons talked about here by many people. Preferably you would still be locking nearly all and best items behind specific content and have lets say 50% be tradable but 50% not and have most items also be themed around the content that rewards them. Where there could be the option to have different (upgraded) versions of the weapon for different difficulties.

I don’t know how people would feel about this… well, I know how the OP will react, but not sure about everyone else. What if skins had different versions — like Cara and Lumi. The base version could be gained through a variety of means, the enhanced version via specialized content.

I know, I know, it’s a compromise and those sometimes please no one, but maybe some would prefer this.

Well upgrades version with small differences is something I also suggested. I think it’s fair, but some people will still be against it because they still find left out. In the end you can’t please anybody so the question becomes what is best for the game, and obviously both sides think their approach is best for the game.

The side who wants everything available for everybody has had their way for the last 3 years and the game has been successful during the time but at the same time it had big problems really holding players, there have been many complains about the reward-system and there is a lot of grind going on. So maybe it’s now time to try the other approach. I am convinced that is indeed the best solution.

(edited by Devata.6589)

Some people don't like hard mode

in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns

Posted by: Ohoni.6057

Ohoni.6057

So what I in this example. People can grind for example x hour to get the money needed to buy some item.

So then theoretically (while I think in practice this is near to impossible) you could say, that is equal to difficulty-level y. So that challenging content rewards that item because you can also buy that item for lets say 100 gold what required x hour of brainless grind.

The challenging content and the brainless grind are both ingame content.

But you aren’t getting the whole picture here.

Ok, say an item is only available from BL chests, or is available on the Gem store. Currently, you can grind for gold, and buy that item, so from a purely consumer perspective, that is an option to you. But in the entire system surrounding that item, the item would never exist on the TP unless some player earned it by expending several BL keys, which primarily come from cash purchases (and a negligible amount of key farming).

So when you grind for gold, and pay a player that gold for an item, even though you have not spent money, you are encouraging someone else to have spent ~$5 or more in cash money. The money gets spent.

Do you understand me so far? All gem store item transactions involve actual money changing hands at some level.

Now, if you want to change the system, so that gem store items are generated out of thin air and handed to players for completing a dungeon, then you have circumvented that process. Nobody paid any real money to generate that item. Therefore, that is not likely something that ANet would allow. For that system to work, you would need to figure out a way that someone would have to pay real cash money in order to allow that item to exist. So far you have provided no such method.

Now, as for your personal “I don’t want to grind, I want to run dungeons,” as I said, my aim is to balance rewards, so if you’d rather run dungeons many times to earn 150g to buy a BLTC skin, rather than champ training to earn 150g to buy the item, then that would be an option for you. If you think you should get that item just for beating a dungeon once, then sorry, no single dungeon completion is worth 150g, you’ll have to work harder than that.

It does not have to be on the marked, you can simply buy it for gold (after converting it). In the conversion they do take money spend vs spend gold into consideration, but you could keep doing that, counting every rewarded item as spend gold.

You clearly don’t understand how the gem exchange works. If you are taking gold and converting it to gems, and then buying a skin directly off the gem store, then you ARE spending money. Indirectly. See, gems are not created out of thin air. Every gem that exists on the gem exchange is only put there after a player has bought gems with cash, and then converted those gems into gold. You are allowed to grind for gold, and convert it to gems, ONLY because some other player has more money than free time, and chose to convert that money into gold rather than grinding for it. If players all decided to not convert money into gold, then it would become impossible to purchase any gems with gold either.

That’s why the exchange rate is constantly fluctuating, and why it is less efficient to buy gems with gold when there high particularly high demand for gem store items, because more people are “cashing out” than are putting into it.

It’s like with Wildstar, when they first announced that it would be a subscription, but that you could “play for free” by purchasing “plex,” that seemed on the surface to me like it would cost them money, all those people playing for free. But then I understood that every unit of “plex” on the market was only generated when some player was willing to pay $5 more than a monthly sub for it, so while on the player level there were plenty of players who could play without spending money to do so, from the company’s level, every “free” player was actually making the company $5 MORE than every “paid” player!

You have to look at the scenario both from the player’s perspective AND from the company’s. Who has to pay, who profits?

In a way, that is what the B2P model is, only you don’t buy the tickets, you buy the expansion that contains the dungeon (including the rewards) and you buy new content on a more regular basis.

To a point. Look, when GW2 launched, it launched with hundreds of skins that players could earn for free, from ingame activities. Some games are much worse, launching with almost no built in customization and everything having an added cash cost. You don’t need to pay in the gem store to unlock dungeon armors, or Fractal skins, or Legendary skins, etc. So that is the B2P you’re talking about. I also expect that for $50, HoT will come with at least several full lines of armor and weapons that can be earned through ingame activities, similar to what GW2 launched with (although I don’t realistically expect nearly as much of it). I can’t see them justifying the price without that implicit guarantee. But I also expect them to keep adding items to the BLTC over the lifespan of HoT.

I do not believe that B2P boxes alone could sustain the profit margins they need. I do not believe they are capable of pumping out paid expansions fast enough, and I do not believe that the public would support them if they tried. It would just end up fracturing the players between those that bought various updates, and it would be a mess. they managed it with GW1, but remember that GW1 was a MUCH more rudimentary game. I understand your desire for this system, I just have no confidence that it would be feasible.

Of course, you always have the option of showing some self-discipline and doing this yourself. How? Just set your own rules. If you’re willing to pay $50 every six months or so for an expansion, then be willing to spend $50 every six months on gems. Then, instead of grinding for gold, set a target for yourself that you find challenging, it can be anything the game allows, like beating a boss within a certain time limit, completing high tier Fractals ten times, clearing difficult content without any deaths, clearing it without ever using a heal skill or a dodge, whatever rules would make the content interesting to you. Once you have achieved that goal, you take the gems you bought and buy an item you feel is worthy of that achievement. If you can’t complete the achievement, then don’t buy the item. Set rules that work for you, there’s no need to impose your rules onto other players.

“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”

Some people don't like hard mode

in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns

Posted by: phys.7689

phys.7689

So let me get this straight Ohoni

you are ok with stats being denied to people but not cosmetics?

very odd. They basically sold this game as you will never have to go crazy for stats, but you might have to do something crazy for cosmetics.

Also id like to point out, no one is denying people cosmetics
you are free to do the content and get the drop. You are just not willing to do what the game asks.

Why do you think that people should be able to get anything visual in the game, by doing whatever they want? there is already a ton of stuff that doesnt fit that bill
Karma armor
story mode exclusive skins
all the living story stuff
dunegon armor
ambrite
legendaries
collections
volcanus

Why is it that hard mode is off the table for exclusives, but there are tons of other ones that you can only get doing certain content.

Some people don't like hard mode

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Posted by: SkiTz.4590

SkiTz.4590

phys, your arguing against someone that is 100% convinced , no matter what, he is right.

It’s pointless lol.

His agenda is clear – Anet is free to add whatever content they want, just make sure rewards are NOT EXCLUSIVE AND obtainable by people who prefer easier paths to said reward..

He is already convinced that 95% of the population will not even go near the new challenging content and thus, wants rewards to be tied into easier paths.

He already knows he doesn’t want to do anything remotely challenging but wants to be sure he can have access to the reward…

Lets say your at an amusement park and there is a basketball 3 pt challenge mini game where if you hit 5 three pointers in a row, you get a special ball as a reward only available at this mini game.

He wants that special ball to be accessible as a reward by the other mini game where you have 3 chances to throw a dart at a balloon at point blank range and make it pop. “because its more fun to him”

Some people don't like hard mode

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Posted by: Ohoni.6057

Ohoni.6057

So let me get this straight Ohoni

you are ok with stats being denied to people but not cosmetics?

Yes, within reason. I have some level 80 characters that still have pieces of “rare” armor on just because I haven’t bothered to grab exotic pieces to replace them. Stats aren’t terribly important in this game, and if given the choice between having, cosmetic skins I wanted locked behind content, or having Ascended gear locked behind content, I would definitely take the skins and leave the stats.

Also id like to point out, no one is denying people cosmetics
you are free to do the content and get the drop. You are just not willing to do what the game asks.

Did you really say that with the belief that it provide new information to the discussion, or just to say it?

Why do you think that people should be able to get anything visual in the game, by doing whatever they want? there is already a ton of stuff that doesnt fit that bill

The whole point of this discussion is to resolve that. All of it.

His agenda is clear – Anet is free to add whatever content they want, just make sure rewards are NOT EXCLUSIVE AND obtainable by people who prefer easier paths to said reward..

Sure, it’s a deal.

He is already convinced that 95% of the population will not even go near the new challenging content and thus, wants rewards to be tied into easier paths.

I imagine most people will give it a shot. I plan to give it a shot. But if the content is difficult enough to please those crying for difficult content, then chances are it will be unpalatable to the overwhelming majority of this game’s population, so while they may try it, they will only try (and fail) a few times before move on to other content, and will resent whatever features and rewards might be locked behind that content.

Lets say your at an amusement park and there is a basketball 3 pt challenge mini game where if you hit 5 three pointers in a row, you get a special ball as a reward only available at this mini game.

He wants that special ball to be accessible as a reward by the other mini game where you have 3 chances to throw a dart at a balloon at point blank range and make it pop. “because its more fun to him”

Again, you present a difficult challenge, and a very simple challenge, and say that I want them to reward equally. That has very clearly not been my position at any point. My position is that the same rewards should be available through equal effort. So if you had a difficult challenge and an easy one, as you describe, you would at the very least have to perform the easier challenge longer, until the effort involved balances out. But then, yes, there’s no reason the person winning the dart game could not receive the basketball reward instead of the dart game’s reward, if the former is the one that most appeals to him.

“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”

(edited by Ohoni.6057)

Some people don't like hard mode

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Posted by: Astralporing.1957

Astralporing.1957

He is already convinced that 95% of the population will not even go near the new challenging content and thus, wants rewards to be tied into easier paths.

Ok, let’s reverse this. Considering this is supposed to be a challenging content, how many people (by percentage) do you expect to finish it at least once? How many people do you expect to run it regularly? How high those percentages should be for you to say that the content is not challenging enough?

Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November

Some people don't like hard mode

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Posted by: Rym.1469

Rym.1469

I’m sure Arena Net hasn’t forgotten about players who don’t really want to be raiders. There will be scalling Fractals, now easier to pick up than ever, current dungeons are likely to stay, World Bosses aren’t going anywhere.

Besides, challange may not only come from twitch reactions, knowing tactics or super coordination etc.

It may as well be that to overcome something you’ll have to customize your build a bit or theorycraff your way to victory instead of using same things everywhere and getting bored after 2 hours.

If game via “challanging” gameplay suggests you that you should maybe stop for a while and think what you can do and how you can prepare better (getting more familiar with a the game and mechanics themselves) so you can play your profession to it’s max potential – that’s a sign of a game which is challanging in the right way.

[rude]Antagonistka – Revenant, EU.
[SALT]Natchniony – Necromancer, EU.
Streams: http://www.twitch.tv/rym144

Some people don't like hard mode

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Posted by: Torolan.5816

Torolan.5816

Lets say your at an amusement park and there is a basketball 3 pt challenge mini game where if you hit 5 three pointers in a row, you get a special ball as a reward only available at this mini game.

He wants that special ball to be accessible as a reward by the other mini game where you have 3 chances to throw a dart at a balloon at point blank range and make it pop. “because its more fun to him”

Again, you present a difficult challenge, and a very simple challenge, and say that I want them to reward equally. That has very clearly not been my position at any point. My position is that the same rewards should be available through equal effort. So if you had a difficult challenge and an easy one, as you describe, you would at the very least have to perform the easier challenge longer, until the effort involved balances out. But then, yes, there’s no reason the person winning the dart game could not receive the basketball reward instead of the dart game’s reward, if the former is the one that most appeals to him.

As a child, I loved to play at the horse race stand at the local fair that came to town once per year. You had to pay a small fee to participate, then you could roll balls into holes that were green, red, blue and the central one was golden. Each color gave you a different amount of points that moved your chosen horse, and if your horse came in first, you got a big teddy bear. I blew nearly all my fair money on this particular activity, despite relatively bad odds with up to 6 other contestants playing against me because the people at the stand were nice and the activity really appealed to me. I showed the classical signs of an addict then (^^) trying all horse colours and even came to think of “green horse is best horse” because I thought that I won more often there. Sure, I also won some teddy bears over time, but after I had won the first bear, they were not as important as the game itself. And the pressure to win a teddy bear was completely gone, which I found a freeing experience then. I even gave one away that I just won after a while to a girl smaller than me that was crying because she could not win one after several attempts and desperately wanted it, despite being selfish like children usually are at this age. Her father also gave me the equivalent of 2 dollars as unasked reward, so what goes around does really come around I guess. This surely did not make me a special snowflake then, but still kind of had an impact on me as child.

So what kept me playing? The kind of content and the people, not the reward or the activity. In GW2 terms, my ideal content would be funny, rewarding and replayable because of its overall greatness, not because of the hardcore element or to show my teddybear to the loser that never won one (not suggesting that this is the reason most people want content to be harder) .

Some people don't like hard mode

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Posted by: Devata.6589

Devata.6589

For that system to work, you would need to figure out a way that someone would have to pay real cash money in order to allow that item to exist. So far you have provided no such method.

You clearly don’t understand how the gem exchange works. If you are taking gold and converting it to gems, and then buying a skin directly off the gem store, then you ARE spending money. Indirectly. See, gems are not created out of thin air. Every gem that exists on the gem exchange is only put there after a player has bought gems with cash, and then converted those gems into gold.

Quoting myself:

It does not have to be on the marked, you can simply buy it for gold (after converting it). In the conversion they do take money spend vs spend gold into consideration, but you could keep doing that, counting every rewarded item as spend gold.

Also remember GW2 has the ability to dynamically change difficulty, it now does that based on number of players but could also do that based on the conversion-rate or even change the rewards dynamically based on that.

Also the exchange rate is pretty stable for the last year.

Anyway, too much of the discussion go’s into this hypothetical system we both don’t really want. Basically we (well I) want the items simply in the game rewarded directly for gameplay and nowhere else.

You have to look at the scenario both from the player’s perspective AND from the company’s. Who has to pay, who profits?

To a point. Look, when GW2 launched, it launched with hundreds of skins that players could earn for free, from ingame activities.

I do not believe that B2P boxes alone could sustain the profit margins they need. I do not believe they are capable of pumping out paid expansions fast enough, and I do not believe that the public would support them if they tried.

Content and rewards are then locked behind the expansion. You said something about unlocking a dungeon for money, this is basically the same but bundled together in one box.

I do not believe that B2P boxes alone could sustain the profit margins they need.

I did already do the calculations that did suggest that when they did put out an expansion once every year to 1,5 year they should generate the same or even more money.
Of course, calculations are no guarantee, but it’s the closes we can get.

I do not believe they are capable of pumping out paid expansions fast enough

We have no actual date of when they started creating HoT and likely there is also not one specific date, but it’s fair to assume most of the worked started a little after the Chinese release. The Chinese release was on May 15 2014, so let’s say the work on HoT started June 1 2014. That means most of the work of HoT would have been done in 1,5 year, at most 1 month over, more likely a month or so under. I would also expect the first expansion (one of the most important for an MMO) to be one of the bigger expansions. So that fits nicely into my 1 – 1,5 year time-spawn.

I do not believe that the public would support them if they tried.

They did with GW1, in fact it was one of the big selling points of GW1, it was what made GW1 big and so it is what made GW2 possible. Without that you were not likely to now be here.

So with all respect, you might believe many things and we both can’t say anything for sure because to do so, we would have to be in an alternative universe where this is in fact true. But going on all the facts and numbers we do have your believes seem to be wrong.

Of course, you always have the option of showing some self-discipline and doing this yourself. How? Just set your own rules. If you’re willing to pay $50 every six months or so for an expansion, then be willing to spend $50 every six months on gems.

Then we are back to where it all started, the reward system that is not liked by many.

Yeah I was very willing to have spent €50,- a year for an expansion (or more if they released hard copy CE’s) so theoretically I could have spent well over €100,- on gems for those expansion that we did not have and then use that to buy items I might want. But I don’t get a game to buy fluff in it (and it baffles me tbo that other people in fact seem to do so). I have a game to play it, I want the best looking skins, but I also want meaning with items and I want game-play and a big part of my preferred game-play is chasing reward.

With buying those items I 1 support the removal of my preferred game-play and 2 have no fun in it. It’s nice to then have cool items but that’s it.

Some people don't like hard mode

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Posted by: Devata.6589

Devata.6589

Stats aren’t terribly important in this game, and if given the choice between having, cosmetic skins I wanted locked behind content, or having Ascended gear locked behind content, I would definitely take the skins and leave the stats.

Funny enough, I have the same.. that is exactly why I don’t want skins to be locked behind a pay-wall or behind a boring grind. In a way, doing that with skins, is the same as for some other people is when they put the best stats behind a grind or a pay-wall. And really, this those games are as much about stats as this game is about cosmetics so imho it’s also just as bad for this game.

“so while they may try it, they will only try (and fail) a few times before move on to other content, and will resent whatever features and rewards might be locked behind that content.”

On the other hand, more people might in fact try it because of the chase for the rewards.. people that won’t bother with the grind. For example, I have never done a lot of WvW, but the new reward system PvP will get has already got me interested in PvP and I am more willing to give it a try.

Some people don't like hard mode

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Posted by: Ohoni.6057

Ohoni.6057

Quoting myself:

It does not have to be on the marked, you can simply buy it for gold (after converting it). In the conversion they do take money spend vs spend gold into consideration, but you could keep doing that, counting every rewarded item as spend gold.

Dev, it’s not magic, it’s economics. You can’t just “consider reward items to be gained money,” it doesn’t work like that. In the current scenario, you grind for gold, you buy a BLTC sword off the trading post with it. Before that, someone listed that sword on the BLTC, and he got that sword by buying $10 worth of keys, opening chests, and got lucky. Or, in the current scenario, you bought a 400 gem wardrobe piece using gems that you bought off the exchange using gold. In this case, this means that some other player spent $5 in cash to buy those gems and place them on the market for you to buy. In both of these cases, an actual human paid money for the items you got, before you were given the option of picking them up second hand using gold.

Ok, spell it out for me here, in your scenario, where you just complete a dungeon or whatever, and are handed the item for your troubles, which real life human has paid $5-10 cash to make that item available to you? And what incentive did he have to do this?

Are you saying that if you win that item, it would pull 400 gems off the currency exchange? If so, that could be very easily abused by skilled players to throw the gem conversion economy way off balance. It would also mean that they would have to make the challenge difficult enough that one go at it would be worth around 80 gold. That seems unlikely.

Content and rewards are then locked behind the expansion. You said something about unlocking a dungeon for money, this is basically the same but bundled together in one box.

Yes, but again, they cannot put out expansions fast enough to make that economical, and the market would not sustain it if they did. The game would death spiral.

I did already do the calculations that did suggest that when they did put out an expansion once every year to 1,5 year they should generate the same or even more money.
Of course, calculations are no guarantee, but it’s the closes we can get.

They have better accountants than you, using better internal numbers, that seem to indicate otherwise. If their numbers agreed with yours, then there wouldn’t be a gem store anymore.

We have no actual date of when they started creating HoT and likely there is also not one specific date, but it’s fair to assume most of the worked started a little after the Chinese release.

I imagine a lot of the work was happening concurrent with the Chinese release. The Chinese release took very little work from most of the staff since almost all the content was identical. Even so, we’ve seen the pace that they put out new content, if they could produce a worthwhile expansion every six months then we should have seen a lot more than we have over the past three years.

They did with GW1, in fact it was one of the big selling points of GW1, it was what made GW1 big and so it is what made GW2 possible. Without that you were not likely to now be here.

GW1 expansions were cheaper, and were in a time when everyone else was charging $15 a month. Now the expansions have to cost more, because they cost more to make, and most MMOs are completely free to play, so a game that charges for the box is actually a bit high (not that I’m complaining myself). I just think that in a market as rapidly changing as the videogames industry, you can’t feasibly use a game from ten years ago as an example of the path forward.

Then we are back to where it all started, the reward system that is not liked by many.

Did you actually keep reading my example? If you had, you’d understand that the point was, if you don’t like the content→reward loop that ANet set up, you’re always free to create your own within their game. All it requires is that you have enough self-discipline that you don’t open your presents until Christmas.

All you need to do is say 1. “I want a cool reward.” I’m going to set the White Feathered Wings backpiece as my target reward. 2. “I want a cool challenge.” I’m going to set my challenge as that I have to do Claw of Jormag, standing right in the center of the lane, and not get hit by any of Jormag’s attacks or effects for the duration of the fight. 3. If you meet the objective you set for yourself, you get the prize you determined, and buy yourself that backpiece. If you fail to meet that objective, you don’t buy the backpiece.

It’d be the exact same thing as if ANet caused the backpiece to drop as an achievement reward, the only difference is that it requires a small amount of self-discipline.

“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”

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Posted by: Ohoni.6057

Ohoni.6057

On the other hand, more people might in fact try it because of the chase for the rewards.. people that won’t bother with the grind. For example, I have never done a lot of WvW, but the new reward system PvP will get has already got me interested in PvP and I am more willing to give it a try.

Why do people keep insisting on bringing up “It may get people to try it?”

I have covered this soooooooooooo many times already.

Yes, there is a valid role for content rewards to encourage people to try new things, but these rewards should be positioned such that they can be earned within a couple of hours at most, and with minimal skill required. They should be rewards designed to entice players into TRYING the activity, but no more than that. And reward that requires actual time and patience, actually playing the content well after you’ve had time to decide whether you enjoy it or not, should be flexible, and respect that while you may want that reward, you may not enjoy the content, and nobody benefits from you playing content that you definitely know that you do not enjoy.

I may have to make that my signature or something, for how often people ignore it.

“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”

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Posted by: Natto.5819

Natto.5819

I agree with Ohoni.6057. We paid for this game so we should get what we want out of it. It would be unfair to lock skins for only elite players to get. All players should get it because we bought this game. Leave him alone. He’s one of few people who understand how MMOs should work.

Some people don't like hard mode

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Posted by: Devata.6589

Devata.6589

He is already convinced that 95% of the population will not even go near the new challenging content and thus, wants rewards to be tied into easier paths.

Ok, let’s reverse this. Considering this is supposed to be a challenging content, how many people (by percentage) do you expect to finish it at least once? How many people do you expect to run it regularly? How high those percentages should be for you to say that the content is not challenging enough?

The discussion has moved on to more than only the challenging content that will be announced Saturday. It’s now more about how content should be rewarded and the challenge of the content should be rewarded correctly where items might even be locked behind it and not available in any other way.

So there then is not one single answer to your question. Some of the content will be completed by 100% of the people, some by 1% or less. On the other hand, the harder the content, the less there likely is. Maybe we have only 3 things (content) you might consider as hardest content in the game. That then might only be completed by <1% of the players but if they all have one special reward that also means, only those 3 items are out of reach for >99% of the players while by far most items are in reach for most people. This would at least be true for the system where items are locked behind content.

Currently by far most interesting items are out of reach for everybody who is not able / willing to grind all the gold. So in reality, more would become available for more people and it would benefit the game at total (more fun game-play). Win, win. Only some people are so afraid that some items might become out of reach for them, that they suggest an system that while on paper, puts everything in reach for everybody, in reality put most item out of reach for a huge population.

Some people don't like hard mode

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Posted by: Fox.3469

Fox.3469

He is already convinced that 95% of the population will not even go near the new challenging content and thus, wants rewards to be tied into easier paths.

Ok, let’s reverse this. Considering this is supposed to be a challenging content, how many people (by percentage) do you expect to finish it at least once? How many people do you expect to run it regularly? How high those percentages should be for you to say that the content is not challenging enough?

When you don’t add incentive to it, i’d say 10% of the population.
When you do add incentive to it, i’d say 40% at least would do it once. But only because that initial 10% stuck around and willingly or not, educated other people on how to do it.

If you are looking for a cozy mature Dutch guild (EU) let me know.

Some people don't like hard mode

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Posted by: Ohoni.6057

Ohoni.6057

When you don’t add incentive to it, i’d say 10% of the population.
When you do add incentive to it, i’d say 40% at least would do it once. But only because that initial 10% stuck around and willingly or not, educated other people on how to do it.

Ok then, so taking those numbers, assuming that the remaining 60% would like the reward too, why should they be happy about this? What’s in it for them?

“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”

Some people don't like hard mode

in Guild Wars 2: Heart of Thorns

Posted by: Devata.6589

Devata.6589

Ok, spell it out for me here, in your scenario, where you just complete a dungeon or whatever, and are handed the item for your troubles, which real life human has paid $5-10 cash to make that item available to you? And what incentive did he have to do this?

Content and rewards are then locked behind the expansion. You said something about unlocking a dungeon for money, this is basically the same but bundled together in one box.

Yes, but again, they cannot put out expansions fast enough to make that economical, and the market would not sustain it if they did. The game would death spiral.
\/

We have no actual date of when they started creating HoT and likely there is also not one specific date, but it’s fair to assume most of the worked started a little after the Chinese release.
~
So that fits nicely into my 1 – 1,5 year time-spawn.

I did already do the calculations that did suggest that when they did put out an expansion once every year to 1,5 year they should generate the same or even more money.
Of course, calculations are no guarantee, but it’s the closes we can get.

They have better accountants than you, using better internal numbers, that seem to indicate otherwise. If their numbers agreed with yours, then there wouldn’t be a gem store anymore.

The same accountants that just a few years ago did not believe F2P game would be profitable you mean?

The B2P model is in fact used a lot, but for an MMO a cash-shop model is a low-risk model, while B2P a higher risk-model.

And the monetize people really don’t give a dam about the quality of a product, just about sales. that is why they prefer cash-shop, low risk with still good profits.

if they could produce a worthwhile expansion every six months then we should have seen a lot more than we have over the past three years.

All you need to do is say 1. “I want a cool reward.” I’m going to set the White Feathered Wings backpiece as my target reward. 2. “I want a cool challenge.” I’m going to set my challenge as that I have to do Claw of Jormag, standing right in the center of the lane, and not get hit by any of Jormag’s attacks or effects for the duration of the fight. 3. If you meet the objective you set for yourself, you get the prize you determined, and buy yourself that backpiece.

It’d be the exact same thing as if ANet caused the backpiece to drop as an achievement reward, the only difference is that it requires a small amount of self-discipline.

Luckily I talked about 1/ 1,5 year, not 6 months.

Yeah.. so your solution puts us exactly where the game is now and if I would be fine with that I would not be in this thread would I?

Doing the content I like or not it’s still grinding a currency (seeing a number slowly going up) what is extremely boring (just completing the challenge does not give the required money). In addition, people are after more than 1 item so why your solution would theoretically work when looking at a single item, in reality you would get further and further behind so factually putting most of the items out of reach.

So it’s not the same as when the item would drop.

Anyway, we can go on about this part forever and you will likely never agree that they can change the model, while I will stay at point that they can. You think the solution should then not include that part, while I stay at the point where a real solution for the broken reward-system can only come if you take this element (the biggest reason for the problem) into consideration.

So instead of going on about it, I would suggest turning back to the discussion about the reward-system and how (hard) content should be rewarded. With everything I say, that part is part of the scope, for you it’s not. It is as simple as that.

Some people don't like hard mode

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Posted by: Devata.6589

Devata.6589

On the other hand, more people might in fact try it because of the chase for the rewards.. people that won’t bother with the grind. For example, I have never done a lot of WvW, but the new reward system PvP will get has already got me interested in PvP and I am more willing to give it a try.

Why do people keep insisting on bringing up “It may get people to try it?”

I have covered this soooooooooooo many times already.

Yes, there is a valid role for content rewards to encourage people to try new things, but these rewards should be positioned such that they can be earned within a couple of hours at most, and with minimal skill required. They should be rewards designed to entice players into TRYING the activity, but no more than that. And reward that requires actual time and patience, actually playing the content well after you’ve had time to decide whether you enjoy it or not, should be flexible, and respect that while you may want that reward, you may not enjoy the content, and nobody benefits from you playing content that you definitely know that you do not enjoy.

I may have to make that my signature or something, for how often people ignore it.

If I can get that same reward also from a JP (like in your solution) the game-value for the item is lower and I would not try PvP.

See the difference, so that is why people keep saying this.

Some people don't like hard mode

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Posted by: Devata.6589

Devata.6589

I agree with Ohoni.6057. We paid for this game so we should get what we want out of it. It would be unfair to lock skins for only elite players to get. All players should get it because we bought this game. Leave him alone. He’s one of few people who understand how MMOs should work.

What I want from the game is a nice chase for items, where items are behind specific content giving meaning to the content, the items and increasing the fun of the chase.

I don’t want items to be locked behind some brainless grind reducing the game-value of the item.

All people who want this did also pay for the game.

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Posted by: Ohoni.6057

Ohoni.6057

Yeah.. so your solution puts us exactly where the game is now and if I would be fine with that I would not be in this thread would I?

One can only hope. . .

Doing the content I like or not it’s still grinding a currency (seeing a number slowly going up) what is extremely boring (just completing the challenge does not give the required money).

I’m saying, If you are honestly willing to buy a 50 dollar expansion every six months in order to fund them making BLTC goods available as content rewards, then you have it in your power, right today, to make that happen for yourself. You just set your own goals that you believe would be worthy of a BLTC reward, pay them 50 dollars cash into gems to be able to purchase those items off the gem store, and then ONLY actually accept those items as something you own once you’ve actually accomplished the tasks you set for yourself. Absolutely ZERO grinding for currency necessary.

You can do it, I believe in you!

In addition, people are after more than 1 item so why your solution would theoretically work when looking at a single item, in reality you would get further and further behind so factually putting most of the items out of reach.

You claimed that they could function on a purely B2P basis. If that is true, then players buying the items they want with gems and then using those items to reward themselves for ingame accomplishments would cost no more than paying for the boxed expansions. If you’re saying it would be more expensive for people to buy the items off the BLTC, then you’re conceeding that they would make more money that way than they would off of boxed expansions, and should probably continue to do so.

So instead of going on about it, I would suggest turning back to the discussion about the reward-system and how (hard) content should be rewarded. With everything I say, that part is part of the scope, for you it’s not. It is as simple as that.

So you’ve caught up to where I was like five pages ago?

If I can get that same reward also from a JP (like in your solution) the game-value for the item is lower and I would not try PvP.

See the difference, so that is why people keep saying this.

Well no, my point is that “try this” rewards CAN be exclusive to content, because they don’t involve significant investments of time and do not require extreme skill. So you certainly can have a reward that can ONLY be earned via PvP, some fancy hat or whatever, but that item should only require you to give it a shot, maybe “do three rounds of sPvP.” Maybe up to ten, but no more than that. It’s something anyone can knock out in an evening.

This would give people enough that they would actually try PvP, but by that point they should have a decent idea as to whether it’s something they’d want to do for fun. That would be the “choose your own adventure” point. From there, they’ve had a taste, and if they want to continue, then they are free to do so, and they can follow reward tracks to earn whatever rewards they want from the game. Or, if they find that they really dislike PvP, they never have to do it again (although ANet could have a new “maybe try it again?” reward every six months or so, just to see it players like whatever changes they’ve made since the last time), and can go off and do something that they do enjoy.

Any item that takes a significant time/effort investment, you should be able to choose how you spend that time and effort. Maybe PvP, maybe not, up to you. On those rewards, yeah, if you prefer JPs, go do JPs for it, that’s great, everybody wins.

“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”

Some people don't like hard mode

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Posted by: phys.7689

phys.7689

I agree with Ohoni.6057. We paid for this game so we should get what we want out of it. It would be unfair to lock skins for only elite players to get. All players should get it because we bought this game. Leave him alone. He’s one of few people who understand how MMOs should work.

stop thinking of yourself as a non elite player. You can beat everything they will make. Peoples beef hedges on the idea that they cant do this new content. As long as it doesnt require a whole slew of players (which isnt about challenge btw) you will be able to beat it.

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Posted by: phys.7689

phys.7689

He is already convinced that 95% of the population will not even go near the new challenging content and thus, wants rewards to be tied into easier paths.

Ok, let’s reverse this. Considering this is supposed to be a challenging content, how many people (by percentage) do you expect to finish it at least once? How many people do you expect to run it regularly? How high those percentages should be for you to say that the content is not challenging enough?

any normal person should be able to beat it if they put the time/effort/thinking into beating it. Liadri is not impossible for any normal player. Neither is fractals. Just like when this game first came out people could barely handle story mode monsters, and no one could beat a dungeon in 1 hour, people learn, adapt, get better, and get better at teaching others. Now people can do a dynamic event like tequatl consistently, speed run dungeons, and play jumping puzzle mini games for fun (sab)

anything they make will be beatable eventually, through practice, or knowledge. Look at domain of anguish in gw1.

not being able get a drop from challenging content, is not that different then not being able to get a drop from the easier repetitious content. It both comes down to not wanting to do what it takes to get said item. No one is incapable of either.

Some people don't like hard mode

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Posted by: ReiCH.6273

ReiCH.6273

stop thinking of yourself as a non elite player. You can beat everything they will make. Peoples beef hedges on the idea that they cant do this new content. As long as it doesnt require a whole slew of players (which isnt about challenge btw) you will be able to beat it.

and rightfully so. Based on experience gained from other games, raiding requires out of game tools like teamspeak. Add to that the need for an organised group and you can see how someone who just doesn’t want to use out of game tools or plays solo primarily, might find this new content unbeatable unless it can be lfg’d by pugs and without the use of external tools. Or if this content requires huge chunks of time which some players do not have. Imagine a 3 hour raid.

So the fears people have, are not unfounded. Kind words serve no purpose here.

Let’s just wait until saturday when more will be revealed and then we can have a proper discussion about the whole affair. We don’t know enough just yet. But the fears are not unfounded.

In most games, Casuals are the majority. In GW2, Casuals are the game. Azumi.9572

Some people don't like hard mode

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Posted by: Devata.6589

Devata.6589

@Ohoni.6057
In many of your comments, if you come with some idea that is supposed to be a solution you always leave out or simply change conditions and metrics (not saying you do this on purpose). Maybe in that way the solution does then work for you but it’s not really helpful.

You made up the 6 months numbers and even after I corrected you on that in the next comment you again use it.

Also the complain about the current reward system has nearly every time been explained with multiple reasons why people dislike it and then you come with a solution that at best fixes one of them. Connection between item and content for example is still lost in your last ‘solution’, just as rewards guiding you from one place to another and so the chase for rewards experience is still gone.

Again, I will not go into the details of that, because it are more sub solutions to work around the current system (because you believe the current model can’t be changed). But when continuing the conversation you might want to take all things into considerations and don’t change the metrics.

Because solution based on different conditions and metrics are not really helpful. Now let’s move back to the question at hand instead of this secondary solution to work around a system. You can simply use a smaller scope (only items that are already and would get into the gameworld itself) while I keep it with the bigger scope (all items).

Some people don't like hard mode

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Posted by: maddoctor.2738

maddoctor.2738

stop thinking of yourself as a non elite player. You can beat everything they will make. Peoples beef hedges on the idea that they cant do this new content. As long as it doesnt require a whole slew of players (which isnt about challenge btw) you will be able to beat it.

and rightfully so. Based on experience gained from other games, raiding requires out of game tools like teamspeak. Add to that the need for an organised group and you can see how someone who just doesn’t want to use out of game tools or plays solo primarily, might find this new content unbeatable unless it can be lfg’d by pugs and without the use of external tools. Or if this content requires huge chunks of time which some players do not have. Imagine a 3 hour raid.

So the fears people have, are not unfounded. Kind words serve no purpose here.

Let’s just wait until saturday when more will be revealed and then we can have a proper discussion about the whole affair. We don’t know enough just yet. But the fears are not unfounded.

And this is why most raiding games fail, they fail to copy World of Warcraft correctly. There is raiding and then there is raiding, in a good raid game they have versions for everyone. For example before WotLK the players that did raids was ~2% of the population, but after easier versions of raids were added now we have up to 70% of the WoW population that actually has raid achievements, maybe even higher by now. Easily verified checking websites that track official armory data. The myth of “raids are for the harcore elite” is just that, a myth.

Do they all finish the most recent raids? Certainly not, a small % is finishing / running the latest ones, but that’s where guides come in handy. You don’t need teamspeak or any external application, you need the ability to read and understand what you are reading (guides) and also the ability to adapt and change your build to fit the content (not being stack to playing your way). Those things have absolutely nothing to do with player skill, lag issues or bad computers.

And yes 3 hour raids are fine. Until you learn how to do them and do them in 20 minutes. Amount of time required is relative. Took me 4 hours to finish Arah P4 the first time, now I do it in 30-40 minutes.

Some people don't like hard mode

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Posted by: Devata.6589

Devata.6589

stop thinking of yourself as a non elite player. You can beat everything they will make. Peoples beef hedges on the idea that they cant do this new content. As long as it doesnt require a whole slew of players (which isnt about challenge btw) you will be able to beat it.

and rightfully so. Based on experience gained from other games, raiding requires out of game tools like teamspeak. Add to that the need for an organised group and you can see how someone who just doesn’t want to use out of game tools or plays solo primarily, might find this new content unbeatable unless it can be lfg’d by pugs and without the use of external tools. Or if this content requires huge chunks of time which some players do not have. Imagine a 3 hour raid.

So the fears people have, are not unfounded. Kind words serve no purpose here.

Let’s just wait until saturday when more will be revealed and then we can have a proper discussion about the whole affair. We don’t know enough just yet. But the fears are not unfounded.

Then why not suggest a VOIP function inside the game or (if needed) better LFG tools, but I really think that part is already covered ingame. Guilds and LFG can have that function. Maybe more space for guilds to put information ingame might also be helpful or an NPC near the entrance that it’s information gets updated based on the GW2 wiki so it can also explain required tactics.

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Posted by: ReiCH.6273

ReiCH.6273

And yes 3 hour raids are fine. Until you learn how to do them and do them in 20 minutes. Amount of time required is relative. Took me 4 hours to finish Arah P4 the first time, now I do it in 30-40 minutes.

No, for me they are not fine at all. Not even as a learning experience. Different tastes for different people.

And if I wanted to raid, as you said, I would play wow. So I hope they will implement something more fun and enjoyable than raids. We’ll find out this saturday.

Then why not suggest a VOIP function inside the game or (if needed) better LFG tools, but I really think that part is already covered ingame. Guilds and LFG can have that function. Maybe more space for guilds to put information ingame might also be helpful or an NPC near the entrance that it’s information gets updated based on the GW2 wiki so it can also explain required tactics.

The only thing I can suggest, is that they don’t implement content that requires out of game tools to be completed. It seems more logical to first add the tools to do the content, and then the content itself. Not the other way around.

In most games, Casuals are the majority. In GW2, Casuals are the game. Azumi.9572

Some people don't like hard mode

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Posted by: maddoctor.2738

maddoctor.2738

And yes 3 hour raids are fine. Until you learn how to do them and do them in 20 minutes. Amount of time required is relative. Took me 4 hours to finish Arah P4 the first time, now I do it in 30-40 minutes.

No, for me they are not fine at all. Not even as a learning experience. Different tastes for different people.

And if I wanted to raid, as you said, I would play wow. So I hope they will implement something more fun and enjoyable than raids. We’ll find out this saturday.

As I said Arah P4 required 4 hours of playing to finish when the game was new, I don’t expect their challenging content to take less than that. And remember this is about new runs, once the guides are out, the builds are confirmed, it will be faster for everyone. That’s how that type of content works.

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Posted by: Fox.3469

Fox.3469

When you don’t add incentive to it, i’d say 10% of the population.
When you do add incentive to it, i’d say 40% at least would do it once. But only because that initial 10% stuck around and willingly or not, educated other people on how to do it.

Ok then, so taking those numbers, assuming that the remaining 60% would like the reward too, why should they be happy about this? What’s in it for them?

Look i get what you are saying, you’ve somewhat convinced me exclusive isn’t that important, however the incentive needs to be strong enough. That means that for every single person of those 40%, the hardcore content needs to be the ideal option to get the reward.

Other then that i don’t mind there being a seriously timegated other way to get the reward. But the optimal way to get a reward should always be do the content that the reward belongs to. The 60% that doesn’t want to do it can have the option to go for the same rewards as me, i wouldn’t have a problem with that. What i would have a problem with is if for the average player, this option would be better then going for the hardcore content. Because if that is the case you directly draw people away from that content, and that affects me and my ability to find groups for it.

Personally i would like it best if the skins were exclusive for a few months, but that the non-hardcore way would become available as soon as a certain amount of people beat the content, or just after a certain time period. I personally think that would be the best way, but i would be fine with anything that doesn’t hurt the incentive to actually do the content.

If you are looking for a cozy mature Dutch guild (EU) let me know.

(edited by Fox.3469)

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Posted by: Gene Archer.8560

Gene Archer.8560

A question to everyone that is watching this thread:
What’s your opinion on time-exclusive rewards?

For example, challenging group content might reward SKINA, for a limited time, until players beat it, until players reach a certain speed, or simply after a set amount of time (or any other system really), that exclusive stops being exclusive and is added to other types of content. Then, another piece of exclusive reward is added to new content and the cycle continues.

Could work. Personally I would suggest timed in that case, and no longer than 2 months.

I can’t say I find it satisfying, per say, but certainly better than nothing.

Though I doubt most people that want exclusive rewards behind challenging content would go for it, since that takes away the exclusivity.

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Posted by: Devata.6589

Devata.6589

When you don’t add incentive to it, i’d say 10% of the population.
When you do add incentive to it, i’d say 40% at least would do it once. But only because that initial 10% stuck around and willingly or not, educated other people on how to do it.

Ok then, so taking those numbers, assuming that the remaining 60% would like the reward too, why should they be happy about this? What’s in it for them?

Look i get what you are saying, you’ve somewhat convinced me exclusive isn’t that important, however the incentive needs to be strong enough. That means that for every single person of those 40%, the hardcore content needs to be the ideal option to get the reward.

Other then that i don’t mind there being a seriously timegated other way to get the reward. But the optimal way to get a reward should always be do the content that the reward belongs to. The 60% that doesn’t want to do it can have the option to go for the same rewards as me, i wouldn’t have a problem with that. What i would have a problem with is if for the average player, this option would be better then going for the hardcore content. Because if that is the case you directly draw people away from that content, and that affects me and my ability to find groups for it.

Personally i would like it best if the skins were exclusive for a few months, but that the non-hardcore way would become available as soon as a certain amount of people beat the content, or just after a certain time period. I personally think that would be the best way, but i would be fine with anything that doesn’t hurt the incentive to actually do the content.

That basically always has been my compromise in the many discussions about this subject. But it still removes a lot of the meaning that comes with the item.

So yea, items should always be behind content and when you can grind for them as well, doing the content should always be the most optimal way (what you will really only get when implementing this immediately all over the game and not having many other rewards that make the same content interesting for grinders as a place to generally grind stuff).

But I would still go for / prefer the option where a percentage of the items are in fact not tradable and so only available for doing the content.

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Posted by: Fox.3469

Fox.3469

When you don’t add incentive to it, i’d say 10% of the population.
When you do add incentive to it, i’d say 40% at least would do it once. But only because that initial 10% stuck around and willingly or not, educated other people on how to do it.

Ok then, so taking those numbers, assuming that the remaining 60% would like the reward too, why should they be happy about this? What’s in it for them?

Look i get what you are saying, you’ve somewhat convinced me exclusive isn’t that important, however the incentive needs to be strong enough. That means that for every single person of those 40%, the hardcore content needs to be the ideal option to get the reward.

Other then that i don’t mind there being a seriously timegated other way to get the reward. But the optimal way to get a reward should always be do the content that the reward belongs to. The 60% that doesn’t want to do it can have the option to go for the same rewards as me, i wouldn’t have a problem with that. What i would have a problem with is if for the average player, this option would be better then going for the hardcore content. Because if that is the case you directly draw people away from that content, and that affects me and my ability to find groups for it.

Personally i would like it best if the skins were exclusive for a few months, but that the non-hardcore way would become available as soon as a certain amount of people beat the content, or just after a certain time period. I personally think that would be the best way, but i would be fine with anything that doesn’t hurt the incentive to actually do the content.

That basically always has been my compromise in the many discussions about this subject. But it still removes a lot of the meaning that comes with the item.

So yea, items should always be behind content and when you can grind for them as well, doing the content should always be the most optimal way (what you will really only get when implementing this immediately all over the game and not having many other rewards that make the same content interesting for grinders as a place to generally grind stuff).

But I would still go for / prefer the option where a percentage of the items are in fact not tradable and so only available for doing the content.

While me and you may be prepared to compromise, i highly doubt Arenanet will do it.
I think they will be to scared to have another piece of dead content like most of the hard dungeon paths now. While it may not be what this op wants, i doubt they will give in and make it available for all, even tough i personally wouldn’t mind having multiple ways to get these rewards. I think the only thing we may see is a pvp reward track for them. Other then that i think they will be exclusive. Maybe we get a random non-legendary skin with the 4th birthday gift, like we got a random dye now :p. Who knows.

If you are looking for a cozy mature Dutch guild (EU) let me know.

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Posted by: SkiTz.4590

SkiTz.4590

When you don’t add incentive to it, i’d say 10% of the population.
When you do add incentive to it, i’d say 40% at least would do it once. But only because that initial 10% stuck around and willingly or not, educated other people on how to do it.

Ok then, so taking those numbers, assuming that the remaining 60% would like the reward too, why should they be happy about this? What’s in it for them?

See Ohoni, you just have a BELIEF that 5-10 % of the ppl will FAIL and NEVER TRY AGAIN. When its been PROVEN to be the exact opposite. You think ppl just gave up when the new teq arrived or TT or marionette? NO, they continued playing it. It was fun, had a chance at cool rewards and now look, Majority of the population can do it (minus mariontte, not ingame anymore)

Not everyone is like you. Stop making up bs numbers and claiming them as FACTS.

YOU have NO DATA on how people would respond. You’re just making up things and believing that straight up only 10% of the population will succeed and the rest will totally fail and quit the game…

And you act as if anet wouldn’t create some kind of reward that only a minority population would be able to achieve..

You think majority of the population has a legendary? I don’t think so, but anet made it
Full ascended gear? nope, but anet made it
Fractal skins, teq hoards, etc etc? nope, I doubt majority of the population has gotten it.
Certain titles, skins, dyes, etc etc? I doubt majority of the population has all the fancy stuff. But its still being added.

Your agenda only suits you. Outside a handful of people, no one is going to just “give up” and quit because they couldn’t achieve a new reward….

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Posted by: Rainmaker.7594

Rainmaker.7594

I think there needs to be more exclusive skins. It sucks that they made dungeon armor available via PvP reward tracks (yet, PvP still gets exclusive stuff though). I think any new dungeon/fractal armors need to be exclusive to that content. It shows you actually did something to earn the armor. It is entirely cosmetic, just like gem store items, so it makes no difference stat wise for the player base.

In fact, I think there needs to be more rewards like Aetherpath’s Clockheart mini, which requires a bit more effort to get. It would be great if there was an exclusive set of armor like this, but where you’d get on piece per dungeon for completing the achievement set. Furthermore, I also think challenge mode would be great – maybe get a backpiece for completing all the challenge modes.

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Posted by: Coulter.2315

Coulter.2315

I think there needs to be more exclusive skins. It sucks that they made dungeon armor available via PvP reward tracks (yet, PvP still gets exclusive stuff though). I think any new dungeon/fractal armors need to be exclusive to that content. It shows you actually did something to earn the armor. It is entirely cosmetic, just like gem store items, so it makes no difference stat wise for the player base.

In fact, I think there needs to be more rewards like Aetherpath’s Clockheart mini, which requires a bit more effort to get. It would be great if there was an exclusive set of armor like this, but where you’d get on piece per dungeon for completing the achievement set. Furthermore, I also think challenge mode would be great – maybe get a backpiece for completing all the challenge modes.

Actually Dungeon Armour was available in PvP at launch – they were tied to ranks or tournaments. They had more significant meaning for PvP characters then – CM armour meaning r60 (which was a lot higher than the current r80).

Also my Infinite Light was got through PvP too, so even very expensive and exclusive PvE gear was achievable through PvP at launch.

(edited by Coulter.2315)

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Posted by: Obtena.7952

Obtena.7952

phys, your arguing against someone that is 100% convinced , no matter what, he is right.

Thanks god his ideas are nothing what’s inline with how Anet conceives the game.

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Posted by: Ohoni.6057

Ohoni.6057

stop thinking of yourself as a non elite player. You can beat everything they will make. Peoples beef hedges on the idea that they cant do this new content. As long as it doesnt require a whole slew of players (which isnt about challenge btw) you will be able to beat it.

Maybe, but will I want to? Will it take numerous failed attempts along the way? Will earning the rewards require only one completion of the content, or (as would seem more likely) dozens of completions of the content, even if one were plenty to tell me I had no interest in doing it a second time?

I’ve been playing another game lately, Marvel Heroes, and they recently put in a difficult “trial” event to block people off from being able to access one of their higher end open world zones, essentially similar to if ANet forced you to complete Liadri before they’d allow you to enter Verdant Brink. I do have concerns that they might add content that I have no interest in, but also lock rewards behind that content that I have significant interest in.

any normal person should be able to beat it if they put the time/effort/thinking into beating it. Liadri is not impossible for any normal player. Neither is fractals. Just like when this game first came out people could barely handle story mode monsters, and no one could beat a dungeon in 1 hour, people learn, adapt, get better, and get better at teaching others. Now people can do a dynamic event like tequatl consistently, speed run dungeons, and play jumping puzzle mini games for fun (sab)

I’m much better than I was when I started this game, and things that were once scary or challenging I can now handle with ease, but I didn’t get that way by slamming my head against a wall until it stopped hurting, I did it by continuously beating relatively easy content until I got better and more efficient at it. I do not want more Liadri stuff, or if they do add it, I want to be able to skip it without missing out on anything I would want.

In many of your comments, if you come with some idea that is supposed to be a solution you always leave out or simply change conditions and metrics (not saying you do this on purpose). Maybe in that way the solution does then work for you but it’s not really helpful.

You made up the 6 months numbers and even after I corrected you on that in the next comment you again use it.

Six months is a reasonable turnaround for them to be able to continue producing the game. It’s not the number you would like to use, but it’s the number that I think is appropriate to the situation, and since we’re both speaking in hypotheticals, neither is “correct.”

Also the complain about the current reward system has nearly every time been explained with multiple reasons why people dislike it and then you come with a solution that at best fixes one of them. Connection between item and content for example is still lost in your last ‘solution’, just as rewards guiding you from one place to another and so the chase for rewards experience is still gone.

The “connections to content” would be available for you to apply as you see fit. Do you see the Pact Fleet weapons as being connected to Silverwastes content? Make the reward you set for yourself something related to the Silverwastes, like every time you loot a piece of Luminiscent armor you reward yourself with a Pact Weapon, or if you complete the Skritt JP without falling, or if you get the entire gold coin achievement.

Because solution based on different conditions and metrics are not really helpful. Now let’s move back to the question at hand instead of this secondary solution to work around a system. You can simply use a smaller scope (only items that are already and would get into the gameworld itself) while I keep it with the bigger scope (all items).

Why don’t we agree to all stick to the smaller scope, because the larger scope isn’t something we hold any power over.

No, for me they are not fine at all. Not even as a learning experience. Different tastes for different people.

Agreed, even Fractals take too long for me, a three hour raid is just a complete non-starter. I might invest up to two hours on a raid, ONCE, but it’d better not take anywhere near that long on a second attempt.

Other then that i don’t mind there being a seriously timegated other way to get the reward. But the optimal way to get a reward should always be do the content that the reward belongs to.

I don’t disagree with that at all. The point at which I disagree is when people either say it should be the only way, or that the difference should be SO vast as to make the secondary option meaningless, such as that it only unlocks a secondary option six to twelve months after the primary, or the primary option only takes an average of ten daily tries while secondary options would take months of constant grind, etc. The primary option should be the easiest for those who are willing and able to run that type of content, but the secondary option should not be cruel to those who don’t.

Because if that is the case you directly draw people away from that content, and that affects me and my ability to find groups for it.

Now here’s where we do disagree, because from my perspective, you don’t deserve to have those players available to you. They are not playing the game to make it easier for you to find a group, they are playing the game so that they can have fun. The pool that should be available for you to group with should be entirely people who want to be there, not people who feel bribed to be there, and if the game mode cannot support a healthy population of people who want to be there, then maybe that’s a game mode that doesn’t deserve to be supported by the developers.

Now as I’ve said, I think there is a role to play for “come on, try it” rewards, designed to entice players into attempting new content, but they should be something that pretty much anyone can earn very quickly, once they’ve had time to see what the content was like and determine whether they enjoyed it. The role of any rewards beyond that, the ones that do take significant combinations of skill/time/effort, should not be used to “entice” players into trying content that they do not enjoy, but rather to reward players who are having fun and enjoying the content so that they do not feel that their time would have been more efficiently spent elsewhere.

That’s why the quantity of loot should be balanced better, so that after a night of hardcore dungeon running you don’t think “that was fun, but I could have made more money Silverwaste farming,” but at the same time it’s not so much that people are in it for the loot, “I really hated that, but at least I’m one step closer to the wizard’kitten. I really wish I’ve been Silverwaste farming instead though.”

But I would still go for / prefer the option where a percentage of the items are in fact not tradable and so only available for doing the content.

Which still does nothing for whom that small percentage of items you’ve locked out are the ones most important to that player.

See Ohoni, you just have a BELIEF that 5-10 % of the ppl will FAIL and NEVER TRY AGAIN. When its been PROVEN to be the exact opposite. You think ppl just gave up when the new teq arrived or TT or marionette? NO, they continued playing it. It was fun, had a chance at cool rewards and now look, Majority of the population can do it (minus mariontte, not ingame anymore)

I don’t know that these are great examples though. People did the Marionette because it was limited time content, so you might as well take every chance you can get while it was there. If they’d left Marionette in its original form (I think there were significant improvements they could have made), then even if it was on a 3-4 hour rotation I doubt you could get more than one map’s worth of players on it. Teq is reasonably successful now, but mostly because people have it on farm at this point, if you’re on a reasonable sized map it’s very hard to fail it, regardless of your personal skill. Neither event really challenges the individual like a much smaller scale event might. It would be more informative to see how many players beat Liadri, or how many got a full set of Luminescent armor, or similar individual challenges.

YOU have NO DATA on how people would respond. You’re just making up things and believing that straight up only 10% of the population will succeed and the rest will totally fail and quit the game…

As Astral were hinting at, what if 100% of players could complete the content? Do you really believe that this would be content that would satisfy the hardcore players ? What would be the point of difficult content if it’s content that anyone can do?

You think majority of the population has a legendary? I don’t think so, but anet made it
Full ascended gear? nope, but anet made it
Fractal skins, teq hoards, etc etc? nope, I doubt majority of the population has gotten it.
Certain titles, skins, dyes, etc etc? I doubt majority of the population has all the fancy stuff. But its still being added.

Your agenda only suits you. Outside a handful of people, no one is going to just “give up” and quit because they couldn’t achieve a new reward….

As I said many pages ago, I believe the number of people who would say “they’re adding a cool new piece of armor to that content I never want to do? That’s it, I’m out of here!” and quit the game, would be relatively small. Insignificantly so. But the more impassable barriers you put in front of someone, the more frustrated they get overall, it will erode the positive feelings they have for the game and make them more likely to eventually just “ghost,” just stop playing because they don’t feel like playing, rather than rage quitting in a sudden storm.

It’s also worth keeping in mind that ANet not only want to keep players happy enough to not quit, they want to keep them happy enough to keep buying stuff. I know that in cash shop games I play, the amount I spend is directly proportional to how happy I am with the developers. It’s as much a charitable donation as it is a practical purchase. If I think the company has been doing right by me, I am very generous about picking up anything remotely interesting to me, while if I feel that a company is really sticking it to me, I might buy the occasional item I can’t live without, but I will avoid any purchase I can do without.

Actually Dungeon Armour was available in PvP at launch – they were tied to ranks or tournaments. The has more significant meaning for PvP characters then – CM armour meaning r60 (which was a lot higher than the current r80).

True, I have about a dozen or so random dungeon armor pieces unlocked because of what tiny amount of dabbling I did in PvP before the wardrobe patch.

“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”

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Posted by: phys.7689

phys.7689

I think there needs to be more exclusive skins. It sucks that they made dungeon armor available via PvP reward tracks (yet, PvP still gets exclusive stuff though). I think any new dungeon/fractal armors need to be exclusive to that content. It shows you actually did something to earn the armor. It is entirely cosmetic, just like gem store items, so it makes no difference stat wise for the player base.

In fact, I think there needs to be more rewards like Aetherpath’s Clockheart mini, which requires a bit more effort to get. It would be great if there was an exclusive set of armor like this, but where you’d get on piece per dungeon for completing the achievement set. Furthermore, I also think challenge mode would be great – maybe get a backpiece for completing all the challenge modes.

Actually Dungeon Armour was available in PvP at launch – they were tied to ranks or tournaments. They had more significant meaning for PvP characters then – CM armour meaning r60 (which was a lot higher than the current r80).

Also my Infinite Light was got through PvP too, so even very expensive and exclusive PvE gear was achievable through PvP at launch.

yes but you couldnt use pvp skins outside of PVP back then. You getting infinite light was a reward in pvp you could only use in pvp

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Posted by: Conski Deshan.2057

Conski Deshan.2057

I’ve been playing another game lately, Marvel Heroes, and they recently put in a difficult “trial” event to block people off from being able to access one of their higher end open world zones, essentially similar to if ANet forced you to complete Liadri before they’d allow you to enter Verdant Brink. I do have concerns that they might add content that I have no interest in, but also lock rewards behind that content that I have significant interest in.

That’s good game design though.
A clear objective, Get to this zone, A clear means to complete the task (clearing the trial) with a clear reward (access to the zone) and a clear distinction to other players (If this player is present in the zone they have completed x trial).
They can then build on that at a later point (within that zone is an even harder trial gating access to a further zone) and again.

The concept of a skill gate at entry is common,(assuming a solo trial, if group it follows the same principle but is less secure.) it ensures(in reality just gives a higher chance that, but it’s the principle that counts) a minimum level of skill going forward, so that the next stage of that content can be designed with those minimum set of abilities going forward.

If theoretically this was applied to GW2 you could have several different “paths” with different sets of rewards, I.E Difficulty zone 1 Pvp Brink, Jumping brink, Raid brink , Difficulty 2 zone , difficulty 3 zone etc.
You now have 3 different groups of players that now feel rewarded, without interfering with the other players “Well I can’t get past D1 pvp, but I can do D3 jumping, so I feel special and rewarded”. Chuck in another reward for getting to D3 on all zones and you’d even satisfy the all rounders.*

(Before you start yapping on about what those rewards are and how anything you could conceivably want for half a second can’t be locked out of your reach. I’m talking about rewards from a game design point of view, it doesn’t give two craps about your personal tastes, all it cares about is that 1. The reward is desirable enough that people want to do the content for it “push factor”. 2. The reward conveys the specific accomplishment to other players in the environment “prestige/achievement factor” i.e D3 Pvp will not be confused with or comparable to D3 jump or D3 raid.)

[RoF] and [BL] guild leader
11x level 80’s 80+ Titles 2600+ skins , still a long way to go.

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Posted by: Kimyrielle.3826

Kimyrielle.3826

I couldn’t care less if they introduce difficult content (there already is, except you’d argue that L40+ Fractals are easy). But I really hope ANet isn’t going to listen to these elitist braggers who want exclusive rewards of any kind dropping from that content to shove into everybody else’s faces. If I wanted to deal with this stuff and these people I’d play any of the other 20 major MMOs designed in that fashion. I am here because GW2 is NOT like that (yet).

Tarnished Coast

(edited by Kimyrielle.3826)

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Posted by: Ohoni.6057

Ohoni.6057

yes but you couldnt use pvp skins outside of PVP back then. You getting infinite light was a reward in pvp you could only use in pvp

Sure, but as soon as they made the wardrobe changes, you could, with no additional effort.

That’s good game design though.
A clear objective, Get to this zone, A clear means to complete the task (clearing the trial) with a clear reward (access to the zone) and a clear distinction to other players (If this player is present in the zone they have completed x trial).

It’s good game design If you want to enforce exclusion and elitism, but it’s terrible game design if you want to encourage an inclusive and fun atmosphere where everyone enjoys themselves.

The concept of a skill gate at entry is common,(assuming a solo trial, if group it follows the same principle but is less secure.) it ensures(in reality just gives a higher chance that, but it’s the principle that counts) a minimum level of skill going forward, so that the next stage of that content can be designed with those minimum set of abilities going forward.

Which is again good if you want to keep players away from your content, but not if you want to include them in the content. Honestly, before that other game implemented that gating mechanism, I had several of my characters playing in the now-gated content on a daily basis. Since they implemented the gate, even though several of my characters would be able to pass it, I haven’t even bothered, too much hassle. They blocked off an entire chunk of the game for no good purpose.

2. The reward conveys the specific accomplishment to other players in the environment “prestige/achievement factor” i.e D3 Pvp will not be confused with or comparable to D3 jump or D3 raid.)

The entire concept behind this is an abomination.

“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”

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Posted by: phys.7689

phys.7689

yes but you couldnt use pvp skins outside of PVP back then. You getting infinite light was a reward in pvp you could only use in pvp

Sure, but as soon as they made the wardrobe changes, you could, with no additional effort.

That’s good game design though.
A clear objective, Get to this zone, A clear means to complete the task (clearing the trial) with a clear reward (access to the zone) and a clear distinction to other players (If this player is present in the zone they have completed x trial).

It’s good game design If you want to enforce exclusion and elitism, but it’s terrible game design if you want to encourage an inclusive and fun atmosphere where everyone enjoys themselves.

The concept of a skill gate at entry is common,(assuming a solo trial, if group it follows the same principle but is less secure.) it ensures(in reality just gives a higher chance that, but it’s the principle that counts) a minimum level of skill going forward, so that the next stage of that content can be designed with those minimum set of abilities going forward.

Which is again good if you want to keep players away from your content, but not if you want to include them in the content. Honestly, before that other game implemented that gating mechanism, I had several of my characters playing in the now-gated content on a daily basis. Since they implemented the gate, even though several of my characters would be able to pass it, I haven’t even bothered, too much hassle. They blocked off an entire chunk of the game for no good purpose.

2. The reward conveys the specific accomplishment to other players in the environment “prestige/achievement factor” i.e D3 Pvp will not be confused with or comparable to D3 jump or D3 raid.)

The entire concept behind this is an abomination.

that was a case of grandfathering its not intentional, theres no way to get prestige items like infinite light in pvp anymore as far as i know.

He only has that skin because anets old system and their new system couldnt mesh. Its not actually the way they intended the game to be, and its not the way it is now.

btw, getting things in multiple ways is not really inclusive, its not exclusive, its just getting things in multiple ways.

getting things in multiple ways can be exclusive as well. For example, my ability to get legendaries with gold had me in champ trains and playing the TP instead of doing the things my friends were doing, because i was targeting gold.

basically best gold was in champ trains, and TP monitoring/item redistribution, so any other content was a waste of time. Wasnt very inclusive.

basically to your understanding the game exists to give out rewards, whereas to us the rewards exist to enhance gameplay.

I will say its possible to enhance it without exclusives, but very few of anets previous attempts have come anywhere close to that, to the point which i dont think its feasible for anet.

Also even with multiple paths there will still be some things that are not rewarded. What if you dont want to do challenging content AND you dont want to kill 2 bit enemies 1000000 times?

(edited by phys.7689)

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Posted by: Astralporing.1957

Astralporing.1957

You think ppl just gave up when the new teq arrived or TT or marionette?

Yes, one of the reasons Marionette started getting easier and easier was because many of the least skilled players just stopped showing up to it. The same with Teq – for a time it was mostly done just by several big guilds and a few most populous servers – and even for those many people just didn’t bother to even try. People started coming back only after the success ratio went way up after several nerfs.

and now look, Majority of the population can do it.

Because it got nerfed few times.

YOU have NO DATA on how people would respond.

Actually, the Teq fight you brought up is a great example – and it worked exactly like Ohoni said.

I’d also like to point out, that currently many people asking for challenging content do not consider Teq to be difficult at all – exactly because it can be done by pugs. If the new content will ever get in the victinity of Teq success rate, i can bet that the same crowd will consider it a failure and will ask for something harder next time.

You think majority of the population has a legendary? I don’t think so, but anet made it
Full ascended gear? nope, but anet made it
Fractal skins, teq hoards, etc etc? nope, I doubt majority of the population has gotten it.

Neither of those requires actual skills, you know. Just perseverance.

Also even with multiple paths there will still be some things that are not rewarded. What if you dont want to do challenging content AND you dont want to kill 2 bit enemies 1000000 times?

Currently TP flippers are the most supported group of players, even if they are one of the tiniest minorities.
Just saying.

Actions, not words.
Remember, remember, 15th of November

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Posted by: Ohoni.6057

Ohoni.6057

that was a case of grandfathering its not intentional, theres no way to get prestige items like infinite light in pvp anymore as far as i know.[/quote]

You’re the one that brought up Infinite Light, several times, I didn’t. I talked about how PvP used to grant dungeon skins, and still does.

btw, getting things in multiple ways is not really inclusive, its not exclusive, its just getting things in multiple ways.

No, that doesn’t make sense.

getting things in multiple ways can be exclusive as well. For example, my ability to get legendaries with gold had me in champ trains and playing the TP instead of doing the things my friends were doing, because i was targeting gold.

No, it had you running champ trains because you were targeting gold AND the gold rewards were significantly unbalanced. Assuming that perfect balance is impossible, would you really be unsatisfied with reasonable balance? Take any reasonable activity your friends might have been doing, from which you would accept any reasonable reward. If the gold generated by that activity were at least comparable to the gold generated by champ farms, say, 5, 10, even 25% less, then which would you do, the champ farms, or the other thing that you apparently enjoy more? What would be your cut-off point, take your favorite in-game activity, what percentage of gold per hour could it provide you relative to champ farming that you would be able to choose to have fun instead of champ farming with a clear conscience?

and no, even if I bought into your concept of players being forced to farm for gold by unbalanced gold generation, it’s still not “more exclusive than exclusive,” because that assumes that the items you do want would be available through those gameplay options.

By that I mean, ok, your friends invited you to adventure with them, run Fractals, perhaps. “Sorry guys, can’t, I’m farming gold for a TP item.” Ok, fair enough. But what if there weren’t gold farming or the TP, every item was an exclusive drop to specific content? Well then the problem gets even worse. “Hey Phys, we’re running Fractals, come along.” “Sorry guys, I don’t care about Fractal weapons, I’m aiming for CoF armor, so I’m running CoF tonight.”

In a system of exclusives, you can ONLY run the specific content they are attached to if you’re actively trying to earn them. In a non-exclusive system, even a horribly broken one, you can still run Fractals to earn gold, even if that’s not the most efficient thing to do.

And again, in the system I advocate, an improvement on both the current models, even if you did want to earn CoF armor, you could still run Fractals, and either turn on the CoF PvE track, allowing your Fractal performance to increment it a bit, or you could collect Fractal Relics and turn them in for CoF tokens at a lossy exchange rate, and which neither would be quite as efficient towards your intended reward as actually running CoF, it would still be a reasonable way of advancing that goal while still being able to game with your friends.

basically to your understanding the game exists to give out rewards, whereas to us the rewards exist to enhance gameplay.

No, to me, the two should be kept distinct from each other. The gameplay exists to be good gameplay, and should stand up as good gameplay even without rewards, and the rewards should eb good rewards, and stand up as rewards regardless of the gameplay attached to them. The player should be able to mix and match which gameplay activities in which they wish to engage, to any rewards that interest them.

Think of it like a well balanced arcade. You like skeeball? Play skeelball. You like the min-basketball? Play mini-basketball. They all give out tickets, and you can buy whatever you like with those tickets from the horribly overpriced store.

Also even with multiple paths there will still be some things that are not rewarded. What if you dont want to do challenging content AND you dont want to kill 2 bit enemies 1000000 times?

I’m not sure what your point is with this bit. Are you saying that there will be some activities that don’t get rewarded? Of course. I’m not trying to change that. I’m just saying that any systems that should be rewarded, pretty much the systems that are already rewarded, should be rewarded in a more flexible manner, so that being greatly rewarded by one type of content is equivalent to being greatly rewarded in another, and you don’t have to choose which content you want to do based on which reward you’re aiming for.

“If you spent as much time working on [some task] as
you spend complaining about it on the forums, you’d be
done by now.”